Some thoughts on QB going forward based on Schoen's comments

they keep DeVito and go with 3 QBs on the 53 man next year if they draft (or trade) for a young QB. Jones gone after '24 unless some huge turnaround, and DeVito is the backup in '25

that is what makes the most economic sense and i think there are enough qbs in this draft they will find someone they like.

it may be an obvious name they can get with their top 5-10 pick.

or it may be a trade up into the 20's from the second round.

too early to tell other than their reducing odds at picking 1st/2nd, but this is a good qb draft so i would bet on them finding a dance partner.

the justin fields type move doesnt make much sense to me. whoever gets him is going to pay the price of a starter. the timelines with him and jones are too duplicative. i also dont see much logic in wasting a chunk of the cap on another limited backup Tyrod.

In comment 16304775 Eric on Li said:

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that is what makes the most economic sense and i think there are enough qbs in this draft they will find someone they like. it may be an obvious name they can get with their top 5-10 pick. or it may be a trade up into the 20's from the second round. too early to tell other than their reducing odds at picking 1st/2nd, but this is a good qb draft so i would bet on them finding a dance partner. the justin fields type move doesnt make much sense to me. whoever gets him is going to pay the price of a starter. the timelines with him and jones are too duplicative. i also dont see much logic in wasting a chunk of the cap on another limited backup Tyrod.

This is probably correct. The first round pick gives them the 5th year option.

What I don't see is a massive haul to get from 8th to the top 2 picks.

I think the QB depth chart is:

Jones
Vet FA (see list of possibilities below)
DeVito

The vet holds down the fort to start the season until Daniel returns.

That's the plan that makes sense to a group that paid Jones and could be out on their asses if they repeat 2023 and start 1-5 or something like that.
2024 FA QBs - ( New Window )

In comment 16304782 Sean said:

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In comment 16304775 Eric on Li said: Quote: that is what makes the most economic sense and i think there are enough qbs in this draft they will find someone they like. it may be an obvious name they can get with their top 5-10 pick. or it may be a trade up into the 20's from the second round. too early to tell other than their reducing odds at picking 1st/2nd, but this is a good qb draft so i would bet on them finding a dance partner. the justin fields type move doesnt make much sense to me. whoever gets him is going to pay the price of a starter. the timelines with him and jones are too duplicative. i also dont see much logic in wasting a chunk of the cap on another limited backup Tyrod. This is probably correct. The first round pick gives them the 5th year option. What I don't see is a massive haul to get from 8th to the top 2 picks.

that type of trade is rare - last year it happened, i guess jets moved up for darnold to #3 so maybe you could count that, same with trey lance.

we know in 2020 nobody was willing to trade up for either of tua or herbert.

so i think your prediction is a pretty safe one because whether the giants want it or not that type of deal is rarely there. if maye/caleb are real deal they are unlikely to be for sale. as good as the return was the bears probably made a mistake giving up the chance to draft bryce or stroud.

In comment 16304782 Sean said:

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In comment 16304775 Eric on Li said: Quote: that is what makes the most economic sense and i think there are enough qbs in this draft they will find someone they like. it may be an obvious name they can get with their top 5-10 pick. or it may be a trade up into the 20's from the second round. too early to tell other than their reducing odds at picking 1st/2nd, but this is a good qb draft so i would bet on them finding a dance partner. the justin fields type move doesnt make much sense to me. whoever gets him is going to pay the price of a starter. the timelines with him and jones are too duplicative. i also dont see much logic in wasting a chunk of the cap on another limited backup Tyrod. This is probably correct. The first round pick gives them the 5th year option. What I don't see is a massive haul to get from 8th to the top 2 picks.

I don't either. What everyone seeems to be losing site of is there can conceivably be 5 or 6 possible 1st rd QB selections. Have to see how it all plays out but it's very possible a good QB can align when Giants are on the clock with 1st rd pick.

In comment 16304784 Go Terps said:

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I think the QB depth chart is: Jones Vet FA (see list of possibilities below) DeVito The vet holds down the fort to start the season until Daniel returns. That's the plan that makes sense to a group that paid Jones and could be out on their asses if they repeat 2023 and start 1-5 or something like that. 2024 FA QBs - ( New Window )

So, kick the can down the road until 2026 and then draft a QB then? I doubt they'll be there in 2026 with that approach.

I get what you're saying, the timeline doesn't add up. But, forcing Jones to work while ignoring QB in the draft is very risky.

The wildcard here is if they like DeVito. Daboll seems to value some juice in the position and he's super cheap. Could they take their Jones medicine while playing DeVito and trying to manage wins? Make the big splash when the cap lines up? They could, but will they still be employed?

In comment 16304784 Go Terps said:

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I think the QB depth chart is: Jones Vet FA (see list of possibilities below) DeVito The vet holds down the fort to start the season until Daniel returns. That's the plan that makes sense to a group that paid Jones and could be out on their asses if they repeat 2023 and start 1-5 or something like that. 2024 FA QBs - ( New Window )

I'd bet that right along with you. As of now anyway.

for the sake of argument let's suspend all cap implication talk and assume this could work, financially. The Giants finish 2023 with a 6-11 record. They are picking somewhere in the 8-12 range, give or take 1-2 slots. It's February/March of 2024. The Cardinals call NYG and offer Kyler Murray and ask for Daniel Jones (money purposes) and our first round pick. Maybe we can haggle them down to a 2nd and future 2nd or additional mid round picks in 24, something like that. Maybe we can even offer them a 2025 FIRST and not give up the 24 first rounder.

Why it works for Arizona? They want to move on from Murray and take a rookie QB in 24 and since they will likely be picking top 5, have their sights set on 2 QBs--one of which should be at 5. They get their guy, move on from Murray but get to add a stop gap vet not making insane money for longer than 2 years.

It only works for NYG if they love Murray, obviously.

***This trade would have to be orchestrated on draft day to ensure the Cards can in fact draft their guy. IF their QB is there, the trade goes through.

Do you bite? Do you counter offer? Or do you hang up the phone and say DJM is an asshole for even thinking about adding Murray...

In comment 16304784 Go Terps said:

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I think the QB depth chart is: Jones Vet FA (see list of possibilities below) DeVito The vet holds down the fort to start the season until Daniel returns. That's the plan that makes sense to a group that paid Jones and could be out on their asses if they repeat 2023 and start 1-5 or something like that. 2024 FA QBs - ( New Window )

Because the Giants treat GMs and HCs differently, I wouldn’t set the Schoen and Daboll objectives as equivalent.

Daboll cannot go into 2024 with Jones and some retread as his QB options. The smart play for him is to get a talented 1st rd QB that he can mold into a very good player. That will earn him some extra time.

Schoen however could pass entirely on a QB this upcoming draft with the knowledge that he is highly likely to be the GM in 2025.

also, why would we sign a vet to sit behind Jones? we should be looking to upgrade at this point. Jones was a net negative contributor this year (and I'm a Jones supporter).

let alone beyond that. Second of all, this is about the most troubling news. Citing 2018? There really wasn't a single QB in that draft without significant concerns going into the draft. None of those guys (pre-draft, not revisionist history) would be as high as the 4th or 5th best in this draft, and even that would be pushing it.

Well said. I don't view Schoen and Daboll as a package deal. Daboll has more pressure on him to win and I find it hard to believe he will be content with that QB room unless he likes DeVito that much which I doubt.

There may be a benefit (for Schoen and Daboll) to keeping Jones around. The Giants' have a scapegoat culture with this ownership. Jones has been here longer than they have. And as the Athletic recently revealed in their survey, Schoen and Daboll have much more rope with the fans than Jones does.

If ownership leaned on Schoen to pay Jones (and we know God damned well they did), Daniel lines up as the scapegoat after 2024 with a more palatable $23M wasted.

but I think he's got a ton of potential and he's produced on an elite or close to elite level when things are right. I could get behind this move. Cards scored 410 pts in 2020 and 449 pts in 2021. Murray flat out gets it done and it's not like he's been blessed with extremely awesome conditions in Zona, even on their best day. You would be buying relatively low and you're getting a ready made NFL QB with a skillset to die for and a coaching staff that knows how to coach up QBs.

Maybe I am nuts....but I think the cards might do it.

In comment 16304825 Go Terps said:

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There may be a benefit (for Schoen and Daboll) to keeping Jones around. The Giants' have a scapegoat culture with this ownership. Jones has been here longer than they have. And as the Athletic recently revealed in their survey, Schoen and Daboll have much more rope with the fans than Jones does. If ownership leaned on Schoen to pay Jones (and we know God damned well they did), Daniel lines up as the scapegoat after 2024 with a more palatable $23M wasted.

cmon man...so now you're going to a place that believes this staff will keep Jones just so they have a fall guy?????


Do you really believe this stuff? Why even bother being a fan? You do know that if they kept Jones and shit fell apart this whole regime is fucking toast by 2025 at the latest. You know that right?

ignore my last post, terps, I can't even go there. Don't want to waste your time.

You can examine/debate/respond to the murray trade proposal as at least that is kind of fun.

play out the scenario purely from Schoen’s standpoint.

Murray’s base salaries through 2027 guarantee in the prior league year, so acquiring him means essentially a base salary commitment for the next 2 years plus some workout bonus stuff. On the Jones side, the acquiring team is committing one year to him and then they can part ways with no muss. The financial side is manageable.

I lean towards the trade for Justin Fields contingency option. I think that could be a low risk high reward acquisition. Of course, depends on the Bears decision on his 5th year option and whether to draft a QB.

Mayfield is probably the best of the bunch, and that's not saying much.

I don't want to start a rookie down $47M in cap space. I need wins this year. I'm not sure a rookie resets the clock for Daboll.

This is immensely frustrating. If they had just had the discipline to stick with the plan they put into place by signing Taylor and not picking up Jones's option, none of this would be an issue. The Jones contract rivals the Barkley pick for stupidest decision in a decade of stupid decisions.

the Barkley pick. It’s hemming in the decision making in a key upcoming draft.

Wow, and you guys think the Daniel Jones supportes are crazy. Justin Fields is not a QB, period. He is an athlete. He should moved to WC or kick returner.

In comment 16304775 Eric on Li said:

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that is what makes the most economic sense and i think there are enough qbs in this draft they will find someone they like. it may be an obvious name they can get with their top 5-10 pick. or it may be a trade up into the 20's from the second round. too early to tell other than their reducing odds at picking 1st/2nd, but this is a good qb draft so i would bet on them finding a dance partner. the justin fields type move doesnt make much sense to me. whoever gets him is going to pay the price of a starter. the timelines with him and jones are too duplicative. i also dont see much logic in wasting a chunk of the cap on another limited backup Tyrod.

What does economic sense matter if they draft a QB in the first who plays like Wilson, Lance, Fields or Jones? Do you think any of those players, or Kenny Pickett, will have their 5th year options enacted?

Really? The guy that got in arguments with many teammates and coaches and cannot throw from the pocket? Why the hell would we do that?

In comment 16304821 Matt M. said:

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let alone beyond that. Second of all, this is about the most troubling news. Citing 2018? There really wasn't a single QB in that draft without significant concerns going into the draft. None of those guys (pre-draft, not revisionist history) would be as high as the 4th or 5th best in this draft, and even that would be pushing it.

Not remotely true. The 2018 draft class was very highly regarded. Just one of many cites for that:

Quote:

Year of the QB: Top 5 QB classes of all-time There's a lot of excitement surrounding the talented college QBs suiting up this fall. In fact, some are calling 2017 "The Year of the QB". Will we see at least six signal-callers picked in the first two rounds of the 2018 NFL Draft? Now, we don't know when these underclassmen will decide to enter the draft, but young QBs like Sam Darnold (USC), Josh Allen (Wyoming), and Lamar Jackson (Louisville) showed great promise in 2016. Josh Rosen (UCLA) struggled a bit in his sophomore campaign, but his talent is undeniable.

Josh Allen went to the 2018 combine and set the all-time velocity record (in addition to being an all-time QB running threat). There's nobody in the upcoming class who strikes me the same way.

If Lamar Jackson were in the 2024 class, he'd be talked about for #1 overall, just as Jayden Daniels is. And LJ went at the end of 2018 round 1.

nfl.com - ( New Window )

In comment 16304849 Go Terps said:

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I don't want to start a rookie down $47M in cap space. I need wins this year. I'm not sure a rookie resets the clock for Daboll. This is immensely frustrating. If they had just had the discipline to stick with the plan they put into place by signing Taylor and not picking up Jones's option, none of this would be an issue. The Jones contract rivals the Barkley pick for stupidest decision in a decade of stupid decisions.

Daboll threw an iPad down in disgust after the Jones pick 6 against Seattle. You think Daboll feels Jones gives him the best chance to win?

Got to look at it from Schoen's view. If he and Daboll are aligned, the focus will be on winning games in 2024. They sunk big money into Jones and it would be a dangerous pivot to go to ownership this Winter and tell them it's time to burn draft capital to trade up for a QB, etc.

If NYG signs a vet #2, that's a potentially significant signal about their view on the premium draft prospects. Whether their target will be available to them, or how they may prefer to not spend to trade up for one in the first round. Perhaps QB will be in play in the 2nd round, or a trade back into the low 1st round when the cap investment is much smaller, etc.

Let’s review some of the names.

Joe's job is to fill time and say nothing, and he didn't.

In comment 16304883 cosmicj said:

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Let’s review some of the names.

Tyrod Taylor.

In comment 16304876 Sean said:

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In comment 16304849 Go Terps said: Quote: I don't want to start a rookie down $47M in cap space. I need wins this year. I'm not sure a rookie resets the clock for Daboll. This is immensely frustrating. If they had just had the discipline to stick with the plan they put into place by signing Taylor and not picking up Jones's option, none of this would be an issue. The Jones contract rivals the Barkley pick for stupidest decision in a decade of stupid decisions. Daboll threw an iPad down in disgust after the Jones pick 6 against Seattle. You think Daboll feels Jones gives him the best chance to win?

I think Daboll would feel more comfortable with the devil he knows than the devil he doesn't, and he also can hope Jones gets the axe instead of him if 2024 goes bad. He also will probably feel safer with a vet to start the season.

This is a fucking mess.

That Schoen’s responses revealed anything other than the fact he is not saying “if we need a QB we are set on drafting him.” If you indicate you are only interested in drafting one, and you are picking 8-12, any team you try to trade up with knows you are desperate to make the deal. He has to say these things so people think there are a lot of options on the table, even if there aren’t.

The advantage to drafting a guy as opposed to someone like Fields is the 5th year option and affordability. For that reason I am hoping they go the draft route, even if that means staying put at say 10 or even trading back into the first for someone they like who suddenly becomes attainable.

I also think the trait they need to value over everything else is the ability to make the right reads and process what he sees. If you have that you can make a lot of guys with accuracy or arm strength challenges serviceable. It is much harder to work around the mental part of the game because it impacts everything else.

In comment 16304815 djm said:

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for the sake of argument let's suspend all cap implication talk and assume this could work, financially. The Giants finish 2023 with a 6-11 record. They are picking somewhere in the 8-12 range, give or take 1-2 slots. It's February/March of 2024. The Cardinals call NYG and offer Kyler Murray and ask for Daniel Jones (money purposes) and our first round pick. Maybe we can haggle them down to a 2nd and future 2nd or additional mid round picks in 24, something like that. Maybe we can even offer them a 2025 FIRST and not give up the 24 first rounder. Why it works for Arizona? They want to move on from Murray and take a rookie QB in 24 and since they will likely be picking top 5, have their sights set on 2 QBs--one of which should be at 5. They get their guy, move on from Murray but get to add a stop gap vet not making insane money for longer than 2 years. It only works for NYG if they love Murray, obviously. ***This trade would have to be orchestrated on draft day to ensure the Cards can in fact draft their guy. IF their QB is there, the trade goes through. Do you bite? Do you counter offer? Or do you hang up the phone and say DJM is an asshole for even thinking about adding Murray...

You want to trade for a guy who needed to be told to study film more? I could maybe see it if he were coming at a huge salary discount but his deal is actually worse than DJ’s.

Murray is a guy I want nothing to do with for more reasons than just the film stuff and his salary and for me this trade would sour me entirely on Shoen being a good GM.

Daboll figures to be trying to shrink any and every learning curve possible.

In comment 16304883 cosmicj said:

Quote:

Let’s review some of the names.

I posted a link to the 2024 FA QBs above. Likely names include:

Tannehill
Brissett
Mariota
Darnold
Mayfield
Minshew
Bridgewater
Dobbs

Please know I'm shaking my head as I've been typing these posts out. I'm not proposing any of this as what I would do.

I think this is all a sick fucking joke.

.

It's merely acknowledging Schoen has to approach this in a way to satisfy his bosses and 2024 outlook moreso than the fans thinking the long play.

In comment 16304784 Go Terps said:

Quote:

I think the QB depth chart is: Jones Vet FA (see list of possibilities below) DeVito The vet holds down the fort to start the season until Daniel returns. That's the plan that makes sense to a group that paid Jones and could be out on their asses if they repeat 2023 and start 1-5 or something like that. 2024 FA QBs - ( New Window )

I hope they have a better plan than this (as I'm sure you do). First, any backup QB worth his salt like Brisette will be too expensive considering the team's cap constraints with Jones' $47 million hit.

Second, there's tons of value at QB in the 2024 draft that they need to take advantage of. There's a chance that guys like Daniels, McCarthy, and Penix would be top picks in 2025 if they were eligible. The Giants have to take a guy now.

I can't watch another season of Daniel Jones trying to execute a full playbook

They can't move off him. Do they move off DeVito? I doubt it.

So, I get it that there is only one QB spot open and Schoen/Daboll may go for the competent vet.

The wins last year were more costly than any win down the stretch this year.

Schoen also seems very aware of the salary cap and taking advantage of a rookie QB's contract window.

Than is neccessary. I'm watching what Daboll is doing with Tommy DeVito and imagining what he can do with a 'consolation' pick like Bo Nix, a guy who actually has elite abilities in short-to-intermediate passing.

They aren't going to make Jones the unquestioned starter. They tried opening up the offense for him this past season and it was a disaster. What are their options for him? Run the 2022 offense after an ACL and neck injury?

If I were Mara I'd either fire both Schoen and Daboll or reset the clock on both of them, pretending '22 and '23 never happened.

My instruction to them (or their replacements) would be to find a way to absorb whatever pain necessary to get Jones off the roster immediately, and to restock the QB room this offseason come hell or high water. Every asset is tradeable, up to and including Thibodeaux.

This draft is stacked with quarterbacks. The Giants have no quarterbacks. Enough already.

In comment 16304897 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16304883 cosmicj said: Quote: Let’s review some of the names. I posted a link to the 2024 FA QBs above. Likely names include: Tannehill Brissett Mariota Darnold Mayfield Minshew Bridgewater Dobbs Please know I'm shaking my head as I've been typing these posts out. I'm not proposing any of this as what I would do. I think this is all a sick fucking joke.

I think this is right, which is why I've been advocating trading back or out of our first this year to collect assets for next season's draft as insurance for the inevitable shitty year when (hopefully) they finally move on from Jones.

The thought of giving another year to Jones is just nauseating.

In comment 16304868 robbieballs2003 said:

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Really? The guy that got in arguments with many teammates and coaches and cannot throw from the pocket? Why the hell would we do that?

Joe Schoen is not going to go for Kyler Murray. He doesn't fit the "building a culture" thing. He doesn't fit it in Arizona, he'd fit it even less in New York.

In comment 16304919 Go Terps said:

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If I were Mara I'd either fire both Schoen and Daboll or reset the clock on both of them, pretending '22 and '23 never happened. My instruction to them (or their replacements) would be to find a way to absorb whatever pain necessary to get Jones off the roster immediately, and to restock the QB room this offseason come hell or high water. Every asset is tradeable, up to and including Thibodeaux. This draft is stacked with quarterbacks. The Giants have no quarterbacks. Enough already.

I believe they'll get a reset and they'll take a QB in the first two rounds. There is some precedent Schoen and Daboll can point to: The Eagles ditching Wentz after giving him a huge contract, and the 49ers going with Purdy after a double-whammy of trading up for Lance and paying Jimmy G $25 mil.

in Schoen anymore is beyond me.

Unless he drafts a QB in the lottery and cuts the cord with Jones heading into 2024, his plan is going to be some patchwork nonsense with keeping Jones and taking a flyer on a long-shot QB prospect in 2024.

Guy blew it with Jones.

Daboll is much better at his job than Schoen. I'm convinced he is a legit HC in the NFL and knows how to lead.

In comment 16304933 bw in dc said:

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in Schoen anymore is beyond me. Unless he drafts a QB in the lottery and cuts the cord with Jones heading into 2024, his plan is going to be some patchwork nonsense with keeping Jones and taking a flyer on a long-shot QB prospect in 2024. Guy blew it with Jones. Daboll is much better at his job than Schoen. I'm convinced he is a legit HC in the NFL and knows how to lead.

I can't dispute any of this. I've been impressed with Daboll too. The Jones contract has complicated everything.

Amazing that Schoen got no questions on the contract.

No one asked Joe about the contract? Wow. I missed that. That’s a bad job from reporters.

In comment 16304931 Lambuth_Special said:

Quote:

In comment 16304919 Go Terps said: Quote: If I were Mara I'd either fire both Schoen and Daboll or reset the clock on both of them, pretending '22 and '23 never happened. My instruction to them (or their replacements) would be to find a way to absorb whatever pain necessary to get Jones off the roster immediately, and to restock the QB room this offseason come hell or high water. Every asset is tradeable, up to and including Thibodeaux. This draft is stacked with quarterbacks. The Giants have no quarterbacks. Enough already. I believe they'll get a reset and they'll take a QB in the first two rounds. There is some precedent Schoen and Daboll can point to: The Eagles ditching Wentz after giving him a huge contract, and the 49ers going with Purdy after a double-whammy of trading up for Lance and paying Jimmy G $25 mil.

My numbers on Jimmy G were all wrong. Nevertheless, trading up to get Lance and then giving up after two games is pretty bad.

In comment 16304919 Go Terps said:

Quote:

If I were Mara I'd either fire both Schoen and Daboll or reset the clock on both of them, pretending '22 and '23 never happened.

I'd keep Daboll, but I would endorse this idea IF the new GM would do everything possible to jettison Jones five minutes into the job and go big game hunting for Daniels, etc.

People here are drawing conclusions from the presser that just aren’t there. I didn’t interpret his comments as committing to Jones, I interpreted them as not broadcasting to the world they’re looking for an upgrade in the draft.

In comment 16304836 cosmicj said:

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play out the scenario purely from Schoen’s standpoint. Murray’s base salaries through 2027 guarantee in the prior league year, so acquiring him means essentially a base salary commitment for the next 2 years plus some workout bonus stuff. On the Jones side, the acquiring team is committing one year to him and then they can part ways with no muss. The financial side is manageable. I lean towards the trade for Justin Fields contingency option. I think that could be a low risk high reward acquisition. Of course, depends on the Bears decision on his 5th year option and whether to draft a QB.

Yea I hear you, I am not a big fields guy at all. Love his running ability, who doesn't, but I will pass on Fields. I like Murray and always have.

In comment 16304946 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 16304919 Go Terps said: Quote: If I were Mara I'd either fire both Schoen and Daboll or reset the clock on both of them, pretending '22 and '23 never happened. I'd keep Daboll, but I would endorse this idea IF the new GM would do everything possible to jettison Jones five minutes into the job and go big game hunting for Daniels, etc.

Mara is not firing a GM for believing in Jones, and replacing him with a new GM tasked with getting rid of Jones. Telling Mara Jones is part of the problem is the fastest way to find yourself being escorted out of 1925 Giants Way without even a souvenir pen.

Agreed. This is a very good class, potentially deep class, and the opportunities will be there for Schoen to get a quarterback. Personally, those upset the Giants aren't in position to land Caleb is somewhat silly. To be honest, I think he's a bad fit for NY. Maye and Daniels would be perfect, and I wouldn't necessarily oppose McCarthy if he declares or Nix.

