I thought Schoen provided some clues regarding the position going forward.
First, Daniel Jones will be on the roster next year. This should be a surprise to no one considering his contract and cap charge next year ($47M). There is no way to move off Jones and I'd assume there is no trade market. So, Jones takes up a spot in the QB room.
This is where I thought his comments were telling:
-Schoen said there are multiple avenues to address the position which include free agency and trade.
-He brought up the bust rate for top 10 QB's drafted while specifically citing the 2018 draft.
-He admitted that they will need to address QB which again isn't a surprise, but it shows just how bare the Giants are at this position.
-He talked about dealing with the NY market. I know some will disagree with me, but I think this does matter. Hurts is an example of a QB who provides no distractions.
A lot depends where NYG picks, for the sake of discussion let's give them two more wins. They squeak out a win somewhere and beat a resting Eagles team to get to 6-11. This probably puts them in the 5-10 range in the draft.
Would Schoen trade their 24 first, 24 second, 25 first, 25 third and Jalin Hyatt to move to the first pick in the draft? I doubt it. Given the roster holes and the financial commitment to Jones in 2024, I don't see it.
I think it's much more likely to trade into the back of the first and draft a QB. Maybe they sit tight and Daniels is there or maybe they can do a modest trade up in the first to secure one of the top tier QB's, but I don't see a situation where they mortgage a ton of draft picks and a young player like Carolina did.
I could see Schoen getting creative though. This would be trading a mid round pick for someone like Justin Fields or someone else out there that is young and still cost effective. One of Daboll's strengths is developing QB's, so maybe a guy like Fields does better under Daboll.
With Jones assured a roster spot, it makes it tricky though. Do you commit to bring back DeVito knowing he wouldn't last on the practice squad? Do you carry three QB's on game day?
I'd bet whoever is brought in (draft or trade) will have a strong chance to be the starting QB next year. I wonder if they feel the need to bring in two QB's or bring back DeVito and keep developing him.
I'd keep Daboll, but I would endorse this idea IF the new GM would do everything possible to jettison Jones five minutes into the job and go big game hunting for Daniels, etc.
Murray’s base salaries through 2027 guarantee in the prior league year, so acquiring him means essentially a base salary commitment for the next 2 years plus some workout bonus stuff. On the Jones side, the acquiring team is committing one year to him and then they can part ways with no muss. The financial side is manageable.
I lean towards the trade for Justin Fields contingency option. I think that could be a low risk high reward acquisition. Of course, depends on the Bears decision on his 5th year option and whether to draft a QB.
Yea I hear you, I am not a big fields guy at all. Love his running ability, who doesn't, but I will pass on Fields. I like Murray and always have.
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If I were Mara I'd either fire both Schoen and Daboll or reset the clock on both of them, pretending '22 and '23 never happened.
I'd keep Daboll, but I would endorse this idea IF the new GM would do everything possible to jettison Jones five minutes into the job and go big game hunting for Daniels, etc.
Mara is not firing a GM for believing in Jones, and replacing him with a new GM tasked with getting rid of Jones. Telling Mara Jones is part of the problem is the fastest way to find yourself being escorted out of 1925 Giants Way without even a souvenir pen.
They aren't going into the 2024 season with another Tyrod situation.
We have seen legendary players argue with coaches and players before. We saw Simms yell at Parcells on live TV during a game so I can tolerate some of that stuff.
Saying Murray can't throw from the pocket isn't fair at all. At the very least it's an exaggeration. Like I said the guy scores 400+ per season when things are right. HE's doing something right.
You don't like him that's fine. Was simply making convo. We can always talk about Daniel Jones conspiracy theories or What Schoen said in PC. Carry on.
None of us know though. We just have to wait 5 months.
It's not about committing to Jones, it's about extent he'll go to begin moving on from him.
Exactly. I am not sure why we keep hanging on every word that these guys say on press conferences. They intentionally don’t say anything useful.
