How do Schoen and Daboll feel about the REST of the roster? If they feel they are "close" then it absolutely makes sense to somehow try and get "their guy" THIS YEAR in the draft.
If they feel they aren't that close after further evaluation - then I would say the strategy of non QB BPA for your first 3 picks might hold.
Not saying they are totally sold on 1 way or the other right now. But that's what it comes down to for me.
Schoen seems to be nailing some of these picks outside of Neal - jury is out on him obviously. I'd wager that if the Giants end up with the 7th pick, they will not fight to the death to move up for a QB.
Mara side vs. GoTerps side is moot/tiresome at this point. I've always kind of been kind of in the middle. I thought (and still do) that Jones is a good QB, but the Giants are a dumpster fire. OL has been bottom-of-the-league bad his entire tenure. Weapons have been bad. There has been no continuity in coaching. He's on his third coach. The only stability has been in how bad the OL has been: bottom of the league.
But at this point, the injuries have rendered the argument moot. Giants need to move forward and, at the very least, get a young QB to groom. Jones will be here next year because of financial reasons. Even if he plays great, he is IMO only one injury away from a career ender. And until this OL is fixed, the probability of that is high.
Can DeVito be that guy? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd draft one of the top 3 QBs (Williams, Maye, Daniels (my favorite)), or if they are gone, get one in the 2nd round or trade up in the 1st. IMO it's a no-brainer at this point.
Jones cut/traded by the beginning of 2025 season, unless there is a miraculous turnaround. Draft pick and Devito to start 2025 season
Mara side vs. GoTerps side is moot/tiresome at this point. I've always kind of been kind of in the middle. I thought (and still do) that Jones is a good QB, but the Giants are a dumpster fire. OL has been bottom-of-the-league bad his entire tenure. Weapons have been bad. There has been no continuity in coaching. He's on his third coach. The only stability has been in how bad the OL has been: bottom of the league.
But at this point, the injuries have rendered the argument moot. Giants need to move forward and, at the very least, get a young QB to groom. Jones will be here next year because of financial reasons. Even if he plays great, he is IMO only one injury away from a career ender. And until this OL is fixed, the probability of that is high.
Can DeVito be that guy? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd draft one of the top 3 QBs (Williams, Maye, Daniels (my favorite)), or if they are gone, get one in the 2nd round or trade up in the 1st. IMO it's a no-brainer at this point.
Jones cut/traded by the beginning of 2025 season, unless there is a miraculous turnaround. Draft pick and Devito to start 2025 season
Agree with this. Never have been as down on Jones as some but it does not matter now with the neck injuries. Still not sold on DeVito as anything other than a feel good story. Would like to see the Giants draft BPA high this year and try to move back up into the late first round for one of the QBs just below the top 2. This team is so far from complete that just drafting a QB is not going to be the solution. Need at least 2 OL, one DL and likely a TE and S, assuming they lose McKinney.
How do Schoen and Daboll feel about the REST of the roster? If they feel they are "close" then it absolutely makes sense to somehow try and get "their guy" THIS YEAR in the draft.
If they feel they aren't that close after further evaluation - then I would say the strategy of non QB BPA for your first 3 picks might hold.
Not saying they are totally sold on 1 way or the other right now. But that's what it comes down to for me.
Schoen seems to be nailing some of these picks outside of Neal - jury is out on him obviously. I'd wager that if the Giants end up with the 7th pick, they will not fight to the death to move up for a QB.
I agree with your take and to me it’s also do I think Schoen and Daboll are right the guys? I do, and will trust they make the right decisions.
Thing is for me, I don’t see how people can think they’re the right guys but question just about every move. If someone isn’t in the Schoen/Daboll camp I’ve got no problems with their opinions or questioning the moves. It’s the ones who want it both ways I have trouble understanding. Ones who say they’re the right guys but pick them apart every chance they get.
I guess what I’m saying is we’re either all in with them or we’re not. If they’re the guys, trust they’ll get the QB situation right. Whether they draft one, trade for one, sign a vet or still see something in Jones. For me they’re the ones on the inside and I trust they’re the most knowledgeable and informed about it.
Jones is not the answer for all the reasons Eric and others have intelligently
articulated. I see Jones as a place setter for the next QB they draft this year.
Who that will be is above my pay grade. I've seen all the possible first round candidates play on TV this year and lukewarm about all of them.
They have to get one in the first two rounds even if not one of them is a lock to become the franchise QB. DJ is a warrior but at best he is just an average quarterback who I don't believe is capable of leading the team to a Super Bowl win. Schoen and Daboll have to get it right or we are in for many more years of lousy football
an assumption that the fans will be more accepting of getting blown out by Dallas and Philly with a new QB. That will last 5 minutes, if it's even true.
an assumption that the fans will be more accepting of getting blown out by Dallas and Philly with a new QB. That will last 5 minutes, if it's even true.
of this debate. My guess is there will be no winner. It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss or build the roster prioritizing the lines.
It doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks because it is out of our control. The Giants will remain in business irrespective of the decision.
RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
of this debate. My guess is there will be no winner. It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss or build the roster prioritizing the lines.
It doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks because it is out of our control. The Giants will remain in business irrespective of the decision.
I have read this comment several times. How does trying something new at QB set the franchise back?
Maybe if we mortgage a ton of future picks to get a guy. But reality is this franchise can't be set back much lower anyway. We don't score and because of it we don't win enough games to be competitive in the division. We are nowhere.
1. Draft BPA and 2. Do something for the QB room either by draft or FA. They aren't going to stand still and hope. But, that doesn't necessarily mean moving up to draft Williams, Maye or Daniels. But, then again, it could. I think the player they want and what it takes to get him will dictate how they draft more than DJ and his contract.
There's middle ground in the evaluation of his ability.
There's no desperation for picking a QB. IF a decent candidate is staring you in the face on draft day, it would be foolish to pass him up. Whatever power influenced his contract will still support him, but that support has to have diminished this season. There's no point rooting for a team that is not ready to upgrade. But, not taking one doesn't mean the Giants brass/owners are sold on Jones. The cost to move up may be prohibitive, or there may not be a good enough candidate at our original draft spot. No point drafting another Jones just to draft one (I call that the true Go Terps option-take somebody...anybody). That's throwing away a draft pick, or not maximizing talent acquisition. Similar sentiment, but lower cost for taking a flier on a late first, or second round, QB. I think you move up if necessary to get a top choice, but not at any cost.
Too early for this conversation. It's possible that Devito will be on par with a second tier draft candidate by the end of the season if he keeps progressing. This could make him the flier QB, or the gap QB until we're in a better position to draft a replacement. We don't know the draft order, or the QB prospect order.
and playing the "we should have done X" game. If the Giants were so low on Jones coming into last season that they weren't giving him a 5th year option, they should have never even started him and gave the job to Tyrod Taylor. Why? Looking back on it, Jones having a good 2022 was probably the worst thing for the franchise.
After 10 years of poor football the fans would have never went for us moving on from him after not only making the playoffs, but winning a game, so Schoen/Daboll were almost forced to resign him. Add on top of that the fact that our draft position took away the ability to draft a future franchise guy and the FA options such as Carr, weren't options I'd throw long term money at either.
So Jones playing well in 2022 left Schoen in a bad place. He almost had to resign him, but nothing about the contract signaled to me that he was really all that committed to him. As Eric said, the right move would have been to franchise Jones and overpay Saquon, but something tells me that given the players in question, it is likely Mara had some involvement/say in how these negotiations went down.
In Schoen's mind, I think the contract was to give them 2 more years to find "their guy" expecting Jones at least plays adequately. I don't think anyone, including myself, expected how fast things would go downhill to start the season.
With that being said, Joe no longer has 2 more years to replace him, we need someone in place, at least developing, next season. And while I do think by cleaning up the OL and adding a weapon Jones would be an average and capable starter, the fact that he's only made 1 full season out of 5 is the number 1 reason I'd move on from him. You need the leader of your team to be there every week, Jones has not shown he can do that.
As far as I'm concerned its DeVito's team for the rest of the year. And next season will be about developing someone we draft to be our next franchise guy. Jones role with the team going forward will be no more than that of a placeholder if whoever we draft is "developmental". Hopefully he plays well enough in this role to where someone will offer us some draft capital for him after the season.
of the Jones era. I have been more on the side of he lacks weapons, his line stinks, etc. up until the last few weeks.
Seeing an undrafted rookie FA QB come in and play better than your 5th year starting QB making $40M per year is enough evidence that it’s time to move on from Jones. And DeVito has an even worse group to play with than Jones had considering Waller has been out, additional injuries on the line, etc.
Honest question. If Jones were fully healthy right now who would you rather have out there against GB? Remember, it’s a prime time game which I believe Jones has never won. I would rather see DeVito out there myself. I just don’t trust Jones can get the job done.
of the Jones era. I have been more on the side of he lacks weapons, his line stinks, etc. up until the last few weeks.
Seeing an undrafted rookie FA QB come in and play better than your 5th year starting QB making $40M per year is enough evidence that it’s time to move on from Jones. And DeVito has an even worse group to play with than Jones had considering Waller has been out, additional injuries on the line, etc.
Honest question. If Jones were fully healthy right now who would you rather have out there against GB? Remember, it’s a prime time game which I believe Jones has never won. I would rather see DeVito out there myself. I just don’t trust Jones can get the job done.
Beat the Redskins last year, but I see your point.
RE: RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
of this debate. My guess is there will be no winner. It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss or build the roster prioritizing the lines.
It doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks because it is out of our control. The Giants will remain in business irrespective of the decision.
I have read this comment several times. How does trying something new at QB set the franchise back?
Maybe if we mortgage a ton of future picks to get a guy. But reality is this franchise can't be set back much lower anyway. We don't score and because of it we don't win enough games to be competitive in the division. We are nowhere.
yeah I mean seriously - are we saying it can get worse?
I left the Jones side after the Rams game in 2021(?). Awful game. I have had enough of the blank stares at defenses.
I begrudgingly returned midway through last season when it looked like Daboll was getting through to him.
After the Eagles debacle, I started to get uneasy.
Felt better after camp and the one series he played in pre-season
Then reality....
Aside from the 2nd half of the Cardinals game it has been pure crap. The Seattle game was the coup de grace. All the evils reared their ugliness in plain view. A game there for the taking and a rookie DB played Jones like a fool.
No, IMV, Jones should be replaced and gotten rid of ASAP. A new QB (even if Bo Nix in the 2nd) is needed. Someone that can read a defense and get the ball out quickly to defeat the rush/blitz.
I've "tangled" with Terps and bw enough to know I was wrong.
So John Mara (or Bob Papa) if you are reading - do not fight Joe Schoen when he says it is time for a new QB, even if it costs next years #1 to move up. You well remember the plane over Giants Stadium in 1978....it may soon be making another flight!
RE: this may be one of the most (unintentionally?) hilarious sentences
I just really don't understand the intense focus on the QB. This team is not close. This team has not been close for 12 years.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
whether a QB entering his sixth year is the answer. Just think about that - going into his sixth season...
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
ThomasG i think "setting the franchise back" comment is more about forcing a QB pick just to pick one.
I wouldn't think Schoen would do that as he's smarter than that. But saying "we have to get a QB, we just have to take one" could backfire immensely if we draft a QB over an edge or WR group, or hell even OL.
Now, it could work out great if the QB is awesome. But Schoen is not going to take a 2nd tier QB in the first round, IMO.
Mara side vs. GoTerps side is moot/tiresome at this point. I've always kind of been kind of in the middle. I thought (and still do) that Jones is a good QB, but the Giants are a dumpster fire. OL has been bottom-of-the-league bad his entire tenure. Weapons have been bad. There has been no continuity in coaching. He's on his third coach. The only stability has been in how bad the OL has been: bottom of the league.
But at this point, the injuries have rendered the argument moot. Giants need to move forward and, at the very least, get a young QB to groom. Jones will be here next year because of financial reasons. Even if he plays great, he is IMO only one injury away from a career ender. And until this OL is fixed, the probability of that is high.
Can DeVito be that guy? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd draft one of the top 3 QBs (Williams, Maye, Daniels (my favorite)), or if they are gone, get one in the 2nd round or trade up in the 1st. IMO it's a no-brainer at this point.
Jones cut/traded by the beginning of 2025 season, unless there is a miraculous turnaround. Draft pick and Devito to start 2025 season
I just really don't understand the intense focus on the QB. This team is not close. This team has not been close for 12 years.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
I agree. Team has mostly drafted based on "need" and it has backfired. Schoen took Thibodeaux where not a lot of mocks or even fans had him on the radar for our pick at 5. As it turns out, aside from Sauce Gardner and Garrett Wilson (QB driven performance) you could argue he's the best pick from that draft thus far.
RE: this may be one of the most (unintentionally?) hilarious sentences
I've ever read: "Haskins not only flopped in Washington, but he was killed last year."
it was in the history section and that is a pretty sucint history.
i think in general there's a lot of emotion wrapped up in the jones saga but it's still the same simple equation it was in 2022 when they were obviously willing to move on declining the 5yo. when they see a better option they will take it.
the only question is if they see a better option when they are on clock. there wasnt in 2022. i think 2024 will be different.
As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
I would be shocked if they don't make a play for Williams or May. No one is watching the giants except the old guys; the new generation is disinterested. They are a bottom tier team in a top tier market. They need to give old fans a reason to continue to buy tix and new fans a reason to watch. This feels a lot like the year they drafted Eli.
In comment 16308452 Johnny5 said:
[quote I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones. [/quote]
I don't get this.
Is Philly and Dallas going to set the standard and keep playing at that level for five more years with no decline?
I always wondered what their true thoughts were going forward 11 months ago. They had the Barkley issue along with it, which did not help. If they tagged Jones . . . what if he has a good 2023? Then we really have to pay up, so what - at least you know he panned out instead of hoping. He was a hardass with Barkley and gave Jones the "community chest". It was bad in hindsight. I wanted them to tag Jones 9 months ago.
I'm hoping the Williams trade had picking a future QB planned behind the scenes.
...the four wideouts who were supposed to form the heart of the receiving corps – Kenny Golladay, Kadarius Toney, Sterling Shepard, Wan’Dale Robinson – either flamed out or got hurt. The coaches continually had to adjust on the fly, finally finding a run-centric RPO style that seemed to suit Jones well and make reads simpler for him.
I know this offense is extremely difficult for receivers to learn. Look at what Hodgins said about it. Why is it that we always assume the adjusted offense was to simplify reads for DJ as much as simplifying reads/routes/options for the new receivers? This position is regularly stated and accepted as fact among Giants fans and analysts, but it seems to lack actual evidence to back it up, and to me it just seems more likely given the lack of experience @ receiver in the offense that it would be the latter rather than the former.
Love the rest of what you wrote and I think your opinion on this matter is well-reasoned.
However, we need to also come to grips with the fact that these so called wins over team like the commanders and the patriots and to the other extent the Vikings last year continue to make us feel we are better then we really are.
The Cowboys and the Eagles are the bar. Plain and Fucking Simple. The Giants, with Jones or without, are a team that doesn't come close to the bar set by those two teams and we need to stop pretending we are even close. This team doesn't have lines both on offence and defense that can hold up to those teams. I don't give a shit who you march out there at QB, RB, WR, it doesn't matter.
I understand its got to start with QB, but its bigger then that, and what I don't like and I see it both will Dabs and Schoen is that there seems to be this stubbornness or arrogance admitting mistakes. Look at Neal. Schoen's comments in the latest conference are a great example of this guy's stubbornness. I don't want to hear well it took Andrew Thomas 3 years. Neal is a joke at RT. We have maybe one cog on the interior of the OL at this point. That's a fail. Look at the D line. You have Dex and Thibodeaux. That's it, and Thibs despite having 11 sacks this year, disappears at times. What's he done again the Eagles and Cowboy's? AGAIN MESSURE YOUR OUTPUT AND RESULTS AGAINST THE BOYS AND THE EAGLES. That's the line fellas! Hey Coach, Hey GM...YOUR NOT JUST A SNIFF AWAY!
IN fact, we are not even close.
RE: I understand and agree with most points Eric made
However, we need to also come to grips with the fact that these so called wins over team like the commanders and the patriots and to the other extent the Vikings last year continue to make us feel we are better then we really are.
The Cowboys and the Eagles are the bar. Plain and Fucking Simple. The Giants, with Jones or without, are a team that doesn't come close to the bar set by those two teams and we need to stop pretending we are even close. This team doesn't have lines both on offence and defense that can hold up to those teams. I don't give a shit who you march out there at QB, RB, WR, it doesn't matter.
I understand its got to start with QB, but its bigger then that, and what I don't like and I see it both will Dabs and Schoen is that there seems to be this stubbornness or arrogance admitting mistakes. Look at Neal. Schoen's comments in the latest conference are a great example of this guy's stubbornness. I don't want to hear well it took Andrew Thomas 3 years. Neal is a joke at RT. We have maybe one cog on the interior of the OL at this point. That's a fail. Look at the D line. You have Dex and Thibodeaux. That's it, and Thibs despite having 11 sacks this year, disappears at times. What's he done again the Eagles and Cowboy's? AGAIN MESSURE YOUR OUTPUT AND RESULTS AGAINST THE BOYS AND THE EAGLES. That's the line fellas! Hey Coach, Hey GM...YOUR NOT JUST A SNIFF AWAY!
IN fact, we are not even close.
You can't stack teams like it's the 80s any more.
Putting all those pieces in place, and holding them together, is a lot harder.
As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
That should be the final word on Jones until the offseason, but of course it won't be.
I've been a big Jones supporter - possibly a homer - since the first game vs the Bucs, but even I have had to be realistic about the situation this year.
Yes, there are glimpses of greatness. But I feel that whatever greatness he has won't be fully realized until he goes somewhere else. It's been much more disastrous than successful here, and he just might be too broken to succeed here. Yes our O line is a travesty - but it's also just as bad for Taylor and DeVito. Why is it that they're not afraid to uncork it down the field and Jones looks like he's playing against 15 people on defense?
I like Jones a lot and think he can be successful in this league. I'd still love for it to be here in 2024 and I'll root for that. But I admit it's not realistic. A stopgap year with a rookie QB in the wings and then Jones moves on is the most likely outcome and probably best for DJ and the Giants.
More should be discussed on the cap implications of running it back
I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
ThomasG i think "setting the franchise back" comment is more about forcing a QB pick just to pick one.
I wouldn't think Schoen would do that as he's smarter than that. But saying "we have to get a QB, we just have to take one" could backfire immensely if we draft a QB over an edge or WR group, or hell even OL.
Now, it could work out great if the QB is awesome. But Schoen is not going to take a 2nd tier QB in the first round, IMO.
If we know Schoen shouldn't force a bad pick, and you know he knows he shouldn't force a bad pick then this is moot. Yet a lot of posters think this is some value-add concept to add into their respective posts...it's not.
We should be far more concerned the Giants force a bad decision to stay with a non-productive QB like Jones than force a bad decision with a new prospect. Far more.
Taking a step back…that Eric has to pen this about a player going into his SIXTH season in ‘24 kinda says it all. And don’t give me the Simms comps…different era, game, & business.
That sucks that your web browser forces you to open and read threads without you making the conscious decision to do so. Have you tried turning your device off and turning it back on again?
Taking a step back…that Eric has to pen this about a player going into his SIXTH season in ‘24 kinda says it all. And don’t give me the Simms comps…different era, game, & business.
Serious question - what other organizations in the NFL would be this magnanimous by giving their mediocre QB a sixth-year audition?
I disagree to a point, I know teams move pieces all the time, I get it, but the Eagles, Cowboys, and Chiefs, year in and year out set the bar. SO how do they do it if pieces keep moving? Dak Prescot? I don't think he is a world beater, but I bet we'd take that offensive line in a heartbeat? The boys have fallen short of the big show, but they at least give their fans something to be hopeful about. How we doing?
Last year you could see that the Giants didn't trust Jones to throw the ball most of the year. It was painful to watch. He then picked up late against crappy Ds late in the year.
I guess the hope was that he would make progress with a better offense around him. But, that didn't happen.
be "the answer" at QB or horrible, horrible. The truth is he is probably an OK QB, we could do better but it ain't so easy to do that. I will believe in the Tommy DV story if he can continue for the rest of the year and we score more than 10 points per game.
So the Giants COULD do better than Jones, but it's no slam dunk and part of it depends on what you have to give up and how they rate these young QBs.
My take is it's possible to win a Super Bowl with Jones, but he would have to get better at post-snap processing and anticipating open receivers, and evaluating the whole field. But he might not be able to do that (look, no one really knows), he has to avoid injury maybe with a better OL and he would need to overall have a strong supporting cast. If they could trade up for Maye or something the truth is he might not work out, and the question will be what you have to give up.
So I kind of feel like Shoen is genuinely undecided at this point, and I personally don't feel strongly one way or the other. I'm in the let's see how it plays out mode, and I genuinely believe Shoen is in the best place to make that kind of decision. It's a little unsatisfying at this point but might be the reality
On all of these highlights I’m seeing and throws I’m watching for Daniels, he almost has zero push from his lower body on these throws. Watch it carefully. His legs and base are tiny, and he’s putting all of his “throw” with his arm. Which is what others have said on his scouting report.
Which is why, in my opinion, he does not have the ability to make all the throws in the NFL. Having a quick release is great. That means nothing to me. His mechanics and power are so off and he’s a long way away, IMO.
most of Kdavies post above but would add his increased cost.
You don't get rid of a QB just for cost but if you are going to pay a QB then it has to be for a special QB. When you factor in the injury history then a really special QB. Hard to make this argument for Jones.
Just be right on the next QB selection and take care of him better by getting better players around him (especially OL) and other spots. I also think the coaching/scheme/team building emphasis may have some issues.
IMO it obvious that somewhere in the draft , probably higher rather than lower , NY will pick a QB they think can compete with Jones for starter. If Jones plays great , he stays until he doesn’t, then the next guy steps in. Jones needs competition to fire him up .
On all of these highlights I’m seeing and throws I’m watching for Daniels, he almost has zero push from his lower body on these throws. Watch it carefully. His legs and base are tiny, and he’s putting all of his “throw” with his arm. Which is what others have said on his scouting report.
Which is why, in my opinion, he does not have the ability to make all the throws in the NFL. Having a quick release is great. That means nothing to me. His mechanics and power are so off and he’s a long way away, IMO.
Well that is a silly look. He is making those throws even without using his lower body. You don't think that a NFL QB coach wouldn't correct that?
Daniels is not a “brilliant” dual threat prospect.
Watch him throw, and I’m not just walking about the release. His mechanics right now are not NFL caliber.
What the hell are NFL caliber mechanics? Jones taps the ball when he throws. LJax typically doesn't set his feet and throws mostly with his arm. Josh Allen throws off his back foot half the time with a flick of the wrist. Tua looks like he's throwing a javelin.
Daniels has a lightening release and can throw the ball at a variety of angles with pace.
Sorry, and no offense, but you are high on this one...
Lots of folks have said well we are in a great spot for QB.
We are also in a great spot for a dynamic edge or WR, and OL in round 2. Something to be said for those positions while we continue to build up the roster.
As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
You do realize the majority of those defenses are awful? Its not the same SEC as it was 5-10 years ago... lol
Daniels is not a “brilliant” dual threat prospect.
Watch him throw, and I’m not just walking about the release. His mechanics right now are not NFL caliber.
What the hell are NFL caliber mechanics? Jones taps the ball when he throws. LJax typically doesn't set his feet and throws mostly with his arm. Josh Allen throws off his back foot half the time with a flick of the wrist. Tua looks like he's throwing a javelin.
Daniels has a lightening release and can throw the ball at a variety of angles with pace.
Sorry, and no offense, but you are high on this one...
bw, here's a recent scouting report from November 2023:
Jayden Daniels Draft Profile | LSU, QB Scouting Report
Jayden Daniels burst back onto the scene at LSU in 2022 and 2023 after fading into obscurity in Tempe, but what does his NFL Draft scouting report look like?
By
Dalton Miller
November 21, 2023 | 2:30 PM EST
Jayden Daniels had the LSU Tigers ranked fifth in the nation prior to the 2023 college football season. There’s a chance that the fifth-year senior is the best quarterback in the SEC, but what does his NFL Draft projection look like, and how does his scouting report read?
PFN Merchandise
Jayden Daniels Draft Profile and Measurements
Height: 6’4″
Weight: 210
Position: Quarterback
School: LSU
Current Year: Senior
Life is funny sometimes. In 2019, two “Slim Reapers” burst onto the college football scene. One of those players was Alabama’s DeVonta Smith, who caught 68 passes for 1,256 yards and 14 touchdowns while standing at six feet tall and weighing 160 pounds soaking wet.
The other was Daniels down in Tempe, Ariz. Standing 6’3″, the true freshman was listed at 175 pounds. Narrow shoulders and a paper-thin frame made him look even smaller than he was. But the young passer burst onto the scene as a freshman, throwing for 2,943 yards, 17 touchdowns, and only two interceptions. Daniels added 355 yards and three more TDs on the ground that year.
After struggling through the COVID-19-shortened 2020 season and again in 2021, Daniels transferred to LSU for 2022. After a surprising SEC West-winning season, the transfer QB was back in NFL Draft scopes. He performed well in 2022.
But he exploded in 2023. He is the likely recipient of the Heisman Trophy in 2023.
Jayden Daniels Scouting Report
Strengths
Manipulates second and third-level defenders
Spot zone coverage annihilator
Great quick game feel
Intermediate rhythm throws are automatic
Creativity to escape pressure
Lack of panic under pressure
Disciplined feet create throwing hallways vs. pressure
Quick release
Explosive lateral mover with good vision
Big-play threat every time he carries the football. Electric runner
Weaknesses
Moderate velocity
Absolutely no contact balance
Inconsistent release sporadically leads to horrendous wobblers
Has “on” and “off” days regarding ball placement
Post-snap coverage rotations can catch him by surprise
Takes far too many unnecessary hits
As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
You do realize the majority of those defenses are awful? Its not the same SEC as it was 5-10 years ago... lol
People really need to stop looking at stats as the #1 measure for a college player. Numerous examples of players going extremely high due to this reason and ultimately failing in the NFL.
Matt Stafford had mediocre stats at Georgia. He went #1 for a reason.
But it is very likely that he is next year's starter; even if they draft his replacement. If the team cuts him next year, the dead cap will be around $70M. I said this on other threads, if he plays well and they've drafted his replacement then that's a good problem to have.
As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
You do realize the majority of those defenses are awful? Its not the same SEC as it was 5-10 years ago... lol
I sorta agree with this - scouts aren't looking at college stats. They are projecting what he can do at the pro level.
Having said that - the NFL QB (and offenses) has changed dramatically over the last 5-7 years, and they can fit a variety of differently styled QBs.
There's a long way to go - combines, individual workouts, interviews, etc.......
Looking back and reading Lance Zeurlein's scouting report of Daniel Jones from 2019...it is essentially dead on:
Strengths
Benefitted working under QB guru David Cutcliffe at Duke
Did more with less at skill positions
Quick worker through progressions
Early recognition of deep ball opportunities and feathers throws into the target
Adjusts pre-snap plan to blitz and exploits hot-read opportunities
Consistent footwork from pocket with feet following eyes
Outstanding accuracy on intermediate throws
Uses fastball when he needs it, but generally throws with touch
Drives field-side throws with velocity
Courage to hang in the pocket and throw despite impending blow
Completion percentage hurt by high drop rate
Displays feel for pressure off the edge
Good athlete with scrambling ability to move the chains
Slick pocket slider with ability to keep searching for target or flee for yardage
Weaknesses
Thin in his lower body
Had 12 passes batted down at line of scrimmage in 2018
Benefitted from heavy play-action/RPO scheme
Incessant patting of the ball through progressions
Waits an extra step before cutting it loose too often
Average release speed slowed by small windup
Attempts throws into some impossible windows
Needs to work ahead of schedule more often on next level
Succumbs to off-platform tosses rather than working into better positioning
Showed willingness to throw it up for grabs rather than take sack
Loose ball handling in face of pressure leads to fumbles
Too much bravado as a runner
Took licks when slides or dashes out of bounds were options
He goes through progressions quickly? He recognized opportunities for deep shots? He's welcome to start doing these things at the pro level any time.
I will never understand the attachment to this player. The same people don't hesitate to rip other players on the team, but young Daniel is treated like a martyr. I will never understand it.
But it is very likely that he is next year's starter; even if they draft his replacement. If the team cuts him next year, the dead cap will be around $70M. I said this on other threads, if he plays well and they've drafted his replacement then that's a good problem to have.
are going to have to figure out all the reasons for Daniels enormous jump in production from his LSU 2022 season to 2023.
4.2 jump in YPA. 17 TD's to 40. 1000 more yards in passing.
2.4 increase in YPC.
You see jumps in production going from 1st year starting to years after. Certainly talent around the QB can factor for any season. But this Daniels season really stands out to his previous years.
after reading this, and I'm pretty certain someone(s) will.
The debate will only rage on as the Giants drop further in the draft order, and give the brass a potential out on seriously pursuing a QB in the '24 draft.
No more half-measures, no more punting on obvious mistakes, man up and move forward with some fookin' courage.
I do find the lengths that people go to defend Jones mystifying. I really don’t get the attachment. Yes, he seems like a good dude, but so do a lot of guys.
It's fair.
In hindsight, I never had an issue with passing on the 5th year. I did think they were going to Franchise him. I think, they think, that they could have Barkley and Jones back in the scenario that played out. They bet on Jones getting better.
However, his injury record is the problem. This is the risk with any "running" qb on your team. RGIII as mentioned, is a perfect example.
I will be surprised if they go QB early in Round 1. I can see them doing the hedge and trading up in the late Rd1 or just staying and drafting in round 2.
They just have too many needs right now. It would not shock me if they get a QB in Rd 2 or 3 as a development QB. They let DJ start if he's healthy then, they keep DeVito as a backup.
after reading this, and I'm pretty certain someone(s) will.
The debate will only rage on as the Giants drop further in the draft order, and give the brass a potential out on seriously pursuing a QB in the '24 draft.
No more half-measures, no more punting on obvious mistakes, man up and move forward with some fookin' courage.
"whether they realize it or not, Schoen and Daboll will be on thin ice in 2024.".
They BETTER realize it. And gambling on Jones health/ growth is not exactly job security.
Blueworm, mentioned if something along the lines of "if you can't market success, market hope".
That's exactly WHY they should move on NOW. Move heaven and earth to draft a new QB. It buys you more good will AND time from ownership.
If they put all their chips with Jones and he flames out (which is what his career has been up until now), then are likely gone after next season.
Do they really want to take that chance?
There's a reason why they are HEAVILLY scouting this QB class, putting a lot of time AND resources into it.
I would be SHOCKED if they don't take a QB at #1 and if it means using draft capital to get in position, so be it!
so my opinions on Nabers (and Daniels) need considerable updating. I've touted Odunze here for at least two seasons, love the player. Not sure he's a top 10 pick yet tho.
That sucks that your web browser forces you to open and read threads without you making the conscious decision to do so. Have you tried turning your device off and turning it back on again?
like Jones more than most here, but his play never justified the huge contract he received. The correct move was to use the FT on him to see if he could duplicate last year and because he already had already suffered a concussion and a serious neck injury. Now he's had another neck injury and a torn ACL.
His injury history by itself means that he can't be the future QB of the Giants. So draft a QB in the first or second round and cut Jones after the 2024 season, even though doing so means a $22M cap hit. His contract is a classic "sunk cost." There's nothing the Giants can do about it, just like with Golladay and Solder.
so my opinions on Nabers (and Daniels) need considerable updating. I've touted Odunze here for at least two seasons, love the player. Not sure he's a top 10 pick yet tho.
Trust me on this. Watch Brian Thomas, Jr the "other WR" for LSU. He's unbelievable with his size, catch radius, and explosion.
On all of these highlights I’m seeing and throws I’m watching for Daniels, he almost has zero push from his lower body on these throws. Watch it carefully. His legs and base are tiny, and he’s putting all of his “throw” with his arm. Which is what others have said on his scouting report.
Which is why, in my opinion, he does not have the ability to make all the throws in the NFL. Having a quick release is great. That means nothing to me. His mechanics and power are so off and he’s a long way away, IMO.
Thanks for responding.
When I see Daniels play, he is an exciting prospect on many fronts. While reviews may reveal some mechanics that need work, his passing prowess is exponentially better than a year ago. His developmental work this past offseason has really paid off and I don't think his reviewers have caught up yet with how much his game has improved with his head/arm versus just his feet.
I think come next March everybody will be offering him up as not only a sure top 3 pick, but likely #1 overall.
Looking back and reading Lance Zeurlein's scouting report of Daniel Jones from 2019...it is essentially dead on:
Strengths
Benefitted working under QB guru David Cutcliffe at Duke
Did more with less at skill positions
Quick worker through progressions
Early recognition of deep ball opportunities and feathers throws into the target Adjusts pre-snap plan to blitz and exploits hot-read opportunities
Consistent footwork from pocket with feet following eyes
Outstanding accuracy on intermediate throws
Uses fastball when he needs it, but generally throws with touch Drives field-side throws with velocity
Courage to hang in the pocket and throw despite impending blow
Completion percentage hurt by high drop rate Displays feel for pressure off the edge
Good athlete with scrambling ability to move the chains
Slick pocket slider with ability to keep searching for target or flee for yardage
Weaknesses
Thin in his lower body
Had 12 passes batted down at line of scrimmage in 2018
Benefitted from heavy play-action/RPO scheme
Incessant patting of the ball through progressions
Waits an extra step before cutting it loose too often
Average release speed slowed by small windup
Attempts throws into some impossible windows
Needs to work ahead of schedule more often on next level
Succumbs to off-platform tosses rather than working into better positioning
Showed willingness to throw it up for grabs rather than take sack
Loose ball handling in face of pressure leads to fumbles
Too much bravado as a runner
Took licks when slides or dashes out of bounds were options
I agree that this is a pretty accurate scouting report, although a couple of the strengths stand out to me as questionable now after years of observation (bolded above):
Adjusts pre-snap plan to blitz and exploits hot-read opportunities
This supposed strength has never translated to the NFL, so much so that I question the veracity of the scouting report on this particular element. Just this year there were a few instances of DJ having poor pre-snap blitz recognition and no feel for the resulting hot-read opportunities.
Drives field-side throws with velocity
This one feels accurate, but the reason why it stands out to me is that Daboll and Kafka tend to run the passing game almost exclusively to the boundary side. Even if field side arm strength is a plus for DJ, it's wasted in this offense anyway.
Displays feel for pressure off the edge
This has felt inaccurate to me from DJ's rookie year on and has not improved by any substantial measure in the years since. But even going back to 2019, the fumbles from DJ have always seemed like they were at least partially due to DJ not sensing the backside pressure coming off the edge, and we still saw that happen against Seattle this year. I don't know if this "strength" was ever true and I don't think it's true now.
And then there are the listed weaknesses - are there any that we can definitively say have improved in five years? Maybe the willingness to throw into impossible windows, but that one seems to have come at the expense of becoming a bit too risk-averse in the process. It's tough for a lot of QBs to find the right balance on that, and I think DJ's swings have been a bit more volatile.
That sucks that your web browser forces you to open and read threads without you making the conscious decision to do so. Have you tried turning your device off and turning it back on again?
It's a joke, not a wanker. Don't take it so hard.
You and your jokes. I always forget how funny you are!
Jones was a top half of the league QB last year, but is not a "franchise QB" no matter what your definition of the word is. Giants had a later pick in the round. Not a very deep QB draft. I don't blame Schoen for re-signing Jones, getting him some weapons, and trying to improve the OL. That's the smart play at the time. The contract is large, but reality is that's the going rate for a QB who was playing at that level.
Now, the Giants have a higher pick, multiple 2nd rounders, and a deep QB draft staring at them. Plus Jones injuries have made in clear that they need to bring in another young QB.
are going to have to figure out all the reasons for Daniels enormous jump in production from his LSU 2022 season to 2023.
4.2 jump in YPA. 17 TD's to 40. 1000 more yards in passing.
2.4 increase in YPC.
You see jumps in production going from 1st year starting to years after. Certainly talent around the QB can factor for any season. But this Daniels season really stands out to his previous years.
Burrow, I believe, also had a big bump in his metrics from his 1st to 2nd (final year) at LSU.
As a freshman as Arizona State, Daniels had an excellent debut. He outplayed Herbert when ASU beat the Ducks (who were #6).
Things started to fall apart for the entire ASU program when they got called out for recruiting violations and Daniel's mom was accused of coordinating for the payments of travel for recruits and their parents.
I'm ready for Jones to be off the roster and move on. He's had a long rope here, he's gotten to work with three coaching staffs. He's been paid very well.
He's not good enough. In the year where he had his career year, he only threw 15 TD's. That doesn't warrant $40m per year.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
On all of these highlights I’m seeing and throws I’m watching for Daniels, he almost has zero push from his lower body on these throws. Watch it carefully. His legs and base are tiny, and he’s putting all of his “throw” with his arm. Which is what others have said on his scouting report.
Which is why, in my opinion, he does not have the ability to make all the throws in the NFL. Having a quick release is great. That means nothing to me. His mechanics and power are so off and he’s a long way away, IMO.
I appreciate your thoughtful post on this, Ryan.
My response would be that I think you're viewing something as a weakness that might actually be a strength. The very nature of that quick release might be rooted in a throwing motion that appears to be entirely arm-driven and not requiring the base to be fully set with a lower half drive on the ball. Just thinking about having to set his legs and drive from his lower body would require a much longer release, IMO.
That's not intended to dismiss your concern, to be clear. Just that I think the ability to throw with a flick of the wrist and without having to set his lower half is a tremendous strength for a QB, not a liability.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
Caleb Williams is going #1. Daniels will be a top-7 consolation prize, maybe to the Giants.
GD, I agree, I guess it depends on whether or not teams think that it really doesn't matter in terms of Daniels' overall frame.
Because in all honesty - it is the #1 reason why I would not draft him in the first round, but that is just me. I've seen plenty of QBs with his frame get destroyed in the NFL due to running and not be able to hold up over time.
And repeating the Jones mistake. I don't think Gettleman forced the DJ pick (unless you believe he panicked instead of waiting until 17), but rather DG had conviction and picked Jones. That's actually 100% right and what he should have done. The problem is DG and everyone else in scouting at that time was horrible at evaluating talent.
I trust JS to be a better evaluator of talent so I trust him to pick the QB he feels is best.
And repeating the Jones mistake. I don't think Gettleman forced the DJ pick (unless you believe he panicked instead of waiting until 17), but rather DG had conviction and picked Jones. That's actually 100% right and what he should have done. The problem is DG and everyone else in scouting at that time was horrible at evaluating talent.
I trust JS to be a better evaluator of talent so I trust him to pick the QB he feels is best.
manifesto - it would start with the end of Eli's career and have a larger focus on the front office involvement and continued influence on roster making decisions.
I love a good conspiracy :) ... but I honestly think it starts there.
For me, my determination (for whatever it's worth) was watching Taylor and Devito run this offense. When the pocket is collapsing Jones, looks to run. Taylor and Devito have eyes downfield (although Devito will hold the ball if nothing is open and take the sack).
It's time to move on from Jones, after next year of course.
GD, I agree, I guess it depends on whether or not teams think that it really doesn't matter in terms of Daniels' overall frame.
Because in all honesty - it is the #1 reason why I would not draft him in the first round, but that is just me. I've seen plenty of QBs with his frame get destroyed in the NFL due to running and not be able to hold up over time.
It depends on whether GMs think he can bulk up.
Running QBs take a beating in the NFL, without question.
Daniels though has become such a more polished throwing QB this year and relies far more on his arm than a year ago. That is why his passing numbers are off the charts this year, while his rushing hasn't missed a beat in the meanwhile.
His trajectory as a dynamic passer, who can also be a dangerous runner, is why you draft him. Not the reverse.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
It also doesn't mean that we ignore the Eagles playoff game or the previous 4 years...as a whole he has had 1 good year, 3 bad years and his rookie season that appeared to be a psoitive if 18 fumbles and 12 INTs in 12 games is good.
GD, I agree, I guess it depends on whether or not teams think that it really doesn't matter in terms of Daniels' overall frame.
