SCHOEN: Evan got off to a really good camp, had a concussion, missed a couple of weeks, came back, and needs to play better. Evan needs to play better. He knows that. Look forward to getting him back here when he’s healthy, but I think he’d admit there’s some things that he can do better, and we look forward to him continuing to improve...
No, I don’t think so (moving him to guard). I went back and watched the Alabama stuff; the kid can play. We just got to get him to be more consistent. Like I’ve got a lot of confidence in Evan, he’s a hard worker, it’s killing him right now to be out there. He’s missing some valuable reps in year two, but as soon as he’s healthy, he’s scratching and clawing to get back. We are looking forward to getting him back there, but he knows there is some things he can do better and that’s what we expect from him. |
Am I reading too much into this in suggesting that Schoen may think coaching is part of the issue here?
Coaching aside, Schoen sounds like me in "defending" Neal... i.e. how the training camp injury set him back, what he looked like in college, etc. And this is coming from a guy (me) who was arguing against a RT in round one a year ago. Neal didn't look like this in college.
He looks like a different dude - completely different. If he were in this draft class coming up and I was using the college tape again - it would be Neal in the discussion for OT1 (and there are two really good ones here)
The balance problem was worrisome - but it got worse, not better. His technique and bend are so different, too.
Agreed. Had enough good high-profiled games in the SEC, and with his size, to project into first half of Rd 1 and then progress from there.
Now he seems like a guy who plays like an early Day 3 pick who has a lot to development ahead of him.
Don't think there's much else to read into this.
I don't know. Seems like what Sy is saying... there is a disconnect/change between him at Alabama and him in the NFL.
The only thing I can point to is coaching, I'm not thrilled with Bobby Thompson and as much as we got excited over him working out with Willie Anderson in the offseason, maybe that wasn't the right fit.
Honestly if I were him, I'd stay glued to Andrew Thomas after the season was over and would do everything he does.
The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.
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Is that Evan needs to play better and he thinks he will, and at tackle.
Don't think there's much else to read into this.
I don't know. Seems like what Sy is saying... there is a disconnect/change between him at Alabama and him in the NFL.
Totally agreed. I don't think I saw a single mock without Neal top 10 and usually top 5. I saw one the other day where they had Thibs number 1 and Neal 2.
He doesn't look like the same player.
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of him because of it. He had good QB play at Alabama and they masked some of those sins. He has to speed up out of his stance...a lot.
At one point early in draft process he was getting listed as overall #1 pick which was too optimistic. Neal got beat often in the SEC but with his pedigree, size and the 'Bama reputation his draft stock held well enough to be a Top 10 pick.
Neal has got to get better. His lack of development killed our season.
This is definitely an overstatement. The bigger problem with the OL was the missed games with Thomas, which resulted in terrible LT play in those games, and that did result in the first DJ injury. And the biggest problem on this OL has been the poor OG play, at both spots. Bredeson has been worse than Neal, so has McKethan. Neal's play has been the third worst issue with the line out of these factors.
And again, he improved over the course of the season. Not to where we'd like him to be yet, but he was playing what I would term as average-level tackle play since week 4. Which is better than terrible. He still has time, hopefully he will be back on the field to get some much-needed reps sooner rather than later.
He is not been average for more than 2 or so quarters this entire season when he has played. It's not an overstatement.
With that said, I would still keep plugging him in at RT when next year starts. Unfortunately, he will likely be protecting a prized rookie QB so things could get dicey.
Right tackle - a position he also played in college for a full year - should have been easier for him.
The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.
I agree.
That said, if the Giants stay healthy from here out and play their best ball in December, maybe Dabs wasn't totally wrong.
Problem is he is missed time both in 2022 and 2023. He's missing too many games.
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I've said it a bunch of time for a couple of months now... no more soft camps/preseason. It didn't help on the injury front regardless.
The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.
I agree.
That said, if the Giants stay healthy from here out and play their best ball in December, maybe Dabs wasn't totally wrong.
That's little consolation with the season already over.
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big strides in their 3rd years... if he does and becomes an above average RT we are in good shape.
Problem is he is missed time both in 2022 and 2023. He's missing too many games.
