I thought Schoen provided some clues regarding the position going forward.
First, Daniel Jones will be on the roster next year. This should be a surprise to no one considering his contract and cap charge next year ($47M). There is no way to move off Jones and I'd assume there is no trade market. So, Jones takes up a spot in the QB room.
This is where I thought his comments were telling:
-Schoen said there are multiple avenues to address the position which include free agency and trade.
-He brought up the bust rate for top 10 QB's drafted while specifically citing the 2018 draft.
-He admitted that they will need to address QB which again isn't a surprise, but it shows just how bare the Giants are at this position.
-He talked about dealing with the NY market. I know some will disagree with me, but I think this does matter. Hurts is an example of a QB who provides no distractions.
A lot depends where NYG picks, for the sake of discussion let's give them two more wins. They squeak out a win somewhere and beat a resting Eagles team to get to 6-11. This probably puts them in the 5-10 range in the draft.
Would Schoen trade their 24 first, 24 second, 25 first, 25 third and Jalin Hyatt to move to the first pick in the draft? I doubt it. Given the roster holes and the financial commitment to Jones in 2024, I don't see it.
I think it's much more likely to trade into the back of the first and draft a QB. Maybe they sit tight and Daniels is there or maybe they can do a modest trade up in the first to secure one of the top tier QB's, but I don't see a situation where they mortgage a ton of draft picks and a young player like Carolina did.
I could see Schoen getting creative though. This would be trading a mid round pick for someone like Justin Fields or someone else out there that is young and still cost effective. One of Daboll's strengths is developing QB's, so maybe a guy like Fields does better under Daboll.
With Jones assured a roster spot, it makes it tricky though. Do you commit to bring back DeVito knowing he wouldn't last on the practice squad? Do you carry three QB's on game day?
I'd bet whoever is brought in (draft or trade) will have a strong chance to be the starting QB next year. I wonder if they feel the need to bring in two QB's or bring back DeVito and keep developing him.
They were going to pay him something. You're being absurd.
Franchise tag or be honest about Jones production and sign a veteran placeholder on a one year deal like Mayfield.
That said I hope they draft one in rd 1.
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Eric - the contract for Jones is a firable offense? They gave him what amounts to be a 2 year contract after he took them to the playoffs.
They were going to pay him something. You're being absurd.
Franchise tag or be honest about Jones production and sign a veteran placeholder on a one year deal like Mayfield.
This is old real estate I never mind going over. But the FT or TT was the more prudent move.
Unfortunately, Schoen blinked and Team Jones has a lot of guaranteed money and probably another audition or two to prove Schoen correct...
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Today's presser convinces me now that you have been right about Schoen all along. The contract he gave to DJ was easily the worst decision in this franchise's history. I have believed it was driven by Mara, but after listening to Schoen today, I now believe that it was Schoen who actually drove the DJ decision as you have correctly stated for months now. Mara was likely just blissfully along for the ride given his love for DJ. Was it a passive aggressive masterpiece by Mara? Perhaps. But Schoen deserves the primary blame on this, not Mara.
As a result, it is very hard to take what Schoen says seriously now. Yes, from a PR perspective, he said the appropriate things today. But a galactically stupid decision at the quarterback position requires an immediate pivot to restore credibility/confidence and I just don't see him doing so. Like Joe Douglas with Zach Wilson, I see Schoen now trying to double down on the stupidity and running back DJ one more time next year.
I read that transcript today of Schoen's presser and found this part very, very revealing.
Schoen:
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I think does Daniel wish he could have some throws back or some games back or do some things differently? Probably, but it’s a team game. There’s 11 guys out there and everybody’s got to be on the same page and do their job. So, we’ve got to continue to build the team. The quarterback position is important, but it’s ultimately a team game and it’s not all on Daniel by any means.
I read that very clearly. And it rings of Jones being the victim of more bad luck in his career and he just needs more help. Again.
Welcome to the early announcement of the GM double down...
