There are still three more significant steps before reaching Acceptance. Otherwise known as reality.
It is sad that people on this site continue to believe that DJ is anything more than an above average backup level NFL quarterback talent. This was unequivocally self-evident before he was drafted, as Sy expertly warned us. But it is not unexpected. We are fans after all and some are more delusional than others in their love for this team. But at this point, anyone who thinks the players in that locker room still believe in Daniel Jones is out of their mind.
It will be utterly catastrophic, however, if Schoen and Mara are still in Denial. And Schoen's presser gave absolutely no comfort to anyone that they are anywhere close to Acceptance on this matter. This is scary stuff for those of us who are pining for the organization to get back to guiding the team to winning championships rather than defending moronic decisions with even worse decision.
-Daniel Jones: 21/27 – 217 yards / 0 TD – 0 INT / 100.2 RAT
Jones also added 41 rushing yards (not including the three kneel downs) just days after nobody knew if he would miss the game because of an ankle injury suffered last week. Mid-week, we were wondering if NYG would sign Brian Lewerke or Jake Fromm to backup Davis Webb. Now we look back and I think this was Jones’ top performance of the season considering the circumstances. We may see better statistical games from him, but he made multiple big time throws, took some of the biggest hits we have seen this year, and still made a huge difference on the ground. Prior to this game, I wrote down a list of things to look for. At the top? “How does Jones impact the game on a bad wheel?” Athletic quarterbacks are all the craze in the League now, everyone wants one. But what happens when they are nicked up? What happens when they age and lose some of their movement capability? Jones rose to the occasion and what he did post-Barkley injury on the touchdown scoring drive cannot go overlooked. 6/7 – 56 yards including two 3rd-down conversions and 25 yards rushing. What he did with what he had is exactly what good quarterbacks do: create more than the sum of parts. Big-time performance for Jones.
All these "great" games extrapolate into sub 200 yards passing per game and 12.75 passing TD's over 17 games....
Why are we magnetized to mediocrity?
Tommy DeVito's recent three game stretch projects to 34 passing TD's over 17 games... That's almost TRIPLE the TD production of those Jones games shared by Ryan.
OMG with this take... lol. Sometimes I think I'm taking crazy pills when I read this site. How did Mr. Devito look against Dallas?
"But but but Devito just beat 2 teams as bad as we are! And scored 24 points vs WFT that just traded away their 2 best defensive lineman! He must be the bestest NY Giants QB!! The stats say so!"
LOL
I think some people are in for a rude awakening on Mr. DeVito, and I LIKE him. He's a Giant, I root for the Giants players to be great and the Giants to win... ALWAYS. He is not the long term answer here at QB, except maybe as a backup. My opinion. I'd be happy to be very wrong.
THE reason we have Jones. Gettleman was absolutely going to draft Herbert that year, he personally saw a bunch of his games. But then, he went back to school for his senior year, and DG (having promised Mara he would draft Eli's successor), stupidly pivoted to Jones off an exhibition game viewing.
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
THE reason we have Jones. Gettleman was absolutely going to draft Herbert that year, he personally saw a bunch of his games. But then, he went back to school for his senior year, and DG (having promised Mara he would draft Eli's successor), stupidly pivoted to Jones off an exhibition game viewing.
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
These comparisons are always silly... I would love to have Herbert, but San Diego ain't exactly setting the world on fire right now. And that is a WAY better offensive roster than the NY Giants. We might be marginally better overall with Herbert at the helm, BUT AGAIN, this team IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. We don't beat Philly or Dallas just because we add Herbert. This team is just not good enough (yet). Herbert would be hurt as well if he started the year with the Giants.... assuming Thomas still gets hurt in the 1st game.
-Daniel Jones: 21/27 – 217 yards / 0 TD – 0 INT / 100.2 RAT
Jones also added 41 rushing yards (not including the three kneel downs) just days after nobody knew if he would miss the game because of an ankle injury suffered last week. Mid-week, we were wondering if NYG would sign Brian Lewerke or Jake Fromm to backup Davis Webb. Now we look back and I think this was Jones’ top performance of the season considering the circumstances. We may see better statistical games from him, but he made multiple big time throws, took some of the biggest hits we have seen this year, and still made a huge difference on the ground. Prior to this game, I wrote down a list of things to look for. At the top? “How does Jones impact the game on a bad wheel?” Athletic quarterbacks are all the craze in the League now, everyone wants one. But what happens when they are nicked up? What happens when they age and lose some of their movement capability? Jones rose to the occasion and what he did post-Barkley injury on the touchdown scoring drive cannot go overlooked. 6/7 – 56 yards including two 3rd-down conversions and 25 yards rushing. What he did with what he had is exactly what good quarterbacks do: create more than the sum of parts. Big-time performance for Jones.
All these "great" games extrapolate into sub 200 yards passing per game and 12.75 passing TD's over 17 games....
Why are we magnetized to mediocrity?
Tommy DeVito's recent three game stretch projects to 34 passing TD's over 17 games... That's almost TRIPLE the TD production of those Jones games shared by Ryan.
OMG with this take... lol. Sometimes I think I'm taking crazy pills when I read this site. How did Mr. Devito look against Dallas?