Completely agree... I also think the OL coaching has been subpar... they don't play well together.
The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.
Yeah agree. I don't know if they actually had a soft camp but our OL guys get pushed around way too much when the real bullets fly. And I am a believer that contributes to many injuries.
Not at all. He doesn't come out and say it directly, but when he says that the guy works hard and points to this as his having ability, what else could it be? I mean, Phillips left and came back a better player somehow. It's a very plausible interpretation.
I see a guy thinking too much instead of just aggressively playing. When you think too much, you play MUCH slower. Thus his feet and his technique in general look slow, disorganize, it exacerbates his balance issues.
I've believed (and still do) that if they can have enough patience with him, he will eventually "get it" and become a VERY good tackle.
Of course, he has to get on the field and STAY THERE for that to happen!
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It is him justifying the pick. He is a top 7 picks. So, if it isn't the talent then what is it? Nobody is questioning his effort. The obvious choice is coaching.
The counter argument is he may be a good athlete, but not in the areas a tackle needs to be athletic. I think this is what Sy alludes to in his reviews.
What has me confused is again, we're not talking about a crap conference. He played against NFL caliber defensive linemen and linebackers in the SEC. He was a rock out there at LT, RT, and OG. It's why many pundits had him going #1 at one point.
Happens a lot. Greg Robinson played for Auburn, was the #2 pick. Dominating run blocker and scouts thought the overall athleticism would allow him to clean up his issues in pass pro in the NFL. The upside was tremendous. Whoops.
I think the same projection was applied to Neal. I'm still hopeful, but there's a lot of first round tackles that look great in college against good competition that just can't hack it at the NFL level for whatever reason.
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In comment 16306330 Eric from BBI said:
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I've said it a bunch of time for a couple of months now... no more soft camps/preseason. It didn't help on the injury front regardless.
The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.
I agree.
That said, if the Giants stay healthy from here out and play their best ball in December, maybe Dabs wasn't totally wrong.
That's little consolation with the season already over.
Indeed. I'd put sad and frustrated emojis here if I knew how.
That is what fans want to hear. So the question for BBI is: "Is he being sincere, or just hoping?"
I see a guy thinking too much instead of just aggressively playing. When you think too much, you play MUCH slower. Thus his feet and his technique in general look slow, disorganize, it exacerbates his balance issues.
I've believed (and still do) that if they can have enough patience with him, he will eventually "get it" and become a VERY good tackle.
Of course, he has to get on the field and STAY THERE for that to happen!
Evan showed his true potential to dominate in the SEC Championship game because he was more aggressive in every phase of his game. He trusted his techniques but at the same time used his god-given athletic talent on every block to defeat his opponent at the point of attack and when pass blocking. I suspect that Evan will struggle at first at the next level because he doesn’t like to make mistakes and thinks too much before the snap instead of just playing his game....Evan has to play with the aggressiveness he showed in the championship game and accept that perfectionism is for practice and survival is for the game.
full profile - ( New Window )
Dabs has to man up and fire his buddy Johnson as soon as the season ends and they need to find the right guy to develop all the young’uns they have.
Think about it … not one OL has improved over the past 2 years.
That is what fans want to hear. So the question for BBI is: "Is he being sincere, or just hoping?"
Hoping.
I can't refer to Bobby Johnson being let go as "sacrificial" in any way shape or form. He's coached one of the worst units in football the last 2 years despite having one of the best players at the most important position, no one outside of Thomas has progressed and truth be told, Johnson wasn't good in Buffalo.
My dream scenario is that if Stefanski gets let go, we throw a boatload of money at Callahan and let him finally fix this thing.
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If anything as a sacrificial lamb, but I haven't been impressed with the development, or lack thereof, of our younger guys. The inability to find a starting lineup in our interior until the 11th hour was another red flag imo.
I can't refer to Bobby Johnson being let go as "sacrificial" in any way shape or form. He's coached one of the worst units in football the last 2 years despite having one of the best players at the most important position, no one outside of Thomas has progressed and truth be told, Johnson wasn't good in Buffalo.
