I thought Schoen provided some clues regarding the position going forward.
First, Daniel Jones will be on the roster next year. This should be a surprise to no one considering his contract and cap charge next year ($47M). There is no way to move off Jones and I'd assume there is no trade market. So, Jones takes up a spot in the QB room.
This is where I thought his comments were telling:
-Schoen said there are multiple avenues to address the position which include free agency and trade.
-He brought up the bust rate for top 10 QB's drafted while specifically citing the 2018 draft.
-He admitted that they will need to address QB which again isn't a surprise, but it shows just how bare the Giants are at this position.
-He talked about dealing with the NY market. I know some will disagree with me, but I think this does matter. Hurts is an example of a QB who provides no distractions.
A lot depends where NYG picks, for the sake of discussion let's give them two more wins. They squeak out a win somewhere and beat a resting Eagles team to get to 6-11. This probably puts them in the 5-10 range in the draft.
Would Schoen trade their 24 first, 24 second, 25 first, 25 third and Jalin Hyatt to move to the first pick in the draft? I doubt it. Given the roster holes and the financial commitment to Jones in 2024, I don't see it.
I think it's much more likely to trade into the back of the first and draft a QB. Maybe they sit tight and Daniels is there or maybe they can do a modest trade up in the first to secure one of the top tier QB's, but I don't see a situation where they mortgage a ton of draft picks and a young player like Carolina did.
I could see Schoen getting creative though. This would be trading a mid round pick for someone like Justin Fields or someone else out there that is young and still cost effective. One of Daboll's strengths is developing QB's, so maybe a guy like Fields does better under Daboll.
With Jones assured a roster spot, it makes it tricky though. Do you commit to bring back DeVito knowing he wouldn't last on the practice squad? Do you carry three QB's on game day?
I'd bet whoever is brought in (draft or trade) will have a strong chance to be the starting QB next year. I wonder if they feel the need to bring in two QB's or bring back DeVito and keep developing him.
It's silly.
its a rorschach test. people see what they want to see
Why it works for Arizona? They want to move on from Murray and take a rookie QB in 24 and since they will likely be picking top 5, have their sights set on 2 QBs--one of which should be at 5. They get their guy, move on from Murray but get to add a stop gap vet not making insane money for longer than 2 years.
It only works for NYG if they love Murray, obviously.
***This trade would have to be orchestrated on draft day to ensure the Cards can in fact draft their guy. IF their QB is there, the trade goes through.
Do you bite? Do you counter offer? Or do you hang up the phone and say DJM is an asshole for even thinking about adding Murray...
HELL NO!
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who have watched football for 20+ years who still try to "decode" press conferences.
It's silly.
its a rorschach test. people see what they want to see
Schoen is arguably the most important person in the NYG organization right now. He's in charge of rebuilding this moribund franchise.
And since he rarely speaks publicly, why wouldn't there be strong interest in studying his words? Especially when the team is nosediving again and their $160M QB is injured again and looked horrible when he played...
@JackKennedy
- Spent a 3rd on Will Grier
- Signed Bridgewater ($33M guaranteed).
- Cut Cam
- Traded a 2nd, 4th and 6th for Darnold
- Traded Bridgewater for a 6th
- Picked up Darnold's $18.85M option
- Signed Cam
- Spent a 3rd on Matt Corral
- Traded for Baker
- Cut Baker
- Cut Cam
- Drafted Young over Stroud
- Fired Frank Reich after 11 games
The Giants were in a tough position. At the time, QB was either DJ or TT. DJ was the obvious choice. For the people wanting TT as a starter would be basically punting on 2023 from the start. Dumb after DJ had gotten us to the playoffs.
Still DJ's signing was questionable--everyone knew it was risky--and in hindsight, right at this moment, DJ should have been franchised. but that's hindsight which one cannot change, but one can learn from it.
Remember Schoen and Daboll are first time GM and Head coaches. We need give them time to see if they can figure it out.
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Kenjac
@JackKennedy
- Spent a 3rd on Will Grier
- Signed Bridgewater ($33M guaranteed).