"But but but Devito just beat 2 teams as bad as we are! And scored 24 points vs WFT that just traded away their 2 best defensive lineman! He must be the bestest NY Giants QB!! The stats say so!"
LOL
I think some people are in for a rude awakening on Mr. DeVito, and I LIKE him. He's a Giant, I root for the Giants players to be great and the Giants to win... ALWAYS. He is not the long term answer here at QB, except maybe as a backup. My opinion. I'd be happy to be very wrong.
Do you spend as much time critiquing the opponent when you're defending DJ?
Do you look at the Minnesota playoff victory and acknowledge that despite their record, they had a negative point differential and an expected W/L below .500? Do you look at the Colts game from last year and consider that they were playing out the string with an off-the-couch interim HC at the helm?
Or does the opponent only matter when we need to make sure that DeVito's performance doesn't accidentally reflect poorly on DJ?
THE reason we have Jones. Gettleman was absolutely going to draft Herbert that year, he personally saw a bunch of his games. But then, he went back to school for his senior year, and DG (having promised Mara he would draft Eli's successor), stupidly pivoted to Jones off an exhibition game viewing.
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
THE reason we have Jones. Gettleman was absolutely going to draft Herbert that year, he personally saw a bunch of his games. But then, he went back to school for his senior year, and DG (having promised Mara he would draft Eli's successor), stupidly pivoted to Jones off an exhibition game viewing.
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
These comparisons are always silly... I would love to have Herbert, but San Diego ain't exactly setting the world on fire right now. And that is a WAY better offensive roster than the NY Giants. We might be marginally better overall with Herbert at the helm, BUT AGAIN, this team IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. We don't beat Philly or Dallas just because we add Herbert. This team is just not good enough (yet). Herbert would be hurt as well if he started the year with the Giants.... assuming Thomas still gets hurt in the 1st game.
What about the Chargers' offensive roster is better than the Giants' offensive roster right now besides the QB and one WR (Keenan Allen)? Their best offensive weapon is Ekeler, is he materially better than Barkley? Their best lineman is Slater, is he materially better than Thomas?
And the part that I feel gets ignored is how much impact the QB has on anyone's perception of his supporting cast. None of the Chargers' offensive weapons have ever played with a bad QB, so we can't necessarily determine how much their play is elevated by Herbert (and Rivers before him) vs. how much their play elevates their QB.
I'm reminded of how many players looked good playing with Eli only to go on to do nothing anywhere else in the league. How can you be certain that the Chargers' WAY better offensive roster isn't just a collection of Reuben Randle-esque players who are being buoyed by a superior QB?
I don't think you can (nor do I think that I can say with any certainty that the inverse is true).
Do you spend as much time critiquing the opponent when you're defending DJ?
Do you look at the Minnesota playoff victory and acknowledge that despite their record, they had a negative point differential and an expected W/L below .500? Do you look at the Colts game from last year and consider that they were playing out the string with an off-the-couch interim HC at the helm?
Or does the opponent only matter when we need to make sure that DeVito's performance doesn't accidentally reflect poorly on DJ?
I think you are missing my point. I look at the season as a whole last year, not just the playoff game. I saw a shitty team that I expected to win maybe 6-7 games actually win a playoff game. I knew we could not compete with Philly after that game, because our roster was not good enough. It's STILL not, and actually in some ways (OL) it's worse. A different QB doesn't change that. My point on DeVito is, it is 99.9% likely that he will only ever be a backup in this league. He's a great story, don't get me wrong. And I will love it if he turns out to be Tom Brady, believe me... lol. It's not going to happen. Did he do significantly better against WFT than DJ did before they traded their 2 best DL with a clear lame duck HC in place? I mean come on, you are a smart guy Dunk, I see it in the way you post. I just don't see how people are so focused on DJ as the root of all evil for this team. He's not. I don't see him as an elite QB by any means but I believe he is better than you and some others portray. He is a middle of the pack NFL starter IMV. And I fully believe that if Daboll plays the preseason differently and we make better roster decisions for the final 53 before that Dallas game, we are in a different place right now.
It is not a coincidence that many of the same people who would not move off of Dave Gettleman being a really good GM will not move off of Daniel Jones being a really good QB. After all, their idol fell in love with Jones, which must mean Jones is special.
Herbert's career record is 29-31. He lost the only playoff game he started. He has a ton of TD passes which is great.
I ask again - what has he done in his career that makes you think he's some stratospherically amazing QB?
Well
He began his career off with production we have never, ever seen before. So...
Sorry, Sy. Now QB talent is measured in team playoff wins. Jones has one more than Herbert, so Herbert is a disappointment.
Blake Bortles has two playoff wins and Jones one, so Bortles was a better QB than Jones.
Marino never won a Superbowl, so he has shown less for his career than did Nick Foles or Joe Flacco.
The contortions are spectacular!
You are being purposely obtuse here. I have not seen anyone say in any way shape or form the DJ is better than Herbert. I certainly never did. I don't think Ryan is saying that either (Maybe he is, I don't know). My point in responding to that Herbert post above is that of course he is better than DJ... only a fool would think otherwise. But that's not the question. They have the SAME number of wins right now as the Giants. Does anyone believe, the way this season progressed that we have more wins with Herbert behind center? I sure don't. This TEAM is not good enough. Especially on the OL. The OL has stabilized a bit sure, but it still sucks... and was epically bad after AT went down. And I blame a lot of that on what was done by coaching and FO before the season started.