Because in all honesty - it is the #1 reason why I would not draft him in the first round, but that is just me. I've seen plenty of QBs with his frame get destroyed in the NFL due to running and not be able to hold up over time.
It depends on whether GMs think he can bulk up.
The NFL is about talent. If you have the talent, the best coaching on the planet can help with any mechanic adjustments as long as the player is amenable to coaching.
I think what's going on here with Daniels is how much he popped this year after being a prospect that was likely a day three prospect. So, it's sort of stunning people. But we've seen this before with guys like Burrow.
And he didn't do this is the Conference USA, the Sunbelt Conference or the Mountain West Conference. It's the best competition in America - the SEC.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
What if we say it another way, and I think someone else on here made this point a few days ago:
2022 does count, but we've seen DJ have success before when he's operating in ways that teams haven't seen before. We saw it when he was a rookie and there was no NFL tape on him, and we saw it in 2022 when there was no tape on him in Daboll/Kafka's offense. And what we've also seen is that the league adjusts to his success much more quickly than he adjusts to their adjustments. DJ's success has now twice been followed by a crash back to earth.
What DJ and the Giants did in 2022 matters, but it matters less than 2023 because 2023 is the current point that we're working from going forward. And the ability to adapt to opponents taking away what worked for him in the past is something we have not seen happen with DJ.
So, unless and until we get new evidence to the contrary, how can anyone be certain that 2023 isn't the beginning of a repeat of 2020/2021? It was pretty obvious right from the opener this year that the Cowboys were prepared for a heavy dose of play-action, for example - they were ignoring the play fake and rushing DJ as though it was a regular dropback. We knew that the Giants used playaction more than almost any other team in 2022, and that was a big part of DJ's success. So when that was taken away, what was DJ's next move going to be? This year, there wasn't one. And there are plenty of excuses that might be valid. But this isn't a one-off scenario, IMO - the league seems to catch up to DJ and then he struggles without the cheat codes.
For me, my determination (for whatever it's worth) was watching Taylor and Devito run this offense. When the pocket is collapsing Jones, looks to run. Taylor and Devito have eyes downfield (although Devito will hold the ball if nothing is open and take the sack).
It's time to move on from Jones, after next year of course.
I agree with all that is said ... However what if Jones makes the adjustment about keeping his eyes down field vs tuck and run to go into scramble mode AND his eyes are still scanning. Jones sitting on the sideline watching can let him see his errors much easier. He is a hard worker that is willing to change and grow.
lots of things here are true and some of the truths contradict others
the 5th year option was the right call. But then Schoen/Daboll would have to hear that they got their jobs becuase they agreed to keep Jones. Had they done that, 1) Jones would had to have shown progress and health for 2 years before getting a new deal. No 1 year fluke would do it 2) it would have been cheap and 3) it would be done after this year with no cap implications.
he is what he is. An avg QB with good athleticism and work ethic with a 11-16 ceiling, 17-22 floor. Not bad, not great.
going forward, they have to get a QB because even if they loved him as a QB, he's had 2 serious neck injuries and an ACL. They can't risk the success of the franchise on that.
bw, again I would recommend to ease up on using stats as the measure for college QBs.
I'm not that guy. But the production matches up with the talent. The explosion Daniels has when he hits the accelerator to run is elite for a QB. Just a high end turn of foot.
As for his throwing, the release and ability to make off schedule plays jump of the screen.
Hope and optimism are not a good plan, especially when there's a mountain evidence against it. Find the courage to rip off the bandaid and move forward.
But he wasn’t given that. The incompetence of the FO over the prior two regimes was epic. And the injuries may have been equally as bad. Perfect storm of incompetence and bad luck. Unbelievable.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
What if we say it another way, and I think someone else on here made this point a few days ago:
2022 does count, but we've seen DJ have success before when he's operating in ways that teams haven't seen before. We saw it when he was a rookie and there was no NFL tape on him, and we saw it in 2022 when there was no tape on him in Daboll/Kafka's offense. And what we've also seen is that the league adjusts to his success much more quickly than he adjusts to their adjustments. DJ's success has now twice been followed by a crash back to earth.
What DJ and the Giants did in 2022 matters, but it matters less than 2023 because 2023 is the current point that we're working from going forward. And the ability to adapt to opponents taking away what worked for him in the past is something we have not seen happen with DJ.
So, unless and until we get new evidence to the contrary, how can anyone be certain that 2023 isn't the beginning of a repeat of 2020/2021? It was pretty obvious right from the opener this year that the Cowboys were prepared for a heavy dose of play-action, for example - they were ignoring the play fake and rushing DJ as though it was a regular dropback. We knew that the Giants used playaction more than almost any other team in 2022, and that was a big part of DJ's success. So when that was taken away, what was DJ's next move going to be? This year, there wasn't one. And there are plenty of excuses that might be valid. But this isn't a one-off scenario, IMO - the league seems to catch up to DJ and then he struggles without the cheat codes.
and chronology on Jone's career.
What I've been harping about, is everything BEFORE this year is no longer relevant.
The organization HAS to be in a different place regarding him, because of the 2nd neck injury and ACL.
Going forward with him (long term) WILL get these two fired.
If he gets injured (seriously) again next year (and history says he WILL), then the betting odds are that Mara won't trust them anymore and we get to start over- again.
Its bad to be in a position to have to force a QB pick, but here we are- again!
I just really don't understand the intense focus on the QB. This team is not close. This team has not been close for 12 years.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
So intense because a couple of individuals are trying change people’s minds. Sell out the franchise to get anybody but Jones. One person believes we should draft 3 QBs. Some of us have other outside interests. I wonder if this debate will continue until next May.
RE: lots of things here are true and some of the truths contradict others
the 5th year option was the right call. But then Schoen/Daboll would have to hear that they got their jobs becuase they agreed to keep Jones. Had they done that, 1) Jones would had to have shown progress and health for 2 years before getting a new deal. No 1 year fluke would do it 2) it would have been cheap and 3) it would be done after this year with no cap implications.
he is what he is. An avg QB with good athleticism and work ethic with a 11-16 ceiling, 17-22 floor. Not bad, not great.
going forward, they have to get a QB because even if they loved him as a QB, he's had 2 serious neck injuries and an ACL. They can't risk the success of the franchise on that.
Great post, bottom line is we need to turn the page. Good writeup Eric. Focus now should be on whether Tommy Touchdown can be a viable low cost backup.
RE: one point Eric made that rises above all others
"whether they realize it or not, Schoen and Daboll will be on thin ice in 2024.".
They BETTER realize it. And gambling on Jones health/ growth is not exactly job security.
Blueworm, mentioned if something along the lines of "if you can't market success, market hope".
That's exactly WHY they should move on NOW. Move heaven and earth to draft a new QB. It buys you more good will AND time from ownership.
If they put all their chips with Jones and he flames out (which is what his career has been up until now), then are likely gone after next season.
Do they really want to take that chance?
There's a reason why they are HEAVILLY scouting this QB class, putting a lot of time AND resources into it.
I would be SHOCKED if they don't take a QB at #1 and if it means using draft capital to get in position, so be it!
Why would they be on thin ice? Mara was involved with the Jones contract. This was discussed. They can draft the replacement in 2025.
I just really don't understand the intense focus on the QB. This team is not close. This team has not been close for 12 years.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
Were the Giants close in 2004 when they traded up giving up multiple draft picks including their 2004 and 2005 1st round picks for Eli Manning? That team was a bigger dumpster fire than this one yet they went out and traded all that for a franchise QB.
Were the Texans considered "close" going into this season? They were projected to finish with a likely top 5 pick and yet Stroud has elevated the entire franchise. QB is the most important position in football and as we have seen numerous times they can mask a lot of holes on the roster.
I just really don't understand the intense focus on the QB. This team is not close. This team has not been close for 12 years.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
So intense because a couple of individuals are trying change people’s minds. Sell out the franchise to get anybody but Jones. One person believes we should draft 3 QBs. Some of us have other outside interests. I wonder if this debate will continue until next May.
This argument is basically saying that no QB matters, the rest of the roster is the only determining factor.
Someone should alert the NFL because it seems like most teams are just pissing away massive money on guys that are passengers on the roster.
RE: RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
He is a bust, and busts have zero trade value. Look at Lance. Absolutely no advantage to NYG. On the other hand, I can’t imagine a smart QB would want to end up in CHI or AZ over NY. Definitely think there is room for some Eli draft type gamesmanship if that is the case.
Given the high picks in the 2024 draft, and the prospects available, there may be no better time to get their next QB. It's fluid and might not align either, of course.
They could draft the wrong QB again, there's no protection against it. But, they need to admit the QB mistake and move off it, otherwise this franchise is stuck in the mud. This decision precedes any other roster decision, no matter all the other holes.
RE: RE: RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
I've generally been supportive of Jones. I still think he can play in this league under the right circumstances but I don't think those circumstances will ever be in place in time for him here. I think it's time to move on and for no other reason than the injuries, especially the neck injuries, that, at best, can take away an important part of his game -- running -- and at worst, could end his career in a heartbeat.
I would have liked to see what Jones could have done with a consistently competent offensive line in front of him. I've read and listened to a lot of commentary about Jones' reluctance to take down-field shots, to throw to certain areas of the field, not taking advantage of opportunities. They can't all be wrong. I've also read comments here about how good QBs compensate for bad O-lines. Maybe so. But imo, no QB could have performed well with the offensive line play at the beginning of this season. It was football malpractice. The O line is still bad but not nearly as bad as it was in Sept. and Oct. and Tommy DeVito is very fortunate in this regard.
So, I'm in with the time to move on contingent. I hope Schoen was being careful with his comments about drafting a QB. If he and Daboll believe their Josh Allen is available at the top of this draft, I hope they go and get him instead of settling for a second or third tier player. I also hope they can solve the Evan Neal enigma and/or find a competent right tackle in free agency that can either start or provide quality depth.
It also wouldn't shock me that somewhere down the line, a healthy Daniel Jones winds up playing QB at a high level for another team. I think John Mara is right. The Giants did screw the kid up and I hope he gets a real second chance somewhere else.
The point of the article is the risk to the front office/coaching staff of making the wrong choice.
I think they understand unless you don’t trust the GM and Coach. If that is true then they should not be running the draft. A few people are beating the drums that we have get the best QB no matter what the cost. I believe they are in the the minority but keep the debate going.
I am convinced that Jones is a practice warrior, kind of the anti-Tim Tebow. I think that Gettlemen and Shurmur and Judge and Garrett and Shoen and Daboll all believed in him at some point is because in practice, he looks so good that everyone thinks they can get him to do it on the field. Unfortunately, for the most part, it just hasn't happened.
If DJ's rehab does not allow him to start the season. Could the team reach an injury settlement with him and lessen the CAP impact?
As an example: "DJ, we have no plans to have you start now or in the future, we'll give you 40M to go away and then you can go and try to get picked up by another team"
I don't understand exactly how an injury settlement works in regard to the CAP, or if it is even worth it
One could argue there was, in fact, a noticeable difference in the offense when Taylor or DeVito have played. It may not be a very good offense, but it has been better with them under center this year, than Jones. You are correct, though. It is very damning.
As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
And, which one, or more, of those SEC teams has a defense as good as the worst defensive team in the NFL?
Comparing the NFL to college is like comparing apples to oranges (or better yet, lemons).
If Devito, Jones, and Taylor were all healthy right now and you needed a win to save your job, who's starting? To me its honestly close and I'm leaning towards Devito or Taylor. To me that is very very telling.
And that's not even considering his contract or injuries. It's time to move on and I can't even fathom how that is debatable.
I don't care how nice he is or how hard he works. I need a QB that can produce touchdowns. He hasn't proven he can.
One could argue there was, in fact, a noticeable difference in the offense when Taylor or DeVito have played. It may not be a very good offense, but it has been better with them under center this year, than Jones. You are correct, though. It is very damning.
After years of being told by a segment of fans that the Giants couldn't possibly find someone better than Jones, via draft or FA.
In the Draft for no other reason than the uncertainty of Daniel Jones’ long-term health. And for those who think he’s a below-grade QB, you can add that reason as well.
But I find all the negative feelings about Daniel Jones somewhat odd for a very simple reason: You may feel he’s a big part of the problem, but I 100% believe this entire franchise, this entire team and — to name just one unit — the epic 12-year fail of the offensive line are so much more deserving of criticism. Daniel Jones is a distant second to all that mess.
Thanks, Eric! Great read and I shared it with my Giant fan friends
I like DJ as a person, but as my QB going forward...the guy that needs to beat the big boys, consecutive weeks in the playoffs and the big game....I don't see it.
But I agree with the consensus here.....which of the college QB's gives us that best chance, can play in NY and elevate the rest of the team's play.
We have to get this right or it's continued frustration. The Eagles pivoted quickly off Wentz to Hurts. We can't seem to do that well. Hopefully Schoen proves me wrong.
Jay - Texans were in a bit of a different circumstance because they had the #2 overall pick.
If Giants have the #2 overall pick in 2024 which they likely will not, it would be an obvious outcome to take Williams or Maye depending on who was there.
and then add the QB. Has anyone watched the Browns fighting for dear life with the literal number one defense in the league? The Seahawks, who have been praised for their solid roster building, falling apart once Geno started playing subpar? The Steelers and their dull-as-dishwater mirage season?
The QB either starts the project or is part of the project from the start. Otherwise you are simply wasting the time of everyone else on the roster. Teams that succeed with below-average QB play are a rarity, and the examples of roster building then QB - the Bucs adding Brady and the Rams adding Stafford - are not realistic equivalent options right now. And with regards to the Cowboys and Niners: both Purdy and Dak are good QBs. Are they great? Maybe not, but both teams would struggle with bottom 3rd QB play.
RE: RE: RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
What will set the Giants back further if they decide to pass on a QB in the draft and commit to Jones yet again. Daboll will be fired and they will have yet another coaching change which will then cause the remaining Jones supporters to claim that he should get the 2025 season to prove himself under his 4th HC.
That was an excellent way of laying out the facts without ryan or terps level bias.
Having said that, I don't know how you can read that and think "maybe Jones should be the guy in 2024." Jones has had a thousand chances to show what he can do - even with a hideously mismanaged roster, and it isn't much. This roster is still a couple of years from competing with Dallas and Philadelphia. I can't see any scenario where running it back with Jones for 2-3 years makes any sense. This guy is not going somewhere else and turning into Tom Brady. Maybe he goes somewhere else and becomes Joe Flacco.
Schoen made a mistake signing Jones to the extension that he did. The question for him now is can he recognize the mistake and do something to mitigate it, or will we just start Jones next year and act surprised when he plays like Daniel Jones?
Jay - Texans were in a bit of a different circumstance because they had the #2 overall pick.
If Giants have the #2 overall pick in 2024 which they likely will not, it would be an obvious outcome to take Williams or Maye depending on who was there.
Yes but 3 QB's went in the top 5. Young has struggled mightily but he is in an incredibly tough situation because his weapons are among the worst in the NFL. Stroud is having the best season of a rookie QB in NFL history. Hell even Anthony Richardson looked great until his injury. Richardson's stats in college were very bad and he was expected to need a year on the bench but he performed surprisingly well. This year there are three QB's I would love to see the Giants draft and if they pass on any of them then I will lose alot of faith in the FO.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
If you can't see at this point, given what we have now seen in 2023 from Tyrod and DeVito, that 2022 was simply Daboll masterminding a remedial scheme to account for DJ's limitations, then you still don't get it and probably never will. Denial is a powerful thing.
DJ beat three good teams last year. The Ravens beat themselves, the Jaguars had a terrible start who only rebounded in November after we beat them, and the Vikings were arguably the worst defense to ever host a playoff game. The Eagles playoff game should have been the tell that the league had figured out how to effectively scheme against Daboll's approach.
Schoen missed it. Big mistake. Pivot quickly now. Get DJ's replacement in April.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
What if we say it another way, and I think someone else on here made this point a few days ago:
2022 does count, but we've seen DJ have success before when he's operating in ways that teams haven't seen before. We saw it when he was a rookie and there was no NFL tape on him, and we saw it in 2022 when there was no tape on him in Daboll/Kafka's offense. And what we've also seen is that the league adjusts to his success much more quickly than he adjusts to their adjustments. DJ's success has now twice been followed by a crash back to earth.
What DJ and the Giants did in 2022 matters, but it matters less than 2023 because 2023 is the current point that we're working from going forward. And the ability to adapt to opponents taking away what worked for him in the past is something we have not seen happen with DJ.
So, unless and until we get new evidence to the contrary, how can anyone be certain that 2023 isn't the beginning of a repeat of 2020/2021? It was pretty obvious right from the opener this year that the Cowboys were prepared for a heavy dose of play-action, for example - they were ignoring the play fake and rushing DJ as though it was a regular dropback. We knew that the Giants used playaction more than almost any other team in 2022, and that was a big part of DJ's success. So when that was taken away, what was DJ's next move going to be? This year, there wasn't one. And there are plenty of excuses that might be valid. But this isn't a one-off scenario, IMO - the league seems to catch up to DJ and then he struggles without the cheat codes.
a)great summary
b) the Haskins flopped/killed line - I spit out my coffee
c) I'm a tired fan (67 y/o been watching since I was 5 sitting in front of the old b/w tv set with my dad)
time to move on from Jones. Period.
RE: More should be discussed on the cap implications of running it back
I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
RE: RE: More should be discussed on the cap implications of running it back
I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
Agreed. And perhaps the most important reason why they have to get a top tier quarterback from the 2024 draft....
between his ears. Jones succeeded in 2022 when a very basic offense was designed for Jones that leaned heavily on his legs and not on his passing. If the league outlawed the forward pass for 2024, I would keep Jones. If they played the 2022 Minnesota Vikings defense every week in 2024, I would also keep Jones. He can succeed long term in those limited circumstances.
But the league is a passing league, and he is simply not smart enough to run a complex offense, read defenses, and not get baited into game changing plays by rookies. I am not saying he is not a smart guy, he undoubtedly is. But is football IQ and processing time are not even NFL average. The game is moving as quickly for him now as it did his rookie year.
I would love for the Giants to be opening up the playbook for the next QB to read a defense and then attack it, not be limited to one-read throws and bootleg runs.
“We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up since he’s been here.” --John Mara
Question: Does this explain why the Giants gave Jones an extension? If one assumes this is a Mara defense, then it follows that Mara had definite input into the decision to enter into a negotiation with Jones. Furthermore, as Eric points out, it seems clear (hindsight is always 20/20) that FT’ing Jones would have been better than Barkley. How many BBI’rs wanted Barkley to be a unrestricted free agent?
“GoTerps Critique”
Question: Does Jones elevate the team in any way shape or form that Eli Manning, Phil Simms or Jeff Hostetler did? As pointed out in the article, it does not matter all the changes in management and coaching staff. Isn’t 5 years of history enough? Frankly, I don’t care if he has great games against poor teams. Look at his record against team that make the playoffs. And let’s be candid and open about the injury situation. Eric is. This QB gets injured often and the injuries are not insignificant. Long term prognosis? Fans ought to be concerned that as Eric pointed out NFL defenses have adjusted quite well to Jones running tactics. For me, he appears to be asking for it if he continues to run relatively frequently as a second option.
Don’t give me this “it’s only a 2-year deal” crap.
Question: Why would Schoen and Daboll not exercise the fifth year extension just as insurance; yet go ahead and provide a four year contract extension? This gets back to the first question. Regardless of what actually happened in 2022, it appears to this fan that Schoen and Daboll did a 180-degree about face in the off season from where they were during the season. I say 180-degree because they could have franchised him. They chose not to.
"You guys all saw last season. The guy won 10 games. He won a road playoff game for the Giants."
Questions: Did the Bucs stick with Trent Dilfer after they won the Super Bowl? How are the Titan’s doing with Tannerhill? Is Cousins going to be re-signed with the Vikings? Why isn’t Winston the starter with the Saints? Sticking with Jones stinks and is like betting to an inside straight after the bettor lost money (sunk cost) thinking his luck is bound to change. That is bad behavioral economics.
"If ownership did not have any deciding role in retaining Daniel Jones…"
Question: How could any “owner” of any business not have a deciding role in a key, strategic decision to retain Jones? Mara and Tisch are the owners for Christ sake. They have that right. Do the fans believe that they had no input or involvement in the decision to bet $160 million on a questionable QB? Really? If they did then the fans need to recognize that this is business as usual. The owners will not, nor should they not be involved in such important decisions. The issue is how will their behavior change to avoid the land mines that they keep stepping on with the collateral damage of firing GMs and coaches. Unfortunately, we have no Pete Rozelle-like direct involvement to save this franchise from its owners. I fear we are in for dark times as Giant fans.
If there are questions about who should be the Giants starting QB going into 2025, Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll will not be here to be part of that decision making.
You have 2024 to have an answer at QB. A rookie buys them that. Daniel Jones coming off a typical Daniel Jones year does not.
yes, TD passes are up, but they only scored 10 points off drives that both started inside the other teams 40 yard line. How was the production against Dallas in the first half?
People keep trashing Pugh, but the pass blocking on the left side his miles better with Thomas and Pugh on the side, Jones hardly played with either, and Bredeson was his starting center for a few games.
Pretty obvious they should be hard at drafted a QB early, and Jones will have next year and then move on.
But the game is too fast to not be able to process quickly. And the fact that a rookie Center is tasked with setting protections, when it should be the 5th year QB's job is indicative of this
Ending up in a draft position where the only way to get the QB we want is to trade future #1 picks. This team is so far behind the Eagles and Cowboys that we can't afford future drafts without picking in the first round.
RE: RE: More should be discussed on the cap implications of running it back
I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
I haven't been able to find anything concrete on this, but I remember reading or hearing that on a podcast when the contract came out. There is also an Athletic article that mentions escalators:
"Jones also can earn an additional $35 million in incentives and escalators throughout the deal. His personal incentives are tied to passing yards, passing touchdowns, total offensive yards and total touchdowns, according to a league source.
Jones can earn up to $1 million for finishing in the top 15 among quarterbacks in those four categories, according to Pro Football Talk. He can earn another $1.5 million for finishing in the top 10 among quarterbacks in those four categories and another $1.5 million for finishing in the top five among quarterbacks in those four categories." Duggan Article - ( New Window )
Ending up in a draft position where the only way to get the QB we want is to trade future #1 picks. This team is so far behind the Eagles and Cowboys that we can't afford future drafts without picking in the first round.
We also can't afford to go into those games with those teams stacking 8 guys in the box and daring the QB to beat them with his arm when that QB has no chance in hell at doing that.
Let's just all agree that Jones is damaged goods and we need to move on.
Forget about whether or not there are some who feel he could have been the guy vs. others who feel he's never been nor will be.
The injury history makes all of it moot now. Especially when considering his legs are the most dynamic part of his game. Jones can't be exposed to these hits at the NFL level any longer.
But the game is too fast to not be able to process quickly. And the fact that a rookie Center is tasked with setting protections, when it should be the 5th year QB's job is indicative of this
Watching Daniel Jones trying to play QB is so awkward. He looks anything but natural out there.
We have more than a large enough sample size to know
that Daniel Jones cannot hit receivers downfield with any consistency, lacks pocket presence and when things break down in the pock almost always tucks and runs rather than keeping eyes open downfield to make a play when coverage is breaking down. It was time to move on before he got the contract but I can see why they did it and the Barkley contractual situation put us in a real bind. Thankfully, the contract is "fairly" easy to get out from under. Most definately time to look for a quarterback of the future.
Ending up in a draft position where the only way to get the QB we want is to trade future #1 picks. This team is so far behind the Eagles and Cowboys that we can't afford future drafts without picking in the first round.
We also can't afford to go into those games with those teams stacking 8 guys in the box and daring the QB to beat them with his arm when that QB has no chance in hell at doing that.
Agreed. To be clear, I am firmly in the "move on from Jones" camp. My comment is more related to the question about rooting for losses or rooting for wins the rest of the season. People here note that sometimes QBs drafted outside the top 10 end up being better than those in the top 10, and that's true. But it's also true that if Schoen decides he likes one of the Big 2 or 3, he may be forced to give up future #1s to get him. So it's very possible that the cost of meaningless wins against Washington and NE is a future top 5 pick
RE: RE: More should be discussed on the cap implications of running it back
I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
Linked article has all the details on incentives. Initial theoretical maximum total of $35M, half of which dependent on playoff appearance. The theoretical $17.5M achievable by personal performance alone has already been reduced by fact Jones can't hit any incentives this year. Also, the highest level of incentives aren't easy to reach.
Bottom line, I would say, is that the incentives are less significant than the $23M injury guarantee. And, whatever we in the peanut gallery may think the Giants should do, I don't get any sense that the Giants will allow either factor to influence what they do with Jones.
I do agree with Blue the Dog's point that the current $47M cap hit for Jones for 2024 could very well be restructured in the effort to compete in 2024, with the consequence of increasing the current $22M dead cap figure for 2025 that has gotten so much focus.
Great business acumen he does NOT have.
Whether he "leaned" on Schoen (regarding Jones) or not, will not be relevant if they go with Jones next year and he bombs.
Seats will be empty, people will be calling for the heads of the GM and HC and John will just sit upstairs and say "it wasn't me!"
That's been the business model for sometime now. BW and Terps have been on the money on that point!
Really well done. I felt like I could have read that on the Athletic. You laid out the situation perfectly. While I am at heart a Daniel Jones fan, the "Go Terps" argument is pretty damning. While I like the guy, I think we all have to admit we need to move on. Too many things would have to fall perfectly into place for Jones to be a successful QB in this specific situation. The QB hell is that if some of those things fell somewhat into place and Jones, whenever he can play, does enough to keep the "what if" glimmer of hope alive... that's the trap. Time to start over. He can go be successful in a more perfect situation, if there is one.
The risk is too high to pass on a young QB in the draft. But obviously, there’s a huge need for talent upgrades beyond the QB spot. You’re right about the fans being sick of things of course. My fandom has gone from white hot, “don’t plan anything on Fall Sundays!” To “let’s find something interesting to do “ on Fall Sundays.
I'm curious as to how they arrived at the contract
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
RE: I'm curious as to how they arrived at the contract
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
RE: I'm curious as to how they arrived at the contract
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
I really think they wanted Barkley done so they could tag Jones, if necessary.
This is what I think is going happen, not what I think should.
Surgery goes well.
Daniel does everything possible known to man to be cleared for contact by Late August.
He will be throwing soon.
He is in the facility every day.
He is organizing practices with teammates and they ALL show up.
Giants draft a QB in the first round.
Jones looks great by August. Arm looks stronger, all that shit. Teammates and coaches will be praising his work and marveling at his recovery.
He will start.
Just like they did to Eli when they drafted Jones, they will tell Jones he has to win.
If the OL isn't in shambles, I am going suggest he does win.
I think Jones eventually injures himself in 2024 and it is done. The rookie starts and we never go back.
Listen, this is not Madden.
They are not cutting Jones. Those that want that expose themselves as trolls.
If Jones is healthy by the start of the season ,even if Maye, Williams or Daniels is on the roster, it will not mean Mara is pulling the strings, that is the way of the NFL.
RE: I'm curious as to how they arrived at the contract
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
IMO - that was the ownership's push.
The opt out was the stipulation Schoen/Daboll pushed for.
In my eyes - I think it's Chris Mara vs. team Schoen/Daboll for control of the roster with key players.
Not an uptick in production, when you're down to your 3rd QB.
This observation continently ignores the addition of Thomas Pugh and Schmitz in to Online with a healthy Saquon. It also ignores the caliber of competition
You want to move on from Jones, fine, find a better argument
I simply think they said to themselves “We are going to evaluate a full season”.
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
It seems Schoen and Daboll felt that Jones had mastered the beginners exam and now they were ready to go full throttle with him with more weapons in place and he didn’t answer the bell. Obviously they had a brutal schedule and some injuries but at the end of the day Jones wasn’t good enough AND hurt his neck again in the process.
It backfired. It happens. But I’m not ready to say that they made a some colossal mistake. They were somewhat measured even in the contract they finally gave him. They must pivot now. I keep making the comparison to Cohen with the Scherzer and Verlander deals. He went for it and then realized the plan had bombed and moved off quickly. NYG must do the same here.
They arrived at a mostly 2 year contract because the Giants were picking 25th in the draft, had just made the playoffs, and Jones was reason 1A why they did.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
You literally just said if you miss on a high QB draft pick, it will really set the franchise back. How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
Four years so far.
I would argue that it didn't need to be that long. The Giants had a shot at Tua and Herbert a year later. Obviously they passed, but the opportunity to pivot was there. And they had a shot at Fields a year after that. Again, they passed (and it may well have been justified) but they had the opportunity. And they were in position to take a QB in 2022 if they were so inclined, but none were worth the investment.
Which is actually, IMO, the bigger risk with getting your QB choice wrong (including deciding not to make a choice): you don't know when the opportunity to pursue a new QB will align with the availability of a QB that you like.
The setback isn't getting your QB wrong. The setback is holding out hope that you didn't get it wrong, and skipping over the next few chances while you wait for need and opportunity to intersect again.
Well written Eric. It's a good summary of where we've been and where we are. I hope the team reads it. They (and I mean ownership when I say this) need to take a long look at themselves and how they run the team.
One thing I'll add about the reference to me specifically - I didn't dislike Jones from the start. I was taken with his Duke pro day (particularly in comparison to Haskins, who was popular here), and I thought the team needed to move on from Eli. Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
Anyway I liked Jones initially and wanted him to start from opening day in 2019. My reservations with him developed as I watched him play that season. I always had an open mind on Daniel Jones - he made up my mind with his play, and nothing more.
RE: RE: I'm curious as to how they arrived at the contract
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
Mara loves the kid, for reasons I’ll never understand. He definitely weighed in. Hell, he did it publicly multiple times with the media where he was fawning all over him.
They arrived at a mostly 2 year contract because the Giants were picking 25th in the draft, had just made the playoffs, and Jones was reason 1A why they did.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I get what you're saying. But I bet you if Barkley had agreed to a very favorable contract before FA opened, DJ would have been tagged instead. Schoen was guided by the position rather than the player (IMO), and may have ceded a bit more ground on DJ than he would have liked because he fundamentally felt more comfortable with a slight overcommitment at the QB position instead of the RB position.
as I said in the article, if it was a Schoen and Daboll decision alone, Mara and Tisch should be pretty pissed.
People here can dismiss the Minnesota playoff game all they want, but very few teams are moving off a guy with that type of road playoff game fresh in their minds. Especially not when the full season was more or less a test that the player in question passed if grading overall.
And as far as Jones's status heading into last offseason, in places other then BBI, NY sports talk radio, and general football discussions, it was pretty widely accepted what the Giants should do. There were many teams in the market for a QB and the feeling was Jones would have gotten picked up somewhere. That's just the truth.
whether a QB entering his sixth year is the answer. Just think about that - going into his sixth season...
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
Also, the bad OL has been here for those 5 years, the bad receivers have been here for those 5 years, multiple coaching changes have been here for those 5 years. Is this a clue to what Mara meant when he said, "we did enough to ruin this kid." I know, in the hate DJ camp, these are excuses but to any reasonable person these are facts. Now, the hate group will come out with their facts, and cite some of DJs stats, but a lot of those negatives are due to what I stated above. Hey, has he been great no but he has performed under difficult circumstances. IMO, any other QB, even those considered elite, could not have fared better in the same situation.
They arrived at a mostly 2 year contract because the Giants were picking 25th in the draft, had just made the playoffs, and Jones was reason 1A why they did.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I'm not as much a believer in Jones as you Ryan but this is a solid post and I think you're 100% right.
as I said in the article, if it was a Schoen and Daboll decision alone, Mara and Tisch should be pretty pissed.
People here can dismiss the Minnesota playoff game all they want, but very few teams are moving off a guy with that type of road playoff game fresh in their minds. Especially not when the full season was more or less a test that the player in question passed if grading overall.
And as far as Jones's status heading into last offseason, in places other then BBI, NY sports talk radio, and general football discussions, it was pretty widely accepted what the Giants should do. There were many teams in the market for a QB and the feeling was Jones would have gotten picked up somewhere. That's just the truth.
No one is dismissing the Minn playoff game. If anything, it is overblown by a wide margin.
The game that seemingly gets dismissed too often (including the Giants) was the next one.
Not an uptick in production, when you're down to your 3rd QB.
This observation continently ignores the addition of Thomas Pugh and Schmitz in to Online with a healthy Saquon. It also ignores the caliber of competition
You want to move on from Jones, fine, find a better argument
Pugh has been a net negative in pass pro, and Jones had Waller while DeVito has not. Thomas is playing with a sprained MCL and isn't quite up to his all-pro level. Barkley also seems to be a bit banged up as well (which is the nature of playing RB in the NFL - you're going to be banged up in the second half of the season most years).
You can do this across the board. For the most part, it's the same team and same scheme. Arguing on the fringes when you're comparing a 5th year $40M QB to an UDFA rookie is kind of an indictment of the former no matter how you slice it, IMO.
had to fight literally to the last hour on a contract with Jones should be telling to anyone who looked at it, even speculatively.
It's clear to some degree Schoen and Daboll respected the work Jones put in, but don't trust the body of work or consistency enough to see "franchise guy", thus they overpaid on front end of deal. There weren't any immediate pivots off Jones or upgrade alternatives. Jimmy G? Thats the ghost of Daniel Jones right there.
Most folks in NFL were stunned Jones got about 40-41m est, and felt the 28-32m range was more than fair per season, because in reality it is a 2 year guarantee only. I strongly suspect Jones team were trying to hardball a 3rd year in with guarantees.
whether a QB entering his sixth year is the answer. Just think about that - going into his sixth season...
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
Also, the bad OL has been here for those 5 years, the bad receivers have been here for those 5 years, multiple coaching changes have been here for those 5 years. Is this a clue to what Mara meant when he said, "we did enough to ruin this kid." I know, in the hate DJ camp, these are excuses but to any reasonable person these are facts. Now, the hate group will come out with their facts, and cite some of DJs stats, but a lot of those negatives are due to what I stated above. Hey, has he been great no but he has performed under difficult circumstances. IMO, any other QB, even those considered elite, could not have fared better in the same situation.
It's cute that you think you're one of the "reasonable person[s]."
This is what I think is going happen, not what I think should.
Surgery goes well.
Daniel does everything possible known to man to be cleared for contact by Late August.
He will be throwing soon.
He is in the facility every day.
He is organizing practices with teammates and they ALL show up.
Giants draft a QB in the first round.
Jones looks great by August. Arm looks stronger, all that shit. Teammates and coaches will be praising his work and marveling at his recovery.
He will start.
Just like they did to Eli when they drafted Jones, they will tell Jones he has to win.
If the OL isn't in shambles, I am going suggest he does win.
I think Jones eventually injures himself in 2024 and it is done. The rookie starts and we never go back.
Listen, this is not Madden.
They are not cutting Jones. Those that want that expose themselves as trolls.
If Jones is healthy by the start of the season ,even if Maye, Williams or Daniels is on the roster, it will not mean Mara is pulling the strings, that is the way of the NFL.
had to fight literally to the last hour on a contract with Jones should be telling to anyone who looked at it, even speculatively.
It's clear to some degree Schoen and Daboll respected the work Jones put in, but don't trust the body of work or consistency enough to see "franchise guy", thus they overpaid on front end of deal. There weren't any immediate pivots off Jones or upgrade alternatives. Jimmy G? Thats the ghost of Daniel Jones right there.
Most folks in NFL were stunned Jones got about 40-41m est, and felt the 28-32m range was more than fair per season, because in reality it is a 2 year guarantee only. I strongly suspect Jones team were trying to hardball a 3rd year in with guarantees.
What are you talking about? That deal was graded somewhere around a B+/A for the Giants here on BBI.
Well written Eric. It's a good summary of where we've been and where we are. I hope the team reads it. They (and I mean ownership when I say this) need to take a long look at themselves and how they run the team.
One thing I'll add about the reference to me specifically - I didn't dislike Jones from the start. I was taken with his Duke pro day (particularly in comparison to Haskins, who was popular here), and I thought the team needed to move on from Eli. Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
Anyway I liked Jones initially and wanted him to start from opening day in 2019. My reservations with him developed as I watched him play that season. I always had an open mind on Daniel Jones - he made up my mind with his play, and nothing more.
To be fully transparent here... those arguments were not all yours, I just used you as what I thought would be a funny counterweight to the "John Mara defense" since you've been the most vocal. So I grouped all of the key negative arguments under your name. Don't sue me for defamation! ;)
This is what I think is going happen, not what I think should.
Surgery goes well.
Daniel does everything possible known to man to be cleared for contact by Late August.
He will be throwing soon.
He is in the facility every day.
He is organizing practices with teammates and they ALL show up.
Giants draft a QB in the first round.
Jones looks great by August. Arm looks stronger, all that shit. Teammates and coaches will be praising his work and marveling at his recovery.
He will start.
Just like they did to Eli when they drafted Jones, they will tell Jones he has to win.
If the OL isn't in shambles, I am going suggest he does win.
I think Jones eventually injures himself in 2024 and it is done. The rookie starts and we never go back.
Listen, this is not Madden.
They are not cutting Jones. Those that want that expose themselves as trolls.
If Jones is healthy by the start of the season ,even if Maye, Williams or Daniels is on the roster, it will not mean Mara is pulling the strings, that is the way of the NFL.
The part I bolded above is an enormous risk for the Giants. DJ has significant injury guarantees for 2025 and leaving the transition in the hands of fate/health could prove VERY costly for the Giants' 2025 cap outlook.
A lot of fans talk about the disadvantages that DJ has had to face in his time here with the Giants. Let's see how many will be willing to recognize the disadvantage the new QB will have to face when he has a roster that has a significant dead money gap to overcome relative to his opponents' rosters.
write up. Nice work Eric! It is sad we are in this situation. I have been in the boat of his supporting cast sucks. I mean if you put him on SF right now and healthy he would look really good. He has shown when he has time he can be good. This year is probably the worst OL play I have ever seen and that is saying something as we have sucked for soooo long. However, the problem isn't fixing the OL and getting a legit #1 WR anymore. Two neck injuries, hamstring, concussion, ACL, ankle, etc. You can't rely on him staying healthy. Especially when he is at his best running an RPO. We have to take a QB in round one or two this year no matter what. I still feel there is no way he doesn't start the year but I don't think he will get past game 6 unless we are looking good and at least 4-2.
The draft is going to be crazy and when we win at least 1-2 more games this year and pick 10th it will either cost a lot to move up or we may reach at 10 and everyone freaks out.
Excellent DJ disseration.. but ya fuhgeddabout Devito
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
They arrived at a mostly 2 year contract because the Giants were picking 25th in the draft, had just made the playoffs, and Jones was reason 1A why they did.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I'm not as much a believer in Jones as you Ryan but this is a solid post and I think you're 100% right.
He is our NJ Italian Tom Brady that will take us to the promise land. /s
My neice called me the other day and was like this guy is our future. I can understand it... We just want some hope and right now at the QB position we don't really have much.
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
Mac Jones is not a dual threat. Week 9 isn't the playoffs. I know you don't want to concede the point.
They arrived at a mostly 2 year contract because the Giants were picking 25th in the draft, had just made the playoffs, and Jones was reason 1A why they did.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I smarter GM applied the Franchise Tag because Jones's 2022 performance was good, not great. One good performance should not have merited such a large reward.
So, make him do it again because we were willing to do it once before when we declined the 5th year option.
Well written Eric. It's a good summary of where we've been and where we are. I hope the team reads it. They (and I mean ownership when I say this) need to take a long look at themselves and how they run the team.
One thing I'll add about the reference to me specifically - I didn't dislike Jones from the start. I was taken with his Duke pro day (particularly in comparison to Haskins, who was popular here), and I thought the team needed to move on from Eli. Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
Anyway I liked Jones initially and wanted him to start from opening day in 2019. My reservations with him developed as I watched him play that season. I always had an open mind on Daniel Jones - he made up my mind with his play, and nothing more.
To be fully transparent here... those arguments were not all yours, I just used you as what I thought would be a funny counterweight to the "John Mara defense" since you've been the most vocal. So I grouped all of the key negative arguments under your name. Don't sue me for defamation! ;)
Ha no worries. Thanks for being a conduit to the team.
