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Is this one of the most telling comments from presser?

Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/28/2023 1:53 pm
Quote:
SCHOEN: Evan got off to a really good camp, had a concussion, missed a couple of weeks, came back, and needs to play better. Evan needs to play better. He knows that. Look forward to getting him back here when he’s healthy, but I think he’d admit there’s some things that he can do better, and we look forward to him continuing to improve...

No, I don’t think so (moving him to guard). I went back and watched the Alabama stuff; the kid can play. We just got to get him to be more consistent. Like I’ve got a lot of confidence in Evan, he’s a hard worker, it’s killing him right now to be out there. He’s missing some valuable reps in year two, but as soon as he’s healthy, he’s scratching and clawing to get back. We are looking forward to getting him back there, but he knows there is some things he can do better and that’s what we expect from him.


Am I reading too much into this in suggesting that Schoen may think coaching is part of the issue here?

Coaching aside, Schoen sounds like me in "defending" Neal... i.e. how the training camp injury set him back, what he looked like in college, etc. And this is coming from a guy (me) who was arguing against a RT in round one a year ago. Neal didn't look like this in college.
good catch  
Eric on Li : 11/28/2023 1:54 pm : link
why is bobby johnson's resume in the printer?
Not sure but he sounds like all of us  
Chris684 : 11/28/2023 1:56 pm : link
who are dumbfounded by this.

Neal looks like he should be an all-pro RT and has the college tape to back it up.

100%  
robbieballs2003 : 11/28/2023 1:56 pm : link
It is him justifying the pick. He is a top 7 picks. So, if it isn't the talent then what is it? Nobody is questioning his effort. The obvious choice is coaching.
Neal had some ugly moments...  
bw in dc : 11/28/2023 2:00 pm : link
at Alabama. Let's not act like was Tony Boselli coming out of USC. I recall Sy mentioning some situations with Neal that were concerning.

To me, this rang of Schoen having insecurity about the pick to try to feel better about a potentially colossal mistake.
RE: 100%  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/28/2023 2:01 pm : link
In comment 16306230 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
It is him justifying the pick. He is a top 7 picks. So, if it isn't the talent then what is it? Nobody is questioning his effort. The obvious choice is coaching.


The counter argument is he may be a good athlete, but not in the areas a tackle needs to be athletic. I think this is what Sy alludes to in his reviews.

What has me confused is again, we're not talking about a crap conference. He played against NFL caliber defensive linemen and linebackers in the SEC. He was a rock out there at LT, RT, and OG. It's why many pundits had him going #1 at one point.
I don't know  
jvm52106 : 11/28/2023 2:02 pm : link
seems more like we know he can play much better and do NOT want to move a T we took that high to Guard just yet.
Jerry Foley said the same thing on the Giant Insider podcast  
aimrocky : 11/28/2023 2:03 pm : link
yesterday.

In fact, I wish Jerry would have chimed in a bit more. He also touched on how the beat writers piled onto the Wink news after the Glazer report, by reporting on potential causes to the rift.
RE: Neal had some ugly moments...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/28/2023 2:04 pm : link
In comment 16306234 bw in dc said:
Quote:
at Alabama. Let's not act like was Tony Boselli coming out of USC. I recall Sy mentioning some situations with Neal that were concerning.

To me, this rang of Schoen having insecurity about the pick to try to feel better about a potentially colossal mistake.


bw in dc... I don't recall anyone saying that Evan Neal should not go top 5.

Here is Sy's review (as the #1 OT):

1: Evan Neal – Alabama – 6’7/337

Grade: 87

Summary: Junior entry from Okeechobee, Florida. Three-year starter at three different positions (LG, RT, LT). A 2019 Freshman All American that ended his career as a 2nd Team All American and 1st Team All SEC honoree. Neal, a team captain, is lauded by both the on-field coaches and support staff inside the walls. His attention to detail, intelligence, and work ethic have helped him deliver on his 5-star recruit profile out of high school. The fact he started right away as a true freshman for Nick Saban along the offensive line, a rarity, and progressed each season of his 3-year career while playing 3 different positions speaks volumes about his mental game. The obvious with Neal is the elite physical tools. His size is second to none, his power comes easy and natural, and the explosion within his blocking can put him in a rare tier of offensive line prospects. He did struggle with consistency throughout his career, as he showed low body awareness in several situations. He often oversets, leading to balance and control issues. Defenders were able to shake him off too many times. Neal’s upside is as high as it gets but the constant new-position he dealt with every year may have thrown off some important development. That versatility may help his outlook to some teams but once he is drafted, his true value will come when he settles into a position. Neal can eventually be one of the best linemen in the game.

*Prior to the start of the year, I had nearly no-doubt Neal was going to finish in the 90+ tier. But this is where you have to toss pre-conceived notions out the window when watching the tape. The truth is, Neal did not take a step forward. There are shortcomings within his skill set that arose weekly. The positive? These are all very correctable issues, and we see them corrected all the time. He has some of the same issues that Tristan Wirfs did coming out of Iowa in 2020. Wirfs was my OT1 in that class with a similar grade and is now an All-Pro. Neal can get on that path just as quickly, but I think he needs to settle into a position and remain there for a couple years. That hasn’t been the case since he was a high schooler. NYG would be an ideal destination for him. Insert him into the RT spot week 1 and they could have a top tier OT pair within a year or two. I would be excited to get this kid in blue.
Neal’s Slow Footwork And Frequent Loss Of Balance  
Trainmaster : 11/28/2023 2:07 pm : link
indicate to me he is ill suited to be a tackle at the NFL level.

Maybe he can make the switch to guard and be successful as William Roberts was eons ago.

RE: Neal’s Slow Footwork And Frequent Loss Of Balance  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/28/2023 2:08 pm : link
In comment 16306250 Trainmaster said:
Quote:
indicate to me he is ill suited to be a tackle at the NFL level.

Maybe he can make the switch to guard and be successful as William Roberts was eons ago.


