thing with that crew who just trashes Jones w/o any consideration to all the variables around him that did have a big impact this season is that they don't even understand how the position works imv. To not even acknowledge the reality of what the situation was in most of the games he played this season is pretty weak imv.
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.
So Jones’ critics don’t have enough football knowledge to understand that the Giants offense isn’t any good or how even what a QB is responsible for? And they are only using these 5 games this season to base their criticism on? That they disregard everything you find important?
The kid is hard worker and by all accounts his teammates like him. But the game that completely soured me on him was the Seahawks game this year. I understand that conditions weren’t favorable, but he looked like a train wreck in that game. Not taking shots downfield, holding the ball too long and taking unnecessary sacks, the red zone INT. This is suppose to be your franchise $40 million QB, and he did not lift up the team. You can argue that he never has. It’s time to move on. The extension was mistake. The faster we move on, the better for the franchise as a whole.
thing with that crew who just trashes Jones w/o any consideration to all the variables around him that did have a big impact this season is that they don't even understand how the position works imv. To not even acknowledge the reality of what the situation was in most of the games he played this season is pretty weak imv.
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.
This right here is why it is absolutely impossible to have discussions around here. You guys simply don’t know how to read or are just willfully turning on your selective memories. Literally EVERYONE has acknowledged that there are other issues on the team. EVERYONE has stated that the OL has sucked balls. Yet, here you are claiming they refuse to acknowledge “consideration to all the variables around him”. Learn how to read. And after you read, let it sink in.
Then you say people that see the flaws in Jones’ game don’t understand how the position works. That’s precious. Because the opposite is actually true. It is YOU and the constant defenders that have no clue how the position works. That is incredibly obvious. Blaming everyone on the planet except for the QB for 4 1/2 years of mostly poor QB play is amateur hour. There has been plenty of people that have broken down videos using All 22 to try to explain to the less knowledgeable that try to explain to you where Jones is contributing to the disaster. But instead of listening, you find reasons to dismiss those that are breaking things down for you. It’s easier to simply blame the OL every time there is a sack. Or the coaching. Or the GM. Or the owner. Or the weather. Or the food vendors.
So Jones’ critics don’t have enough football knowledge to understand that the Giants offense isn’t any good or how even what a QB is responsible for? And they are only using these 5 games this season to base their criticism on? That they disregard everything you find important?
And you think this is interesting?
Yeah, it's a disingenuous comment by LOS and that ilk.
Everyone I respect acknowledges that the entire offense has looked broken. That there are issues beyond Jones.
I believe, however, you can still judge Jones's play despite the other issues. Alas, he demonstrates he's not a force multiplier player and, instead, needs too many other parts to be in place to potentially be more successful.
Meanwhile, the other side of the debate takes the position that until everything around Jones is better, making an assessment on Jones is unfair. Thus, he needs even more time...
So Jones’ critics don’t have enough football knowledge to understand that the Giants offense isn’t any good or how even what a QB is responsible for? And they are only using these 5 games this season to base their criticism on? That they disregard everything you find important?
And you think this is interesting?
Yeah, it's a disingenuous comment by LOS and that ilk.
Everyone I respect acknowledges that the entire offense has looked broken. That there are issues beyond Jones.
I believe, however, you can still judge Jones's play despite the other issues. Alas, he demonstrates he's not a force multiplier player and, instead, needs too many other parts to be in place to potentially be more successful.
Meanwhile, the other side of the debate takes the position that until everything around Jones is better, making an assessment on Jones is unfair. Thus, he needs even more time...
And around and around we go...
I think that's been the important sticking point for a couple of years now, but especially leading up to and now after the big contract. I don't disagree that Jones could be a good QB with a much better situation. In particular, the OL would be key. However, I think a true franchise QB elevates this team to an 8-10 win team as is. There have been plays to be made as a PASSER that he just misses. He doesn't have the skills processing the D before or after the snap. Any fucking QB should have moderate success with all day to throw and a dynamic WR. But, that isn't the realistic outcome.