They aren't going into the 2024 season with another Tyrod situation.

In comment 16304868 robbieballs2003 said:

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Really? The guy that got in arguments with many teammates and coaches and cannot throw from the pocket? Why the hell would we do that?

We have seen legendary players argue with coaches and players before. We saw Simms yell at Parcells on live TV during a game so I can tolerate some of that stuff.

Saying Murray can't throw from the pocket isn't fair at all. At the very least it's an exaggeration. Like I said the guy scores 400+ per season when things are right. HE's doing something right.

You don't like him that's fine. Was simply making convo. We can always talk about Daniel Jones conspiracy theories or What Schoen said in PC. Carry on.

It just won't be the costly trade up but a back half of the first round imo.

None of us know though. We just have to wait 5 months.

In comment 16304951 WillVAB said:

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People here are drawing conclusions from the presser that just aren’t there. I didn’t interpret his comments as committing to Jones, I interpreted them as not broadcasting to the world they’re looking for an upgrade in the draft.

It's not about committing to Jones, it's about extent he'll go to begin moving on from him.

The $69 mill cap hit to get rid off Jones next year, but I don’t think it’s possible anymore as he is hurt and can’t pass a physical.

In comment 16304951 WillVAB said:

Quote:

People here are drawing conclusions from the presser that just aren’t there. I didn’t interpret his comments as committing to Jones, I interpreted them as not broadcasting to the world they’re looking for an upgrade in the draft.

Exactly. I am not sure why we keep hanging on every word that these guys say on press conferences. They intentionally don’t say anything useful.

In comment 16304931 Lambuth_Special said:

Quote:

In comment 16304919 Go Terps said: Quote: If I were Mara I'd either fire both Schoen and Daboll or reset the clock on both of them, pretending '22 and '23 never happened. My instruction to them (or their replacements) would be to find a way to absorb whatever pain necessary to get Jones off the roster immediately, and to restock the QB room this offseason come hell or high water. Every asset is tradeable, up to and including Thibodeaux. This draft is stacked with quarterbacks. The Giants have no quarterbacks. Enough already. I believe they'll get a reset and they'll take a QB in the first two rounds. There is some precedent Schoen and Daboll can point to: The Eagles ditching Wentz after giving him a huge contract, and the 49ers going with Purdy after a double-whammy of trading up for Lance and paying Jimmy G $25 mil.

The Jaguars jettisoned Bortles after he face-planted following a contract extension. Unfortunately it took 2 more years after that to get Trevor Lawrence.

In comment 16304964 Mike from Ohio said:

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Mara is not firing a GM for believing in Jones, and replacing him with a new GM tasked with getting rid of Jones. Telling Mara Jones is part of the problem is the fastest way to find yourself being escorted out of 1925 Giants Way without even a souvenir pen.

Unfortunately, you are 100% correct.

Still, it's the holiday season. So let me dream...

In comment 16305000 Sean said:

Quote:

Quote: Art Stapleton @art_stapleton There are questions with every college prospect, no matter the position. When you see what current Giants staff has done with Tommy DeVito, an undrafted rookie, in such a short time, the confidence should be in what they are showing in terms of evaluation and development. Because of this, Giants should get a QB every year until they hit on one, whether that's Round 1 to UDFA or free agent vet. That's where the trust should be at the position for this regime.

I believe Art reflects where the org is going. We aren't likely to get Maye or Caleb, but we'll get a solid QB prospect and I'm psyched to see what Daboll can do with them.

In comment 16304860 rnargi said:

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In comment 16304775 Eric on Li said: Quote: that is what makes the most economic sense and i think there are enough qbs in this draft they will find someone they like. it may be an obvious name they can get with their top 5-10 pick. or it may be a trade up into the 20's from the second round. too early to tell other than their reducing odds at picking 1st/2nd, but this is a good qb draft so i would bet on them finding a dance partner. the justin fields type move doesnt make much sense to me. whoever gets him is going to pay the price of a starter. the timelines with him and jones are too duplicative. i also dont see much logic in wasting a chunk of the cap on another limited backup Tyrod. What does economic sense matter if they draft a QB in the first who plays like Wilson, Lance, Fields or Jones? Do you think any of those players, or Kenny Pickett, will have their 5th year options enacted?

What does economic sense matter?

How about if Jones isn't ready before October because he's a guy that takes longer for whatever reason in his rehab?

Or suffers a setback?

Both are possibilities Schoen alluded to as reasons for needing to add a QB in the room.

So investing resources in the QB position is already a given from the horses mouth. The question is what is the best investment? If there is a player in the draft they like, and this draft appears a strong qb class, economically speaking that would unquestionably be the best way to go when even the Tyrod Taylor's of the world aren't cheap as FA. the worst case scenario of it being a wasted pick because jones comes back and plays well and stays healthy enough that he's here another 5+ years isn't a bad scenario.

Jones got paid because he was our best option and he was paid for what he did in 22. He was paid because he was a FA at the right time. Paid because he was the best QB available for the Giants. GMS simply don't let go their best QB when they are FAs. The last time a team did that was Washington with Cousins and look how that turned out. If it was 2003, Jones' contract would still be top 10ish but would look a lot more acceptable but inflation and all that. Actually nah, this place would still shit sideways because nothing gets people nuts more than cap stuff.

No time machines. No crystal balls. Jones had a bad year the Giants didn't see coming, not to this degree. That doesn't mean the staff is incompetent. Doesn't mean if Jones was playing slightly better right now and NYG saw a QB in April they don't take him then either. DJ could be OK this season and NYG could still be taking a QB in April. Teams do this. KC did it. This same franchise did it in 04!


Not everything has to be so black and white.

In comment 16304974 JonC said:

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In comment 16304951 WillVAB said: Quote: People here are drawing conclusions from the presser that just aren’t there. I didn’t interpret his comments as committing to Jones, I interpreted them as not broadcasting to the world they’re looking for an upgrade in the draft. It's not about committing to Jones, it's about extent he'll go to begin moving on from him.

But, yes of course he's going to reveal much if anything. Some of us are extrapolating based on the pivot he'd have to sell to ownership to secure a premium QB prospect and the cap allocations, etc.

Schoen could go QB in the 2nd round, or try to trade back up into the 1st, to keep the costs in check.

In comment 16305000 Sean said:

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Quote: Art Stapleton @art_stapleton There are questions with every college prospect, no matter the position. When you see what current Giants staff has done with Tommy DeVito, an undrafted rookie, in such a short time, the confidence should be in what they are showing in terms of evaluation and development. Because of this, Giants should get a QB every year until they hit on one, whether that's Round 1 to UDFA or free agent vet. That's where the trust should be at the position for this regime.

Just an important caveat to the bold. Even if you find the right QB, you should continue to draft a QB every year somewhere in the draft.

But it is worth pointing out that DeVito performing competently is indeed a real credit to this coaching staff. He looks a helluva lot more poised than the $160M man ahead of him on the depth chart.

In comment 16305022 JonC said:

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In comment 16304974 JonC said: Quote: In comment 16304951 WillVAB said: Quote: People here are drawing conclusions from the presser that just aren’t there. I didn’t interpret his comments as committing to Jones, I interpreted them as not broadcasting to the world they’re looking for an upgrade in the draft. It's not about committing to Jones, it's about extent he'll go to begin moving on from him. But, yes of course he's going to reveal much if anything. Some of us are extrapolating based on the pivot he'd have to sell to ownership to secure a premium QB prospect and the cap allocations, etc. Schoen could go QB in the 2nd round, or try to trade back up into the 1st, to keep the costs in check.

... NOT going to reveal much ...

I think that's what they'll do. A later round first or high second round QB. Hopefully Daboll can develop him while holding onto all of their future draft capital.

I wouldn't go down the road that the Panthers have.

I agree.

I agree with Art.

Notice his beginning comments. "See it and let it rip."
Link - ( New Window )

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A: There’s always risk. Look at the past however many years of top 10 quarterbacks. I just went through the 2018 Draft and how many of those guys are starters, how many are with different teams? Some are out of the league that were taken in the first round from that draft. It’s not a position you can just evaluate on film, I don’t believe. You’ve got to get with these kids, you’ve got to meet with them, you’ve got to get around them, you’ve got to put them on the board. Can they learn? Can they process information? You’ve got to talk to the people, especially in this market. Bringing a quarterback into this market, I mean, it’s not for everybody. Not everybody can handle it. But again, it could be a free agent, whatever, we’re going to have to address it at some point. We have a UFA here that we could always sign back. There’re different ways that we could address the position, but there’s no guarantees, as of right now, that Daniel will be ready Week 1. So, that’s how you’ve got to approach it. Who can we bring in that can maybe help us win a couple of games while Daniel gets healthy, or maybe Daniel will be ready Week 1. There’re just some unknowns right now, and we’ll know as we get closer to free agency where he is in his rehab and how we need to approach the offseason.

if there is a guy in the draft available to them who checks the boxes in bold, they will take him.

january/february they will get the senior bowl and the combine. they will know if there's anyone they like along with where jones is in his rehab with the halfway point hitting around when FA opens.

whether or not they sign a veteran backup before the draft will be pretty telling. or at least the guaranteed $ in their contract will be.

as much as people want to intuit that they are done with jones, or definitely doing one thing or another, there is a dynamic 6 month+ roster building process yet to unfold.

my bet is they end up drafting someone in the first round who checks those boxes to get a full 5 years of control, though not necessarily with their highest selection.

In comment 16305035 Sean said:

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Notice his beginning comments. "See it and let it rip." Link - ( New Window )

Hes been saying this since week 1 of 2022.

In comment 16305020 djm said:

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Jones got paid because he was our best option and he was paid for what he did in 22. He was paid because he was a FA at the right time. Paid because he was the best QB available for the Giants. GMS simply don't let go their best QB when they are FAs. The last time a team did that was Washington with Cousins and look how that turned out. If it was 2003, Jones' contract would still be top 10ish but would look a lot more acceptable but inflation and all that. Actually nah, this place would still shit sideways because nothing gets people nuts more than cap stuff. No time machines. No crystal balls. Jones had a bad year the Giants didn't see coming, not to this degree. That doesn't mean the staff is incompetent. Doesn't mean if Jones was playing slightly better right now and NYG saw a QB in April they don't take him then either. DJ could be OK this season and NYG could still be taking a QB in April. Teams do this. KC did it. This same franchise did it in 04! Not everything has to be so black and white.

What he was paid was too much no matter how you slice it. He had a good, not special 2022 season. He was paid like a top 10 or better QB.

It may not be early round 1, but they would be foolish to double down on Jones again. And Jones' health situation requires it, regardless. Could it be Taylor (extended a year or similar veteran), Jones, and a rookie? Sure. But the future of the position and implications to the franchise is too important to bet the house on Jones. They've already laid down a bunch of chips on his hand already and it burned them. I would be shocked if they doubled down on that hand again.

presents a pivot point everyone should be able to rally behind, including ownership.

The Raiders made a mistake with Garoppolo.

The Panthers may have made a mistake with Young.

It's so tough getting QB right.

In comment 16305081 Sean said:

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The Raiders made a mistake with Garoppolo. The Panthers may have made a mistake with Young. It's so tough getting QB right.

The mistake the saints have made is assuming their window was still open.

In comment 16304933 bw in dc said:

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in Schoen anymore is beyond me. Unless he drafts a QB in the lottery and cuts the cord with Jones heading into 2024, his plan is going to be some patchwork nonsense with keeping Jones and taking a flyer on a long-shot QB prospect in 2024. Guy blew it with Jones. Daboll is much better at his job than Schoen. I'm convinced he is a legit HC in the NFL and knows how to lead.

Today's presser convinces me now that you have been right about Schoen all along. The contract he gave to DJ was easily the worst decision in this franchise's history. I have believed it was driven by Mara, but after listening to Schoen today, I now believe that it was Schoen who actually drove the DJ decision as you have correctly stated for months now. Mara was likely just blissfully along for the ride given his love for DJ. Was it a passive aggressive masterpiece by Mara? Perhaps. But Schoen deserves the primary blame on this, not Mara.

As a result, it is very hard to take what Schoen says seriously now. Yes, from a PR perspective, he said the appropriate things today. But a galactically stupid decision at the quarterback position requires an immediate pivot to restore credibility/confidence and I just don't see him doing so. Like Joe Douglas with Zach Wilson, I see Schoen now trying to double down on the stupidity and running back DJ one more time next year.

So he will add a late first round or day two 2024 draft quarterback selection to join DeVito in the quarterback room and focus primarily on adding offensive weapons/protection in the draft and free agency to attempt to justify the inconceivable notion that at the height of a rebuilding process, nearly twenty percent of the cap next year is tied to a backup level quarterback talent. How can a man who did this possibly be trusted ever again? A quick pivot to a better future, ala John Lynch trading Trey Lance and moving on to Brock Purdy or Howie Roseman trading Carson Wentz and moving on to Jalen Hurts, is the only possible way.

We will instead likely be stuck with this "patchwork nonsense" that you aptly describe. Can it be successful? Absolutely not. Can Schoen survive it? I doubt it. If the team doesn't draft a "Stroud or Purdy" level of quality quarterback in April and DJ is DJ again next year, meaning losing games with dreadful quarterback play, all eyes from both the players and the fans will turn to Mara and expect a major change.

Daboll is safe in my opinion. Getting DeVito to play as well as or better than DJ did last year tells me all I need to know about Daboll's capacity to elevate quarterback talent to win in the NFL. And this is no easy feat as we learned today re Frank Reich. Daboll's unique talent in this regard is absolutely the necessary condition we need in a head coach going forward. So if/when we finally get the right quarterback in the building, I am convinced Daboll will elevate him to the zenith of his ceiling and effectively scheme the position to win meaningful games. Knowing that we already have that in the building is actually a huge advantage for this franchise.

So the fall guy instead will be Schoen. If your thesis is correct and 2024 is yet another clown show season, ala 2021 and 2023, Schoen will be gone before the sun rises on New Year's day 2025.

If Jayden Daniels is on the board and the Giants take another position instead all because they gave Jones a big contract. That is a decision that explains why his franchise has been an embarrassment for 10 years. They already passed on Justin Herbert and Tua because of Jones I pray that they don’t make the same mistake by passing on Maye and/or Daniels.

In comment 16305072 JonC said:

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presents a pivot point everyone should be able to rally behind, including ownership.

The Vacchiano trial balloon about NYG still believing in Jones, and how they wouldn't necessarily take a QB even if they had a top 2 pick, was floated one week after Jones' ACL.

The money quote from the "team source": "There's a long way to go (until the draft)," said the team source. "But I don't think anyone has given up on him yet."

That presumption to speak for everyone else strikes me as coming from the guy at the top of the pyramid, John Mara himself.

vacch - ( New Window )

let’s see what Schoen does. No argument that the Jones contract was a major error. But Schoen can rectify the ship, which unfortunately involves internal messaging to the Mara clan, not just insightful scouting.

I urge all of us to keep an open mind, at least through May.

You are a good poster, but your point isn't making sense.

On one hand you are complimenting Lynch for pivoting to Purdy after trading up for Lance. That quick pivot was the last pick in the draft.

On the other hand you are saying Schoen will double down on Jones, but he will draft a late first round QB or early 2nd round QB.

Huh? That would be a much more aggressive pivot than what SF did with Purdy.

bankrupting our future draft status for a top level qb who could very well be a disappointment. What wouldn't surprise me is to see us go for Daniels if he falls to us or Nix in a trade down.

The panic by some people is laughable. Schoen did not do give Jones the contract without Mara’s approval. The team is a mess because of poor drafting.
Schoen will have to get a new QB because of Jones health issues. How he goes about that will play out beginning in the next draft. We have a big talent deficit which he can continue to address moving forward. It will be beat to death by the same people daily. The smart fans know that this rebuild will take at least 2 more years. That has nothing to do with the QB. It is on the organization.

In comment 16305135 Ira said:

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bankrupting our future draft status for a top level qb who could very well be a disappointment. What wouldn't surprise me is to see us go for Daniels if he falls to us or Nix in a trade down.

I am always interested in these thought processes. You wouldn't trade up for a QB because the possibility exists for failure, but you would take what is perceived to be a less highly rated player even though chance for failure or disappointment is arguably higher, but the potential reward is lesser.

In comment 16305121 cosmicj said:

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let’s see what Schoen does. No argument that the Jones contract was a major error. But Schoen can rectify the ship, which unfortunately involves internal messaging to the Mara clan, not just insightful scouting. I urge all of us to keep an open mind, at least through May.

I think it is pretty binary at this point. They need to be on an accelerated track of improvement next year with a much higher degree of certainty as to the quarterback position going forward. The blind shill support of Joe Schoen is a thing of the past.

If instead DJ is back to starting games when he returns from injury and the quarterback they draft appears to be more DJ/Young/Darnold/Mayfield and less Stroud/Burrow/Herbert/Mahomes then this rebuild is DOA and Schoen will have sunk to Gettleman levels of credibility...

In comment 16305127 Sean said:

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You are a good poster, but your point isn't making sense. On one hand you are complimenting Lynch for pivoting to Purdy after trading up for Lance. That quick pivot was the last pick in the draft. On the other hand you are saying Schoen will double down on Jones, but he will draft a late first round QB or early 2nd round QB. Huh? That would be a much more aggressive pivot than what SF did with Purdy.

I expect Schoen to "cover his ass" and draft a quarterback where the value makes the most sense. That is likely late first round assuming now that we are out on CW and DM. But I also expect DJ to be the starting quarterback as soon as he is healthy. Why? Because it justifies the stupidity of the contract. So this is a "patchwork of nonsense" as BW has aptly described it.

The right answer is to keep DJ off the field in 2024 and cut him as soon as it is feasible given cap considerations. And start the guy from day one whom you believe is the next quarterback who will lead this team to a championship. If that is Drake Maye, whom I believe at this moment is the right guy for this franchise, than you find a way to get Drake Maye. If Drake Maye turns out to be CJ Stroud, you have your guy. If he turns out to be Bryce Young, you move on as early as possible from Drake Maye. And then you draft or trade for another guy. And another. You do not stew in stench by clinging to bad decisions for years, blowing smoke up the asses of the fans of the franchise.

My point is that there is no rebuild until you have the right quarterback. Not the quarterback who you fall in love with or believe will be great because of the way he looks in gym shorts. A quarterback that has the talent to win NFL championships. That is my point. It is not ambiguous.

In comment 16305110 The Mike said:

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Today's presser convinces me now that you have been right about Schoen all along. The contract he gave to DJ was easily the worst decision in this franchise's history. I have believed it was driven by Mara, but after listening to Schoen today, I now believe that it was Schoen who actually drove the DJ decision as you have correctly stated for months now. Mara was likely just blissfully along for the ride given his love for DJ. Was it a passive aggressive masterpiece by Mara? Perhaps. But Schoen deserves the primary blame on this, not Mara. As a result, it is very hard to take what Schoen says seriously now. Yes, from a PR perspective, he said the appropriate things today. But a galactically stupid decision at the quarterback position requires an immediate pivot to restore credibility/confidence and I just don't see him doing so. Like Joe Douglas with Zach Wilson, I see Schoen now trying to double down on the stupidity and running back DJ one more time next year.

I read that transcript today of Schoen's presser and found this part very, very revealing.

Schoen:

Quote:

I think does Daniel wish he could have some throws back or some games back or do some things differently? Probably, but it’s a team game. There’s 11 guys out there and everybody’s got to be on the same page and do their job. So, we’ve got to continue to build the team. The quarterback position is important, but it’s ultimately a team game and it’s not all on Daniel by any means.

I read that very clearly. And it rings of Jones being the victim of more bad luck in his career and he just needs more help. Again.

Welcome to the early announcement of the GM double down...

I hated that too, especially after he said Neal needs to play better.

Daniel can do no wrong. "It's a team game."

I can't see Schoen being fired without Daboll also being fired.

But you and bw are correct, the contract for Jones is itself a fireable offense. The only way it isn't is if ownership forced his hand.

In comment 16305198 Sean said:

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I hated that too, especially after he said Neal needs to play better. Daniel can do no wrong. "It's a team game."

Both of these sentiments that you and BW describe are precisely what made me cringe today. Let's be clear - relative to expectations and positional value, DJ has been monumentally worse than Evan Neal in 2023. It really isn't even a fair comparison...

In comment 16305198 Sean said:

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I hated that too, especially after he said Neal needs to play better. Daniel can do no wrong. "It's a team game."

I didn't like it either. But to some degree, Schoen has to cover his ass with some comments like this too since he executed that contract.

I think in RD 1. I doubt they trade up into the top 2 but they get a top 10 guy (Daniels, Nix, hell Williams could drop post measurement).

I think Mara has to give them some grace, he's replaced coaches quickly and I think will be loathe to do it again. Especially since Daboll's teams have shown some signs (except vs the Cowboys and likely the Eagles).

I think Dabs gets his guy and another 2 years to show significant progress.

Schoen himself acknowledged they need to add talent to the QB room. I don’t care who it is, just pick guys with high upside.

Daboll know’s tge QB position, get him some guys he likes.

Eric - the contract for Jones is a firable offense? They gave him what amounts to be a 2 year contract after he took them to the playoffs.

They were going to pay him something. You're being absurd.

Time may not totally sort this out, but will provide more clarity.

Big difference in available talent at the 2 extremes - we win out vs lose out remaining games.

Although late April is too early for a recovery timeline - there can definitely be signs of a complication or a smooth head of schedule recovery.

DeVito performance remainder of the way (and he should start all remaining games) provides clarity whether to even consider him as a bridge starter or even roster option.

That said you can't fire the owner.

In comment 16305237 ryanmkeane said:

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Eric - the contract for Jones is a firable offense? They gave him what amounts to be a 2 year contract after he took them to the playoffs. They were going to pay him something. You're being absurd.

Franchise tag or be honest about Jones production and sign a veteran placeholder on a one year deal like Mayfield.

In comment 16304896 JonC said:

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Daboll figures to be trying to shrink any and every learning curve possible.

Taylor can't stay healthy. You don't sign an injury-plagued QB to back up your injury-plagued starter. It made sense in 2021 because of his history with Daboll and the offensive system he was implementing, but it's not a new system anymore.

Brisset is the guy I'd want. He's a capable player, a younger, healthier version of Tyrod. He's always been servicable.

That said I hope they draft one in rd 1.

In comment 16305249 widmerseyebrow said:

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In comment 16305237 ryanmkeane said: Quote: Eric - the contract for Jones is a firable offense? They gave him what amounts to be a 2 year contract after he took them to the playoffs. They were going to pay him something. You're being absurd. Franchise tag or be honest about Jones production and sign a veteran placeholder on a one year deal like Mayfield.

This is old real estate I never mind going over. But the FT or TT was the more prudent move.

Unfortunately, Schoen blinked and Team Jones has a lot of guaranteed money and probably another audition or two to prove Schoen correct...

In comment 16305189 bw in dc said:

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In comment 16305110 The Mike said: Quote: Today's presser convinces me now that you have been right about Schoen all along. The contract he gave to DJ was easily the worst decision in this franchise's history. I have believed it was driven by Mara, but after listening to Schoen today, I now believe that it was Schoen who actually drove the DJ decision as you have correctly stated for months now. Mara was likely just blissfully along for the ride given his love for DJ. Was it a passive aggressive masterpiece by Mara? Perhaps. But Schoen deserves the primary blame on this, not Mara. As a result, it is very hard to take what Schoen says seriously now. Yes, from a PR perspective, he said the appropriate things today. But a galactically stupid decision at the quarterback position requires an immediate pivot to restore credibility/confidence and I just don't see him doing so. Like Joe Douglas with Zach Wilson, I see Schoen now trying to double down on the stupidity and running back DJ one more time next year. I read that transcript today of Schoen's presser and found this part very, very revealing. Schoen: Quote: I think does Daniel wish he could have some throws back or some games back or do some things differently? Probably, but it’s a team game. There’s 11 guys out there and everybody’s got to be on the same page and do their job. So, we’ve got to continue to build the team. The quarterback position is important, but it’s ultimately a team game and it’s not all on Daniel by any means. I read that very clearly. And it rings of Jones being the victim of more bad luck in his career and he just needs more help. Again. Welcome to the early announcement of the GM double down...