The GM just said no to that.
RE: Neal had some ugly moments...  
OBJ_AllDay : 11/28/2023 2:09 pm : link
In comment 16306234 bw in dc said:
Quote:
at Alabama. Let's not act like was Tony Boselli coming out of USC. I recall Sy mentioning some situations with Neal that were concerning.

To me, this rang of Schoen having insecurity about the pick to try to feel better about a potentially colossal mistake.


Bingo
A few weeks back I went to the Washington game  
aimrocky : 11/28/2023 2:09 pm : link
with a current media member who has done scouting in the past (and contributed to BBI many many moons ago). He said something interesting about Neal, which may be hindsight...

He said he wasn't as high on Neal coming out because he lacked the killer instinct that's present in all of the great O-Lineman. In that draft class, he was highest on Tyler Smith. I followed that up with "Sy really didn't like Tyler Smith, what made you like him?" He said his technique was horrible, but he was nasty and an extreme competitor. He thought that a good coach would be able to teach him technique, but you can't teach the want to.
Eric...  
bw in dc : 11/28/2023 2:10 pm : link
I'm not questioning the idea of the pick. It mostly made sense. But Neal had some noticeable holes.

I'm trying to understand why Schoen said what you referenced. Which is indeed a good observation.

Well, except for the crowd that thinks these pressers tell us nothing... ;)
I've said this at different points this year  
allstarjim : 11/28/2023 2:10 pm : link
It's not that Neal doesn't have the skillset and attributes to be good. He has really great reps against all kinds of rushers.

His issue is just consistency in his technique. He needs reps, and that's the worst thing about this latest injury. I still believe he'll be at worst a passable right tackle in the NFL. I've seen enough of his play this year to see that he can be that. I'd argue that prior to his latest injury, he was that from week 4 on. Still needs improvement, but he showed growth from the early season struggles in weeks 1-3 to weeks 4 and later.
RE: Neal’s Slow Footwork And Frequent Loss Of Balance  
Optimus-NY : 11/28/2023 2:12 pm : link
In comment 16306250 Trainmaster said:
Quote:
indicate to me he is ill suited to be a tackle at the NFL level.

Maybe he can make the switch to guard and be successful as William Roberts was eons ago.


Exactly what I see. This is William Roberts all over again (not exactly of course, but somewhat similar).
RE: Neal’s Slow Footwork And Frequent Loss Of Balance  
allstarjim : 11/28/2023 2:12 pm : link
In comment 16306250 Trainmaster said:
Quote:
indicate to me he is ill suited to be a tackle at the NFL level.

Maybe he can make the switch to guard and be successful as William Roberts was eons ago.


It's a BBI myth that Neal has slow feet. He has good tackle feet. It's his balance and technique (and they are related) that has been his issues. But he has shown plenty of reps of getting to his spot and making great blocks against speed outside. If you have slow feet, that's not happening very often.
That was my first thought  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/28/2023 2:13 pm : link
but I also thought it could have been to see what mistake they made in the scouting process if he was thinking that they may have missed some things.

Really hard not to see a change at OL coach though.

I actually thought his most telling comment was discussing Jones and highlighting the SF game without AT and SB.
RE: Jerry Foley said the same thing on the Giant Insider podcast  
mittenedman : 11/28/2023 2:15 pm : link
In comment 16306240 aimrocky said:
Quote:
yesterday.

In fact, I wish Jerry would have chimed in a bit more. He also touched on how the beat writers piled onto the Wink news after the Glazer report, by reporting on potential causes to the rift.


I heard that, too. It sounded like Biz said Wink does some old school stuff like having meetings run late, hanging out, and the players kind of groan about it….not sure if that’s what he meant or I misheard.
Maybe we can get Zeitler back  
robbieballs2003 : 11/28/2023 2:16 pm : link
and he can teach him about doing pass sets in his kitchen.
RE: A few weeks back I went to the Washington game  
MojoEd : 11/28/2023 2:17 pm : link
In comment 16306253 aimrocky said:
Quote:
with a current media member who has done scouting in the past (and contributed to BBI many many moons ago). He said something interesting about Neal, which may be hindsight...

He said he wasn't as high on Neal coming out because he lacked the killer instinct that's present in all of the great O-Lineman. In that draft class, he was highest on Tyler Smith. I followed that up with "Sy really didn't like Tyler Smith, what made you like him?" He said his technique was horrible, but he was nasty and an extreme competitor. He thought that a good coach would be able to teach him technique, but you can't teach the want to.

There could be something to that. Isn’t it a common story of a guy being railroaded into football because of their size, but don’t have a passion for the game and can bust in the pros? Still hoping it’s just coaching though. His outburst to fan criticism was immature but at least shows some pride/desire, but dunno.
Eric  
M.S. : 11/28/2023 2:20 pm : link
My recollection is that over the last year or so your past comments on Evan Neal are perfectly encapsulated in your pull quote from Joe Schoen. And if I didn’t know better I might even say Joe Schoen had your past remarks in mind when he spoke of Evan Neal. My only wish is that I could view Evan Neal through the same lenses that you and Joe Schoen are looking through.
I thought the comment about rewatching his college film  
DaveInTampa : 11/28/2023 2:24 pm : link
Was really odd. Lots of players that are great in college (including those in top conferences) don't make it in the NFL, for all sorts of reasons. As good as the SEC is, it is nothing compared to the NFL. I like Schoen a lot, but that comment seemed somewhat arrogant to me, like he just couldn't fathom that his evaluation may have been wrong
I also  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/28/2023 2:25 pm : link
make this point.

There was plenty of ugly tape on Ereck Flowers. And that was pointed out before the draft. I didn't hear those comments with Neal.
It means Bobby Johnson  
Blueworm : 11/28/2023 2:28 pm : link
had better be looking for work.
He had issues in college  
Now Mike in MD : 11/28/2023 2:29 pm : link
but there is a difference between him being an imperfect RT due to those issues and being an absolute train wreck, which he has been far too often. There was nothing in college to indicate he'd be disastrous.