I also hate the constant bashing of our receivers. I happen to think we have the talent to be a good offense. Hyatt is far better than we have used him as and Robinson could be a dynamic complement. They also have one of the top 5 RBs in Barkley. There are weapons; there isn't the alpha dog QB to get them the ball.
Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
the OL, that unit likely becomes about average, because that is how bad it is right now. With an average to good OL, I don't see Jones elevating this team to more than 10 wins. His ceiling is about that without an elite team around him. How is that an elite QB?
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
the OL, that unit likely becomes about average, because that is how bad it is right now. With an average to good OL, I don't see Jones elevating this team to more than 10 wins. His ceiling is about that without an elite team around him. How is that an elite QB?
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a quarterback who is actually better than a backup level talent. And if I have to settle for a backup level talent at quarterback, I want to allocate as little cap as possible to the position and devote it elsewhere until I find my elite quarterback. You know, precisely the opposite of what the Giants have been doing for the past five years.
Will things change? Can Mara and Schoen admit that DJ is a backup level talent that should never have been drafted at six and certainly should never have been given anything but the franchise tag as a second contract? Judging from the entrenched positions of many on this thread, I doubt it. Denial and self-preservation are very powerful allies in the war on common sense...
the OL, that unit likely becomes about average, because that is how bad it is right now. With an average to good OL, I don't see Jones elevating this team to more than 10 wins. His ceiling is about that without an elite team around him. How is that an elite QB?
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a quarterback who is actually better than a backup level talent. And if I have to settle for a backup level talent at quarterback, I want to allocate as little cap as possible to the position and devote it elsewhere until I find my elite quarterback. You know, precisely the opposite of what the Giants have been doing for the past five years.
Will things change? Can Mara and Schoen admit that DJ is a backup level talent that should never have been drafted at six and certainly should never have been given anything but the franchise tag as a second contract? Judging from the entrenched positions of many on this thread, I doubt it. Denial and self-preservation are very powerful allies in the war on common sense...
One, I do think Jones is better than backup level talent. He just isn't a better than average starter. But, his problem isn't talent. It's his inability to read the D before the snap, read the D after the snap, and process what he's seeing.
Two, the QB you describe is right there for the taking and they might be in position to grab one now.
the OL, that unit likely becomes about average, because that is how bad it is right now. With an average to good OL, I don't see Jones elevating this team to more than 10 wins. His ceiling is about that without an elite team around him. How is that an elite QB?
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a quarterback who is actually better than a backup level talent. And if I have to settle for a backup level talent at quarterback, I want to allocate as little cap as possible to the position and devote it elsewhere until I find my elite quarterback. You know, precisely the opposite of what the Giants have been doing for the past five years.
Will things change? Can Mara and Schoen admit that DJ is a backup level talent that should never have been drafted at six and certainly should never have been given anything but the franchise tag as a second contract? Judging from the entrenched positions of many on this thread, I doubt it. Denial and self-preservation are very powerful allies in the war on common sense...
One, I do think Jones is better than backup level talent. He just isn't a better than average starter. But, his problem isn't talent. It's his inability to read the D before the snap, read the D after the snap, and process what he's seeing.
Two, the QB you describe is right there for the taking and they might be in position to grab one now.
By far the most important attribute as it relates to talent for a starting NFL quarterback is his brain. Sy knew this before DJ was drafted. To say someone has elite physical skills without an elite performing brain is to say he is at best a backup level talent in the NFL.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
By far the most important attribute as it relates to talent for a starting NFL quarterback is his brain. Sy knew this before DJ was drafted. To say someone has elite physical skills without an elite performing brain is to say he is at best a backup level talent in the NFL.
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
So I do have a serious question for you guys that maybe could actually advance the debate. Who is this franchise QB that the Giants are dumping Jones for?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
And PS I am still waiting for someone to tell me who this 'smart' franchise QB is that we should be dumping Jones for.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
He won’t admit why. We all know why he made those comments about those two specifically. And it also explains his love affair with Daniel Jones…
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
He won’t admit why. We all know why he made those comments about those two specifically. And it also explains his love affair with Daniel Jones…
Are you dense man! I just told you why. They are great QBs in large part because of their exceptional athleticism. As pure passers they're barely top ten guys.