I would say a qb is more reliant on his teammates to do his job than a RT is on his teammates to perform his job, which is why Schoen said what he did.

on board with it. if dr james andrews was your closest colleague of 10+ years and you hired him to lead your surgical team, would you move forward on a major TJS case without consulting him? Or worse against his advice?

this is all pretty fundamental. they made a calculated gamble to guarantee jones 2 years instead of 1 on the tag, and 50% of what they gambled turned out to be a total bust so far. they are likely to give jones 2nd chance and it is possible he gets back on track, though im sure they will more significantly hedge their bet this time.

In comment 16304859 Eightshamrocks said:

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Wow, and you guys think the Daniel Jones supportes are crazy. Justin Fields is not a QB, period. He is an athlete. He should moved to WC or kick returner.

Justin Fields is a better QB than Jones. As usual, you’re clueless.

In comment 16305237 ryanmkeane said:

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Eric - the contract for Jones is a firable offense? They gave him what amounts to be a 2 year contract after he took them to the playoffs. They were going to pay him something. You're being absurd.

They should have franchised or let him walk.

Absurd was giving him a 4-year deal with that much guaranteed money. Only a Jones groupie would argue otherwise. But again, you're convinced he is a 10-12 best QB in the NFL. LOL

In comment 16305289 Eric on Li said:

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on board with it. if dr james andrews was your closest colleague of 10+ years and you hired him to lead your surgical team, would you move forward on a major TJS case without consulting him? Or worse against his advice? this is all pretty fundamental. they made a calculated gamble to guarantee jones 2 years instead of 1 on the tag, and 50% of what they gambled turned out to be a total bust so far. they are likely to give jones 2nd chance and it is possible he gets back on track, though im sure they will more significantly hedge their bet this time.

The biggest red flag with Schoen and Daboll isn't the 4-8 season.

It's the contract.

is... fans and pundits across the NFL were laughing at us when the deal was signed.

They were right.

In comment 16305301 Eric from BBI said:

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is... fans and pundits across the NFL were laughing at us when the deal was signed. They were right.

Laughing when he was drafted
Laughing when he was given the contract
Will continue to laugh as long as he's our starting QB

In comment 16305298 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 16305289 Eric on Li said: Quote: on board with it. if dr james andrews was your closest colleague of 10+ years and you hired him to lead your surgical team, would you move forward on a major TJS case without consulting him? Or worse against his advice? this is all pretty fundamental. they made a calculated gamble to guarantee jones 2 years instead of 1 on the tag, and 50% of what they gambled turned out to be a total bust so far. they are likely to give jones 2nd chance and it is possible he gets back on track, though im sure they will more significantly hedge their bet this time. The biggest red flag with Schoen and Daboll isn't the 4-8 season. It's the contract.

that's a fair position to take now, though im not sure they'd concede the mistake until they have a starting QB they like better than Jones.

the roster building process obviously needs to play out for 2024 but looking back at 2023/2022 there certainly wasnt any obvious alternative they missed. the 2022 draft was perhaps even more abominable than thought at the time and the 2023 group other than stroud hasnt done much more than tommy devito has.

i mean it's not impossible that there are teams that would take tommy devito over any of the first 5 qbs selected in 2022 (pickett, ridder, willis, corral, howell).

The issue is they had their hands on Jones for a full year....up close and personal. They saw him on and off the field. I think they were swayed by his intelligence, work ethnic, character, and other top notch intangibles. But they didn't pay enough attention to the player.

What scares me is they misjudged him so badly.

In comment 16305301 Eric from BBI said:

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is... fans and pundits across the NFL were laughing at us when the deal was signed. They were right.

fans of other teams laughed at eli too even as he won super bowls. "worst qb to win the sb" etc.

fans earlier this year were laughing at russell wilson/denver now he's on a run.

fans are/have been equally laughing at kyler and watson the past couple years through injury and bad play.

zach wilson, mac jones, kenny pickett, have been laughed at all year.

add all that up and it's like 10+ recent first round picks and $.5bn worth of laughter.

tua was laughed at pre-mcdaniels.

it's really not that complicated, finding quality qbs is hard. fans laugh at teams that lose. they laugh less at teams that win, they wait until they lose in the playoffs like dak then laugh some more.

only 1 team is happy at the end of the year.

They already planned for a 2023 without Daniel Jones. Taylor was already on the roster and is, as we've seen, Jones's equal (at minimum) as a player. The plan was Taylor + a draft pick/UDFA as a bridge to the 2024 draft. That gave them two offseasons and two drafts to find a quarterback, with the knowledge that the 2024 draft was likely to be strong at QB. It was a viable, sound plan. It was a cheap placeholder that works allow them to put a representative product on the field while flushing out Gettleman's garbage. If they had just stuck to that plan they would be aligned.

Instead we are here.

.

In comment 16305314 Eric from BBI said:

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The issue is they had their hands on Jones for a full year....up close and personal. They saw him on and off the field. I think they were swayed by his intelligence, work ethnic, character, and other top notch intangibles. But they didn't pay enough attention to the player. What scares me is they misjudged him so badly.

What got lost in the sauce, IMV, is they seem to have glossed over the tremendous job Dabka did managing Jones's game.

The attached the training wheels and orchestrated a coaching masterpiece.

In comment 16305314 Eric from BBI said:

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The issue is they had their hands on Jones for a full year....up close and personal. They saw him on and off the field. I think they were swayed by his intelligence, work ethnic, character, and other top notch intangibles. But they didn't pay enough attention to the player. What scares me is they misjudged him so badly.

they paid him what is basically 12th most for QBs right now, and i dont think that was an unfair valuation of his caliber of play. tearing an ACL you would obviously have preferred to have him on the tag, because next year if they chose to keep him they'd get him for less than they will have paid out, but just as much could go right next year (like last year) as went wrong this year.

i think they more badly misjudged the offensive line they assembled that got both he and tyrod nearly killed.

and perhaps even more badly misjudged the odds of a 31 year old with a lengthy list of soft tissue injuries finding the fountain of youth.

and perhaps worst of all misjudged that it was worth giving parris campbell $5m when he keeping him over jamison crowder probably cost them a win.

and maybe even worse than all that drafted neal to fill the role of ereck flowers part deux.

i guess what im saying is that as much as went right in year 1, went wrong in year 2, almost all across the board.

hopefully they learn from all of it, and a good step in the right direction to that end would be drafting a quality QB to hedge jones and spending their FA$ on fixing the OL for real for once.

In comment 16305316 Go Terps said:

Quote:

They already planned for a 2023 without Daniel Jones. Taylor was already on the roster and is, as we've seen, Jones's equal (at minimum) as a player. The plan was Taylor + a draft pick/UDFA as a bridge to the 2024 draft. That gave them two offseasons and two drafts to find a quarterback, with the knowledge that the 2024 draft was likely to be strong at QB. It was a viable, sound plan. It was a cheap placeholder that works allow them to put a representative product on the field while flushing out Gettleman's garbage. If they had just stuck to that plan they would be aligned. Instead we are here.

the obvious outcome of taylor playing any regular snaps was what happened - mediocre results and an injury within a month. that is what he's been every year since 2017.

past "hedging".

We need to close the gap on the Cowboys and Eagles.

In comment 16305314 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

The issue is they had their hands on Jones for a full year....up close and personal. They saw him on and off the field. I think they were swayed by his intelligence, work ethnic, character, and other top notch intangibles. But they didn't pay enough attention to the player. What scares me is they misjudged him so badly.

It is scary but there are some risks to take in players. However, Schoen had a perfect hedge for that risk at his disposal, the Franchise Tag, but he fumbled it.

That laughing at the Jones deal was more than justified at the time because Schoen had that one-year "Get out of Jail" Free Card and he used it on the wrong guy.

and if you listened to Schoen today, he sounds like he might want to give Saquon a long-term deal.

WTF?

They botched this. I hope they know it.

In comment 16305321 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 16305314 Eric from BBI said: Quote: The issue is they had their hands on Jones for a full year....up close and personal. They saw him on and off the field. I think they were swayed by his intelligence, work ethnic, character, and other top notch intangibles. But they didn't pay enough attention to the player. What scares me is they misjudged him so badly. What got lost in the sauce, IMV, is they seem to have glossed over the tremendous job Dabka did managing Jones's game. The attached the training wheels and orchestrated a coaching masterpiece.

on this we agree but it's not just jones - they got a lot out of a little across the board. richie james and hodgins were bargain finds who were productive. slayton was on the cut line and took a paycut and turned productive. bellinger, cager, myrick, even tanner hudson were all productive.

they bought their own press clippings and thought "wow imagine what this offense is going to look like when we add some higher end talent?"

(aside, many of us bought that to some degree too)

except the higher end talent they bought was fools gold, and the OL regressed because they didn't get good play out of the young guys they chose to lean on. a near total offensive failure resulted.

the only positive from this year is that they've shown some glimmers of hope with devito. not that he's playing so well but that they have designed a semi-functional offense around him.

In comment 16305325 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16305316 Go Terps said: Quote: They already planned for a 2023 without Daniel Jones. Taylor was already on the roster and is, as we've seen, Jones's equal (at minimum) as a player. The plan was Taylor + a draft pick/UDFA as a bridge to the 2024 draft. That gave them two offseasons and two drafts to find a quarterback, with the knowledge that the 2024 draft was likely to be strong at QB. It was a viable, sound plan. It was a cheap placeholder that works allow them to put a representative product on the field while flushing out Gettleman's garbage. If they had just stuck to that plan they would be aligned. Instead we are here. the obvious outcome of taylor playing any regular snaps was what happened - mediocre results and an injury within a month. that is what he's been every year since 2017.

Which is no different than Jones, except at a fraction of the cost.

bw is correct above: Daboll flew an airplane through a canyon blindfolded in 2022. He recognized very early that Jones could only run a remedial offense and adjusted accordingly.

Daniel Jones has always been a poor quarterback. His coaches have just had varying success managing his shortcomings.

In comment 16305326 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

past "hedging". We need to close the gap on the Cowboys and Eagles.

the gap with both of those teams is most pronounced on the OL and has been for a decade.

Exactly regarding the remedial offense.

So why did Daboll go along with this?

Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse?

In comment 16305330 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

and if you listened to Schoen today, he sounds like he might want to give Saquon a long-term deal. WTF? They botched this. I hope they know it.

This has to be ownership, doesn't it? I can't believe Schoen is that stupid.

In comment 16305336 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16305326 Eric from BBI said: Quote: past "hedging". We need to close the gap on the Cowboys and Eagles. the gap with both of those teams is most pronounced on the OL and has been for a decade.

Yes. But it is at QB too.

Look around the league. If you have the QB, you're in every game.

In comment 16305337 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

Exactly regarding the remedial offense. So why did Daboll go along with this? Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse?

I'll say it again: we know God damned well this is ownership.

In comment 16305333 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16305325 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16305316 Go Terps said: Quote: They already planned for a 2023 without Daniel Jones. Taylor was already on the roster and is, as we've seen, Jones's equal (at minimum) as a player. The plan was Taylor + a draft pick/UDFA as a bridge to the 2024 draft. That gave them two offseasons and two drafts to find a quarterback, with the knowledge that the 2024 draft was likely to be strong at QB. It was a viable, sound plan. It was a cheap placeholder that works allow them to put a representative product on the field while flushing out Gettleman's garbage. If they had just stuck to that plan they would be aligned. Instead we are here. the obvious outcome of taylor playing any regular snaps was what happened - mediocre results and an injury within a month. that is what he's been every year since 2017. Which is no different than Jones, except at a fraction of the cost. bw is correct above: Daboll flew an airplane through a canyon blindfolded in 2022. He recognized very early that Jones could only run a remedial offense and adjusted accordingly. Daniel Jones has always been a poor quarterback. His coaches have just had varying success managing his shortcomings.

i know you like to pretend there was no football during your gap year, but jones didnt miss any time last year and won a playoff game. tyrod got carted off in his limited preseason action and injured within a few series of entering the bears game.

In comment 16305338 Sean said:

Quote:

Quote: Ryan Dunleavy @rydunleavy For me, Joe Schoen's thoughts on #Giants QB situation can be summed up in these quotes: "The expectation is when Daniel’s healthy that he will be our starting quarterback." "I think we're going to have to do something on the quarterback, whether it's free agency or the draft." "We’ll (draft) the best player available." "Look at the past however many years of top 10 quarterbacks. I just went through the 2018 Draft and how many of those guys are starters, how many are with different teams? Some are out of the league that were taken in the first round from that draft. It’s not a position you can just evaluate on film, I don’t believe." My thoughts ... most likely scenario today (a lot can change) is that the #NYGiants draft a top non-QB in RD1 and look to hit a Jalen Hurts-esque home run in RD2 (they have 2 picks) based on trusting all their in-person evaluations, knowing they have Daniel Jones in reserve.

i think the only thing he has wrong is that they will move into the first round to get the 5th year option.

In comment 16305341 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 16305336 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16305326 Eric from BBI said: Quote: past "hedging". We need to close the gap on the Cowboys and Eagles. the gap with both of those teams is most pronounced on the OL and has been for a decade. Yes. But it is at QB too. Look around the league. If you have the QB, you're in every game.

which of those qbs should schoen/dabs have acquired since they were hired?

In comment 16305330 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

and if you listened to Schoen today, he sounds like he might want to give Saquon a long-term deal. WTF? They botched this. I hope they know it.

Yes, I heard it live. Hopefully words to let Saquon know he is interested but the contract better be market (not what Saquon thinks is market for a RB). Especially for a RB that we are now taking off the field on 3rd down!

Just awful they didn't just tag Jones and then let Saquon test the market and come back with his best offer to match.

Schoen screwed up and showed poor judgment on these deals. He needs to be better.

What separates good from bad is how they correct course.

In comment 16305339 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16305330 Eric from BBI said: Quote: and if you listened to Schoen today, he sounds like he might want to give Saquon a long-term deal. WTF? They botched this. I hope they know it. This has to be ownership, doesn't it? I can't believe Schoen is that stupid.

No, otherwise Schoen would have been forced to use the 5th year option before the season. He drank the kool-aid from an overachieving year and hot game versus a crappy Minn defense.

In comment 16305355 ThomasG said:

Quote:

In comment 16305339 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 16305330 Eric from BBI said: Quote: and if you listened to Schoen today, he sounds like he might want to give Saquon a long-term deal. WTF? They botched this. I hope they know it. This has to be ownership, doesn't it? I can't believe Schoen is that stupid. No, otherwise Schoen would have been forced to use the 5th year option before the season. He drank the kool-aid from an overachieving year and hot game versus a crappy Minn defense.

Whoops sorry. I meant the deal for Jones.

Kind of feel ownership told Schoen not to let Saquon go. But he could have still tagged Jones and given Saquon something similar to what they agreed upon + a tip.

It's become clear the only pretending was that done by the Giants with regards to Jones's value and abilities.

In comment 16305354 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

What separates good from bad is how they correct course.

Spot on. The ability to identify and fix mistakes quickly is probably just as important as making the right calls.

I see two franchises who overwhelm the Giants on both fronts and this has been going on for a very long time.

I think Schoen will draft a QB but I think he is going to raise his standard if he chooses to draft one with his first pick or has to move up even higher. He has very little margin for error (contract/on the field product).

He can accomplish a lot for the franchise with a trade down over the next two years with extra picks in the draft.

This franchise still has a significant issue on both fronts with the OL being much worse off. If executed well JS could do a lot of good for the franchise.

In comment 16305354 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

What separates good from bad is how they correct course.

correct. and to schoen's credit he reversed himself on pugh/tyree phillips to positive effect. they dumped the bad experiments at punt returner and signed a real returner also to positive effect, just not before it cost them a game.

his comment that i appreciated most today was owning up to the mistakes at punt returner. id have liked to hear a little more of that because it shows learning from mistakes.

In comment 16305343 Go Terps said:

Quote:

So why did Daboll go along with this? Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse? I'll say it again: we know God damned well this is ownership.

Haha you need to believe that because you know how ridiculous it sounds to think you know better than Schoen & Daboll.

The Giants fucked up with Jones. Simple as that. The ? I'm most interested is in...do the Giants admit as much and go get a new QB or do the Giants double down on Jones? Gun to head, I think its the former, but the latter isn't out of the question. And the latter scares the shit out of me. Like, if we still believe in Daniel Jones...what the fuck are we doing? '24 will be year six. This isn't like Phil Simms; the sport has changed.

Then again, the love for Daniel Jones is so odd to me...this would be like us going to into '98 & saying, 'Well, we haven't done right by Dave Brown. Let's run it back.'

In comment 16305368 Milton said:

Quote:

In comment 16305343 Go Terps said: Quote: So why did Daboll go along with this? Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse? I'll say it again: we know God damned well this is ownership. Haha you need to believe that because you know how ridiculous it sounds to think you know better than Schoen & Daboll.

which would only be half as ridiculous as his assertion that ownership stopped them from drafting malik willis 5th overall because of race.

In comment 16305371 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

The Giants fucked up with Jones. Simple as that. The ? I'm most interested is in...do the Giants admit as much and go get a new QB or do the Giants double down on Jones? Gun to head, I think its the former, but the latter isn't out of the question. And the latter scares the shit out of me. Like, if we still believe in Daniel Jones...what the fuck are we doing? '24 will be year six. This isn't like Phil Simms; the sport has changed. Then again, the love for Daniel Jones is so odd to me...this would be like us going to into '98 & saying, 'Well, we haven't done right by Dave Brown. Let's run it back.'

they will get a QB if there is a QB they like that they can get.

i do think this year will have enough options that they will like one of them, but that's the fundamental mistake people make. you can't just order up a qb you are willing to invest a chunk of your career in from amazon prime. people are already declaring bryce young a bust and he is almost certainly a higher caliber prospect than anyone they will have a shot at (i'd take him in a heartbeat btw if whoever the new carolina regime is wants to start over).

In comment 16304988 Chris in Philly said:

Quote:

In comment 16304951 WillVAB said: Quote: People here are drawing conclusions from the presser that just aren’t there. I didn’t interpret his comments as committing to Jones, I interpreted them as not broadcasting to the world they’re looking for an upgrade in the draft. Exactly. I am not sure why we keep hanging on every word that these guys say on press conferences. They intentionally don’t say anything useful.

Agree 1000% and most of these posts just come off as pissed off fans wanting their pound of flesh.

who have watched football for 20+ years who still try to "decode" press conferences.

It's silly.

In comment 16305316 Go Terps said:

Quote:

They already planned for a 2023 without Daniel Jones. Taylor was already on the roster and is, as we've seen, Jones's equal (at minimum) as a player. The plan was Taylor + a draft pick/UDFA as a bridge to the 2024 draft. That gave them two offseasons and two drafts to find a quarterback, with the knowledge that the 2024 draft was likely to be strong at QB. It was a viable, sound plan. It was a cheap placeholder that works allow them to put a representative product on the field while flushing out Gettleman's garbage. If they had just stuck to that plan they would be aligned. Instead we are here.

Nah, Tyrod was a poor signing from the start. Guy had already gotten the fragile label when he turned 30 getting banged up in Cleveland, LA, and Houston before joining the Giants. It was a bad idea to sign a guy who was showing signs of not being able to stay healthy for a season to back up a guy who had shown signs of not being able to stay healthy for a season. We got really lucky in 2022 that Jones didn't get injured in spite of his increased running. That was obviously an outlier.

Taylor is on the wrong side of 30, has a sleight frame, and is simply injury prone at this point.

In comment 16305022 JonC said:

Quote:

In comment 16304974 JonC said: Quote: In comment 16304951 WillVAB said: Quote: People here are drawing conclusions from the presser that just aren’t there. I didn’t interpret his comments as committing to Jones, I interpreted them as not broadcasting to the world they’re looking for an upgrade in the draft. It's not about committing to Jones, it's about extent he'll go to begin moving on from him. But, yes of course he's going to reveal much if anything. Some of us are extrapolating based on the pivot he'd have to sell to ownership to secure a premium QB prospect and the cap allocations, etc. Schoen could go QB in the 2nd round, or try to trade back up into the 1st, to keep the costs in check.

Daniel Jones was never their guy. He’s probably ownership’s guy but he’s never been Schoen/Daboll’s guy. No 5th year option, a mid market extension with an out after year 2, and now publicly saying they’re going to address QB in one way or another.

Some of the shit being thrown around here with the benefit of hindsight is ridiculous.

In comment 16305337 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

Exactly regarding the remedial offense. So why did Daboll go along with this? Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse?

I think Daboll was just the low man on the totem poll. Go back and check his guarded comments about Jones even though they were winning games. He finally caved later in the season when I think it was made clear that Jones was going to be the guy going forward.

In comment 16305390 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

who have watched football for 20+ years who still try to "decode" press conferences. It's silly.

its a rorschach test. people see what they want to see

In comment 16304815 djm said:

Quote:

for the sake of argument let's suspend all cap implication talk and assume this could work, financially. The Giants finish 2023 with a 6-11 record. They are picking somewhere in the 8-12 range, give or take 1-2 slots. It's February/March of 2024. The Cardinals call NYG and offer Kyler Murray and ask for Daniel Jones (money purposes) and our first round pick. Maybe we can haggle them down to a 2nd and future 2nd or additional mid round picks in 24, something like that. Maybe we can even offer them a 2025 FIRST and not give up the 24 first rounder. Why it works for Arizona? They want to move on from Murray and take a rookie QB in 24 and since they will likely be picking top 5, have their sights set on 2 QBs--one of which should be at 5. They get their guy, move on from Murray but get to add a stop gap vet not making insane money for longer than 2 years. It only works for NYG if they love Murray, obviously. ***This trade would have to be orchestrated on draft day to ensure the Cards can in fact draft their guy. IF their QB is there, the trade goes through. Do you bite? Do you counter offer? Or do you hang up the phone and say DJM is an asshole for even thinking about adding Murray...

HELL NO!

In comment 16305462 dancing blue bear said:

Quote:

In comment 16305390 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: who have watched football for 20+ years who still try to "decode" press conferences. It's silly. its a rorschach test. people see what they want to see

Schoen is arguably the most important person in the NYG organization right now. He's in charge of rebuilding this moribund franchise.

And since he rarely speaks publicly, why wouldn't there be strong interest in studying his words? Especially when the team is nosediving again and their $160M QB is injured again and looked horrible when he played...

seems like everything that could have gone wrong has: OL injures which caused QB injuries.

The Giants were in a tough position. At the time, QB was either DJ or TT. DJ was the obvious choice. For the people wanting TT as a starter would be basically punting on 2023 from the start. Dumb after DJ had gotten us to the playoffs.

Still DJ's signing was questionable--everyone knew it was risky--and in hindsight, right at this moment, DJ should have been franchised. but that's hindsight which one cannot change, but one can learn from it.

Remember Schoen and Daboll are first time GM and Head coaches. We need give them time to see if they can figure it out.

In comment 16305511 Sean said:

Quote:

Quote: Kenjac @JackKennedy - Spent a 3rd on Will Grier - Signed Bridgewater ($33M guaranteed). - Cut Cam - Traded a 2nd, 4th and 6th for Darnold - Traded Bridgewater for a 6th - Picked up Darnold's $18.85M option - Signed Cam - Spent a 3rd on Matt Corral - Traded for Baker - Cut Baker - Cut Cam - Drafted Young over Stroud - Fired Frank Reich after 11 games

There, but for the grace of god go the Giants. This is what QB hell looks like and if the Giants don’t start making better decisions, this is what our future will look like too.