To me, when I watch him, he looks like he is thinking way too much and lacks confidence in whatever technique he is being asked to utilize in pass sets.

I'd love if someone could look at what he was sked to do at Bama vs Giants and see the differences are.
 
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/28/2023 2:29 pm : link
Seems like Joe taking a shot at Johnson, who I suspect will be gone at the end of the season.
Well he is our starting RT next year  
larryflower37 : 11/28/2023 2:31 pm : link
His poor play has surprised everyone in the organization, going back and reevaluating the tape tells you he was looking for what he missed and a sign that he made a bad pick.
Obviously they are on step 2- what has caused the decline and lack of development. Is it coaching? Did he get paid and stop working?
The potential is there and he has all the tools so what is the miss?
RE: I also  
Larry in Pencilvania : 11/28/2023 2:32 pm : link
In comment 16306279 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
make this point.

There was plenty of ugly tape on Ereck Flowers. And that was pointed out before the draft. I didn't hear those comments with Neal.


Sy has said his issues on his college tape were very correctable. Reading between the lines, Bobby Johnson is being thrown under the bus and more than likely out
One move that needs to be made this off-season is  
nyjuggernaut2 : 11/28/2023 2:33 pm : link
firing Bobby Johnson. It is no coincidence that Tyre Phillips was crap here and got cut, went to another team, and came back as a better player. Coaching can make a difference in the NFL, especially at the O-Line.
Neal is way too slow with his footwork and the NFL is taking advantage  
ThomasG : 11/28/2023 2:35 pm : link
of him because of it. He had good QB play at Alabama and they masked some of those sins. He has to speed up out of his stance...a lot.

At one point early in draft process he was getting listed as overall #1 pick which was too optimistic. Neal got beat often in the SEC but with his pedigree, size and the 'Bama reputation his draft stock held well enough to be a Top 10 pick.

Neal has got to get better. His lack of development killed our season.

RE: RE: Neal’s Slow Footwork And Frequent Loss Of Balance  
ThomasG : 11/28/2023 2:38 pm : link
In comment 16306258 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 16306250 Trainmaster said:


Quote:


indicate to me he is ill suited to be a tackle at the NFL level.

Maybe he can make the switch to guard and be successful as William Roberts was eons ago.




It's a BBI myth that Neal has slow feet. He has good tackle feet. It's his balance and technique (and they are related) that has been his issues. But he has shown plenty of reps of getting to his spot and making great blocks against speed outside. If you have slow feet, that's not happening very often.


He's too slow in pass protection.
RE: Neal is way too slow with his footwork and the NFL is taking advantage  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/28/2023 2:40 pm : link
In comment 16306295 ThomasG said:
Quote:
of him because of it. He had good QB play at Alabama and they masked some of those sins. He has to speed up out of his stance...a lot.

At one point early in draft process he was getting listed as overall #1 pick which was too optimistic. Neal got beat often in the SEC but with his pedigree, size and the 'Bama reputation his draft stock held well enough to be a Top 10 pick.

Neal has got to get better. His lack of development killed our season.


He was a major reason why the season went downhill, but so were both guard spots. At one point, we had an OL out there that had something like 10 NFL starts between all five players.
I  
AcidTest : 11/28/2023 2:40 pm : link
don't think Neal can play tackle in the NFL. His doesn't have enough lateral ability or agility. His feet are just too slow. That causes balance and leverage problems. Remember that he didn't do any agility drills at the combine or his pro day. Yes, he looked terrific at Alabama, where he regularly faced SEC DEs, many of whom were NFL-caliber. But the SEC is not the NFL.

Schoen's comments notwithstanding, I think the Giants will eventually move him to guard at some point after this season.

RE: Neal is way too slow with his footwork and the NFL is taking advantage  
allstarjim : 11/28/2023 2:41 pm : link
In comment 16306295 ThomasG said:
Quote:
of him because of it. He had good QB play at Alabama and they masked some of those sins. He has to speed up out of his stance...a lot.

At one point early in draft process he was getting listed as overall #1 pick which was too optimistic. Neal got beat often in the SEC but with his pedigree, size and the 'Bama reputation his draft stock held well enough to be a Top 10 pick.

Neal has got to get better. His lack of development killed our season.


This is definitely an overstatement. The bigger problem with the OL was the missed games with Thomas, which resulted in terrible LT play in those games, and that did result in the first DJ injury. And the biggest problem on this OL has been the poor OG play, at both spots. Bredeson has been worse than Neal, so has McKethan. Neal's play has been the third worst issue with the line out of these factors.

And again, he improved over the course of the season. Not to where we'd like him to be yet, but he was playing what I would term as average-level tackle play since week 4. Which is better than terrible. He still has time, hopefully he will be back on the field to get some much-needed reps sooner rather than later.
The funny thing is  
Sy'56 : 11/28/2023 2:42 pm : link
I went back and watched Neal tape from Alabama a few weeks ago

He looks like a different dude - completely different. If he were in this draft class coming up and I was using the college tape again - it would be Neal in the discussion for OT1 (and there are two really good ones here)

The balance problem was worrisome - but it got worse, not better. His technique and bend are so different, too.
RE: The funny thing is  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/28/2023 2:44 pm : link
In comment 16306303 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
I went back and watched Neal tape from Alabama a few weeks ago

He looks like a different dude - completely different. If he were in this draft class coming up and I was using the college tape again - it would be Neal in the discussion for OT1 (and there are two really good ones here)

The balance problem was worrisome - but it got worse, not better. His technique and bend are so different, too.


So what the heck is going on?