I would say a qb is more reliant on his teammates to do his job than a RT is on his teammates to perform his job, which is why Schoen said what he did.
this is all pretty fundamental. they made a calculated gamble to guarantee jones 2 years instead of 1 on the tag, and 50% of what they gambled turned out to be a total bust so far. they are likely to give jones 2nd chance and it is possible he gets back on track, though im sure they will more significantly hedge their bet this time.
Justin Fields is a better QB than Jones. As usual, you’re clueless.
They were going to pay him something. You're being absurd.
They should have franchised or let him walk.
Absurd was giving him a 4-year deal with that much guaranteed money. Only a Jones groupie would argue otherwise. But again, you're convinced he is a 10-12 best QB in the NFL. LOL
this is all pretty fundamental. they made a calculated gamble to guarantee jones 2 years instead of 1 on the tag, and 50% of what they gambled turned out to be a total bust so far. they are likely to give jones 2nd chance and it is possible he gets back on track, though im sure they will more significantly hedge their bet this time.
The biggest red flag with Schoen and Daboll isn't the 4-8 season.
It's the contract.
They were right.
They were right.
Laughing when he was drafted
Laughing when he was given the contract
Will continue to laugh as long as he's our starting QB
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on board with it. if dr james andrews was your closest colleague of 10+ years and you hired him to lead your surgical team, would you move forward on a major TJS case without consulting him? Or worse against his advice?
this is all pretty fundamental. they made a calculated gamble to guarantee jones 2 years instead of 1 on the tag, and 50% of what they gambled turned out to be a total bust so far. they are likely to give jones 2nd chance and it is possible he gets back on track, though im sure they will more significantly hedge their bet this time.
The biggest red flag with Schoen and Daboll isn't the 4-8 season.
It's the contract.
that's a fair position to take now, though im not sure they'd concede the mistake until they have a starting QB they like better than Jones.
the roster building process obviously needs to play out for 2024 but looking back at 2023/2022 there certainly wasnt any obvious alternative they missed. the 2022 draft was perhaps even more abominable than thought at the time and the 2023 group other than stroud hasnt done much more than tommy devito has.
i mean it's not impossible that there are teams that would take tommy devito over any of the first 5 qbs selected in 2022 (pickett, ridder, willis, corral, howell).
What scares me is they misjudged him so badly.
They were right.
fans of other teams laughed at eli too even as he won super bowls. "worst qb to win the sb" etc.
fans earlier this year were laughing at russell wilson/denver now he's on a run.
fans are/have been equally laughing at kyler and watson the past couple years through injury and bad play.
zach wilson, mac jones, kenny pickett, have been laughed at all year.
add all that up and it's like 10+ recent first round picks and $.5bn worth of laughter.
tua was laughed at pre-mcdaniels.
it's really not that complicated, finding quality qbs is hard. fans laugh at teams that lose. they laugh less at teams that win, they wait until they lose in the playoffs like dak then laugh some more.
only 1 team is happy at the end of the year.
Instead we are here.
What scares me is they misjudged him so badly.
What got lost in the sauce, IMV, is they seem to have glossed over the tremendous job Dabka did managing Jones's game.
The attached the training wheels and orchestrated a coaching masterpiece.
What scares me is they misjudged him so badly.
they paid him what is basically 12th most for QBs right now, and i dont think that was an unfair valuation of his caliber of play. tearing an ACL you would obviously have preferred to have him on the tag, because next year if they chose to keep him they'd get him for less than they will have paid out, but just as much could go right next year (like last year) as went wrong this year.
i think they more badly misjudged the offensive line they assembled that got both he and tyrod nearly killed.
and perhaps even more badly misjudged the odds of a 31 year old with a lengthy list of soft tissue injuries finding the fountain of youth.
and perhaps worst of all misjudged that it was worth giving parris campbell $5m when he keeping him over jamison crowder probably cost them a win.
and maybe even worse than all that drafted neal to fill the role of ereck flowers part deux.
i guess what im saying is that as much as went right in year 1, went wrong in year 2, almost all across the board.
hopefully they learn from all of it, and a good step in the right direction to that end would be drafting a quality QB to hedge jones and spending their FA$ on fixing the OL for real for once.