You didn't say that. Another poster most certainly did.
I don't understand this idea of "why have a better QB if your team sucks anyway." Then why did we sign Jones to a $160M contract instead of letting him walk and drafting literally anyone else last year? As Devito is showing, literally anyone can win a few games with this team.
We spent a lot of money on a position many on this thread are arguing makes almost no difference. How was that not a terrible mistake by Schoen?
It's been a decade of horrible football, and I'm not sure I've been more depressed about the state of things than I am now. If the people in the building are saying the same positive things about Jones that we're reading from many on this board, what reason is there to trust their judgment?
Another year of Jones excuses and rationalizations is such an awful thought.
You didn't say that. Another poster most certainly did.
I don't understand this idea of "why have a better QB if your team sucks anyway." Then why did we sign Jones to a $160M contract instead of letting him walk and drafting literally anyone else last year? As Devito is showing, literally anyone can win a few games with this team.
We spent a lot of money on a position many on this thread are arguing makes almost no difference. How was that not a terrible mistake by Schoen?
DJ had just led a team that most people had as a bottom feeder in 2022 (rightfully so) to a playoff win. A team with a bottom of the league roster. The choice was either to franchise him or sign him. What were the options to sign in his stead? Sign Aaron Rodgers? Watson? That deal is not killing this team. What killed this team is is in no small part playing the starters together for 5 minutes out of 180 in the preseason. The decisions on the OL were disastrous.... keeping Lemieux and Peart. Not only keeping Peart, but then putting Ezeudu in his place after AT goes down (WTF??). Getting rid of Phillips and Feliciano. This team is broken, a QB does not magically fix this season, it just doesn't. I 100% feel that if we were more prepared to start the season overall and AT doesn't get hurt we are 100% in a better place right now, and fully in the playoff hunt. It's not such a wild take. DJ regressed instead of progressed because of the OL play in the first few games, my opinion. All of that said, if they have conviction on a guy when we pick it will be a criminal act if they don't take him. I don't see DJ here after 2024, but I guess it all depends on who is there when we select, and if Schoen/Daboll have actual conviction on them. I would guess if one of the top 3 are there when we pick, they take him regardless (as they probably should). Some people think DJ is better than you do, but so what? These constant raging arguments about just the QB areoff the rails. This team is (still) broken.
Shyster posted this in the Raanan thread. I have not seen these Mara quotes until today, this was after the Vikings win. The owner talking about their pending free agent:
Quote:
John Mara was stopped in the middle of this joyous Giants locker room and marveled at the way his franchise quarterback performed.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Now tell me, if you are Joe Schoen, what are you supposed to do? Your boss is publicly saying that Jones is a franchise QB. The negotiations didn't even begin, no wonder Jones held out for every penny.
Mara completely undercut Schoen. And I get most owners operate this way, but I find it incredibly idealistic to think Schoen was going to just let Jones walk and roll with Tyrod Taylor when his boss is saying that on the record.
I've gone back and fourth on Schoen, but I think he made the most of the shitty situation he was in. This team wasn't even supposed to be good last year. And I fully assume the same applied to Barkley. Link - ( New Window )
Shyster posted this in the Raanan thread. I have not seen these Mara quotes until today, this was after the Vikings win. The owner talking about their pending free agent:
Quote:
John Mara was stopped in the middle of this joyous Giants locker room and marveled at the way his franchise quarterback performed.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Now tell me, if you are Joe Schoen, what are you supposed to do? Your boss is publicly saying that Jones is a franchise QB. The negotiations didn't even begin, no wonder Jones held out for every penny.
Mara completely undercut Schoen. And I get most owners operate this way, but I find it incredibly idealistic to think Schoen was going to just let Jones walk and roll with Tyrod Taylor when his boss is saying that on the record.
I've gone back and fourth on Schoen, but I think he made the most of the shitty situation he was in. This team wasn't even supposed to be good last year. And I fully assume the same applied to Barkley. Link - ( New Window )
What was he supposed to do, you ask? Franchise tag. Period. Full stop. And crystal clear as day at the time. He tried to be cute with the DJ/Barkley strategy and it blew up in his face.
That is Schoen's fault. Mara will be Mara. But we were hoping that Schoen would save the owner from himself. Apparently he can't. He needs to pivot quickly now or end up in the dustbin with the rest of the sycophants...
He valued the QB over the RB. Opted for the tag for Barkley. If Jones was going to be back, he knew he needed Barkley as well.
The multi-year deal should have been given to the top five talent in the league at running back, ala the Jonathan Taylor contract, not the backup level talent at quarterback. A gargantuan error in judgement only surpassed by the gargantuan difference in committed dollars and cap space malfeasance.
Schoen screwed it up as badly as a GM could possibly screw this up....
I don't see him as an elite QB by any means but I believe he is better than you and some others portray. He is a middle of the pack NFL starter IMV.
IMO, the worst possible place you can be with your QB is middle of the pack. Even that fucking idiot Gettleman recognized that as "QB Hell."