Sounds like you and Schoen had the same thought and simply take another look.
RE: I thought the comment about rewatching his college film  
Pete in MD : 11/28/2023 2:44 pm : link
In comment 16306277 DaveInTampa said:
Quote:
Was really odd. Lots of players that are great in college (including those in top conferences) don't make it in the NFL, for all sorts of reasons. As good as the SEC is, it is nothing compared to the NFL. I like Schoen a lot, but that comment seemed somewhat arrogant to me, like he just couldn't fathom that his evaluation may have been wrong

I kind of took it as him trying to improve on his player evaluation skills. Neal has been struggling, maybe he missed something in the eval to look for in the future? Just my opinion.
RE: RE: Neal is way too slow with his footwork and the NFL is taking advantage  
ThomasG : 11/28/2023 2:45 pm : link
In comment 16306298 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16306295 ThomasG said:


Quote:


of him because of it. He had good QB play at Alabama and they masked some of those sins. He has to speed up out of his stance...a lot.

At one point early in draft process he was getting listed as overall #1 pick which was too optimistic. Neal got beat often in the SEC but with his pedigree, size and the 'Bama reputation his draft stock held well enough to be a Top 10 pick.

Neal has got to get better. His lack of development killed our season.




He was a major reason why the season went downhill, but so were both guard spots. At one point, we had an OL out there that had something like 10 NFL starts between all five players.


It was a bit shocking to see how unprepared the OL was for the season. The season was over before it started mostly because of them. Put aside the Thomas injury for a second, they have been an NFL joke.

Not sure what the hell this coaching staff is doing in getting them prepared because they aren't.
He’s got to get back  
Dnew15 : 11/28/2023 2:45 pm : link
He’s still the most important player to evaluate on this roster moving forward.

His injuries are handcuffing the FO in improving this roster.
No need to read too deeply into this. Schoen is concerned about  
regulator : 11/28/2023 2:46 pm : link
Neal's development, and that he has not progressed as a pro in the way he envisioned he would as a prospect.

He touches on the injuries, but that's not the point.

This is as clear an indication as any, to me, that we are making a change at OL coach. You give up on your position coach sooner than you do your blue-chip, top-10 pick's career as a tackle.
I think this is the most telling but  
HardTruth : 11/28/2023 2:47 pm : link
Not in a good way

“Who can we bring in that can maybe help us win a couple of games while Daniel gets healthy, or maybe Daniel will be ready Week 1.”
RE: RE: The funny thing is  
Sy'56 : 11/28/2023 2:49 pm : link
In comment 16306306 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16306303 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


I went back and watched Neal tape from Alabama a few weeks ago

He looks like a different dude - completely different. If he were in this draft class coming up and I was using the college tape again - it would be Neal in the discussion for OT1 (and there are two really good ones here)

The balance problem was worrisome - but it got worse, not better. His technique and bend are so different, too.



So what the heck is going on?

Sounds like you and Schoen had the same thought and simply take another look.


I think there is a psychology component here that will go deeper than us watching tape. Neal is tripping trying to tie his shoes. I think he had some early struggles and did not respond to adversity like a player needs to.
What Schoen was saying  
HBart : 11/28/2023 2:49 pm : link
Is that Evan needs to play better and he thinks he will, and at tackle.

Don't think there's much else to read into this.
RE: I think this is the most telling but  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/28/2023 2:49 pm : link
In comment 16306315 HardTruth said:
Quote:
Not in a good way

“Who can we bring in that can maybe help us win a couple of games while Daniel gets healthy, or maybe Daniel will be ready Week 1.”


Yet that is offset by him later saying they would consider taking a QB in the first round. You don't take a QB in the first round for insurance purposes.
RE: The funny thing is  
ThomasG : 11/28/2023 2:50 pm : link
In comment 16306303 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
I went back and watched Neal tape from Alabama a few weeks ago

He looks like a different dude - completely different. If he were in this draft class coming up and I was using the college tape again - it would be Neal in the discussion for OT1 (and there are two really good ones here)

The balance problem was worrisome - but it got worse, not better. His technique and bend are so different, too.


Agreed. Had enough good high-profiled games in the SEC, and with his size, to project into first half of Rd 1 and then progress from there.

Now he seems like a guy who plays like an early Day 3 pick who has a lot to development ahead of him.
RE: What Schoen was saying  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/28/2023 2:51 pm : link
In comment 16306319 HBart said:
Quote:
Is that Evan needs to play better and he thinks he will, and at tackle.

Don't think there's much else to read into this.


I don't know. Seems like what Sy is saying... there is a disconnect/change between him at Alabama and him in the NFL.
Neal has me baffled  
Biteymax22 : 11/28/2023 2:51 pm : link
I saw a top 5 pick coming out of college, many, many others who know more than I do obviously did as well. He seems like a good kid, hard worker and someone that wants to get better too. All of this is why I'm baffled how he has looked so bad and made so little improvement, I really thought he was going to take a year 2 jump a la Andrew Thomas.

The only thing I can point to is coaching, I'm not thrilled with Bobby Thompson and as much as we got excited over him working out with Willie Anderson in the offseason, maybe that wasn't the right fit.

Honestly if I were him, I'd stay glued to Andrew Thomas after the season was over and would do everything he does.
ThomasG  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/28/2023 2:53 pm : link
I've said it a bunch of time for a couple of months now... no more soft camps/preseason. It didn't help on the injury front regardless.

The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.
RE: RE: What Schoen was saying  
HBart : 11/28/2023 2:58 pm : link
In comment 16306325 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16306319 HBart said:


Quote:


Is that Evan needs to play better and he thinks he will, and at tackle.

Don't think there's much else to read into this.



I don't know. Seems like what Sy is saying... there is a disconnect/change between him at Alabama and him in the NFL.

Totally agreed. I don't think I saw a single mock without Neal top 10 and usually top 5. I saw one the other day where they had Thibs number 1 and Neal 2.

He doesn't look like the same player.
OL can make  
Amtoft : 11/28/2023 2:58 pm : link
big strides in their 3rd years... if he does and becomes an above average RT we are in good shape.
RE: RE: Neal is way too slow with his footwork and the NFL is taking advantage  
ThomasG : 11/28/2023 2:58 pm : link
In comment 16306302 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 16306295 ThomasG said:


Quote:


of him because of it. He had good QB play at Alabama and they masked some of those sins. He has to speed up out of his stance...a lot.