Instead we are here.
the obvious outcome of taylor playing any regular snaps was what happened - mediocre results and an injury within a month. that is what he's been every year since 2017.
We need to close the gap on the Cowboys and Eagles.
What scares me is they misjudged him so badly.
It is scary but there are some risks to take in players. However, Schoen had a perfect hedge for that risk at his disposal, the Franchise Tag, but he fumbled it.
That laughing at the Jones deal was more than justified at the time because Schoen had that one-year "Get out of Jail" Free Card and he used it on the wrong guy.
WTF?
They botched this. I hope they know it.
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The issue is they had their hands on Jones for a full year....up close and personal. They saw him on and off the field. I think they were swayed by his intelligence, work ethnic, character, and other top notch intangibles. But they didn't pay enough attention to the player.
What scares me is they misjudged him so badly.
What got lost in the sauce, IMV, is they seem to have glossed over the tremendous job Dabka did managing Jones's game.
The attached the training wheels and orchestrated a coaching masterpiece.
on this we agree but it's not just jones - they got a lot out of a little across the board. richie james and hodgins were bargain finds who were productive. slayton was on the cut line and took a paycut and turned productive. bellinger, cager, myrick, even tanner hudson were all productive.
they bought their own press clippings and thought "wow imagine what this offense is going to look like when we add some higher end talent?"
(aside, many of us bought that to some degree too)
except the higher end talent they bought was fools gold, and the OL regressed because they didn't get good play out of the young guys they chose to lean on. a near total offensive failure resulted.
the only positive from this year is that they've shown some glimmers of hope with devito. not that he's playing so well but that they have designed a semi-functional offense around him.
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They already planned for a 2023 without Daniel Jones. Taylor was already on the roster and is, as we've seen, Jones's equal (at minimum) as a player. The plan was Taylor + a draft pick/UDFA as a bridge to the 2024 draft. That gave them two offseasons and two drafts to find a quarterback, with the knowledge that the 2024 draft was likely to be strong at QB. It was a viable, sound plan. It was a cheap placeholder that works allow them to put a representative product on the field while flushing out Gettleman's garbage. If they had just stuck to that plan they would be aligned.
Instead we are here.
the obvious outcome of taylor playing any regular snaps was what happened - mediocre results and an injury within a month. that is what he's been every year since 2017.
Which is no different than Jones, except at a fraction of the cost.
bw is correct above: Daboll flew an airplane through a canyon blindfolded in 2022. He recognized very early that Jones could only run a remedial offense and adjusted accordingly.
Daniel Jones has always been a poor quarterback. His coaches have just had varying success managing his shortcomings.
We need to close the gap on the Cowboys and Eagles.
the gap with both of those teams is most pronounced on the OL and has been for a decade.
So why did Daboll go along with this?
Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse?
@rydunleavy
For me, Joe Schoen's thoughts on #Giants QB situation can be summed up in these quotes:
"The expectation is when Daniel’s healthy that he will be our starting quarterback."
"I think we're going to have to do something on the quarterback, whether it's free agency or the draft."
"We’ll (draft) the best player available."
"Look at the past however many years of top 10 quarterbacks. I just went through the 2018 Draft and how many of those guys are starters, how many are with different teams? Some are out of the league that were taken in the first round from that draft. It’s not a position you can just evaluate on film, I don’t believe."
My thoughts ... most likely scenario today (a lot can change) is that the #NYGiants draft a top non-QB in RD1 and look to hit a Jalen Hurts-esque home run in RD2 (they have 2 picks) based on trusting all their in-person evaluations, knowing they have Daniel Jones in reserve.
WTF?
They botched this. I hope they know it.
This has to be ownership, doesn't it? I can't believe Schoen is that stupid.
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past "hedging".