Being middle of the pack at QB means you need everything else around that QB to be close to perfect in order to actually be a championship contender because you derive no advantage from the most important position. And it means that you are unlikely to bottom out severely enough to have a chance to upgrade your QB without a massive spend in resources (generally, draft capital that you need to either stock or reload the rest of your roster pipeline at all times).
And the teams that do manage to succeed with a middle of the pack QB always find that success to be short-lived. Build yourself a historically great defense and throw Trent Dilfer behind center and you win one Super Bowl and immediately look to upgrade the QB anyway - and let's not pretend that building that historically great defense is somehow easier than finding an elite QB. Get yourself that elite QB, and your championship window is probably close to a decade long, and you'll have the luxury of that QB covering up a lot of sins along the way (look at the Colts' roster that Peyton Manning was carrying and what came of it when he got hurt, or Brady's Patriots and how they've done since he left).
I have no interest in middle of the pack. If I can't have a better QB than middle of the pack, I'd rather have a worse one. I just don't want to be in the middle. It's the NFL version of sitting bitch in the backseat of your parents' station wagon.
I don't disagree with what you are saying there, but there are a couple of things I think I disagree with you on, or at least maybe we are just talking past each other on.
1) This roster is not close to good enough in my eyes. Regardless of who is behind center, we are not competing with Philly and Dallas with the current construction of this roster. Especially the OL. I want to do what SF did so we can be competitive no matter who is taking the snaps.
2) It's pretty clear I think DJ is better than you do, which is of course normal for a fan base. Everyone will have different perceptions of players, some higher than others. This roster has been bottom of the league since he has been drafted. What does he look like if we built this team the way San Fran did and he's behind center?
We have all seen that there are no guarantees with a highly drafted QB, so I don't think Schoen was crazy for choosing what he did with the DJ deal. It's easy to look back and say franchising was obvious, but it wasn't. DJ played well enough to take a shit roster to a playoff game, and he looked pretty good doing it, until we played a team that we STILL cannot compete with (Philly). And I put that blowout way more on the matchup of our OL vs the Philly front 7, much more than on DJ at least on offense. And I put the beginning of this year woes (and regression, really) on lack of preparation in preseason, some questionable roster moves, and losing the only really good offensive lineman we have in the first drive of the first game. It was all downhill after that, especially then losing Saquon, and then JMS.
1. Schoen would value Williams and Maye the most
2. Likely won’t mortgage a shitload of draft capital for them, but perhaps something like one of the 2nd rounders and a 2025 1st could be the ticket for NYG
3. Other QBs - would likely take a chance on someone in round 2 or round 3. Someone like McCarthy or Ewers
4. Would likely take BPA if Giants end up between 6-9 and that very well might be Edge or WR
5. Schoen ultimately may value “non QB” BPA at every pick if they can’t land Williams or Maye
6. Adding pro bowl talent with 2-3 picks and seeing if Jones can turn it around is a fine strategy if you can’t get the top QB prizes
7. Schoen and Daboll will not be fired if Jones is the QB next year and doesn’t turn it around
7. Schoen and Daboll will not be fired if Jones is the QB next year and doesn’t turn it around
If Joe & Dabs are dumb enough to hitch their ride to DJ going forward, neither of them are long for this organization provided winning is something that still matters. It might not to John, just as long as he can Jones is the first one in the building, calls John 'Mr. Mara', & do whatever else he does that casts a spell on that clown of an owner.
He had a good college career. Didn't throw many interceptions at all. Played in the big ten and was ranked 2nd best qb behind Stroud.
Devito has given fans a reason to watch the games. Given his head coach a guy who looks downfield first instead of looking at the chains first. Given his teammates some energy and spirit.
Time will tell what level of play Devito will ultimately achieve but I enjoy watching him play and I feel a sense of hope when he plays.
7. Schoen and Daboll will not be fired if Jones is the QB next year and doesn’t turn it around
If Joe & Dabs are dumb enough to hitch their ride to DJ going forward, neither of them are long for this organization provided winning is something that still matters. It might not to John, just as long as he can Jones is the first one in the building, calls John 'Mr. Mara', & do whatever else he does that casts a spell on that clown of an owner.
Forcing a QB pick at the top of the draft just because they fear they will be fired is about a triple worse outcome instead of taking BPA.
Passing on Jayden Daniels would be difficult to accept
The production is extraordinary on an ok LSU team. And if you watch his highlights you'll see him making big time throws, outrunning angles against SEC defenders, and protecting himself well enough that he has a clean jersey with 200 yards rushing.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
Not saying they should force a pick, but they need to get someone-be it the draft, FA, or hell even DeVito-who can play better than Jones, which-after this season-isn't that high of a bar. Hell, even DeVito-an undrafted UFA-has looked better than the guy who got the $140 dollar deal, a contract that looks worse & worse with every passing second.
He’s in another universe talent wise from Jones. The real stand out trait btw is his passing accuracy. Some absolute dimes, including long throws in every game I’ve watched.
If Schoen and the scouts support vote yes on Daniels , I support Trading away whatever it takes to get him on the team. If.
If he translates to the NFL, he’s a franchise changing player.
RE: Passing on Jayden Daniels would be difficult to accept
The production is extraordinary on an ok LSU team. And if you watch his highlights you'll see him making big time throws, outrunning angles against SEC defenders, and protecting himself well enough that he has a clean jersey with 200 yards rushing.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
This is hilarious.