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If I were Mara I'd either fire both Schoen and Daboll or reset the clock on both of them, pretending '22 and '23 never happened.
My instruction to them (or their replacements) would be to find a way to absorb whatever pain necessary to get Jones off the roster immediately, and to restock the QB room this offseason come hell or high water. Every asset is tradeable, up to and including Thibodeaux.
This draft is stacked with quarterbacks. The Giants have no quarterbacks. Enough already.
I believe they'll get a reset and they'll take a QB in the first two rounds. There is some precedent Schoen and Daboll can point to: The Eagles ditching Wentz after giving him a huge contract, and the 49ers going with Purdy after a double-whammy of trading up for Lance and paying Jimmy G $25 mil.
The Jaguars jettisoned Bortles after he face-planted following a contract extension. Unfortunately it took 2 more years after that to get Trevor Lawrence.
Mara is not firing a GM for believing in Jones, and replacing him with a new GM tasked with getting rid of Jones. Telling Mara Jones is part of the problem is the fastest way to find yourself being escorted out of 1925 Giants Way without even a souvenir pen.
Unfortunately, you are 100% correct.
Still, it's the holiday season. So let me dream...
@art_stapleton
There are questions with every college prospect, no matter the position.
When you see what current Giants staff has done with Tommy DeVito, an undrafted rookie, in such a short time, the confidence should be in what they are showing in terms of evaluation and development.
Because of this, Giants should get a QB every year until they hit on one, whether that's Round 1 to UDFA or free agent vet.
That's where the trust should be at the position for this regime.
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Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
There are questions with every college prospect, no matter the position.
When you see what current Giants staff has done with Tommy DeVito, an undrafted rookie, in such a short time, the confidence should be in what they are showing in terms of evaluation and development.
Because of this, Giants should get a QB every year until they hit on one, whether that's Round 1 to UDFA or free agent vet.
That's where the trust should be at the position for this regime.
I believe Art reflects where the org is going. We aren't likely to get Maye or Caleb, but we'll get a solid QB prospect and I'm psyched to see what Daboll can do with them.
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that is what makes the most economic sense and i think there are enough qbs in this draft they will find someone they like.
it may be an obvious name they can get with their top 5-10 pick.
or it may be a trade up into the 20's from the second round.
too early to tell other than their reducing odds at picking 1st/2nd, but this is a good qb draft so i would bet on them finding a dance partner.
the justin fields type move doesnt make much sense to me. whoever gets him is going to pay the price of a starter. the timelines with him and jones are too duplicative. i also dont see much logic in wasting a chunk of the cap on another limited backup Tyrod.
What does economic sense matter if they draft a QB in the first who plays like Wilson, Lance, Fields or Jones? Do you think any of those players, or Kenny Pickett, will have their 5th year options enacted?
What does economic sense matter?
How about if Jones isn't ready before October because he's a guy that takes longer for whatever reason in his rehab?
Or suffers a setback?
Both are possibilities Schoen alluded to as reasons for needing to add a QB in the room.
So investing resources in the QB position is already a given from the horses mouth. The question is what is the best investment? If there is a player in the draft they like, and this draft appears a strong qb class, economically speaking that would unquestionably be the best way to go when even the Tyrod Taylor's of the world aren't cheap as FA. the worst case scenario of it being a wasted pick because jones comes back and plays well and stays healthy enough that he's here another 5+ years isn't a bad scenario.
No time machines. No crystal balls. Jones had a bad year the Giants didn't see coming, not to this degree. That doesn't mean the staff is incompetent. Doesn't mean if Jones was playing slightly better right now and NYG saw a QB in April they don't take him then either. DJ could be OK this season and NYG could still be taking a QB in April. Teams do this. KC did it. This same franchise did it in 04!
Not everything has to be so black and white.
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People here are drawing conclusions from the presser that just aren’t there. I didn’t interpret his comments as committing to Jones, I interpreted them as not broadcasting to the world they’re looking for an upgrade in the draft.