But I see what you guys are doing here. Deflection, change the subject, attack when you can't answer the basic question here.
Still no one will provide an answer to the question: Who is the franchise QB the Giants are going to replace Jones with? I am being to think is it possible that the Giants don't actually have a replacement in the room yet. And what rational football team anywhere gets rid of the guy who gives them the best chance to win games when they don't have anyone better in the room.
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
And PS I am still waiting for someone to tell me who this 'smart' franchise QB is that we should be dumping Jones for.
Do you have the same reaction when you watch Josh Allen?
As for replacing Jones, nobody has a certain answer for that. What is certain is now is the time to get into the process of finding that franchise QB.
And that make take a while...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
He won’t admit why. We all know why he made those comments about those two specifically. And it also explains his love affair with Daniel Jones…
Are you dense man! I just told you why. They are great QBs in large part because of their exceptional athleticism. As pure passers they're barely top ten guys.
But I see what you guys are doing here. Deflection, change the subject, attack when you can't answer the basic question here.
Still no one will provide an answer to the question: Who is the franchise QB the Giants are going to replace Jones with? I am being to think is it possible that the Giants don't actually have a replacement in the room yet. And what rational football team anywhere gets rid of the guy who gives them the best chance to win games when they don't have anyone better in the room.
You specifically said, and I quote:
“The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.”
You literally accused them of not being the brightest bulbs in the QB room. That has NOTHING to do with their athleticism. YOU are the one deflecting p, not us. You said it. Own it.
And there's posters here insulting his intelligence, and those same people probably wouldn't rather have him at QB than Jones.
There are people who assume Lamar Jackson is stupid because he is black, comes from an economically distressed area and has a speech impediment. And many of these same people assume Daniel Jones is intelligent because he's tall, white, good looking, comes from an affluent family, and looks like a wholesome boy.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
Why would their athleticism mean they weren’t the “brightest bulbs”? One has nothing to do with the other. That isn’t complicated.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Let’s the draft falls a way that we don’t get one of the big three.
I would trade next years 1 to get one, so do not strawman this into claiming I want to gooble Jones’ sac.
But, it might not happen.
Who is our trade back up into the first guy?
BW?
Terps?
Trying to move the discussion forward.
I have no idea what it means to gooble someones sac but it certainly doesn’t sound like a pleasant experience. Good on you for drawing a line in that sand.
I would guess Penix and Nix would potentially be trade up candidates into the late 1st but I’m not sure I’m thrilled with giving up picks to move up for either, personally. I guess it just depends on the asking price and whether Schoen values the 5th year option enough to make that move
I think you spoke for the large majority of us who have been following the Giants for decades, 365 days a year.
I respectfully request that this thread be re-pinned and remain pinned until after the draft to serve as a BBI historical narrative of this crucial crossroads time in Giants history.
I've seen and die hard rooted the entire NFL Super Bowl era of NY Giants football, I find the current on-field ineptitude caused by, in my opinion, the football incompetence of John, Chris, and Tim (McDonnell) Mara more disheartening than Wellington's 'lost weekend' from 1965-1981.
Tom Coughlin's last winning season was 2012. Since 2013 the Giants regular season record is 71 wins and 118 losses and 1 tie. That's a winning percentage below 38%, or viewed differently, the Giants have lost 62% of their games since 2013.
Over the past 11 seasons, including the current one, the Giants have played in three playoff games and won only one.
If this season continues to play out the way the first 12 games have gone it will be the 8th time in 11 years that the Giants will lose 10 games or more. Going back further to 2010, 2016 is the only year the Giants won double digit games.
Since 2013, the Giants have been outscored by their opponents in 10 out of 11 seasons, in four of those seasons, including the present one, by over 100 points. Since 2013, the Giants have been outscored by an unfathomable 774 points.