So I ask again, if Herbert is this amazing QB, why does he have more losses than wins?
And why does Jones not get the same benefit of the doubt in having bad coaching/bad teams?
This has reached a level of ridiculous that seemingly has no bounds.
Justin Herbert is better/is more talented than Daniel Jones.
What I'm saying is - Herbert hasn't proven shit in the NFL yet.
This has to be parody.
Maybe say less but be more compelling. Think quality over quantity with your posting.
I guess I should’ve known.
With a bum hand the last three weeks Herbert has tripled Jones 2023 touchdown output. Again; what has Jones shown more than Herbert?
With a bum hand the last three weeks Herbert has tripled Jones 2023 touchdown output. Again; what has Jones shown more than Herbert?
Herbert also has a defensive head coach who looks to be in over his head and multiple OC's.
Quote:
Thrown for more yards, touchdowns, for a higher completion percentage, all while being in the league for one less year.
With a bum hand the last three weeks Herbert has tripled Jones 2023 touchdown output. Again; what has Jones shown more than Herbert?
Herbert also has a defensive head coach who looks to be in over his head and multiple OC's.
If Daboll can get 7 tds out of DeVito, what would he get out of Herbert? 50? 60?
With a bum hand the last three weeks Herbert has tripled Jones 2023 touchdown output. Again; what has Jones shown more than Herbert?
But ‘he hasn’t proven shit in the NFL yet.’
It is sad that people on this site continue to believe that DJ is anything more than an above average backup level NFL quarterback talent. This was unequivocally self-evident before he was drafted, as Sy expertly warned us. But it is not unexpected. We are fans after all and some are more delusional than others in their love for this team. But at this point, anyone who thinks the players in that locker room still believe in Daniel Jones is out of their mind.
It will be utterly catastrophic, however, if Schoen and Mara are still in Denial. And Schoen's presser gave absolutely no comfort to anyone that they are anywhere close to Acceptance on this matter. This is scary stuff for those of us who are pining for the organization to get back to guiding the team to winning championships rather than defending moronic decisions with even worse decision.
I guess I should’ve known.
Yep, it's always the same stupid reason... lol
Quote:
Sy's review of Jones in London last year:
-Daniel Jones: 21/27 – 217 yards / 0 TD – 0 INT / 100.2 RAT
Jones also added 41 rushing yards (not including the three kneel downs) just days after nobody knew if he would miss the game because of an ankle injury suffered last week. Mid-week, we were wondering if NYG would sign Brian Lewerke or Jake Fromm to backup Davis Webb. Now we look back and I think this was Jones’ top performance of the season considering the circumstances. We may see better statistical games from him, but he made multiple big time throws, took some of the biggest hits we have seen this year, and still made a huge difference on the ground. Prior to this game, I wrote down a list of things to look for. At the top? “How does Jones impact the game on a bad wheel?” Athletic quarterbacks are all the craze in the League now, everyone wants one. But what happens when they are nicked up? What happens when they age and lose some of their movement capability? Jones rose to the occasion and what he did post-Barkley injury on the touchdown scoring drive cannot go overlooked. 6/7 – 56 yards including two 3rd-down conversions and 25 yards rushing. What he did with what he had is exactly what good quarterbacks do: create more than the sum of parts. Big-time performance for Jones.
All these "great" games extrapolate into sub 200 yards passing per game and 12.75 passing TD's over 17 games....
Why are we magnetized to mediocrity?
Tommy DeVito's recent three game stretch projects to 34 passing TD's over 17 games... That's almost TRIPLE the TD production of those Jones games shared by Ryan.
OMG with this take... lol. Sometimes I think I'm taking crazy pills when I read this site. How did Mr. Devito look against Dallas?
"But but but Devito just beat 2 teams as bad as we are! And scored 24 points vs WFT that just traded away their 2 best defensive lineman! He must be the bestest NY Giants QB!! The stats say so!"
LOL
I think some people are in for a rude awakening on Mr. DeVito, and I LIKE him. He's a Giant, I root for the Giants players to be great and the Giants to win... ALWAYS. He is not the long term answer here at QB, except maybe as a backup. My opinion. I'd be happy to be very wrong.
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
These comparisons are always silly... I would love to have Herbert, but San Diego ain't exactly setting the world on fire right now. And that is a WAY better offensive roster than the NY Giants. We might be marginally better overall with Herbert at the helm, BUT AGAIN, this team IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. We don't beat Philly or Dallas just because we add Herbert. This team is just not good enough (yet). Herbert would be hurt as well if he started the year with the Giants.... assuming Thomas still gets hurt in the 1st game.