At one point early in draft process he was getting listed as overall #1 pick which was too optimistic. Neal got beat often in the SEC but with his pedigree, size and the 'Bama reputation his draft stock held well enough to be a Top 10 pick.

Neal has got to get better. His lack of development killed our season.




This is definitely an overstatement. The bigger problem with the OL was the missed games with Thomas, which resulted in terrible LT play in those games, and that did result in the first DJ injury. And the biggest problem on this OL has been the poor OG play, at both spots. Bredeson has been worse than Neal, so has McKethan. Neal's play has been the third worst issue with the line out of these factors.

And again, he improved over the course of the season. Not to where we'd like him to be yet, but he was playing what I would term as average-level tackle play since week 4. Which is better than terrible. He still has time, hopefully he will be back on the field to get some much-needed reps sooner rather than later.


He is not been average for more than 2 or so quarters this entire season when he has played. It's not an overstatement.

With that said, I would still keep plugging him in at RT when next year starts. Unfortunately, he will likely be protecting a prized rookie QB so things could get dicey.
AND  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/28/2023 3:00 pm : link
he did what he did in his last year at LEFT TACKLE.

Right tackle - a position he also played in college for a full year - should have been easier for him.
RE: ThomasG  
HBart : 11/28/2023 3:00 pm : link
In comment 16306330 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I've said it a bunch of time for a couple of months now... no more soft camps/preseason. It didn't help on the injury front regardless.

The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.

I agree.

That said, if the Giants stay healthy from here out and play their best ball in December, maybe Dabs wasn't totally wrong.
RE: OL can make  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/28/2023 3:01 pm : link
In comment 16306339 Amtoft said:
Quote:
big strides in their 3rd years... if he does and becomes an above average RT we are in good shape.


Problem is he is missed time both in 2022 and 2023. He's missing too many games.
RE: RE: ThomasG  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/28/2023 3:02 pm : link
In comment 16306347 HBart said:
Quote:
In comment 16306330 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


I've said it a bunch of time for a couple of months now... no more soft camps/preseason. It didn't help on the injury front regardless.

The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.


I agree.

That said, if the Giants stay healthy from here out and play their best ball in December, maybe Dabs wasn't totally wrong.


That's little consolation with the season already over.
RE: RE: OL can make  
Amtoft : 11/28/2023 3:02 pm : link
In comment 16306350 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16306339 Amtoft said:


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big strides in their 3rd years... if he does and becomes an above average RT we are in good shape.



Problem is he is missed time both in 2022 and 2023. He's missing too many games.


Completely agree... I also think the OL coaching has been subpar... they don't play well together.
RE: ThomasG  
ThomasG : 11/28/2023 3:03 pm : link
In comment 16306330 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I've said it a bunch of time for a couple of months now... no more soft camps/preseason. It didn't help on the injury front regardless.

The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.


Yeah agree. I don't know if they actually had a soft camp but our OL guys get pushed around way too much when the real bullets fly. And I am a believer that contributes to many injuries.
Re: the question -  
UberAlias : 11/28/2023 3:06 pm : link
"Am I reading too much into this in suggesting that Schoen may think coaching is part of the issue here?"

Not at all. He doesn't come out and say it directly, but when he says that the guy works hard and points to this as his having ability, what else could it be? I mean, Phillips left and came back a better player somehow. It's a very plausible interpretation.
What hasn't been mentioned in this ENTIRE thread  
Dave on the UWS : 11/28/2023 3:08 pm : link
is that Neal was being asked to pass set differently than in college.
I see a guy thinking too much instead of just aggressively playing. When you think too much, you play MUCH slower. Thus his feet and his technique in general look slow, disorganize, it exacerbates his balance issues.
I've believed (and still do) that if they can have enough patience with him, he will eventually "get it" and become a VERY good tackle.
Of course, he has to get on the field and STAY THERE for that to happen!
RE: RE: 100%  
widmerseyebrow : 11/28/2023 3:10 pm : link
In comment 16306237 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 16306230 robbieballs2003 said:


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It is him justifying the pick. He is a top 7 picks. So, if it isn't the talent then what is it? Nobody is questioning his effort. The obvious choice is coaching.



The counter argument is he may be a good athlete, but not in the areas a tackle needs to be athletic. I think this is what Sy alludes to in his reviews.

What has me confused is again, we're not talking about a crap conference. He played against NFL caliber defensive linemen and linebackers in the SEC. He was a rock out there at LT, RT, and OG. It's why many pundits had him going #1 at one point.


Happens a lot. Greg Robinson played for Auburn, was the #2 pick. Dominating run blocker and scouts thought the overall athleticism would allow him to clean up his issues in pass pro in the NFL. The upside was tremendous. Whoops.

I think the same projection was applied to Neal. I'm still hopeful, but there's a lot of first round tackles that look great in college against good competition that just can't hack it at the NFL level for whatever reason.
The other comment that was telling  
UberAlias : 11/28/2023 3:10 pm : link
Was his mentioning going back and reviewing QBs in the 2018 draft. What was he doing that for? Hmmm.....
But I have to imagine Bobby Johnson is out  
widmerseyebrow : 11/28/2023 3:13 pm : link
If anything as a sacrificial lamb, but I haven't been impressed with the development, or lack thereof, of our younger guys. The inability to find a starting lineup in our interior until the 11th hour was another red flag imo.
RE: RE: RE: ThomasG  
HBart : 11/28/2023 3:14 pm : link
In comment 16306352 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 16306347 HBart said:


Quote:


In comment 16306330 Eric from BBI said:


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I've said it a bunch of time for a couple of months now... no more soft camps/preseason. It didn't help on the injury front regardless.

The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.


I agree.

That said, if the Giants stay healthy from here out and play their best ball in December, maybe Dabs wasn't totally wrong.