I typed out the above numbers to highlight the absurdity of downplaying ownerships role in this second “Mara lost weekend” and defending the Mara family's management of the team. I think anyone who endorses or justifies this level of mismanagement, unless they’re on the Giants payroll, is either blindly loyal or has Stockholm syndrome.
How much losing is it going to take for the Mara family to let the football professionals they’ve hired control the roster with total autonomy. Including, without ownership communicating their player favoritism through the media. I think that undermines and puts fan base pressure on the GM and Head Coach, and spins the wheel of firing and hiring, after a one-year honeymoon season.
Between 2013 and 2023, the Giants have cycled through 5 Head Coaches (6 if we include Steve Spagnuolo's mop up during McAdoo's 2nd year), 3 General Managers, and only 2 starting Quarterbacks: Eli Manning from 2013-2018 and Daniel Jones from 2019-2023. The only constants during this entire period of laughing stock losing have been the 3 Mara's. Ownership has directly and indirectly mandated who the starting QBs will be even though they’ve been outscored by 774 points.
If next season starts with Daniel Jones, Tommy Devito and Tyrod Taylor back on a cheap contract as the three Giants QBs I think we're going to see another Head Coach get fired and possibly the GM too.
In the vast cosmos of unsolved mysteries, the inner workings of 1925 Giants Way between the first and second year of a NY Giants Head Coach's tenure since 2016 might not rank high in importance. However, it’s at the top of my personal list. If anyone has a plausible theory, please share it. I can’t figure it out. What the hell happens in that building in the off season?
This is a wild stat and almost seems impossible given the last decade:
Quote:
Between 2013 and 2023, the Giants have cycled through 5 Head Coaches (6 if we include Steve Spagnuolo's mop up during McAdoo's 2nd year), 3 General Managers, and only 2 starting Quarterbacks: Eli Manning from 2013-2018 and Daniel Jones from 2019-2023.
I don't think the poster is even aware of his inner truth, or that he put it on display for all to see.
I must admit, that think like is playing a part in all this never crossed my mind. I thought that kind of thinking was left back in the 90's.
To attempt to tear down Hurts and Jackson from being one-note running QB dummies with limited passing abilities, when that pretty much describes Daniel Jones.
That's been one of the grand ironies of the Jones era, as a matter of fact. Duke-educated QB groomed by the Manning-guru Cutcliffe, and his on-field intelligence is probably his worst trait. A rookie center has to call protections instead of him, and I'll never forget Jones standing there getting hit by Witherspoon like a lemming against Seattle instead of the recognizing the corner blitz and throwing to the hot read.
RE: It's disappointing but 20th and 21st century sports
fandom have revealed itself to be somewhat of a mirror of current American sociology and society.
Sometimes when objective facts and the eye ball test don't match up with what's in a persons heart. They say their quiet part out loud.
While it's disheartening to see that sort of thinking on these threads, BBI is a really large community so it isn't shocking - I AM proud to see people immediately stepped up and called out the racism.
After the Giants drafted Barkley, 2020 was the logical year to draft QB.
Quote:
Ari Meirov
@MySportsUpdate
It is so rare for this to happen, but it sure looks like all 5 of top QBs taken in the 2020 NFL Draft are franchise quarterbacks.
• Joe Burrow: No. 1 pick
• Tua Tagovailoa: No. 5 pick
• Justin Herbert: No. 6 pick
• Jordan Love: No. 26 pick
• Jalen Hurts: No. 53 pick
Let’s the draft falls a way that we don’t get one of the big three.
I would trade next years 1 to get one, so do not strawman this into claiming I want to gooble Jones’ sac.
But, it might not happen.
Who is our trade back up into the first guy?
BW?
Terps?
Trying to move the discussion forward.
I have no idea what it means to gooble someones sac but it certainly doesn’t sound like a pleasant experience. Good on you for drawing a line in that sand.
I would guess Penix and Nix would potentially be trade up candidates into the late 1st but I’m not sure I’m thrilled with giving up picks to move up for either, personally. I guess it just depends on the asking price and whether Schoen values the 5th year option enough to make that move
I purchased an IPad Pro 12.9. I will hopefully avoid such typos in the future. However, my unintentional gaffes are as much the result of speed and lack of caring as posting on my phone.