My dream scenario is that if Stefanski gets let go, we throw a boatload of money at Callahan and let him finally fix this thing.
Should add in, its a dream scenario because I don't see it happening, Stefanski is the best coach Cleveland has had in years.
To me he is not a sacrificial lamb at all. He has not developed or improved one player that I can see, in two years.
Ask yourself - do you see any OL on this team that improved(except AT) in the past two years?
I also don't understand why people think it is strange that Schoen went back to watch Evan Neal's college tape:
1) he is confirming that he saw what he saw in Neal to draft him at #7
2) he is self scouting - what did he miss in Neal that he is not developing
Let's remember that in the Dallas draft room photo that they had Thibs as their #1 rated player and Neal as their #2 rated player. When was the last time the Cowboys missed on OL? They drafted Travis Frederick in the first round when everyone had him 3rd round, maybe 2nd. I remember people scratching their heads.
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In comment 16306303 Sy'56 said:
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I went back and watched Neal tape from Alabama a few weeks ago
He looks like a different dude - completely different. If he were in this draft class coming up and I was using the college tape again - it would be Neal in the discussion for OT1 (and there are two really good ones here)
The balance problem was worrisome - but it got worse, not better. His technique and bend are so different, too.
So what the heck is going on?
Sounds like you and Schoen had the same thought and simply take another look.
I think there is a psychology component here that will go deeper than us watching tape. Neal is tripping trying to tie his shoes. I think he had some early struggles and did not respond to adversity like a player needs to.
Do you see any difference in the techniques he is being asked to utilize by the Giants vs what he was doing at Alabama?
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I went back and watched Neal tape from Alabama a few weeks ago
He looks like a different dude - completely different. If he were in this draft class coming up and I was using the college tape again - it would be Neal in the discussion for OT1 (and there are two really good ones here)
The balance problem was worrisome - but it got worse, not better. His technique and bend are so different, too.
So what the heck is going on?
Sounds like you and Schoen had the same thought and simply take another look.
Lets not forget that Thomas after a bad year -went back to his college coach to get right... that alone tells you whats going on.. the other was Neal going to the OL camp and the coach being happy about it. it was just odd.
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Is that Evan needs to play better and he thinks he will, and at tackle.
Don't think there's much else to read into this.
I don't know. Seems like what Sy is saying... there is a disconnect/change between him at Alabama and him in the NFL.
I think the other issue is youth and confidence -he looks like he is thinking too much.. Thibs was the same up until recently his play was mostly off a sec or 2 bc he was thinking and not reacting... Same with the LBrs. and we are starting to see i with the secondary Flott, Banks Dre etc. It takes time for it to click.. especially at that level
Indulging myself in some uninformed armchair psychology here....a guy like Neal has likely, due to his significant edge in size and talent, not faced much likelihood of failure in his career prior to the NFL. By all accounts, he's a hard worker, so effort isn't the issue. Athletic ability isn't the issue. It might simply be that he's too wound up and afraid of making mistakes, and that's keeping him from just going out and playing.
Thomas had to adjust to it too. Coupled with Neal's inherent deficiencies it's just a learning process.
The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.
The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.
This 100%
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I went back and watched Neal tape from Alabama a few weeks ago
He looks like a different dude - completely different. If he were in this draft class coming up and I was using the college tape again - it would be Neal in the discussion for OT1 (and there are two really good ones here)
The balance problem was worrisome - but it got worse, not better. His technique and bend are so different, too.
Agreed. Had enough good high-profiled games in the SEC, and with his size, to project into first half of Rd 1 and then progress from there.
Now he seems like a guy who plays like an early Day 3 pick who has a lot to development ahead of him.
Says to me coaching is an issue, and whatever Johnson is teaching him isn't working.
College OL coming to the NFL need a LOT of technique work. Pro OL coaches aren't just a buddy to watch film with. The best ones do a LOT of teaching, and the best teachers find ways to connect the technique to the individual player. In my view, Johnson hasn't done it with a single player since he's been here.
Many want to dismiss the role of an OL coach and point the finger at the player, but I disagree with that strongly in the case of Neal. I have connections with people that have known him since IMG and the picture they paint is of a conscientious young man who matured greatly at Alabama and has all of the want-to, and the physical talent (obviously) to succeed in the NFL.