In comment 16305507 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 16305462 dancing blue bear said: Quote: In comment 16305390 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: who have watched football for 20+ years who still try to "decode" press conferences. It's silly. its a rorschach test. people see what they want to see Schoen is arguably the most important person in the NYG organization right now. He's in charge of rebuilding this moribund franchise. And since he rarely speaks publicly, why wouldn't there be strong interest in studying his words? Especially when the team is nosediving again and their $160M QB is injured again and looked horrible when he played...

I get *why* there's interest, but hasn't everyone learned by now that they say nothing in press conferences?

The exceptions are Mara, who often puts his foot in his mouth, and occasional lunatics at their wits end like Joe Judge.

Coaches and GMs don't give you anything. They learn how not to just as much as they learn how to coach. They teach media relations classes on this inside the league. Trying to find hidden meaning is just filling in the blanks with what you want to hear.

with the Giants' O-Line all alone in the bottom left quadrant, I would make no final judgment on a quarterback based on his play this year.

Jones' injury profile so early in his career would weigh against him.

we are not getting Williams, Maye, or Daniels due to our expected draft position, and the amount of capital needed to move up doesn't make sense for a team with so many talent deficiencies.

None of the other QBs likely have a first round grade. So he's thinking QB in 2nd or 3rd and would therefore likely be guys who need time to develop.

So DJ starts and a guy like McCarthy or Penix get a year to learn.

As a side note, I am not sold on Maye. To me, the only two QBs who look like potentially special, franchise altering players are Williams and Daniels.

I got nothing out of the press conference. JS is going to say whatever he needs to say in order to save face and not divulge what’s going forward into the future. The one thing that he did reveal which is obvious is that the QB position is weak depth wise. JS obviously knows that Daniel Jones has two neck injuries in an ACL injury. It would be very unwise for JS to hedge on Jones miraculously becoming a top 10 quarterback in the league once returning. I think he knows this. QB will be addressed in the 1st round.

The best example is Schoen saying he wasn't shopping Toney only to trade him a few months later.

In comment 16305533 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

I get *why* there's interest, but hasn't everyone learned by now that they say nothing in press conferences? The exceptions are Mara, who often puts his foot in his mouth, and occasional lunatics at their wits end like Joe Judge. Coaches and GMs don't give you anything. They learn how not to just as much as they learn how to coach. They teach media relations classes on this inside the league. Trying to find hidden meaning is just filling in the blanks with what you want to hear.

To each their own. I find them very interesting, especially watching them and then reading the transcript.

For example, I was surprised how critical Schoen was towards Neal. Yet on Jones, Schoen basically said he was a victim of circumstances.

I have no problem with the criticism lodged at Neal. But, JFC, Jones was God awful when he played, too.

No one on this team, especially the offense, should be immune from criticism.

The "hidden meaning" I take from that it is Jones really is Schoen's QB moving forward. You may and others may disagree, but to me that's a tell.

In comment 16305533 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 16305507 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 16305462 dancing blue bear said: Quote: In comment 16305390 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: who have watched football for 20+ years who still try to "decode" press conferences. It's silly. its a rorschach test. people see what they want to see Schoen is arguably the most important person in the NYG organization right now. He's in charge of rebuilding this moribund franchise. And since he rarely speaks publicly, why wouldn't there be strong interest in studying his words? Especially when the team is nosediving again and their $160M QB is injured again and looked horrible when he played... I get *why* there's interest, but hasn't everyone learned by now that they say nothing in press conferences? The exceptions are Mara, who often puts his foot in his mouth, and occasional lunatics at their wits end like Joe Judge. Coaches and GMs don't give you anything. They learn how not to just as much as they learn how to coach. They teach media relations classes on this inside the league. Trying to find hidden meaning is just filling in the blanks with what you want to hear.

dont agree, they all let stuff out and schoen has been more candid than most. off the top of my head from today:

don't see neal as a guard

took responsibility for the punt return fiasco at beginning of the year, specifically said they had guys in draft they liked who went earlier than they expected

need to add a qb to the depth chart (duh)

confirmed that they gave leonard williams a choice on trade

things can obviously change, they could fire bobby johnson the day after the season ends and the new guy could decide to move neal to guard, but like i said schoen has been pretty forthright in his time as GM. last year he confirmed during bye week they had extension conversations with 2 players (later reported to be love/barkley). in the spring he said tagging jones was a "worst case scenario". when they drafted neal they asked why and he said "because ekwonu was gone" indicating they had similar grades on both. i think he said that same draft year they had 6 guys they liked for picks #5/#7.

In comment 16305558 Sean said:

Quote:

The best example is Schoen saying he wasn't shopping Toney only to trade him a few months later.

surely you understand there's an obvious difference between revealing:

competitive information like negotiations w/ external parties, draft boards, etc
and
insights into decisions already made, players under contract, general perspective from within the org, etc

things change every day in every profession, really not that hard to take anything re the future witha grain of salt knowing nobody is clairvoyant.

I thought he was just straightforward and truthful on Neal. But also supportive.
He’s gotta play better. We believe he will. No thoughts of moving him.

I would have liked to hear some follow up on how they approached the season, training camp, oline reps. It seemed really soft and chill (from my couch)

I def think they were not ready for the season and after getting punched I. The mouth the entire team and coaches staggered around for several weeks before they looked remotely coherent.

Why would Neal be less Schoen’s guy than Jones?

There are multiple ways of interpreting a tell like that . It could mean Neal is on way stronger footing than Jones. Or that the owner has been making comments about one player, so that requires hedging & vagueness, but not Neal, so Schoen can be bit more direct there.

Who knows? Let’s interpret things based on firmer information.

he must have a 5 year gtd from mara.

i think mara is done with teh fire carousel at least at GM.

In comment 16305337 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

Exactly regarding the remedial offense. So why did Daboll go along with this? Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse?

They ran a remedial offense because the offensive line was so poor. You guys act like a simple offense is bad. It can be very good. You do not need to do a lot well. It is much better to a few things well then try to do a bunch of things mediocre.

Just me here, but if I hired a new coordinator and installed a QB's 3rd offense in 4 years, I would make it less complicated, not because of the talent of the QB but because it is the intelligent thing to do.

It worked to the tune of coach of the year.

Everyone here gets far too much wrong to be talking like experts.

When anyone speaks with CERTAINTY like they KNOW, what Daboll or Schoen think or thought, you can only be certain of ONE THING.

That you are listening to an idiot.

In comment 16306144 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 16305337 Eric from BBI said: Quote: Exactly regarding the remedial offense. So why did Daboll go along with this? Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse? They ran a remedial offense because the offensive line was so poor. You guys act like a simple offense is bad. It can be very good. You do not need to do a lot well. It is much better to a few things well then try to do a bunch of things mediocre. Just me here, but if I hired a new coordinator and installed a QB's 3rd offense in 4 years, I would make it less complicated, not because of the talent of the QB but because it is the intelligent thing to do. It worked to the tune of coach of the year. Everyone here gets far too much wrong to be talking like experts. When anyone speaks with CERTAINTY like they KNOW, what Daboll or Schoen think or thought, you can only be certain of ONE THING. That you are listening to an idiot.

In comment 16306144 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 16305337 Eric from BBI said: Quote: Exactly regarding the remedial offense. So why did Daboll go along with this? Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse? They ran a remedial offense because the offensive line was so poor. You guys act like a simple offense is bad. It can be very good. You do not need to do a lot well. It is much better to a few things well then try to do a bunch of things mediocre. Just me here, but if I hired a new coordinator and installed a QB's 3rd offense in 4 years, I would make it less complicated, not because of the talent of the QB but because it is the intelligent thing to do. It worked to the tune of coach of the year. Everyone here gets far too much wrong to be talking like experts. When anyone speaks with CERTAINTY like they KNOW, what Daboll or Schoen think or thought, you can only be certain of ONE THING. That you are listening to an idiot.

Nobody runs an entirely remedial offense because of the OL. Never happened in the history of the NFL. You design the offense first and foremost around the QB. And of course you make provisions when the OL fails. The 2022 gameplan was scaled back from the jump. At no point did the Giants show a willingness to play vertical football. This shouldn't be a surprise. They have been scaling back the offense since the beginning, and Jones has pretty much only played in different flavors of remedial offense since he joined the Giants.

In comment 16306158 jinkies said:

Quote:

In comment 16306144 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: In comment 16305337 Eric from BBI said: Quote: Exactly regarding the remedial offense. So why did Daboll go along with this? Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse? They ran a remedial offense because the offensive line was so poor. You guys act like a simple offense is bad. It can be very good. You do not need to do a lot well. It is much better to a few things well then try to do a bunch of things mediocre. Just me here, but if I hired a new coordinator and installed a QB's 3rd offense in 4 years, I would make it less complicated, not because of the talent of the QB but because it is the intelligent thing to do. It worked to the tune of coach of the year. Everyone here gets far too much wrong to be talking like experts. When anyone speaks with CERTAINTY like they KNOW, what Daboll or Schoen think or thought, you can only be certain of ONE THING. That you are listening to an idiot. Nobody runs an entirely remedial offense because of the OL. Never happened in the history of the NFL. You design the offense first and foremost around the QB. And of course you make provisions when the OL fails. The 2022 gameplan was scaled back from the jump. At no point did the Giants show a willingness to play vertical football. This shouldn't be a surprise. They have been scaling back the offense since the beginning, and Jones has pretty much only played in different flavors of remedial offense since he joined the Giants.

Wrong, very wrong. Design and offense is the wrong description. Let's use game plan.

Only an idiot would install a downfield game-plan with an OL that can't block long enough for it to succeed.

Not what they SAY.

I expect that the people in charge of the team make decisions because they want to win.

So why did Schoen and Daboll resign Jones?

I see much WILD speculation about these reasons. To be very specific, that is the stupidity.

It is where I bristle.

When we argue this down, we get to the stupid place many people reside.

Schoen and Daboll did not do what many people thought they would do regarding Jones.

Once that happened, either Daboll or Schoen were coerced or they are bad because they did not agree with the negative take on Jones. When people explain away last year due to schedule, that is not an excuses but fact. When injuries and schedule are used to explain away the beginning of this year, people are mocked for making excuses.

It is intellectually dishonest.

Now I am hearing we can't trust Schoen but we can trust Daboll. Why? because he can't control his temper on the sidelines, I wonder what happens without cameras? The inability to regulate his emotions makes it appear he cares more than other. Must be true.

Unbunch the knickers, should be a fun off season.

I want Daniels and we should move up if we have to. I liked Jones, don't love him.
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and its other shortcomings. Make no mistake, it was to aid Jones and it worked until defenses began to adjust. The adjustments have shut Jones down, except for an occasional good game (or half) versus below average to bad defenses.

last year. before they added hodgins last year, they put like 1/3 of their WR reps into guys like sills, golladay, marcus johnson - and at the same time the OL sucked. Ezeudu was bad to start the year last year then he got hurt, Lemiuex was unplayable as usual, Feliciano and Glowinski started slow, and Neal was i believe statistically the worst OT all last year.

when Hodgins/Slayton/James became the starting WRs and Gates/Bredseon came back and solidified LG, the offense opened up and they started passing a lot more.

here are the exact numbers of run vs pass from last year, which i've posted about before in more depth if you search.



in the Minnesota playoff game they passed exactly 56% i think. in the Philly game last year Jones was pressured 46% of the drop backs and got sacked 5x.

this year they added a bunch of weapons, presumably expecting the passing game trend to accelerate and continue expanding -- except they let 2 offensive line starters from what wasnt even a good line to begin with go, benched their most experienced guard 1 week into the season, and lost Thomas on the first drive of the year. and to put it mildly, Neal didnt take "the leap".

jones ended up getting pressured more than any QB they measured, on track to end up +100 pressures over the next closest player since PFF began tracking with the highest quick pressure rate to boot, and essentially every game turned into the philly game.

it hasn't just been jones either - devito has thomas/barkley/jms back plus pugh, and he just set a record for sacks in 3 games. tyrod barely made it through the miami game and was in the hospital on IR literally 2 weeks later.



if you cant see that the OL was a major fundamental flaw in this roster construction I dont know what to tell you. jones didnt play well but nobody would have, especially without barkley. i thought tyrod played as well as he could possibly play, with barkley doing a lot of heavy lifting, and he still only averaged 11.5 ppg in his 2 full games, and that was with a bunch of turnovers. carl banks has said it, no qb was thriving behind this ol. schoen didnt do a good enough job owning that in his remarks yesterday.

The OL has been poor. So has Jones. Both can be true. In Jones's case his performance has been consistent going back to Duke. This is nothing new.

The aim is to improve the OL for a QB who is much better than Jones.

The more I think what Terps outlined makes the most sense. The only difference is I don't think it'll be a veteran, I think a young QB could be brought in via trade.

Fields and Jones have a similar game, Daboll is good at developing QB's and maybe he gets something out of Fields. His contract lines up where he'd be on a rookie deal in 2024 and potentially the 5th year option in 2025.

He would be aligned with Jones in that Schoen could pick up his option in 2025 while Jones is completely off the books in 2026. This assumes Jones is released after next season. The Giants would then decide what to do with Fields in 2026 or have no QB obligations then.

Financially it's not a bad strategy to keep all draft assets and build while you manage the mistake the Jones contract was. A way to do this is bring in a highly talented QB who's been stuck with a poor offensive staff.

Schoen could draft a QB, but the Giants are playing themselves out of Williams/Maye and probably Daniels. Everyone else is going to be a polarizing prospect with flaws most likely.

I think Fields is not a bad play. Trade a 3rd for him. He can compete with Jones & DeVito and probably win the job.

As an aside, couldn't you also see the Eagles bringing in Fields? That's a franchise that is always bringing in QBs.

For minicamp too.

I would not do that, myself. To me you still have a QB problem in that scenario. I come back to how I interpret the modern NFL, under this CBA - there are three kinds of teams.

1. Those with a franchise QB (Mahomes, etc.)
2. Those with a drafted QB who is no later than his second season, who they hope becomes a category 1 guy. The only guy in the league I'd say looks like ascending to category 1 is Brock Purdy.
3. Everybody else.

The Giants are in group 3. Trading for Fields doesn't get them out of group 3.

We need to be drafting QBs, and we need to be cheap at all 3 spots until we get someone we can confidently say is group 1. That's how you build and maintain pipelines for the rest of the roster while you search.

With Fields, like with Jones, we'd have to convince ourselves he'll become something he hasn't shown. We need to reverse that thinking. I want the Giants to draft QBs and find reasons to move on from them. The guys that stick will be those who, through their play, give the Giants no choice but to pay them.

Stay cheap and stay versatile. The Giants have never learned how to properly manipulate their roster since the rookie wage scale was introduced in 2011, and since the pass game rules changed.

I agree, but as you mention the Jones contract is in the way. If it was up to me, I'd absorb the $69M cap hit in 2024 and be done with Jones. It would be historic, but it clears the deck for 2025 and you'd get that $22M back dead cap charge back. I don't know if it could be done with the ACL, but that would be my thinking. Take all the medicine next year.

In comment 16306296 Go Terps said:

Quote:

The OL has been poor. So has Jones. Both can be true. In Jones's case his performance has been consistent going back to Duke. This is nothing new. The aim is to improve the OL for a QB who is much better than Jones.

wrong, this year his performance was appreciably worse.

you dropped into my (non-DJ) thread about coaches/qbs a couple weeks to post jones' 2023 EPA but disappeared when I noted how much his EPA this year was an outlier relative to his prior 4 seasons.



we can talk about safe gameplanning last year all we want, but here he is on last year's EPA leaderboard sitting at 7th best EPA per dropback, before accounting for the rushing.



make no mistake, jones performance was bad this year and as ive said numerous times (including in this thread) i expect them to draft a QB in round 1 because they need to hedge and the smartest way to do that is on a rookie scale deal with 5 years of control. but the OL was literally 'worst we've ever seen' bad so im inclined to believe that was the biggest trigger on outlier results. if jones comes back healthy i think the odds would be on him to beat out a rookie since its likely not going to be one of the top 2.

In comment 16306392 Sean said:

Quote:

I agree, but as you mention the Jones contract is in the way. If it was up to me, I'd absorb the $69M cap hit in 2024 and be done with Jones. It would be historic, but it clears the deck for 2025 and you'd get that $22M back dead cap charge back. I don't know if it could be done with the ACL, but that would be my thinking. Take all the medicine next year.

you know whose thinking that isn't? everyone in the giants org whose job is on the line next year. id imagine they are all very unlikely to sacrifice 10% of their cap and a qb they like to at least some extent for whoever takes their job(s) in 2025.

What I would do:
1. Cut Jones (I'm going to assume that's possible despite his injury but I don't know if it is)
2. Leave this draft with two of the following QBs (1 from each group): (Group 1)Daniels/Maye/Nix/Penix; (Group 2)Beck/Pratt/Ward/Hartman... This list will certainly change between now and April

What I think the Giants will do:
1. Sign a vet (Tannehill, Brissett, etc.)to start the season as Jones recovers
2. Possibly draft one of the Group 2-type QBs if the opportunity arises
3. Give the starting job back to Jones at some point next season

Are you sure that EPA does not account for rushing?

In comment 16306429 Go Terps said:

Quote:

What I would do: 1. Cut Jones (I'm going to assume that's possible despite his injury but I don't know if it is) 2. Leave this draft with two of the following QBs (1 from each group): (Group 1)Daniels/Maye/Nix/Penix; (Group 2)Beck/Pratt/Ward/Hartman... This list will certainly change between now and April What I think the Giants will do: 1. Sign a vet (Tannehill, Brissett, etc.)to start the season as Jones recovers 2. Possibly draft one of the Group 2-type QBs if the opportunity arises 3. Give the starting job back to Jones at some point next season

How does this strategy help Schoen though? We've seen some intense fan outrage (Eli benching, end of Judge), but this level of negligence would be like nothing we've ever seen. The 2024 season would be very uncomfortable and I think there is a good chance they'd all be fired after the season.

In comment 16306438 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Are you sure that EPA does not account for rushing?

it's per dropback so it certainly shouldnt include designed running plays which likely made up the majority of jones' yardage last year.

I'd also look to cut or trade Jones. If it's a cut I'd do post June 1 to spread a portion of the bonus hit into 2025.

Caleb, Drake, Jayden and if nobody else appeals to them, they should take a long hard look at Fields if he hits the market.

In comment 16306440 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16306429 Go Terps said: Quote: What I would do: 1. Cut Jones (I'm going to assume that's possible despite his injury but I don't know if it is) 2. Leave this draft with two of the following QBs (1 from each group): (Group 1)Daniels/Maye/Nix/Penix; (Group 2)Beck/Pratt/Ward/Hartman... This list will certainly change between now and April What I think the Giants will do: 1. Sign a vet (Tannehill, Brissett, etc.)to start the season as Jones recovers 2. Possibly draft one of the Group 2-type QBs if the opportunity arises 3. Give the starting job back to Jones at some point next season How does this strategy help Schoen though? We've seen some intense fan outrage (Eli benching, end of Judge), but this level of negligence would be like nothing we've ever seen. The 2024 season would be very uncomfortable and I think there is a good chance they'd all be fired after the season.

Help me understand this...I keep seeing this brought up, but why cut Jones? Why not draft a Rookie and keep Jones. He'll probably start the year on pup and the rookie, or a vet starts the year. If you cut him, you take a huge hit. Why would you elect to take that hit, when you can cut him the following year and have no cap hit. That decision just seems like it would be out of spite and no logic.

In comment 16306440 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16306429 Go Terps said: Quote: What I would do: 1. Cut Jones (I'm going to assume that's possible despite his injury but I don't know if it is) 2. Leave this draft with two of the following QBs (1 from each group): (Group 1)Daniels/Maye/Nix/Penix; (Group 2)Beck/Pratt/Ward/Hartman... This list will certainly change between now and April What I think the Giants will do: 1. Sign a vet (Tannehill, Brissett, etc.)to start the season as Jones recovers 2. Possibly draft one of the Group 2-type QBs if the opportunity arises 3. Give the starting job back to Jones at some point next season How does this strategy help Schoen though? We've seen some intense fan outrage (Eli benching, end of Judge), but this level of negligence would be like nothing we've ever seen. The 2024 season would be very uncomfortable and I think there is a good chance they'd all be fired after the season.

it doesn't.

remember this - many of this years QBs are 6th year CFB players. penix and bo nix are going to be 24 year old rookies, so just 3 years younger than Jones except lacking the 2+ years with Daboll in system.

i think nix more than penix is in the group of the most likely players they may draft, so im not saying age vetoes them - the point is jones won games for them and they signed him for extra years over the tag because they like him. there is very little reason to take the penalty of dumping him early bc of 4 bad games. they need to give themselves a quality option under control beyond next year and the best way to do that is 5 years of control on higher grade prospect than devito and then seeing how things play out on the field.

In comment 16306469 JOrthman said:

Quote:

In comment 16306440 Sean said: Quote: In comment 16306429 Go Terps said: Quote: What I would do: 1. Cut Jones (I'm going to assume that's possible despite his injury but I don't know if it is) 2. Leave this draft with two of the following QBs (1 from each group): (Group 1)Daniels/Maye/Nix/Penix; (Group 2)Beck/Pratt/Ward/Hartman... This list will certainly change between now and April What I think the Giants will do: 1. Sign a vet (Tannehill, Brissett, etc.)to start the season as Jones recovers 2. Possibly draft one of the Group 2-type QBs if the opportunity arises 3. Give the starting job back to Jones at some point next season How does this strategy help Schoen though? We've seen some intense fan outrage (Eli benching, end of Judge), but this level of negligence would be like nothing we've ever seen. The 2024 season would be very uncomfortable and I think there is a good chance they'd all be fired after the season. Help me understand this...I keep seeing this brought up, but why cut Jones? Why not draft a Rookie and keep Jones. He'll probably start the year on pup and the rookie, or a vet starts the year. If you cut him, you take a huge hit. Why would you elect to take that hit, when you can cut him the following year and have no cap hit. That decision just seems like it would be out of spite and no logic.

bbi's 2023 credo.

For me, it's just having a clean slate and moving on. I also think it is awkward for the incumbent QB who just got $81M guaranteed and is only 26 years old to be on the roster with a new rookie QB who was drafted high.

I think for the Giants (and Jones) it would be better to move on. Kerry Collins asked for his release when the Giants drafted Manning.

So based on that we're supposed to believe Jones was the 7th best passer in the NFL in 2022?

In comment 16306484 Sean said:

Quote:

For me, it's just having a clean slate and moving on. I also think it is awkward for the incumbent QB who just got $81M guaranteed and is only 26 years old to be on the roster with a new rookie QB who was drafted high. I think for the Giants (and Jones) it would be better to move on. Kerry Collins asked for his release when the Giants drafted Manning.

The rest of the league does it all the time. Hurtz was drafted when they had QB's on the roster that had far more accomplishments than Jones.

and he had been to a SB with the team.

In comment 16306498 JOrthman said:

Quote:

and he had been to a SB with the team.

Plenty wanted to stick with Collins and draft offensive line then too. Paul Schwartz has an infamous headline saying Go Get Gallery from 04.

In comment 16306498 JOrthman said:

Quote:

and he had been to a SB with the team.

And then Collins was released and the Giants signed Warner.

In comment 16306502 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 16306498 JOrthman said: Quote: and he had been to a SB with the team. Plenty wanted to stick with Collins and draft offensive line then too. Paul Schwartz has an infamous headline saying Go Get Gallery from 04.

You guys are both missing the point of me saying that. It was one of two examples in which a team drafted the air apparent. If you don't like the Giants example, look at the Eagles or countless other teams. Alex Smith had been to the playoffs multiple times when they drafted Mahones.