I live in the PNW and my daughter attends OSU. I would not move up for either and would wait until 2. I actually think some of the later prospects will make better pros. Pen is vs Nix classic debate. Pen has a cannon but hate the mechanics. Nix is a machine but lacks the drive to push the deep out IMV
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.
So Jones’ critics don’t have enough football knowledge to understand that the Giants offense isn’t any good or how even what a QB is responsible for? And they are only using these 5 games this season to base their criticism on? That they disregard everything you find important?
And you think this is interesting?
Quote:
thing with that crew who just trashes Jones w/o any consideration to all the variables around him that did have a big impact this season is that they don't even understand how the position works imv. To not even acknowledge the reality of what the situation was in most of the games he played this season is pretty weak imv.
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.
This right here is why it is absolutely impossible to have discussions around here. You guys simply don’t know how to read or are just willfully turning on your selective memories. Literally EVERYONE has acknowledged that there are other issues on the team. EVERYONE has stated that the OL has sucked balls. Yet, here you are claiming they refuse to acknowledge “consideration to all the variables around him”. Learn how to read. And after you read, let it sink in.
Then you say people that see the flaws in Jones’ game don’t understand how the position works. That’s precious. Because the opposite is actually true. It is YOU and the constant defenders that have no clue how the position works. That is incredibly obvious. Blaming everyone on the planet except for the QB for 4 1/2 years of mostly poor QB play is amateur hour. There has been plenty of people that have broken down videos using All 22 to try to explain to the less knowledgeable that try to explain to you where Jones is contributing to the disaster. But instead of listening, you find reasons to dismiss those that are breaking things down for you. It’s easier to simply blame the OL every time there is a sack. Or the coaching. Or the GM. Or the owner. Or the weather. Or the food vendors.
Very well stated Shock!
So Jones’ critics don’t have enough football knowledge to understand that the Giants offense isn’t any good or how even what a QB is responsible for? And they are only using these 5 games this season to base their criticism on? That they disregard everything you find important?
And you think this is interesting?
Yeah, it's a disingenuous comment by LOS and that ilk.
Everyone I respect acknowledges that the entire offense has looked broken. That there are issues beyond Jones.
I believe, however, you can still judge Jones's play despite the other issues. Alas, he demonstrates he's not a force multiplier player and, instead, needs too many other parts to be in place to potentially be more successful.
Meanwhile, the other side of the debate takes the position that until everything around Jones is better, making an assessment on Jones is unfair. Thus, he needs even more time...
And around and around we go...
Quote:
So Jones’ critics don’t have enough football knowledge to understand that the Giants offense isn’t any good or how even what a QB is responsible for? And they are only using these 5 games this season to base their criticism on? That they disregard everything you find important?
And you think this is interesting?
Yeah, it's a disingenuous comment by LOS and that ilk.
Everyone I respect acknowledges that the entire offense has looked broken. That there are issues beyond Jones.
I believe, however, you can still judge Jones's play despite the other issues. Alas, he demonstrates he's not a force multiplier player and, instead, needs too many other parts to be in place to potentially be more successful.
Meanwhile, the other side of the debate takes the position that until everything around Jones is better, making an assessment on Jones is unfair. Thus, he needs even more time...
And around and around we go...
I also hate the constant bashing of our receivers. I happen to think we have the talent to be a good offense. Hyatt is far better than we have used him as and Robinson could be a dynamic complement. They also have one of the top 5 RBs in Barkley. There are weapons; there isn't the alpha dog QB to get them the ball.
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a quarterback who is actually better than a backup level talent. And if I have to settle for a backup level talent at quarterback, I want to allocate as little cap as possible to the position and devote it elsewhere until I find my elite quarterback. You know, precisely the opposite of what the Giants have been doing for the past five years.