Something isn't clicking and the first thing that needs to change is the guy running the OL room.
The one blemish is that he was promoted and then demoted as OL coach in Indi.
Another guy to look at is Adrian Klemm, currently Belichick’s OL coach but who also served as OL coach for the Steelers. He left Pitt with rumors of a bad relationship with just fired OC Matt Cahadas. Relatively young.
I see a guy thinking too much instead of just aggressively playing. When you think too much, you play MUCH slower. Thus his feet and his technique in general look slow, disorganize, it exacerbates his balance issues.
I've believed (and still do) that if they can have enough patience with him, he will eventually "get it" and become a VERY good tackle.
Of course, he has to get on the field and STAY THERE for that to happen!
Where did you come up with this ? If anything Willie Anderson changed his foot work . As far as making him think too much , he can’t even handle a rudimentary end-tackle game . Against pressure fronts , he misses his guy more than any starting ROT I’ve seen on the Giants in years . And the Edge can get around him off the snap without dint of a second move . It’s been brutal .
My best friend keeps telling me he’s a run blocker . This is a passing league now . I know what Schoen said. I think he was searching for a reason to continue to believe. I don’t anymore . And regardless of what the VP-GM says I think his best shot is playing next to Thomas .
A better right guard
And run smash mouth football to the right side. IE Barkley doesn’t run smash mouth
I also wonder if he is a bit soft.
He looks like a different dude - completely different. If he were in this draft class coming up and I was using the college tape again - it would be Neal in the discussion for OT1 (and there are two really good ones here)
The balance problem was worrisome - but it got worse, not better. His technique and bend are so different, too.
Hopefully he’ll snap out of it and become good - but we are overthinking this.
*Andrew Thomas was an All Pro-calibre player before he got here.
*Josh Ezeudu and Marcus McKethan look terrible so far. Ezeudu failing to grab a starting G spot has to be a disappointment.
*Glowinski's play has taken a nosedive to the point he isn't even in consideration for playing time on a bad OL.
*Lemieux looked worse than ever.
*Phillips made some comments about how much better the coaching was in PHI when he got back here.
*Mayfield looked completely incapable of playing football when they needed him.
*And now - Schmitz, who BJ was very high on during the draft process. Looks OK, we'll see. Hoping he improves.
And obviously, they look clueless as a unit.
*Andrew Thomas was an All Pro-calibre player before he got here.
*Josh Ezeudu and Marcus McKethan look terrible so far. Ezeudu failing to grab a starting G spot has to be a disappointment.
*Glowinski's play has taken a nosedive to the point he isn't even in consideration for playing time on a bad OL.
*Lemieux looked worse than ever.
*Phillips made some comments about how much better the coaching was in PHI when he got back here.
*Mayfield looked completely incapable of playing football when they needed him.
*And now - Schmitz, who BJ was very high on during the draft process. Looks OK, we'll see. Hoping he improves.
And obviously, they look clueless as a unit.
adding to the list, his hand picked center conversion "dirtbag" didn't convert well, then bounced to SF for a league minimum backup role.
activating mckethan from PUP with 0 reps and giving lemiuex/peart roster spots over Tyre Phillips continues to be the biggest wtf was he watching all summer? Phillips has been better than Neal for the most part.
but hey, at least bobby talked the talk of a tough guy. if he's back next year ill be shocked.
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I think there is a psychology component here that will go deeper than us watching tape. Neal is tripping trying to tie his shoes. I think he had some early struggles and did not respond to adversity like a player needs to.
Indulging myself in some uninformed armchair psychology here....a guy like Neal has likely, due to his significant edge in size and talent, not faced much likelihood of failure in his career prior to the NFL. By all accounts, he's a hard worker, so effort isn't the issue. Athletic ability isn't the issue. It might simply be that he's too wound up and afraid of making mistakes, and that's keeping him from just going out and playing.
Maybe he he's suffering from some bizarro version of the David Carr "gunshy from being sacked" issue -- he's been damaged by all the sacks Daniel Jones has been at fault for.