That's little consolation with the season already over.

Indeed. I'd put sad and frustrated emojis here if I knew how.
My reading is very basic: He says he's not giving up on Neal  
Marty in Albany : 11/28/2023 3:15 pm : link
at Tackle, and that Neal won't give up either.

That is what fans want to hear. So the question for BBI is: "Is he being sincere, or just hoping?"
Neal had Blue Goose tackle written all over him coming out.  
JerseyCityJoe : 11/28/2023 3:19 pm : link
Balance issues aside he just seems soft.
RE: What hasn't been mentioned in this ENTIRE thread  
Milton : 11/28/2023 3:26 pm : link
In comment 16306359 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
is that Neal was being asked to pass set differently than in college.
I see a guy thinking too much instead of just aggressively playing. When you think too much, you play MUCH slower. Thus his feet and his technique in general look slow, disorganize, it exacerbates his balance issues.
I've believed (and still do) that if they can have enough patience with him, he will eventually "get it" and become a VERY good tackle.
Of course, he has to get on the field and STAY THERE for that to happen!
This is consistent with Boylhart's 2022 profile...
Quote:
Evan can be a franchise Left Tackle if he plays the way he played in the Georgia game recently. Most of the season he seemed to be afraid to make a mistake. He was slow into his blocks and into his lateral movements as if he was afraid to get beat inside. That’s not a bad thing but, if he is undecided at all off the snap of the ball at the next level, Evan will get eaten alive. Evan might be a bit of a perfectionist and that could hold him back from reaching his top potential.

Evan showed his true potential to dominate in the SEC Championship game because he was more aggressive in every phase of his game. He trusted his techniques but at the same time used his god-given athletic talent on every block to defeat his opponent at the point of attack and when pass blocking. I suspect that Evan will struggle at first at the next level because he doesn’t like to make mistakes and thinks too much before the snap instead of just playing his game....Evan has to play with the aggressiveness he showed in the championship game and accept that perfectionism is for practice and survival is for the game.

full profile - ( New Window )
View the comment in the context of the broader issues on the OL.  
Spider56 : 11/28/2023 3:34 pm : link
Not one young OL, not one I repeat, has improved over the past 2 seasons. Schoen knows this. I think he watched the tapes to revalidate his view that Neal has the potential to be better.

Dabs has to man up and fire his buddy Johnson as soon as the season ends and they need to find the right guy to develop all the young’uns they have.

Think about it … not one OL has improved over the past 2 years.
yup I agree Eric. I think the Off Co and OL coach are both in trouble  
Victor in CT : 11/28/2023 3:37 pm : link
And doubly agree about the Flowers comparisons. They're just stupid. Flowers was known to have many serious flaws coming out of college and was a clear reach. Neal was universally thought of as a top 10 pick, even top 5 by some.
RE: My reading is very basic: He says he's not giving up on Neal  
M.S. : 11/28/2023 4:05 pm : link
In comment 16306379 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
at Tackle, and that Neal won't give up either.

That is what fans want to hear. So the question for BBI is: "Is he being sincere, or just hoping?"

Hoping.
RE: But I have to imagine Bobby Johnson is out  
Biteymax22 : 11/28/2023 4:08 pm : link
In comment 16306371 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
If anything as a sacrificial lamb, but I haven't been impressed with the development, or lack thereof, of our younger guys. The inability to find a starting lineup in our interior until the 11th hour was another red flag imo.


I can't refer to Bobby Johnson being let go as "sacrificial" in any way shape or form. He's coached one of the worst units in football the last 2 years despite having one of the best players at the most important position, no one outside of Thomas has progressed and truth be told, Johnson wasn't good in Buffalo.

My dream scenario is that if Stefanski gets let go, we throw a boatload of money at Callahan and let him finally fix this thing.
RE: RE: But I have to imagine Bobby Johnson is out  
Biteymax22 : 11/28/2023 4:10 pm : link
In comment 16306487 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
In comment 16306371 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


If anything as a sacrificial lamb, but I haven't been impressed with the development, or lack thereof, of our younger guys. The inability to find a starting lineup in our interior until the 11th hour was another red flag imo.



I can't refer to Bobby Johnson being let go as "sacrificial" in any way shape or form. He's coached one of the worst units in football the last 2 years despite having one of the best players at the most important position, no one outside of Thomas has progressed and truth be told, Johnson wasn't good in Buffalo.

My dream scenario is that if Stefanski gets let go, we throw a boatload of money at Callahan and let him finally fix this thing.


Should add in, its a dream scenario because I don't see it happening, Stefanski is the best coach Cleveland has had in years.
RE: But I have to imagine Bobby Johnson is out  
section125 : 11/28/2023 4:11 pm : link
In comment 16306371 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
If anything as a sacrificial lamb, but I haven't been impressed with the development, or lack thereof, of our younger guys. The inability to find a starting lineup in our interior until the 11th hour was another red flag imo.


To me he is not a sacrificial lamb at all. He has not developed or improved one player that I can see, in two years.

Ask yourself - do you see any OL on this team that improved(except AT) in the past two years?

I also don't understand why people think it is strange that Schoen went back to watch Evan Neal's college tape:

1) he is confirming that he saw what he saw in Neal to draft him at #7
2) he is self scouting - what did he miss in Neal that he is not developing

Let's remember that in the Dallas draft room photo that they had Thibs as their #1 rated player and Neal as their #2 rated player. When was the last time the Cowboys missed on OL? They drafted Travis Frederick in the first round when everyone had him 3rd round, maybe 2nd. I remember people scratching their heads.
I’ve been asking all year,  
Section331 : 11/28/2023 4:14 pm : link
what OL has gotten better, or outplayed his rep under Johnson? Maybe you can point to JMS being serviceable pretty quickly, but he was almost unanimously seen as the most NFL-ready OC in the draft. At some point, you have to look at the coaching.
RE: RE: RE: The funny thing is  
Now Mike in MD : 11/28/2023 4:31 pm : link
In comment 16306316 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 16306306 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 16306303 Sy'56 said:


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I went back and watched Neal tape from Alabama a few weeks ago

He looks like a different dude - completely different. If he were in this draft class coming up and I was using the college tape again - it would be Neal in the discussion for OT1 (and there are two really good ones here)

The balance problem was worrisome - but it got worse, not better. His technique and bend are so different, too.