Will things change? Can Mara and Schoen admit that DJ is a backup level talent that should never have been drafted at six and certainly should never have been given anything but the franchise tag as a second contract? Judging from the entrenched positions of many on this thread, I doubt it. Denial and self-preservation are very powerful allies in the war on common sense...
Do you notice the symbolism of Jones sitting next to the Waste Management can? ;)
Quote:
the OL, that unit likely becomes about average, because that is how bad it is right now. With an average to good OL, I don't see Jones elevating this team to more than 10 wins. His ceiling is about that without an elite team around him. How is that an elite QB?
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a quarterback who is actually better than a backup level talent. And if I have to settle for a backup level talent at quarterback, I want to allocate as little cap as possible to the position and devote it elsewhere until I find my elite quarterback. You know, precisely the opposite of what the Giants have been doing for the past five years.
Will things change? Can Mara and Schoen admit that DJ is a backup level talent that should never have been drafted at six and certainly should never have been given anything but the franchise tag as a second contract? Judging from the entrenched positions of many on this thread, I doubt it. Denial and self-preservation are very powerful allies in the war on common sense...
Two, the QB you describe is right there for the taking and they might be in position to grab one now.
However, I think a true franchise QB elevates this team to an 8-10 win team as is.
I'm sorry I just couldn't resist. You mean sort of like last year.
Quote:
In comment 16310923 Matt M. said:
Quote:
the OL, that unit likely becomes about average, because that is how bad it is right now. With an average to good OL, I don't see Jones elevating this team to more than 10 wins. His ceiling is about that without an elite team around him. How is that an elite QB?
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a quarterback who is actually better than a backup level talent. And if I have to settle for a backup level talent at quarterback, I want to allocate as little cap as possible to the position and devote it elsewhere until I find my elite quarterback. You know, precisely the opposite of what the Giants have been doing for the past five years.
Will things change? Can Mara and Schoen admit that DJ is a backup level talent that should never have been drafted at six and certainly should never have been given anything but the franchise tag as a second contract? Judging from the entrenched positions of many on this thread, I doubt it. Denial and self-preservation are very powerful allies in the war on common sense...
One, I do think Jones is better than backup level talent. He just isn't a better than average starter. But, his problem isn't talent. It's his inability to read the D before the snap, read the D after the snap, and process what he's seeing.
Two, the QB you describe is right there for the taking and they might be in position to grab one now.
By far the most important attribute as it relates to talent for a starting NFL quarterback is his brain. Sy knew this before DJ was drafted. To say someone has elite physical skills without an elite performing brain is to say he is at best a backup level talent in the NFL.
By far the most important attribute as it relates to talent for a starting NFL quarterback is his brain. Sy knew this before DJ was drafted. To say someone has elite physical skills without an elite performing brain is to say he is at best a backup level talent in the NFL.
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
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Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
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Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
And PS I am still waiting for someone to tell me who this 'smart' franchise QB is that we should be dumping Jones for.
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In comment 16311139 Snorkels said:
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Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
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In comment 16311140 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16311139 Snorkels said:
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Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
He won’t admit why. We all know why he made those comments about those two specifically. And it also explains his love affair with Daniel Jones…
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In comment 16311148 Snorkels said:
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In comment 16311140 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16311139 Snorkels said:
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Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
He won’t admit why. We all know why he made those comments about those two specifically. And it also explains his love affair with Daniel Jones…
Are you dense man! I just told you why. They are great QBs in large part because of their exceptional athleticism. As pure passers they're barely top ten guys.
But I see what you guys are doing here. Deflection, change the subject, attack when you can't answer the basic question here.
Still no one will provide an answer to the question: Who is the franchise QB the Giants are going to replace Jones with? I am being to think is it possible that the Giants don't actually have a replacement in the room yet. And what rational football team anywhere gets rid of the guy who gives them the best chance to win games when they don't have anyone better in the room.
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
And PS I am still waiting for someone to tell me who this 'smart' franchise QB is that we should be dumping Jones for.
Do you have the same reaction when you watch Josh Allen?
As for replacing Jones, nobody has a certain answer for that. What is certain is now is the time to get into the process of finding that franchise QB.