We need to close the gap on the Cowboys and Eagles.
the gap with both of those teams is most pronounced on the OL and has been for a decade.
Yes. But it is at QB too.
Look around the league. If you have the QB, you're in every game.
So why did Daboll go along with this?
Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse?
I'll say it again: we know God damned well this is ownership.
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In comment 16305316 Go Terps said:
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They already planned for a 2023 without Daniel Jones. Taylor was already on the roster and is, as we've seen, Jones's equal (at minimum) as a player. The plan was Taylor + a draft pick/UDFA as a bridge to the 2024 draft. That gave them two offseasons and two drafts to find a quarterback, with the knowledge that the 2024 draft was likely to be strong at QB. It was a viable, sound plan. It was a cheap placeholder that works allow them to put a representative product on the field while flushing out Gettleman's garbage. If they had just stuck to that plan they would be aligned.
Instead we are here.
the obvious outcome of taylor playing any regular snaps was what happened - mediocre results and an injury within a month. that is what he's been every year since 2017.
Which is no different than Jones, except at a fraction of the cost.
bw is correct above: Daboll flew an airplane through a canyon blindfolded in 2022. He recognized very early that Jones could only run a remedial offense and adjusted accordingly.
Daniel Jones has always been a poor quarterback. His coaches have just had varying success managing his shortcomings.
i know you like to pretend there was no football during your gap year, but jones didnt miss any time last year and won a playoff game. tyrod got carted off in his limited preseason action and injured within a few series of entering the bears game.
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Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
For me, Joe Schoen's thoughts on #Giants QB situation can be summed up in these quotes:
"The expectation is when Daniel’s healthy that he will be our starting quarterback."
"I think we're going to have to do something on the quarterback, whether it's free agency or the draft."
"We’ll (draft) the best player available."
"Look at the past however many years of top 10 quarterbacks. I just went through the 2018 Draft and how many of those guys are starters, how many are with different teams? Some are out of the league that were taken in the first round from that draft. It’s not a position you can just evaluate on film, I don’t believe."
My thoughts ... most likely scenario today (a lot can change) is that the #NYGiants draft a top non-QB in RD1 and look to hit a Jalen Hurts-esque home run in RD2 (they have 2 picks) based on trusting all their in-person evaluations, knowing they have Daniel Jones in reserve.
i think the only thing he has wrong is that they will move into the first round to get the 5th year option.
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In comment 16305326 Eric from BBI said:
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past "hedging".
We need to close the gap on the Cowboys and Eagles.
the gap with both of those teams is most pronounced on the OL and has been for a decade.
Yes. But it is at QB too.
Look around the league. If you have the QB, you're in every game.
which of those qbs should schoen/dabs have acquired since they were hired?
WTF?
They botched this. I hope they know it.
Yes, I heard it live. Hopefully words to let Saquon know he is interested but the contract better be market (not what Saquon thinks is market for a RB). Especially for a RB that we are now taking off the field on 3rd down!
Just awful they didn't just tag Jones and then let Saquon test the market and come back with his best offer to match.
Schoen screwed up and showed poor judgment on these deals. He needs to be better.
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and if you listened to Schoen today, he sounds like he might want to give Saquon a long-term deal.
WTF?
They botched this. I hope they know it.
This has to be ownership, doesn't it? I can't believe Schoen is that stupid.
No, otherwise Schoen would have been forced to use the 5th year option before the season. He drank the kool-aid from an overachieving year and hot game versus a crappy Minn defense.
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In comment 16305330 Eric from BBI said:
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and if you listened to Schoen today, he sounds like he might want to give Saquon a long-term deal.
WTF?
They botched this. I hope they know it.
This has to be ownership, doesn't it? I can't believe Schoen is that stupid.
No, otherwise Schoen would have been forced to use the 5th year option before the season. He drank the kool-aid from an overachieving year and hot game versus a crappy Minn defense.
Whoops sorry. I meant the deal for Jones.
Kind of feel ownership told Schoen not to let Saquon go. But he could have still tagged Jones and given Saquon something similar to what they agreed upon + a tip.