So what the heck is going on?

Sounds like you and Schoen had the same thought and simply take another look.



I think there is a psychology component here that will go deeper than us watching tape. Neal is tripping trying to tie his shoes. I think he had some early struggles and did not respond to adversity like a player needs to.


Do you see any difference in the techniques he is being asked to utilize by the Giants vs what he was doing at Alabama?
RE: RE: The funny thing is  
TheBlueprintNC : 11/28/2023 4:36 pm : link
In comment 16306306 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16306303 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


I went back and watched Neal tape from Alabama a few weeks ago

He looks like a different dude - completely different. If he were in this draft class coming up and I was using the college tape again - it would be Neal in the discussion for OT1 (and there are two really good ones here)

The balance problem was worrisome - but it got worse, not better. His technique and bend are so different, too.



So what the heck is going on?

Sounds like you and Schoen had the same thought and simply take another look.


Lets not forget that Thomas after a bad year -went back to his college coach to get right... that alone tells you whats going on.. the other was Neal going to the OL camp and the coach being happy about it. it was just odd.
RE: RE: What Schoen was saying  
TheBlueprintNC : 11/28/2023 4:40 pm : link
In comment 16306325 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 16306319 HBart said:


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Is that Evan needs to play better and he thinks he will, and at tackle.

Don't think there's much else to read into this.



I don't know. Seems like what Sy is saying... there is a disconnect/change between him at Alabama and him in the NFL.


I think the other issue is youth and confidence -he looks like he is thinking too much.. Thibs was the same up until recently his play was mostly off a sec or 2 bc he was thinking and not reacting... Same with the LBrs. and we are starting to see i with the secondary Flott, Banks Dre etc. It takes time for it to click.. especially at that level
RE: RE: RE: The funny thing is  
Greg from LI : 11/28/2023 4:43 pm : link
In comment 16306316 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
I think there is a psychology component here that will go deeper than us watching tape. Neal is tripping trying to tie his shoes. I think he had some early struggles and did not respond to adversity like a player needs to.


Indulging myself in some uninformed armchair psychology here....a guy like Neal has likely, due to his significant edge in size and talent, not faced much likelihood of failure in his career prior to the NFL. By all accounts, he's a hard worker, so effort isn't the issue. Athletic ability isn't the issue. It might simply be that he's too wound up and afraid of making mistakes, and that's keeping him from just going out and playing.
We're forgetting that the Giants run a somewhat unique blocking scheme  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/28/2023 4:45 pm : link
He's not going to look like Alabama because what Bobby Johnson wants his guys to do is not like Alabama, there are differences in footwork and technical and mental approach, and the competition is a lot better than beating up on 19 year old kids and non-NFL talent.

Thomas had to adjust to it too. Coupled with Neal's inherent deficiencies it's just a learning process.

RE: ThomasG  
81_Great_Dane : 11/28/2023 4:48 pm : link
In comment 16306330 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I've said it a bunch of time for a couple of months now... no more soft camps/preseason. It didn't help on the injury front regardless.

The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.
I think this is an under-examined part of the story. They came out in game 1 and looked completely unprepared for real games. Daboll better have learned a lesson from that.
RE: ThomasG  
Rjanyg : 11/28/2023 4:56 pm : link
In comment 16306330 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I've said it a bunch of time for a couple of months now... no more soft camps/preseason. It didn't help on the injury front regardless.

The team wasn't ready for the start of the season.


This 100%
RE: RE: The funny thing is  
regulator : 11/28/2023 4:58 pm : link
In comment 16306324 ThomasG said:
Quote:
In comment 16306303 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


I went back and watched Neal tape from Alabama a few weeks ago

He looks like a different dude - completely different. If he were in this draft class coming up and I was using the college tape again - it would be Neal in the discussion for OT1 (and there are two really good ones here)

The balance problem was worrisome - but it got worse, not better. His technique and bend are so different, too.



Agreed. Had enough good high-profiled games in the SEC, and with his size, to project into first half of Rd 1 and then progress from there.

Now he seems like a guy who plays like an early Day 3 pick who has a lot to development ahead of him.


Says to me coaching is an issue, and whatever Johnson is teaching him isn't working.

College OL coming to the NFL need a LOT of technique work. Pro OL coaches aren't just a buddy to watch film with. The best ones do a LOT of teaching, and the best teachers find ways to connect the technique to the individual player. In my view, Johnson hasn't done it with a single player since he's been here.

Many want to dismiss the role of an OL coach and point the finger at the player, but I disagree with that strongly in the case of Neal. I have connections with people that have known him since IMG and the picture they paint is of a conscientious young man who matured greatly at Alabama and has all of the want-to, and the physical talent (obviously) to succeed in the NFL.

Something isn't clicking and the first thing that needs to change is the guy running the OL room.
Let me float an OL coach name  
cosmicj : 11/28/2023 5:32 pm : link
Joe Gilbert of the Bucs. That team is imploding and it may leave Gilbert uncalled for. Gilbert has extensive NFL coaching exp, with multi year stints with both the Colts and Bucs. He is from upstate NY, btw.

The one blemish is that he was promoted and then demoted as OL coach in Indi.

Another guy to look at is Adrian Klemm, currently Belichick’s OL coach but who also served as OL coach for the Steelers. He left Pitt with rumors of a bad relationship with just fired OC Matt Cahadas. Relatively young.
RE: What hasn't been mentioned in this ENTIRE thread  
RetroJint : 11/28/2023 5:33 pm : link
In comment 16306359 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
is that Neal was being asked to pass set differently than in college.
I see a guy thinking too much instead of just aggressively playing. When you think too much, you play MUCH slower. Thus his feet and his technique in general look slow, disorganize, it exacerbates his balance issues.
I've believed (and still do) that if they can have enough patience with him, he will eventually "get it" and become a VERY good tackle.
Of course, he has to get on the field and STAY THERE for that to happen!