Excellent analysis and summation Eric, well done sir
I have been in the Jones camp, and still have a ray of hope that with some help he can become the man behind center for a few more years. That said, I am not opposed to drafting a QB early if its the guy they really want, no matter the price. If they screw it up however, we'll be worse off than we are now. As I said, I hope Jones can make it back, and be the player we all hope him to be, but insurance on the bench learning the ropes is never a bad thing knowing the fragility and achievements, or lack thereof, of Jones thus far. But we also have to realize that even if we do draft the next coming of Simms, Eli, Conerly or Tittle, we'll need to draft and recruit a better o line, if not I'm afraid of a repeated outcome.
RE: RE: RE: I'm curious as to how they arrived at the contract
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
Mara loves the kid, for reasons I’ll never understand. He definitely weighed in. Hell, he did it publicly multiple times with the media where he was fawning all over him.
He loves him b/c he played a part in picking him...is my guess.
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
I don't think it whitewashed it. This is just my opinion but coming off that season with what we played with, we should have been better this year. From the standpoint of a really good rookie center improvement, Consistent OGs, you are hoping Neal made improvements, a big-time weapon in Waller, added speed WRs like Paris Campbell/Hyatt, really good training camps, etc You kind of expect that we would progress second year in the system with all those hopes for improvement. Sadly none of that panned out with exception of the center probably. So sad that this is where we are.
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
Mac Jones is not a dual threat. Week 9 isn't the playoffs. I know you don't want to concede the point.
Daniel Jones isn't a dual threat either. All he does well is run.
Daniel Jones isn't a dual threat either. All he does well is run.
And Eagles showed the entire NFL last year how to shut down his running. So he's not even that great at running anymore since he is just a straight line speed guy (Forest Gump) and not Lamar Jackson
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
Mac Jones is not a dual threat. Week 9 isn't the playoffs. I know you don't want to concede the point.
I don't want to conceded that week 9 isn't the playoffs? Ummm, yes I know it is not the playoffs. I concede that excellent argument to you, sir.
Now can you concede the point that even bad QBs put up very good numbers against the 32nd ranked pass defense in the NFL in 2022?
Or does the fact that it was a playoff game suddenly make their defense more formidable?
whether a QB entering his sixth year is the answer. Just think about that - going into his sixth season...
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
Also, the bad OL has been here for those 5 years, the bad receivers have been here for those 5 years, multiple coaching changes have been here for those 5 years. Is this a clue to what Mara meant when he said, "we did enough to ruin this kid." I know, in the hate DJ camp, these are excuses but to any reasonable person these are facts. Now, the hate group will come out with their facts, and cite some of DJs stats, but a lot of those negatives are due to what I stated above. Hey, has he been great no but he has performed under difficult circumstances. IMO, any other QB, even those considered elite, could not have fared better in the same situation.
Here's the line of demarcation on Jones: you believe he's been part of the problem or a victim of it.
If polled I'm sure nearly 100% of BBI would agree the entire team has been bad since 2019. The "hate group" calls them excuses because they're used to excuse (hah see how that works?) his poor performance instead of placing an iota of blame on DJ himself.
It was practically at the point where if he threw an interception it would be blamed on the relative humidity being too high in the stadium, or the wind was blowing out of the east instead of the north.
the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
That's a good point and I think an important one. The year the team is stuck with Jones' highest guaranteed money, don't make that the same year to start a 1st round QB's contract.
Another way to put it would be, should the team be deciding on the next QB's fifth year option after the guy has played through four season (or most of) or three or less seasons.
the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
did NOT do in 2022. What matters is the 2nd neck injury AND the ACL. It would be the height of idiocy to bet the team's future on a QB who is a TREMENDOUS injury risk, whose next one could disable him for life.
Any reasonable person HAS to see it that way. If Schoen doesn't, then he's not the right guy for the job and will probably be updating his resume by April of 2025.
did NOT do in 2022. What matters is the 2nd neck injury AND the ACL. It would be the height of idiocy to bet the team's future on a QB who is a TREMENDOUS injury risk, whose next one could disable him for life.
Any reasonable person HAS to see it that way. If Schoen doesn't, then he's not the right guy for the job and will probably be updating his resume by April of 2025.
I think most people are saying that... You don't need to yell it out.
had to fight literally to the last hour on a contract with Jones should be telling to anyone who looked at it, even speculatively.
It's clear to some degree Schoen and Daboll respected the work Jones put in, but don't trust the body of work or consistency enough to see "franchise guy", thus they overpaid on front end of deal. There weren't any immediate pivots off Jones or upgrade alternatives. Jimmy G? Thats the ghost of Daniel Jones right there.
Most folks in NFL were stunned Jones got about 40-41m est, and felt the 28-32m range was more than fair per season, because in reality it is a 2 year guarantee only. I strongly suspect Jones team were trying to hardball a 3rd year in with guarantees.
This to me is one of the more interesting aspects of what happened. Schoen clearly did have a walk away number, and did not want to make the longer term commitment. If the deal had been done around the 30-35m number everyone sort of imagined before the end of the season/playoffs, I dont think even now it would be looked at as so crazy. That's what a starter costs. But it's hard not wonder what the internal deliberations were. Was this Schoen and Daboll convinced Jones was the guy? Was this Mara making clear they should go the extra mile? That question of the internal evaluation of Jones still seems like the real mystery.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss
How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
No one has said it's the QB only. Cease. And, you're free to skip these threads.
Many continue with the out of context posts here everyday. The OL play has been terrible and that is why we were or are ranked last in the league for run and pass protection. Come on stop with cease.
Unless we believe Jones is lifting a Lombardi in the future
it's all really moot to dissect it much further. Any poster you read saying it's all on the QB isn't worth acknowledging as one who understands football.
OL stinks, so does Jones, "weapons" under-performing and weak, etc.
the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Would you trade Daniel Jones for Mac Jones? Mac had a better game against MIN last year and looked good against PHI week 1 this year.
is held back by the offensive line. It is a mess and has been to some extent for the entire time Jones has been here. Of course that impacts the production of the team.
But it is possible to tell the difference between a sack resulting from a guard whiffing on a block from a sack because the QB failed to identify a blitz or get the ball out on time. You can tell the difference between a pass on the money that was dropped by a WR and one that landed 3 yards in front of him. You can still evaluate a QB by watching the games.
Jones had a great game against Minnesota largely because he did not get pressured because their defense sucked. It is the same reason Mac Jones lit them up. Anyone QB in the NFL can produce when he has time and open receivers. But that is an unusual circumstance in the NFL which is what many of us are saying.
The Minnesota game is an outlier in his career. He gets full kudos for playing well in that game, but if you want to call it a historic performance (as many here do) you have to follow that with the fact that it was against an historically poor defense.
tl:dr - The performance we saw from Jones in Minnesota simply isn't regularly repeatable for him.
Given the high picks in the 2024 draft, and the prospects available, there may be no better time to get their next QB. It's fluid and might not align either, of course.
They could draft the wrong QB again, there's no protection against it. But, they need to admit the QB mistake and move off it, otherwise this franchise is stuck in the mud. This decision precedes any other roster decision, no matter all the other holes.
Hey JC, I don't disagree at all. I would have to think they are drafting a QB. But as you said - May be no better time - who can say? We don't even know where we are picking yet, or who will be available at our slot. If they have conviction that whichever QB is available when we pick, they will take him. If they are in love with one of the top 3 guys I am guessing we will see a trade up. But it's entirely possible none of those scenarios come to fruition in this draft as well. It is what it is, I just hope to GOD they keep drafting better and finally start fielding a better overall team. Or start coaching guys up. This team is just not good, overall, especially on the offensive side of the ball.
guaranteed for Jones next year are that he will be expensive and hurt. Even if he pushed to get back for the opener he likely wont be all the way back until 2025.
There is no way Daboll would let it all ride on Jones coming back and playing well. There needs to be something else.
the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Overcoming a bad OL is really difficult for any QB, I think that's fair. I also think it's almost impossible for a mediocre or worse QB to overcome just about any adverse circumstances. So a mediocre QB will make a bad OL look historically bad. A mediocre QB will make a journeyman WR corps look like they've never played football before. A mediocre QB will make accomplished coaches look like they're lost at sea.
And what makes it even more difficult to assess is when the QB's deficiencies aren't really physical. It's easy to see when a QB is a statue in the pocket and can't escape pressure. It's easy to see when a QB has a weak arm and can't make all the throws. Those sorts of flaws jump off the screen.
But as I mentioned yesterday, when the QB's fatal flaw isn't that he does anything wrong, but that it just takes him 0.3 seconds longer to do it, that's not so obvious. But that 0.3 seconds makes the OL look worse because the pressure gets there in that fraction of a second. It makes the receivers look bad because the defenders who get beaten on the break can recover in that fraction of a second.
Couple that with a reluctance to throw with anticipation and replace it with a preference for safer throws underneath, and now you're not only asking your QB to play faster than he's capable of, you're asking him to do it more often than his counterparts because he lacks the benefit of the chunk plays that lead to quicker scoring drives. So now your QB isn't doing anything obviously wrong, but somehow you're ending up with field goals instead of touchdowns.
Indecisiveness and slow processing might be the worst fatal flaw that a QB can possess because that QB won't obviously be at fault, but it is his fault. And that QB will look great in practice and in training camp because those flaws aren't exposed in those circumstances. And that QB will put up great numbers against horrible defenses because what makes them horrible is that they also take too long to react. Those horrible defenses are horrible because the extra 0.3 seconds don't result in pressure for them, and because their DBs don't recover in those 0.3 seconds.
DJ is, physically, everything you might ask for in a QB. And his mental deficiencies aren't exposed against bad defenses, because those deficiencies are on such a thin margin to begin with. But the upside is capped. And a championship is always going to be just out of reach when your QB is just a tick too slow and only has one reaction (run) to off-script scenarios.
RE: Unless we believe Jones is lifting a Lombardi in the future
it's all really moot to dissect it much further. Any poster you read saying it's all on the QB isn't worth acknowledging as one who understands football.
OL stinks, so does Jones, "weapons" under-performing and weak, etc.
Who ever said it's all on the QB? But it's more than fair to observe that functional QB play helps the OL. Many who still back Jones won't acknowledge this. Instead they say *improved* line play for Taylor/DeVito is explained by Pugh and others, and nothing to do with QB performance. At every turn we get excuses for Jones. Why is Jones so unlucky all the time? The OL is always uniquely bad for him, only. If only he had Justin Pugh....
the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Would you trade Daniel Jones for Mac Jones? Mac had a better game against MIN last year and looked good against PHI week 1 this year.
If contracts were equal then no I wouldn't. I think DJ is the better player by a good amount, but if I could trade away DJ's contract for Mac Jones I absolutely would.
Look, I know I am biased more towards liking him better than you guys do, but I do 100% think DJ was in an impossible situation when AT went down and they just decided to stick Ezeudu in there at LT. Look at what happened to Mahomes in the Super Bowl when saddled with a makeshift offensive line? That line was terrible, and it made Mahomes look human. It matters, it matters a LOT. And that's the kind of offensive line play I witnessed at the beginning of this year. Ezeudu misses a block that essentially eliminates Andrew Thomas AND Gano for us. That's horrible enough, but then they start him at LT? When they kept Peart as the swing? The OL was disastrous, literally the 1st few games of the year. Then Saquon goes out as well. It's not some mystery to me that DJ went backwards after that.
But I get it. I honestly will be shocked to hell if we don't draft a QB in this draft. I don't see how they can't, even if Devito plays lights out, and they keep Taylor.
Do you want to apply to apply your quote below to the last futile seasons of Eli Manning… that he was just a mediocrity that made a bad OL look historically bad?
“So a mediocre QB will make a bad OL look historically bad. A mediocre QB will make a journeyman WR corps look like they've never played football before. A mediocre QB will make accomplished coaches look like they're lost at sea.”
The Giants have (again) won just enough games to take themselves out of the running for just drafting one of the top 2 QBs.
If you give up the draft capital to draft Maye or Williams, you forgo fixing the OL again -- at least through the draft. Most available FA OLs are not starter-quality.
Then, if you fail to fix the OL, AGAIN, how do you put a rookie QB back there to take the kind of beating DJ's gotten? You'll ruin him FAST.
Jones is back next year because of the contract, regardless. IMO, he should start ahead of any rookie QB until the OL can protect better. Pay Jones to take the lumps.
QBs drafted later than round one have an even lower chances of becoming successful starters than the 1st rounders. Wasting a 2nd rounder on another Lauletta or Webb seems foolhardy with so many other holes to fix.
If they can't get one of the top QBs, I'd forgo drafting a QB this year, and address the other problems.
Thus, these are the possibilities I see:
If they go ALL IN to get Maye or Williams, they better break the bank on the best OLs they can get in FA (assuming good ones even make it to market). Then start Jones, regardless.
If they don't trade up for Maye or Williams, they should NOT, (IMO), pick a low first round/high second round QB. Get a vet backup (Taylor should go. He's more brittle than Jones). They could do this, but it seems like folly to me.
TRADE DOWN for more picks if possible, and fix as much as they can in the draft. (They won't, but I'd cluster draft OLs and pass rushers till they get it right).
Let Jones start next year, regardless -- they're paying him to start. Get his replacement when they can -- and when a replacement has a better chance to succeed -- with better protection and weapons.
The Giants don't need a new bridge guy. If you think Jones isn't the long term answer, Jones IS the bridge guy.
What are your thoughts on Sy's most recent review where he talked about the strides of the OL? Where should Schoen invest in the OL?
He's not nor is the organization giving up on Neal yet it appears. He was only drafted in 2022 7th overall. He's the right tackle. The left tackle was signed to a lucrative deal a few months ago. The center was just drafted in the 2nd round.
I'd expect swing tackle to be addressed, an interior guard signed and some depth later in the draft.
When people talk about extremes to fixing the OL, it's about development of what they have. As Sy has said, it's improving.
Not an uptick in production, when you're down to your 3rd QB.
This observation continently ignores the addition of Thomas Pugh and Schmitz in to Online with a healthy Saquon. It also ignores the caliber of competition
You want to move on from Jones, fine, find a better argument
Pugh has been a net negative in pass pro, and Jones had Waller while DeVito has not. Thomas is playing with a sprained MCL and isn't quite up to his all-pro level. Barkley also seems to be a bit banged up as well (which is the nature of playing RB in the NFL - you're going to be banged up in the second half of the season most years).
You can do this across the board. For the most part, it's the same team and same scheme. Arguing on the fringes when you're comparing a 5th year $40M QB to an UDFA rookie is kind of an indictment of the former no matter how you slice it, IMO.
The general consensus by the football people I ve heard speak on the topic is the Giants O line is better, than it was earlier in the year
You say that s not the case, ok, I think you re wrong.
I don’t think the Giants would have come anywhere near the success they had last season if DeVito were playing in place of Jones. If you want to contend there is minimal difference in the two, then I suppose you would disagree with that take as well.
Schoen determined that Jones’ play last season warranted a contract, I agree
For this season it has turned out to be a bad decision, we ll see what next season brings
your 3:47(?) post was something else. I’d add DJ’s lack of pocket presence and the fact that once he decides to make the pass he is slow getting out to his list of problems - both limit the offense in different ways - but wouldn’t want to ruin the perfection of your post.
Look, I know I am biased more towards liking him better than you guys do, but I do 100% think DJ was in an impossible situation when AT went down and they just decided to stick Ezeudu in there at LT. Look at what happened to Mahomes in the Super Bowl when saddled with a makeshift offensive line? That line was terrible, and it made Mahomes look human.
I think people need to rewatch that Super Bowl to see some of the superhuman plays Mahomes made to keep that game remotely competitive while KC's defense was getting run off the goddamn field in the 2nd quarter.
Yes, Mahomes didn't have a good game. Yes the OL situation was bad. If someone else was playing QB that day the Chiefs wouldn't have gained a yard. The fact that great QBs occasionally have bad games is not evidence that Daniel Jones (who occasionally has great games) is anywhere near that class.
I would expect Schoen to target a legit guard with either 2nd round pick. I'm talking no screwing around, a guy that can come in and impact the OL right away. And then I'd also expect Schoen to sign some value OTs to compete with Neal and swing tackle/depth for Thomas.
That way we are entering 2024 with legit talent on the OL and not just Thomas and a bunch of possibilities.
I know we are supposed to giver Ezeudu and McKethan a bit more time to develop considering they were mid rounders and have dealt with injuries, but they don't appear to have that much on field talent.
What are your thoughts on Sy's most recent review where he talked about the strides of the OL? Where should Schoen invest in the OL?
He's not nor is the organization giving up on Neal yet it appears. He was only drafted in 2022 7th overall. He's the right tackle. The left tackle was signed to a lucrative deal a few months ago. The center was just drafted in the 2nd round.
I'd expect swing tackle to be addressed, an interior guard signed and some depth later in the draft.
When people talk about extremes to fixing the OL, it's about development of what they have. As Sy has said, it's improving.
You could be right about the actions the Giants take this off-season in regard to the OL.
As for Sy’s review, I found it highly informative. The one quibble I had is that Justin Pugh should have gotten a Dud award instead of Saquon Barkley.
I am growing a little worried about Sy’s running commentary on JMS having difficulty when he has to travel any distance. I don’t know what to make of that and I’m not sure if he can improve that aspect of his game.
IMO, the OL is only set at LT and C and that everything else is up in the air. I like the way Evan Neal run blocks and I believe he can pass block in a more confined area… that is why I am gung-ho at moving him inside. I guess the Giants can keep throwing him out there at RT and continue to cross their fingers. Assuming he isn’t moved inside, I believe the Giants need two brand new guards, with all the other current guards fighting for back-up rolls.
is who he is. After six years in the NFL, you can get a handle on a player. The problem is, he's been injury prone, and now has 2 neck injuries and an ACL. He's not going to get any faster, or learn to process any quicker.
The issue right now is the draft. What to do? If the Giants can't (or won't) pay the costs to get up to the top three selections, then I think there are only two other alternatives:
1) Hope that a QB drops in the draft into their range. That DOES happen (Lamar Jackson, for example). Teams do tend to out think themselves.
2) Save your top choices for rebulding the lines, and try to get a reclamation project. I think there are three QB's that are having horrible years, but could potentially come back to be quality NFL QB's under Daboll.
First would be Justin Fields. If Chicago drafts a QB, the Bears would listen to offers. I think he's a better version of Jones, and would thrive in NY.
Second, Mac Jones. No, I'm not kidding. This kid had all the qualities coming out of college, but the Pats did him no favors with their OC's (Judge???). Yes, he looks horrible now, but that's when you want to get him, when his value is low. I think he would be perfect for sitting behind Jones next year, while Daboll works on him.
Third, (hold your nose!) Zack Wilson. The Jets destroyed this guy, there's no way they can bring him back next year. But he has an arm, and he was considered a high draft choice coming out. Wilson has had HORRENDOUS OC's (Hackett sucks beyond belief, he's on there as a Rodgers buddy)Again, another QB Daboll could work magic on!
We've seen in Denver what good Offensive coach (Sean Payton) can do with a QB that was considered washed (Russell Wilson).
I'm not saying that these are the preferred ways to go, but I just want to point out there are other ways to go if the Giants don't have the ammunition to go up in the draft.
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
It would have required ownership to sign off on it.
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
And the reason they’ve never been better than 16th is because Saquon Barkley sucks? Or, because the entire team around Saquon Barkley has sucked for the past 6 seasons? Or, do you have some thing else in mind?
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
After a decade of losing the Giants not only make the playoffs but win a play off game.
You suggesting they should have allowed the two players most responsible for that success to walk is an unreasonable take.
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
It seems playoff wins by the giants vs Minnesota are fools gold. There was the nfc championship that the ravens coach said they were all farts and giggles about.
The general consensus by the football people I ve heard speak on the topic is the Giants O line is better, than it was earlier in the year
You say that s not the case, ok, I think you re wrong.
I'm not saying the OL isn't playing better. Certainly having even a damaged Thomas is better than his replacements were. But Pugh isn't really part of the improvement, in terms of pass protection. And I didn't refute you on Schmitz, although he's been up and down (as most rookies are).
I just don't think the OL is the entire story. If it were, then no one should ever be in favor of any QB contracts beyond a rookie deal, because they're all just passengers on the OL train.
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
Quote:
"I told Saquon we want him to be a Giant for his entire career," Mara told reporters at the NFL’s owners meetings in Phoenix, via ESPN. "He provides leadership, he's a great player and we'd like to be able to get something done with him at some point. The running back market is what it is right now, but I'm still hopeful at some point we will come to an agreement."
No one wanted Barkley out of the halls of 1925 Giants Way more than me. But when you see these public quotes by Mara, you can certainly understand why Team Barkley was so irritated by the contract talk...
get a QB in the draft. They cannot sell anyone that Jones will be back and be able to play without getting hurt again. I see it like the Packers did a few years ago when they drafted a QB to backup Rogers
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
And the reason they’ve never been better than 16th is because Saquon Barkley sucks? Or, because the entire team around Saquon Barkley has sucked for the past 6 seasons? Or, do you have some thing else in mind?
Where is the line drawn?
How do we decide who the guys are that are causing the suck and who the guys are that are victimized by it?
Seems like it's mostly driven by the fan favorites being victimized while the rest of the guys are the fault-bearers.
What are your thoughts on Sy's most recent review where he talked about the strides of the OL? Where should Schoen invest in the OL?
He's not nor is the organization giving up on Neal yet it appears. He was only drafted in 2022 7th overall. He's the right tackle. The left tackle was signed to a lucrative deal a few months ago. The center was just drafted in the 2nd round.
I'd expect swing tackle to be addressed, an interior guard signed and some depth later in the draft.
When people talk about extremes to fixing the OL, it's about development of what they have. As Sy has said, it's improving.
Improving from ranking last in the league is that some kind of joke. Get some new talent. Our competition in the NFC East is deep in the trenches. We tried to juggle the guys over the summer and it failed.
I’m more of a pro Jones than anti Jones guy, but your main point is spot on. Injury history alone, the Giants can’t rely on Jones and need to use one of their first three picks on a QB.
In the THE NEVER-ENDING DEBATE paragraph (should be five seasons):
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
And the reason they’ve never been better than 16th is because Saquon Barkley sucks? Or, because the entire team around Saquon Barkley has sucked for the past 6 seasons? Or, do you have some thing else in mind?
Where is the line drawn?
How do we decide who the guys are that are causing the suck and who the guys are that are victimized by it?
Seems like it's mostly driven by the fan favorites being victimized while the rest of the guys are the fault-bearers.
I honestly think there is plenty of blame to go around. We have holes in obvious places, and very little depth as it is... but Coaching should not get a pass, especially for the way preseason was handled. This team was not nearly ready for primetime this year. So many head-scratching roster decisions. If they were going to build off of last year, fine... but then do it... lol. Keep some continuity with the OL. Feliciano was no great shakes but he was better guard/center than Ben Bredeson. Why keep Lemieux and Peart and jettison those two? Made no sense. And anyway regardless, make your decisions/changes in camp and for Gods sakes play your new OL starters together in preseason for more than 5 minutes/ONE SERIES (against the freaking PANTHERS), especially when you know Dann Quinn and the Cowboys are coming to town. That unpreparedness caused a landslide on opening night that this team never recovered from... Mostly because it caused an injury to our arguably 2 best players on the team in the first drive of the game.
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
After a decade of losing the Giants not only make the playoffs but win a play off game.
You suggesting they should have allowed the two players most responsible for that success to walk is an unreasonable take.
The success was fleeting and somewhat apparent to see, making it a reasonable take.
Some decisions are tough ones in the moment, and not always easy for fans to understand. Or even guys that own football franchises. This was an example.
The general consensus by the football people I ve heard speak on the topic is the Giants O line is better, than it was earlier in the year
You say that s not the case, ok, I think you re wrong.
I'm not saying the OL isn't playing better. Certainly having even a damaged Thomas is better than his replacements were. But Pugh isn't really part of the improvement, in terms of pass protection. And I didn't refute you on Schmitz, although he's been up and down (as most rookies are).
I just don't think the OL is the entire story. If it were, then no one should ever be in favor of any QB contracts beyond a rookie deal, because they're all just passengers on the OL train.
It s not the whole story. I also understand Giants can’t go into next season with Daniel as the only legit starter. I just don’t think DeVito is the other guy.
The Jones draft pick may be the most maligned draft pick we've ever witnessed. Almost nobody understood it, and it is still widely considered a major reach. Then we doubled down to disastrous results out of the gates.
A triple-down would put fan apathy into another stratosphere.
I forgot what poster posed the ?, but it was along the lines of 'Can we win a Super Bowl with Daniel Jones?'
Sure, I guess its possible. Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco, & Nick Foles all won Super Bowls. But most Super Bowls are won with elite QBs, i.e. TB12, Mahomes, Montana, etc.
Daniel Jones will never be confused with the Montanas of the world. He's more in the Brad Johnson category.
He had a good season last year. He did help us get to the playoffs & played well in the WC game, though again...that Vikes defense was trash. But its pretty apparent that Dabs/Kafka designed an offensive game plan for him that had a time limit. Once defenses adjusted...well, it was over. And it speaks volume to me that both TT and DeVito played better this year than Jones.
To piggyback on Sean's comment, let's just move on. This is a failed experiment. I wish the kid the best going forward, but its over. Going into 2024 & hoping that he'll see the light in his SIXTH season...it ain't happening.
Would have liked to see Jones play the entire game against Vegas, and we likely beat the Jets if he’s the QB in that game, but whatever. Is what it is.
I have been racking my brain trying to come up with a Plan B and then it hit we. We should trade for this Mahomes guy I hear everyone talking about. I should think our #1 and those 2 seconds just might do it. KC could then restock their receiver corps. Win-win for everyone.
SFG, saying Taylor and DeVito are playing better than Jones needs a little bit of nuance.
OL is playing a lot better. And those QBs have not shown the playmaking that we saw against Arizona for a brief period.
DeVito has played Vegas, Dallas, Washington and New England. Not really counting the Jets game because he didn’t throw it.
DeVito threw 2 TDs against Dallas which is a part of the whole 7 TD argument. Well, he had 86 yards passing and a bad rating in that game as well.
Here’s the issue that you continue to ignore. It’s been said 1000 times but the fact any of us are having a debate as to WHY Taylor and DeVito have played better is a major issue. We can make excuses and say the OL is magically playing better or the schedule is softer all we want, Some of that may be true. But the bottom line is…we should not be debating why a UDFA rookie that was on the practice squad 3 weeks ago is playing better than our $40M 5th year franchise QB.
That shouldn’t just be alarming to some of us. It should be alarming to every Giants fan on the planet.
Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Eric in Li posted the example of Alex Smith as first round quarterback who was written off and resurrected his career.
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
I'm not answering your question. But wanted to let you know that at least Alex Smith was outstanding in college for Utah. His senior year he was 32/4, 9+YPA, 68% comp%. And Utah was in a major bowl. So, at least he showed high level play before he entered the NFL...
But it is possible to tell the difference between a sack resulting from a guard whiffing on a block from a sack because the QB failed to identify a blitz or get the ball out on time.
you can rarely figure all of this out based upon the TV broadcast. You need to see the entire field to know whether anyone was open at the time when the QB was getting sacked or in a "too-late-to-throw" situation. You also need to have a view of whether the QB's vision was blocked or passing lane was impacted by the pass rush.
So many things that coaches can figure out by watching all of the film angles that fans have no clue about.
In the end, I am sure there are plenty of situations where the QB is at fault but also many others where the opposite is true despite what fans may think from their couches.
BigBlueShock - do you remember the first Dallas, Seattle, SF, and Miami games?
As soon as Jones got the snap, he was under fire. For the majority of those games.
Kurt Warner went as far as to say that playing the QB position is impossible with the way that OL was playing at that time.
He didn’t help his cause this year at all but let’s be realistic about that part of it.
He was under siege a bunch, yes. He also left plays on the field, missed open receivers, contributed to some of the sacks, etc. I get it. The OL was bad. But 4 1/2 years of excuses have just completely worn me out. He’s absolutely been dealt a bad hand. And I’m just speaking for myself but I’m damned sick and tired of watching pathetic football with an occasional decent game against trash defenses. Not nearly all Jones’ fault at all but he’s had the longest leash and most excuses. I’m just tired of it.
RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Eric in Li posted the example of Alex Smith as first round quarterback who was written off and resurrected his career.
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
I'm not answering your question. But wanted to let you know that at least Alex Smith was outstanding in college for Utah. His senior year he was 32/4, 9+YPA, 68% comp%. And Utah was in a major bowl. So, at least he showed high level play before he entered the NFL...
and 0 winning seasons in his first 6 years in SF and 2 more INTs than TDs.
2011 year 7 (age 27) 13-3, 17 tds, 5 ints. harbough year 1 (nyg NFCCG loss).
regardless of what we think of jones, coming back healthy isn't a guarantee,
we all know the odds of 1st round rookie qbs busting,
if it were my job on the line, the obvious choice for me would be rostering 1 of each and hoping one works out. sort it out on the field. they cant ask for much better of a qb draft to find one they like.
RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
This is why there is so much issues on this site. People will discount Jones because he beat a bad Def Minny last year is the playoffs at their house. They will then turn around and say Devito played better than Jones when it is clear DeVito has much more time and this chart shows it. The OL was historically bad for Jones.
Then on the other side at what point does DJ get the blame here. He has had 5 years and hasn't been what we need him to be. He stares down WRs, gets hurt, and is slower to process than the NFL needs.
The thing is... both sides are right. I assume it is nonstop arguing because no one feels heard. That is what makes Eric's article so good. It lays it all out.
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
Not to worry. The new QB will make the OL better. We are set. Just add a new coach and plug in a FA and everything will jell.
Do you think Daniel Jones will put the Giants in contention for a championship over the next three years?
Knowing which QB wont get you to a championship doesnt get you all that far to finding the guy who will. maybe it gets you on the road but they should be there any way since jones is hurt.
Finding the QB who will get them to a championship is the hard part that people forget that kind of matters most.
So fucking sick of his argument that if Jones had better OL or receiving options he'd be so much better. The dude was drafted sixth overall. Perhaps-based on his draft status-he'd elevate others than the other way around? And STFU with this 'Well, his OL sucks'...so did the '11 Giants OL & Eli led us to a Lombardi. The Bengals OL sucked & Burrow was doing fine in this league before he got injured.
For the love of God, accept Jones for what he is...he's an average QB, at best.
I honestly can't believe we're discussing someone of his caliber going into his sixth season & still people are holding out hope. The ship has sailed.
So fucking sick of his argument that if Jones had better OL or receiving options he'd be so much better. The dude was drafted sixth overall. Perhaps-based on his draft status-he'd elevate others than the other way around? And STFU with this 'Well, his OL sucks'...so did the '11 Giants OL & Eli led us to a Lombardi. The Bengals OL sucked & Burrow was doing fine in this league before he got injured.
For the love of God, accept Jones for what he is...he's an average QB, at best.
I honestly can't believe we're discussing someone of his caliber going into his sixth season & still people are holding out hope. The ship has sailed.
Here, here. It's exhausting, this unnecessary psychodrama we find ourselves in
and 0 winning seasons in his first 6 years in SF and 2 more INTs than TDs.
2011 year 7 (age 27) 13-3, 17 tds, 5 ints. harbough year 1 (nyg NFCCG loss).
regardless of what we think of jones, coming back healthy isn't a guarantee,
we all know the odds of 1st round rookie qbs busting,
if it were my job on the line, the obvious choice for me would be rostering 1 of each and hoping one works out. sort it out on the field. they cant ask for much better of a qb draft to find one they like.
Figuring it out on the field is going to be complicated if Jones is PUP all off season.
and 0 winning seasons in his first 6 years in SF and 2 more INTs than TDs.
2011 year 7 (age 27) 13-3, 17 tds, 5 ints. harbough year 1 (nyg NFCCG loss).
regardless of what we think of jones, coming back healthy isn't a guarantee,
we all know the odds of 1st round rookie qbs busting,
if it were my job on the line, the obvious choice for me would be rostering 1 of each and hoping one works out. sort it out on the field. they cant ask for much better of a qb draft to find one they like.
Figuring it out on the field is going to be complicated if Jones is PUP all off season.
not really, then you get a first round pick who gets to take a ton of reps in the summer and gets a real chance to win a job. that possibility is very much part of the "sort it out on the field".
thats why i think they are going to invest a first and not just take some throwaway developmental guy who may or may not be that much different than devito. has devito played much different than levis, willis, ridder, howell, etc? his tools arent as good but performance wise id say no.
if jones makes it back healthy in time i think it's likely he'd be out a rookie but not impossible he doesnt. and even if you go in with 2 healthy as we've seen you may end up playing both if 1 gets hurt.
SFG, would you like to go over the OL and skill players from last season, and the Giants overall finish in the conference?
Can we stop acting like Jones has never lifted up the team?
Can we stop acting like Jones was only reason we won games? Barkley carried the offense more than Jones did in the first half. The defense had some real big games.
Jones played well at times last season. He was instrumental part of the reason they won some of those games. But he was not only one.
SFG, would you like to go over the OL and skill players from last season, and the Giants overall finish in the conference?
Can we stop acting like Jones has never lifted up the team?
Why does nobody else get any credit? What about the defense that only gave up over 20 points in 2 of the wins? What about Saqoun? What about Hodgins coming off of waivers and playing a big role down the stretch.
Why is it the team sucks, but Jones lifted them up? Daboll lifted them up last year. That’s who deserves a bulk of the credit
Ritchie James and tanner hudson are building on career years as well. Kyle Rudolph is living his best life as well as golden Tate. Myrick is looking at a pro bowl. John Ross, Dante petite, Kayden smith pharo cooper, cj board and Collin Johnson are all having big years. BIG TIME years. David sills and Marcus Johnson are having down years. Gotta keep it G, right, db?
Figuring it out on the field is going to be complicated if Jones is PUP all off season.
not really, then you get a first round pick who gets to take a ton of reps in the summer and gets a real chance to win a job. that possibility is very much part of the "sort it out on the field".
thats why i think they are going to invest a first and not just take some throwaway developmental guy who may or may not be that much different than devito. has devito played much different than levis, willis, ridder, howell, etc? his tools arent as good but performance wise id say no.
if jones makes it back healthy in time i think it's likely he'd be out a rookie but not impossible he doesnt. and even if you go in with 2 healthy as we've seen you may end up playing both if 1 gets hurt.
I think it's highly likely the Giants take a QB inside the top 40, and that player is competing with DeVito for the starting job in camp.
What's complicated is if Jones's recovery is at the medium-to-long end of the spectrum and he's PUP until mid-August/September.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
Eric in Li posted the example of Alex Smith as first round quarterback who was written off and resurrected his career.
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
I think we have too many holes for him to be successful here before he leaves. If he resurrects anywhere, I don't think it's in NY. FO would be insane not to try and move on at this point, especially based on injury history. But the draft is like a box of chocolates... no guarantee what we will get. That's why I care way Way WAY more about building a good roster, so that we are A) competitive no matter the signal caller AND B) Ready to strike WHEN our franchise QB is available. And who knows, maybe that somehow ends up being DJ anyway... LOL
RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
That’s pure bullshit. The OL dramatically improving over the course of the year is beyond question among rational ppl. Beyond injuries to both of our quality players. Those guys had no idea what they were doing for the first month of the season. They didn’t know their assignments. It was free runners in any obvious pass situation. The running game was nonexistent. Dabs ran his training camp in September. This team is completely unprepared for the season.
RE: RE: RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
That’s pure bullshit. The OL dramatically improving over the course of the year is beyond question among rational ppl. Beyond injuries to both of our quality players. Those guys had no idea what they were doing for the first month of the season. They didn’t know their assignments. It was free runners in any obvious pass situation. The running game was nonexistent. Dabs ran his training camp in September. This team is completely unprepared for the season.
So you agree, players play better when Jones isn't there. And then for some strange reason they start sucking again when he returns. And then when he's out, they play better again. It's so weird when that happens.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
1- too many factors, no way to predict. if he's healthy enough to prove he's their best qb he plays, but who knows when that is? the only scenario i can envision where they dont risk re-injury is if season is over and they know they are moving on.
2- if the rookie struggles and its early season, i think they go to jones when healthy. id imagine they set the expectation that jones will be qb when he's healthy figuring if the rookie happens to play well enough to bledsoe jones, that's a phenomenal "problem" to have.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
So you agree, players play better when Jones isn't there. And then for some strange reason they start sucking again when he returns. And then when he's out, they play better again. It's so weird when that happens.
Oh, producer/ debaser. A sad sack loser by any other name would smell as sweet.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
So you agree, players play better when Jones isn't there. And then for some strange reason they start sucking again when he returns. And then when he's out, they play better again. It's so weird when that happens.
Oh, producer/ debaser. A sad sack loser by any other name would smell as sweet.
Yes, the logical conclusion of your arguments don't sound great.
And I agree with the final assessment. If the Giants have the opportunity to draft a top flight quarterback, they should do it, though I'm not a fan of Caleb Williams. Too short. What irks me is the fact that while Mara certainly has a right to influence critical decisions, he seems to base those decisions on emotion. For years Jerry Reese wanted to draft a QB on the first round, convinced that Manning's lack of mobility and his wobbly passes were killing opportunities to win games, but Mara loved Eli and so Reese seethed and watched the Giants lose. And because Mara loves Jones, the Giants are stuck with a QB that cannot rise above mediocre personnel. Was Mara also responsible for the Giants passing on Micah Parsons because of "character issues"?
RE: So the story is over the course of Jones' career.
Just because everyone else has sucked doesn’t mean they shouldn’t move on from the guy who also isn’t good. It’s the only one that hasn’t changed, and it’s the most important out of any of those.
RE: RE: So the story is over the course of Jones' career.
Just because everyone else has sucked doesn’t mean they shouldn’t move on from the guy who also isn’t good. It’s the only one that hasn’t changed, and it’s the most important out of any of those.
Honestly - this is an accurate post. I think it’s time for both sides to acknowledge that Jones has been dealt a very bad hand AND is not the QB who can consistently lead us to where we need to be.
It’s nothing against him. Maybe a change of scenery may help. Maybe he needs a loaded team to be any good. I don’t know and it doesn’t matter anymore.
We need a new QB. We need better players around that QB. We need change.
And I agree with the final assessment. If the Giants have the opportunity to draft a top flight quarterback, they should do it, though I'm not a fan of Caleb Williams. Too short. What irks me is the fact that while Mara certainly has a right to influence critical decisions, he seems to base those decisions on emotion. For years Jerry Reese wanted to draft a QB on the first round, convinced that Manning's lack of mobility and his wobbly passes were killing opportunities to win games, but Mara loved Eli and so Reese seethed and watched the Giants lose. And because Mara loves Jones, the Giants are stuck with a QB that cannot rise above mediocre personnel. Was Mara also responsible for the Giants passing on Micah Parsons because of "character issues"?
Never heard that Reese was looking to draft a QB to replace Eli.
How many times does it need to said that one of Parson's coaches at PSU was on Judge's staff and told them Parson should not be drafted as he has issues.
the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Overcoming a bad OL is really difficult for any QB, I think that's fair. I also think it's almost impossible for a mediocre or worse QB to overcome just about any adverse circumstances. So a mediocre QB will make a bad OL look historically bad. A mediocre QB will make a journeyman WR corps look like they've never played football before. A mediocre QB will make accomplished coaches look like they're lost at sea.
And what makes it even more difficult to assess is when the QB's deficiencies aren't really physical. It's easy to see when a QB is a statue in the pocket and can't escape pressure. It's easy to see when a QB has a weak arm and can't make all the throws. Those sorts of flaws jump off the screen.
But as I mentioned yesterday, when the QB's fatal flaw isn't that he does anything wrong, but that it just takes him 0.3 seconds longer to do it, that's not so obvious. But that 0.3 seconds makes the OL look worse because the pressure gets there in that fraction of a second. It makes the receivers look bad because the defenders who get beaten on the break can recover in that fraction of a second.
Couple that with a reluctance to throw with anticipation and replace it with a preference for safer throws underneath, and now you're not only asking your QB to play faster than he's capable of, you're asking him to do it more often than his counterparts because he lacks the benefit of the chunk plays that lead to quicker scoring drives. So now your QB isn't doing anything obviously wrong, but somehow you're ending up with field goals instead of touchdowns.