It's not about committing to Jones, it's about extent he'll go to begin moving on from him.
But, yes of course he's going to reveal much if anything. Some of us are extrapolating based on the pivot he'd have to sell to ownership to secure a premium QB prospect and the cap allocations, etc.
Schoen could go QB in the 2nd round, or try to trade back up into the 1st, to keep the costs in check.
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Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
There are questions with every college prospect, no matter the position.
When you see what current Giants staff has done with Tommy DeVito, an undrafted rookie, in such a short time, the confidence should be in what they are showing in terms of evaluation and development.
Because of this, Giants should get a QB every year until they hit on one, whether that's Round 1 to UDFA or free agent vet.
That's where the trust should be at the position for this regime.
Just an important caveat to the bold. Even if you find the right QB, you should continue to draft a QB every year somewhere in the draft.
But it is worth pointing out that DeVito performing competently is indeed a real credit to this coaching staff. He looks a helluva lot more poised than the $160M man ahead of him on the depth chart.
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In comment 16304951 WillVAB said:
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People here are drawing conclusions from the presser that just aren’t there. I didn’t interpret his comments as committing to Jones, I interpreted them as not broadcasting to the world they’re looking for an upgrade in the draft.
It's not about committing to Jones, it's about extent he'll go to begin moving on from him.
But, yes of course he's going to reveal much if anything. Some of us are extrapolating based on the pivot he'd have to sell to ownership to secure a premium QB prospect and the cap allocations, etc.
Schoen could go QB in the 2nd round, or try to trade back up into the 1st, to keep the costs in check.
... NOT going to reveal much ...
I wouldn't go down the road that the Panthers have.
Link - ( New Window )
But again, it could be a free agent, whatever, we’re going to have to address it at some point. We have a UFA here that we could always sign back. There’re different ways that we could address the position, but there’s no guarantees, as of right now, that Daniel will be ready Week 1. So, that’s how you’ve got to approach it. Who can we bring in that can maybe help us win a couple of games while Daniel gets healthy, or maybe Daniel will be ready Week 1. There’re just some unknowns right now, and we’ll know as we get closer to free agency where he is in his rehab and how we need to approach the offseason.
if there is a guy in the draft available to them who checks the boxes in bold, they will take him.
january/february they will get the senior bowl and the combine. they will know if there's anyone they like along with where jones is in his rehab with the halfway point hitting around when FA opens.
whether or not they sign a veteran backup before the draft will be pretty telling. or at least the guaranteed $ in their contract will be.
as much as people want to intuit that they are done with jones, or definitely doing one thing or another, there is a dynamic 6 month+ roster building process yet to unfold.
my bet is they end up drafting someone in the first round who checks those boxes to get a full 5 years of control, though not necessarily with their highest selection.
Hes been saying this since week 1 of 2022.
No time machines. No crystal balls. Jones had a bad year the Giants didn't see coming, not to this degree. That doesn't mean the staff is incompetent. Doesn't mean if Jones was playing slightly better right now and NYG saw a QB in April they don't take him then either. DJ could be OK this season and NYG could still be taking a QB in April. Teams do this. KC did it. This same franchise did it in 04!
Not everything has to be so black and white.
The Panthers may have made a mistake with Young.
It's so tough getting QB right.
The Panthers may have made a mistake with Young.
It's so tough getting QB right.
The mistake the saints have made is assuming their window was still open.
Unless he drafts a QB in the lottery and cuts the cord with Jones heading into 2024, his plan is going to be some patchwork nonsense with keeping Jones and taking a flyer on a long-shot QB prospect in 2024.
Guy blew it with Jones.
Daboll is much better at his job than Schoen. I'm convinced he is a legit HC in the NFL and knows how to lead.