- Cut Cam
- Traded a 2nd, 4th and 6th for Darnold
- Traded Bridgewater for a 6th
- Picked up Darnold's $18.85M option
- Signed Cam
- Spent a 3rd on Matt Corral
- Traded for Baker
- Cut Baker
- Cut Cam
- Drafted Young over Stroud
- Fired Frank Reich after 11 games
There, but for the grace of god go the Giants. This is what QB hell looks like and if the Giants don’t start making better decisions, this is what our future will look like too.
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In comment 16305390 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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who have watched football for 20+ years who still try to "decode" press conferences.
It's silly.
its a rorschach test. people see what they want to see
Schoen is arguably the most important person in the NYG organization right now. He's in charge of rebuilding this moribund franchise.
And since he rarely speaks publicly, why wouldn't there be strong interest in studying his words? Especially when the team is nosediving again and their $160M QB is injured again and looked horrible when he played...
I get *why* there's interest, but hasn't everyone learned by now that they say nothing in press conferences?
The exceptions are Mara, who often puts his foot in his mouth, and occasional lunatics at their wits end like Joe Judge.
Coaches and GMs don't give you anything. They learn how not to just as much as they learn how to coach. They teach media relations classes on this inside the league. Trying to find hidden meaning is just filling in the blanks with what you want to hear.
Jones' injury profile so early in his career would weigh against him.
None of the other QBs likely have a first round grade. So he's thinking QB in 2nd or 3rd and would therefore likely be guys who need time to develop.
So DJ starts and a guy like McCarthy or Penix get a year to learn.
As a side note, I am not sold on Maye. To me, the only two QBs who look like potentially special, franchise altering players are Williams and Daniels.
I get *why* there's interest, but hasn't everyone learned by now that they say nothing in press conferences?
The exceptions are Mara, who often puts his foot in his mouth, and occasional lunatics at their wits end like Joe Judge.
Coaches and GMs don't give you anything. They learn how not to just as much as they learn how to coach. They teach media relations classes on this inside the league. Trying to find hidden meaning is just filling in the blanks with what you want to hear.
To each their own. I find them very interesting, especially watching them and then reading the transcript.
For example, I was surprised how critical Schoen was towards Neal. Yet on Jones, Schoen basically said he was a victim of circumstances.
I have no problem with the criticism lodged at Neal. But, JFC, Jones was God awful when he played, too.
No one on this team, especially the offense, should be immune from criticism.
The "hidden meaning" I take from that it is Jones really is Schoen's QB moving forward. You may and others may disagree, but to me that's a tell.
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In comment 16305462 dancing blue bear said:
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In comment 16305390 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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who have watched football for 20+ years who still try to "decode" press conferences.
It's silly.
its a rorschach test. people see what they want to see
Schoen is arguably the most important person in the NYG organization right now. He's in charge of rebuilding this moribund franchise.
And since he rarely speaks publicly, why wouldn't there be strong interest in studying his words? Especially when the team is nosediving again and their $160M QB is injured again and looked horrible when he played...
I get *why* there's interest, but hasn't everyone learned by now that they say nothing in press conferences?
The exceptions are Mara, who often puts his foot in his mouth, and occasional lunatics at their wits end like Joe Judge.
Coaches and GMs don't give you anything. They learn how not to just as much as they learn how to coach. They teach media relations classes on this inside the league. Trying to find hidden meaning is just filling in the blanks with what you want to hear.
dont agree, they all let stuff out and schoen has been more candid than most. off the top of my head from today:
don't see neal as a guard
took responsibility for the punt return fiasco at beginning of the year, specifically said they had guys in draft they liked who went earlier than they expected
need to add a qb to the depth chart (duh)
confirmed that they gave leonard williams a choice on trade
things can obviously change, they could fire bobby johnson the day after the season ends and the new guy could decide to move neal to guard, but like i said schoen has been pretty forthright in his time as GM. last year he confirmed during bye week they had extension conversations with 2 players (later reported to be love/barkley). in the spring he said tagging jones was a "worst case scenario". when they drafted neal they asked why and he said "because ekwonu was gone" indicating they had similar grades on both. i think he said that same draft year they had 6 guys they liked for picks #5/#7.
surely you understand there's an obvious difference between revealing:
competitive information like negotiations w/ external parties, draft boards, etc
and
insights into decisions already made, players under contract, general perspective from within the org, etc
things change every day in every profession, really not that hard to take anything re the future witha grain of salt knowing nobody is clairvoyant.