Indecisiveness and slow processing might be the worst fatal flaw that a QB can possess because that QB won't obviously be at fault, but it is his fault. And that QB will look great in practice and in training camp because those flaws aren't exposed in those circumstances. And that QB will put up great numbers against horrible defenses because what makes them horrible is that they also take too long to react. Those horrible defenses are horrible because the extra 0.3 seconds don't result in pressure for them, and because their DBs don't recover in those 0.3 seconds.
DJ is, physically, everything you might ask for in a QB. And his mental deficiencies aren't exposed against bad defenses, because those deficiencies are on such a thin margin to begin with. But the upside is capped. And a championship is always going to be just out of reach when your QB is just a tick too slow and only has one reaction (run) to off-script scenarios.
Great Post GD.
THIS IS THE MUST READ POST OF THIS THREAD!
Others have said this before, including myself. But none of us have laid it out so plainly for anybody to see. This is what people mean when they say he processes too slowly.
I will say this. To those who are casual observers, or simply don't understand football, this problem is now visible. However, if you really watch the video, especially the all 22s, you can see the moment that he should have let the ball fly if he had the processing ability and was capable of the appropriate anticipation. I've seen numerous times where he had a lane to throw if he threw as the receiver was making his break. However, he waits to see that separation. But by the time the separation is obvious, the window is closed, either because lineman have their hands up, are coming to the sack, or a LB is in direct line. Jones then hesitates to throw in the next window when the receiver has crossed the blockage, but by that time the rush got there, or the DB recovered, or the safety has read Jones "staring" down his receiver and is closing. In other words, if you spend the effort and do the analysis, that which is not obvious at a casual view or is not obvious from the broadcast becomes obvious. Obvious enough that I do wonder about giving him the contract. Professional evaluators should have been able to see this flaw. This is a fatal flaw, and one in which I doubt that coaching can fix, other than scheming around it.
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
Absa-F*ing-lutely
Why people cannot see that building an offense around a RB just doesn't work in 2023, still amazes me.
RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
I don't think that char supports your assertion. In fact quite the opposite. It looks pretty damning against Jones.
Do you see that vertical line. That is the NFL average of time to throw. Yes the Giants are a bit to the left (wrong side) of that line. There are MANY teams further left than the Giants and significantly so.
That says the Giants OL was playing below average, but certainly not historically bad.
On the other hand, the Giants are near the bottom of times pressured. That difference between a little below average OL and league worst (or nearly so) times pressured is 100% on the QBs.
RE: RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
I don't think that char supports your assertion. In fact quite the opposite. It looks pretty damning against Jones.
Do you see that vertical line. That is the NFL average of time to throw. Yes the Giants are a bit to the left (wrong side) of that line. There are MANY teams further left than the Giants and significantly so.
That says the Giants OL was playing below average, but certainly not historically bad.
On the other hand, the Giants are near the bottom of times pressured. That difference between a little below average OL and league worst (or nearly so) times pressured is 100% on the QBs.
Sorry I missed the fact that there were 3 NYG icons for each QB...
I missed DJ being tucked down in the lower left.
either still hold out hope that Jones is THE guy, or that he was THE guy but now the injuries have derailed him...
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
The Star Players Daniel Jones Has Dragged Down (2019 - 2022)
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
The evidence is clearly there that Jones doesn't process quickly enough nor take the shots when they are there. Regardless of the awful offensive line, he's a one read player who offers versatility with his legs, which Daboll and Kafka were able to maximize in year one, as was Shurmur for a small period.
Best-case scenario for me is the Alex Smith/Mahomes situation where you draft a QB and have him sit for a year while Jones plays if he is healthy.
RE: RE: RE: So the story is over the course of Jones' career.
Just because everyone else has sucked doesn’t mean they shouldn’t move on from the guy who also isn’t good. It’s the only one that hasn’t changed, and it’s the most important out of any of those.
Honestly - this is an accurate post. I think it’s time for both sides to acknowledge that Jones has been dealt a very bad hand AND is not the QB who can consistently lead us to where we need to be.
It’s nothing against him. Maybe a change of scenery may help. Maybe he needs a loaded team to be any good. I don’t know and it doesn’t matter anymore.
We need a new QB. We need better players around that QB. We need change.
Been saying for years that two things can be true: the team around Jones has been bad and Jones at best is a mediocre QB. Some posters read that as I'm putting all the blame on Jones. I've never placed all blame on Jones, just tried to give him a share of the blame pie
either still hold out hope that Jones is THE guy, or that he was THE guy but now the injuries have derailed him...
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
Haha! this is great Mcl
"...last vestiges of the Gettleman stink."
RE: So the story is over the course of Jones' career.
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
Where is the line drawn?
Why are all of these guys bad football players but you won't even consider that the QB is ALSO bad?
You must be a bad fan. How can you denigrate all of these guys? You're supposed to root for all the players, remember?
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
RE: RE: The Star Players Daniel Jones Has Dragged Down (2019 - 2022)
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
Where is the line drawn?
Why are all of these guys bad football players but you won't even consider that the QB is ALSO bad?
You must be a bad fan. How can you denigrate all of these guys? You're supposed to root for all the players, remember?
Even more, all evidence suggests that Hiatt, Wan'Dale, Waller, and Slayton are probably the best receiving core that Giants have had in the Jones era and yet he was the worst of the 3 QBs that have played this year at utilizing them.
Many BBIers are making this argument while conveniently over looking the injuries to Andrew Thomas and Saquon Barkley, not to mention the total disarray of the entire O-line.
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
What is the desire to support those shortcomings? I don't see anyone getting too excited about a receiver who can't remember his routes, or takes a split second too long in/out of his breaks; or a lineman who can't recognize a stunt, or takes a split second too long to get his punch into a defender. So why the undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
Jones would never reveal it but he'd probably welcome a change of scenery at this point. He earned his contract, let a rookie take the beating.
Here are your questions... and here are my answers:
"Where is the line drawn... Why are all of these guys bad football players but you won't even consider that the QB is ALSO bad?"
Obviously, they are not all bad football players. But taken on the whole, the list I provided is pretty good proof as to why the Giants have been the laughing stock of the NFL. As for Daniel Jones, I know his shortcomings by heart, and over the years I have articulated them on BBI. But can you admit the opposite? That a part of Daniel Jones' lack of success is also tied to the personnel he has been surrounded by?
"You must be a bad fan. How can you denigrate all of these guys? You're supposed to root for all the players, remember?"
I'll leave it to others to judge whether or not I've been a bad fan since I first started following this team in the early 1960s. As for denigrating these players and not rooting for them? I think you've got that wrong. I did root for them, but many of them (not all) turned out to be part of the problem rather than the solution.
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
What is the desire to support those shortcomings? I don't see anyone getting too excited about a receiver who can't remember his routes, or takes a split second too long in/out of his breaks; or a lineman who can't recognize a stunt, or takes a split second too long to get his punch into a defender. So why the undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?
Why the double standard?
Who exactly on this web site has "undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?" That's an assumption of yours which seems to have animated your posts.
And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
RE: Jones will be the starter next year if healthy
And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
Unless the Giants completely neglect the QB position this offseason, which is basically impossible given the fact that Taylor is a FA - it's not a slam-dunk fact that DJ will be the starting QB next season.
There will be AT LEAST other bodies in the locker room that can throw a football.
I'm willing to bet they will be legit bodies given the fact that there's no guarantee that DJ will be ready for camp or the beginning of next season given the ACL/neck situations.
RE: Jones will be the starter next year if healthy
And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
Obviously if the Giants win 11 games and Jones performs well they aren't going to move on from him. I'd love it if Daniel Jones became the QB you think he is consistently for the first time in his life.
However, the problem comes if/when next year is somewhere between 11 wins and this season's disaster. Let's say, 7-8 wins, no playoffs, Jones plays decently but not great - are you (and the Giants organization) going to move on from him?
My guess, unfortunately, would be no.
RE: RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
Did you actually watch the first 6 games without AT? And Ezeudu at LT? Before they signed Pugh? It's not WAY better but it is definitely better and more stable, you'd have to be blind not to have seen that. Plus Saquon was lost at end of AZ game. Yeah, it matters.
Holy shit. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I read some of these posts.
RE: Jones will be the starter next year if healthy
And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
And when he gets hurt again in 2024 or 2025? What happens then. Keep paying a QB who can't put together more than a half season of decent play 45m? No chance.
They're going to pivot off Jones in the next two years. Even if he plays "okay".
Many BBIers are making this argument while conveniently over looking the injuries to Andrew Thomas and Saquon Barkley, not to mention the total disarray of the entire O-line.
We saw Jones throw 9 passes against the Raiders with Thomas and Barkley in the lineup. It was the worst he looked all year, throwing those two ducks to Hyatt, and that's saying something.
As I've said before, he was out to lunch this season (it's already been rumored that people in the building were mystified by it) and got injured. I guess Schoen and the Giants could write it off, but his floor as a quarterback is already fairly low and it would be negligent to not hedge against this taking a 1st or 2nd round QB.
RE: RE: Superb synopsis of the Daniel Jones era, Eric
And I agree with the final assessment. If the Giants have the opportunity to draft a top flight quarterback, they should do it, though I'm not a fan of Caleb Williams. Too short. What irks me is the fact that while Mara certainly has a right to influence critical decisions, he seems to base those decisions on emotion. For years Jerry Reese wanted to draft a QB on the first round, convinced that Manning's lack of mobility and his wobbly passes were killing opportunities to win games, but Mara loved Eli and so Reese seethed and watched the Giants lose. And because Mara loves Jones, the Giants are stuck with a QB that cannot rise above mediocre personnel. Was Mara also responsible for the Giants passing on Micah Parsons because of "character issues"?
Never heard that Reese was looking to draft a QB to replace Eli.
How many times does it need to said that one of Parson's coaches at PSU was on Judge's staff and told them Parson should not be drafted as he has issues.
the QB thing with reese reeks of absolute horseshit. the only 1st round qbs in reese's last 3 drafts were:
so paxton lynch is the only 1st rd qb who was on the clock they could have picked, but i guess mara was pounding the table for eli apple?
mahomes and watson are the 2 who went low enough a trade up was possible, the rumor on mahomes was mcadoo liked him not not reese, which also struck me as a fiction. sean payton has talked a lot about how much he liked mahomes too and he still passed on him for lattimore even though brees was older than eli. they picked davis webb in the 3rd that year and claimed to have a "much higher grade on him", i guess mara allowed it bc he watched enough Cal he was comfortable knowing webb sucked enough to not threaten eli?
this franchise has sucked so bad people see ghosts everywhere.
RE: Jones will be the starter next year if healthy
And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
2018 Eli revenge tour part 2: Electric Boogaloo.
RE: Jones will be the starter next year if healthy
And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
What is the desire to support those shortcomings? I don't see anyone getting too excited about a receiver who can't remember his routes, or takes a split second too long in/out of his breaks; or a lineman who can't recognize a stunt, or takes a split second too long to get his punch into a defender. So why the undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?
Why the double standard?
Who exactly on this web site has "undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?" That's an assumption of yours which seems to have animated your posts.
Are you fucking serious?
Why didn't your list of shitty players above include the QB?
RE: RE: RE: Superb synopsis of the Daniel Jones era, Eric
they picked davis webb in the 3rd that year and claimed to have a "much higher grade on him", i guess mara allowed it bc he watched enough Cal he was comfortable knowing webb sucked enough to not threaten eli?
this franchise has sucked so bad people see ghosts everywhere.
True, but I also don't understand people who don't think the organizational rot created by the Mara family is still present.
They drafted Davis Webb because Chris Mara went to the Senior Bowl and liked him, and that's how much weight his opinion carried in somehow ranking him ahead of Patrick Mahomes despite pleas from the coaching staff.
RE: Jones will be the starter next year if healthy
And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
And if the Giants start the season 0-4, Jones gets hurt at some point and misses games and the team finishes 6-11?
At that point you are looking for a new GM and HC because the ones we have in place are morons.
Obviously, they are not all bad football players. But taken on the whole, the list I provided is pretty good proof as to why the Giants have been the laughing stock of the NFL. As for Daniel Jones, I know his shortcomings by heart, and over the years I have articulated them on BBI. But can you admit the opposite? That a part of Daniel Jones' lack of success is also tied to the personnel he has been surrounded by?
Find me the post where I have not acknowledged that the surrounding talent has been subpar? All I've said is that I don't buy the fairy tale that everything around DJ has failed him but he's never been the one to let his team down with his own flawed play.
And if you think the roster is so bad (it is), then how did the scouts and exec and coaches who are responsible for that roster magically get the QB choice correct? They didn't.
I think there are numerous spots on the roster that need to be upgraded. None are as important as QB because no position in sports is as important as QB.
If you want to suggest that a QB is merely a passenger at the mercy of his surrounding roster, then take that all the way to its logical conclusion: it doesn't matter who the QB is, it only matters what the surrounding roster construction is. And if that's the case, why pay any QB rack rate?
It is somewhat shocking the amount of OL the organization has trotted out there from 2013-2021 with basically terrible results. This isn't a comment about Jones or anything - you'd think they'd hit on a few of those over the years but they just all pretty much sucked. Baffling.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
1- too many factors, no way to predict. if he's healthy enough to prove he's their best qb he plays, but who knows when that is? the only scenario i can envision where they dont risk re-injury is if season is over and they know they are moving on.
2- if the rookie struggles and its early season, i think they go to jones when healthy. id imagine they set the expectation that jones will be qb when he's healthy figuring if the rookie happens to play well enough to bledsoe jones, that's a phenomenal "problem" to have.
When you posted sort it out on the field -- I took that to mean the outcome will be determined by how both players perform on the field. And why Jones's inavailibility is a variable.
If the operating assumption is Jones gets his job back when he's healthy, and that only changes if the Giants are eliminated or the rookie is playing well, that makes more sense.
But that also feels like the primary sorting happened before either ever gets on the field. Which is OK and smart planning.
I just want one season with a top 10 OL unit. Just one. Would love to see Daboll be able to call plays that have a chance of big time results if we can get an above functional OL going.
they picked davis webb in the 3rd that year and claimed to have a "much higher grade on him", i guess mara allowed it bc he watched enough Cal he was comfortable knowing webb sucked enough to not threaten eli?
this franchise has sucked so bad people see ghosts everywhere.
True, but I also don't understand people who don't think the organizational rot created by the Mara family is still present.
They drafted Davis Webb because Chris Mara went to the Senior Bowl and liked him, and that's how much weight his opinion carried in somehow ranking him ahead of Patrick Mahomes despite pleas from the coaching staff.
it's simple, some of us were also met fans during the wilponzi era so we know what real organizational rot looks like. the giants have more of a faux rot.
they did a shitty job replacing to potential hof'ers (coughlin/eli) but the odds of replacing both effectively were somewhere between 1-10%, and getting either end of that equation wrong impacts the other end. the jets have spent 20+ years since parcells looking and gone through how many HCs/QBs not as good as either of those 2? browns? commanders? raiders? dolphins pre-mcdaniels? those are some storied franchises who have been similarly inept, some of them with true rot (snyder).
I just want one season with a top 10 OL unit. Just one. Would love to see Daboll be able to call plays that have a chance of big time results if we can get an above functional OL going.
Ryan, there is no stability. Everyone wants Bobby Johnson gone, that'll lead to another reset and new philosophy. That athletic article by Duggan a few weeks ago was so true about the OL, there is never a chance for the unit to gel together.
Look at the Eagles. They've had Stoutland since 2016 and they've invested less in the OL than NYG.
Sean, I'm not entirely sure the issue is Bobby Johnson.
He was almost there already but Thomas turned into an elite left tackle with Johnson. Ezeudu has been hurt his entire time here. JMS looks like he's getting a little better as the season goes on but he has been hurt.
Are we sure Neal would be this awesome RT with another coach?
And remember, Johnson's first season as OL coach was 2022, and we actually had clean pockets and a pretty good running game. The OL wasn't good by any means, but it was the best it had been in probably 5 years.
Everyone wants to fire Johnson. I'm not sure that is the recipe. Draft better players.
It is somewhat shocking the amount of OL the organization has trotted out there from 2013-2021 with basically terrible results. This isn't a comment about Jones or anything - you'd think they'd hit on a few of those over the years but they just all pretty much sucked. Baffling.
For a long time they tried to plug holes as they appeared, and that's a result of essentially ignoring the OL in the draft from 2005-2012. In those 8 drafts, they only used ONE pick before the 4th round on an O-lineman - Will Beatty in the 2nd round in 2009.
2005: 0 OL
2006: 0 OL
2007: Adam Koets (R6)
2008: 0 OL
2009: Beatty (R2)
2010: Petrus (R5)
2011: James Brewer (R4)
2012: Brandon Mosely (R4), Matt McCants (R6)
Then from 2016-2019, they forgot to draft OL again:
2016: 0 OL
2017: Adam Bisnowaty (R7)
2018: Hernandez (R2)
2019: George Asafo-Adjei (R7)
During that period, they signed the likes of Nate Solder and Patrick Omameh, both of whom were colossal failures.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
1- too many factors, no way to predict. if he's healthy enough to prove he's their best qb he plays, but who knows when that is? the only scenario i can envision where they dont risk re-injury is if season is over and they know they are moving on.
2- if the rookie struggles and its early season, i think they go to jones when healthy. id imagine they set the expectation that jones will be qb when he's healthy figuring if the rookie happens to play well enough to bledsoe jones, that's a phenomenal "problem" to have.
When you posted sort it out on the field -- I took that to mean the outcome will be determined by how both players perform on the field. And why Jones's inavailibility is a variable.
If the operating assumption is Jones gets his job back when he's healthy, and that only changes if the Giants are eliminated or the rookie is playing well, that makes more sense.
But that also feels like the primary sorting happened before either ever gets on the field. Which is OK and smart planning.
you can only sort on the field with who is on the field. that's pretty fundamental. nobody has any idea when jones will be on the field bc anyone can suffer a setback or recover differently (schoen said all that a few days ago).
the "primary sorting" you and i are speculating about is hypothetical and untethered to a lot of info that wont be available until May/June, that's why it's ahead of what happened when people get on the field.
i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
It is somewhat shocking the amount of OL the organization has trotted out there from 2013-2021 with basically terrible results. This isn't a comment about Jones or anything - you'd think they'd hit on a few of those over the years but they just all pretty much sucked. Baffling.
For a long time they tried to plug holes as they appeared, and that's a result of essentially ignoring the OL in the draft from 2005-2012. In those 8 drafts, they only used ONE pick before the 4th round on an O-lineman - Will Beatty in the 2nd round in 2009.
2005: 0 OL
2006: 0 OL
2007: Adam Koets (R6)
2008: 0 OL
2009: Beatty (R2)
2010: Petrus (R5)
2011: James Brewer (R4)
2012: Brandon Mosely (R4), Matt McCants (R6)
Then from 2016-2019, they forgot to draft OL again:
2016: 0 OL
2017: Adam Bisnowaty (R7)
2018: Hernandez (R2)
2019: George Asafo-Adjei (R7)
During that period, they signed the likes of Nate Solder and Patrick Omameh, both of whom were colossal failures.
It's as if our player evaluation staff don't know what a good offensive lineman looks like.
It is somewhat shocking the amount of OL the organization has trotted out there from 2013-2021 with basically terrible results. This isn't a comment about Jones or anything - you'd think they'd hit on a few of those over the years but they just all pretty much sucked. Baffling.
For a long time they tried to plug holes as they appeared, and that's a result of essentially ignoring the OL in the draft from 2005-2012. In those 8 drafts, they only used ONE pick before the 4th round on an O-lineman - Will Beatty in the 2nd round in 2009.
2005: 0 OL
2006: 0 OL
2007: Adam Koets (R6)
2008: 0 OL
2009: Beatty (R2)
2010: Petrus (R5)
2011: James Brewer (R4)
2012: Brandon Mosely (R4), Matt McCants (R6)
Then from 2016-2019, they forgot to draft OL again:
2016: 0 OL
2017: Adam Bisnowaty (R7)
2018: Hernandez (R2)
2019: George Asafo-Adjei (R7)
During that period, they signed the likes of Nate Solder and Patrick Omameh, both of whom were colossal failures.
It's as if our player evaluation staff don't know what a good offensive lineman looks like.
How confident are you that they know what a good quarterback looks like? Have you seen all the guys they've chosen at that position since Ernie planted his flag on the Eli Manning hill?
either still hold out hope that Jones is THE guy, or that he was THE guy but now the injuries have derailed him...
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
The notion that Jones is/was a proxy for Gettleman devotees namong the majority of fans, is, frankly, an absurdity. I doubt you could find a handful of fans who were or are favorably disposed to Jones who also were secrely pining away for the days of Dave Gettleman. It's a ridiculous assertion.
i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
either still hold out hope that Jones is THE guy, or that he was THE guy but now the injuries have derailed him...
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
Well said.
Admitting a mistake, accepting responsibility have been replaced with defending one’s first opinion with passion bordering on fanaticism in the face of undeniable facts.
People halt their ability to learn and grow with this particular life philosophy that is far too common.
i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
It is being HELL BENT on being correct. People are more concerned with shouting their POV over and over, rather than a discussion. They use insulting language unnecessarily repeatedly and the fire is returned and all we do is shout.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
This is silly. Do you think they'll set it to a musical montage?
Men are moved by effort in my experience. When they see a teammate put in the work, they notice. You might be person who is indifferent about the locker room and the personalities that make it up, we likely will not agree here. Team chemistry matters IMV
i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
It's not at all clear Jones has the locker room. You keep suggesting he's a beloved leader. I don't think so. Not when half the league is mocking him. You don't think guys in the locker room see what the rookie corner for SEA sees? You don't think guys in the locker room see TT and TD operate better than Jones with all the team's problems? You don't think guys in the locker room are tired of Jones apologists blaming them for the QB's deficiencies?
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
Let's play this out literally. Jones had his surgery on November 22, 270 days forward is August 18. In a near perfect scenario Jones will be cleared to practice 3 weeks before the season begins.
In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
Let's play this out literally. Jones had his surgery on November 22, 270 days forward is August 18. In a near perfect scenario Jones will be cleared to practice 3 weeks before the season begins.
In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
He will have a red shirt on will be throwing all camp
Daboll/Schoen look forward to the first camp visit from the Senior Player Personnel Executive or the Director of Player Personnel. I'm sure they'll be happy to hear that, to their eyes,'ol DJ looks great and fully recovered and ready to roll.
In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
He will have a red shirt on will be throwing all camp
It appears you don't have a strong understanding of how PUP works and/or the general timing around ACL recoveries.
In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
He will have a red shirt on will be throwing all camp
It appears you don't have a strong understanding of how PUP works and/or the general timing around ACL recoveries.
on this board truly believe that we can actually win a SB with Jones at this point?
Yes, I do. It would require some good fortune that eludes Jones. I don’t think he can stay healthy. I want a Maye,Williams, Daniel’s or a later prospect.
on this board truly believe that we can actually win a SB with Jones at this point?
Yes, I do. It would require some good fortune that eludes Jones. I don’t think he can stay healthy. I want a Maye,Williams, Daniel’s or a later prospect.
We need a QB
ALSO
Jones will be given a chance to rehab and start.
I don’t get the venom I receive for that.
When you say "good fortune that has eluded Jones" are you referring to health? Or....
We just disagree. I think the injured player will be given a chance to come back.
That's materially different than being cleared to practice at the extreme low end of the recovery timeline and likely beating out a blue chip draft pick.
Let's move up the miracle and say Jones is cleared mid-July. Jayden Daniels would blow the doors off a rusty Daniel Jones in practice.
Athletically for sure, he would do that to anyone. I have watched most highly drafted QB that are drafted for said fail at the NFL. Jones could very likely outperform a rookie. You are blinded by a desire to eject Jones. I get it.
to ask what does your QB need to win a SB and measure how attainable that is. The history of the SB winning teams have had quite the range of QB ability. For some multiple winning SB QB's they were much better the second time than on the rookie deal. Plenty of history with the QB on a rookie deal.
I find the interesting situation is if the Giants pick a QB in the top 5 or somewhere close to that and he looks terrible and what direction they go. Jones health is a big factor but that could get interesting.
It is being HELL BENT on being correct. People are more concerned with shouting their POV over and over, rather than a discussion. They use insulting language unnecessarily repeatedly and the fire is returned and all we do is shout.
That's rich. You mean like when you went around pretending to be FMIC calling anyone who said it was a mistake to pay DJ a moron?
Is afraid of Jones being given a chance to start in 2024.
You are afraid that he will do well.
If you knew he would fail, you would not show so much emotion in this debate.
It’s OK
They been wrong for so long, might as well drive off the cliff.
Funny thing is, the true best case scenario is jones playing well enough for someone to take his contract. but even that delicious cap space and a golden ticket couldn't disengage them from their obsessions.
It is being HELL BENT on being correct. People are more concerned with shouting their POV over and over, rather than a discussion. They use insulting language unnecessarily repeatedly and the fire is returned and all we do is shout.
That's rich. You mean like when you went around pretending to be FMIC calling anyone who said it was a mistake to pay DJ a moron?
inaccurate. I am not a punk, I will return fire but the people on this board that are polite have never read me direct an unkind word to them. It was a reasonable deal based on the context and still think so.
Hindsight changes that but we didn’t know all the players we would lose and the difficulty of the early schedule. I see a bunch of people taking victory laps because their opinion on Jones appears more accurate.
Rooting for new QB
We have different reasons, do we need to be enemies.
It seems as though this board is filled with sides.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
This is silly. Do you think they'll set it to a musical montage?
Men are moved by effort in my experience. When they see a teammate put in the work, they notice. You might be person who is indifferent about the locker room and the personalities that make it up, we likely will not agree here. Team chemistry matters IMV
I imagine the offensive linemen would be moved by Jones learning how to read a fucking blitz.
'Witness Jones's journey'... you've got to be fucking kidding me. Sounds like something out of True Detective.
half the team. It's all silly fluff fluff discussion to think which of the current FA will remain with the team. I believe Schoen is going to clean house just like what happened after 1983 season.
Is afraid of Jones being given a chance to start in 2024.
You are afraid that he will do well.
If you knew he would fail, you would not show so much emotion in this debate.
It’s OK
The anit-Jones crowd is terrified of a fragile QB coming off a bad injury getting injured again and adding another $22M to the cap in 2025 when he isn't even here.
If the Giants draft a QB I would not have Jones on the roster out of necessity but I would never activate him in 2024. They can't afford to have him injured. He needs to leave after 2024 in perfect health.
Let's move up the miracle and say Jones is cleared mid-July. Jayden Daniels would blow the doors off a rusty Daniel Jones in practice.
Athletically for sure, he would do that to anyone. I have watched most highly drafted QB that are drafted for said fail at the NFL. Jones could very likely outperform a rookie. You are blinded by a desire to eject Jones. I get it.
ryan, we really haven’t won shit since 2011. A WC win doesn’t move the needle for me, especially when we got shredded the following week by our divisional rival.
ryan. You keep talking about the ‘22 season. How much winning did Jones do THIS season?
The only reason I keep bringing up 2022, is because you guys continue to say that the Giants haven't won anything in 10 years.
It is baffling to me that everyone has conveniently forgotten what happened less than a year ago.
I don't think anyone forgot about 2022.
Some just don't see it as anything but a good season by Jones. Not some great break out performance that shook the NFL.
I would argue 2022 was more a testament to Dabka's game planning and coaching. And identifying a system that would work in the short term for Jones and the team...
SFG - so let me get this straight just so I'm clear:
Before the 2022 season, you and the majority of BBI thought the Giants were going to absolutely suck, probably go 3-14 or 4-13 or something so that effect. They'd move on from Jones, the roster was awful, etc, etc.
The team won 10 games, including a road playoff win.
And now you are saying that it "doesn't do it for you" even though before all that happened - you likely predicted that the team was going to be awful?
Basically - you're saying well actually that doesn't matter because hey we got killed by the Eagles anyway so....eh....I'm over that season, moving on.
I have been refraining for a while, but enough with how great last year was.
"Daniel Jones you and your team just got embarrassed by a division rival. What are you going to do next?"
"I'm going to Disney World!"
The standards are pathetic.
You predicted that we'd be the worst team in football, that Tyrod Taylor would be starting by week 4, and we'd be an embarrassment. Did you not say this over and over again?
And now you are somehow moving the goal posts so far and away beyond anything reasonable - that you are actually criticizing the Giants for losing by 30 to the Eagles in the divisional round of the playoffs - a spot that you predicted they would not come even remotely close to achieving?
GTFO with that. Come on man. I know you hate Jones but at least be consistent with your critiques.
I have been refraining for a while, but enough with how great last year was.
"Daniel Jones you and your team just got embarrassed by a division rival. What are you going to do next?"
"I'm going to Disney World!"
The standards are pathetic.
You predicted that we'd be the worst team in football, that Tyrod Taylor would be starting by week 4, and we'd be an embarrassment. Did you not say this over and over again?
And now you are somehow moving the goal posts so far and away beyond anything reasonable - that you are actually criticizing the Giants for losing by 30 to the Eagles in the divisional round of the playoffs - a spot that you predicted they would not come even remotely close to achieving?
GTFO with that. Come on man. I know you hate Jones but at least be consistent with your critiques.
I'll admit I was surprised the Giants got as far as they did; it's difficult to do that with a quarterback that sucks. Daboll earned every bit of that Coach of the Year award.
ryan. You don’t seem to get it. Yes, I thought we were going to suck last year. Guilty as charged. And I am obviously glad we didn’t. But I think it is clear AF that that season was a mirage based on Dabs and Kafka having Jones on training wheels. And yes, I have higher standards than beating a pretty awful Vikes defense on the road.
And again, last season. How did Jones look this season? How about a rookie cornerback saying that the entire team knows he stares down his first option? How about the offense looking more functional with his backups running the show?
The only way Jones could possibly continue starting is if we win.
I am not afraid of winning, no matter who starts at QB.
I agree with you. He will be cleared by the doctors and start so the team is not stuck with the injury guarantee. I am also confident he will be the same middling to bad qb he has been for the last 5 years and will be eased out by week 8 or 9 for whatever rookie Schoen takes in the upcoming draft and that he will not be on the team in 2025.
SFG, DeVito has played the Jets, Raiders, Washington, Dallas, and New England.
He had a really nice game against Commanders, no doubt about it.
We lost to the Jets in embarrassing fashion. We got killed by Vegas. We got killed by Dallas. We scored 10 points against New England. DeVito was really good against Washington.
By my estimation - that is 1 good performance out of 5 games. What am I missing?
ryan. You don’t seem to get it. Yes, I thought we were going to suck last year. Guilty as charged. And I am obviously glad we didn’t. But I think it is clear AF that that season was a mirage based on Dabs and Kafka having Jones on training wheels. And yes, I have higher standards than beating a pretty awful Vikes defense on the road.
And again, last season. How did Jones look this season? How about a rookie cornerback saying that the entire team knows he stares down his first option? How about the offense looking more functional with his backups running the show?
Again - watch Jones against Dallas in 2022. Played well. Watch the OL against Dallas, SF, Seattle, and Miami early on this season.
Unmitigated disaster. Actually - the OL was amazingly bad as well against Dallas in the MNF game last year, and Jones nearly pulled it off.
I think he can be a serviceable backup and give you a very solid 3-4 games a year. I think there is value there but he is WAY overpaid.
I also think he cannot play that role here, there is too much history and sentimentality with this player here. And it's probably like any business. I doubt it's just Mara. I'm sure Daboll loves the guy, Schoen, ownership and from all accounts his teammates love him too. All of this plays a role and it's why keeping him around is complicated. I think a fresh start for both parties is best.
I have been refraining for a while, but enough with how great last year was.
"Daniel Jones you and your team just got embarrassed by a division rival. What are you going to do next?"
"I'm going to Disney World!"
The standards are pathetic.
I was (mostly) joking. You add too much here to be on time out.
No worries. I get it...for me that was a nauseating moment in this team's history. It mystifies me that so many are just glossing over that and pointing to the Minnesota game like it was a massive moment that validates the Jones experience. It was a fun few days, but that good feeling vanished about 5 minutes after kickoff in Philadelphia.
For me the Minnesota game was rendered irrelevant by how the following game went. It's one thing if the Giants went to Philly and lost a well contested game. But what we learned was that the team was a complete pretender that had benefited by circumstance just to be there.
I think very few fans that participate actively in this forum gloss over the Eagle game to promote the Vikings. There certainly aren't many that I can think.
I think most of us would happily debate whether the Vikings playoff win was a building block towards a better future or a one off nice achievement.
Is anyone willing to take the position of the former?
With the benefit of hindsight it's clearly a one off. In January of 2023, it was probably a building block with 98% of BBI. The board was holding their breath that Kafka wouldn't go to Arizona and Martindale wouldn't go to Indy. There were a lot of "arrow is pointing up" posts and "close the gap" - I'll raise my hand as well.
I think if you told BBI on January 15th even after the Eagle loss, the Giants would be sitting at 4-8 with a glaring need at QB and Daboll & Wink fighting, most would be shocked.
Unfortunately the organization plans to improve the team around him to get that type of performance against the better D's didn't pan out in the games he was able to play this year.
AT being hurt and SB in the second game certainly didn't help. Maybe some were happy with the back up RB's and what they did at LT. Neal looked to make great strides....
Well, John-if need be-needs to remember this is a business and the goal is to win. You can’t be sentimental about a dude who has no pelts on the wall. Be sentimental about Eli? I get that. Daniel Jones? No.
Throughout the movie they cite the number one rule of poker: Fold your cards the minute you know they can’t win. I think that was the spirit of Eric’s column. We’re at a poker table with the Cowboys and Eagles and just keep doubling down on Jones and Saquon while their stacks of chips reach the rafters. At some point we have to fold and play a different hand.
Agree on the view on 2022. I loved the build up to the game and the game itself vs. Minnesota. It felt good to care about Giants football for a few weeks, even after the second half collapse to the season.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
Agree on the view on 2022. I loved the build up to the game and the game itself vs. Minnesota. It felt good to care about Giants football for a few weeks, even after the second half collapse to the season.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
💯
It's troubling for many to consider the possibility that last year was the Giants' version of winning playoff games with Blake Bortles or Case Keenum.
Well, John-if need be-needs to remember this is a business and the goal is to win. You can’t be sentimental about a dude who has no pelts on the wall. Be sentimental about Eli? I get that. Daniel Jones? No.
I agree 100% - it's a business first.
But any good manager will tell you that it's hard to let go of people that want to be good at their jobs, put in the time to be good at their jobs, say and do all the right thing for the company .... BUT ultimately fail to produce results.
The Giants were a victim of their own incompetence
There is a good chance the Giants aren't sitting in this mess. But, since they were so incredibly bad, they've really leaned into it as a building block. "The Giants are back."
Its one game folks. I dont know why this Viking game seems to be the only game that matters for some.
Btw- you should probably remember how extraordinary fortunate to draw the Minnesota Vikings instead of the San Francisco 49ers. People would do well to remember how virtually everyone felt that the Vikings were the only team that the giants could beat.
Agree on the view on 2022. I loved the build up to the game and the game itself vs. Minnesota. It felt good to care about Giants football for a few weeks, even after the second half collapse to the season.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
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It's troubling for many to consider the possibility that last year was the Giants' version of winning playoff games with Blake Bortles or Case Keenum.
The first two games after Minnesota:
Philly: 38-7 loss
Dallas: 40-0 loss
So it was:
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
Indeed. Look, credit to Jones for executing. Dabka put him in a position to succeed, the Vikings struggled with assignments, and Jones delivered. That's worth something (not $160M, but I digressed).
But playing D was the Achilles heel of the Vikings all of 2022. And many of the 18 QBs they played exploited it.
Haven't been around all that long but this has to be the most bizarre thread I have followed. Its like the Giants can't do two things at once. On the one hand, Schoen said he expects Jones to be the starter next year, but he also made it clear that they'll be exploring all the options to get some insurance and upgrade the position. Its called keeping your options open and why some people will go on almost absurd lengths to insist on closing down one option when it costs nothing to keep it open is beyond and they don't have any other options in place.
What it really comes down to is we have two very different seasons to work with. In 2022 the Jones and the Giants overachieved (at least based on expectations) and this year in which they have clearly underachieved. Which one was the mirage? Truth is nobody knows for sure. Is Jones good enough to win a Super Bowl. Who knows! Who thought in 2006 when the Giants lost 6 of their final 8 games to miss the playoffs after starting 6-2 that Eli would be good enough to win 2 titles; who thought in 1983 after the Giants went 3-11-1 and Simms failed to finish another season that they'd win a Super Bowl just 3 years later. And Jones was certainly good enough to get a rather rag-tag bunch into the playoffs last year and once you get to the playoffs, well who knows.
People want football to be rational, logical, linear but most of the time it isn't. Its random, its ad hoc, its unpredictable and the one thing you wnat to do, and its what the Giants appear to be trying to do, is keep as many options open to them as possible.
Do you have a problem with the Arizona game? Do you recall Sy's review of the OL play? I hope just about everyone says it was a very good day for Jones here.
What was different about those games compared to the Minny game and every one of the games they won last season?
That is DJ's season. I'm not going to over analyze any QB coming off a three week injury in a QTR and a couple plays. You can if you choose to.
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
Is afraid of Jones being given a chance to start in 2024.
You are afraid that he will do well.
If you knew he would fail, you would not show so much emotion in this debate.
It’s OK
They been wrong for so long, might as well drive off the cliff.
Funny thing is, the true best case scenario is jones playing well enough for someone to take his contract. but even that delicious cap space and a golden ticket couldn't disengage them from their obsessions.
Have they? I think I’ve been pretty spot on on Jones and Gettleman.
Agree on the view on 2022. I loved the build up to the game and the game itself vs. Minnesota. It felt good to care about Giants football for a few weeks, even after the second half collapse to the season.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
Let me give you some potential examples of things that went well against the Vikings.
- Jones was the team's leading rusher with 78 yards and 7 first downs
- Jones was incredibly efficient completing 24 passes with an outstanding first down rate of 40%
- Though his intended air yards per attempt was below 6 yards
Are those a few of the things you wanted the Giants to carry over?
Haven't been around all that long but this has to be the most bizarre thread I have followed. Its like the Giants can't do two things at once. On the one hand, Schoen said he expects Jones to be the starter next year, but he also made it clear that they'll be exploring all the options to get some insurance and upgrade the position. Its called keeping your options open and why some people will go on almost absurd lengths to insist on closing down one option when it costs nothing to keep it open is beyond and they don't have any other options in place.
What it really comes down to is we have two very different seasons to work with. In 2022 the Jones and the Giants overachieved (at least based on expectations) and this year in which they have clearly underachieved. Which one was the mirage? Truth is nobody knows for sure. Is Jones good enough to win a Super Bowl. Who knows! Who thought in 2006 when the Giants lost 6 of their final 8 games to miss the playoffs after starting 6-2 that Eli would be good enough to win 2 titles; who thought in 1983 after the Giants went 3-11-1 and Simms failed to finish another season that they'd win a Super Bowl just 3 years later. And Jones was certainly good enough to get a rather rag-tag bunch into the playoffs last year and once you get to the playoffs, well who knows.
People want football to be rational, logical, linear but most of the time it isn't. Its random, its ad hoc, its unpredictable and the one thing you wnat to do, and its what the Giants appear to be trying to do, is keep as many options open to them as possible.
Otherwise people are just screaming at the moon.
Just hope if the draft falls QB they pull the trigger and have the grit to pull a Kenny Golladay with Jones if that is how the production/depth chart falls.
Either Daniel Jones was responsible for the victory over the Vikings as well as the beat down from the Eagles, or the Giants were responsible for the victory over the Vikings as well as the bear down from the Eagles.
You can't claim Jones won the Vikings game and then the Giants lost the Eagles game. That is logically and intellectually dishonest.
either still hold out hope that Jones is THE guy, or that he was THE guy but now the injuries have derailed him...
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
The notion that Jones is/was a proxy for Gettleman devotees namong the majority of fans, is, frankly, an absurdity. I doubt you could find a handful of fans who were or are favorably disposed to Jones who also were secrely pining away for the days of Dave Gettleman. It's a ridiculous assertion.
Clatter...
There have been people this year (albeit before the start of the season, who were claiming that DG did a "great job of building the foundation of this team", then they would go on to praise Jones, Barkley, Dex, Thomas, Williams, McKinney and Ojulari...