The Giants practically can't cut Jones until he can pass a physical. If they cut him today, he'd file a grievance and win his 2025 injury guarantee. His 2024 cap charge would then be like 92M.

The quarterback roster scenarios aren't particularly complicated. DeVito is an ERFA and presumably a lock at < 1M next year. If he shows he can keep the lights on, he has a place next year.

Taylor isn't going to command 5M AAV in his next go. He'll be any easy player to retain.

So the Giants either PUP Jones and run it back exactly as it is, or they PUP Jones and replace Taylor or DeVito with a rookie.

In comment 16306485 Go Terps said:

Quote:

So based on that we're supposed to believe Jones was the 7th best passer in the NFL in 2022?

if you are the fan of EPA you say you are, yes. yards per attempt is a dramatically overrated stat that says as much about the receivers as it does the QB (see Tua's y/a pre-Hill). receiving yards per game by receivers are one of the most stable predictive stats every year, so if you dont have those players you arent going to throw for the most yards per attempt.

total QBR (which does include rushing) was pretty close to EPA. they had him as 13th best passing and 4th best running.



none of these statistics matter nearly as much as whatever the internal analysis was, and that's the result that spoke loudest. they gave him a very aggressive contract when they could have tagged him just as easily as they declined the 5yo the year before.

Thanks, I figured as much.

JOrthman - I'm not saying not to draft a QB high, I'm just saying it'll be an awkward situation for Jones and the team.

In comment 16306472 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16306440 Sean said: Quote: In comment 16306429 Go Terps said: Quote: What I would do: 1. Cut Jones (I'm going to assume that's possible despite his injury but I don't know if it is) 2. Leave this draft with two of the following QBs (1 from each group): (Group 1)Daniels/Maye/Nix/Penix; (Group 2)Beck/Pratt/Ward/Hartman... This list will certainly change between now and April What I think the Giants will do: 1. Sign a vet (Tannehill, Brissett, etc.)to start the season as Jones recovers 2. Possibly draft one of the Group 2-type QBs if the opportunity arises 3. Give the starting job back to Jones at some point next season How does this strategy help Schoen though? We've seen some intense fan outrage (Eli benching, end of Judge), but this level of negligence would be like nothing we've ever seen. The 2024 season would be very uncomfortable and I think there is a good chance they'd all be fired after the season. it doesn't. remember this - many of this years QBs are 6th year CFB players. penix and bo nix are going to be 24 year old rookies, so just 3 years younger than Jones except lacking the 2+ years with Daboll in system. i think nix more than penix is in the group of the most likely players they may draft, so im not saying age vetoes them - the point is jones won games for them and they signed him for extra years over the tag because they like him. there is very little reason to take the penalty of dumping him early bc of 4 bad games. they need to give themselves a quality option under control beyond next year and the best way to do that is 5 years of control on higher grade prospect than devito and then seeing how things play out on the field.

I don't necessarily disagree, but if they take the out, the money isn't intolerable to eat. They're essentially doing so with the Golladay money and they were willing to do so despite really needing the money for other things.

The idea of drafting a 24 year old Bo Nix as QB just seems like window dressing/half measures to me. Mediocre in the SEC, goes to the Pac-12 where the competition isn't as strong and puts up numbers. Not excited for it. Almost smells like appeasement.

In comment 16306509 JOrthman said:

Quote:

In comment 16306502 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 16306498 JOrthman said: Quote: and he had been to a SB with the team. Plenty wanted to stick with Collins and draft offensive line then too. Paul Schwartz has an infamous headline saying Go Get Gallery from 04. You guys are both missing the point of me saying that. It was one of two examples in which a team drafted the air apparent. If you don't like the Giants example, look at the Eagles or countless other teams. Alex Smith had been to the playoffs multiple times when they drafted Mahones.

you are correct. hurts was drafted in 2020 about 10 months after wentz got extended for $144m and $108m in guarantees.

trey lance was drafted with jimmy g under contract (and we all know how that ended up with purdy).

rivers was drafted with drew brees in SD and sat for 2 years.

love drafted with rodgers and sat for 3 years.

it is not that uncommon to take a qb in round 1 while a starter is still under contract (especially if that starter isnt elite and has injury concerns).

Schoen f'd up...they only needed to tag him.

Simple as that.

In comment 16306536 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

I don't necessarily disagree, but if they take the out, the money isn't intolerable to eat. They're essentially doing so with the Golladay money and they were willing to do so despite really needing the money for other things. The idea of drafting a 24 year old Bo Nix as QB just seems like window dressing/half measures to me. Mediocre in the SEC, goes to the Pac-12 where the competition isn't as strong and puts up numbers. Not excited for it. Almost smells like appeasement.

Caleb Williams plays in the same P12. Younger yes, but also a lot more turnovers. The offense Nix is in is pretty low risk and that's the type of thing i think only a head coach/oc can translate but he had basically the fewest turnover worthy plays in all of CFB the last 2 years. Remember where Josh Allen came from and what he turned into. I think Nix is in a group they will evaluate (along with Daniels, Penix, Mccarthy obviously Maye/Caleb if they are in reach). this is a better QB class than the prior 2 and they are going to have the ammo to get someone they like somewhere in rd 1.

On the finances you are wrong - cutting Golladay didnt cost them 22m more than keeping him would have this year - as it would to cut jones and 'take the medicine' next year. he would have cost more to cut than keep in 2022, which is why they didnt cut him even when he was a wasted roster spot. they waited to cut him until cutting him saved more money than the dead $.

In comment 16306549 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16306536 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: I don't necessarily disagree, but if they take the out, the money isn't intolerable to eat. They're essentially doing so with the Golladay money and they were willing to do so despite really needing the money for other things. The idea of drafting a 24 year old Bo Nix as QB just seems like window dressing/half measures to me. Mediocre in the SEC, goes to the Pac-12 where the competition isn't as strong and puts up numbers. Not excited for it. Almost smells like appeasement. Caleb Williams plays in the same P12. Younger yes, but also a lot more turnovers. The offense Nix is in is pretty low risk and that's the type of thing i think only a head coach/oc can translate but he had basically the fewest turnover worthy plays in all of CFB the last 2 years. Remember where Josh Allen came from and what he turned into. I think Nix is in a group they will evaluate (along with Daniels, Penix, Mccarthy obviously Maye/Caleb if they are in reach). this is a better QB class than the prior 2 and they are going to have the ammo to get someone they like somewhere in rd 1. On the finances you are wrong - cutting Golladay didnt cost them 22m more than keeping him would have this year - as it would to cut jones and 'take the medicine' next year. he would have cost more to cut than keep in 2022, which is why they didnt cut him even when he was a wasted roster spot. they waited to cut him until cutting him saved more money than the dead $.

Am I misunderstanding what's been phrased as an 'out' in the deal after '24?

In comment 16306528 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

none of these statistics matter nearly as much as whatever the internal analysis was, and that's the result that spoke loudest. they gave him a very aggressive contract when they could have tagged him just as easily as they declined the 5yo the year before.

We've beaten this to death, but very aggressive is debatable at a minimum of 2/82M. Carr effectively got 2/70M if I remember correctly.

I'd categorize this average aggressive.

always drafting QBs, BUT, for a team with LOTS of needs, you want to use 2 high picks on QBs PLUS chines and take a 69 million cap hit, eliminating FA?
On what planet does this strategy add up.?
There is ZERO chance ownership will sign off on this “strategy”.

I certainly agree that their actions spoke loudest about his 2022.

Now we're all enjoying the results.

in a new QB and still keeping Jones is nauseating.

I don't want to see Jones play anymore at that point. There is nothing else to discover. He is who he is - a mediocre QB who occasionally has a surprisingly good game surrounded by too many bad performances. Like that's going to suddenly change. That bet is decided.

If Dabka can make DeVito look interesting imagine what they would do with an elite talent...

I'd remove Jones because I don't trust ownership not to interfere somehow on his behalf. They already have.

In comment 16306551 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

Am I misunderstanding what's been phrased as an 'out' in the deal after '24?

The out after 2024 is that he has no more new cash guaranteed to him if he's cut before 2025.

He has 11.1M in amortized bonus monies attached to 2025 and 2026 respectively. The 2026 cap charge would accelerate if he's a pre-June 1 cut, for a total dead cap charge of 22.2M on 2025.

The net cap savings would be 19.3M on 2025 and 47.5M on 2026.

In comment 16306551 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 16306549 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16306536 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: I don't necessarily disagree, but if they take the out, the money isn't intolerable to eat. They're essentially doing so with the Golladay money and they were willing to do so despite really needing the money for other things. The idea of drafting a 24 year old Bo Nix as QB just seems like window dressing/half measures to me. Mediocre in the SEC, goes to the Pac-12 where the competition isn't as strong and puts up numbers. Not excited for it. Almost smells like appeasement. Caleb Williams plays in the same P12. Younger yes, but also a lot more turnovers. The offense Nix is in is pretty low risk and that's the type of thing i think only a head coach/oc can translate but he had basically the fewest turnover worthy plays in all of CFB the last 2 years. Remember where Josh Allen came from and what he turned into. I think Nix is in a group they will evaluate (along with Daniels, Penix, Mccarthy obviously Maye/Caleb if they are in reach). this is a better QB class than the prior 2 and they are going to have the ammo to get someone they like somewhere in rd 1. On the finances you are wrong - cutting Golladay didnt cost them 22m more than keeping him would have this year - as it would to cut jones and 'take the medicine' next year. he would have cost more to cut than keep in 2022, which is why they didnt cut him even when he was a wasted roster spot. they waited to cut him until cutting him saved more money than the dead $. Am I misunderstanding what's been phrased as an 'out' in the deal after '24?

you are misunderstanding when the out is available. below is jones contract (otc) follow the 2024 line over and cutting him accelerates an extra $22m hit from future years to bring the total dead $ in 2024 to $69m.

after 2024 (ahead of 2025 season) the out is that they can cut him with $22m of dead money, but save a net of $19m by cutting him since his cap # is scheduled at 41.6m.

In comment 16306553 christian said:

Quote:

In comment 16306528 Eric on Li said: Quote: none of these statistics matter nearly as much as whatever the internal analysis was, and that's the result that spoke loudest. they gave him a very aggressive contract when they could have tagged him just as easily as they declined the 5yo the year before. We've beaten this to death, but very aggressive is debatable at a minimum of 2/82M. Carr effectively got 2/70M if I remember correctly. I'd categorize this average aggressive.

my memory is that most expected carr to do better on open market than jones extended with threat of tag. it was certainly a comp we were keeping an eye that jones beat.

In comment 16306296 Go Terps said:

Quote:

The OL has been poor. So has Jones. Both can be true. In Jones's case his performance has been consistent going back to Duke. This is nothing new. The aim is to improve the OL for a QB who is much better than Jones.

Can this be pinned to the top of this forum? Fans struggle to grasp this.

In comment 16306580 Eric on Li said:

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In comment 16306551 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 16306549 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16306536 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: I don't necessarily disagree, but if they take the out, the money isn't intolerable to eat. They're essentially doing so with the Golladay money and they were willing to do so despite really needing the money for other things. The idea of drafting a 24 year old Bo Nix as QB just seems like window dressing/half measures to me. Mediocre in the SEC, goes to the Pac-12 where the competition isn't as strong and puts up numbers. Not excited for it. Almost smells like appeasement. Caleb Williams plays in the same P12. Younger yes, but also a lot more turnovers. The offense Nix is in is pretty low risk and that's the type of thing i think only a head coach/oc can translate but he had basically the fewest turnover worthy plays in all of CFB the last 2 years. Remember where Josh Allen came from and what he turned into. I think Nix is in a group they will evaluate (along with Daniels, Penix, Mccarthy obviously Maye/Caleb if they are in reach). this is a better QB class than the prior 2 and they are going to have the ammo to get someone they like somewhere in rd 1. On the finances you are wrong - cutting Golladay didnt cost them 22m more than keeping him would have this year - as it would to cut jones and 'take the medicine' next year. he would have cost more to cut than keep in 2022, which is why they didnt cut him even when he was a wasted roster spot. they waited to cut him until cutting him saved more money than the dead $. Am I misunderstanding what's been phrased as an 'out' in the deal after '24? you are misunderstanding when the out is available. below is jones contract (otc) follow the 2024 line over and cutting him accelerates an extra $22m hit from future years to bring the total dead $ in 2024 to $69m. after 2024 (ahead of 2025 season) the out is that they can cut him with $22m of dead money, but save a net of $19m by cutting him since his cap # is scheduled at 41.6m.

I dont think I misunderstood then but I may have made my point poorly. I'm not suggesting they should cut him at any point before the end of 2024.

In comment 16306569 Go Terps said:

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I certainly agree that their actions spoke loudest about his 2022. Now we're all enjoying the results.

Some seemingly more than others.

In comment 16306589 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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I dont think I misunderstood then but I may have made my point poorly. I'm not suggesting they should cut him at any point before the end of 2024.

cutting jones this offseason was what the original post suggested (that sean commented on and I replied to).

In comment 16306536 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 16306472 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16306440 Sean said: Quote: In comment 16306429 Go Terps said: Quote: What I would do: 1. Cut Jones (I'm going to assume that's possible despite his injury but I don't know if it is) 2. Leave this draft with two of the following QBs (1 from each group): (Group 1)Daniels/Maye/Nix/Penix; (Group 2)Beck/Pratt/Ward/Hartman... This list will certainly change between now and April What I think the Giants will do: 1. Sign a vet (Tannehill, Brissett, etc.)to start the season as Jones recovers 2. Possibly draft one of the Group 2-type QBs if the opportunity arises 3. Give the starting job back to Jones at some point next season How does this strategy help Schoen though? We've seen some intense fan outrage (Eli benching, end of Judge), but this level of negligence would be like nothing we've ever seen. The 2024 season would be very uncomfortable and I think there is a good chance they'd all be fired after the season. it doesn't. remember this - many of this years QBs are 6th year CFB players. penix and bo nix are going to be 24 year old rookies, so just 3 years younger than Jones except lacking the 2+ years with Daboll in system. i think nix more than penix is in the group of the most likely players they may draft, so im not saying age vetoes them - the point is jones won games for them and they signed him for extra years over the tag because they like him. there is very little reason to take the penalty of dumping him early bc of 4 bad games. they need to give themselves a quality option under control beyond next year and the best way to do that is 5 years of control on higher grade prospect than devito and then seeing how things play out on the field. I don't necessarily disagree, but if they take the out, the money isn't intolerable to eat. They're essentially doing so with the Golladay money and they were willing to do so despite really needing the money for other things. The idea of drafting a 24 year old Bo Nix as QB just seems like window dressing/half measures to me. Mediocre in the SEC, goes to the Pac-12 where the competition isn't as strong and puts up numbers. Not excited for it. Almost smells like appeasement.

In comment 16306582 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

none of these statistics matter nearly as much as whatever the internal analysis was, and that's the result that spoke loudest. they gave him a very aggressive contract when they could have tagged him just as easily as they declined the 5yo the year before. We've beaten this to death, but very aggressive is debatable at a minimum of 2/82M. Carr effectively got 2/70M if I remember correctly. I'd categorize this average aggressive. my memory is that most expected carr to do better on open market than jones extended with threat of tag. it was certainly a comp we were keeping an eye that jones beat.

Sure. My point is that I don't think either qualifies as very aggressive.

The 35-41 practical AAV range is in the bottom third of veteran + starter agreements.

I'd categorize Jones's agreement as more than they should have, but less than they could have.

In comment 16306588 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

In comment 16306296 Go Terps said: Quote: The OL has been poor. So has Jones. Both can be true. In Jones's case his performance has been consistent going back to Duke. This is nothing new. The aim is to improve the OL for a QB who is much better than Jones. Can this be pinned to the top of this forum? Fans struggle to grasp this.

It won't matter. A sizeable chunk of this board will not have conclusion on Jones until he is surrounded by a foolproof supporting cast on and off the field.

And even then, they will likely want multiple years to for complete proof.

Other have said it so well. If Jones was available on free agency from another team, NOBODY on this board would want anything to do with him. Even as a stop-gap solution.

In comment 16306591 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16306569 Go Terps said: Quote: I certainly agree that their actions spoke loudest about his 2022. Now we're all enjoying the results. Some seemingly more than others.

Yeah it's been a great five years watching this level of football and being told it's good. Great experience.

In comment 16306188 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 16306158 jinkies said: Quote: In comment 16306144 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: In comment 16305337 Eric from BBI said: Quote: Exactly regarding the remedial offense. So why did Daboll go along with this? Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse? They ran a remedial offense because the offensive line was so poor. You guys act like a simple offense is bad. It can be very good. You do not need to do a lot well. It is much better to a few things well then try to do a bunch of things mediocre. Just me here, but if I hired a new coordinator and installed a QB's 3rd offense in 4 years, I would make it less complicated, not because of the talent of the QB but because it is the intelligent thing to do. It worked to the tune of coach of the year. Everyone here gets far too much wrong to be talking like experts. When anyone speaks with CERTAINTY like they KNOW, what Daboll or Schoen think or thought, you can only be certain of ONE THING. That you are listening to an idiot. Nobody runs an entirely remedial offense because of the OL. Never happened in the history of the NFL. You design the offense first and foremost around the QB. And of course you make provisions when the OL fails. The 2022 gameplan was scaled back from the jump. At no point did the Giants show a willingness to play vertical football. This shouldn't be a surprise. They have been scaling back the offense since the beginning, and Jones has pretty much only played in different flavors of remedial offense since he joined the Giants. Wrong, very wrong. Design and offense is the wrong description. Let's use game plan. Only an idiot would install a downfield game-plan with an OL that can't block long enough for it to succeed.

I think there are also idiots who think that a vertical passing game takes any longer to execute than a horizontal short passing game.

The part that takes longer is waiting for WRs to run open (regardless of whether those routes are vertical or horizontal) rather than throwing with anticipation.

I won't guess at Daboll's intent with the offensive scheme here, but I do know that a vertical passing game doesn't necessarily require longer pass pro sets than a horizontal passing game with the sort of concepts that Daboll/Kafka run.

In comment 16306603 christian said:

Quote:

In comment 16306582 Eric on Li said: Quote: none of these statistics matter nearly as much as whatever the internal analysis was, and that's the result that spoke loudest. they gave him a very aggressive contract when they could have tagged him just as easily as they declined the 5yo the year before. We've beaten this to death, but very aggressive is debatable at a minimum of 2/82M. Carr effectively got 2/70M if I remember correctly. I'd categorize this average aggressive. my memory is that most expected carr to do better on open market than jones extended with threat of tag. it was certainly a comp we were keeping an eye that jones beat. Sure. My point is that I don't think either qualifies as very aggressive. The 35-41 practical AAV range is in the bottom third of veteran + starter agreements. I'd categorize Jones's agreement as more than they should have, but less than they could have.

what argument was there for higher? he's at 40m with incentives that could have pushed to $44m. next above that are/were:

allen $43m
mahomes $45m
watson $46m
murray $46.1m
wilson $49m

hurts, herbert, burrow, lamar are all over $50m but none of those were done deals at the time.

jones' contract was aggressive (ive said that since day it was announced). they bet on him for 2 years and lost year 1 and behind the sticks on year 2 bc of the injury.

In comment 16306321 Sean said:

Quote:

The more I think what Terps outlined makes the most sense. The only difference is I don't think it'll be a veteran, I think a young QB could be brought in via trade. Fields and Jones have a similar game, Daboll is good at developing QB's and maybe he gets something out of Fields. His contract lines up where he'd be on a rookie deal in 2024 and potentially the 5th year option in 2025. He would be aligned with Jones in that Schoen could pick up his option in 2025 while Jones is completely off the books in 2026. This assumes Jones is released after next season. The Giants would then decide what to do with Fields in 2026 or have no QB obligations then. Financially it's not a bad strategy to keep all draft assets and build while you manage the mistake the Jones contract was. A way to do this is bring in a highly talented QB who's been stuck with a poor offensive staff. Schoen could draft a QB, but the Giants are playing themselves out of Williams/Maye and probably Daniels. Everyone else is going to be a polarizing prospect with flaws most likely. I think Fields is not a bad play. Trade a 3rd for him. He can compete with Jones & DeVito and probably win the job. As an aside, couldn't you also see the Eagles bringing in Fields? That's a franchise that is always bringing in QBs.

This is interesting. If you want to throw a little Maranoia into it, that would also put Arch Manning into play as the pivot play in 2026. You know John Mara would find that appealing.

In comment 16306607 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16306591 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16306569 Go Terps said: Quote: I certainly agree that their actions spoke loudest about his 2022. Now we're all enjoying the results. Some seemingly more than others. Yeah it's been a great five years watching this level of football and being told it's good. Great experience.

did you enjoy last year? or did you abstain from both bbi and broadcast television?

In comment 16306603 christian said:

Quote:

In comment 16306582 Eric on Li said: Quote: none of these statistics matter nearly as much as whatever the internal analysis was, and that's the result that spoke loudest. they gave him a very aggressive contract when they could have tagged him just as easily as they declined the 5yo the year before. We've beaten this to death, but very aggressive is debatable at a minimum of 2/82M. Carr effectively got 2/70M if I remember correctly. I'd categorize this average aggressive. my memory is that most expected carr to do better on open market than jones extended with threat of tag. it was certainly a comp we were keeping an eye that jones beat. Sure. My point is that I don't think either qualifies as very aggressive. The 35-41 practical AAV range is in the bottom third of veteran + starter agreements. I'd categorize Jones's agreement as more than they should have, but less than they could have.

I get what you're saying. You're right. They could have committed to the third full year and didn't. Nevertheless, it does feel like they paid close to the top of the market. Which really coincides with a creeping critique of Giants management: They fall in love with their players and have a hard time being objective about evaluations of their marquee draft selections.

And whatever one thought of the deal in the moment, in hindsight, it's a complete disaster. Look at the producton we got for that money. And there's a non-zero chance Jones never throws another pass for the Giants.

In comment 16306617 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16306607 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 16306591 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16306569 Go Terps said: Quote: I certainly agree that their actions spoke loudest about his 2022. Now we're all enjoying the results. Some seemingly more than others. Yeah it's been a great five years watching this level of football and being told it's good. Great experience. did you enjoy last year? or did you abstain from both bbi and broadcast television?

The Minnesota game was fun, but that only lasted a few days before the Eagles reminded us all of where the Giants (and Jones) really are. I didn't leave the season with a good feeling, and I'm surprised so many keep pointing back to it like a great achievement in team history. Standards have plummeted.

I don't care that much about wildcard games if I don't believe the Giants are building towards a championship. And I was positive the Giants were not building towards a championship with Daniel Jones. Not just in 2022, but ever.

I do give the coaches and team a lot of credit. They played well enough to get the result. Jones too. Just no long term faith.

In comment 16306630 Go Terps said:

Quote:

The Minnesota game was fun, but that only lasted a few days before the Eagles reminded us all of where the Giants (and Jones) really are. I didn't leave the season with a good feeling, and I'm surprised so many keep pointing back to it like a great achievement in team history. Standards have plummeted.

it was year 1 of a new regime that had a blank slate. they turned over the majority of the roster, ate a ton of dead $, and presumably had the autonomy to do as they pleased - like declining the 5yo.

it's possible to be critical of mistakes they've made without seeing ghosts that date back before they got here.

their biggest mistakes have been on the OL which trace from their first FA priorities (glowinski, feliciano) to their first draft (neal, ezeudu), to that same eagle game, and now through their intial 53 roster decisions and worst performances early this year that sank the season.