Where did you come up with this ? If anything Willie Anderson changed his foot work . As far as making him think too much , he can’t even handle a rudimentary end-tackle game . Against pressure fronts , he misses his guy more than any starting ROT I’ve seen on the Giants in years . And the Edge can get around him off the snap without dint of a second move . It’s been brutal .

My best friend keeps telling me he’s a run blocker . This is a passing league now . I know what Schoen said. I think he was searching for a reason to continue to believe. I don’t anymore . And regardless of what the VP-GM says I think his best shot is playing next to Thomas .
He has talent  
Mattman : 11/28/2023 5:51 pm : link
If Bobby Johnson is here next year I will turn on this regime. I don’t think he will be and we will see the ol and especially Neal improve.
I've had my suspicions about Bobby Johnson since they hired him.  
Red Dog : 11/28/2023 5:52 pm : link
Buffalo's OL was not very good when he was there, either. Not a coincidence?
Neal will instantly improve  
Earl the goat : 11/28/2023 6:00 pm : link
With a new OLine coach
A better right guard
And run smash mouth football to the right side. IE Barkley doesn’t run smash mouth
Biggest issue with Neal is in his Head  
kelly : 11/28/2023 6:19 pm : link
He makes the same mistakes over and over again, rarely gets to his third slide step, seams like he panics and lunges right before he should be taking his third step, it's almost like a baseball player that constantly double clutches before he throws the ball.

I also wonder if he is a bit soft.
didn't he decline the agility drills at the combine and pro day?  
markky : 11/28/2023 6:40 pm : link
i watched him a lot when he was in college and was impressed, but i'm just a fan, not an expert. i'm hoping Schoen is either saying he's improving and they can get him to be a quality T or he's saying that Neal's been dealing with some injuries which have held him back. I'll trust Schoen on this but we can't afford another Flowers situation.
RE: The funny thing is  
Matt M. : 11/28/2023 8:12 pm : link
In comment 16306303 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
I went back and watched Neal tape from Alabama a few weeks ago

He looks like a different dude - completely different. If he were in this draft class coming up and I was using the college tape again - it would be Neal in the discussion for OT1 (and there are two really good ones here)

The balance problem was worrisome - but it got worse, not better. His technique and bend are so different, too.
Thanks for this. Sounds like Eric may be on to something and maybe Schoen's comments were a veiled shot at coaching.
 
ryanmkeane : 11/28/2023 8:38 pm : link
Just because Neal was awesome in college and a clear top 10 pick with no blatantly obvious flags doesn’t mean he can’t suck in the pros. Happens all the time.

Hopefully he’ll snap out of it and become good - but we are overthinking this.
 
christian : 11/28/2023 10:43 pm : link
Neal was objectively terrible last year. Who knows what to make of this year with the injuries, but no one should be surprised.
It's not just Evan Neal either.  
mittenedman : 11/28/2023 10:56 pm : link
Bobby Johnson has not appeared to develop anybody here.

*Andrew Thomas was an All Pro-calibre player before he got here.

*Josh Ezeudu and Marcus McKethan look terrible so far. Ezeudu failing to grab a starting G spot has to be a disappointment.

*Glowinski's play has taken a nosedive to the point he isn't even in consideration for playing time on a bad OL.

*Lemieux looked worse than ever.

*Phillips made some comments about how much better the coaching was in PHI when he got back here.

*Mayfield looked completely incapable of playing football when they needed him.

*And now - Schmitz, who BJ was very high on during the draft process. Looks OK, we'll see. Hoping he improves.

And obviously, they look clueless as a unit.
RE: It's not just Evan Neal either.  
Eric on Li : 11/28/2023 11:08 pm : link
In comment 16306892 mittenedman said:
Quote:
Bobby Johnson has not appeared to develop anybody here.

*Andrew Thomas was an All Pro-calibre player before he got here.

*Josh Ezeudu and Marcus McKethan look terrible so far. Ezeudu failing to grab a starting G spot has to be a disappointment.

*Glowinski's play has taken a nosedive to the point he isn't even in consideration for playing time on a bad OL.

*Lemieux looked worse than ever.

*Phillips made some comments about how much better the coaching was in PHI when he got back here.

*Mayfield looked completely incapable of playing football when they needed him.

*And now - Schmitz, who BJ was very high on during the draft process. Looks OK, we'll see. Hoping he improves.

And obviously, they look clueless as a unit.


adding to the list, his hand picked center conversion "dirtbag" didn't convert well, then bounced to SF for a league minimum backup role.

activating mckethan from PUP with 0 reps and giving lemiuex/peart roster spots over Tyre Phillips continues to be the biggest wtf was he watching all summer? Phillips has been better than Neal for the most part.

but hey, at least bobby talked the talk of a tough guy. if he's back next year ill be shocked.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The funny thing is  
santacruzom : 11/29/2023 10:51 pm : link
In comment 16306545 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 16306316 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


I think there is a psychology component here that will go deeper than us watching tape. Neal is tripping trying to tie his shoes. I think he had some early struggles and did not respond to adversity like a player needs to.



Indulging myself in some uninformed armchair psychology here....a guy like Neal has likely, due to his significant edge in size and talent, not faced much likelihood of failure in his career prior to the NFL. By all accounts, he's a hard worker, so effort isn't the issue. Athletic ability isn't the issue. It might simply be that he's too wound up and afraid of making mistakes, and that's keeping him from just going out and playing.


Maybe he he's suffering from some bizarro version of the David Carr "gunshy from being sacked" issue -- he's been damaged by all the sacks Daniel Jones has been at fault for.
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