And that make take a while...
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In comment 16311154 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 16311148 Snorkels said:
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In comment 16311140 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16311139 Snorkels said:
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Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
He won’t admit why. We all know why he made those comments about those two specifically. And it also explains his love affair with Daniel Jones…
Are you dense man! I just told you why. They are great QBs in large part because of their exceptional athleticism. As pure passers they're barely top ten guys.
But I see what you guys are doing here. Deflection, change the subject, attack when you can't answer the basic question here.
Still no one will provide an answer to the question: Who is the franchise QB the Giants are going to replace Jones with? I am being to think is it possible that the Giants don't actually have a replacement in the room yet. And what rational football team anywhere gets rid of the guy who gives them the best chance to win games when they don't have anyone better in the room.
You specifically said, and I quote:
“The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.”
You literally accused them of not being the brightest bulbs in the QB room. That has NOTHING to do with their athleticism. YOU are the one deflecting p, not us. You said it. Own it.
There are people who assume Lamar Jackson is stupid because he is black, comes from an economically distressed area and has a speech impediment. And many of these same people assume Daniel Jones is intelligent because he's tall, white, good looking, comes from an affluent family, and looks like a wholesome boy.
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In comment 16311129 Snorkels said:
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Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
But Jones went to Duke and he's...
Well, you know...
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You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
But Jones went to Duke and he's...
Well, you know...
That’s fucking appalling, dude. Seriously. There is no place for that
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In comment 16311240 BrettNYG10 said:
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You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
But Jones went to Duke and he's...
Well, you know...
That’s fucking appalling, dude. Seriously. There is no place for that
Try to keep up with the pace of conversation.
Lamar is a genius on the football field. And Jones has been unmasked as a bit of a dummy.
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In comment 16311240 BrettNYG10 said:
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You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
But Jones went to Duke and he's...
Well, you know...
That’s fucking appalling, dude. Seriously. There is no place for that
Cool, take it up with Snorkels. He's the one with the dog whistle.
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In comment 16311129 Snorkels said:
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Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
Why would their athleticism mean they weren’t the “brightest bulbs”? One has nothing to do with the other. That isn’t complicated.
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In comment 16311254 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16311240 BrettNYG10 said:
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You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
But Jones went to Duke and he's...
Well, you know...
That’s fucking appalling, dude. Seriously. There is no place for that
Cool, take it up with Snorkels. He's the one with the dog whistle.
Not a dog whistle, more like a bullhorn.
I would trade next years 1 to get one, so do not strawman this into claiming I want to gooble Jones’ sac.
But, it might not happen.
Who is our trade back up into the first guy?
BW?
Terps?
Trying to move the discussion forward.
I would trade next years 1 to get one, so do not strawman this into claiming I want to gooble Jones’ sac.
But, it might not happen.
Who is our trade back up into the first guy?
BW?
Terps?
Trying to move the discussion forward.
I have no idea what it means to gooble someones sac but it certainly doesn’t sound like a pleasant experience. Good on you for drawing a line in that sand.
I would guess Penix and Nix would potentially be trade up candidates into the late 1st but I’m not sure I’m thrilled with giving up picks to move up for either, personally. I guess it just depends on the asking price and whether Schoen values the 5th year option enough to make that move
I respectfully request that this thread be re-pinned and remain pinned until after the draft to serve as a BBI historical narrative of this crucial crossroads time in Giants history.
I've seen and die hard rooted the entire NFL Super Bowl era of NY Giants football, I find the current on-field ineptitude caused by, in my opinion, the football incompetence of John, Chris, and Tim (McDonnell) Mara more disheartening than Wellington's 'lost weekend' from 1965-1981.
Tom Coughlin's last winning season was 2012. Since 2013 the Giants regular season record is 71 wins and 118 losses and 1 tie. That's a winning percentage below 38%, or viewed differently, the Giants have lost 62% of their games since 2013.
Over the past 11 seasons, including the current one, the Giants have played in three playoff games and won only one.