He’s gotta play better. We believe he will. No thoughts of moving him.
I would have liked to hear some follow up on how they approached the season, training camp, oline reps. It seemed really soft and chill (from my couch)
I def think they were not ready for the season and after getting punched I. The mouth the entire team and coaches staggered around for several weeks before they looked remotely coherent.
There are multiple ways of interpreting a tell like that . It could mean Neal is on way stronger footing than Jones. Or that the owner has been making comments about one player, so that requires hedging & vagueness, but not Neal, so Schoen can be bit more direct there.
Who knows? Let’s interpret things based on firmer information.
i think mara is done with teh fire carousel at least at GM.
So why did Daboll go along with this?
Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse?
Just me here, but if I hired a new coordinator and installed a QB's 3rd offense in 4 years, I would make it less complicated, not because of the talent of the QB but because it is the intelligent thing to do.
It worked to the tune of coach of the year.
Everyone here gets far too much wrong to be talking like experts.
When anyone speaks with CERTAINTY like they KNOW, what Daboll or Schoen think or thought, you can only be certain of ONE THING.
That you are listening to an idiot.
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Exactly regarding the remedial offense.
So why did Daboll go along with this?
Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse?
They ran a remedial offense because the offensive line was so poor. You guys act like a simple offense is bad. It can be very good. You do not need to do a lot well. It is much better to a few things well then try to do a bunch of things mediocre.
Just me here, but if I hired a new coordinator and installed a QB's 3rd offense in 4 years, I would make it less complicated, not because of the talent of the QB but because it is the intelligent thing to do.
It worked to the tune of coach of the year.
Everyone here gets far too much wrong to be talking like experts.
When anyone speaks with CERTAINTY like they KNOW, what Daboll or Schoen think or thought, you can only be certain of ONE THING.
That you are listening to an idiot.
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Exactly regarding the remedial offense.
So why did Daboll go along with this?
Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse?
They ran a remedial offense because the offensive line was so poor. You guys act like a simple offense is bad. It can be very good. You do not need to do a lot well. It is much better to a few things well then try to do a bunch of things mediocre.
Just me here, but if I hired a new coordinator and installed a QB's 3rd offense in 4 years, I would make it less complicated, not because of the talent of the QB but because it is the intelligent thing to do.
It worked to the tune of coach of the year.
Everyone here gets far too much wrong to be talking like experts.
When anyone speaks with CERTAINTY like they KNOW, what Daboll or Schoen think or thought, you can only be certain of ONE THING.
That you are listening to an idiot.
Nobody runs an entirely remedial offense because of the OL. Never happened in the history of the NFL. You design the offense first and foremost around the QB. And of course you make provisions when the OL fails. The 2022 gameplan was scaled back from the jump. At no point did the Giants show a willingness to play vertical football. This shouldn't be a surprise. They have been scaling back the offense since the beginning, and Jones has pretty much only played in different flavors of remedial offense since he joined the Giants.
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In comment 16305337 Eric from BBI said:
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Exactly regarding the remedial offense.
So why did Daboll go along with this?
Was he fooled that he could turn Jones into something more? Or was the decision out of his hands? What answer is worse?
They ran a remedial offense because the offensive line was so poor. You guys act like a simple offense is bad. It can be very good. You do not need to do a lot well. It is much better to a few things well then try to do a bunch of things mediocre.
Just me here, but if I hired a new coordinator and installed a QB's 3rd offense in 4 years, I would make it less complicated, not because of the talent of the QB but because it is the intelligent thing to do.
It worked to the tune of coach of the year.
Everyone here gets far too much wrong to be talking like experts.
When anyone speaks with CERTAINTY like they KNOW, what Daboll or Schoen think or thought, you can only be certain of ONE THING.
That you are listening to an idiot.
Nobody runs an entirely remedial offense because of the OL. Never happened in the history of the NFL. You design the offense first and foremost around the QB. And of course you make provisions when the OL fails. The 2022 gameplan was scaled back from the jump. At no point did the Giants show a willingness to play vertical football. This shouldn't be a surprise. They have been scaling back the offense since the beginning, and Jones has pretty much only played in different flavors of remedial offense since he joined the Giants.