Today's presser convinces me now that you have been right about Schoen all along. The contract he gave to DJ was easily the worst decision in this franchise's history. I have believed it was driven by Mara, but after listening to Schoen today, I now believe that it was Schoen who actually drove the DJ decision as you have correctly stated for months now. Mara was likely just blissfully along for the ride given his love for DJ. Was it a passive aggressive masterpiece by Mara? Perhaps. But Schoen deserves the primary blame on this, not Mara.
As a result, it is very hard to take what Schoen says seriously now. Yes, from a PR perspective, he said the appropriate things today. But a galactically stupid decision at the quarterback position requires an immediate pivot to restore credibility/confidence and I just don't see him doing so. Like Joe Douglas with Zach Wilson, I see Schoen now trying to double down on the stupidity and running back DJ one more time next year.
So he will add a late first round or day two 2024 draft quarterback selection to join DeVito in the quarterback room and focus primarily on adding offensive weapons/protection in the draft and free agency to attempt to justify the inconceivable notion that at the height of a rebuilding process, nearly twenty percent of the cap next year is tied to a backup level quarterback talent. How can a man who did this possibly be trusted ever again? A quick pivot to a better future, ala John Lynch trading Trey Lance and moving on to Brock Purdy or Howie Roseman trading Carson Wentz and moving on to Jalen Hurts, is the only possible way.
We will instead likely be stuck with this "patchwork nonsense" that you aptly describe. Can it be successful? Absolutely not. Can Schoen survive it? I doubt it. If the team doesn't draft a "Stroud or Purdy" level of quality quarterback in April and DJ is DJ again next year, meaning losing games with dreadful quarterback play, all eyes from both the players and the fans will turn to Mara and expect a major change.
Daboll is safe in my opinion. Getting DeVito to play as well as or better than DJ did last year tells me all I need to know about Daboll's capacity to elevate quarterback talent to win in the NFL. And this is no easy feat as we learned today re Frank Reich. Daboll's unique talent in this regard is absolutely the necessary condition we need in a head coach going forward. So if/when we finally get the right quarterback in the building, I am convinced Daboll will elevate him to the zenith of his ceiling and effectively scheme the position to win meaningful games. Knowing that we already have that in the building is actually a huge advantage for this franchise.
So the fall guy instead will be Schoen. If your thesis is correct and 2024 is yet another clown show season, ala 2021 and 2023, Schoen will be gone before the sun rises on New Year's day 2025.
The Vacchiano trial balloon about NYG still believing in Jones, and how they wouldn't necessarily take a QB even if they had a top 2 pick, was floated one week after Jones' ACL.
The money quote from the "team source": "There's a long way to go (until the draft)," said the team source. "But I don't think anyone has given up on him yet."
That presumption to speak for everyone else strikes me as coming from the guy at the top of the pyramid, John Mara himself.
vacch - ( New Window )
I urge all of us to keep an open mind, at least through May.
On one hand you are complimenting Lynch for pivoting to Purdy after trading up for Lance. That quick pivot was the last pick in the draft.
On the other hand you are saying Schoen will double down on Jones, but he will draft a late first round QB or early 2nd round QB.
Huh? That would be a much more aggressive pivot than what SF did with Purdy.
Schoen will have to get a new QB because of Jones health issues. How he goes about that will play out beginning in the next draft. We have a big talent deficit which he can continue to address moving forward. It will be beat to death by the same people daily. The smart fans know that this rebuild will take at least 2 more years. That has nothing to do with the QB. It is on the organization.
I am always interested in these thought processes. You wouldn't trade up for a QB because the possibility exists for failure, but you would take what is perceived to be a less highly rated player even though chance for failure or disappointment is arguably higher, but the potential reward is lesser.
I urge all of us to keep an open mind, at least through May.
I think it is pretty binary at this point. They need to be on an accelerated track of improvement next year with a much higher degree of certainty as to the quarterback position going forward. The blind shill support of Joe Schoen is a thing of the past.