In comment 16306613 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16306603 christian said: Quote: In comment 16306582 Eric on Li said: Quote: none of these statistics matter nearly as much as whatever the internal analysis was, and that's the result that spoke loudest. they gave him a very aggressive contract when they could have tagged him just as easily as they declined the 5yo the year before. We've beaten this to death, but very aggressive is debatable at a minimum of 2/82M. Carr effectively got 2/70M if I remember correctly. I'd categorize this average aggressive. my memory is that most expected carr to do better on open market than jones extended with threat of tag. it was certainly a comp we were keeping an eye that jones beat. Sure. My point is that I don't think either qualifies as very aggressive. The 35-41 practical AAV range is in the bottom third of veteran + starter agreements. I'd categorize Jones's agreement as more than they should have, but less than they could have. what argument was there for higher? he's at 40m with incentives that could have pushed to $44m. next above that are/were: allen $43m mahomes $45m watson $46m murray $46.1m wilson $49m hurts, herbert, burrow, lamar are all over $50m but none of those were done deals at the time. jones' contract was aggressive (ive said that since day it was announced). they bet on him for 2 years and lost year 1 and behind the sticks on year 2 bc of the injury.

You do know that Schoen knew well what Lamar, Herbert, Hurts and Burrow were likley to get. It wasn't a freaking top secret. So you cannot dimiss their contracts.
I think it was too much $$ also, but not far out of line.

go to Spotrac, go to the player's individual page, look at the "Cash AAV" column on the far right, and see for yourself.

The only veteran QBs who have signed contracts with significantly higher AAVs, for likely years of service, than Daniel Jones are Lamar Jackson and DeShaun Watson.

Jones is very comparable, on AAV, to Dak, Russell Wilson and Matt Stafford. As the figures look now, Jones AAV could dip a bit if he goes out after the third year of his contract, but who knows if he will.

Rookie extension AAVs (Allen, Herbert, Mahomes, Hurts, Burrow) as accurately shown in the Cash AAV columns, are very different from, and lower than, the news headline numbers mentioned in this thread because of the spread of money over existing years of control.

In comment 16306646 section125 said:

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In comment 16306613 Eric on Li said: Quote You do know that Schoen knew well what Lamar, Herbert, Hurts and Burrow were likley to get. It wasn't a freaking top secret. So you cannot dimiss their contracts. I think it was too much $$ also, but not far out of line.

Glad you sign off on the deal. How are you feeling about the results? Jones doesn't belong in the neighborhood with those QBs. He's a $10M QB who got $40M per year

In comment 16306646 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 16306613 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16306603 christian said: Quote: In comment 16306582 Eric on Li said: Quote: none of these statistics matter nearly as much as whatever the internal analysis was, and that's the result that spoke loudest. they gave him a very aggressive contract when they could have tagged him just as easily as they declined the 5yo the year before. We've beaten this to death, but very aggressive is debatable at a minimum of 2/82M. Carr effectively got 2/70M if I remember correctly. I'd categorize this average aggressive. my memory is that most expected carr to do better on open market than jones extended with threat of tag. it was certainly a comp we were keeping an eye that jones beat. Sure. My point is that I don't think either qualifies as very aggressive. The 35-41 practical AAV range is in the bottom third of veteran + starter agreements. I'd categorize Jones's agreement as more than they should have, but less than they could have. what argument was there for higher? he's at 40m with incentives that could have pushed to $44m. next above that are/were: allen $43m mahomes $45m watson $46m murray $46.1m wilson $49m hurts, herbert, burrow, lamar are all over $50m but none of those were done deals at the time. jones' contract was aggressive (ive said that since day it was announced). they bet on him for 2 years and lost year 1 and behind the sticks on year 2 bc of the injury. You do know that Schoen knew well what Lamar, Herbert, Hurts and Burrow were likley to get. It wasn't a freaking top secret. So you cannot dimiss their contracts. I think it was too much $$ also, but not far out of line.

obviously everyone knew where the market was going, but schoen had the choice of franchising jones - at a number almost $10m less than he paid him on average - to make him earn on a deal on that level.

instead he chose to take a 20% discount on top of market to get a deal locked in, presumably because they liked jones. i never said it was out of line but it was aggressive. its not impossible jones comes back and proves them right next year.

In comment 16306650 shyster said:

Quote:

go to Spotrac, go to the player's individual page, look at the "Cash AAV" column on the far right, and see for yourself. The only veteran QBs who have signed contracts with significantly higher AAVs, for likely years of service, than Daniel Jones are Lamar Jackson and DeShaun Watson. Jones is very comparable, on AAV, to Dak, Russell Wilson and Matt Stafford. As the figures look now, Jones AAV could dip a bit if he goes out after the third year of his contract, but who knows if he will. Rookie extension AAVs (Allen, Herbert, Mahomes, Hurts, Burrow) as accurately shown in the Cash AAV columns, are very different from, and lower than, the news headline numbers mentioned in this thread because of the spread of money over existing years of control.

im not familiar with the cash aav acronym (it's kind of an oxymoron) but i think thats showing what otc calls cash flow, which is perhaps the area where jones' deal was most significantly stronger than carrs.


https://overthecap.com/some-thoughts-on-the-jones-carr-and-smith-contracts - ( New Window )

In comment 16306672 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

instead he chose to take a 20% discount on top of market to get a deal locked in, presumably because they liked jones. i never said it was out of line but it was aggressive. its not impossible jones comes back and proves them right next year.

Are you really interested in running this back a 6th year with Jones?

In comment 16306689 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 16306672 Eric on Li said: Quote: instead he chose to take a 20% discount on top of market to get a deal locked in, presumably because they liked jones. i never said it was out of line but it was aggressive. its not impossible jones comes back and proves them right next year. Are you really interested in running this back a 6th year with Jones?

not without a much better backup plan since he's hurt.

they have more draft ammo than they can expect to have in any future season, both with a high pick and the extra 2nd, and probably a better QB class than the last few. obviously light years better than 2022. i think the obvious move is getting 5-7 years of control from a player several levels more talented than devito and letting things work themselves out on the field. if jones doesnt perform they have an out after next year.

.

could prove them right but depends on the issues he had to contend with this season being fixed. He also may not get a chance if they go QB early in round 1 or something else.

I look at his season really coming down to the games of Seattle, Miami and SF. Both AT and SB were out and to me it showed not only how important both players are but that the BD/JS team made some very critical mistakes this offseason. The three rushing efforts against those three teams were amongst the worst in Giants history. That situation coupled with horrific PB makes me wonder on those not factoring this in.

I think the contract at least says they thought Jones was good enough to win with. Not going NEFT was surprising to me and I think says they had some pretty big expectations. The get out of after two years also could have been about other things not going right and making other changes.

In comment 16306615 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

If you want to throw a little Maranoia into it, that would also put Arch Manning into play as the pivot play in 2026. You know John Mara would find that appealing.

If he follows in the footsteps of his uncles, I would expect Arch to play out his full five years of eligibility at Texas (especially if Ewers sticks around another year), which puts him in the 2028 draft.

an absolute laughing stock

In comment 16306689 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 16306672 Eric on Li said: Quote: instead he chose to take a 20% discount on top of market to get a deal locked in, presumably because they liked jones. i never said it was out of line but it was aggressive. its not impossible jones comes back and proves them right next year. Are you really interested in running this back a 6th year with Jones?

sadly it won't matter... We are running this back next year. People don't want to believe it but Jones is going to be here and the odds he loses out to a rookie going into his 3rd year in this system won't happen... that doesn't mean he will finish the year as starter but this is going to be run back.

In comment 16306870 Amtoft said:

Quote:

sadly it won't matter... We are running this back next year. People don't want to believe it but Jones is going to be here and the odds he loses out to a rookie going into his 3rd year in this system won't happen... that doesn't mean he will finish the year as starter but this is going to be run back.

Oh, I'm way ahead of you. Until I see hard proof otherwise - like using a high pick on a QB - I expect Schoen to use the draft and free agency to add more parts for Jones. I'm of the school of thought that Schoen led the charge to keep Jones as his signature move as the NYG GM. And 2023 will be categorized as a throwaway year.

Schoen just doesn't strike me as a quick pivot GM. He very likely believes Daboll is one of the better QB whisperers in the NFL. And if he can do it once with Jones, he can do it again with Jones.

I'm dying to be completely wrong, but Jones is like a cat with nine lives.

The irony in this is telling. If Jones was an available free agent from another team, NOBODY on this board would have a scintilla of interest in him. Absolutely NOBODY.

 

In comment 16306800 jinkies said:

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an absolute laughing stock

What would be the point, since everyone's so anti-tanking

In comment 16306528 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16306485 Go Terps said: Quote: So based on that we're supposed to believe Jones was the 7th best passer in the NFL in 2022? if you are the fan of EPA you say you are, yes. yards per attempt is a dramatically overrated stat that says as much about the receivers as it does the QB (see Tua's y/a pre-Hill). receiving yards per game by receivers are one of the most stable predictive stats every year, so if you dont have those players you arent going to throw for the most yards per attempt. total QBR (which does include rushing) was pretty close to EPA. they had him as 13th best passing and 4th best running. none of these statistics matter nearly as much as whatever the internal analysis was, and that's the result that spoke loudest. they gave him a very aggressive contract when they could have tagged him just as easily as they declined the 5yo the year before.

The article below is on NY/A being one of if not the most important and predictive stats in the NFL. Jones's NY/A in 2022 was 5.74 (24th in the NFL). That was the second highest NY/A of his career (5.92 in 2021).

Jones's career NY/A is 5.46. That ranks him 33rd of the 34 active QBs with at least 1500 pass attempts. Note that the players around him have all been on 3+ teams. Yet we handed him 4/$160M.

Tough to rationalize.


Link - ( New Window )

In comment 16306901 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16306528 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16306485 Go Terps said: Quote: So based on that we're supposed to believe Jones was the 7th best passer in the NFL in 2022? if you are the fan of EPA you say you are, yes. yards per attempt is a dramatically overrated stat that says as much about the receivers as it does the QB (see Tua's y/a pre-Hill). receiving yards per game by receivers are one of the most stable predictive stats every year, so if you dont have those players you arent going to throw for the most yards per attempt. total QBR (which does include rushing) was pretty close to EPA. they had him as 13th best passing and 4th best running. none of these statistics matter nearly as much as whatever the internal analysis was, and that's the result that spoke loudest. they gave him a very aggressive contract when they could have tagged him just as easily as they declined the 5yo the year before. The article below is on NY/A being one of if not the most important and predictive stats in the NFL. Jones's NY/A in 2022 was 5.74 (24th in the NFL). That was the second highest NY/A of his career (5.92 in 2021). Jones's career NY/A is 5.46. That ranks him 33rd of the 34 active QBs with at least 1500 pass attempts. Note that the players around him have all been on 3+ teams. Yet we handed him 4/$160M. Tough to rationalize. Link - ( New Window )

That is such a weird stat in terms of team success though. Lawrence is the only top QB not in Top 17, but at the same point you have a number ranked highly who have been losers in the NFL like Jameis Winston, Kirk Cousins, etc. You will get no argument from me that Jones is overpaid, but NY/A I don’t think is your best argument.

In comment 16306901 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16306528 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16306485 Go Terps said: Quote: So based on that we're supposed to believe Jones was the 7th best passer in the NFL in 2022? if you are the fan of EPA you say you are, yes. yards per attempt is a dramatically overrated stat that says as much about the receivers as it does the QB (see Tua's y/a pre-Hill). receiving yards per game by receivers are one of the most stable predictive stats every year, so if you dont have those players you arent going to throw for the most yards per attempt. total QBR (which does include rushing) was pretty close to EPA. they had him as 13th best passing and 4th best running. none of these statistics matter nearly as much as whatever the internal analysis was, and that's the result that spoke loudest. they gave him a very aggressive contract when they could have tagged him just as easily as they declined the 5yo the year before. The article below is on NY/A being one of if not the most important and predictive stats in the NFL. Jones's NY/A in 2022 was 5.74 (24th in the NFL). That was the second highest NY/A of his career (5.92 in 2021). Jones's career NY/A is 5.46. That ranks him 33rd of the 34 active QBs with at least 1500 pass attempts. Note that the players around him have all been on 3+ teams. Yet we handed him 4/$160M. Tough to rationalize. Link - ( New Window )

jeez didn't realize 1 guy at stadiumtalk.com felt that way. this changes everything.

quick question, since i took the time to read the article you linked, what was your new favorite author's 2nd most important and which QB led the league in it last year?

ANY/A because ANY/A incorporates TD passes, INTs, and sacks.

Credit should be given for scoring points and fault should be given for INTs.

On the other hand, sacks are very tough to assign fully on a QB for obvious reasons. And sometimes a sack is just as good as a punt.

Interceptions can be tough to assign blame to as well. They also can be as good as a punt.

In comment 16307198 ChrisRick said:

Quote:

Interceptions can be tough to assign blame to as well. They also can be as good as a punt.

I think we sometimes get TOO granular with this sort of thing. Yes, some INTs are the fault of the receiver, but I would argue that tends to balance out with receptions that are made on bad throws that might otherwise have been picked off. And some INTs are effectively as good as a punt, but there are also throws that a defender intentionally knocks down because a turnover on downs would be more favorable.

My point is, over time, the INTs that might not be so bad or might not be the QBs fault tend to balance out with the bad throws that a QB gets away with, bailed out by his receivers or by the defense not intercepting it despite the opportunity.

The same applies to TDs - there are some instances where a pass play ends up inside the five yard line and the offense runs it in, but there are also other plays where a receiver takes a short pass and breaks off a long YAC for a TD, which credits the QB for a passing TD when the pass itself might not have been the reason for the TD (at least not to the extent that the receiver's effort after the catch was responsible).

It might not wash away perfectly clean, but it's pretty close. And when we start to get super granular about it, usually that's because we're only looking for the specific examples that support our argument and not those that weaken it.

We also see this with the close losses that we could/should have won - a lot of posters like to claim that the Giants should have beaten the Jets and Bills this year but for a couple of unfortunate mishaps. Those same posters don't do the same exercise for the wins that could/should have been losses but for a couple of fortunate breaks.

It tends to even out over time. Good things happen more frequently for good teams because they're good teams. Bad things happen more frequently for bad teams because they're bad teams. Sometimes you can stay on the plus side of good luck for most of a season. Sometimes you end up on the wrong side of bad luck for most of a season.

Eventually, you are what your record says you are as a team. And likewise, eventually, you are what your stats say you are as a player.

In comment 16307315 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 16307198 ChrisRick said: Quote: Interceptions can be tough to assign blame to as well. They also can be as good as a punt. I think we sometimes get TOO granular with this sort of thing. Yes, some INTs are the fault of the receiver, but I would argue that tends to balance out with receptions that are made on bad throws that might otherwise have been picked off. And some INTs are effectively as good as a punt, but there are also throws that a defender intentionally knocks down because a turnover on downs would be more favorable. My point is, over time, the INTs that might not be so bad or might not be the QBs fault tend to balance out with the bad throws that a QB gets away with, bailed out by his receivers or by the defense not intercepting it despite the opportunity. The same applies to TDs - there are some instances where a pass play ends up inside the five yard line and the offense runs it in, but there are also other plays where a receiver takes a short pass and breaks off a long YAC for a TD, which credits the QB for a passing TD when the pass itself might not have been the reason for the TD (at least not to the extent that the receiver's effort after the catch was responsible). It might not wash away perfectly clean, but it's pretty close. And when we start to get super granular about it, usually that's because we're only looking for the specific examples that support our argument and not those that weaken it. We also see this with the close losses that we could/should have won - a lot of posters like to claim that the Giants should have beaten the Jets and Bills this year but for a couple of unfortunate mishaps. Those same posters don't do the same exercise for the wins that could/should have been losses but for a couple of fortunate breaks. It tends to even out over time. Good things happen more frequently for good teams because they're good teams. Bad things happen more frequently for bad teams because they're bad teams. Sometimes you can stay on the plus side of good luck for most of a season. Sometimes you end up on the wrong side of bad luck for most of a season. Eventually, you are what your record says you are as a team. And likewise, eventually, you are what your stats say you are as a player.

No problem with any of that and the same could be said for sacks as well. Over time things will equal out and you'll be what your numbers say. However, for short-term analysis, I think these points are valuable to consider.

In comment 16307132 bw in dc said:

Quote:

ANY/A because ANY/A incorporates TD passes, INTs, and sacks. Credit should be given for scoring points and fault should be given for INTs. On the other hand, sacks are very tough to assign fully on a QB for obvious reasons. And sometimes a sack is just as good as a punt.

ANY/A moves Jones up to 32 of 34 active players with 1500+ pass attempts. He jumps over Darnold. No way to shine it.

For all his supporters, do you really believe he would succeed even if he was surrounded by a loaded offense? Do you think he would be matching what Purdy is doing in that SF offense? Because I have little doubt he would still struggle.

He's a quarterback that looks the part but doesn't play the part. There is little to no evidence he can play at level to support that contract.

And if Schoen runs it back with Jones as his starter and extends Barkely to a multi year deal, that just shows had badly he screwed up the offseason and how big of a bozo this guy is. I still have hope but you cannot move forward with Jones.

In comment 16307345 ChrisRick said:

Quote:

In comment 16307315 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 16307198 ChrisRick said: Quote: Interceptions can be tough to assign blame to as well. They also can be as good as a punt. I think we sometimes get TOO granular with this sort of thing. Yes, some INTs are the fault of the receiver, but I would argue that tends to balance out with receptions that are made on bad throws that might otherwise have been picked off. And some INTs are effectively as good as a punt, but there are also throws that a defender intentionally knocks down because a turnover on downs would be more favorable. My point is, over time, the INTs that might not be so bad or might not be the QBs fault tend to balance out with the bad throws that a QB gets away with, bailed out by his receivers or by the defense not intercepting it despite the opportunity. The same applies to TDs - there are some instances where a pass play ends up inside the five yard line and the offense runs it in, but there are also other plays where a receiver takes a short pass and breaks off a long YAC for a TD, which credits the QB for a passing TD when the pass itself might not have been the reason for the TD (at least not to the extent that the receiver's effort after the catch was responsible). It might not wash away perfectly clean, but it's pretty close. And when we start to get super granular about it, usually that's because we're only looking for the specific examples that support our argument and not those that weaken it. We also see this with the close losses that we could/should have won - a lot of posters like to claim that the Giants should have beaten the Jets and Bills this year but for a couple of unfortunate mishaps. Those same posters don't do the same exercise for the wins that could/should have been losses but for a couple of fortunate breaks. It tends to even out over time. Good things happen more frequently for good teams because they're good teams. Bad things happen more frequently for bad teams because they're bad teams. Sometimes you can stay on the plus side of good luck for most of a season. Sometimes you end up on the wrong side of bad luck for most of a season. Eventually, you are what your record says you are as a team. And likewise, eventually, you are what your stats say you are as a player. No problem with any of that and the same could be said for sacks as well. Over time things will equal out and you'll be what your numbers say. However, for short-term analysis, I think these points are valuable to consider.

To clarify and add a bit more. Understanding who was at fault for what and why is very important when evaluating new players. For established players who we know what they are, not so much. Although, I could see where an established vet who has been in the same offensive system for most of their career then changes systems might be a good case to dig in deeper to their sacks and interceptions even if we know who they are.

In comment 16307348 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16307132 bw in dc said: Quote: ANY/A because ANY/A incorporates TD passes, INTs, and sacks. Credit should be given for scoring points and fault should be given for INTs. On the other hand, sacks are very tough to assign fully on a QB for obvious reasons. And sometimes a sack is just as good as a punt. ANY/A moves Jones up to 32 of 34 active players with 1500+ pass attempts. He jumps over Darnold. No way to shine it.

and what was jones any/a last year?
along with a league leading int% was it his career best despite a full room of waiver wire receivers making league minimum (and golladay)?

or do you plan to carry on ignoring the relevant context under this regime and the info even you yourself bring to the table that's favorable towards jones?

21st in the NFL. League average was 5.9.

We must have different definitions for "favorable".

In comment 16307391 Go Terps said:

Quote:

21st in the NFL. League average was 5.9.

interesting, so in his age 25 first year with the new regime:

the league leader at protecting the football (your 2nd most important qb stat int%, a stat he had improved in every year of his career until this one).

the 5th best rushing qb.

tied for 2nd with tom brady and justin herbert in game winning drives with 5.

played his best game in a road playoff win (the teams first in over a decade).

and in what you seem to think was his achilles heel worst stat, adjusted passing yards per attempt, he was so bad he was almost exactly league average despite being in an offense severely deficient in receiving weapons.

last year there were 22 receivers who had 1k+ yards and 38 who had 800+. if the nyg had one of them do you think they would have passed for more yards per attempt than they did? or if they'd just started the year with slayton/james/hodgins getting all the reps instead of a bunch of guys currently out of the league?

or was jones somehow supposed to be able to pass for more yardage per attempt than he did throwing to golladay, marcus johnson, and david sills?

In comment 16307390 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16307348 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 16307132 bw in dc said: Quote: ANY/A because ANY/A incorporates TD passes, INTs, and sacks. Credit should be given for scoring points and fault should be given for INTs. On the other hand, sacks are very tough to assign fully on a QB for obvious reasons. And sometimes a sack is just as good as a punt. ANY/A moves Jones up to 32 of 34 active players with 1500+ pass attempts. He jumps over Darnold. No way to shine it. and what was jones any/a last year? along with a league leading int% was it his career best despite a full room of waiver wire receivers making league minimum (and golladay)? or do you plan to carry on ignoring the relevant context under this regime and the info even you yourself bring to the table that's favorable towards jones?

"Full room of waiver wire receivers" is a fun soundbite, but somehow the Giants had three WRs in the top 50 league-wide for separation last year. Those "waiver wire receivers" got open more than most other teams, so I'm not sure why they need to be denigrated just to prop up DJ.

Oh wait, strike that. I know exactly why they need to be denigrated - because any other attempt to prop up DJ starts to crater when you don't.

In comment 16307393 Go Terps said:

Quote:

We must have different definitions for "favorable".

see post above. is leading the league in int% (again, your article's 2nd most important stat) not favorable?

your contention since the day the new regime came in was that they would get rid of him because he was a net negative and anyone was better. the only reason they werent drafting malik willis 5th overall was race. so you said. mara wouldn't allow it, you said. though he did allow them to decline the 5yo.

last year he was a part of them winning their first playoff game in 11 years - enough so that the new regime reversed their prior and didn't just bring him back on the tag, but extended him on an aggressive contract at a moment when they themselves had maximum leverage with a COY trophy still shiny. so naturally you unplugged and went backpacking across tajikistan. nobody is saying he was good this year, the 4 losses he was part of were an abject disaster, but they don't change what happened last year. i have a hunch if there was any argument supporting your view last year you would have been here making it instead of disappearing.

In comment 16307418 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 16307390 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16307348 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 16307132 bw in dc said: Quote: ANY/A because ANY/A incorporates TD passes, INTs, and sacks. Credit should be given for scoring points and fault should be given for INTs. On the other hand, sacks are very tough to assign fully on a QB for obvious reasons. And sometimes a sack is just as good as a punt. ANY/A moves Jones up to 32 of 34 active players with 1500+ pass attempts. He jumps over Darnold. No way to shine it. and what was jones any/a last year? along with a league leading int% was it his career best despite a full room of waiver wire receivers making league minimum (and golladay)? or do you plan to carry on ignoring the relevant context under this regime and the info even you yourself bring to the table that's favorable towards jones? "Full room of waiver wire receivers" is a fun soundbite, but somehow the Giants had three WRs in the top 50 league-wide for separation last year. Those "waiver wire receivers" got open more than most other teams, so I'm not sure why they need to be denigrated just to prop up DJ. Oh wait, strike that. I know exactly why they need to be denigrated - because any other attempt to prop up DJ starts to crater when you don't.

how many games did those 3 start in the first half of the year?

in fact my next post specifically asked whether or not the giants offense would have passed for more yards last year if hodgins/slayton/james had started from game 1 instead of the all the starts from david sills, kenny golladay, and marcus johnson - what do you think?

in week 8 ahead of their week 9 bye and isaiah hodgins week 10 debut in a meaningful role, marcus johnson led nyg receivers in snaps. "waiver wire receiver" is actually an upgrade for him over "currently out of the league receiver".