Quote:
In comment 16307211 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Sy's review of Jones in London last year:
-Daniel Jones: 21/27 – 217 yards / 0 TD – 0 INT / 100.2 RAT
Jones also added 41 rushing yards (not including the three kneel downs) just days after nobody knew if he would miss the game because of an ankle injury suffered last week. Mid-week, we were wondering if NYG would sign Brian Lewerke or Jake Fromm to backup Davis Webb. Now we look back and I think this was Jones’ top performance of the season considering the circumstances. We may see better statistical games from him, but he made multiple big time throws, took some of the biggest hits we have seen this year, and still made a huge difference on the ground. Prior to this game, I wrote down a list of things to look for. At the top? “How does Jones impact the game on a bad wheel?” Athletic quarterbacks are all the craze in the League now, everyone wants one. But what happens when they are nicked up? What happens when they age and lose some of their movement capability? Jones rose to the occasion and what he did post-Barkley injury on the touchdown scoring drive cannot go overlooked. 6/7 – 56 yards including two 3rd-down conversions and 25 yards rushing. What he did with what he had is exactly what good quarterbacks do: create more than the sum of parts. Big-time performance for Jones.
All these "great" games extrapolate into sub 200 yards passing per game and 12.75 passing TD's over 17 games....
Why are we magnetized to mediocrity?
Tommy DeVito's recent three game stretch projects to 34 passing TD's over 17 games... That's almost TRIPLE the TD production of those Jones games shared by Ryan.
OMG with this take... lol. Sometimes I think I'm taking crazy pills when I read this site. How did Mr. Devito look against Dallas?
"But but but Devito just beat 2 teams as bad as we are! And scored 24 points vs WFT that just traded away their 2 best defensive lineman! He must be the bestest NY Giants QB!! The stats say so!"
LOL
I think some people are in for a rude awakening on Mr. DeVito, and I LIKE him. He's a Giant, I root for the Giants players to be great and the Giants to win... ALWAYS. He is not the long term answer here at QB, except maybe as a backup. My opinion. I'd be happy to be very wrong.
Do you spend as much time critiquing the opponent when you're defending DJ?
Do you look at the Minnesota playoff victory and acknowledge that despite their record, they had a negative point differential and an expected W/L below .500? Do you look at the Colts game from last year and consider that they were playing out the string with an off-the-couch interim HC at the helm?
Or does the opponent only matter when we need to make sure that DeVito's performance doesn't accidentally reflect poorly on DJ?
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
DG sure did love him some Senior Bowl....
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THE reason we have Jones. Gettleman was absolutely going to draft Herbert that year, he personally saw a bunch of his games. But then, he went back to school for his senior year, and DG (having promised Mara he would draft Eli's successor), stupidly pivoted to Jones off an exhibition game viewing.
So this ALSO shows, who the organization thought was the better prospect. (and that's been proven in the pros).
These comparisons are always silly... I would love to have Herbert, but San Diego ain't exactly setting the world on fire right now. And that is a WAY better offensive roster than the NY Giants. We might be marginally better overall with Herbert at the helm, BUT AGAIN, this team IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. We don't beat Philly or Dallas just because we add Herbert. This team is just not good enough (yet). Herbert would be hurt as well if he started the year with the Giants.... assuming Thomas still gets hurt in the 1st game.
What about the Chargers' offensive roster is better than the Giants' offensive roster right now besides the QB and one WR (Keenan Allen)? Their best offensive weapon is Ekeler, is he materially better than Barkley? Their best lineman is Slater, is he materially better than Thomas?
And the part that I feel gets ignored is how much impact the QB has on anyone's perception of his supporting cast. None of the Chargers' offensive weapons have ever played with a bad QB, so we can't necessarily determine how much their play is elevated by Herbert (and Rivers before him) vs. how much their play elevates their QB.
I'm reminded of how many players looked good playing with Eli only to go on to do nothing anywhere else in the league. How can you be certain that the Chargers' WAY better offensive roster isn't just a collection of Reuben Randle-esque players who are being buoyed by a superior QB?
I don't think you can (nor do I think that I can say with any certainty that the inverse is true).
Do you spend as much time critiquing the opponent when you're defending DJ?
Do you look at the Minnesota playoff victory and acknowledge that despite their record, they had a negative point differential and an expected W/L below .500? Do you look at the Colts game from last year and consider that they were playing out the string with an off-the-couch interim HC at the helm?
Or does the opponent only matter when we need to make sure that DeVito's performance doesn't accidentally reflect poorly on DJ?
I think you are missing my point. I look at the season as a whole last year, not just the playoff game. I saw a shitty team that I expected to win maybe 6-7 games actually win a playoff game. I knew we could not compete with Philly after that game, because our roster was not good enough. It's STILL not, and actually in some ways (OL) it's worse. A different QB doesn't change that. My point on DeVito is, it is 99.9% likely that he will only ever be a backup in this league. He's a great story, don't get me wrong. And I will love it if he turns out to be Tom Brady, believe me... lol. It's not going to happen. Did he do significantly better against WFT than DJ did before they traded their 2 best DL with a clear lame duck HC in place? I mean come on, you are a smart guy Dunk, I see it in the way you post. I just don't see how people are so focused on DJ as the root of all evil for this team. He's not. I don't see him as an elite QB by any means but I believe he is better than you and some others portray. He is a middle of the pack NFL starter IMV. And I fully believe that if Daboll plays the preseason differently and we make better roster decisions for the final 53 before that Dallas game, we are in a different place right now.
This has to be parody.
It is not a coincidence that many of the same people who would not move off of Dave Gettleman being a really good GM will not move off of Daniel Jones being a really good QB. After all, their idol fell in love with Jones, which must mean Jones is special.