Spot on. The ability to identify and fix mistakes quickly is probably just as important as making the right calls.
I think Schoen will draft a QB but I think he is going to raise his standard if he chooses to draft one with his first pick or has to move up even higher. He has very little margin for error (contract/on the field product).
He can accomplish a lot for the franchise with a trade down over the next two years with extra picks in the draft.
This franchise still has a significant issue on both fronts with the OL being much worse off. If executed well JS could do a lot of good for the franchise.
correct. and to schoen's credit he reversed himself on pugh/tyree phillips to positive effect. they dumped the bad experiments at punt returner and signed a real returner also to positive effect, just not before it cost them a game.
his comment that i appreciated most today was owning up to the mistakes at punt returner. id have liked to hear a little more of that because it shows learning from mistakes.
So why did Daboll go along with this?
Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse?
I'll say it again: we know God damned well this is ownership.
Then again, the love for Daniel Jones is so odd to me...this would be like us going to into '98 & saying, 'Well, we haven't done right by Dave Brown. Let's run it back.'
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So why did Daboll go along with this?
Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse?
I'll say it again: we know God damned well this is ownership.
Haha you need to believe that because you know how ridiculous it sounds to think you know better than Schoen & Daboll.
which would only be half as ridiculous as his assertion that ownership stopped them from drafting malik willis 5th overall because of race.
Then again, the love for Daniel Jones is so odd to me...this would be like us going to into '98 & saying, 'Well, we haven't done right by Dave Brown. Let's run it back.'
they will get a QB if there is a QB they like that they can get.
i do think this year will have enough options that they will like one of them, but that's the fundamental mistake people make. you can't just order up a qb you are willing to invest a chunk of your career in from amazon prime. people are already declaring bryce young a bust and he is almost certainly a higher caliber prospect than anyone they will have a shot at (i'd take him in a heartbeat btw if whoever the new carolina regime is wants to start over).
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People here are drawing conclusions from the presser that just aren’t there. I didn’t interpret his comments as committing to Jones, I interpreted them as not broadcasting to the world they’re looking for an upgrade in the draft.
Exactly. I am not sure why we keep hanging on every word that these guys say on press conferences. They intentionally don’t say anything useful.
Agree 1000% and most of these posts just come off as pissed off fans wanting their pound of flesh.
It's silly.
Instead we are here.
Nah, Tyrod was a poor signing from the start. Guy had already gotten the fragile label when he turned 30 getting banged up in Cleveland, LA, and Houston before joining the Giants. It was a bad idea to sign a guy who was showing signs of not being able to stay healthy for a season to back up a guy who had shown signs of not being able to stay healthy for a season. We got really lucky in 2022 that Jones didn't get injured in spite of his increased running. That was obviously an outlier.
Taylor is on the wrong side of 30, has a sleight frame, and is simply injury prone at this point.
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In comment 16304951 WillVAB said:
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People here are drawing conclusions from the presser that just aren’t there. I didn’t interpret his comments as committing to Jones, I interpreted them as not broadcasting to the world they’re looking for an upgrade in the draft.
It's not about committing to Jones, it's about extent he'll go to begin moving on from him.
But, yes of course he's going to reveal much if anything. Some of us are extrapolating based on the pivot he'd have to sell to ownership to secure a premium QB prospect and the cap allocations, etc.
Schoen could go QB in the 2nd round, or try to trade back up into the 1st, to keep the costs in check.
Daniel Jones was never their guy. He’s probably ownership’s guy but he’s never been Schoen/Daboll’s guy. No 5th year option, a mid market extension with an out after year 2, and now publicly saying they’re going to address QB in one way or another.
Some of the shit being thrown around here with the benefit of hindsight is ridiculous.
So why did Daboll go along with this?
Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse?
I think Daboll was just the low man on the totem poll. Go back and check his guarded comments about Jones even though they were winning games. He finally caved later in the season when I think it was made clear that Jones was going to be the guy going forward.