Only an idiot would install a downfield game-plan with an OL that can't block long enough for it to succeed.
I expect that the people in charge of the team make decisions because they want to win.
So why did Schoen and Daboll resign Jones?
I see much WILD speculation about these reasons. To be very specific, that is the stupidity.
It is where I bristle.
When we argue this down, we get to the stupid place many people reside.
Schoen and Daboll did not do what many people thought they would do regarding Jones.
Once that happened, either Daboll or Schoen were coerced or they are bad because they did not agree with the negative take on Jones. When people explain away last year due to schedule, that is not an excuses but fact. When injuries and schedule are used to explain away the beginning of this year, people are mocked for making excuses.
It is intellectually dishonest.
Now I am hearing we can't trust Schoen but we can trust Daboll. Why? because he can't control his temper on the sidelines, I wonder what happens without cameras? The inability to regulate his emotions makes it appear he cares more than other. Must be true.
Unbunch the knickers, should be a fun off season.
I want Daniels and we should move up if we have to. I liked Jones, don't love him.
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when Hodgins/Slayton/James became the starting WRs and Gates/Bredseon came back and solidified LG, the offense opened up and they started passing a lot more.
here are the exact numbers of run vs pass from last year, which i've posted about before in more depth if you search.
in the Minnesota playoff game they passed exactly 56% i think. in the Philly game last year Jones was pressured 46% of the drop backs and got sacked 5x.
this year they added a bunch of weapons, presumably expecting the passing game trend to accelerate and continue expanding -- except they let 2 offensive line starters from what wasnt even a good line to begin with go, benched their most experienced guard 1 week into the season, and lost Thomas on the first drive of the year. and to put it mildly, Neal didnt take "the leap".
jones ended up getting pressured more than any QB they measured, on track to end up +100 pressures over the next closest player since PFF began tracking with the highest quick pressure rate to boot, and essentially every game turned into the philly game.
it hasn't just been jones either - devito has thomas/barkley/jms back plus pugh, and he just set a record for sacks in 3 games. tyrod barely made it through the miami game and was in the hospital on IR literally 2 weeks later.
if you cant see that the OL was a major fundamental flaw in this roster construction I dont know what to tell you. jones didnt play well but nobody would have, especially without barkley. i thought tyrod played as well as he could possibly play, with barkley doing a lot of heavy lifting, and he still only averaged 11.5 ppg in his 2 full games, and that was with a bunch of turnovers. carl banks has said it, no qb was thriving behind this ol. schoen didnt do a good enough job owning that in his remarks yesterday.
The aim is to improve the OL for a QB who is much better than Jones.
Fields and Jones have a similar game, Daboll is good at developing QB's and maybe he gets something out of Fields. His contract lines up where he'd be on a rookie deal in 2024 and potentially the 5th year option in 2025.
He would be aligned with Jones in that Schoen could pick up his option in 2025 while Jones is completely off the books in 2026. This assumes Jones is released after next season. The Giants would then decide what to do with Fields in 2026 or have no QB obligations then.
Financially it's not a bad strategy to keep all draft assets and build while you manage the mistake the Jones contract was. A way to do this is bring in a highly talented QB who's been stuck with a poor offensive staff.
Schoen could draft a QB, but the Giants are playing themselves out of Williams/Maye and probably Daniels. Everyone else is going to be a polarizing prospect with flaws most likely.
I think Fields is not a bad play. Trade a 3rd for him. He can compete with Jones & DeVito and probably win the job.
As an aside, couldn't you also see the Eagles bringing in Fields? That's a franchise that is always bringing in QBs.
1. Those with a franchise QB (Mahomes, etc.)
2. Those with a drafted QB who is no later than his second season, who they hope becomes a category 1 guy. The only guy in the league I'd say looks like ascending to category 1 is Brock Purdy.
3. Everybody else.
The Giants are in group 3. Trading for Fields doesn't get them out of group 3.
We need to be drafting QBs, and we need to be cheap at all 3 spots until we get someone we can confidently say is group 1. That's how you build and maintain pipelines for the rest of the roster while you search.
With Fields, like with Jones, we'd have to convince ourselves he'll become something he hasn't shown. We need to reverse that thinking. I want the Giants to draft QBs and find reasons to move on from them. The guys that stick will be those who, through their play, give the Giants no choice but to pay them.