I ask again - what has he done in his career that makes you think he's some stratospherically amazing QB?
Well
He began his career off with production we have never, ever seen before. So...
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Herbert's career record is 29-31. He lost the only playoff game he started. He has a ton of TD passes which is great.
I ask again - what has he done in his career that makes you think he's some stratospherically amazing QB?
Well
He began his career off with production we have never, ever seen before. So...
Sorry, Sy. Now QB talent is measured in team playoff wins. Jones has one more than Herbert, so Herbert is a disappointment.
Blake Bortles has two playoff wins and Jones one, so Bortles was a better QB than Jones.
Marino never won a Superbowl, so he has shown less for his career than did Nick Foles or Joe Flacco.
The contortions are spectacular!
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In comment 16307481 ryanmkeane said:
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Herbert's career record is 29-31. He lost the only playoff game he started. He has a ton of TD passes which is great.
I ask again - what has he done in his career that makes you think he's some stratospherically amazing QB?
Well
He began his career off with production we have never, ever seen before. So...
Sorry, Sy. Now QB talent is measured in team playoff wins. Jones has one more than Herbert, so Herbert is a disappointment.
Blake Bortles has two playoff wins and Jones one, so Bortles was a better QB than Jones.
Marino never won a Superbowl, so he has shown less for his career than did Nick Foles or Joe Flacco.
The contortions are spectacular!
You are being purposely obtuse here. I have not seen anyone say in any way shape or form the DJ is better than Herbert. I certainly never did. I don't think Ryan is saying that either (Maybe he is, I don't know). My point in responding to that Herbert post above is that of course he is better than DJ... only a fool would think otherwise. But that's not the question. They have the SAME number of wins right now as the Giants. Does anyone believe, the way this season progressed that we have more wins with Herbert behind center? I sure don't. This TEAM is not good enough. Especially on the OL. The OL has stabilized a bit sure, but it still sucks... and was epically bad after AT went down. And I blame a lot of that on what was done by coaching and FO before the season started.
I don't understand this idea of "why have a better QB if your team sucks anyway." Then why did we sign Jones to a $160M contract instead of letting him walk and drafting literally anyone else last year? As Devito is showing, literally anyone can win a few games with this team.
We spent a lot of money on a position many on this thread are arguing makes almost no difference. How was that not a terrible mistake by Schoen?
Another year of Jones excuses and rationalizations is such an awful thought.
I don't understand this idea of "why have a better QB if your team sucks anyway." Then why did we sign Jones to a $160M contract instead of letting him walk and drafting literally anyone else last year? As Devito is showing, literally anyone can win a few games with this team.
We spent a lot of money on a position many on this thread are arguing makes almost no difference. How was that not a terrible mistake by Schoen?
DJ had just led a team that most people had as a bottom feeder in 2022 (rightfully so) to a playoff win. A team with a bottom of the league roster. The choice was either to franchise him or sign him. What were the options to sign in his stead? Sign Aaron Rodgers? Watson? That deal is not killing this team. What killed this team is is in no small part playing the starters together for 5 minutes out of 180 in the preseason. The decisions on the OL were disastrous.... keeping Lemieux and Peart. Not only keeping Peart, but then putting Ezeudu in his place after AT goes down (WTF??). Getting rid of Phillips and Feliciano. This team is broken, a QB does not magically fix this season, it just doesn't. I 100% feel that if we were more prepared to start the season overall and AT doesn't get hurt we are 100% in a better place right now, and fully in the playoff hunt. It's not such a wild take. DJ regressed instead of progressed because of the OL play in the first few games, my opinion. All of that said, if they have conviction on a guy when we pick it will be a criminal act if they don't take him. I don't see DJ here after 2024, but I guess it all depends on who is there when we select, and if Schoen/Daboll have actual conviction on them. I would guess if one of the top 3 are there when we pick, they take him regardless (as they probably should). Some people think DJ is better than you do, but so what? These constant raging arguments about just the QB areoff the rails. This team is (still) broken.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Now tell me, if you are Joe Schoen, what are you supposed to do? Your boss is publicly saying that Jones is a franchise QB. The negotiations didn't even begin, no wonder Jones held out for every penny.
Mara completely undercut Schoen. And I get most owners operate this way, but I find it incredibly idealistic to think Schoen was going to just let Jones walk and roll with Tyrod Taylor when his boss is saying that on the record.
I've gone back and fourth on Schoen, but I think he made the most of the shitty situation he was in. This team wasn't even supposed to be good last year. And I fully assume the same applied to Barkley.
Link - ( New Window )
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John Mara was stopped in the middle of this joyous Giants locker room and marveled at the way his franchise quarterback performed.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Now tell me, if you are Joe Schoen, what are you supposed to do? Your boss is publicly saying that Jones is a franchise QB. The negotiations didn't even begin, no wonder Jones held out for every penny.
Mara completely undercut Schoen. And I get most owners operate this way, but I find it incredibly idealistic to think Schoen was going to just let Jones walk and roll with Tyrod Taylor when his boss is saying that on the record.
I've gone back and fourth on Schoen, but I think he made the most of the shitty situation he was in. This team wasn't even supposed to be good last year. And I fully assume the same applied to Barkley. Link - ( New Window )
What was he supposed to do, you ask? Franchise tag. Period. Full stop. And crystal clear as day at the time. He tried to be cute with the DJ/Barkley strategy and it blew up in his face.