If this season continues to play out the way the first 12 games have gone it will be the 8th time in 11 years that the Giants will lose 10 games or more. Going back further to 2010, 2016 is the only year the Giants won double digit games.
Since 2013, the Giants have been outscored by their opponents in 10 out of 11 seasons, in four of those seasons, including the present one, by over 100 points. Since 2013, the Giants have been outscored by an unfathomable 774 points.
I typed out the above numbers to highlight the absurdity of downplaying ownerships role in this second “Mara lost weekend” and defending the Mara family's management of the team. I think anyone who endorses or justifies this level of mismanagement, unless they’re on the Giants payroll, is either blindly loyal or has Stockholm syndrome.
How much losing is it going to take for the Mara family to let the football professionals they’ve hired control the roster with total autonomy. Including, without ownership communicating their player favoritism through the media. I think that undermines and puts fan base pressure on the GM and Head Coach, and spins the wheel of firing and hiring, after a one-year honeymoon season.
Between 2013 and 2023, the Giants have cycled through 5 Head Coaches (6 if we include Steve Spagnuolo's mop up during McAdoo's 2nd year), 3 General Managers, and only 2 starting Quarterbacks: Eli Manning from 2013-2018 and Daniel Jones from 2019-2023. The only constants during this entire period of laughing stock losing have been the 3 Mara's. Ownership has directly and indirectly mandated who the starting QBs will be even though they’ve been outscored by 774 points.
If next season starts with Daniel Jones, Tommy Devito and Tyrod Taylor back on a cheap contract as the three Giants QBs I think we're going to see another Head Coach get fired and possibly the GM too.
In the vast cosmos of unsolved mysteries, the inner workings of 1925 Giants Way between the first and second year of a NY Giants Head Coach's tenure since 2016 might not rank high in importance. However, it’s at the top of my personal list. If anyone has a plausible theory, please share it. I can’t figure it out. What the hell happens in that building in the off season?
2 starting QB's.
I must admit, that think like is playing a part in all this never crossed my mind. I thought that kind of thinking was left back in the 90's.
Makes me wonder, just how naive I've been.
Sometimes when objective facts and the eye ball test don't match up with what's in a persons heart. They say their quiet part out loud.
That's been one of the grand ironies of the Jones era, as a matter of fact. Duke-educated QB groomed by the Manning-guru Cutcliffe, and his on-field intelligence is probably his worst trait. A rookie center has to call protections instead of him, and I'll never forget Jones standing there getting hit by Witherspoon like a lemming against Seattle instead of the recognizing the corner blitz and throwing to the hot read.
Sometimes when objective facts and the eye ball test don't match up with what's in a persons heart. They say their quiet part out loud.
Some good eggs here.
@MySportsUpdate
It is so rare for this to happen, but it sure looks like all 5 of top QBs taken in the 2020 NFL Draft are franchise quarterbacks.
• Joe Burrow: No. 1 pick
• Tua Tagovailoa: No. 5 pick
• Justin Herbert: No. 6 pick
• Jordan Love: No. 26 pick
• Jalen Hurts: No. 53 pick
5/5 🎯
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Let’s the draft falls a way that we don’t get one of the big three.
I would trade next years 1 to get one, so do not strawman this into claiming I want to gooble Jones’ sac.
But, it might not happen.
Who is our trade back up into the first guy?
BW?
Terps?
Trying to move the discussion forward.
I have no idea what it means to gooble someones sac but it certainly doesn’t sound like a pleasant experience. Good on you for drawing a line in that sand.
I would guess Penix and Nix would potentially be trade up candidates into the late 1st but I’m not sure I’m thrilled with giving up picks to move up for either, personally. I guess it just depends on the asking price and whether Schoen values the 5th year option enough to make that move
I live in the PNW and my daughter attends OSU. I would not move up for either and would wait until 2. I actually think some of the later prospects will make better pros. Pen is vs Nix classic debate. Pen has a cannon but hate the mechanics. Nix is a machine but lacks the drive to push the deep out IMV
i
Right up there with the Germans and Pearl Harbour.