Stay cheap and stay versatile. The Giants have never learned how to properly manipulate their roster since the rookie wage scale was introduced in 2011, and since the pass game rules changed.
The aim is to improve the OL for a QB who is much better than Jones.
wrong, this year his performance was appreciably worse.
you dropped into my (non-DJ) thread about coaches/qbs a couple weeks to post jones' 2023 EPA but disappeared when I noted how much his EPA this year was an outlier relative to his prior 4 seasons.
we can talk about safe gameplanning last year all we want, but here he is on last year's EPA leaderboard sitting at 7th best EPA per dropback, before accounting for the rushing.
make no mistake, jones performance was bad this year and as ive said numerous times (including in this thread) i expect them to draft a QB in round 1 because they need to hedge and the smartest way to do that is on a rookie scale deal with 5 years of control. but the OL was literally 'worst we've ever seen' bad so im inclined to believe that was the biggest trigger on outlier results. if jones comes back healthy i think the odds would be on him to beat out a rookie since its likely not going to be one of the top 2.
you know whose thinking that isn't? everyone in the giants org whose job is on the line next year. id imagine they are all very unlikely to sacrifice 10% of their cap and a qb they like to at least some extent for whoever takes their job(s) in 2025.
1. Cut Jones (I'm going to assume that's possible despite his injury but I don't know if it is)
2. Leave this draft with two of the following QBs (1 from each group): (Group 1)Daniels/Maye/Nix/Penix; (Group 2)Beck/Pratt/Ward/Hartman... This list will certainly change between now and April
What I think the Giants will do:
1. Sign a vet (Tannehill, Brissett, etc.)to start the season as Jones recovers
2. Possibly draft one of the Group 2-type QBs if the opportunity arises
3. Give the starting job back to Jones at some point next season
1. Cut Jones (I'm going to assume that's possible despite his injury but I don't know if it is)
2. Leave this draft with two of the following QBs (1 from each group): (Group 1)Daniels/Maye/Nix/Penix; (Group 2)Beck/Pratt/Ward/Hartman... This list will certainly change between now and April
What I think the Giants will do:
1. Sign a vet (Tannehill, Brissett, etc.)to start the season as Jones recovers
2. Possibly draft one of the Group 2-type QBs if the opportunity arises
3. Give the starting job back to Jones at some point next season
How does this strategy help Schoen though? We've seen some intense fan outrage (Eli benching, end of Judge), but this level of negligence would be like nothing we've ever seen. The 2024 season would be very uncomfortable and I think there is a good chance they'd all be fired after the season.
it's per dropback so it certainly shouldnt include designed running plays which likely made up the majority of jones' yardage last year.
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What I would do:
1. Cut Jones (I'm going to assume that's possible despite his injury but I don't know if it is)
2. Leave this draft with two of the following QBs (1 from each group): (Group 1)Daniels/Maye/Nix/Penix; (Group 2)Beck/Pratt/Ward/Hartman... This list will certainly change between now and April
What I think the Giants will do:
1. Sign a vet (Tannehill, Brissett, etc.)to start the season as Jones recovers
2. Possibly draft one of the Group 2-type QBs if the opportunity arises
3. Give the starting job back to Jones at some point next season
How does this strategy help Schoen though? We've seen some intense fan outrage (Eli benching, end of Judge), but this level of negligence would be like nothing we've ever seen. The 2024 season would be very uncomfortable and I think there is a good chance they'd all be fired after the season.
Help me understand this...I keep seeing this brought up, but why cut Jones? Why not draft a Rookie and keep Jones. He'll probably start the year on pup and the rookie, or a vet starts the year. If you cut him, you take a huge hit. Why would you elect to take that hit, when you can cut him the following year and have no cap hit. That decision just seems like it would be out of spite and no logic.