That is Schoen's fault. Mara will be Mara. But we were hoping that Schoen would save the owner from himself. Apparently he can't. He needs to pivot quickly now or end up in the dustbin with the rest of the sycophants...
If there is one thing I think most of us can agree on, it is that John Mara knows nothing about scouting football players.
The multi-year deal should have been given to the top five talent in the league at running back, ala the Jonathan Taylor contract, not the backup level talent at quarterback. A gargantuan error in judgement only surpassed by the gargantuan difference in committed dollars and cap space malfeasance.
Schoen screwed it up as badly as a GM could possibly screw this up....
IMO, the worst possible place you can be with your QB is middle of the pack. Even that fucking idiot Gettleman recognized that as "QB Hell."
Being middle of the pack at QB means you need everything else around that QB to be close to perfect in order to actually be a championship contender because you derive no advantage from the most important position. And it means that you are unlikely to bottom out severely enough to have a chance to upgrade your QB without a massive spend in resources (generally, draft capital that you need to either stock or reload the rest of your roster pipeline at all times).
And the teams that do manage to succeed with a middle of the pack QB always find that success to be short-lived. Build yourself a historically great defense and throw Trent Dilfer behind center and you win one Super Bowl and immediately look to upgrade the QB anyway - and let's not pretend that building that historically great defense is somehow easier than finding an elite QB. Get yourself that elite QB, and your championship window is probably close to a decade long, and you'll have the luxury of that QB covering up a lot of sins along the way (look at the Colts' roster that Peyton Manning was carrying and what came of it when he got hurt, or Brady's Patriots and how they've done since he left).
I have no interest in middle of the pack. If I can't have a better QB than middle of the pack, I'd rather have a worse one. I just don't want to be in the middle. It's the NFL version of sitting bitch in the backseat of your parents' station wagon.
1) This roster is not close to good enough in my eyes. Regardless of who is behind center, we are not competing with Philly and Dallas with the current construction of this roster. Especially the OL. I want to do what SF did so we can be competitive no matter who is taking the snaps.
2) It's pretty clear I think DJ is better than you do, which is of course normal for a fan base. Everyone will have different perceptions of players, some higher than others. This roster has been bottom of the league since he has been drafted. What does he look like if we built this team the way San Fran did and he's behind center?
We have all seen that there are no guarantees with a highly drafted QB, so I don't think Schoen was crazy for choosing what he did with the DJ deal. It's easy to look back and say franchising was obvious, but it wasn't. DJ played well enough to take a shit roster to a playoff game, and he looked pretty good doing it, until we played a team that we STILL cannot compete with (Philly). And I put that blowout way more on the matchup of our OL vs the Philly front 7, much more than on DJ at least on offense. And I put the beginning of this year woes (and regression, really) on lack of preparation in preseason, some questionable roster moves, and losing the only really good offensive lineman we have in the first drive of the first game. It was all downhill after that, especially then losing Saquon, and then JMS.
If there is one thing I think most of us can agree on, it is that John Mara knows nothing about scouting football players.
Good post Mike.
1. Schoen would value Williams and Maye the most
2. Likely won’t mortgage a shitload of draft capital for them, but perhaps something like one of the 2nd rounders and a 2025 1st could be the ticket for NYG
3. Other QBs - would likely take a chance on someone in round 2 or round 3. Someone like McCarthy or Ewers
4. Would likely take BPA if Giants end up between 6-9 and that very well might be Edge or WR
5. Schoen ultimately may value “non QB” BPA at every pick if they can’t land Williams or Maye
6. Adding pro bowl talent with 2-3 picks and seeing if Jones can turn it around is a fine strategy if you can’t get the top QB prizes
7. Schoen and Daboll will not be fired if Jones is the QB next year and doesn’t turn it around
1. Schoen would value Williams and Maye the most
You don't think Schoen will have Jayden Daniels in that same tier?
Or is it just that you hope he doesn't?
If Joe & Dabs are dumb enough to hitch their ride to DJ going forward, neither of them are long for this organization provided winning is something that still matters. It might not to John, just as long as he can Jones is the first one in the building, calls John 'Mr. Mara', & do whatever else he does that casts a spell on that clown of an owner.
Devito has given fans a reason to watch the games. Given his head coach a guy who looks downfield first instead of looking at the chains first. Given his teammates some energy and spirit.
Time will tell what level of play Devito will ultimately achieve but I enjoy watching him play and I feel a sense of hope when he plays.
At this point I will take that.
If Joe & Dabs are dumb enough to hitch their ride to DJ going forward, neither of them are long for this organization provided winning is something that still matters. It might not to John, just as long as he can Jones is the first one in the building, calls John 'Mr. Mara', & do whatever else he does that casts a spell on that clown of an owner.
Forcing a QB pick at the top of the draft just because they fear they will be fired is about a triple worse outcome instead of taking BPA.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
If Schoen and the scouts support vote yes on Daniels , I support Trading away whatever it takes to get him on the team. If.
If he translates to the NFL, he’s a franchise changing player.
I do not understand the rationale of passing on this player in the draft.
Check out the YPA. It's incredible.