If instead DJ is back to starting games when he returns from injury and the quarterback they draft appears to be more DJ/Young/Darnold/Mayfield and less Stroud/Burrow/Herbert/Mahomes then this rebuild is DOA and Schoen will have sunk to Gettleman levels of credibility...
On one hand you are complimenting Lynch for pivoting to Purdy after trading up for Lance. That quick pivot was the last pick in the draft.
On the other hand you are saying Schoen will double down on Jones, but he will draft a late first round QB or early 2nd round QB.
Huh? That would be a much more aggressive pivot than what SF did with Purdy.
I expect Schoen to "cover his ass" and draft a quarterback where the value makes the most sense. That is likely late first round assuming now that we are out on CW and DM. But I also expect DJ to be the starting quarterback as soon as he is healthy. Why? Because it justifies the stupidity of the contract. So this is a "patchwork of nonsense" as BW has aptly described it.
The right answer is to keep DJ off the field in 2024 and cut him as soon as it is feasible given cap considerations. And start the guy from day one whom you believe is the next quarterback who will lead this team to a championship. If that is Drake Maye, whom I believe at this moment is the right guy for this franchise, than you find a way to get Drake Maye. If Drake Maye turns out to be CJ Stroud, you have your guy. If he turns out to be Bryce Young, you move on as early as possible from Drake Maye. And then you draft or trade for another guy. And another. You do not stew in stench by clinging to bad decisions for years, blowing smoke up the asses of the fans of the franchise.
My point is that there is no rebuild until you have the right quarterback. Not the quarterback who you fall in love with or believe will be great because of the way he looks in gym shorts. A quarterback that has the talent to win NFL championships. That is my point. It is not ambiguous.
Today's presser convinces me now that you have been right about Schoen all along. The contract he gave to DJ was easily the worst decision in this franchise's history. I have believed it was driven by Mara, but after listening to Schoen today, I now believe that it was Schoen who actually drove the DJ decision as you have correctly stated for months now. Mara was likely just blissfully along for the ride given his love for DJ. Was it a passive aggressive masterpiece by Mara? Perhaps. But Schoen deserves the primary blame on this, not Mara.
As a result, it is very hard to take what Schoen says seriously now. Yes, from a PR perspective, he said the appropriate things today. But a galactically stupid decision at the quarterback position requires an immediate pivot to restore credibility/confidence and I just don't see him doing so. Like Joe Douglas with Zach Wilson, I see Schoen now trying to double down on the stupidity and running back DJ one more time next year.
I read that transcript today of Schoen's presser and found this part very, very revealing.
Schoen:
I read that very clearly. And it rings of Jones being the victim of more bad luck in his career and he just needs more help. Again.
Welcome to the early announcement of the GM double down...
Daniel can do no wrong. "It's a team game."
But you and bw are correct, the contract for Jones is itself a fireable offense. The only way it isn't is if ownership forced his hand.
Daniel can do no wrong. "It's a team game."
Both of these sentiments that you and BW describe are precisely what made me cringe today. Let's be clear - relative to expectations and positional value, DJ has been monumentally worse than Evan Neal in 2023. It really isn't even a fair comparison...
Daniel can do no wrong. "It's a team game."
I didn't like it either. But to some degree, Schoen has to cover his ass with some comments like this too since he executed that contract.
I think Mara has to give them some grace, he's replaced coaches quickly and I think will be loathe to do it again. Especially since Daboll's teams have shown some signs (except vs the Cowboys and likely the Eagles).
I think Dabs gets his guy and another 2 years to show significant progress.
Daboll know’s tge QB position, get him some guys he likes.
They were going to pay him something. You're being absurd.
Big difference in available talent at the 2 extremes - we win out vs lose out remaining games.
Although late April is too early for a recovery timeline - there can definitely be signs of a complication or a smooth head of schedule recovery.
DeVito performance remainder of the way (and he should start all remaining games) provides clarity whether to even consider him as a bridge starter or even roster option.