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What I would do:
1. Cut Jones (I'm going to assume that's possible despite his injury but I don't know if it is)
2. Leave this draft with two of the following QBs (1 from each group): (Group 1)Daniels/Maye/Nix/Penix; (Group 2)Beck/Pratt/Ward/Hartman... This list will certainly change between now and April
What I think the Giants will do:
1. Sign a vet (Tannehill, Brissett, etc.)to start the season as Jones recovers
2. Possibly draft one of the Group 2-type QBs if the opportunity arises
3. Give the starting job back to Jones at some point next season
How does this strategy help Schoen though? We've seen some intense fan outrage (Eli benching, end of Judge), but this level of negligence would be like nothing we've ever seen. The 2024 season would be very uncomfortable and I think there is a good chance they'd all be fired after the season.
it doesn't.
remember this - many of this years QBs are 6th year CFB players. penix and bo nix are going to be 24 year old rookies, so just 3 years younger than Jones except lacking the 2+ years with Daboll in system.
i think nix more than penix is in the group of the most likely players they may draft, so im not saying age vetoes them - the point is jones won games for them and they signed him for extra years over the tag because they like him. there is very little reason to take the penalty of dumping him early bc of 4 bad games. they need to give themselves a quality option under control beyond next year and the best way to do that is 5 years of control on higher grade prospect than devito and then seeing how things play out on the field.
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In comment 16306429 Go Terps said:
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What I would do:
1. Cut Jones (I'm going to assume that's possible despite his injury but I don't know if it is)
2. Leave this draft with two of the following QBs (1 from each group): (Group 1)Daniels/Maye/Nix/Penix; (Group 2)Beck/Pratt/Ward/Hartman... This list will certainly change between now and April
What I think the Giants will do:
1. Sign a vet (Tannehill, Brissett, etc.)to start the season as Jones recovers
2. Possibly draft one of the Group 2-type QBs if the opportunity arises
3. Give the starting job back to Jones at some point next season
How does this strategy help Schoen though? We've seen some intense fan outrage (Eli benching, end of Judge), but this level of negligence would be like nothing we've ever seen. The 2024 season would be very uncomfortable and I think there is a good chance they'd all be fired after the season.
Help me understand this...I keep seeing this brought up, but why cut Jones? Why not draft a Rookie and keep Jones. He'll probably start the year on pup and the rookie, or a vet starts the year. If you cut him, you take a huge hit. Why would you elect to take that hit, when you can cut him the following year and have no cap hit. That decision just seems like it would be out of spite and no logic.
bbi's 2023 credo.
I think for the Giants (and Jones) it would be better to move on. Kerry Collins asked for his release when the Giants drafted Manning.
I think for the Giants (and Jones) it would be better to move on. Kerry Collins asked for his release when the Giants drafted Manning.
The rest of the league does it all the time. Hurtz was drafted when they had QB's on the roster that had far more accomplishments than Jones.
Plenty wanted to stick with Collins and draft offensive line then too. Paul Schwartz has an infamous headline saying Go Get Gallery from 04.
And then Collins was released and the Giants signed Warner.
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and he had been to a SB with the team.
Plenty wanted to stick with Collins and draft offensive line then too. Paul Schwartz has an infamous headline saying Go Get Gallery from 04.
You guys are both missing the point of me saying that. It was one of two examples in which a team drafted the air apparent. If you don't like the Giants example, look at the Eagles or countless other teams. Alex Smith had been to the playoffs multiple times when they drafted Mahones.
The quarterback roster scenarios aren't particularly complicated. DeVito is an ERFA and presumably a lock at < 1M next year. If he shows he can keep the lights on, he has a place next year.
Taylor isn't going to command 5M AAV in his next go. He'll be any easy player to retain.
So the Giants either PUP Jones and run it back exactly as it is, or they PUP Jones and replace Taylor or DeVito with a rookie.
if you are the fan of EPA you say you are, yes. yards per attempt is a dramatically overrated stat that says as much about the receivers as it does the QB (see Tua's y/a pre-Hill). receiving yards per game by receivers are one of the most stable predictive stats every year, so if you dont have those players you arent going to throw for the most yards per attempt.
total QBR (which does include rushing) was pretty close to EPA. they had him as 13th best passing and 4th best running.
none of these statistics matter nearly as much as whatever the internal analysis was, and that's the result that spoke loudest. they gave him a very aggressive contract when they could have tagged him just as easily as they declined the 5yo the year before.
JOrthman - I'm not saying not to draft a QB high, I'm just saying it'll be an awkward situation for Jones and the team.