The people who made these claims are the same people who are still die hard Jones supporters.
It ain't hard to do the math.
I doubt you could find a handful of fans who were or are favorably disposed to Jones who also were secrely pining away for the days of Dave Gettleman. It's a ridiculous assertion.
I can't recall FMIC's position on Jones but I would not be surprised if he was a considerable Jones guy as a hometown kid, and the other one was mr "you've got to wait and see and let it play out" with Gettleman himself, Ryanmkeane. You can find him in any Jones thread.
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
No one said it was. The point is Jones isn't good and the team decided to pay him a big contract a year before a great QB draft.
If that hasn't happened this coming offseason would be cut and dry.
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
Sure would be nice if you were so passionate about this whenever the Jones fan boys keep giving him all the credit for the wins and blaming the team for the embarrassing losses. There was literally a post on one of the other threads that claimed Jones “dragged a bad team to the playoffs last season”. The same posters give Jones all the credit for beating Minnesota. Then turn around and completely dissolve him of any blame for what happened in Philly. Or any other game they lose. Only THEN does it become a “team game”…
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
Sure would be nice if you were so passionate about this whenever the Jones fan boys keep giving him all the credit for the wins and blaming the team for the embarrassing losses. There was literally a post on one of the other threads that claimed Jones “dragged a bad team to the playoffs last season”. The same posters give Jones all the credit for beating Minnesota. Then turn around and completely dissolve him of any blame for what happened in Philly. Or any other game they lose. Only THEN does it become a “team game”…
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Again with road playoff win. It's a wild card game against a 3 seed. Who played above their heads and had a lousy defense. You want to pretend it was an historic victory, fine. The rest of the league thought it was no big deal and the Giants got unceremoniously thumped the next week. How many years do you want to squander on a guy who is not the answer at the most important position. Because we can waste a decade doing this if you really want to.
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
Scooter can you read. That's not what I said at all. I said he gives the Giants the best chance to win going forward. Are you honestly going to tell me that either Tommy DeVito or Taylor would give the Giants a better chance to make the playoffs (if that's the best they can) next year. Give me a break. Taylor hasn't won a game literally since the AFL was around and DeVito just won a couple of games against two of the worst teams in the league, one where the Giants gave him 6 turnovers and the other against arguably the worst team in the league in which the Giants were a +2 and still only scored 10 points.
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
Scooter can you read. That's not what I said at all. I said he gives the Giants the best chance to win going forward. Are you honestly going to tell me that either Tommy DeVito or Taylor would give the Giants a better chance to make the playoffs (if that's the best they can) next year. Give me a break. Taylor hasn't won a game literally since the AFL was around and DeVito just won a couple of games against two of the worst teams in the league, one where the Giants gave him 6 turnovers and the other against arguably the worst team in the league in which the Giants were a +2 and still only scored 10 points.
The offense looked better under TT and hasn't looked worse under TD. If Jones isn't the best QB on the Giants this year how can he be the one who gives them the best chance next year?
For the record I don't want any of the 3 starting next year unless it's as a fill in for injury
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
I totally agree with you but forget it man. These threads will always be 1000 miles long with these guys just digging in and want to talk about Jones Jones Jones. It is what it is. I have trouble not responding as well... lol. If you defend Jones at all or bring up the fact that the coaching and rest of the team were a big part of the problem, you just get labeled as an excuse maker and a DJFC member. lol. Because, you know, like the team and coaching are totally on par with the Eagles and Philly. It's just the QB position! It's holding us back!
The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
What they showed was that they had pieces to work with if they got better than below average QB play.
There's a big, big gap between "true elite QB" and what you've gotten from Jones for 60+ starts, and it's not at all worth biting your nails in fear of losing such ability.
The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
What they showed was that they had pieces to work with if they got better than below average QB play.
There's a big, big gap between "true elite QB" and what you've gotten from Jones for 60+ starts, and it's not at all worth biting your nails in fear of losing such ability.
It's insane really. Afraid to part with such a mediocre talent. Setting back our progress to continue to evaluate this obviously limited player. We waste years on the low probability outcome that he can win a championship. He's been outplayed this season by a journeyman and an undrafted rookie. What more do these people need to see?
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
I totally agree with you but forget it man. These threads will always be 1000 miles long with these guys just digging in and want to talk about Jones Jones Jones. It is what it is. I have trouble not responding as well... lol. If you defend Jones at all or bring up the fact that the coaching and rest of the team were a big part of the problem, you just get labeled as an excuse maker and a DJFC member. lol. Because, you know, like the team and coaching are totally on par with the Eagles and Philly. It's just the QB position! It's holding us back!
LOL
DJ derangement syndrome. Some serious mental illness up in here. And they will outlast you. They wear those astronaut diapers so they don’t have to leave the keyboard and miss an opportunity to repeat themselves. Word.
DJ derangement syndrome. Some serious mental illness up in here. And they will outlast you. They wear those astronaut diapers so they don’t have to leave the keyboard and miss an opportunity to repeat themselves. Word.
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
thing with that crew who just trashes Jones w/o any consideration to all the variables around him that did have a big impact this season is that they don't even understand how the position works imv. To not even acknowledge the reality of what the situation was in most of the games he played this season is pretty weak imv.
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
Scooter can you read. That's not what I said at all. I said he gives the Giants the best chance to win going forward. Are you honestly going to tell me that either Tommy DeVito or Taylor would give the Giants a better chance to make the playoffs (if that's the best they can) next year. Give me a break. Taylor hasn't won a game literally since the AFL was around and DeVito just won a couple of games against two of the worst teams in the league, one where the Giants gave him 6 turnovers and the other against arguably the worst team in the league in which the Giants were a +2 and still only scored 10 points.
So, what is your goal for the team? Win some games, maybe make the playoffs, but if so, make an early exit?
Is that what good looks like to you?
I have news for you. That isn't the goal. The goal is to place another silver football in the trophy case. Jones give the Giants an near zero percent chance of doing that.
thing with that crew who just trashes Jones w/o any consideration to all the variables around him that did have a big impact this season is that they don't even understand how the position works imv. To not even acknowledge the reality of what the situation was in most of the games he played this season is pretty weak imv.
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.
This right here is why it is absolutely impossible to have discussions around here. You guys simply don’t know how to read or are just willfully turning on your selective memories. Literally EVERYONE has acknowledged that there are other issues on the team. EVERYONE has stated that the OL has sucked balls. Yet, here you are claiming they refuse to acknowledge “consideration to all the variables around him”. Learn how to read. And after you read, let it sink in.
Then you say people that see the flaws in Jones’ game don’t understand how the position works. That’s precious. Because the opposite is actually true. It is YOU and the constant defenders that have no clue how the position works. That is incredibly obvious. Blaming everyone on the planet except for the QB for 4 1/2 years of mostly poor QB play is amateur hour. There has been plenty of people that have broken down videos using All 22 to try to explain to the less knowledgeable that try to explain to you where Jones is contributing to the disaster. But instead of listening, you find reasons to dismiss those that are breaking things down for you. It’s easier to simply blame the OL every time there is a sack. Or the coaching. Or the GM. Or the owner. Or the weather. Or the food vendors.
thing with that crew who just trashes Jones w/o any consideration to all the variables around him that did have a big impact this season is that they don't even understand how the position works imv. To not even acknowledge the reality of what the situation was in most of the games he played this season is pretty weak imv.
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.
So Jones’ critics don’t have enough football knowledge to understand that the Giants offense isn’t any good or how even what a QB is responsible for? And they are only using these 5 games this season to base their criticism on? That they disregard everything you find important?
The kid is hard worker and by all accounts his teammates like him. But the game that completely soured me on him was the Seahawks game this year. I understand that conditions weren’t favorable, but he looked like a train wreck in that game. Not taking shots downfield, holding the ball too long and taking unnecessary sacks, the red zone INT. This is suppose to be your franchise $40 million QB, and he did not lift up the team. You can argue that he never has. It’s time to move on. The extension was mistake. The faster we move on, the better for the franchise as a whole.
thing with that crew who just trashes Jones w/o any consideration to all the variables around him that did have a big impact this season is that they don't even understand how the position works imv. To not even acknowledge the reality of what the situation was in most of the games he played this season is pretty weak imv.
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.
This right here is why it is absolutely impossible to have discussions around here. You guys simply don’t know how to read or are just willfully turning on your selective memories. Literally EVERYONE has acknowledged that there are other issues on the team. EVERYONE has stated that the OL has sucked balls. Yet, here you are claiming they refuse to acknowledge “consideration to all the variables around him”. Learn how to read. And after you read, let it sink in.
Then you say people that see the flaws in Jones’ game don’t understand how the position works. That’s precious. Because the opposite is actually true. It is YOU and the constant defenders that have no clue how the position works. That is incredibly obvious. Blaming everyone on the planet except for the QB for 4 1/2 years of mostly poor QB play is amateur hour. There has been plenty of people that have broken down videos using All 22 to try to explain to the less knowledgeable that try to explain to you where Jones is contributing to the disaster. But instead of listening, you find reasons to dismiss those that are breaking things down for you. It’s easier to simply blame the OL every time there is a sack. Or the coaching. Or the GM. Or the owner. Or the weather. Or the food vendors.
So Jones’ critics don’t have enough football knowledge to understand that the Giants offense isn’t any good or how even what a QB is responsible for? And they are only using these 5 games this season to base their criticism on? That they disregard everything you find important?
And you think this is interesting?
Yeah, it's a disingenuous comment by LOS and that ilk.
Everyone I respect acknowledges that the entire offense has looked broken. That there are issues beyond Jones.
I believe, however, you can still judge Jones's play despite the other issues. Alas, he demonstrates he's not a force multiplier player and, instead, needs too many other parts to be in place to potentially be more successful.
Meanwhile, the other side of the debate takes the position that until everything around Jones is better, making an assessment on Jones is unfair. Thus, he needs even more time...
So Jones’ critics don’t have enough football knowledge to understand that the Giants offense isn’t any good or how even what a QB is responsible for? And they are only using these 5 games this season to base their criticism on? That they disregard everything you find important?
And you think this is interesting?
Yeah, it's a disingenuous comment by LOS and that ilk.
Everyone I respect acknowledges that the entire offense has looked broken. That there are issues beyond Jones.
I believe, however, you can still judge Jones's play despite the other issues. Alas, he demonstrates he's not a force multiplier player and, instead, needs too many other parts to be in place to potentially be more successful.
Meanwhile, the other side of the debate takes the position that until everything around Jones is better, making an assessment on Jones is unfair. Thus, he needs even more time...
And around and around we go...
I think that's been the important sticking point for a couple of years now, but especially leading up to and now after the big contract. I don't disagree that Jones could be a good QB with a much better situation. In particular, the OL would be key. However, I think a true franchise QB elevates this team to an 8-10 win team as is. There have been plays to be made as a PASSER that he just misses. He doesn't have the skills processing the D before or after the snap. Any fucking QB should have moderate success with all day to throw and a dynamic WR. But, that isn't the realistic outcome.
I also hate the constant bashing of our receivers. I happen to think we have the talent to be a good offense. Hyatt is far better than we have used him as and Robinson could be a dynamic complement. They also have one of the top 5 RBs in Barkley. There are weapons; there isn't the alpha dog QB to get them the ball.
Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
the OL, that unit likely becomes about average, because that is how bad it is right now. With an average to good OL, I don't see Jones elevating this team to more than 10 wins. His ceiling is about that without an elite team around him. How is that an elite QB?
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
the OL, that unit likely becomes about average, because that is how bad it is right now. With an average to good OL, I don't see Jones elevating this team to more than 10 wins. His ceiling is about that without an elite team around him. How is that an elite QB?
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a quarterback who is actually better than a backup level talent. And if I have to settle for a backup level talent at quarterback, I want to allocate as little cap as possible to the position and devote it elsewhere until I find my elite quarterback. You know, precisely the opposite of what the Giants have been doing for the past five years.
Will things change? Can Mara and Schoen admit that DJ is a backup level talent that should never have been drafted at six and certainly should never have been given anything but the franchise tag as a second contract? Judging from the entrenched positions of many on this thread, I doubt it. Denial and self-preservation are very powerful allies in the war on common sense...
the OL, that unit likely becomes about average, because that is how bad it is right now. With an average to good OL, I don't see Jones elevating this team to more than 10 wins. His ceiling is about that without an elite team around him. How is that an elite QB?
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a quarterback who is actually better than a backup level talent. And if I have to settle for a backup level talent at quarterback, I want to allocate as little cap as possible to the position and devote it elsewhere until I find my elite quarterback. You know, precisely the opposite of what the Giants have been doing for the past five years.
Will things change? Can Mara and Schoen admit that DJ is a backup level talent that should never have been drafted at six and certainly should never have been given anything but the franchise tag as a second contract? Judging from the entrenched positions of many on this thread, I doubt it. Denial and self-preservation are very powerful allies in the war on common sense...
One, I do think Jones is better than backup level talent. He just isn't a better than average starter. But, his problem isn't talent. It's his inability to read the D before the snap, read the D after the snap, and process what he's seeing.
Two, the QB you describe is right there for the taking and they might be in position to grab one now.
the OL, that unit likely becomes about average, because that is how bad it is right now. With an average to good OL, I don't see Jones elevating this team to more than 10 wins. His ceiling is about that without an elite team around him. How is that an elite QB?
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a quarterback who is actually better than a backup level talent. And if I have to settle for a backup level talent at quarterback, I want to allocate as little cap as possible to the position and devote it elsewhere until I find my elite quarterback. You know, precisely the opposite of what the Giants have been doing for the past five years.
Will things change? Can Mara and Schoen admit that DJ is a backup level talent that should never have been drafted at six and certainly should never have been given anything but the franchise tag as a second contract? Judging from the entrenched positions of many on this thread, I doubt it. Denial and self-preservation are very powerful allies in the war on common sense...
One, I do think Jones is better than backup level talent. He just isn't a better than average starter. But, his problem isn't talent. It's his inability to read the D before the snap, read the D after the snap, and process what he's seeing.
Two, the QB you describe is right there for the taking and they might be in position to grab one now.
By far the most important attribute as it relates to talent for a starting NFL quarterback is his brain. Sy knew this before DJ was drafted. To say someone has elite physical skills without an elite performing brain is to say he is at best a backup level talent in the NFL.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
By far the most important attribute as it relates to talent for a starting NFL quarterback is his brain. Sy knew this before DJ was drafted. To say someone has elite physical skills without an elite performing brain is to say he is at best a backup level talent in the NFL.
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
So I do have a serious question for you guys that maybe could actually advance the debate. Who is this franchise QB that the Giants are dumping Jones for?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
And PS I am still waiting for someone to tell me who this 'smart' franchise QB is that we should be dumping Jones for.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
He won’t admit why. We all know why he made those comments about those two specifically. And it also explains his love affair with Daniel Jones…
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
He won’t admit why. We all know why he made those comments about those two specifically. And it also explains his love affair with Daniel Jones…
Are you dense man! I just told you why. They are great QBs in large part because of their exceptional athleticism. As pure passers they're barely top ten guys.
But I see what you guys are doing here. Deflection, change the subject, attack when you can't answer the basic question here.
Still no one will provide an answer to the question: Who is the franchise QB the Giants are going to replace Jones with? I am being to think is it possible that the Giants don't actually have a replacement in the room yet. And what rational football team anywhere gets rid of the guy who gives them the best chance to win games when they don't have anyone better in the room.
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
And PS I am still waiting for someone to tell me who this 'smart' franchise QB is that we should be dumping Jones for.
Do you have the same reaction when you watch Josh Allen?
As for replacing Jones, nobody has a certain answer for that. What is certain is now is the time to get into the process of finding that franchise QB.
And that make take a while...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
He won’t admit why. We all know why he made those comments about those two specifically. And it also explains his love affair with Daniel Jones…
Are you dense man! I just told you why. They are great QBs in large part because of their exceptional athleticism. As pure passers they're barely top ten guys.
But I see what you guys are doing here. Deflection, change the subject, attack when you can't answer the basic question here.
Still no one will provide an answer to the question: Who is the franchise QB the Giants are going to replace Jones with? I am being to think is it possible that the Giants don't actually have a replacement in the room yet. And what rational football team anywhere gets rid of the guy who gives them the best chance to win games when they don't have anyone better in the room.
You specifically said, and I quote:
“The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.”
You literally accused them of not being the brightest bulbs in the QB room. That has NOTHING to do with their athleticism. YOU are the one deflecting p, not us. You said it. Own it.
And there's posters here insulting his intelligence, and those same people probably wouldn't rather have him at QB than Jones.
There are people who assume Lamar Jackson is stupid because he is black, comes from an economically distressed area and has a speech impediment. And many of these same people assume Daniel Jones is intelligent because he's tall, white, good looking, comes from an affluent family, and looks like a wholesome boy.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
Why would their athleticism mean they weren’t the “brightest bulbs”? One has nothing to do with the other. That isn’t complicated.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Building on that last post, I look at it this way, even if you improve
Let’s the draft falls a way that we don’t get one of the big three.
I would trade next years 1 to get one, so do not strawman this into claiming I want to gooble Jones’ sac.
But, it might not happen.
Who is our trade back up into the first guy?
BW?
Terps?
Trying to move the discussion forward.
I have no idea what it means to gooble someones sac but it certainly doesn’t sound like a pleasant experience. Good on you for drawing a line in that sand.
I would guess Penix and Nix would potentially be trade up candidates into the late 1st but I’m not sure I’m thrilled with giving up picks to move up for either, personally. I guess it just depends on the asking price and whether Schoen values the 5th year option enough to make that move
I think you spoke for the large majority of us who have been following the Giants for decades, 365 days a year.
I respectfully request that this thread be re-pinned and remain pinned until after the draft to serve as a BBI historical narrative of this crucial crossroads time in Giants history.
I've seen and die hard rooted the entire NFL Super Bowl era of NY Giants football, I find the current on-field ineptitude caused by, in my opinion, the football incompetence of John, Chris, and Tim (McDonnell) Mara more disheartening than Wellington's 'lost weekend' from 1965-1981.
Tom Coughlin's last winning season was 2012. Since 2013 the Giants regular season record is 71 wins and 118 losses and 1 tie. That's a winning percentage below 38%, or viewed differently, the Giants have lost 62% of their games since 2013.
Over the past 11 seasons, including the current one, the Giants have played in three playoff games and won only one.
If this season continues to play out the way the first 12 games have gone it will be the 8th time in 11 years that the Giants will lose 10 games or more. Going back further to 2010, 2016 is the only year the Giants won double digit games.
Since 2013, the Giants have been outscored by their opponents in 10 out of 11 seasons, in four of those seasons, including the present one, by over 100 points. Since 2013, the Giants have been outscored by an unfathomable 774 points.
I typed out the above numbers to highlight the absurdity of downplaying ownerships role in this second “Mara lost weekend” and defending the Mara family's management of the team. I think anyone who endorses or justifies this level of mismanagement, unless they’re on the Giants payroll, is either blindly loyal or has Stockholm syndrome.
How much losing is it going to take for the Mara family to let the football professionals they’ve hired control the roster with total autonomy. Including, without ownership communicating their player favoritism through the media. I think that undermines and puts fan base pressure on the GM and Head Coach, and spins the wheel of firing and hiring, after a one-year honeymoon season.
Between 2013 and 2023, the Giants have cycled through 5 Head Coaches (6 if we include Steve Spagnuolo's mop up during McAdoo's 2nd year), 3 General Managers, and only 2 starting Quarterbacks: Eli Manning from 2013-2018 and Daniel Jones from 2019-2023. The only constants during this entire period of laughing stock losing have been the 3 Mara's. Ownership has directly and indirectly mandated who the starting QBs will be even though they’ve been outscored by 774 points.
If next season starts with Daniel Jones, Tommy Devito and Tyrod Taylor back on a cheap contract as the three Giants QBs I think we're going to see another Head Coach get fired and possibly the GM too.
In the vast cosmos of unsolved mysteries, the inner workings of 1925 Giants Way between the first and second year of a NY Giants Head Coach's tenure since 2016 might not rank high in importance. However, it’s at the top of my personal list. If anyone has a plausible theory, please share it. I can’t figure it out. What the hell happens in that building in the off season?
This is a wild stat and almost seems impossible given the last decade:
Quote:
Between 2013 and 2023, the Giants have cycled through 5 Head Coaches (6 if we include Steve Spagnuolo's mop up during McAdoo's 2nd year), 3 General Managers, and only 2 starting Quarterbacks: Eli Manning from 2013-2018 and Daniel Jones from 2019-2023.
I don't think the poster is even aware of his inner truth, or that he put it on display for all to see.
I must admit, that think like is playing a part in all this never crossed my mind. I thought that kind of thinking was left back in the 90's.
To attempt to tear down Hurts and Jackson from being one-note running QB dummies with limited passing abilities, when that pretty much describes Daniel Jones.
That's been one of the grand ironies of the Jones era, as a matter of fact. Duke-educated QB groomed by the Manning-guru Cutcliffe, and his on-field intelligence is probably his worst trait. A rookie center has to call protections instead of him, and I'll never forget Jones standing there getting hit by Witherspoon like a lemming against Seattle instead of the recognizing the corner blitz and throwing to the hot read.
RE: It's disappointing but 20th and 21st century sports
fandom have revealed itself to be somewhat of a mirror of current American sociology and society.
Sometimes when objective facts and the eye ball test don't match up with what's in a persons heart. They say their quiet part out loud.
While it's disheartening to see that sort of thinking on these threads, BBI is a really large community so it isn't shocking - I AM proud to see people immediately stepped up and called out the racism.
After the Giants drafted Barkley, 2020 was the logical year to draft QB.
Quote:
Ari Meirov
@MySportsUpdate
It is so rare for this to happen, but it sure looks like all 5 of top QBs taken in the 2020 NFL Draft are franchise quarterbacks.
• Joe Burrow: No. 1 pick
• Tua Tagovailoa: No. 5 pick
• Justin Herbert: No. 6 pick
• Jordan Love: No. 26 pick
• Jalen Hurts: No. 53 pick
Let’s the draft falls a way that we don’t get one of the big three.
I would trade next years 1 to get one, so do not strawman this into claiming I want to gooble Jones’ sac.
But, it might not happen.
Who is our trade back up into the first guy?
BW?
Terps?
Trying to move the discussion forward.
I have no idea what it means to gooble someones sac but it certainly doesn’t sound like a pleasant experience. Good on you for drawing a line in that sand.
I would guess Penix and Nix would potentially be trade up candidates into the late 1st but I’m not sure I’m thrilled with giving up picks to move up for either, personally. I guess it just depends on the asking price and whether Schoen values the 5th year option enough to make that move
I purchased an IPad Pro 12.9. I will hopefully avoid such typos in the future. However, my unintentional gaffes are as much the result of speed and lack of caring as posting on my phone.
I live in the PNW and my daughter attends OSU. I would not move up for either and would wait until 2. I actually think some of the later prospects will make better pros. Pen is vs Nix classic debate. Pen has a cannon but hate the mechanics. Nix is a machine but lacks the drive to push the deep out IMV
Bar is below the ground.
How do Schoen and Daboll feel about the REST of the roster? If they feel they are "close" then it absolutely makes sense to somehow try and get "their guy" THIS YEAR in the draft.
If they feel they aren't that close after further evaluation - then I would say the strategy of non QB BPA for your first 3 picks might hold.
Not saying they are totally sold on 1 way or the other right now. But that's what it comes down to for me.
Schoen seems to be nailing some of these picks outside of Neal - jury is out on him obviously. I'd wager that if the Giants end up with the 7th pick, they will not fight to the death to move up for a QB.
But at this point, the injuries have rendered the argument moot. Giants need to move forward and, at the very least, get a young QB to groom. Jones will be here next year because of financial reasons. Even if he plays great, he is IMO only one injury away from a career ender. And until this OL is fixed, the probability of that is high.
Can DeVito be that guy? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd draft one of the top 3 QBs (Williams, Maye, Daniels (my favorite)), or if they are gone, get one in the 2nd round or trade up in the 1st. IMO it's a no-brainer at this point.
Jones cut/traded by the beginning of 2025 season, unless there is a miraculous turnaround. Draft pick and Devito to start 2025 season
Just because of stature and looks.
But at this point, the injuries have rendered the argument moot. Giants need to move forward and, at the very least, get a young QB to groom. Jones will be here next year because of financial reasons. Even if he plays great, he is IMO only one injury away from a career ender. And until this OL is fixed, the probability of that is high.
Can DeVito be that guy? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd draft one of the top 3 QBs (Williams, Maye, Daniels (my favorite)), or if they are gone, get one in the 2nd round or trade up in the 1st. IMO it's a no-brainer at this point.
Jones cut/traded by the beginning of 2025 season, unless there is a miraculous turnaround. Draft pick and Devito to start 2025 season
Agree with this. Never have been as down on Jones as some but it does not matter now with the neck injuries. Still not sold on DeVito as anything other than a feel good story. Would like to see the Giants draft BPA high this year and try to move back up into the late first round for one of the QBs just below the top 2. This team is so far from complete that just drafting a QB is not going to be the solution. Need at least 2 OL, one DL and likely a TE and S, assuming they lose McKinney.
How do Schoen and Daboll feel about the REST of the roster? If they feel they are "close" then it absolutely makes sense to somehow try and get "their guy" THIS YEAR in the draft.
If they feel they aren't that close after further evaluation - then I would say the strategy of non QB BPA for your first 3 picks might hold.
Not saying they are totally sold on 1 way or the other right now. But that's what it comes down to for me.
Schoen seems to be nailing some of these picks outside of Neal - jury is out on him obviously. I'd wager that if the Giants end up with the 7th pick, they will not fight to the death to move up for a QB.
I agree with your take and to me it’s also do I think Schoen and Daboll are right the guys? I do, and will trust they make the right decisions.
Thing is for me, I don’t see how people can think they’re the right guys but question just about every move. If someone isn’t in the Schoen/Daboll camp I’ve got no problems with their opinions or questioning the moves. It’s the ones who want it both ways I have trouble understanding. Ones who say they’re the right guys but pick them apart every chance they get.
I guess what I’m saying is we’re either all in with them or we’re not. If they’re the guys, trust they’ll get the QB situation right. Whether they draft one, trade for one, sign a vet or still see something in Jones. For me they’re the ones on the inside and I trust they’re the most knowledgeable and informed about it.
Jones is not the answer for all the reasons Eric and others have intelligently
articulated. I see Jones as a place setter for the next QB they draft this year.
Who that will be is above my pay grade. I've seen all the possible first round candidates play on TV this year and lukewarm about all of them.
They have to get one in the first two rounds even if not one of them is a lock to become the franchise QB. DJ is a warrior but at best he is just an average quarterback who I don't believe is capable of leading the team to a Super Bowl win. Schoen and Daboll have to get it right or we are in for many more years of lousy football
If you can't sell success, you have to sell hope.
Well done.
It doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks because it is out of our control. The Giants will remain in business irrespective of the decision.
It doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks because it is out of our control. The Giants will remain in business irrespective of the decision.
I have read this comment several times. How does trying something new at QB set the franchise back?
Maybe if we mortgage a ton of future picks to get a guy. But reality is this franchise can't be set back much lower anyway. We don't score and because of it we don't win enough games to be competitive in the division. We are nowhere.
There's middle ground in the evaluation of his ability.
There's no desperation for picking a QB. IF a decent candidate is staring you in the face on draft day, it would be foolish to pass him up. Whatever power influenced his contract will still support him, but that support has to have diminished this season. There's no point rooting for a team that is not ready to upgrade. But, not taking one doesn't mean the Giants brass/owners are sold on Jones. The cost to move up may be prohibitive, or there may not be a good enough candidate at our original draft spot. No point drafting another Jones just to draft one (I call that the true Go Terps option-take somebody...anybody). That's throwing away a draft pick, or not maximizing talent acquisition. Similar sentiment, but lower cost for taking a flier on a late first, or second round, QB. I think you move up if necessary to get a top choice, but not at any cost.
Too early for this conversation. It's possible that Devito will be on par with a second tier draft candidate by the end of the season if he keeps progressing. This could make him the flier QB, or the gap QB until we're in a better position to draft a replacement. We don't know the draft order, or the QB prospect order.
After 10 years of poor football the fans would have never went for us moving on from him after not only making the playoffs, but winning a game, so Schoen/Daboll were almost forced to resign him. Add on top of that the fact that our draft position took away the ability to draft a future franchise guy and the FA options such as Carr, weren't options I'd throw long term money at either.
So Jones playing well in 2022 left Schoen in a bad place. He almost had to resign him, but nothing about the contract signaled to me that he was really all that committed to him. As Eric said, the right move would have been to franchise Jones and overpay Saquon, but something tells me that given the players in question, it is likely Mara had some involvement/say in how these negotiations went down.
In Schoen's mind, I think the contract was to give them 2 more years to find "their guy" expecting Jones at least plays adequately. I don't think anyone, including myself, expected how fast things would go downhill to start the season.
With that being said, Joe no longer has 2 more years to replace him, we need someone in place, at least developing, next season. And while I do think by cleaning up the OL and adding a weapon Jones would be an average and capable starter, the fact that he's only made 1 full season out of 5 is the number 1 reason I'd move on from him. You need the leader of your team to be there every week, Jones has not shown he can do that.
As far as I'm concerned its DeVito's team for the rest of the year. And next season will be about developing someone we draft to be our next franchise guy. Jones role with the team going forward will be no more than that of a placeholder if whoever we draft is "developmental". Hopefully he plays well enough in this role to where someone will offer us some draft capital for him after the season.
Seeing an undrafted rookie FA QB come in and play better than your 5th year starting QB making $40M per year is enough evidence that it’s time to move on from Jones. And DeVito has an even worse group to play with than Jones had considering Waller has been out, additional injuries on the line, etc.
Honest question. If Jones were fully healthy right now who would you rather have out there against GB? Remember, it’s a prime time game which I believe Jones has never won. I would rather see DeVito out there myself. I just don’t trust Jones can get the job done.
2. If #1 is unattainable, draft another QB in the first 3 rounds to create competition in camp.
3. Let DJ recover and hopefully be the best and most expensive backup next year.
4. Re-evaluate where we are at QB (and rest of roster) after 2024 season ends.
George Young said a QB "gives your franchise hope".
Seeing an undrafted rookie FA QB come in and play better than your 5th year starting QB making $40M per year is enough evidence that it’s time to move on from Jones. And DeVito has an even worse group to play with than Jones had considering Waller has been out, additional injuries on the line, etc.
Honest question. If Jones were fully healthy right now who would you rather have out there against GB? Remember, it’s a prime time game which I believe Jones has never won. I would rather see DeVito out there myself. I just don’t trust Jones can get the job done.
Beat the Redskins last year, but I see your point.
Quote:
of this debate. My guess is there will be no winner. It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss or build the roster prioritizing the lines.
It doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks because it is out of our control. The Giants will remain in business irrespective of the decision.
I have read this comment several times. How does trying something new at QB set the franchise back?
Maybe if we mortgage a ton of future picks to get a guy. But reality is this franchise can't be set back much lower anyway. We don't score and because of it we don't win enough games to be competitive in the division. We are nowhere.
yeah I mean seriously - are we saying it can get worse?
I left the Jones side after the Rams game in 2021(?). Awful game. I have had enough of the blank stares at defenses.
I begrudgingly returned midway through last season when it looked like Daboll was getting through to him.
After the Eagles debacle, I started to get uneasy.
Felt better after camp and the one series he played in pre-season
Then reality....
Aside from the 2nd half of the Cardinals game it has been pure crap. The Seattle game was the coup de grace. All the evils reared their ugliness in plain view. A game there for the taking and a rookie DB played Jones like a fool.
No, IMV, Jones should be replaced and gotten rid of ASAP. A new QB (even if Bo Nix in the 2nd) is needed. Someone that can read a defense and get the ball out quickly to defeat the rush/blitz.
I've "tangled" with Terps and bw enough to know I was wrong.
So John Mara (or Bob Papa) if you are reading - do not fight Joe Schoen when he says it is time for a new QB, even if it costs next years #1 to move up. You well remember the plane over Giants Stadium in 1978....it may soon be making another flight!
I will admit to laughing at loud at that one, and then feeling ashamed for doing so.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
I wouldn't think Schoen would do that as he's smarter than that. But saying "we have to get a QB, we just have to take one" could backfire immensely if we draft a QB over an edge or WR group, or hell even OL.
Now, it could work out great if the QB is awesome. But Schoen is not going to take a 2nd tier QB in the first round, IMO.
But at this point, the injuries have rendered the argument moot. Giants need to move forward and, at the very least, get a young QB to groom. Jones will be here next year because of financial reasons. Even if he plays great, he is IMO only one injury away from a career ender. And until this OL is fixed, the probability of that is high.
Can DeVito be that guy? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd draft one of the top 3 QBs (Williams, Maye, Daniels (my favorite)), or if they are gone, get one in the 2nd round or trade up in the 1st. IMO it's a no-brainer at this point.
Jones cut/traded by the beginning of 2025 season, unless there is a miraculous turnaround. Draft pick and Devito to start 2025 season
Yep!
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
I agree. Team has mostly drafted based on "need" and it has backfired. Schoen took Thibodeaux where not a lot of mocks or even fans had him on the radar for our pick at 5. As it turns out, aside from Sauce Gardner and Garrett Wilson (QB driven performance) you could argue he's the best pick from that draft thus far.
it was in the history section and that is a pretty sucint history.
i think in general there's a lot of emotion wrapped up in the jones saga but it's still the same simple equation it was in 2022 when they were obviously willing to move on declining the 5yo. when they see a better option they will take it.
the only question is if they see a better option when they are on clock. there wasnt in 2022. i think 2024 will be different.
[quote I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones. [/quote]
I don't get this.
Is Philly and Dallas going to set the standard and keep playing at that level for five more years with no decline?
Unlikely.
I'm hoping the Williams trade had picking a future QB planned behind the scenes.
I know this offense is extremely difficult for receivers to learn. Look at what Hodgins said about it. Why is it that we always assume the adjusted offense was to simplify reads for DJ as much as simplifying reads/routes/options for the new receivers? This position is regularly stated and accepted as fact among Giants fans and analysts, but it seems to lack actual evidence to back it up, and to me it just seems more likely given the lack of experience @ receiver in the offense that it would be the latter rather than the former.
Love the rest of what you wrote and I think your opinion on this matter is well-reasoned.
The Cowboys and the Eagles are the bar. Plain and Fucking Simple. The Giants, with Jones or without, are a team that doesn't come close to the bar set by those two teams and we need to stop pretending we are even close. This team doesn't have lines both on offence and defense that can hold up to those teams. I don't give a shit who you march out there at QB, RB, WR, it doesn't matter.
I understand its got to start with QB, but its bigger then that, and what I don't like and I see it both will Dabs and Schoen is that there seems to be this stubbornness or arrogance admitting mistakes. Look at Neal. Schoen's comments in the latest conference are a great example of this guy's stubbornness. I don't want to hear well it took Andrew Thomas 3 years. Neal is a joke at RT. We have maybe one cog on the interior of the OL at this point. That's a fail. Look at the D line. You have Dex and Thibodeaux. That's it, and Thibs despite having 11 sacks this year, disappears at times. What's he done again the Eagles and Cowboy's? AGAIN MESSURE YOUR OUTPUT AND RESULTS AGAINST THE BOYS AND THE EAGLES. That's the line fellas! Hey Coach, Hey GM...YOUR NOT JUST A SNIFF AWAY!
IN fact, we are not even close.
The Cowboys and the Eagles are the bar. Plain and Fucking Simple. The Giants, with Jones or without, are a team that doesn't come close to the bar set by those two teams and we need to stop pretending we are even close. This team doesn't have lines both on offence and defense that can hold up to those teams. I don't give a shit who you march out there at QB, RB, WR, it doesn't matter.
I understand its got to start with QB, but its bigger then that, and what I don't like and I see it both will Dabs and Schoen is that there seems to be this stubbornness or arrogance admitting mistakes. Look at Neal. Schoen's comments in the latest conference are a great example of this guy's stubbornness. I don't want to hear well it took Andrew Thomas 3 years. Neal is a joke at RT. We have maybe one cog on the interior of the OL at this point. That's a fail. Look at the D line. You have Dex and Thibodeaux. That's it, and Thibs despite having 11 sacks this year, disappears at times. What's he done again the Eagles and Cowboy's? AGAIN MESSURE YOUR OUTPUT AND RESULTS AGAINST THE BOYS AND THE EAGLES. That's the line fellas! Hey Coach, Hey GM...YOUR NOT JUST A SNIFF AWAY!
IN fact, we are not even close.
You can't stack teams like it's the 80s any more.
Putting all those pieces in place, and holding them together, is a lot harder.
Or you can get the right QB.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
I've been a big Jones supporter - possibly a homer - since the first game vs the Bucs, but even I have had to be realistic about the situation this year.
Yes, there are glimpses of greatness. But I feel that whatever greatness he has won't be fully realized until he goes somewhere else. It's been much more disastrous than successful here, and he just might be too broken to succeed here. Yes our O line is a travesty - but it's also just as bad for Taylor and DeVito. Why is it that they're not afraid to uncork it down the field and Jones looks like he's playing against 15 people on defense?
I like Jones a lot and think he can be successful in this league. I'd still love for it to be here in 2024 and I'll root for that. But I admit it's not realistic. A stopgap year with a rookie QB in the wings and then Jones moves on is the most likely outcome and probably best for DJ and the Giants.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
I wouldn't think Schoen would do that as he's smarter than that. But saying "we have to get a QB, we just have to take one" could backfire immensely if we draft a QB over an edge or WR group, or hell even OL.
Now, it could work out great if the QB is awesome. But Schoen is not going to take a 2nd tier QB in the first round, IMO.
If we know Schoen shouldn't force a bad pick, and you know he knows he shouldn't force a bad pick then this is moot. Yet a lot of posters think this is some value-add concept to add into their respective posts...it's not.
We should be far more concerned the Giants force a bad decision to stay with a non-productive QB like Jones than force a bad decision with a new prospect. Far more.
That sucks that your web browser forces you to open and read threads without you making the conscious decision to do so. Have you tried turning your device off and turning it back on again?
Watch him throw, and I’m not just walking about the release. His mechanics right now are not NFL caliber.
Serious question - what other organizations in the NFL would be this magnanimous by giving their mediocre QB a sixth-year audition?
Watch him throw, and I’m not just walking about the release. His mechanics right now are not NFL caliber.
Can you be more specific? What is his arm/body doing wrong?
You cannot just look at stats and assume that the player is going to be awesome in the pros.
I guess the hope was that he would make progress with a better offense around him. But, that didn't happen.
The Giants have to move on.
So the Giants COULD do better than Jones, but it's no slam dunk and part of it depends on what you have to give up and how they rate these young QBs.
My take is it's possible to win a Super Bowl with Jones, but he would have to get better at post-snap processing and anticipating open receivers, and evaluating the whole field. But he might not be able to do that (look, no one really knows), he has to avoid injury maybe with a better OL and he would need to overall have a strong supporting cast. If they could trade up for Maye or something the truth is he might not work out, and the question will be what you have to give up.
So I kind of feel like Shoen is genuinely undecided at this point, and I personally don't feel strongly one way or the other. I'm in the let's see how it plays out mode, and I genuinely believe Shoen is in the best place to make that kind of decision. It's a little unsatisfying at this point but might be the reality
On all of these highlights I’m seeing and throws I’m watching for Daniels, he almost has zero push from his lower body on these throws. Watch it carefully. His legs and base are tiny, and he’s putting all of his “throw” with his arm. Which is what others have said on his scouting report.
Which is why, in my opinion, he does not have the ability to make all the throws in the NFL. Having a quick release is great. That means nothing to me. His mechanics and power are so off and he’s a long way away, IMO.
You cannot just look at stats and assume that the player is going to be awesome in the pros.
How do you know he isn't a starter quality? He literally had his first NFL practice less than 24 hours ago
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Hendon Hooker threw for 5 TDs against Alabama, yet he is not a NFL starting caliber quarterback.
You cannot just look at stats and assume that the player is going to be awesome in the pros.
How do you know he isn't a starter quality? He literally had his first NFL practice less than 24 hours ago
Hooker will be 26 in January.
Highly doubtful he becomes a good NFL starter.