Five years in and still the argument for Jones can only be based on criticizing the conditions around him.

I can't believe this nightmare is still going on. I will admit I've been dead wrong about how long Jones would be here. Never thought it would get this far. Shame on me for that.

In comment 16307469 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Five years in and still the argument for Jones can only be based on criticizing the conditions around him. I can't believe this nightmare is still going on. I will admit I've been dead wrong about how long Jones would be here. Never thought it would get this far. Shame on me for that.

how does citing jones league best int% (again your article's 2nd most important qb stat) criticizing conditions around him? or 7th best EPA/db?

almost every fresh non-quote post you make is a dodge of a specific question about an inconvenient fact, and in this case i only used stats you yourself sourced into the conversation as important.

In comment 16307444 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16307418 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 16307390 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16307348 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 16307132 bw in dc said: Quote: ANY/A because ANY/A incorporates TD passes, INTs, and sacks. Credit should be given for scoring points and fault should be given for INTs. On the other hand, sacks are very tough to assign fully on a QB for obvious reasons. And sometimes a sack is just as good as a punt. ANY/A moves Jones up to 32 of 34 active players with 1500+ pass attempts. He jumps over Darnold. No way to shine it. and what was jones any/a last year? along with a league leading int% was it his career best despite a full room of waiver wire receivers making league minimum (and golladay)? or do you plan to carry on ignoring the relevant context under this regime and the info even you yourself bring to the table that's favorable towards jones? "Full room of waiver wire receivers" is a fun soundbite, but somehow the Giants had three WRs in the top 50 league-wide for separation last year. Those "waiver wire receivers" got open more than most other teams, so I'm not sure why they need to be denigrated just to prop up DJ. Oh wait, strike that. I know exactly why they need to be denigrated - because any other attempt to prop up DJ starts to crater when you don't. how many games did those 3 start in the first half of the year? in fact my next post specifically asked whether or not the giants offense would have passed for more yards last year if hodgins/slayton/james had started from game 1 instead of the all the starts from david sills, kenny golladay, and marcus johnson - what do you think? in week 8 ahead of their week 9 bye and isaiah hodgins week 10 debut in a meaningful role, marcus johnson led nyg receivers in snaps. "waiver wire receiver" is actually an upgrade for him over "currently out of the league receiver".

Wait a couple of years. Then that argument will also include having a "soon to be out of the league QB" throwing to them.

In comment 16307518 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16307469 Go Terps said: Quote: Five years in and still the argument for Jones can only be based on criticizing the conditions around him. I can't believe this nightmare is still going on. I will admit I've been dead wrong about how long Jones would be here. Never thought it would get this far. Shame on me for that. how does citing jones league best int% (again your article's 2nd most important qb stat) criticizing conditions around him? or 7th best EPA/db?

You did cite those, and then you reached down into the well of excuses.

There is no proof, statistical or otherwise, that Jones is a good quarterback. The Giants paid him - in a normal universe the burden of proof would be on him to show that he is worth the cost. But in this world of crazy pills we cherry pick and make excuses to justify paying this player on spec.

The 2022 Giants went 9-7-1 and had their season ended in embarrassing fashion by a division rival. There is no trophy for that, and for the real teams in this league that would constitute a disappointing season.

This is all so fucking sad.

In comment 16307469 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Five years in and still the argument for Jones can only be based on criticizing the conditions around him. I can't believe this nightmare is still going on. I will admit I've been dead wrong about how long Jones would be here. Never thought it would get this far. Shame on me for that.

I can't figure it out, either. It's the most bizarre situation I have ever seen in my time here at BBI.

I don't who is dumber at this point: Me for not seeing what others apparently see in Jones? Schoen for re-signing Jones? Or the DJFC?

I'll keep repeating what others have wisely pointed out - if Jones was on another team and available in free agency, this board would be near unanimous in having zero interest in signing him.

While I'm not a Barkley guy in the sense of wanting to pay him big dollars, he has been infinitely more productive at his position than Jones. So, I can see why posters would push to keep him. At least defenses fear him.

In comment 16307542 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16307518 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16307469 Go Terps said: Quote: Five years in and still the argument for Jones can only be based on criticizing the conditions around him. I can't believe this nightmare is still going on. I will admit I've been dead wrong about how long Jones would be here. Never thought it would get this far. Shame on me for that. how does citing jones league best int% (again your article's 2nd most important qb stat) criticizing conditions around him? or 7th best EPA/db? You did cite those, and then you reached down into the well of excuses. There is no proof, statistical or otherwise, that Jones is a good quarterback. The Giants paid him - in a normal universe the burden of proof would be on him to show that he is worth the cost. But in this world of crazy pills we cherry pick and make excuses to justify paying this player on spec. The 2022 Giants went 9-7-1 and had their season ended in embarrassing fashion by a division rival. There is no trophy for that, and for the real teams in this league that would constitute a disappointing season. This is all so fucking sad.

another dodge but at least you included and acknowledged the ignored questions in your reply, progress!

a little gaslighting in the bold since the reply you quoted literally cites 2 stats you yourself sourced as important but hey progress is still progress. wont let perfect be the enemy of good.

In comment 16307565 bw in dc said:

Quote:

I'll keep repeating what others have wisely pointed out - if Jones was on another team and available in free agency, this board would be near unanimous in having zero interest in signing him.

If Jones was the starting QB for the Atlanta Falcons or Tennessee Titans or a half dozen other fairly nondescript NFL franchises, how long would it take his biggest supporters here to even remember his name if they were asked?

In comment 16305020 djm said:

Quote:

Jones got paid because he was our best option and he was paid for what he did in 22. He was paid because he was a FA at the right time. Paid because he was the best QB available for the Giants. GMS simply don't let go their best QB when they are FAs. The last time a team did that was Washington with Cousins and look how that turned out. If it was 2003, Jones' contract would still be top 10ish but would look a lot more acceptable but inflation and all that. Actually nah, this place would still shit sideways because nothing gets people nuts more than cap stuff. No time machines. No crystal balls. Jones had a bad year the Giants didn't see coming, not to this degree. That doesn't mean the staff is incompetent. Doesn't mean if Jones was playing slightly better right now and NYG saw a QB in April they don't take him then either. DJ could be OK this season and NYG could still be taking a QB in April. Teams do this. KC did it. This same franchise did it in 04! Not everything has to be so black and white.

Breathe of fresh air, thank you DJM(I was going to jump down your throat for the Murray trade proposal ;))!
Not sure how some of the takes on BBI come to fruition. I like both Schoen AND Daboll. Have they both made mistakes yes. How was our team so utterly unprepared for the 1st game of the season? Thats on Daboll. The fact that he has kept them together and able to roll out a couple of W's and have the team play within themselves I think is a good sign. People jump all over the DJ contract, but thats what a middle of the road QB is worth today, especially one that just won the franchises first playoff game and first winning season in too many years. I don't think Daboll or Schoen are tied to Jones and will gladly dump him in 2025, while they draft a QB in the next two years. If Daboll can get Tommy Cutlets to develop into a decent back up QB in 5 or 6 games I trust him with a lower 1st or even 2nd round QB. Not to make him the next Mahomes or even Eli, but to a QB that can lead you to the playoffs and win a SB with a decent supporting cast.

That is so right. If Jones was on Philly or Dallas, Giant fans would love it. And then they would love it more when they paid him $81M guaranteed.

Let's put it this way, was any division rival upset when the Giants signed Jones back in March? Was there any, "damn, I was really hoping he'd be out of the division and go to Carolina!" Of course not. The rest of the division celebrated.

In comment 16307565 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 16307469 Go Terps said: Quote: Five years in and still the argument for Jones can only be based on criticizing the conditions around him. I can't believe this nightmare is still going on. I will admit I've been dead wrong about how long Jones would be here. Never thought it would get this far. Shame on me for that. I can't figure it out, either. It's the most bizarre situation I have ever seen in my time here at BBI. I don't who is dumber at this point: Me for not seeing what others apparently see in Jones? Schoen for re-signing Jones? Or the DJFC? I'll keep repeating what others have wisely pointed out - if Jones was on another team and available in free agency, this board would be near unanimous in having zero interest in signing him. While I'm not a Barkley guy in the sense of wanting to pay him big dollars, he has been infinitely more productive at his position than Jones. So, I can see why posters would push to keep him. At least defenses fear him.

this may come off like a backhanded compliment but it sincerely isnt, after years of these same cyclical discussions i think you are perhaps the most open-minded of those i've been on the other side of so im going to clarify something i think your post misunderstands - there is no amazon prime delivery on the next patrick mahomes or joe burrow.

there is only 1 question re: jones that has mattered to the new regime - was he the best option of the alterantives available?

in 2022 when they came in:

watson and wilson cost a ton and they have arguably been bigger laughing stocks (though russ has been a lot better than people credit this year).

trubisky and tyrod weren't doing better than jones did last year.

willis and ridder and pickett and corral and the rest of that historically poor '22 class wouldn't have been better.

last offseason they were far out of reach from young/stroud and they clearly decided they liked jones a good deal. they paid him more than carr and the other options available to them in FA, and imo that was justifiable even though i would consider what they gave him an aggressive contract. extending barkley and tagging jones was a much safer path im sure they wish they now wish they took.

as ive said numerous times, this year i think is the first time there are enough viable options that id be surprised if they dont take one. it is a good qb draft and they have the ammo necessary. 5 years of control is 2 extra years of control beyond jones contract even if he played it to term, plus tag years beyond that. it is good business to invest if there's a 1st rd qb they like.

but eating an extra $22m of dead money as terps suggests (69m total dead money in 1 year) is the opposite of good business even if it wasnt also highly unlikely because of the injury. next year like 2022 will be another prove it year and i expect them to give themselves a much better alternative option he'll need to beat out.

In comment 16307407 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16307391 Go Terps said: Quote: 21st in the NFL. League average was 5.9. interesting, so in his age 25 first year with the new regime: the league leader at protecting the football (your 2nd most important qb stat int%, a stat he had improved in every year of his career until this one). the 5th best rushing qb. tied for 2nd with tom brady and justin herbert in game winning drives with 5. played his best game in a road playoff win (the teams first in over a decade). and in what you seem to think was his achilles heel worst stat, adjusted passing yards per attempt, he was so bad he was almost exactly league average despite being in an offense severely deficient in receiving weapons. last year there were 22 receivers who had 1k+ yards and 38 who had 800+. if the nyg had one of them do you think they would have passed for more yards per attempt than they did? or if they'd just started the year with slayton/james/hodgins getting all the reps instead of a bunch of guys currently out of the league? or was jones somehow supposed to be able to pass for more yardage per attempt than he did throwing to golladay, marcus johnson, and david sills?

Jones has had remarkably consistent passing production excluding his rookie year. A little less than a touchdown a game, about 200 yards passing. I don't think the receivers would have changed it. Passing touchdowns are super correlated with points scored, which is highly correlated with wins. If you asked me what single statistic I want my team to be best ate it would be passing touchdowns.

I think the later season numbers were more attributable to Daboll capitalizing on poor pass defenses more than the weapons. Because we had the best weapons this year and he was awful.

In comment 16307613 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

In comment 16307407 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16307391 Go Terps said: Quote: 21st in the NFL. League average was 5.9. interesting, so in his age 25 first year with the new regime: the league leader at protecting the football (your 2nd most important qb stat int%, a stat he had improved in every year of his career until this one). the 5th best rushing qb. tied for 2nd with tom brady and justin herbert in game winning drives with 5. played his best game in a road playoff win (the teams first in over a decade). and in what you seem to think was his achilles heel worst stat, adjusted passing yards per attempt, he was so bad he was almost exactly league average despite being in an offense severely deficient in receiving weapons. last year there were 22 receivers who had 1k+ yards and 38 who had 800+. if the nyg had one of them do you think they would have passed for more yards per attempt than they did? or if they'd just started the year with slayton/james/hodgins getting all the reps instead of a bunch of guys currently out of the league? or was jones somehow supposed to be able to pass for more yardage per attempt than he did throwing to golladay, marcus johnson, and david sills? Jones has had remarkably consistent passing production excluding his rookie year. A little less than a touchdown a game, about 200 yards passing. I don't think the receivers would have changed it. Passing touchdowns are super correlated with points scored, which is highly correlated with wins. If you asked me what single statistic I want my team to be best ate it would be passing touchdowns. I think the later season numbers were more attributable to Daboll capitalizing on poor pass defenses more than the weapons. Because we had the best weapons this year and he was awful.

read my last post to bw, and specifically in the context of his performance and the decisions made by this regime. i dont know how rationalizing good stats last year bc of bad defenses is any different than rationalizing bad stats this because of good defenses (and an undeniably terrible OL against those defenses) - and that is a chicken or egg game that gets nobody nowhere. last year he led drives to beat baltimore before lamar got hurt, gb neutral site, jax on road, min on road/playoffs, and those teams either made the playoffs or had winning records when they played them.

this year has been a disaster but people are going overboard in throwing out last year bc of 4 losses where the whole team was noncompetitive in all 3 phases (dal, sf, sea, mia).

I'm not rationalizing any data. I'm saying Jones has been a remarkably consistent passer in terms of TDs produced and yards thrown, including last season. I think picking off individual games and pretending Jones is something more would be wrong.

He will have a handful of great games a year, but is mostly a mediocre passer.

In comment 16307651 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

I'm not rationalizing any data. I'm saying Jones has been a remarkably consistent passer in terms of TDs produced and yards thrown, including last season. I think picking off individual games and pretending Jones is something more would be wrong. He will have a handful of great games a year, but is mostly a mediocre passer.

Bad passer. When Jones has to read the field and go vertical against good defenses, he's bad. His only redeeming quality is running.

Also, some of those games you mentioned were uncompetitive because Jones was awful, namely the SEA game.

In comment 16307651 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

I'm not rationalizing any data. I'm saying Jones has been a remarkably consistent passer in terms of TDs produced and yards thrown, including last season. I think picking off individual games and pretending Jones is something more would be wrong. He will have a handful of great games a year, but is mostly a mediocre passer.

you aren't asking the question from the perspective of the way qb decisions get made (the thread has morphed into the same circular debate jones discussions always become but it started from comments schoen made w/r/t jones and the future).

like i said to bw there is only 1 question that matters/ed - what is the best option of the options available?

in 2022 there werent many good options and even though they didnt like him enough to pick up the 5yo, he turned out to be probably the best of the options available.

in 2023 they clearly felt won over to the extent that they paid him expecting him to be not just be the best option for 2023 but also 2024 based on the deal structure. they guaranteed him 40m+ they didnt have to.

2023 has been bad enough i expect they are going to hedge that decision heading into 2024 with a 1st round draft pick. but nowhere in this decision chain is a way to just overnight an upgrade at QB who will pass for more touchdowns. it's the hardest position to find with the highest bust rate, which is why schoen is in the present day doing post-mortem on the 2018 QB class. and it's also why frank reich is unemployed just 6 months after taking the consensus #1oa QB. once every decade there's an andrew luck or peyton manning but other than that:

If there are only bad options then surely it would be inadvisable to commit heavily to one of the bad options.

In comment 16307753 Go Terps said:

Quote:

If there are only bad options then surely it would be inadvisable to commit heavily to one of the bad options.

not really an option when the costs are the costs and coaches are coaching to not get fired. it's a lot easier to tell someone to punt when it's their job on the line not yours.

Well, we all had the same facts this off-season. I advocated for franchising because Jones was the best option and I thought there was some small probability he could have a higher ceiling. I wanted another year, I have no problem admitting it.

The Giants clearly had a view that 2022 Jones was sort of a floor and that there was serious development coming. They were wrong. That contract was awful the day it was signed and I thought it was asinine. I think every franchise (outside of maybe Denver and Cleveland) is 2-3 years from competing, and if you aren't a contender, you should limit big dollar investment over that time horizon.

My hope is the Giants realize that it was an error and don't excuse it, but Schoen's comments about the injuries and tough schedule make me concerned the hard analytical work isn't being done.

In comment 16307758 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16307753 Go Terps said: Quote: If there are only bad options then surely it would be inadvisable to commit heavily to one of the bad options. not really an option when the costs are the costs and coaches are coaching to not get fired. it's a lot easier to tell someone to punt when it's their job on the line not yours.

But paying Jones only damaged their job security.

In comment 16307762 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

Well, we all had the same facts this off-season. I advocated for franchising because Jones was the best option and I thought there was some small probability he could have a higher ceiling. I wanted another year, I have no problem admitting it. The Giants clearly had a view that 2022 Jones was sort of a floor and that there was serious development coming. They were wrong. That contract was awful the day it was signed and I thought it was asinine. I think every franchise (outside of maybe Denver and Cleveland) is 2-3 years from competing, and if you aren't a contender, you should limit big dollar investment over that time horizon. My hope is the Giants realize that it was an error and don't excuse it, but Schoen's comments about the injuries and tough schedule make me concerned the hard analytical work isn't being done.

he is researching QB success rates in prior drafts - and specifically the last draft he and his head coach chose the right guy - that is the right analytical work to be doing.

a lot of the same knockers of jones will be first in line to knock picking a bo nix or jj mccarthy (some already are in other threads) but that is the decision they are already prepping for because that's the decision that may end up defining their run here more than jones. i think when push comes to shove they will put chips in on a first round qb this year.

I would hope they have QB success rates readily available. My guess is they don't have a good grip of the base rates because those base rates would have told them QBs in their fifth season don't magically transform into productive passers.

I absolutely will not trash them if they miss on the QB--I think drafting first round QBs is significantly more luck driven than any of us like to admit. I never shit on Gettleman (who I thought was completely incompetent) for drafting Jones. My issue will be is if they give whoever they draft an undeserved third or fourth year. Or wrongly project future growth (as they did with Jones).

It's what, a 50-50 proposition a top ten draft QB is good? And that might be overstating it. I think we have the right coach to help develop a young QB. But so did San Francisco and Lance was a bust.

In comment 16307766 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16307758 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16307753 Go Terps said: Quote: If there are only bad options then surely it would be inadvisable to commit heavily to one of the bad options. not really an option when the costs are the costs and coaches are coaching to not get fired. it's a lot easier to tell someone to punt when it's their job on the line not yours. But paying Jones only damaged their job security.

did it? if they dumped jones and regressed to the same extent they did this year with whoever they replaced him with, then who would be first lightning rod catching the blame instead of him?

the only thing that helps their job security is steps forward at the position.

In comment 16307779 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

I would hope they have QB success rates readily available. My guess is they don't have a good grip of the base rates because those base rates would have told them QBs in their fifth season don't magically transform into productive passers. I absolutely will not trash them if they miss on the QB--I think drafting first round QBs is significantly more luck driven than any of us like to admit. I never shit on Gettleman (who I thought was completely incompetent) for drafting Jones. My issue will be is if they give whoever they draft an undeserved third or fourth year. Or wrongly project future growth (as they did with Jones). It's what, a 50-50 proposition a top ten draft QB is good? And that might be overstating it. I think we have the right coach to help develop a young QB. But so did San Francisco and Lance was a bust.

it is way below 50-50. probably more like 1 in 4 or 5 first round. each draft has roughly 10-12 total QBs drafted and not every draft has 1 very good starter come out of it. some have 2 but i think the average would be around 1 per year with an average of 3 or so selected in the first round. good qb drafts as 2024 may be go over, average ones like 2023 may have been hit about that, bad qb drafts like 2022 go under.

also i dont think they are doing simple analysis like who did what from 2018. id imagine (or at least hope) they are scouring their own internal assessments of each of those qbs, seeing what they got right about each of those guys and what they got wrong, and what they feel they got most right about allen in their projection from what he was in college to what they helped develop him into. i assume that type of analysis is done almost every draft at every position, but at the QB gets heightened attention when you are in the market. i dont think andry reid is going to be doing as much of that this year.

When ALL the other alternatives are not good, this deal therefore was reasonable.

Even Mr. Franchise Tag can't get around to saying that was a better option since he didn't support it.

I am actually intensely curious on the internal analysis done by teams. The closest detail I can recall was the Next Man Up book on the Ravens, which came out almost 20 years ago now.

My guess is the internal analysis is much worse than we would like to think (I'd point to Gettleman sounding like a complete buffoon most of the time). And with time so scarce, that sort of self-scouting probably takes a back seat to more pressing business.

Different position, but a guy like Evan Neal (I still have hope in him, but let's assume he's a bust for a moment). Was the scouting wrong? Doesn't seem likely. Was it coaching? Maybe, seems possible. Or was it just an unlucky result with a good process?

QB-focused, could Darnold have succeeded in Buffalo? Would Allen suck with the Jets or Giants? No one really 'knows' the answers to these, but I'd be curious on their professional opinions. Sometimes just looking at the after the fact results is insufficient.

In comment 16307803 ThomasG said:

Quote:

When ALL the other alternatives are not good, this deal therefore was reasonable. Even Mr. Franchise Tag can't get around to saying that was a better option since he didn't support it.

Rattling off new handle ideas comes really naturally to you.

Not sure what threads you were reading last offseason under whichever previous handle but i was here under this handle the day the details were announced saying the extension was more aggressive than i expected. christian referenced that in this thread because he was the one i was mostly arguing that case with.

will look cheap versus the others. And now Schoen can use the franchise tag as leverage on re-signing Barkley. Wonder who this sounds like.

Like sands through the hourglass.

In comment 16307811 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

I am actually intensely curious on the internal analysis done by teams. The closest detail I can recall was the Next Man Up book on the Ravens, which came out almost 20 years ago now. My guess is the internal analysis is much worse than we would like to think (I'd point to Gettleman sounding like a complete buffoon most of the time). And with time so scarce, that sort of self-scouting probably takes a back seat to more pressing business. Different position, but a guy like Evan Neal (I still have hope in him, but let's assume he's a bust for a moment). Was the scouting wrong? Doesn't seem likely. Was it coaching? Maybe, seems possible. Or was it just an unlucky result with a good process? QB-focused, could Darnold have succeeded in Buffalo? Would Allen suck with the Jets or Giants? No one really 'knows' the answers to these, but I'd be curious on their professional opinions. Sometimes just looking at the after the fact results is insufficient.

Re neal, schoen just said he went back to look at the college tape and "he's a good player", so i do think there's a not so subtle hint that bobby johnson probably under a microscope and in a different org next year.

NFL teams are big business, Sy recently said he just went back to look at Neal at bama too, and NFL teams employ probably somewhere in the ballpark of 200 Sys who have 100000x more access to data and non-public information. So id imagine the amount of work they are putting in behind the scenes is beyond whatever we think it is even in the worst organizations.

these guys all know how precarious their job security is so i think they are all doing everything they can to get things right because getting things right is what makes them money and keeps them from becoming punchlines who get fired and embarrass their kids as they move from school to school in new cities. and even with what are essentially r&d budgets in the 10s-100's of millions, they all get more wrong than right.

In comment 16307822 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16307811 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: I am actually intensely curious on the internal analysis done by teams. The closest detail I can recall was the Next Man Up book on the Ravens, which came out almost 20 years ago now. My guess is the internal analysis is much worse than we would like to think (I'd point to Gettleman sounding like a complete buffoon most of the time). And with time so scarce, that sort of self-scouting probably takes a back seat to more pressing business. Different position, but a guy like Evan Neal (I still have hope in him, but let's assume he's a bust for a moment). Was the scouting wrong? Doesn't seem likely. Was it coaching? Maybe, seems possible. Or was it just an unlucky result with a good process? QB-focused, could Darnold have succeeded in Buffalo? Would Allen suck with the Jets or Giants? No one really 'knows' the answers to these, but I'd be curious on their professional opinions. Sometimes just looking at the after the fact results is insufficient. Re neal, schoen just said he went back to look at the college tape and "he's a good player", so i do think there's a not so subtle hint that bobby johnson probably under a microscope and in a different org next year. NFL teams are big business, Sy recently said he just went back to look at Neal at bama too, and NFL teams employ probably somewhere in the ballpark of 200 Sys who have 100000x more access to data and non-public information. So id imagine the amount of work they are putting in behind the scenes is beyond whatever we think it is even in the worst organizations. these guys all know how precarious their job security is so i think they are all doing everything they can to get things right because getting things right is what makes them money and keeps them from becoming punchlines who get fired and embarrass their kids as they move from school to school in new cities. and even with what are essentially r&d budgets in the 10s-100's of millions, they all get more wrong than right.