You don't get rid of a QB just for cost but if you are going to pay a QB then it has to be for a special QB. When you factor in the injury history then a really special QB. Hard to make this argument for Jones.
Just be right on the next QB selection and take care of him better by getting better players around him (especially OL) and other spots. I also think the coaching/scheme/team building emphasis may have some issues.
On all of these highlights I’m seeing and throws I’m watching for Daniels, he almost has zero push from his lower body on these throws. Watch it carefully. His legs and base are tiny, and he’s putting all of his “throw” with his arm. Which is what others have said on his scouting report.
Which is why, in my opinion, he does not have the ability to make all the throws in the NFL. Having a quick release is great. That means nothing to me. His mechanics and power are so off and he’s a long way away, IMO.
Well that is a silly look. He is making those throws even without using his lower body. You don't think that a NFL QB coach wouldn't correct that?
Watch him throw, and I’m not just walking about the release. His mechanics right now are not NFL caliber.
What the hell are NFL caliber mechanics? Jones taps the ball when he throws. LJax typically doesn't set his feet and throws mostly with his arm. Josh Allen throws off his back foot half the time with a flick of the wrist. Tua looks like he's throwing a javelin.
Daniels has a lightening release and can throw the ball at a variety of angles with pace.
Sorry, and no offense, but you are high on this one...
We are also in a great spot for a dynamic edge or WR, and OL in round 2. Something to be said for those positions while we continue to build up the roster.
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As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
You do realize the majority of those defenses are awful? Its not the same SEC as it was 5-10 years ago... lol
I could buy that if they have to defer to Mara's prototype QB for the "mean NY market"...
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Daniels is not a “brilliant” dual threat prospect.
Watch him throw, and I’m not just walking about the release. His mechanics right now are not NFL caliber.
What the hell are NFL caliber mechanics? Jones taps the ball when he throws. LJax typically doesn't set his feet and throws mostly with his arm. Josh Allen throws off his back foot half the time with a flick of the wrist. Tua looks like he's throwing a javelin.
Daniels has a lightening release and can throw the ball at a variety of angles with pace.
Sorry, and no offense, but you are high on this one...
bw, here's a recent scouting report from November 2023:
Jayden Daniels Draft Profile | LSU, QB Scouting Report
Jayden Daniels burst back onto the scene at LSU in 2022 and 2023 after fading into obscurity in Tempe, but what does his NFL Draft scouting report look like?
By
Dalton Miller
November 21, 2023 | 2:30 PM EST
Jayden Daniels had the LSU Tigers ranked fifth in the nation prior to the 2023 college football season. There’s a chance that the fifth-year senior is the best quarterback in the SEC, but what does his NFL Draft projection look like, and how does his scouting report read?
PFN Merchandise
Jayden Daniels Draft Profile and Measurements
Height: 6’4″
Weight: 210
Position: Quarterback
School: LSU
Current Year: Senior
Life is funny sometimes. In 2019, two “Slim Reapers” burst onto the college football scene. One of those players was Alabama’s DeVonta Smith, who caught 68 passes for 1,256 yards and 14 touchdowns while standing at six feet tall and weighing 160 pounds soaking wet.
The other was Daniels down in Tempe, Ariz. Standing 6’3″, the true freshman was listed at 175 pounds. Narrow shoulders and a paper-thin frame made him look even smaller than he was. But the young passer burst onto the scene as a freshman, throwing for 2,943 yards, 17 touchdowns, and only two interceptions. Daniels added 355 yards and three more TDs on the ground that year.
After struggling through the COVID-19-shortened 2020 season and again in 2021, Daniels transferred to LSU for 2022. After a surprising SEC West-winning season, the transfer QB was back in NFL Draft scopes. He performed well in 2022.
But he exploded in 2023. He is the likely recipient of the Heisman Trophy in 2023.
Jayden Daniels Scouting Report
Strengths
Manipulates second and third-level defenders
Spot zone coverage annihilator
Great quick game feel
Intermediate rhythm throws are automatic
Creativity to escape pressure
Lack of panic under pressure
Disciplined feet create throwing hallways vs. pressure
Quick release
Explosive lateral mover with good vision
Big-play threat every time he carries the football. Electric runner
Weaknesses
Moderate velocity
Absolutely no contact balance
Inconsistent release sporadically leads to horrendous wobblers
Has “on” and “off” days regarding ball placement
Post-snap coverage rotations can catch him by surprise
Takes far too many unnecessary hits
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In comment 16308464 ryanmkeane said:
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As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
You do realize the majority of those defenses are awful? Its not the same SEC as it was 5-10 years ago... lol
Yes, it is better....
Matt Stafford had mediocre stats at Georgia. He went #1 for a reason.
Quote:
In comment 16308464 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
You do realize the majority of those defenses are awful? Its not the same SEC as it was 5-10 years ago... lol
I sorta agree with this - scouts aren't looking at college stats. They are projecting what he can do at the pro level.
Having said that - the NFL QB (and offenses) has changed dramatically over the last 5-7 years, and they can fit a variety of differently styled QBs.
There's a long way to go - combines, individual workouts, interviews, etc.......
really hit me. I can't believe he's going to be entering year 6. It feels like he's in his third year still.
That one line might have changed my entire perspective.
Josh Allen played at Wyoming.
The rookie DB who didn't know to keep his mouth shut:
"We knew he liked to stare down his first target."
I've only heard that about QBs who have not succeeded at this level, like Brady Quinn.
The rookie DB who didn't know to keep his mouth shut:
"We knew he liked to stare down his first target."
I've only heard that about QBs who have not succeeded at this level, like Brady Quinn.
The Eagles DBs said the same thing last year after the playoff game.
Why should he keep his mouth shut. He ate Jones' lunch.
Strengths
Benefitted working under QB guru David Cutcliffe at Duke
Did more with less at skill positions
Quick worker through progressions
Early recognition of deep ball opportunities and feathers throws into the target
Adjusts pre-snap plan to blitz and exploits hot-read opportunities
Consistent footwork from pocket with feet following eyes
Outstanding accuracy on intermediate throws
Uses fastball when he needs it, but generally throws with touch
Drives field-side throws with velocity
Courage to hang in the pocket and throw despite impending blow
Completion percentage hurt by high drop rate
Displays feel for pressure off the edge
Good athlete with scrambling ability to move the chains
Slick pocket slider with ability to keep searching for target or flee for yardage
Weaknesses
Thin in his lower body
Had 12 passes batted down at line of scrimmage in 2018
Benefitted from heavy play-action/RPO scheme
Incessant patting of the ball through progressions
Waits an extra step before cutting it loose too often
Average release speed slowed by small windup
Attempts throws into some impossible windows
Needs to work ahead of schedule more often on next level
Succumbs to off-platform tosses rather than working into better positioning
Showed willingness to throw it up for grabs rather than take sack
Loose ball handling in face of pressure leads to fumbles
Too much bravado as a runner
Took licks when slides or dashes out of bounds were options
I will never understand the attachment to this player. The same people don't hesitate to rip other players on the team, but young Daniel is treated like a martyr. I will never understand it.
They would cut him in 2025 for a dead cap of 22M.
4.2 jump in YPA. 17 TD's to 40. 1000 more yards in passing.
2.4 increase in YPC.
You see jumps in production going from 1st year starting to years after. Certainly talent around the QB can factor for any season. But this Daniels season really stands out to his previous years.
You haven't seen Daniel Jones take deep shots ever as a pro?
How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
The debate will only rage on as the Giants drop further in the draft order, and give the brass a potential out on seriously pursuing a QB in the '24 draft.
No more half-measures, no more punting on obvious mistakes, man up and move forward with some fookin' courage.
In hindsight, I never had an issue with passing on the 5th year. I did think they were going to Franchise him. I think, they think, that they could have Barkley and Jones back in the scenario that played out. They bet on Jones getting better.
However, his injury record is the problem. This is the risk with any "running" qb on your team. RGIII as mentioned, is a perfect example.
I will be surprised if they go QB early in Round 1. I can see them doing the hedge and trading up in the late Rd1 or just staying and drafting in round 2.
They just have too many needs right now. It would not shock me if they get a QB in Rd 2 or 3 as a development QB. They let DJ start if he's healthy then, they keep DeVito as a backup.
Then they look for a QB in 2025 or a Free agent.
The debate will only rage on as the Giants drop further in the draft order, and give the brass a potential out on seriously pursuing a QB in the '24 draft.
No more half-measures, no more punting on obvious mistakes, man up and move forward with some fookin' courage.
Do you think Schoen would value Odunze or Nabers?
They BETTER realize it. And gambling on Jones health/ growth is not exactly job security.
Blueworm, mentioned if something along the lines of "if you can't market success, market hope".
That's exactly WHY they should move on NOW. Move heaven and earth to draft a new QB. It buys you more good will AND time from ownership.
If they put all their chips with Jones and he flames out (which is what his career has been up until now), then are likely gone after next season.
Do they really want to take that chance?
There's a reason why they are HEAVILLY scouting this QB class, putting a lot of time AND resources into it.
I would be SHOCKED if they don't take a QB at #1 and if it means using draft capital to get in position, so be it!
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another Daniel Jones thread
That sucks that your web browser forces you to open and read threads without you making the conscious decision to do so. Have you tried turning your device off and turning it back on again?
It's a joke, not a wanker. Don't take it so hard.
His injury history by itself means that he can't be the future QB of the Giants. So draft a QB in the first or second round and cut Jones after the 2024 season, even though doing so means a $22M cap hit. His contract is a classic "sunk cost." There's nothing the Giants can do about it, just like with Golladay and Solder.
Trust me on this. Watch Brian Thomas, Jr the "other WR" for LSU. He's unbelievable with his size, catch radius, and explosion.
He'll be in the first round, too.
On all of these highlights I’m seeing and throws I’m watching for Daniels, he almost has zero push from his lower body on these throws. Watch it carefully. His legs and base are tiny, and he’s putting all of his “throw” with his arm. Which is what others have said on his scouting report.
Which is why, in my opinion, he does not have the ability to make all the throws in the NFL. Having a quick release is great. That means nothing to me. His mechanics and power are so off and he’s a long way away, IMO.
Thanks for responding.
When I see Daniels play, he is an exciting prospect on many fronts. While reviews may reveal some mechanics that need work, his passing prowess is exponentially better than a year ago. His developmental work this past offseason has really paid off and I don't think his reviewers have caught up yet with how much his game has improved with his head/arm versus just his feet.
I think come next March everybody will be offering him up as not only a sure top 3 pick, but likely #1 overall.
Strengths
Benefitted working under QB guru David Cutcliffe at Duke
Did more with less at skill positions
Quick worker through progressions
Early recognition of deep ball opportunities and feathers throws into the target
Adjusts pre-snap plan to blitz and exploits hot-read opportunities
Consistent footwork from pocket with feet following eyes
Outstanding accuracy on intermediate throws
Uses fastball when he needs it, but generally throws with touch
Drives field-side throws with velocity
Courage to hang in the pocket and throw despite impending blow
Completion percentage hurt by high drop rate
Displays feel for pressure off the edge
Good athlete with scrambling ability to move the chains
Slick pocket slider with ability to keep searching for target or flee for yardage
Weaknesses
Thin in his lower body
Had 12 passes batted down at line of scrimmage in 2018
Benefitted from heavy play-action/RPO scheme
Incessant patting of the ball through progressions
Waits an extra step before cutting it loose too often
Average release speed slowed by small windup
Attempts throws into some impossible windows
Needs to work ahead of schedule more often on next level
Succumbs to off-platform tosses rather than working into better positioning
Showed willingness to throw it up for grabs rather than take sack
Loose ball handling in face of pressure leads to fumbles
Too much bravado as a runner
Took licks when slides or dashes out of bounds were options
I agree that this is a pretty accurate scouting report, although a couple of the strengths stand out to me as questionable now after years of observation (bolded above):
Adjusts pre-snap plan to blitz and exploits hot-read opportunities
This supposed strength has never translated to the NFL, so much so that I question the veracity of the scouting report on this particular element. Just this year there were a few instances of DJ having poor pre-snap blitz recognition and no feel for the resulting hot-read opportunities.
Drives field-side throws with velocity
This one feels accurate, but the reason why it stands out to me is that Daboll and Kafka tend to run the passing game almost exclusively to the boundary side. Even if field side arm strength is a plus for DJ, it's wasted in this offense anyway.
Displays feel for pressure off the edge
This has felt inaccurate to me from DJ's rookie year on and has not improved by any substantial measure in the years since. But even going back to 2019, the fumbles from DJ have always seemed like they were at least partially due to DJ not sensing the backside pressure coming off the edge, and we still saw that happen against Seattle this year. I don't know if this "strength" was ever true and I don't think it's true now.
And then there are the listed weaknesses - are there any that we can definitively say have improved in five years? Maybe the willingness to throw into impossible windows, but that one seems to have come at the expense of becoming a bit too risk-averse in the process. It's tough for a lot of QBs to find the right balance on that, and I think DJ's swings have been a bit more volatile.
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In comment 16308332 KDavies said:
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another Daniel Jones thread
That sucks that your web browser forces you to open and read threads without you making the conscious decision to do so. Have you tried turning your device off and turning it back on again?
It's a joke, not a wanker. Don't take it so hard.
You and your jokes. I always forget how funny you are!
However, this is bigger than Jones.
The point of the article is the risk to the front office/coaching staff of making the wrong choice.
Now, the Giants have a higher pick, multiple 2nd rounders, and a deep QB draft staring at them. Plus Jones injuries have made in clear that they need to bring in another young QB.
The point of the article is the risk to the front office/coaching staff of making the wrong choice.
And, for the second time.
4.2 jump in YPA. 17 TD's to 40. 1000 more yards in passing.
2.4 increase in YPC.
You see jumps in production going from 1st year starting to years after. Certainly talent around the QB can factor for any season. But this Daniels season really stands out to his previous years.
Burrow, I believe, also had a big bump in his metrics from his 1st to 2nd (final year) at LSU.
As a freshman as Arizona State, Daniels had an excellent debut. He outplayed Herbert when ASU beat the Ducks (who were #6).
Things started to fall apart for the entire ASU program when they got called out for recruiting violations and Daniel's mom was accused of coordinating for the payments of travel for recruits and their parents.
He's not good enough. In the year where he had his career year, he only threw 15 TD's. That doesn't warrant $40m per year.
The culture of excuses is so tiring.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
On all of these highlights I’m seeing and throws I’m watching for Daniels, he almost has zero push from his lower body on these throws. Watch it carefully. His legs and base are tiny, and he’s putting all of his “throw” with his arm. Which is what others have said on his scouting report.
Which is why, in my opinion, he does not have the ability to make all the throws in the NFL. Having a quick release is great. That means nothing to me. His mechanics and power are so off and he’s a long way away, IMO.
I appreciate your thoughtful post on this, Ryan.
My response would be that I think you're viewing something as a weakness that might actually be a strength. The very nature of that quick release might be rooted in a throwing motion that appears to be entirely arm-driven and not requiring the base to be fully set with a lower half drive on the ball. Just thinking about having to set his legs and drive from his lower body would require a much longer release, IMO.
That's not intended to dismiss your concern, to be clear. Just that I think the ability to throw with a flick of the wrist and without having to set his lower half is a tremendous strength for a QB, not a liability.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
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As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
Caleb Williams is going #1. Daniels will be a top-7 consolation prize, maybe to the Giants.
Because in all honesty - it is the #1 reason why I would not draft him in the first round, but that is just me. I've seen plenty of QBs with his frame get destroyed in the NFL due to running and not be able to hold up over time.
It depends on whether GMs think he can bulk up.
I trust JS to be a better evaluator of talent so I trust him to pick the QB he feels is best.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
You do realize the majority of those defenses are awful? Its not the same SEC as it was 5-10 years ago... lol
Who else in the SEC is putting up something even remotely similar to JD's production?
JD's numbers are mind boggling.
I trust JS to be a better evaluator of talent so I trust him to pick the QB he feels is best.
+1
I love a good conspiracy :) ... but I honestly think it starts there.
It's time to move on from Jones, after next year of course.
Because in all honesty - it is the #1 reason why I would not draft him in the first round, but that is just me. I've seen plenty of QBs with his frame get destroyed in the NFL due to running and not be able to hold up over time.
It depends on whether GMs think he can bulk up.
Running QBs take a beating in the NFL, without question.
Daniels though has become such a more polished throwing QB this year and relies far more on his arm than a year ago. That is why his passing numbers are off the charts this year, while his rushing hasn't missed a beat in the meanwhile.
His trajectory as a dynamic passer, who can also be a dangerous runner, is why you draft him. Not the reverse.
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Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
It also doesn't mean that we ignore the Eagles playoff game or the previous 4 years...as a whole he has had 1 good year, 3 bad years and his rookie season that appeared to be a psoitive if 18 fumbles and 12 INTs in 12 games is good.
Because in all honesty - it is the #1 reason why I would not draft him in the first round, but that is just me. I've seen plenty of QBs with his frame get destroyed in the NFL due to running and not be able to hold up over time.
It depends on whether GMs think he can bulk up.
The NFL is about talent. If you have the talent, the best coaching on the planet can help with any mechanic adjustments as long as the player is amenable to coaching.
I think what's going on here with Daniels is how much he popped this year after being a prospect that was likely a day three prospect. So, it's sort of stunning people. But we've seen this before with guys like Burrow.
And he didn't do this is the Conference USA, the Sunbelt Conference or the Mountain West Conference. It's the best competition in America - the SEC.
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Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
What if we say it another way, and I think someone else on here made this point a few days ago:
2022 does count, but we've seen DJ have success before when he's operating in ways that teams haven't seen before. We saw it when he was a rookie and there was no NFL tape on him, and we saw it in 2022 when there was no tape on him in Daboll/Kafka's offense. And what we've also seen is that the league adjusts to his success much more quickly than he adjusts to their adjustments. DJ's success has now twice been followed by a crash back to earth.
What DJ and the Giants did in 2022 matters, but it matters less than 2023 because 2023 is the current point that we're working from going forward. And the ability to adapt to opponents taking away what worked for him in the past is something we have not seen happen with DJ.
So, unless and until we get new evidence to the contrary, how can anyone be certain that 2023 isn't the beginning of a repeat of 2020/2021? It was pretty obvious right from the opener this year that the Cowboys were prepared for a heavy dose of play-action, for example - they were ignoring the play fake and rushing DJ as though it was a regular dropback. We knew that the Giants used playaction more than almost any other team in 2022, and that was a big part of DJ's success. So when that was taken away, what was DJ's next move going to be? This year, there wasn't one. And there are plenty of excuses that might be valid. But this isn't a one-off scenario, IMO - the league seems to catch up to DJ and then he struggles without the cheat codes.
It's time to move on from Jones, after next year of course.
I agree with all that is said ... However what if Jones makes the adjustment about keeping his eyes down field vs tuck and run to go into scramble mode AND his eyes are still scanning. Jones sitting on the sideline watching can let him see his errors much easier. He is a hard worker that is willing to change and grow.
the 5th year option was the right call. But then Schoen/Daboll would have to hear that they got their jobs becuase they agreed to keep Jones. Had they done that, 1) Jones would had to have shown progress and health for 2 years before getting a new deal. No 1 year fluke would do it 2) it would have been cheap and 3) it would be done after this year with no cap implications.
he is what he is. An avg QB with good athleticism and work ethic with a 11-16 ceiling, 17-22 floor. Not bad, not great.
going forward, they have to get a QB because even if they loved him as a QB, he's had 2 serious neck injuries and an ACL. They can't risk the success of the franchise on that.
I'm not that guy. But the production matches up with the talent. The explosion Daniels has when he hits the accelerator to run is elite for a QB. Just a high end turn of foot.
As for his throwing, the release and ability to make off schedule plays jump of the screen.
1.) their rookie year
AND
2.) their contract year
You cannot just look at stats and assume that the player is going to be awesome in the pros.
You do realize that Hooker was injured and just had his first NFL practice yesterday? Was he supposed to win the starting job while on IR?
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"A game there for the taking and a rookie DB played Jones like a fool." -didn't quote it properly, credit author
The rookie DB who didn't know to keep his mouth shut:
"We knew he liked to stare down his first target."
I've only heard that about QBs who have not succeeded at this level, like Brady Quinn.
The Eagles DBs said the same thing last year after the playoff game.
Why should he keep his mouth shut. He ate Jones' lunch.
Well, decorum, mostly.
But, I wouldn't broadcast weaknesses of opponents -exploit them- but don't let everyone, including them know. They might work on it.
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In comment 16308627 The Mike said:
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Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
What if we say it another way, and I think someone else on here made this point a few days ago:
2022 does count, but we've seen DJ have success before when he's operating in ways that teams haven't seen before. We saw it when he was a rookie and there was no NFL tape on him, and we saw it in 2022 when there was no tape on him in Daboll/Kafka's offense. And what we've also seen is that the league adjusts to his success much more quickly than he adjusts to their adjustments. DJ's success has now twice been followed by a crash back to earth.
What DJ and the Giants did in 2022 matters, but it matters less than 2023 because 2023 is the current point that we're working from going forward. And the ability to adapt to opponents taking away what worked for him in the past is something we have not seen happen with DJ.
So, unless and until we get new evidence to the contrary, how can anyone be certain that 2023 isn't the beginning of a repeat of 2020/2021? It was pretty obvious right from the opener this year that the Cowboys were prepared for a heavy dose of play-action, for example - they were ignoring the play fake and rushing DJ as though it was a regular dropback. We knew that the Giants used playaction more than almost any other team in 2022, and that was a big part of DJ's success. So when that was taken away, what was DJ's next move going to be? This year, there wasn't one. And there are plenty of excuses that might be valid. But this isn't a one-off scenario, IMO - the league seems to catch up to DJ and then he struggles without the cheat codes.
good observation
Josh Allen played at Wyoming.
Joe Burrow played in the SEC and he had Chase as his #1 WR.
What I've been harping about, is everything BEFORE this year is no longer relevant.
The organization HAS to be in a different place regarding him, because of the 2nd neck injury and ACL.
Going forward with him (long term) WILL get these two fired.
If he gets injured (seriously) again next year (and history says he WILL), then the betting odds are that Mara won't trust them anymore and we get to start over- again.
Its bad to be in a position to have to force a QB pick, but here we are- again!
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
So intense because a couple of individuals are trying change people’s minds. Sell out the franchise to get anybody but Jones. One person believes we should draft 3 QBs. Some of us have other outside interests. I wonder if this debate will continue until next May.
the 5th year option was the right call. But then Schoen/Daboll would have to hear that they got their jobs becuase they agreed to keep Jones. Had they done that, 1) Jones would had to have shown progress and health for 2 years before getting a new deal. No 1 year fluke would do it 2) it would have been cheap and 3) it would be done after this year with no cap implications.
he is what he is. An avg QB with good athleticism and work ethic with a 11-16 ceiling, 17-22 floor. Not bad, not great.
going forward, they have to get a QB because even if they loved him as a QB, he's had 2 serious neck injuries and an ACL. They can't risk the success of the franchise on that.
Great post, bottom line is we need to turn the page. Good writeup Eric. Focus now should be on whether Tommy Touchdown can be a viable low cost backup.
They BETTER realize it. And gambling on Jones health/ growth is not exactly job security.
Blueworm, mentioned if something along the lines of "if you can't market success, market hope".
That's exactly WHY they should move on NOW. Move heaven and earth to draft a new QB. It buys you more good will AND time from ownership.
If they put all their chips with Jones and he flames out (which is what his career has been up until now), then are likely gone after next season.
Do they really want to take that chance?
There's a reason why they are HEAVILLY scouting this QB class, putting a lot of time AND resources into it.
I would be SHOCKED if they don't take a QB at #1 and if it means using draft capital to get in position, so be it!
Why would they be on thin ice? Mara was involved with the Jones contract. This was discussed. They can draft the replacement in 2025.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
Were the Giants close in 2004 when they traded up giving up multiple draft picks including their 2004 and 2005 1st round picks for Eli Manning? That team was a bigger dumpster fire than this one yet they went out and traded all that for a franchise QB.
Were the Texans considered "close" going into this season? They were projected to finish with a likely top 5 pick and yet Stroud has elevated the entire franchise. QB is the most important position in football and as we have seen numerous times they can mask a lot of holes on the roster.
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I just really don't understand the intense focus on the QB. This team is not close. This team has not been close for 12 years.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
So intense because a couple of individuals are trying change people’s minds. Sell out the franchise to get anybody but Jones. One person believes we should draft 3 QBs. Some of us have other outside interests. I wonder if this debate will continue until next May.
This argument is basically saying that no QB matters, the rest of the roster is the only determining factor.
Someone should alert the NFL because it seems like most teams are just pissing away massive money on guys that are passengers on the roster.
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It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss
How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
They could draft the wrong QB again, there's no protection against it. But, they need to admit the QB mistake and move off it, otherwise this franchise is stuck in the mud. This decision precedes any other roster decision, no matter all the other holes.
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In comment 16308413 joe48 said:
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It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss
How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
You literally just said if you miss on a high QB draft pick, it will really set the franchise back. How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
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In comment 16308588 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16308413 joe48 said:
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It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss
How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
You literally just said if you miss on a high QB draft pick, it will really set the franchise back. How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
Four years so far.
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In comment 16308413 joe48 said:
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It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss
How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
No one has said it's the QB only. Cease. And, you're free to skip these threads.
I would have liked to see what Jones could have done with a consistently competent offensive line in front of him. I've read and listened to a lot of commentary about Jones' reluctance to take down-field shots, to throw to certain areas of the field, not taking advantage of opportunities. They can't all be wrong. I've also read comments here about how good QBs compensate for bad O-lines. Maybe so. But imo, no QB could have performed well with the offensive line play at the beginning of this season. It was football malpractice. The O line is still bad but not nearly as bad as it was in Sept. and Oct. and Tommy DeVito is very fortunate in this regard.
So, I'm in with the time to move on contingent. I hope Schoen was being careful with his comments about drafting a QB. If he and Daboll believe their Josh Allen is available at the top of this draft, I hope they go and get him instead of settling for a second or third tier player. I also hope they can solve the Evan Neal enigma and/or find a competent right tackle in free agency that can either start or provide quality depth.
It also wouldn't shock me that somewhere down the line, a healthy Daniel Jones winds up playing QB at a high level for another team. I think John Mara is right. The Giants did screw the kid up and I hope he gets a real second chance somewhere else.
However, this is bigger than Jones.
The point of the article is the risk to the front office/coaching staff of making the wrong choice.
I think they understand unless you don’t trust the GM and Coach. If that is true then they should not be running the draft. A few people are beating the drums that we have get the best QB no matter what the cost. I believe they are in the the minority but keep the debate going.
As an example: "DJ, we have no plans to have you start now or in the future, we'll give you 40M to go away and then you can go and try to get picked up by another team"
I don't understand exactly how an injury settlement works in regard to the CAP, or if it is even worth it
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As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
And, which one, or more, of those SEC teams has a defense as good as the worst defensive team in the NFL?
Comparing the NFL to college is like comparing apples to oranges (or better yet, lemons).
And that's not even considering his contract or injuries. It's time to move on and I can't even fathom how that is debatable.
I don't care how nice he is or how hard he works. I need a QB that can produce touchdowns. He hasn't proven he can.
After years of being told by a segment of fans that the Giants couldn't possibly find someone better than Jones, via draft or FA.
In the Draft for no other reason than the uncertainty of Daniel Jones’ long-term health. And for those who think he’s a below-grade QB, you can add that reason as well.
But I find all the negative feelings about Daniel Jones somewhat odd for a very simple reason: You may feel he’s a big part of the problem, but I 100% believe this entire franchise, this entire team and — to name just one unit — the epic 12-year fail of the offensive line are so much more deserving of criticism. Daniel Jones is a distant second to all that mess.
I like DJ as a person, but as my QB going forward...the guy that needs to beat the big boys, consecutive weeks in the playoffs and the big game....I don't see it.
But I agree with the consensus here.....which of the college QB's gives us that best chance, can play in NY and elevate the rest of the team's play.
We have to get this right or it's continued frustration. The Eagles pivoted quickly off Wentz to Hurts. We can't seem to do that well. Hopefully Schoen proves me wrong.
If Giants have the #2 overall pick in 2024 which they likely will not, it would be an obvious outcome to take Williams or Maye depending on who was there.
The QB either starts the project or is part of the project from the start. Otherwise you are simply wasting the time of everyone else on the roster. Teams that succeed with below-average QB play are a rarity, and the examples of roster building then QB - the Bucs adding Brady and the Rams adding Stafford - are not realistic equivalent options right now. And with regards to the Cowboys and Niners: both Purdy and Dak are good QBs. Are they great? Maybe not, but both teams would struggle with bottom 3rd QB play.
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
What will set the Giants back further if they decide to pass on a QB in the draft and commit to Jones yet again. Daboll will be fired and they will have yet another coaching change which will then cause the remaining Jones supporters to claim that he should get the 2025 season to prove himself under his 4th HC.
Having said that, I don't know how you can read that and think "maybe Jones should be the guy in 2024." Jones has had a thousand chances to show what he can do - even with a hideously mismanaged roster, and it isn't much. This roster is still a couple of years from competing with Dallas and Philadelphia. I can't see any scenario where running it back with Jones for 2-3 years makes any sense. This guy is not going somewhere else and turning into Tom Brady. Maybe he goes somewhere else and becomes Joe Flacco.
Schoen made a mistake signing Jones to the extension that he did. The question for him now is can he recognize the mistake and do something to mitigate it, or will we just start Jones next year and act surprised when he plays like Daniel Jones?
If Giants have the #2 overall pick in 2024 which they likely will not, it would be an obvious outcome to take Williams or Maye depending on who was there.
Yes but 3 QB's went in the top 5. Young has struggled mightily but he is in an incredibly tough situation because his weapons are among the worst in the NFL. Stroud is having the best season of a rookie QB in NFL history. Hell even Anthony Richardson looked great until his injury. Richardson's stats in college were very bad and he was expected to need a year on the bench but he performed surprisingly well. This year there are three QB's I would love to see the Giants draft and if they pass on any of them then I will lose alot of faith in the FO.
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Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
If you can't see at this point, given what we have now seen in 2023 from Tyrod and DeVito, that 2022 was simply Daboll masterminding a remedial scheme to account for DJ's limitations, then you still don't get it and probably never will. Denial is a powerful thing.
DJ beat three good teams last year. The Ravens beat themselves, the Jaguars had a terrible start who only rebounded in November after we beat them, and the Vikings were arguably the worst defense to ever host a playoff game. The Eagles playoff game should have been the tell that the league had figured out how to effectively scheme against Daboll's approach.
Schoen missed it. Big mistake. Pivot quickly now. Get DJ's replacement in April.
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In comment 16308627 The Mike said:
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Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
What if we say it another way, and I think someone else on here made this point a few days ago:
2022 does count, but we've seen DJ have success before when he's operating in ways that teams haven't seen before. We saw it when he was a rookie and there was no NFL tape on him, and we saw it in 2022 when there was no tape on him in Daboll/Kafka's offense. And what we've also seen is that the league adjusts to his success much more quickly than he adjusts to their adjustments. DJ's success has now twice been followed by a crash back to earth.
What DJ and the Giants did in 2022 matters, but it matters less than 2023 because 2023 is the current point that we're working from going forward. And the ability to adapt to opponents taking away what worked for him in the past is something we have not seen happen with DJ.
So, unless and until we get new evidence to the contrary, how can anyone be certain that 2023 isn't the beginning of a repeat of 2020/2021? It was pretty obvious right from the opener this year that the Cowboys were prepared for a heavy dose of play-action, for example - they were ignoring the play fake and rushing DJ as though it was a regular dropback. We knew that the Giants used playaction more than almost any other team in 2022, and that was a big part of DJ's success. So when that was taken away, what was DJ's next move going to be? This year, there wasn't one. And there are plenty of excuses that might be valid. But this isn't a one-off scenario, IMO - the league seems to catch up to DJ and then he struggles without the cheat codes.
Great post GD.
a)great summary
b) the Haskins flopped/killed line - I spit out my coffee
c) I'm a tired fan (67 y/o been watching since I was 5 sitting in front of the old b/w tv set with my dad)
time to move on from Jones. Period.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
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I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
Agreed. And perhaps the most important reason why they have to get a top tier quarterback from the 2024 draft....
But the league is a passing league, and he is simply not smart enough to run a complex offense, read defenses, and not get baited into game changing plays by rookies. I am not saying he is not a smart guy, he undoubtedly is. But is football IQ and processing time are not even NFL average. The game is moving as quickly for him now as it did his rookie year.
I would love for the Giants to be opening up the playbook for the next QB to read a defense and then attack it, not be limited to one-read throws and bootleg runs.
Question: Does this explain why the Giants gave Jones an extension? If one assumes this is a Mara defense, then it follows that Mara had definite input into the decision to enter into a negotiation with Jones. Furthermore, as Eric points out, it seems clear (hindsight is always 20/20) that FT’ing Jones would have been better than Barkley. How many BBI’rs wanted Barkley to be a unrestricted free agent?
“GoTerps Critique”
Question: Does Jones elevate the team in any way shape or form that Eli Manning, Phil Simms or Jeff Hostetler did? As pointed out in the article, it does not matter all the changes in management and coaching staff. Isn’t 5 years of history enough? Frankly, I don’t care if he has great games against poor teams. Look at his record against team that make the playoffs. And let’s be candid and open about the injury situation. Eric is. This QB gets injured often and the injuries are not insignificant. Long term prognosis? Fans ought to be concerned that as Eric pointed out NFL defenses have adjusted quite well to Jones running tactics. For me, he appears to be asking for it if he continues to run relatively frequently as a second option.
Don’t give me this “it’s only a 2-year deal” crap.
Question: Why would Schoen and Daboll not exercise the fifth year extension just as insurance; yet go ahead and provide a four year contract extension? This gets back to the first question. Regardless of what actually happened in 2022, it appears to this fan that Schoen and Daboll did a 180-degree about face in the off season from where they were during the season. I say 180-degree because they could have franchised him. They chose not to.
"You guys all saw last season. The guy won 10 games. He won a road playoff game for the Giants."
Questions: Did the Bucs stick with Trent Dilfer after they won the Super Bowl? How are the Titan’s doing with Tannerhill? Is Cousins going to be re-signed with the Vikings? Why isn’t Winston the starter with the Saints? Sticking with Jones stinks and is like betting to an inside straight after the bettor lost money (sunk cost) thinking his luck is bound to change. That is bad behavioral economics.
"If ownership did not have any deciding role in retaining Daniel Jones…"
Question: How could any “owner” of any business not have a deciding role in a key, strategic decision to retain Jones? Mara and Tisch are the owners for Christ sake. They have that right. Do the fans believe that they had no input or involvement in the decision to bet $160 million on a questionable QB? Really? If they did then the fans need to recognize that this is business as usual. The owners will not, nor should they not be involved in such important decisions. The issue is how will their behavior change to avoid the land mines that they keep stepping on with the collateral damage of firing GMs and coaches. Unfortunately, we have no Pete Rozelle-like direct involvement to save this franchise from its owners. I fear we are in for dark times as Giant fans.
You have 2024 to have an answer at QB. A rookie buys them that. Daniel Jones coming off a typical Daniel Jones year does not.
People keep trashing Pugh, but the pass blocking on the left side his miles better with Thomas and Pugh on the side, Jones hardly played with either, and Bredeson was his starting center for a few games.
Pretty obvious they should be hard at drafted a QB early, and Jones will have next year and then move on.
Yes, drafting him at #6 was a mistake. But the biggest sin was doubling, tripling, and quadrupling down on a subpar talent all these years.
Let's not do this again. Underperforming QBs need competition, regardless what the excuses are.
But the game is too fast to not be able to process quickly. And the fact that a rookie Center is tasked with setting protections, when it should be the 5th year QB's job is indicative of this
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I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
I haven't been able to find anything concrete on this, but I remember reading or hearing that on a podcast when the contract came out. There is also an Athletic article that mentions escalators:
"Jones also can earn an additional $35 million in incentives and escalators throughout the deal. His personal incentives are tied to passing yards, passing touchdowns, total offensive yards and total touchdowns, according to a league source.
Jones can earn up to $1 million for finishing in the top 15 among quarterbacks in those four categories, according to Pro Football Talk. He can earn another $1.5 million for finishing in the top 10 among quarterbacks in those four categories and another $1.5 million for finishing in the top five among quarterbacks in those four categories."
Duggan Article - ( New Window )
We also can't afford to go into those games with those teams stacking 8 guys in the box and daring the QB to beat them with his arm when that QB has no chance in hell at doing that.
Forget about whether or not there are some who feel he could have been the guy vs. others who feel he's never been nor will be.
The injury history makes all of it moot now. Especially when considering his legs are the most dynamic part of his game. Jones can't be exposed to these hits at the NFL level any longer.
But the game is too fast to not be able to process quickly. And the fact that a rookie Center is tasked with setting protections, when it should be the 5th year QB's job is indicative of this
Watching Daniel Jones trying to play QB is so awkward. He looks anything but natural out there.
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Ending up in a draft position where the only way to get the QB we want is to trade future #1 picks. This team is so far behind the Eagles and Cowboys that we can't afford future drafts without picking in the first round.
We also can't afford to go into those games with those teams stacking 8 guys in the box and daring the QB to beat them with his arm when that QB has no chance in hell at doing that.
Agreed. To be clear, I am firmly in the "move on from Jones" camp. My comment is more related to the question about rooting for losses or rooting for wins the rest of the season. People here note that sometimes QBs drafted outside the top 10 end up being better than those in the top 10, and that's true. But it's also true that if Schoen decides he likes one of the Big 2 or 3, he may be forced to give up future #1s to get him. So it's very possible that the cost of meaningless wins against Washington and NE is a future top 5 pick
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I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
Linked article has all the details on incentives. Initial theoretical maximum total of $35M, half of which dependent on playoff appearance. The theoretical $17.5M achievable by personal performance alone has already been reduced by fact Jones can't hit any incentives this year. Also, the highest level of incentives aren't easy to reach.
Bottom line, I would say, is that the incentives are less significant than the $23M injury guarantee. And, whatever we in the peanut gallery may think the Giants should do, I don't get any sense that the Giants will allow either factor to influence what they do with Jones.
I do agree with Blue the Dog's point that the current $47M cap hit for Jones for 2024 could very well be restructured in the effort to compete in 2024, with the consequence of increasing the current $22M dead cap figure for 2025 that has gotten so much focus.
si.com - ( New Window )
Whether he "leaned" on Schoen (regarding Jones) or not, will not be relevant if they go with Jones next year and he bombs.
Seats will be empty, people will be calling for the heads of the GM and HC and John will just sit upstairs and say "it wasn't me!"
That's been the business model for sometime now. BW and Terps have been on the money on that point!
The fallback has been a shit supporting cast - but we've seen backup QBs doing more with that same shit cast
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
I really think they wanted Barkley done so they could tag Jones, if necessary.
Surgery goes well.
Daniel does everything possible known to man to be cleared for contact by Late August.
He will be throwing soon.
He is in the facility every day.
He is organizing practices with teammates and they ALL show up.
Giants draft a QB in the first round.
Jones looks great by August. Arm looks stronger, all that shit. Teammates and coaches will be praising his work and marveling at his recovery.
He will start.
Just like they did to Eli when they drafted Jones, they will tell Jones he has to win.
If the OL isn't in shambles, I am going suggest he does win.
I think Jones eventually injures himself in 2024 and it is done. The rookie starts and we never go back.
Listen, this is not Madden.
They are not cutting Jones. Those that want that expose themselves as trolls.
If Jones is healthy by the start of the season ,even if Maye, Williams or Daniels is on the roster, it will not mean Mara is pulling the strings, that is the way of the NFL.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
IMO - that was the ownership's push.
The opt out was the stipulation Schoen/Daboll pushed for.
In my eyes - I think it's Chris Mara vs. team Schoen/Daboll for control of the roster with key players.
It is totally a guess.
This observation continently ignores the addition of Thomas Pugh and Schmitz in to Online with a healthy Saquon. It also ignores the caliber of competition
You want to move on from Jones, fine, find a better argument
Yes, they could have franchised him instead giving him 2 years, but that tag would have limited them with other moves.
They were in a tough spot, made a choice, which was at least justifiable in the moment, and it didn't work out. That shit happens.
The real test is this offseason. Do they quadruple down or do they pivot?
We'll see
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
It seems Schoen and Daboll felt that Jones had mastered the beginners exam and now they were ready to go full throttle with him with more weapons in place and he didn’t answer the bell. Obviously they had a brutal schedule and some injuries but at the end of the day Jones wasn’t good enough AND hurt his neck again in the process.
It backfired. It happens. But I’m not ready to say that they made a some colossal mistake. They were somewhat measured even in the contract they finally gave him. They must pivot now. I keep making the comparison to Cohen with the Scherzer and Verlander deals. He went for it and then realized the plan had bombed and moved off quickly. NYG must do the same here.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
You literally just said if you miss on a high QB draft pick, it will really set the franchise back. How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
Four years so far.
I would argue that it didn't need to be that long. The Giants had a shot at Tua and Herbert a year later. Obviously they passed, but the opportunity to pivot was there. And they had a shot at Fields a year after that. Again, they passed (and it may well have been justified) but they had the opportunity. And they were in position to take a QB in 2022 if they were so inclined, but none were worth the investment.
Which is actually, IMO, the bigger risk with getting your QB choice wrong (including deciding not to make a choice): you don't know when the opportunity to pursue a new QB will align with the availability of a QB that you like.
The setback isn't getting your QB wrong. The setback is holding out hope that you didn't get it wrong, and skipping over the next few chances while you wait for need and opportunity to intersect again.
One thing I'll add about the reference to me specifically - I didn't dislike Jones from the start. I was taken with his Duke pro day (particularly in comparison to Haskins, who was popular here), and I thought the team needed to move on from Eli. Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
Anyway I liked Jones initially and wanted him to start from opening day in 2019. My reservations with him developed as I watched him play that season. I always had an open mind on Daniel Jones - he made up my mind with his play, and nothing more.
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The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
Mara loves the kid, for reasons I’ll never understand. He definitely weighed in. Hell, he did it publicly multiple times with the media where he was fawning all over him.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I get what you're saying. But I bet you if Barkley had agreed to a very favorable contract before FA opened, DJ would have been tagged instead. Schoen was guided by the position rather than the player (IMO), and may have ceded a bit more ground on DJ than he would have liked because he fundamentally felt more comfortable with a slight overcommitment at the QB position instead of the RB position.
People here can dismiss the Minnesota playoff game all they want, but very few teams are moving off a guy with that type of road playoff game fresh in their minds. Especially not when the full season was more or less a test that the player in question passed if grading overall.
And as far as Jones's status heading into last offseason, in places other then BBI, NY sports talk radio, and general football discussions, it was pretty widely accepted what the Giants should do. There were many teams in the market for a QB and the feeling was Jones would have gotten picked up somewhere. That's just the truth.
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
Also, the bad OL has been here for those 5 years, the bad receivers have been here for those 5 years, multiple coaching changes have been here for those 5 years. Is this a clue to what Mara meant when he said, "we did enough to ruin this kid." I know, in the hate DJ camp, these are excuses but to any reasonable person these are facts. Now, the hate group will come out with their facts, and cite some of DJs stats, but a lot of those negatives are due to what I stated above. Hey, has he been great no but he has performed under difficult circumstances. IMO, any other QB, even those considered elite, could not have fared better in the same situation.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I'm not as much a believer in Jones as you Ryan but this is a solid post and I think you're 100% right.
This is completely accurate in my view.
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as I said in the article, if it was a Schoen and Daboll decision alone, Mara and Tisch should be pretty pissed.
People here can dismiss the Minnesota playoff game all they want, but very few teams are moving off a guy with that type of road playoff game fresh in their minds. Especially not when the full season was more or less a test that the player in question passed if grading overall.
And as far as Jones's status heading into last offseason, in places other then BBI, NY sports talk radio, and general football discussions, it was pretty widely accepted what the Giants should do. There were many teams in the market for a QB and the feeling was Jones would have gotten picked up somewhere. That's just the truth.
No one is dismissing the Minn playoff game. If anything, it is overblown by a wide margin.
The game that seemingly gets dismissed too often (including the Giants) was the next one.
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Not an uptick in production, when you're down to your 3rd QB.
This observation continently ignores the addition of Thomas Pugh and Schmitz in to Online with a healthy Saquon. It also ignores the caliber of competition
You want to move on from Jones, fine, find a better argument
Pugh has been a net negative in pass pro, and Jones had Waller while DeVito has not. Thomas is playing with a sprained MCL and isn't quite up to his all-pro level. Barkley also seems to be a bit banged up as well (which is the nature of playing RB in the NFL - you're going to be banged up in the second half of the season most years).
You can do this across the board. For the most part, it's the same team and same scheme. Arguing on the fringes when you're comparing a 5th year $40M QB to an UDFA rookie is kind of an indictment of the former no matter how you slice it, IMO.
It's clear to some degree Schoen and Daboll respected the work Jones put in, but don't trust the body of work or consistency enough to see "franchise guy", thus they overpaid on front end of deal. There weren't any immediate pivots off Jones or upgrade alternatives. Jimmy G? Thats the ghost of Daniel Jones right there.
Most folks in NFL were stunned Jones got about 40-41m est, and felt the 28-32m range was more than fair per season, because in reality it is a 2 year guarantee only. I strongly suspect Jones team were trying to hardball a 3rd year in with guarantees.
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whether a QB entering his sixth year is the answer. Just think about that - going into his sixth season...
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
Also, the bad OL has been here for those 5 years, the bad receivers have been here for those 5 years, multiple coaching changes have been here for those 5 years. Is this a clue to what Mara meant when he said, "we did enough to ruin this kid." I know, in the hate DJ camp, these are excuses but to any reasonable person these are facts. Now, the hate group will come out with their facts, and cite some of DJs stats, but a lot of those negatives are due to what I stated above. Hey, has he been great no but he has performed under difficult circumstances. IMO, any other QB, even those considered elite, could not have fared better in the same situation.
It's cute that you think you're one of the "reasonable person[s]."
Surgery goes well.
Daniel does everything possible known to man to be cleared for contact by Late August.
He will be throwing soon.
He is in the facility every day.
He is organizing practices with teammates and they ALL show up.
Giants draft a QB in the first round.
Jones looks great by August. Arm looks stronger, all that shit. Teammates and coaches will be praising his work and marveling at his recovery.
He will start.
Just like they did to Eli when they drafted Jones, they will tell Jones he has to win.
If the OL isn't in shambles, I am going suggest he does win.
I think Jones eventually injures himself in 2024 and it is done. The rookie starts and we never go back.
Listen, this is not Madden.
They are not cutting Jones. Those that want that expose themselves as trolls.
If Jones is healthy by the start of the season ,even if Maye, Williams or Daniels is on the roster, it will not mean Mara is pulling the strings, that is the way of the NFL.
It's clear to some degree Schoen and Daboll respected the work Jones put in, but don't trust the body of work or consistency enough to see "franchise guy", thus they overpaid on front end of deal. There weren't any immediate pivots off Jones or upgrade alternatives. Jimmy G? Thats the ghost of Daniel Jones right there.
Most folks in NFL were stunned Jones got about 40-41m est, and felt the 28-32m range was more than fair per season, because in reality it is a 2 year guarantee only. I strongly suspect Jones team were trying to hardball a 3rd year in with guarantees.
What are you talking about? That deal was graded somewhere around a B+/A for the Giants here on BBI.
One thing I'll add about the reference to me specifically - I didn't dislike Jones from the start. I was taken with his Duke pro day (particularly in comparison to Haskins, who was popular here), and I thought the team needed to move on from Eli. Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
Anyway I liked Jones initially and wanted him to start from opening day in 2019. My reservations with him developed as I watched him play that season. I always had an open mind on Daniel Jones - he made up my mind with his play, and nothing more.
To be fully transparent here... those arguments were not all yours, I just used you as what I thought would be a funny counterweight to the "John Mara defense" since you've been the most vocal. So I grouped all of the key negative arguments under your name. Don't sue me for defamation! ;)
Surgery goes well.
Daniel does everything possible known to man to be cleared for contact by Late August.
He will be throwing soon.
He is in the facility every day.
He is organizing practices with teammates and they ALL show up.
Giants draft a QB in the first round.
Jones looks great by August. Arm looks stronger, all that shit. Teammates and coaches will be praising his work and marveling at his recovery.
He will start.
Just like they did to Eli when they drafted Jones, they will tell Jones he has to win.
If the OL isn't in shambles, I am going suggest he does win.
I think Jones eventually injures himself in 2024 and it is done. The rookie starts and we never go back.
Listen, this is not Madden.
They are not cutting Jones. Those that want that expose themselves as trolls.
If Jones is healthy by the start of the season ,even if Maye, Williams or Daniels is on the roster, it will not mean Mara is pulling the strings, that is the way of the NFL.
The part I bolded above is an enormous risk for the Giants. DJ has significant injury guarantees for 2025 and leaving the transition in the hands of fate/health could prove VERY costly for the Giants' 2025 cap outlook.
A lot of fans talk about the disadvantages that DJ has had to face in his time here with the Giants. Let's see how many will be willing to recognize the disadvantage the new QB will have to face when he has a roster that has a significant dead money gap to overcome relative to his opponents' rosters.
The draft is going to be crazy and when we win at least 1-2 more games this year and pick 10th it will either cost a lot to move up or we may reach at 10 and everyone freaks out.
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
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They arrived at a mostly 2 year contract because the Giants were picking 25th in the draft, had just made the playoffs, and Jones was reason 1A why they did.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I'm not as much a believer in Jones as you Ryan but this is a solid post and I think you're 100% right.
This is completely accurate in my view.
My neice called me the other day and was like this guy is our future. I can understand it... We just want some hope and right now at the QB position we don't really have much.
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I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
Mac Jones is not a dual threat. Week 9 isn't the playoffs. I know you don't want to concede the point.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I smarter GM applied the Franchise Tag because Jones's 2022 performance was good, not great. One good performance should not have merited such a large reward.
So, make him do it again because we were willing to do it once before when we declined the 5th year option.
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Well written Eric. It's a good summary of where we've been and where we are. I hope the team reads it. They (and I mean ownership when I say this) need to take a long look at themselves and how they run the team.
One thing I'll add about the reference to me specifically - I didn't dislike Jones from the start. I was taken with his Duke pro day (particularly in comparison to Haskins, who was popular here), and I thought the team needed to move on from Eli. Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
Anyway I liked Jones initially and wanted him to start from opening day in 2019. My reservations with him developed as I watched him play that season. I always had an open mind on Daniel Jones - he made up my mind with his play, and nothing more.
To be fully transparent here... those arguments were not all yours, I just used you as what I thought would be a funny counterweight to the "John Mara defense" since you've been the most vocal. So I grouped all of the key negative arguments under your name. Don't sue me for defamation! ;)
Ha no worries. Thanks for being a conduit to the team.
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In comment 16308820 Sean said:
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The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
Mara loves the kid, for reasons I’ll never understand. He definitely weighed in. Hell, he did it publicly multiple times with the media where he was fawning all over him.
He loves him b/c he played a part in picking him...is my guess.
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I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
I don't think it whitewashed it. This is just my opinion but coming off that season with what we played with, we should have been better this year. From the standpoint of a really good rookie center improvement, Consistent OGs, you are hoping Neal made improvements, a big-time weapon in Waller, added speed WRs like Paris Campbell/Hyatt, really good training camps, etc You kind of expect that we would progress second year in the system with all those hopes for improvement. Sadly none of that panned out with exception of the center probably. So sad that this is where we are.
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In comment 16308837 Chris684 said:
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I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
Mac Jones is not a dual threat. Week 9 isn't the playoffs. I know you don't want to concede the point.
Daniel Jones isn't a dual threat either. All he does well is run.
Daniel Jones isn't a dual threat either. All he does well is run.
And Eagles showed the entire NFL last year how to shut down his running. So he's not even that great at running anymore since he is just a straight line speed guy (Forest Gump) and not Lamar Jackson
Daniel Jones isn't a dual threat either. All he does well is run.
That was actually pretty funny. Well played...
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In comment 16308837 Chris684 said:
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I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
Mac Jones is not a dual threat. Week 9 isn't the playoffs. I know you don't want to concede the point.
I don't want to conceded that week 9 isn't the playoffs? Ummm, yes I know it is not the playoffs. I concede that excellent argument to you, sir.
Now can you concede the point that even bad QBs put up very good numbers against the 32nd ranked pass defense in the NFL in 2022?
Or does the fact that it was a playoff game suddenly make their defense more formidable?
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whether a QB entering his sixth year is the answer. Just think about that - going into his sixth season...
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
Also, the bad OL has been here for those 5 years, the bad receivers have been here for those 5 years, multiple coaching changes have been here for those 5 years. Is this a clue to what Mara meant when he said, "we did enough to ruin this kid." I know, in the hate DJ camp, these are excuses but to any reasonable person these are facts. Now, the hate group will come out with their facts, and cite some of DJs stats, but a lot of those negatives are due to what I stated above. Hey, has he been great no but he has performed under difficult circumstances. IMO, any other QB, even those considered elite, could not have fared better in the same situation.
Here's the line of demarcation on Jones: you believe he's been part of the problem or a victim of it.
If polled I'm sure nearly 100% of BBI would agree the entire team has been bad since 2019. The "hate group" calls them excuses because they're used to excuse (hah see how that works?) his poor performance instead of placing an iota of blame on DJ himself.
It was practically at the point where if he threw an interception it would be blamed on the relative humidity being too high in the stadium, or the wind was blowing out of the east instead of the north.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
That's a good point and I think an important one. The year the team is stuck with Jones' highest guaranteed money, don't make that the same year to start a 1st round QB's contract.
Another way to put it would be, should the team be deciding on the next QB's fifth year option after the guy has played through four season (or most of) or three or less seasons.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Any reasonable person HAS to see it that way. If Schoen doesn't, then he's not the right guy for the job and will probably be updating his resume by April of 2025.
Any reasonable person HAS to see it that way. If Schoen doesn't, then he's not the right guy for the job and will probably be updating his resume by April of 2025.
I think most people are saying that... You don't need to yell it out.
It's clear to some degree Schoen and Daboll respected the work Jones put in, but don't trust the body of work or consistency enough to see "franchise guy", thus they overpaid on front end of deal. There weren't any immediate pivots off Jones or upgrade alternatives. Jimmy G? Thats the ghost of Daniel Jones right there.
Most folks in NFL were stunned Jones got about 40-41m est, and felt the 28-32m range was more than fair per season, because in reality it is a 2 year guarantee only. I strongly suspect Jones team were trying to hardball a 3rd year in with guarantees.
This to me is one of the more interesting aspects of what happened. Schoen clearly did have a walk away number, and did not want to make the longer term commitment. If the deal had been done around the 30-35m number everyone sort of imagined before the end of the season/playoffs, I dont think even now it would be looked at as so crazy. That's what a starter costs. But it's hard not wonder what the internal deliberations were. Was this Schoen and Daboll convinced Jones was the guy? Was this Mara making clear they should go the extra mile? That question of the internal evaluation of Jones still seems like the real mystery.
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In comment 16308588 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16308413 joe48 said:
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It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss
How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
No one has said it's the QB only. Cease. And, you're free to skip these threads.
Many continue with the out of context posts here everyday. The OL play has been terrible and that is why we were or are ranked last in the league for run and pass protection. Come on stop with cease.
OL stinks, so does Jones, "weapons" under-performing and weak, etc.
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the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Would you trade Daniel Jones for Mac Jones? Mac had a better game against MIN last year and looked good against PHI week 1 this year.
But it is possible to tell the difference between a sack resulting from a guard whiffing on a block from a sack because the QB failed to identify a blitz or get the ball out on time. You can tell the difference between a pass on the money that was dropped by a WR and one that landed 3 yards in front of him. You can still evaluate a QB by watching the games.
Jones had a great game against Minnesota largely because he did not get pressured because their defense sucked. It is the same reason Mac Jones lit them up. Anyone QB in the NFL can produce when he has time and open receivers. But that is an unusual circumstance in the NFL which is what many of us are saying.
The Minnesota game is an outlier in his career. He gets full kudos for playing well in that game, but if you want to call it a historic performance (as many here do) you have to follow that with the fact that it was against an historically poor defense.
tl:dr - The performance we saw from Jones in Minnesota simply isn't regularly repeatable for him.
They could draft the wrong QB again, there's no protection against it. But, they need to admit the QB mistake and move off it, otherwise this franchise is stuck in the mud. This decision precedes any other roster decision, no matter all the other holes.
Hey JC, I don't disagree at all. I would have to think they are drafting a QB. But as you said - May be no better time - who can say? We don't even know where we are picking yet, or who will be available at our slot. If they have conviction that whichever QB is available when we pick, they will take him. If they are in love with one of the top 3 guys I am guessing we will see a trade up. But it's entirely possible none of those scenarios come to fruition in this draft as well. It is what it is, I just hope to GOD they keep drafting better and finally start fielding a better overall team. Or start coaching guys up. This team is just not good, overall, especially on the offensive side of the ball.
There is no way Daboll would let it all ride on Jones coming back and playing well. There needs to be something else.
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the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Overcoming a bad OL is really difficult for any QB, I think that's fair. I also think it's almost impossible for a mediocre or worse QB to overcome just about any adverse circumstances. So a mediocre QB will make a bad OL look historically bad. A mediocre QB will make a journeyman WR corps look like they've never played football before. A mediocre QB will make accomplished coaches look like they're lost at sea.
And what makes it even more difficult to assess is when the QB's deficiencies aren't really physical. It's easy to see when a QB is a statue in the pocket and can't escape pressure. It's easy to see when a QB has a weak arm and can't make all the throws. Those sorts of flaws jump off the screen.
But as I mentioned yesterday, when the QB's fatal flaw isn't that he does anything wrong, but that it just takes him 0.3 seconds longer to do it, that's not so obvious. But that 0.3 seconds makes the OL look worse because the pressure gets there in that fraction of a second. It makes the receivers look bad because the defenders who get beaten on the break can recover in that fraction of a second.
Couple that with a reluctance to throw with anticipation and replace it with a preference for safer throws underneath, and now you're not only asking your QB to play faster than he's capable of, you're asking him to do it more often than his counterparts because he lacks the benefit of the chunk plays that lead to quicker scoring drives. So now your QB isn't doing anything obviously wrong, but somehow you're ending up with field goals instead of touchdowns.
Indecisiveness and slow processing might be the worst fatal flaw that a QB can possess because that QB won't obviously be at fault, but it is his fault. And that QB will look great in practice and in training camp because those flaws aren't exposed in those circumstances. And that QB will put up great numbers against horrible defenses because what makes them horrible is that they also take too long to react. Those horrible defenses are horrible because the extra 0.3 seconds don't result in pressure for them, and because their DBs don't recover in those 0.3 seconds.
DJ is, physically, everything you might ask for in a QB. And his mental deficiencies aren't exposed against bad defenses, because those deficiencies are on such a thin margin to begin with. But the upside is capped. And a championship is always going to be just out of reach when your QB is just a tick too slow and only has one reaction (run) to off-script scenarios.
OL stinks, so does Jones, "weapons" under-performing and weak, etc.
Who ever said it's all on the QB? But it's more than fair to observe that functional QB play helps the OL. Many who still back Jones won't acknowledge this. Instead they say *improved* line play for Taylor/DeVito is explained by Pugh and others, and nothing to do with QB performance. At every turn we get excuses for Jones. Why is Jones so unlucky all the time? The OL is always uniquely bad for him, only. If only he had Justin Pugh....
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In comment 16308924 Mike from Ohio said:
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the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Would you trade Daniel Jones for Mac Jones? Mac had a better game against MIN last year and looked good against PHI week 1 this year.
If contracts were equal then no I wouldn't. I think DJ is the better player by a good amount, but if I could trade away DJ's contract for Mac Jones I absolutely would.
Yes, they could have franchised him instead giving him 2 years, but that tag would have limited them with other moves.
They were in a tough spot, made a choice, which was at least justifiable in the moment, and it didn't work out. That shit happens.
The real test is this offseason. Do they quadruple down or do they pivot?
We'll see
Well played, Sir!
I agree, good post.
Look, I know I am biased more towards liking him better than you guys do, but I do 100% think DJ was in an impossible situation when AT went down and they just decided to stick Ezeudu in there at LT. Look at what happened to Mahomes in the Super Bowl when saddled with a makeshift offensive line? That line was terrible, and it made Mahomes look human. It matters, it matters a LOT. And that's the kind of offensive line play I witnessed at the beginning of this year. Ezeudu misses a block that essentially eliminates Andrew Thomas AND Gano for us. That's horrible enough, but then they start him at LT? When they kept Peart as the swing? The OL was disastrous, literally the 1st few games of the year. Then Saquon goes out as well. It's not some mystery to me that DJ went backwards after that.
But I get it. I honestly will be shocked to hell if we don't draft a QB in this draft. I don't see how they can't, even if Devito plays lights out, and they keep Taylor.
Do you want to apply to apply your quote below to the last futile seasons of Eli Manning… that he was just a mediocrity that made a bad OL look historically bad?
“So a mediocre QB will make a bad OL look historically bad. A mediocre QB will make a journeyman WR corps look like they've never played football before. A mediocre QB will make accomplished coaches look like they're lost at sea.”
If you give up the draft capital to draft Maye or Williams, you forgo fixing the OL again -- at least through the draft. Most available FA OLs are not starter-quality.
Then, if you fail to fix the OL, AGAIN, how do you put a rookie QB back there to take the kind of beating DJ's gotten? You'll ruin him FAST.
Jones is back next year because of the contract, regardless. IMO, he should start ahead of any rookie QB until the OL can protect better. Pay Jones to take the lumps.
QBs drafted later than round one have an even lower chances of becoming successful starters than the 1st rounders. Wasting a 2nd rounder on another Lauletta or Webb seems foolhardy with so many other holes to fix.
If they can't get one of the top QBs, I'd forgo drafting a QB this year, and address the other problems.
Thus, these are the possibilities I see:
If they go ALL IN to get Maye or Williams, they better break the bank on the best OLs they can get in FA (assuming good ones even make it to market). Then start Jones, regardless.
If they don't trade up for Maye or Williams, they should NOT, (IMO), pick a low first round/high second round QB. Get a vet backup (Taylor should go. He's more brittle than Jones). They could do this, but it seems like folly to me.
TRADE DOWN for more picks if possible, and fix as much as they can in the draft. (They won't, but I'd cluster draft OLs and pass rushers till they get it right).
Let Jones start next year, regardless -- they're paying him to start. Get his replacement when they can -- and when a replacement has a better chance to succeed -- with better protection and weapons.
The Giants don't need a new bridge guy. If you think Jones isn't the long term answer, Jones IS the bridge guy.
He's not nor is the organization giving up on Neal yet it appears. He was only drafted in 2022 7th overall. He's the right tackle. The left tackle was signed to a lucrative deal a few months ago. The center was just drafted in the 2nd round.
I'd expect swing tackle to be addressed, an interior guard signed and some depth later in the draft.
When people talk about extremes to fixing the OL, it's about development of what they have. As Sy has said, it's improving.
1.) pick one at the top of the draft
2.) pick one in the middle of the draft
3.) pick one late in the draft
4.) trade for one
5.) sign one as a FA
Remember - you're betting and you're only betting on one.
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In comment 16308359 Blueworm said:
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Not an uptick in production, when you're down to your 3rd QB.
This observation continently ignores the addition of Thomas Pugh and Schmitz in to Online with a healthy Saquon. It also ignores the caliber of competition
You want to move on from Jones, fine, find a better argument
Pugh has been a net negative in pass pro, and Jones had Waller while DeVito has not. Thomas is playing with a sprained MCL and isn't quite up to his all-pro level. Barkley also seems to be a bit banged up as well (which is the nature of playing RB in the NFL - you're going to be banged up in the second half of the season most years).
You can do this across the board. For the most part, it's the same team and same scheme. Arguing on the fringes when you're comparing a 5th year $40M QB to an UDFA rookie is kind of an indictment of the former no matter how you slice it, IMO.
The general consensus by the football people I ve heard speak on the topic is the Giants O line is better, than it was earlier in the year
You say that s not the case, ok, I think you re wrong.
I don’t think the Giants would have come anywhere near the success they had last season if DeVito were playing in place of Jones. If you want to contend there is minimal difference in the two, then I suppose you would disagree with that take as well.
Schoen determined that Jones’ play last season warranted a contract, I agree
For this season it has turned out to be a bad decision, we ll see what next season brings
Look, I know I am biased more towards liking him better than you guys do, but I do 100% think DJ was in an impossible situation when AT went down and they just decided to stick Ezeudu in there at LT. Look at what happened to Mahomes in the Super Bowl when saddled with a makeshift offensive line? That line was terrible, and it made Mahomes look human.
I think people need to rewatch that Super Bowl to see some of the superhuman plays Mahomes made to keep that game remotely competitive while KC's defense was getting run off the goddamn field in the 2nd quarter.
Yes, Mahomes didn't have a good game. Yes the OL situation was bad. If someone else was playing QB that day the Chiefs wouldn't have gained a yard. The fact that great QBs occasionally have bad games is not evidence that Daniel Jones (who occasionally has great games) is anywhere near that class.
That way we are entering 2024 with legit talent on the OL and not just Thomas and a bunch of possibilities.
He's not nor is the organization giving up on Neal yet it appears. He was only drafted in 2022 7th overall. He's the right tackle. The left tackle was signed to a lucrative deal a few months ago. The center was just drafted in the 2nd round.
I'd expect swing tackle to be addressed, an interior guard signed and some depth later in the draft.
When people talk about extremes to fixing the OL, it's about development of what they have. As Sy has said, it's improving.
You could be right about the actions the Giants take this off-season in regard to the OL.
As for Sy’s review, I found it highly informative. The one quibble I had is that Justin Pugh should have gotten a Dud award instead of Saquon Barkley.
I am growing a little worried about Sy’s running commentary on JMS having difficulty when he has to travel any distance. I don’t know what to make of that and I’m not sure if he can improve that aspect of his game.
IMO, the OL is only set at LT and C and that everything else is up in the air. I like the way Evan Neal run blocks and I believe he can pass block in a more confined area… that is why I am gung-ho at moving him inside. I guess the Giants can keep throwing him out there at RT and continue to cross their fingers. Assuming he isn’t moved inside, I believe the Giants need two brand new guards, with all the other current guards fighting for back-up rolls.
Chiefs 16 times 116 yards.
Eagles 8 times for 30 yards
Giants RB production against SF, Miami and Seattle: 9/22, 18/39, 22/46. One of the worst three game stretches you will see and probably hard to find.
Those games were played w/o both SB and AT. Take a look with just SB back in after.
A few are really undervaluing how critical SB is to this offense. Then they got AT back a couple games later.
It does not change the place of where the Giants are w/ Jones but.....
The issue right now is the draft. What to do? If the Giants can't (or won't) pay the costs to get up to the top three selections, then I think there are only two other alternatives:
1) Hope that a QB drops in the draft into their range. That DOES happen (Lamar Jackson, for example). Teams do tend to out think themselves.
2) Save your top choices for rebulding the lines, and try to get a reclamation project. I think there are three QB's that are having horrible years, but could potentially come back to be quality NFL QB's under Daboll.
First would be Justin Fields. If Chicago drafts a QB, the Bears would listen to offers. I think he's a better version of Jones, and would thrive in NY.
Second, Mac Jones. No, I'm not kidding. This kid had all the qualities coming out of college, but the Pats did him no favors with their OC's (Judge???). Yes, he looks horrible now, but that's when you want to get him, when his value is low. I think he would be perfect for sitting behind Jones next year, while Daboll works on him.
Third, (hold your nose!) Zack Wilson. The Jets destroyed this guy, there's no way they can bring him back next year. But he has an arm, and he was considered a high draft choice coming out. Wilson has had HORRENDOUS OC's (Hackett sucks beyond belief, he's on there as a Rodgers buddy)Again, another QB Daboll could work magic on!
We've seen in Denver what good Offensive coach (Sean Payton) can do with a QB that was considered washed (Russell Wilson).
I'm not saying that these are the preferred ways to go, but I just want to point out there are other ways to go if the Giants don't have the ammunition to go up in the draft.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
It would have required ownership to sign off on it.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
And the reason they’ve never been better than 16th is because Saquon Barkley sucks? Or, because the entire team around Saquon Barkley has sucked for the past 6 seasons? Or, do you have some thing else in mind?
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
After a decade of losing the Giants not only make the playoffs but win a play off game.
You suggesting they should have allowed the two players most responsible for that success to walk is an unreasonable take.
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I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
It seems playoff wins by the giants vs Minnesota are fools gold. There was the nfc championship that the ravens coach said they were all farts and giggles about.
You say that s not the case, ok, I think you re wrong.
I'm not saying the OL isn't playing better. Certainly having even a damaged Thomas is better than his replacements were. But Pugh isn't really part of the improvement, in terms of pass protection. And I didn't refute you on Schmitz, although he's been up and down (as most rookies are).
I just don't think the OL is the entire story. If it were, then no one should ever be in favor of any QB contracts beyond a rookie deal, because they're all just passengers on the OL train.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
No one wanted Barkley out of the halls of 1925 Giants Way more than me. But when you see these public quotes by Mara, you can certainly understand why Team Barkley was so irritated by the contract talk...
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The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
And the reason they’ve never been better than 16th is because Saquon Barkley sucks? Or, because the entire team around Saquon Barkley has sucked for the past 6 seasons? Or, do you have some thing else in mind?
Where is the line drawn?
How do we decide who the guys are that are causing the suck and who the guys are that are victimized by it?
Seems like it's mostly driven by the fan favorites being victimized while the rest of the guys are the fault-bearers.
He's not nor is the organization giving up on Neal yet it appears. He was only drafted in 2022 7th overall. He's the right tackle. The left tackle was signed to a lucrative deal a few months ago. The center was just drafted in the 2nd round.
I'd expect swing tackle to be addressed, an interior guard signed and some depth later in the draft.
When people talk about extremes to fixing the OL, it's about development of what they have. As Sy has said, it's improving.
Improving from ranking last in the league is that some kind of joke. Get some new talent. Our competition in the NFC East is deep in the trenches. We tried to juggle the guys over the summer and it failed.
I’m more of a pro Jones than anti Jones guy, but your main point is spot on. Injury history alone, the Giants can’t rely on Jones and need to use one of their first three picks on a QB.
In the THE NEVER-ENDING DEBATE paragraph (should be five seasons):
Three of his fives season have just been awful.
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In comment 16309084 Go Terps said:
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The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
And the reason they’ve never been better than 16th is because Saquon Barkley sucks? Or, because the entire team around Saquon Barkley has sucked for the past 6 seasons? Or, do you have some thing else in mind?
Where is the line drawn?
How do we decide who the guys are that are causing the suck and who the guys are that are victimized by it?
Seems like it's mostly driven by the fan favorites being victimized while the rest of the guys are the fault-bearers.
I honestly think there is plenty of blame to go around. We have holes in obvious places, and very little depth as it is... but Coaching should not get a pass, especially for the way preseason was handled. This team was not nearly ready for primetime this year. So many head-scratching roster decisions. If they were going to build off of last year, fine... but then do it... lol. Keep some continuity with the OL. Feliciano was no great shakes but he was better guard/center than Ben Bredeson. Why keep Lemieux and Peart and jettison those two? Made no sense. And anyway regardless, make your decisions/changes in camp and for Gods sakes play your new OL starters together in preseason for more than 5 minutes/ONE SERIES (against the freaking PANTHERS), especially when you know Dann Quinn and the Cowboys are coming to town. That unpreparedness caused a landslide on opening night that this team never recovered from... Mostly because it caused an injury to our arguably 2 best players on the team in the first drive of the game.
We all know the 4-5 handles by now. No disrespect-Do these people have jobs? Families? It’s literally 24/7/365. Who has this kind of free time?
I’m seriously wondering if it’s an AI spam bot.
Even the game review thread. This is what we want the website to be? Even the site owner is doing it.
Jones sucks and Mara meddles too much. What drives people here writing this over and over again multiple times per day?
Just my 2 cents…..which I’m sure is unwelcomed…
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The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
After a decade of losing the Giants not only make the playoffs but win a play off game.
You suggesting they should have allowed the two players most responsible for that success to walk is an unreasonable take.
The success was fleeting and somewhat apparent to see, making it a reasonable take.
Some decisions are tough ones in the moment, and not always easy for fans to understand. Or even guys that own football franchises. This was an example.
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The general consensus by the football people I ve heard speak on the topic is the Giants O line is better, than it was earlier in the year
You say that s not the case, ok, I think you re wrong.
I'm not saying the OL isn't playing better. Certainly having even a damaged Thomas is better than his replacements were. But Pugh isn't really part of the improvement, in terms of pass protection. And I didn't refute you on Schmitz, although he's been up and down (as most rookies are).
I just don't think the OL is the entire story. If it were, then no one should ever be in favor of any QB contracts beyond a rookie deal, because they're all just passengers on the OL train.
It s not the whole story. I also understand Giants can’t go into next season with Daniel as the only legit starter. I just don’t think DeVito is the other guy.
You cannot just look at stats and assume that the player is going to be awesome in the pros.
Hendon Hooker was able to throw one route. And was still going to be a day1/2 pick if he didn’t get hurt.
Daniel’s mechanics don’t have any major flaws from anyone I’ve spoken to or read.
With a better offensive line and better weapons Daniel Jones most certainly would have been better.
With a better quarterback and a better offensive line, Saquon Barkley most certainly would have been on more winning teams.
We can all debate the degree, but that doesn't seem like a controversial take.
But all that matters now is do you believe Schoen and Daboll should bet their jobs that specifically Jones is a cornerstone on a championship team?
Because I think it's as simple as that as of today.
A triple-down would put fan apathy into another stratosphere.
Sure, I guess its possible. Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco, & Nick Foles all won Super Bowls. But most Super Bowls are won with elite QBs, i.e. TB12, Mahomes, Montana, etc.
Daniel Jones will never be confused with the Montanas of the world. He's more in the Brad Johnson category.
He had a good season last year. He did help us get to the playoffs & played well in the WC game, though again...that Vikes defense was trash. But its pretty apparent that Dabs/Kafka designed an offensive game plan for him that had a time limit. Once defenses adjusted...well, it was over. And it speaks volume to me that both TT and DeVito played better this year than Jones.
To piggyback on Sean's comment, let's just move on. This is a failed experiment. I wish the kid the best going forward, but its over. Going into 2024 & hoping that he'll see the light in his SIXTH season...it ain't happening.
OL is playing a lot better. And those QBs have not shown the playmaking that we saw against Arizona for a brief period.
DeVito has played Vegas, Dallas, Washington and New England. Not really counting the Jets game because he didn’t throw it.
DeVito threw 2 TDs against Dallas which is a part of the whole 7 TD argument. Well, he had 86 yards passing and a bad rating in that game as well.
Yep, not great.
OL is playing a lot better. And those QBs have not shown the playmaking that we saw against Arizona for a brief period.
DeVito has played Vegas, Dallas, Washington and New England. Not really counting the Jets game because he didn’t throw it.
DeVito threw 2 TDs against Dallas which is a part of the whole 7 TD argument. Well, he had 86 yards passing and a bad rating in that game as well.
Here’s the issue that you continue to ignore. It’s been said 1000 times but the fact any of us are having a debate as to WHY Taylor and DeVito have played better is a major issue. We can make excuses and say the OL is magically playing better or the schedule is softer all we want, Some of that may be true. But the bottom line is…we should not be debating why a UDFA rookie that was on the practice squad 3 weeks ago is playing better than our $40M 5th year franchise QB.
That shouldn’t just be alarming to some of us. It should be alarming to every Giants fan on the planet.
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
As soon as Jones got the snap, he was under fire. For the majority of those games.
Kurt Warner went as far as to say that playing the QB position is impossible with the way that OL was playing at that time.
He didn’t help his cause this year at all but let’s be realistic about that part of it.
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
I'm not answering your question. But wanted to let you know that at least Alex Smith was outstanding in college for Utah. His senior year he was 32/4, 9+YPA, 68% comp%. And Utah was in a major bowl. So, at least he showed high level play before he entered the NFL...
But it is possible to tell the difference between a sack resulting from a guard whiffing on a block from a sack because the QB failed to identify a blitz or get the ball out on time.
you can rarely figure all of this out based upon the TV broadcast. You need to see the entire field to know whether anyone was open at the time when the QB was getting sacked or in a "too-late-to-throw" situation. You also need to have a view of whether the QB's vision was blocked or passing lane was impacted by the pass rush.
So many things that coaches can figure out by watching all of the film angles that fans have no clue about.
In the end, I am sure there are plenty of situations where the QB is at fault but also many others where the opposite is true despite what fans may think from their couches.
As soon as Jones got the snap, he was under fire. For the majority of those games.
Kurt Warner went as far as to say that playing the QB position is impossible with the way that OL was playing at that time.
He didn’t help his cause this year at all but let’s be realistic about that part of it.
He was under siege a bunch, yes. He also left plays on the field, missed open receivers, contributed to some of the sacks, etc. I get it. The OL was bad. But 4 1/2 years of excuses have just completely worn me out. He’s absolutely been dealt a bad hand. And I’m just speaking for myself but I’m damned sick and tired of watching pathetic football with an occasional decent game against trash defenses. Not nearly all Jones’ fault at all but he’s had the longest leash and most excuses. I’m just tired of it.
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
Not to worry. The new QB will make the OL better. We are set. Just add a new coach and plug in a FA and everything will jell.
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Eric in Li posted the example of Alex Smith as first round quarterback who was written off and resurrected his career.
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
I'm not answering your question. But wanted to let you know that at least Alex Smith was outstanding in college for Utah. His senior year he was 32/4, 9+YPA, 68% comp%. And Utah was in a major bowl. So, at least he showed high level play before he entered the NFL...
and 0 winning seasons in his first 6 years in SF and 2 more INTs than TDs.
2011 year 7 (age 27) 13-3, 17 tds, 5 ints. harbough year 1 (nyg NFCCG loss).
regardless of what we think of jones, coming back healthy isn't a guarantee,
we all know the odds of 1st round rookie qbs busting,
if it were my job on the line, the obvious choice for me would be rostering 1 of each and hoping one works out. sort it out on the field. they cant ask for much better of a qb draft to find one they like.
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
This is why there is so much issues on this site. People will discount Jones because he beat a bad Def Minny last year is the playoffs at their house. They will then turn around and say Devito played better than Jones when it is clear DeVito has much more time and this chart shows it. The OL was historically bad for Jones.
Then on the other side at what point does DJ get the blame here. He has had 5 years and hasn't been what we need him to be. He stares down WRs, gets hurt, and is slower to process than the NFL needs.
The thing is... both sides are right. I assume it is nonstop arguing because no one feels heard. That is what makes Eric's article so good. It lays it all out.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
Not to worry. The new QB will make the OL better. We are set. Just add a new coach and plug in a FA and everything will jell.
Do you think Daniel Jones will put the Giants in contention for a championship over the next three years?
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Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
Not to worry. The new QB will make the OL better. We are set. Just add a new coach and plug in a FA and everything will jell.
Because Burrow has had a great OL...
Great QBs make everyone-including OL-look better.
Stop. Making. Excuses.
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Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
Not to worry. The new QB will make the OL better. We are set. Just add a new coach and plug in a FA and everything will jell.
Do you think Daniel Jones will put the Giants in contention for a championship over the next three years?
Knowing which QB wont get you to a championship doesnt get you all that far to finding the guy who will. maybe it gets you on the road but they should be there any way since jones is hurt.
Finding the QB who will get them to a championship is the hard part that people forget that kind of matters most.
For the love of God, accept Jones for what he is...he's an average QB, at best.
I honestly can't believe we're discussing someone of his caliber going into his sixth season & still people are holding out hope. The ship has sailed.
For the love of God, accept Jones for what he is...he's an average QB, at best.
I honestly can't believe we're discussing someone of his caliber going into his sixth season & still people are holding out hope. The ship has sailed.
Here, here. It's exhausting, this unnecessary psychodrama we find ourselves in
Can we stop acting like Jones has never lifted up the team?