This is what I think about whenever someone comes out with the common "the draft is a crapshoot" line.

It's almost always coming from a fan, and it's shorthand for "I don't know what goes on in the evaluation process, so it might as well be random nonsense".

In comment 16307822 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16307811 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: I am actually intensely curious on the internal analysis done by teams. The closest detail I can recall was the Next Man Up book on the Ravens, which came out almost 20 years ago now. My guess is the internal analysis is much worse than we would like to think (I'd point to Gettleman sounding like a complete buffoon most of the time). And with time so scarce, that sort of self-scouting probably takes a back seat to more pressing business. Different position, but a guy like Evan Neal (I still have hope in him, but let's assume he's a bust for a moment). Was the scouting wrong? Doesn't seem likely. Was it coaching? Maybe, seems possible. Or was it just an unlucky result with a good process? QB-focused, could Darnold have succeeded in Buffalo? Would Allen suck with the Jets or Giants? No one really 'knows' the answers to these, but I'd be curious on their professional opinions. Sometimes just looking at the after the fact results is insufficient. Re neal, schoen just said he went back to look at the college tape and "he's a good player", so i do think there's a not so subtle hint that bobby johnson probably under a microscope and in a different org next year. NFL teams are big business, Sy recently said he just went back to look at Neal at bama too, and NFL teams employ probably somewhere in the ballpark of 200 Sys who have 100000x more access to data and non-public information. So id imagine the amount of work they are putting in behind the scenes is beyond whatever we think it is even in the worst organizations. these guys all know how precarious their job security is so i think they are all doing everything they can to get things right because getting things right is what makes them money and keeps them from becoming punchlines who get fired and embarrass their kids as they move from school to school in new cities. and even with what are essentially r&d budgets in the 10s-100's of millions, they all get more wrong than right.

I'm sure they all work very hard, but I don't know how good they all are, lol. This is a bit simplistic, but you see so many stupid decisions from head coaches every week. I don't think a lot of these guys are very intelligent, frankly. I remember Shurmur, for example, was asked to explain why he went for 2 points and he couldn't articulate the reasoning well--merely pointing to the analytics rather than understanding the logic.

I think Belichick had a huge advantage with Ernie Adams and advanced data. Now teams caught up and the value of that advantage declined. Belichick is a bit of an asshole, but I've never really heard him say something stupid. I've heard Shurmur, DG, and many others say stupid shit. I think it was Fassel who said they are all glorified PE teachers.

In comment 16307819 ThomasG said:

Quote:

will look cheap versus the others. And now Schoen can use the franchise tag as leverage on re-signing Barkley. Wonder who this sounds like. Like sands through the hourglass.

Like sand in the sahara an unlimited supply of bs.

below is the thread when the signing broke and tell me where i said any of that. pretty sure this was my first post reacting to the deal, other than trading for waller instead of hopkins, which as it turns out would have been a cheaper and better route, i think it holds up pretty good.

Quote:

the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it Eric on Li : mute : 3/7/2023 5:34 pm : link but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic. i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.

DANIEL JONES: 4-year deal worth $160M, sources say - ( New Window )

There were alternatives to Jones after 2022, but that would have required real boldness from Schoen. As I have stated many times, the more reasonable approach would have been the FT to make Jones prove it again because his 2022 performance was solid/good, not great and compelling. Schoen provided a reward to Team Jones that exceeded - IMV - his performance.

But that's not my issue. My issue is Jones the player; and those who truly think it is worth it to give Jones yet another audition in 2024. And that they saw enough in 2022, and maybe further back, to convince them that there is even more upside here.

And that continues to blow my mind because I can't bend my imagination far enough to get there. We all look at this through our own prisms, and all I see with Jones is a skill set fairly easy to replace.

In comment 16307845 bw in dc said:

Quote:

There were alternatives to Jones after 2022, but that would have required real boldness from Schoen. As I have stated many times, the more reasonable approach would have been the FT to make Jones prove it again because his 2022 performance was solid/good, not great and compelling. Schoen provided a reward to Team Jones that exceeded - IMV - his performance. But that's not my issue. My issue is Jones the player; and those who truly think it is worth it to give Jones yet another audition in 2024. And that they saw enough in 2022, and maybe further back, to convince them that there is even more upside here. And that continues to blow my mind because I can't bend my imagination far enough to get there. We all look at this through our own prisms, and all I see with Jones is a skill set fairly easy to replace.

The sad part is... if we could have signed Barkley I bet we FT Jones.

Quote:

they got a player they wanted at a fair price with fair protections Eric on Li : 3/8/2023 7:09 pm : link A+ for creativity, flexibility, no drama execution solid B+/A for the deal itself i think there was only a little bit of daylight for this contract to have been better but not been so overly favorable that it was worth signing over the tag. i think getting a 5th year would have been a positive, but id imagine the cost of getting was more expensive. i think this is a really good deal for both sides, but perhaps a slightly better deal for jones than the nyg depending on the incentives because based on the PFT report im thinking the incentives are much more likely to pay out than the giants using the emergency chutes after year 2 or 3.

In comment 16307835 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

I'm sure they all work very hard, but I don't know how good they all are, lol. This is a bit simplistic, but you see so many stupid decisions from head coaches every week. I don't think a lot of these guys are very intelligent, frankly. I remember Shurmur, for example, was asked to explain why he went for 2 points and he couldn't articulate the reasoning well--merely pointing to the analytics rather than understanding the logic. I think Belichick had a huge advantage with Ernie Adams and advanced data. Now teams caught up and the value of that advantage declined. Belichick is a bit of an asshole, but I've never really heard him say something stupid. I've heard Shurmur, DG, and many others say stupid shit. I think it was Fassel who said they are all glorified PE teachers.

so a few random thoughts:

1. think about how big the pool of hireable head coaches is (it's not big). it's gotten bigger with younger coaches getting more consideration and having success, but the universe is not very big. 32 teams = 64 O/D coordinators. usually have to be at that level to get a lead job, but not always. many of those 64 have already failed and at the moment of black monday 25-30% of those O/D coordinators were part of staffs that just got fired. maybe a few college coaches get consideration but it's hard to even find quality coaches in college at this point. take out the prior failures still employed, plus the recently unemployed, and you are probably around 10-20 candidates per year, which is i think the approximate number of guys who get interviews league wide (maybe a little higher than that get interviews but some are always considered long shots).

so to the point about "i dont know how good they all are" you are correct. there arent 100's of ivy leaguers who have put in the 10-20 years in those coaching ranks building up resumes to be equipped to get those jobs right now. i do think things are trending that way because thats the needed skillset now and more and more you hear about guys with those kinds of backgrounds as OCs. Mike McDaniels fits that.

2. i think the line between winning and losing has never been closer, the talent never flatter, and the number of true impact players never fewer. the new rules, new cba, evolution of college/hs/7on7s all part of it. cycles are all sped up and not to sound get off my lawn i dont think tom brady is wrong. too much changed too quickly and in some ways the nfl isn't recognizeable to even the coughlin era game (which is part of what ended him here so poorly, he was not an adapter the way pete carroll and andy reid were adapters).

In comment 16307850 ThomasG said:

Quote:

Quote: they got a player they wanted at a fair price with fair protections Eric on Li : 3/8/2023 7:09 pm : link A+ for creativity, flexibility, no drama execution solid B+/A for the deal itself i think there was only a little bit of daylight for this contract to have been better but not been so overly favorable that it was worth signing over the tag. i think getting a 5th year would have been a positive, but id imagine the cost of getting was more expensive. i think this is a really good deal for both sides, but perhaps a slightly better deal for jones than the nyg depending on the incentives because based on the PFT report im thinking the incentives are much more likely to pay out than the giants using the emergency chutes after year 2 or 3.

serious question, do you know how to read? does the bold literally not say it was a better deal for jones than nyg?

i dont know why i spend time arguing with someone who has a multiple personality disorder, probably because it's so hard to keep up with your new handles on the BBI Mute list, but as a final goodbye (until the next handle) ill refer you back to my exchange with christian earlier in this very thread.

https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=640922&show_all=1#16306613

In comment 16307863 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16307835 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: I'm sure they all work very hard, but I don't know how good they all are, lol. This is a bit simplistic, but you see so many stupid decisions from head coaches every week. I don't think a lot of these guys are very intelligent, frankly. I remember Shurmur, for example, was asked to explain why he went for 2 points and he couldn't articulate the reasoning well--merely pointing to the analytics rather than understanding the logic. I think Belichick had a huge advantage with Ernie Adams and advanced data. Now teams caught up and the value of that advantage declined. Belichick is a bit of an asshole, but I've never really heard him say something stupid. I've heard Shurmur, DG, and many others say stupid shit. I think it was Fassel who said they are all glorified PE teachers. so a few random thoughts: 1. think about how big the pool of hireable head coaches is (it's not big). it's gotten bigger with younger coaches getting more consideration and having success, but the universe is not very big. 32 teams = 64 O/D coordinators. usually have to be at that level to get a lead job, but not always. many of those 64 have already failed and at the moment of black monday 25-30% of those O/D coordinators were part of staffs that just got fired. maybe a few college coaches get consideration but it's hard to even find quality coaches in college at this point. take out the prior failures still employed, plus the recently unemployed, and you are probably around 10-20 candidates per year, which is i think the approximate number of guys who get interviews league wide (maybe a little higher than that get interviews but some are always considered long shots). so to the point about "i dont know how good they all are" you are correct. there arent 100's of ivy leaguers who have put in the 10-20 years in those coaching ranks building up resumes to be equipped to get those jobs right now. i do think things are trending that way because thats the needed skillset now and more and more you hear about guys with those kinds of backgrounds as OCs. Mike McDaniels fits that. 2. i think the line between winning and losing has never been closer, the talent never flatter, and the number of true impact players never fewer. the new rules, new cba, evolution of college/hs/7on7s all part of it. cycles are all sped up and not to sound get off my lawn i dont think tom brady is wrong. too much changed too quickly and in some ways the nfl isn't recognizeable to even the coughlin era game (which is part of what ended him here so poorly, he was not an adapter the way pete carroll and andy reid were adapters).

I agree with everything you wrote here. I'd add, I think scouting has gotten so difficult in part because the college and pro games are really different now. I'm not and have never been super into college football, but it's obvious the second I turn on any game. Analyzing linemen, for example, is so hard when colleges operate spread in offenses so frequently. Patrick Mahomes, literally the best QB in the game today, has talked about not knowing how to read defenses coming out of college. And I think it leads to some of the issues Brady talks about--I feel like the fundamentals (tackling, blocking) have deteriorated from the mid-2000s. Partially due to rule changes, partially due to the post-2011 CBA.

In comment 16307845 bw in dc said:

Quote:

There were alternatives to Jones after 2022, but that would have required real boldness from Schoen. As I have stated many times, the more reasonable approach would have been the FT to make Jones prove it again because his 2022 performance was solid/good, not great and compelling. Schoen provided a reward to Team Jones that exceeded - IMV - his performance. But that's not my issue. My issue is Jones the player; and those who truly think it is worth it to give Jones yet another audition in 2024. And that they saw enough in 2022, and maybe further back, to convince them that there is even more upside here. And that continues to blow my mind because I can't bend my imagination far enough to get there. We all look at this through our own prisms, and all I see with Jones is a skill set fairly easy to replace.

on one hand you say that but on the other you dont like the idea of drafting nix - which is totally fair because i have my own reservations about him - but that's my point, i think there are unrealistic expectations about finding qbs in general. all of us as fans get wrapped in liking certain guys and not others.

i loved (and still very much like) bryce young because what he did against the SEC (especially UGA 3 or 4x in big games) had me more convinced than any recent qb he was ready for the NFL. his anticipation, ball distribution, escapability were all among what i think the most important traits are in the game today and he was battle tested. the nfl agreed as he was the consensus #1 player on all the lists ahead of more tools-rich players, he got drafted there, and now most fans make smurf jokes and frank reich is fired.

so all of that is to say my prism for qbs is that it's these guys jobs on the line and they know it better than us. it is their single biggest decision, they watch every ounce of tape, and they know 1 million times better than us which players are the right fits for their schemes. and they get significantly more wrong than right. it's easy to not like guys (theres a reason for the saying most popular player on every team is backup qb). fans can be much more casual about changing qbs because our jobs arent on the line.

In comment 16307866 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16307850 ThomasG said: Quote: Quote: they got a player they wanted at a fair price with fair protections Eric on Li : 3/8/2023 7:09 pm : link A+ for creativity, flexibility, no drama execution solid B+/A for the deal itself i think there was only a little bit of daylight for this contract to have been better but not been so overly favorable that it was worth signing over the tag. i think getting a 5th year would have been a positive, but id imagine the cost of getting was more expensive. i think this is a really good deal for both sides, but perhaps a slightly better deal for jones than the nyg depending on the incentives because based on the PFT report im thinking the incentives are much more likely to pay out than the giants using the emergency chutes after year 2 or 3. serious question, do you know how to read? does the bold literally not say it was a better deal for jones than nyg? i dont know why i spend time arguing with someone who has a multiple personality disorder, probably because it's so hard to keep up with your new handles on the BBI Mute list, but as a final goodbye (until the next handle) ill refer you back to my exchange with christian earlier in this very thread. https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=640922&show_all=1#16306613

Typical spin from you. Let me summarize the highlights from your own post Eric:

- Overall Deal Grade for Giants is between B+ and A+
- Maybe deal could have been cheaper but still better than tag
- You actually wished the Giants got a 5th year of Jones
- Really good deal for both sides
- Slightly better for Jones because he will easily reach performance incentives
- Jones reaching incentives is more likely than him busting

You missed it, and you missed it huge. Understanding how the cap and contracts are structured is one thing but you seemingly miss on the most important underlying concept there is when you type your lecture posts - Player Evaluation.

In comment 16307881 ThomasG said:

Quote:

In comment 16307866 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16307850 ThomasG said: Quote: Quote: they got a player they wanted at a fair price with fair protections Eric on Li : 3/8/2023 7:09 pm : link A+ for creativity, flexibility, no drama execution solid B+/A for the deal itself i think there was only a little bit of daylight for this contract to have been better but not been so overly favorable that it was worth signing over the tag. i think getting a 5th year would have been a positive, but id imagine the cost of getting was more expensive. i think this is a really good deal for both sides, but perhaps a slightly better deal for jones than the nyg depending on the incentives because based on the PFT report im thinking the incentives are much more likely to pay out than the giants using the emergency chutes after year 2 or 3. serious question, do you know how to read? does the bold literally not say it was a better deal for jones than nyg? i dont know why i spend time arguing with someone who has a multiple personality disorder, probably because it's so hard to keep up with your new handles on the BBI Mute list, but as a final goodbye (until the next handle) ill refer you back to my exchange with christian earlier in this very thread. https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=640922&show_all=1#16306613 Typical spin from you. Let me summarize the highlights from your own post Eric: - Overall Deal Grade for Giants is between B+ and A+ - Maybe deal could have been cheaper but still better than tag - You actually wished the Giants got a 5th year of Jones - Really good deal for both sides - Slightly better for Jones because he will easily reach performance incentives - Jones reaching incentives is more likely than him busting You missed it, and you missed it huge. Understanding how the cap and contracts are structured is one thing but you seemingly miss on the most important underlying concept there is when you type your lecture posts - Player Evaluation.

its flattering to know you have such high standards for my player evaluation skills but the reason i stick to contracts and #'s in most of my posts is because that's a far less subjective area. what teams pay players is what they think of players and most of my posts start from that (or non-subjective statistical comps). that's their evaluation. putting my player evaluation hat on were he healthy id still have a lot less concern over jones talent to succeed than the aggregate of their misfires on the OL the past 2 years. even when jones and the offense had good moments in 2022 that's where dallas/philly still dominated them.

In comment 16307876 Eric on Li said:

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on one hand you say that but on the other you dont like the idea of drafting nix - which is totally fair because i have my own reservations about him - but that's my point, i think there are unrealistic expectations about finding qbs in general. all of us as fans get wrapped in liking certain guys and not others. i loved (and still very much like) bryce young because what he did against the SEC (especially UGA 3 or 4x in big games) had me more convinced than any recent qb he was ready for the NFL. his anticipation, ball distribution, escapability were all among what i think the most important traits are in the game today and he was battle tested. the nfl agreed as he was the consensus #1 player on all the lists ahead of more tools-rich players, he got drafted there, and now most fans make smurf jokes and frank reich is fired. so all of that is to say my prism for qbs is that it's these guys jobs on the line and they know it better than us. it is their single biggest decision, they watch every ounce of tape, and they know 1 million times better than us which players are the right fits for their schemes. and they get significantly more wrong than right. it's easy to not like guys (theres a reason for the saying most popular player on every team is backup qb). fans can be much more casual about changing qbs because our jobs arent on the line.

I said I wouldn't like Nix as a first round investment, especially in the lottery. But a day two or early day three idea is more interesting.

It's way too early to write the obituary on Young, but that size was always going to be a challenge. It stinks for him right now that he's in such chaos in Charlotte.

Look, I know Schoen is a professional evaluator, but it that shouldn't mean we should just trust their decisions. Especially a guy like Schoen who has never been in the chair that swings the gavel. And the draft/evaluation process is still more art than science.

But circling back to Jones, do you really think he has skills that you trust moving forward? Skills that you observe and go, "Yeah, those are good enough to win big prizes..."

with your posts regarding NFL team/Giant roster building strategies and miss the player evals because of you prefer to debating hang-ups on contract dollars and years while missing the basic point of "do we really want the player?". You did it plenty with Jones and also Barkley and we have had some back and forths on it, all with your condescending remarks as well.

And your post above on DJ is a good example of how you missed, and missed it huge.

It is a fan opinion board and we all miss so no big deal. Unless, of course, you want to continue to make yourself out to be a big deal. That is up to you.

In comment 16307908 bw in dc said:

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In comment 16307876 Eric on Li said: Quote: on one hand you say that but on the other you dont like the idea of drafting nix - which is totally fair because i have my own reservations about him - but that's my point, i think there are unrealistic expectations about finding qbs in general. all of us as fans get wrapped in liking certain guys and not others. i loved (and still very much like) bryce young because what he did against the SEC (especially UGA 3 or 4x in big games) had me more convinced than any recent qb he was ready for the NFL. his anticipation, ball distribution, escapability were all among what i think the most important traits are in the game today and he was battle tested. the nfl agreed as he was the consensus #1 player on all the lists ahead of more tools-rich players, he got drafted there, and now most fans make smurf jokes and frank reich is fired. so all of that is to say my prism for qbs is that it's these guys jobs on the line and they know it better than us. it is their single biggest decision, they watch every ounce of tape, and they know 1 million times better than us which players are the right fits for their schemes. and they get significantly more wrong than right. it's easy to not like guys (theres a reason for the saying most popular player on every team is backup qb). fans can be much more casual about changing qbs because our jobs arent on the line. I said I wouldn't like Nix as a first round investment, especially in the lottery. But a day two or early day three idea is more interesting. It's way too early to write the obituary on Young, but that size was always going to be a challenge. It stinks for him right now that he's in such chaos in Charlotte. Look, I know Schoen is a professional evaluator, but it that shouldn't mean we should just trust their decisions. Especially a guy like Schoen who has never been in the chair that swings the gavel. And the draft/evaluation process is still more art than science. But circling back to Jones, do you really think he has skills that you trust moving forward? Skills that you observe and go, "Yeah, those are good enough to win big prizes..."

if you dont have an elite starting qb, picking your starting qb is trusting the tallest midget. you and i have talked jones since that draft year and the ryan finley days, i thought jones had the alex smith/tannehill (pre-ten) skill set and i think that's still well within his capability so long as he returns healthy (which is a ?). Alex Smith didnt have his first winning season until year 6 age 27 and then won a heck of a lot of games after that even if he didnt win the big one.

In comment 16307915 ThomasG said:

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with your posts regarding NFL team/Giant roster building strategies and miss the player evals because of you prefer to debating hang-ups on contract dollars and years while missing the basic point of "do we really want the player?". You did it plenty with Jones and also Barkley and we have had some back and forths on it, all with your condescending remarks as well. And your post above on DJ is a good example of how you missed, and missed it huge. It is a fan opinion board and we all miss so no big deal. Unless, of course, you want to continue to make yourself out to be a big deal. That is up to you.

the only one making a big deal out of my opinions is you, and your multiple handles that seem to stalk and chronicle my posts. but your right it's fan opinion board so i guess im glad to have fans even if they are all the same guy who pretends to be different guys a few times each year.

Then let’s just go back to your original opinion above on the Daniel Jones contract.

The one you were clueless on and missed. By a mile.

Maybe you will reserve judgment or listen to others in a more prudent fashion until you actually get an opinion on one these bigger deals correct.

But again, that is up to you.

In comment 16307967 ThomasG said:

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Then let’s just go back to your original opinion above on the Daniel Jones contract. The one you were clueless on and missed. By a mile. Maybe you will reserve judgment or listen to others in a more prudent fashion until you actually get an opinion on one these bigger deals correct. But again, that is up to you.

not really no, after this ill mute you and be done with it since i assume nobody else cares. if there's one thing you're good at it's stalking so i assume you already found the worst of my takes (and if jones comes back healthy i think the contract will hold up fine, just as the leonard williams contract ended up working out just fine).

you seem to feel really validated by what amounted to 4 bad losses this year, which you are free to feel, but ill caution the same things i said in 2022 ahead of jones' last prove it year when you and many others were confident that would be his last year here. he's under contract that essentially guarantees him 2024, it's unlikely they spend to bring in a veteran to compete with him, and it's at best even odds a rookie would beat him out if he's healthy. so while you want to shoot him to the moon over the 4 games his contract makes it unlikely and if he's healthy whatever miniscule probability you'd peg on him coming back again in 2025, in reality it's higher.

Haha!

Not franchising Jones and giving Barkley a three year deal.

This would have been less expensive and allowed the Giants to rid themselves of the big Jones contract after only one year.

From management perspective the most sense is to position yourself to get rid of the biggest contract as soon as possible if things dont work out.

Now, if I can see this i am sure Schoen could see it. So why was this not done? This decision has Mara written all over it. It is the only logical explanation.

I mean just think about it. The highest salary by far should be the one that you want in a position to jettison as soon as possible if things go south.

Mara loved Jones and I am sure he bent Schoens ear. Schoen did his best to leave himself an out.

There is simply no good reason to have not franchised Jones.

In comment 16307565 bw in dc said:

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In comment 16307469 Go Terps said: Quote: Five years in and still the argument for Jones can only be based on criticizing the conditions around him. I can't believe this nightmare is still going on. I will admit I've been dead wrong about how long Jones would be here. Never thought it would get this far. Shame on me for that. I can't figure it out, either. It's the most bizarre situation I have ever seen in my time here at BBI. I don't who is dumber at this point: Me for not seeing what others apparently see in Jones? Schoen for re-signing Jones? Or the DJFC? I'll keep repeating what others have wisely pointed out - if Jones was on another team and available in free agency, this board would be near unanimous in having zero interest in signing him. While I'm not a Barkley guy in the sense of wanting to pay him big dollars, he has been infinitely more productive at his position than Jones. So, I can see why posters would push to keep him. At least defenses fear him.

What is confusing to me is that both of you believe that other’s opinion’s don’t matter. I will be kind and leave it at.