2011 year 7 (age 27) 13-3, 17 tds, 5 ints. harbough year 1 (nyg NFCCG loss).
regardless of what we think of jones, coming back healthy isn't a guarantee,
we all know the odds of 1st round rookie qbs busting,
if it were my job on the line, the obvious choice for me would be rostering 1 of each and hoping one works out. sort it out on the field. they cant ask for much better of a qb draft to find one they like.
Figuring it out on the field is going to be complicated if Jones is PUP all off season.
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and 0 winning seasons in his first 6 years in SF and 2 more INTs than TDs.
2011 year 7 (age 27) 13-3, 17 tds, 5 ints. harbough year 1 (nyg NFCCG loss).
regardless of what we think of jones, coming back healthy isn't a guarantee,
we all know the odds of 1st round rookie qbs busting,
if it were my job on the line, the obvious choice for me would be rostering 1 of each and hoping one works out. sort it out on the field. they cant ask for much better of a qb draft to find one they like.
Figuring it out on the field is going to be complicated if Jones is PUP all off season.
not really, then you get a first round pick who gets to take a ton of reps in the summer and gets a real chance to win a job. that possibility is very much part of the "sort it out on the field".
thats why i think they are going to invest a first and not just take some throwaway developmental guy who may or may not be that much different than devito. has devito played much different than levis, willis, ridder, howell, etc? his tools arent as good but performance wise id say no.
if jones makes it back healthy in time i think it's likely he'd be out a rookie but not impossible he doesnt. and even if you go in with 2 healthy as we've seen you may end up playing both if 1 gets hurt.
Can we stop acting like Jones has never lifted up the team?
Can we stop acting like Jones was only reason we won games? Barkley carried the offense more than Jones did in the first half. The defense had some real big games.
Jones played well at times last season. He was instrumental part of the reason they won some of those games. But he was not only one.
Can we stop acting like Jones has never lifted up the team?
Why does nobody else get any credit? What about the defense that only gave up over 20 points in 2 of the wins? What about Saqoun? What about Hodgins coming off of waivers and playing a big role down the stretch.
Why is it the team sucks, but Jones lifted them up? Daboll lifted them up last year. That’s who deserves a bulk of the credit
Can we stop acting like Jones has never lifted up the team?
Can we talk about how every player who left Jones' orbit was better away from Jones?
Ritchie James and tanner hudson are building on career years as well. Kyle Rudolph is living his best life as well as golden Tate. Myrick is looking at a pro bowl. John Ross, Dante petite, Kayden smith pharo cooper, cj board and Collin Johnson are all having big years. BIG TIME years. David sills and Marcus Johnson are having down years. Gotta keep it G, right, db?
not really, then you get a first round pick who gets to take a ton of reps in the summer and gets a real chance to win a job. that possibility is very much part of the "sort it out on the field".
thats why i think they are going to invest a first and not just take some throwaway developmental guy who may or may not be that much different than devito. has devito played much different than levis, willis, ridder, howell, etc? his tools arent as good but performance wise id say no.
if jones makes it back healthy in time i think it's likely he'd be out a rookie but not impossible he doesnt. and even if you go in with 2 healthy as we've seen you may end up playing both if 1 gets hurt.
I think it's highly likely the Giants take a QB inside the top 40, and that player is competing with DeVito for the starting job in camp.
What's complicated is if Jones's recovery is at the medium-to-long end of the spectrum and he's PUP until mid-August/September.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
I think we have too many holes for him to be successful here before he leaves. If he resurrects anywhere, I don't think it's in NY. FO would be insane not to try and move on at this point, especially based on injury history. But the draft is like a box of chocolates... no guarantee what we will get. That's why I care way Way WAY more about building a good roster, so that we are A) competitive no matter the signal caller AND B) Ready to strike WHEN our franchise QB is available. And who knows, maybe that somehow ends up being DJ anyway... LOL
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
Probably means engram who is looking for his 2nd pro bowl year.
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Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
That’s pure bullshit. The OL dramatically improving over the course of the year is beyond question among rational ppl. Beyond injuries to both of our quality players. Those guys had no idea what they were doing for the first month of the season. They didn’t know their assignments. It was free runners in any obvious pass situation. The running game was nonexistent. Dabs ran his training camp in September. This team is completely unprepared for the season.
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In comment 16309167 mittenedman said:
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Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
That’s pure bullshit. The OL dramatically improving over the course of the year is beyond question among rational ppl. Beyond injuries to both of our quality players. Those guys had no idea what they were doing for the first month of the season. They didn’t know their assignments. It was free runners in any obvious pass situation. The running game was nonexistent. Dabs ran his training camp in September. This team is completely unprepared for the season.
So you agree, players play better when Jones isn't there. And then for some strange reason they start sucking again when he returns. And then when he's out, they play better again. It's so weird when that happens.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
1- too many factors, no way to predict. if he's healthy enough to prove he's their best qb he plays, but who knows when that is? the only scenario i can envision where they dont risk re-injury is if season is over and they know they are moving on.
2- if the rookie struggles and its early season, i think they go to jones when healthy. id imagine they set the expectation that jones will be qb when he's healthy figuring if the rookie happens to play well enough to bledsoe jones, that's a phenomenal "problem" to have.
So you agree, players play better when Jones isn't there. And then for some strange reason they start sucking again when he returns. And then when he's out, they play better again. It's so weird when that happens.
Oh, producer/ debaser. A sad sack loser by any other name would smell as sweet.
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In comment 16309315 dancing blue bear said:
So you agree, players play better when Jones isn't there. And then for some strange reason they start sucking again when he returns. And then when he's out, they play better again. It's so weird when that happens.
Oh, producer/ debaser. A sad sack loser by any other name would smell as sweet.
Yes, the logical conclusion of your arguments don't sound great.
Let's draft a new QB at all costs.
"Here I come, to save tbe DAAAAAY!"
Let's draft a new QB at all costs.
"Here I come, to save tbe DAAAAAY!"
Just because everyone else has sucked doesn’t mean they shouldn’t move on from the guy who also isn’t good. It’s the only one that hasn’t changed, and it’s the most important out of any of those.
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3 head coaches. 4 Offensive Coordinators. Terrible offensive line. Unfathomable WR corps. Injuries. Terrible defense. Decidedly un-special teams.
Let's draft a new QB at all costs.
"Here I come, to save tbe DAAAAAY!"
Just because everyone else has sucked doesn’t mean they shouldn’t move on from the guy who also isn’t good. It’s the only one that hasn’t changed, and it’s the most important out of any of those.
Honestly - this is an accurate post. I think it’s time for both sides to acknowledge that Jones has been dealt a very bad hand AND is not the QB who can consistently lead us to where we need to be.
It’s nothing against him. Maybe a change of scenery may help. Maybe he needs a loaded team to be any good. I don’t know and it doesn’t matter anymore.
We need a new QB. We need better players around that QB. We need change.
Never heard that Reese was looking to draft a QB to replace Eli.
How many times does it need to said that one of Parson's coaches at PSU was on Judge's staff and told them Parson should not be drafted as he has issues.
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In comment 16308924 Mike from Ohio said:
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the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Overcoming a bad OL is really difficult for any QB, I think that's fair. I also think it's almost impossible for a mediocre or worse QB to overcome just about any adverse circumstances. So a mediocre QB will make a bad OL look historically bad. A mediocre QB will make a journeyman WR corps look like they've never played football before. A mediocre QB will make accomplished coaches look like they're lost at sea.
And what makes it even more difficult to assess is when the QB's deficiencies aren't really physical. It's easy to see when a QB is a statue in the pocket and can't escape pressure. It's easy to see when a QB has a weak arm and can't make all the throws. Those sorts of flaws jump off the screen.
But as I mentioned yesterday, when the QB's fatal flaw isn't that he does anything wrong, but that it just takes him 0.3 seconds longer to do it, that's not so obvious. But that 0.3 seconds makes the OL look worse because the pressure gets there in that fraction of a second. It makes the receivers look bad because the defenders who get beaten on the break can recover in that fraction of a second.
Couple that with a reluctance to throw with anticipation and replace it with a preference for safer throws underneath, and now you're not only asking your QB to play faster than he's capable of, you're asking him to do it more often than his counterparts because he lacks the benefit of the chunk plays that lead to quicker scoring drives. So now your QB isn't doing anything obviously wrong, but somehow you're ending up with field goals instead of touchdowns.
Indecisiveness and slow processing might be the worst fatal flaw that a QB can possess because that QB won't obviously be at fault, but it is his fault. And that QB will look great in practice and in training camp because those flaws aren't exposed in those circumstances. And that QB will put up great numbers against horrible defenses because what makes them horrible is that they also take too long to react. Those horrible defenses are horrible because the extra 0.3 seconds don't result in pressure for them, and because their DBs don't recover in those 0.3 seconds.
DJ is, physically, everything you might ask for in a QB. And his mental deficiencies aren't exposed against bad defenses, because those deficiencies are on such a thin margin to begin with. But the upside is capped. And a championship is always going to be just out of reach when your QB is just a tick too slow and only has one reaction (run) to off-script scenarios.
Great Post GD.
THIS IS THE MUST READ POST OF THIS THREAD!
Others have said this before, including myself. But none of us have laid it out so plainly for anybody to see. This is what people mean when they say he processes too slowly.
I will say this. To those who are casual observers, or simply don't understand football, this problem is now visible. However, if you really watch the video, especially the all 22s, you can see the moment that he should have let the ball fly if he had the processing ability and was capable of the appropriate anticipation. I've seen numerous times where he had a lane to throw if he threw as the receiver was making his break. However, he waits to see that separation. But by the time the separation is obvious, the window is closed, either because lineman have their hands up, are coming to the sack, or a LB is in direct line. Jones then hesitates to throw in the next window when the receiver has crossed the blockage, but by that time the rush got there, or the DB recovered, or the safety has read Jones "staring" down his receiver and is closing. In other words, if you spend the effort and do the analysis, that which is not obvious at a casual view or is not obvious from the broadcast becomes obvious. Obvious enough that I do wonder about giving him the contract. Professional evaluators should have been able to see this flaw. This is a fatal flaw, and one in which I doubt that coaching can fix, other than scheming around it.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
Absa-F*ing-lutely
Why people cannot see that building an offense around a RB just doesn't work in 2023, still amazes me.
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
I don't think that char supports your assertion. In fact quite the opposite. It looks pretty damning against Jones.
Do you see that vertical line. That is the NFL average of time to throw. Yes the Giants are a bit to the left (wrong side) of that line. There are MANY teams further left than the Giants and significantly so.
That says the Giants OL was playing below average, but certainly not historically bad.
On the other hand, the Giants are near the bottom of times pressured. That difference between a little below average OL and league worst (or nearly so) times pressured is 100% on the QBs.
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Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
I don't think that char supports your assertion. In fact quite the opposite. It looks pretty damning against Jones.
Do you see that vertical line. That is the NFL average of time to throw. Yes the Giants are a bit to the left (wrong side) of that line. There are MANY teams further left than the Giants and significantly so.
That says the Giants OL was playing below average, but certainly not historically bad.
On the other hand, the Giants are near the bottom of times pressured. That difference between a little below average OL and league worst (or nearly so) times pressured is 100% on the QBs.
Sorry I missed the fact that there were 3 NYG icons for each QB...
I missed DJ being tucked down in the lower left.
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
It was the same group that also scouted and drafted Daniel Jones.
Shepard - and that's a stretch
SB
Dex
Andrew Thomas
McKinney
and the rest are still on their rookie contracts.
It's an entire institutional failure. DJ is a part - a huge part - of that failure.
Best-case scenario for me is the Alex Smith/Mahomes situation where you draft a QB and have him sit for a year while Jones plays if he is healthy.
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In comment 16309346 rnargi said:
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3 head coaches. 4 Offensive Coordinators. Terrible offensive line. Unfathomable WR corps. Injuries. Terrible defense. Decidedly un-special teams.
Let's draft a new QB at all costs.
"Here I come, to save tbe DAAAAAY!"
Just because everyone else has sucked doesn’t mean they shouldn’t move on from the guy who also isn’t good. It’s the only one that hasn’t changed, and it’s the most important out of any of those.
Honestly - this is an accurate post. I think it’s time for both sides to acknowledge that Jones has been dealt a very bad hand AND is not the QB who can consistently lead us to where we need to be.
It’s nothing against him. Maybe a change of scenery may help. Maybe he needs a loaded team to be any good. I don’t know and it doesn’t matter anymore.
We need a new QB. We need better players around that QB. We need change.
Been saying for years that two things can be true: the team around Jones has been bad and Jones at best is a mediocre QB. Some posters read that as I'm putting all the blame on Jones. I've never placed all blame on Jones, just tried to give him a share of the blame pie
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
Haha! this is great Mcl
"...last vestiges of the Gettleman stink."
Let's draft a new QB at all costs.
"Here I come, to save tbe DAAAAAY!"
It's literally right there for you to figure out on your own.
Alas...
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
Where is the line drawn?
Why are all of these guys bad football players but you won't even consider that the QB is ALSO bad?
You must be a bad fan. How can you denigrate all of these guys? You're supposed to root for all the players, remember?
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
Quote:
Offensive Lineman
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
Where is the line drawn?
Why are all of these guys bad football players but you won't even consider that the QB is ALSO bad?
You must be a bad fan. How can you denigrate all of these guys? You're supposed to root for all the players, remember?
Even more, all evidence suggests that Hiatt, Wan'Dale, Waller, and Slayton are probably the best receiving core that Giants have had in the Jones era and yet he was the worst of the 3 QBs that have played this year at utilizing them.
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
What is the desire to support those shortcomings? I don't see anyone getting too excited about a receiver who can't remember his routes, or takes a split second too long in/out of his breaks; or a lineman who can't recognize a stunt, or takes a split second too long to get his punch into a defender. So why the undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?
Why the double standard?
There’s going to be injuries in every season.
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
Jones would never reveal it but he'd probably welcome a change of scenery at this point. He earned his contract, let a rookie take the beating.
"Where is the line drawn... Why are all of these guys bad football players but you won't even consider that the QB is ALSO bad?"
Obviously, they are not all bad football players. But taken on the whole, the list I provided is pretty good proof as to why the Giants have been the laughing stock of the NFL. As for Daniel Jones, I know his shortcomings by heart, and over the years I have articulated them on BBI. But can you admit the opposite? That a part of Daniel Jones' lack of success is also tied to the personnel he has been surrounded by?
"You must be a bad fan. How can you denigrate all of these guys? You're supposed to root for all the players, remember?"
I'll leave it to others to judge whether or not I've been a bad fan since I first started following this team in the early 1960s. As for denigrating these players and not rooting for them? I think you've got that wrong. I did root for them, but many of them (not all) turned out to be part of the problem rather than the solution.
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Who feel Daniel Jones can still be “the guy.”
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
What is the desire to support those shortcomings? I don't see anyone getting too excited about a receiver who can't remember his routes, or takes a split second too long in/out of his breaks; or a lineman who can't recognize a stunt, or takes a split second too long to get his punch into a defender. So why the undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?
Why the double standard?
Who exactly on this web site has "undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?" That's an assumption of yours which seems to have animated your posts.
Ok Pat.
There will be AT LEAST other bodies in the locker room that can throw a football.
I'm willing to bet they will be legit bodies given the fact that there's no guarantee that DJ will be ready for camp or the beginning of next season given the ACL/neck situations.
Obviously if the Giants win 11 games and Jones performs well they aren't going to move on from him. I'd love it if Daniel Jones became the QB you think he is consistently for the first time in his life.
However, the problem comes if/when next year is somewhere between 11 wins and this season's disaster. Let's say, 7-8 wins, no playoffs, Jones plays decently but not great - are you (and the Giants organization) going to move on from him?
My guess, unfortunately, would be no.
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Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
Did you actually watch the first 6 games without AT? And Ezeudu at LT? Before they signed Pugh? It's not WAY better but it is definitely better and more stable, you'd have to be blind not to have seen that. Plus Saquon was lost at end of AZ game. Yeah, it matters.
Holy shit. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I read some of these posts.
And when he gets hurt again in 2024 or 2025? What happens then. Keep paying a QB who can't put together more than a half season of decent play 45m? No chance.
They're going to pivot off Jones in the next two years. Even if he plays "okay".
We saw Jones throw 9 passes against the Raiders with Thomas and Barkley in the lineup. It was the worst he looked all year, throwing those two ducks to Hyatt, and that's saying something.
As I've said before, he was out to lunch this season (it's already been rumored that people in the building were mystified by it) and got injured. I guess Schoen and the Giants could write it off, but his floor as a quarterback is already fairly low and it would be negligent to not hedge against this taking a 1st or 2nd round QB.
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And I agree with the final assessment. If the Giants have the opportunity to draft a top flight quarterback, they should do it, though I'm not a fan of Caleb Williams. Too short. What irks me is the fact that while Mara certainly has a right to influence critical decisions, he seems to base those decisions on emotion. For years Jerry Reese wanted to draft a QB on the first round, convinced that Manning's lack of mobility and his wobbly passes were killing opportunities to win games, but Mara loved Eli and so Reese seethed and watched the Giants lose. And because Mara loves Jones, the Giants are stuck with a QB that cannot rise above mediocre personnel. Was Mara also responsible for the Giants passing on Micah Parsons because of "character issues"?
Never heard that Reese was looking to draft a QB to replace Eli.
How many times does it need to said that one of Parson's coaches at PSU was on Judge's staff and told them Parson should not be drafted as he has issues.
the QB thing with reese reeks of absolute horseshit. the only 1st round qbs in reese's last 3 drafts were:
2015 - jameis, mariota 1&2 overall (giants picked flowers 9th)
2016 - goff, wentz 1&2 overall, paxton lynch 26th (giants picked apple 10th)
2017 - trubisky 2nd, mahomes 10th, watson 12th, (giants picked engram 23rd)
so paxton lynch is the only 1st rd qb who was on the clock they could have picked, but i guess mara was pounding the table for eli apple?
mahomes and watson are the 2 who went low enough a trade up was possible, the rumor on mahomes was mcadoo liked him not not reese, which also struck me as a fiction. sean payton has talked a lot about how much he liked mahomes too and he still passed on him for lattimore even though brees was older than eli. they picked davis webb in the 3rd that year and claimed to have a "much higher grade on him", i guess mara allowed it bc he watched enough Cal he was comfortable knowing webb sucked enough to not threaten eli?
this franchise has sucked so bad people see ghosts everywhere.
2018 Eli revenge tour part 2: Electric Boogaloo.
Hello Mrs. Jones.
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In comment 16309502 M.S. said:
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Who feel Daniel Jones can still be “the guy.”
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
What is the desire to support those shortcomings? I don't see anyone getting too excited about a receiver who can't remember his routes, or takes a split second too long in/out of his breaks; or a lineman who can't recognize a stunt, or takes a split second too long to get his punch into a defender. So why the undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?
Why the double standard?
Who exactly on this web site has "undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?" That's an assumption of yours which seems to have animated your posts.
Are you fucking serious?
Why didn't your list of shitty players above include the QB?
this franchise has sucked so bad people see ghosts everywhere.
True, but I also don't understand people who don't think the organizational rot created by the Mara family is still present.
They drafted Davis Webb because Chris Mara went to the Senior Bowl and liked him, and that's how much weight his opinion carried in somehow ranking him ahead of Patrick Mahomes despite pleas from the coaching staff.
And if the Giants start the season 0-4, Jones gets hurt at some point and misses games and the team finishes 6-11?
At that point you are looking for a new GM and HC because the ones we have in place are morons.
Find me the post where I have not acknowledged that the surrounding talent has been subpar? All I've said is that I don't buy the fairy tale that everything around DJ has failed him but he's never been the one to let his team down with his own flawed play.
And if you think the roster is so bad (it is), then how did the scouts and exec and coaches who are responsible for that roster magically get the QB choice correct? They didn't.
I think there are numerous spots on the roster that need to be upgraded. None are as important as QB because no position in sports is as important as QB.
If you want to suggest that a QB is merely a passenger at the mercy of his surrounding roster, then take that all the way to its logical conclusion: it doesn't matter who the QB is, it only matters what the surrounding roster construction is. And if that's the case, why pay any QB rack rate?
I refuse to give in to the hypocrisy.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
1- too many factors, no way to predict. if he's healthy enough to prove he's their best qb he plays, but who knows when that is? the only scenario i can envision where they dont risk re-injury is if season is over and they know they are moving on.
2- if the rookie struggles and its early season, i think they go to jones when healthy. id imagine they set the expectation that jones will be qb when he's healthy figuring if the rookie happens to play well enough to bledsoe jones, that's a phenomenal "problem" to have.
When you posted sort it out on the field -- I took that to mean the outcome will be determined by how both players perform on the field. And why Jones's inavailibility is a variable.
If the operating assumption is Jones gets his job back when he's healthy, and that only changes if the Giants are eliminated or the rookie is playing well, that makes more sense.
But that also feels like the primary sorting happened before either ever gets on the field. Which is OK and smart planning.
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they picked davis webb in the 3rd that year and claimed to have a "much higher grade on him", i guess mara allowed it bc he watched enough Cal he was comfortable knowing webb sucked enough to not threaten eli?
this franchise has sucked so bad people see ghosts everywhere.
True, but I also don't understand people who don't think the organizational rot created by the Mara family is still present.
They drafted Davis Webb because Chris Mara went to the Senior Bowl and liked him, and that's how much weight his opinion carried in somehow ranking him ahead of Patrick Mahomes despite pleas from the coaching staff.
it's simple, some of us were also met fans during the wilponzi era so we know what real organizational rot looks like. the giants have more of a faux rot.
they did a shitty job replacing to potential hof'ers (coughlin/eli) but the odds of replacing both effectively were somewhere between 1-10%, and getting either end of that equation wrong impacts the other end. the jets have spent 20+ years since parcells looking and gone through how many HCs/QBs not as good as either of those 2? browns? commanders? raiders? dolphins pre-mcdaniels? those are some storied franchises who have been similarly inept, some of them with true rot (snyder).
Ryan, there is no stability. Everyone wants Bobby Johnson gone, that'll lead to another reset and new philosophy. That athletic article by Duggan a few weeks ago was so true about the OL, there is never a chance for the unit to gel together.
Look at the Eagles. They've had Stoutland since 2016 and they've invested less in the OL than NYG.
He was almost there already but Thomas turned into an elite left tackle with Johnson. Ezeudu has been hurt his entire time here. JMS looks like he's getting a little better as the season goes on but he has been hurt.
Are we sure Neal would be this awesome RT with another coach?
And remember, Johnson's first season as OL coach was 2022, and we actually had clean pockets and a pretty good running game. The OL wasn't good by any means, but it was the best it had been in probably 5 years.
Everyone wants to fire Johnson. I'm not sure that is the recipe. Draft better players.
For a long time they tried to plug holes as they appeared, and that's a result of essentially ignoring the OL in the draft from 2005-2012. In those 8 drafts, they only used ONE pick before the 4th round on an O-lineman - Will Beatty in the 2nd round in 2009.
2005: 0 OL
2006: 0 OL
2007: Adam Koets (R6)
2008: 0 OL
2009: Beatty (R2)
2010: Petrus (R5)
2011: James Brewer (R4)
2012: Brandon Mosely (R4), Matt McCants (R6)
Then from 2016-2019, they forgot to draft OL again:
2016: 0 OL
2017: Adam Bisnowaty (R7)
2018: Hernandez (R2)
2019: George Asafo-Adjei (R7)
During that period, they signed the likes of Nate Solder and Patrick Omameh, both of whom were colossal failures.
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1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
1- too many factors, no way to predict. if he's healthy enough to prove he's their best qb he plays, but who knows when that is? the only scenario i can envision where they dont risk re-injury is if season is over and they know they are moving on.
2- if the rookie struggles and its early season, i think they go to jones when healthy. id imagine they set the expectation that jones will be qb when he's healthy figuring if the rookie happens to play well enough to bledsoe jones, that's a phenomenal "problem" to have.
When you posted sort it out on the field -- I took that to mean the outcome will be determined by how both players perform on the field. And why Jones's inavailibility is a variable.
If the operating assumption is Jones gets his job back when he's healthy, and that only changes if the Giants are eliminated or the rookie is playing well, that makes more sense.
But that also feels like the primary sorting happened before either ever gets on the field. Which is OK and smart planning.
you can only sort on the field with who is on the field. that's pretty fundamental. nobody has any idea when jones will be on the field bc anyone can suffer a setback or recover differently (schoen said all that a few days ago).
the "primary sorting" you and i are speculating about is hypothetical and untethered to a lot of info that wont be available until May/June, that's why it's ahead of what happened when people get on the field.
i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
I dont deal with sarcasm this well in the morning
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It is somewhat shocking the amount of OL the organization has trotted out there from 2013-2021 with basically terrible results. This isn't a comment about Jones or anything - you'd think they'd hit on a few of those over the years but they just all pretty much sucked. Baffling.
For a long time they tried to plug holes as they appeared, and that's a result of essentially ignoring the OL in the draft from 2005-2012. In those 8 drafts, they only used ONE pick before the 4th round on an O-lineman - Will Beatty in the 2nd round in 2009.
2005: 0 OL
2006: 0 OL
2007: Adam Koets (R6)
2008: 0 OL
2009: Beatty (R2)
2010: Petrus (R5)
2011: James Brewer (R4)
2012: Brandon Mosely (R4), Matt McCants (R6)
Then from 2016-2019, they forgot to draft OL again:
2016: 0 OL
2017: Adam Bisnowaty (R7)
2018: Hernandez (R2)
2019: George Asafo-Adjei (R7)
During that period, they signed the likes of Nate Solder and Patrick Omameh, both of whom were colossal failures.
It's as if our player evaluation staff don't know what a good offensive lineman looks like.
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In comment 16309669 ryanmkeane said:
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It is somewhat shocking the amount of OL the organization has trotted out there from 2013-2021 with basically terrible results. This isn't a comment about Jones or anything - you'd think they'd hit on a few of those over the years but they just all pretty much sucked. Baffling.
For a long time they tried to plug holes as they appeared, and that's a result of essentially ignoring the OL in the draft from 2005-2012. In those 8 drafts, they only used ONE pick before the 4th round on an O-lineman - Will Beatty in the 2nd round in 2009.
2005: 0 OL
2006: 0 OL
2007: Adam Koets (R6)
2008: 0 OL
2009: Beatty (R2)
2010: Petrus (R5)
2011: James Brewer (R4)
2012: Brandon Mosely (R4), Matt McCants (R6)
Then from 2016-2019, they forgot to draft OL again:
2016: 0 OL
2017: Adam Bisnowaty (R7)
2018: Hernandez (R2)
2019: George Asafo-Adjei (R7)
During that period, they signed the likes of Nate Solder and Patrick Omameh, both of whom were colossal failures.
It's as if our player evaluation staff don't know what a good offensive lineman looks like.
How confident are you that they know what a good quarterback looks like? Have you seen all the guys they've chosen at that position since Ernie planted his flag on the Eli Manning hill?
The '22 Vikings were 13-4 going into the playoffs.
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The ‘22 Vikings defense sucked.
The '22 Vikings were 13-4 going into the playoffs.
With a bad defense.
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
The notion that Jones is/was a proxy for Gettleman devotees namong the majority of fans, is, frankly, an absurdity. I doubt you could find a handful of fans who were or are favorably disposed to Jones who also were secrely pining away for the days of Dave Gettleman. It's a ridiculous assertion.
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
Admitting a mistake, accepting responsibility have been replaced with defending one’s first opinion with passion bordering on fanaticism in the face of undeniable facts.
People halt their ability to learn and grow with this particular life philosophy that is far too common.
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i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
This is silly. Do you think they'll set it to a musical montage?
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If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
This is silly. Do you think they'll set it to a musical montage?
The Giants went 1-5
Much like this season, most of the “success” he had was in 1 game. 402 yds & 2 TD vs New Orleans.
Jones has twice done this.
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In comment 16309743 Eric on Li said:
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i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
It's not at all clear Jones has the locker room. You keep suggesting he's a beloved leader. I don't think so. Not when half the league is mocking him. You don't think guys in the locker room see what the rookie corner for SEA sees? You don't think guys in the locker room see TT and TD operate better than Jones with all the team's problems? You don't think guys in the locker room are tired of Jones apologists blaming them for the QB's deficiencies?
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If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
This is silly. Do you think they'll set it to a musical montage?
LOL.
I don't think most of Jones' teammates stare at him with the same love, devotion and yes, maybe even lust, that some on this site do.
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In comment 16309866 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
This is silly. Do you think they'll set it to a musical montage?
LOL.
I don't think most of Jones' teammates stare at him with the same love, devotion and yes, maybe even lust, that some on this site do.
Why not Saquon & Shepard journey inspire them? They both had ACL injuries as well.
Therefore.
If Jones is healthy
And
Outperforms the rookie in camp.(Jones could be throwing already)
He will start.
My opinion, try not to be enraged by it.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
Let's play this out literally. Jones had his surgery on November 22, 270 days forward is August 18. In a near perfect scenario Jones will be cleared to practice 3 weeks before the season begins.
In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
Oh please
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The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
Let's play this out literally. Jones had his surgery on November 22, 270 days forward is August 18. In a near perfect scenario Jones will be cleared to practice 3 weeks before the season begins.
In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
He will have a red shirt on will be throwing all camp
It appears you don't have a strong understanding of how PUP works and/or the general timing around ACL recoveries.
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In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
He will have a red shirt on will be throwing all camp
It appears you don't have a strong understanding of how PUP works and/or the general timing around ACL recoveries.
It isn’t outrageous or provocative
I've asked this a bunch of times...
The most popular answers are usually:
No...BUT
or
Maybe..IF
We need a QB
ALSO
Jones will be given a chance to rehab and start.
I don’t get the venom I receive for that.
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on this board truly believe that we can actually win a SB with Jones at this point?
Yes, I do. It would require some good fortune that eludes Jones. I don’t think he can stay healthy. I want a Maye,Williams, Daniel’s or a later prospect.
We need a QB
ALSO
Jones will be given a chance to rehab and start.
I don’t get the venom I receive for that.
When you say "good fortune that has eluded Jones" are you referring to health? Or....
That's materially different than being cleared to practice at the extreme low end of the recovery timeline and likely beating out a blue chip draft pick.
Better chance of me bedding Margot Robbie.
You are afraid that he will do well.
If you knew he would fail, you would not show so much emotion in this debate.
It’s OK
The only way Jones could possibly continue starting is if we win.
I am not afraid of winning, no matter who starts at QB.
You are afraid that he will do well.
If you knew he would fail, you would not show so much emotion in this debate.
It’s OK
I'm terrified of Jones starting in 2024. Because I'm terrified of them starting off 1-5 again, not because I think he'll do well.
I find the interesting situation is if the Giants pick a QB in the top 5 or somewhere close to that and he looks terrible and what direction they go. Jones health is a big factor but that could get interesting.
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what's the mistake(s) and who's admitting it?
It is being HELL BENT on being correct. People are more concerned with shouting their POV over and over, rather than a discussion. They use insulting language unnecessarily repeatedly and the fire is returned and all we do is shout.
That's rich. You mean like when you went around pretending to be FMIC calling anyone who said it was a mistake to pay DJ a moron?
You are afraid that he will do well.
If you knew he would fail, you would not show so much emotion in this debate.
It’s OK
They been wrong for so long, might as well drive off the cliff.
Funny thing is, the true best case scenario is jones playing well enough for someone to take his contract. but even that delicious cap space and a golden ticket couldn't disengage them from their obsessions.
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In comment 16309865 Dnew15 said:
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what's the mistake(s) and who's admitting it?
It is being HELL BENT on being correct. People are more concerned with shouting their POV over and over, rather than a discussion. They use insulting language unnecessarily repeatedly and the fire is returned and all we do is shout.
That's rich. You mean like when you went around pretending to be FMIC calling anyone who said it was a mistake to pay DJ a moron?
Hindsight changes that but we didn’t know all the players we would lose and the difficulty of the early schedule. I see a bunch of people taking victory laps because their opinion on Jones appears more accurate.
Rooting for new QB
We have different reasons, do we need to be enemies.
It seems as though this board is filled with sides.
I don’t want to be on a side.
Go Giants!
Again, the Giants won a road playoff game in 2022, the first time they had done that in 10 years.
Does this novel concept of winning somehow not include the most recent season where they did?
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In comment 16309866 Thegratefulhead said:
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If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
This is silly. Do you think they'll set it to a musical montage?
Men are moved by effort in my experience. When they see a teammate put in the work, they notice. You might be person who is indifferent about the locker room and the personalities that make it up, we likely will not agree here. Team chemistry matters IMV
I imagine the offensive linemen would be moved by Jones learning how to read a fucking blitz.
'Witness Jones's journey'... you've got to be fucking kidding me. Sounds like something out of True Detective.
You are afraid that he will do well.
If you knew he would fail, you would not show so much emotion in this debate.
It’s OK
The anit-Jones crowd is terrified of a fragile QB coming off a bad injury getting injured again and adding another $22M to the cap in 2025 when he isn't even here.
If the Giants draft a QB I would not have Jones on the roster out of necessity but I would never activate him in 2024. They can't afford to have him injured. He needs to leave after 2024 in perfect health.
The only reason I keep bringing up 2022, is because you guys continue to say that the Giants haven't won anything in 10 years.
It is baffling to me that everyone has conveniently forgotten what happened less than a year ago.
Athletically for sure, he would do that to anyone. I have watched most highly drafted QB that are drafted for said fail at the NFL. Jones could very likely outperform a rookie. You are blinded by a desire to eject Jones. I get it.
You're getting more strange by the day.
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Perhaps non members of the DJFC want to, ya know, win? Novel concept I know.
Again, the Giants won a road playoff game in 2022, the first time they had done that in 10 years.
Does this novel concept of winning somehow not include the most recent season where they did?
It's like this never happened.
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In comment 16309970 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Perhaps non members of the DJFC want to, ya know, win? Novel concept I know.
Again, the Giants won a road playoff game in 2022, the first time they had done that in 10 years.
Does this novel concept of winning somehow not include the most recent season where they did?
It's like this never happened.
I agree with your point about the selective memories, but you should be put in a timeout for posting that gif.
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ryan. You keep talking about the ‘22 season. How much winning did Jones do THIS season?
The only reason I keep bringing up 2022, is because you guys continue to say that the Giants haven't won anything in 10 years.
It is baffling to me that everyone has conveniently forgotten what happened less than a year ago.
I don't think anyone forgot about 2022.
Some just don't see it as anything but a good season by Jones. Not some great break out performance that shook the NFL.
I would argue 2022 was more a testament to Dabka's game planning and coaching. And identifying a system that would work in the short term for Jones and the team...
"Daniel Jones you and your team just got embarrassed by a division rival. What are you going to do next?"
"I'm going to Disney World!"
The standards are pathetic.
Before the 2022 season, you and the majority of BBI thought the Giants were going to absolutely suck, probably go 3-14 or 4-13 or something so that effect. They'd move on from Jones, the roster was awful, etc, etc.
The team won 10 games, including a road playoff win.
And now you are saying that it "doesn't do it for you" even though before all that happened - you likely predicted that the team was going to be awful?
Basically - you're saying well actually that doesn't matter because hey we got killed by the Eagles anyway so....eh....I'm over that season, moving on.
Do I have that right?
"Daniel Jones you and your team just got embarrassed by a division rival. What are you going to do next?"
"I'm going to Disney World!"
The standards are pathetic.
You predicted that we'd be the worst team in football, that Tyrod Taylor would be starting by week 4, and we'd be an embarrassment. Did you not say this over and over again?
And now you are somehow moving the goal posts so far and away beyond anything reasonable - that you are actually criticizing the Giants for losing by 30 to the Eagles in the divisional round of the playoffs - a spot that you predicted they would not come even remotely close to achieving?
GTFO with that. Come on man. I know you hate Jones but at least be consistent with your critiques.
Link - ( New Window )
Flash forward 5 months.
"They won a road playoff game and then lost to a superior team? Who fucking cares, that means nothing."
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I have been refraining for a while, but enough with how great last year was.
"Daniel Jones you and your team just got embarrassed by a division rival. What are you going to do next?"
"I'm going to Disney World!"
The standards are pathetic.
You predicted that we'd be the worst team in football, that Tyrod Taylor would be starting by week 4, and we'd be an embarrassment. Did you not say this over and over again?
And now you are somehow moving the goal posts so far and away beyond anything reasonable - that you are actually criticizing the Giants for losing by 30 to the Eagles in the divisional round of the playoffs - a spot that you predicted they would not come even remotely close to achieving?
GTFO with that. Come on man. I know you hate Jones but at least be consistent with your critiques.
I'll admit I was surprised the Giants got as far as they did; it's difficult to do that with a quarterback that sucks. Daboll earned every bit of that Coach of the Year award.
And again, last season. How did Jones look this season? How about a rookie cornerback saying that the entire team knows he stares down his first option? How about the offense looking more functional with his backups running the show?
I think that applies.
To be fair, which I'm sure you will agree with, everything that could possibly go wrong with this offense did. From players to staff.
What was saw through that collapse was that Jones didn't have the skills - physical and mental - to stop many of the leaks.
The only way Jones could possibly continue starting is if we win.
I am not afraid of winning, no matter who starts at QB.
He had a really nice game against Commanders, no doubt about it.
We lost to the Jets in embarrassing fashion. We got killed by Vegas. We got killed by Dallas. We scored 10 points against New England. DeVito was really good against Washington.
By my estimation - that is 1 good performance out of 5 games. What am I missing?
And when you’re paying someone $40 million, maybe we can expect him to stop the bleeding? Call me crazy.
"Daniel Jones you and your team just got embarrassed by a division rival. What are you going to do next?"
"I'm going to Disney World!"
The standards are pathetic.
I was (mostly) joking. You add too much here to be on time out.
And again, last season. How did Jones look this season? How about a rookie cornerback saying that the entire team knows he stares down his first option? How about the offense looking more functional with his backups running the show?
Again - watch Jones against Dallas in 2022. Played well. Watch the OL against Dallas, SF, Seattle, and Miami early on this season.
Unmitigated disaster. Actually - the OL was amazingly bad as well against Dallas in the MNF game last year, and Jones nearly pulled it off.
I also think he cannot play that role here, there is too much history and sentimentality with this player here. And it's probably like any business. I doubt it's just Mara. I'm sure Daboll loves the guy, Schoen, ownership and from all accounts his teammates love him too. All of this plays a role and it's why keeping him around is complicated. I think a fresh start for both parties is best.
Giants win = Jones put the team on his back and carried them to victory.
Giants loss - Jones put the team on his back, but could only carry them so far.
I see why the word "heroic" gets thrown around the way it does.
Yeah, Jones was bad for that quarter. He made bad throws, including the deep balls to Hyatt.
But he’s never going to be an elite QB. And he’s about to enter his sixth season. I think it’s fair to assume he is who he is at this point.
Wish the kid luck. But ready to move on and go find an elite QB.
Is anyone willing to take the position of the former?
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I have been refraining for a while, but enough with how great last year was.
"Daniel Jones you and your team just got embarrassed by a division rival. What are you going to do next?"
"I'm going to Disney World!"
The standards are pathetic.
I was (mostly) joking. You add too much here to be on time out.
No worries. I get it...for me that was a nauseating moment in this team's history. It mystifies me that so many are just glossing over that and pointing to the Minnesota game like it was a massive moment that validates the Jones experience. It was a fun few days, but that good feeling vanished about 5 minutes after kickoff in Philadelphia.
For me the Minnesota game was rendered irrelevant by how the following game went. It's one thing if the Giants went to Philly and lost a well contested game. But what we learned was that the team was a complete pretender that had benefited by circumstance just to be there.
But he’s never going to be an elite QB. And he’s about to enter his sixth season. I think it’s fair to assume he is who he is at this point.
Wish the kid luck. But ready to move on and go find an elite QB.
This is what makes it so hard to move on.
You're saying it, I've said - and we don't even know the guy personally.
I'm sure if we did it would make it ssssooooo easy to give him "just one more shot at it".
Is anyone willing to take the position of the former?
With the benefit of hindsight it's clearly a one off. In January of 2023, it was probably a building block with 98% of BBI. The board was holding their breath that Kafka wouldn't go to Arizona and Martindale wouldn't go to Indy. There were a lot of "arrow is pointing up" posts and "close the gap" - I'll raise my hand as well.
I think if you told BBI on January 15th even after the Eagle loss, the Giants would be sitting at 4-8 with a glaring need at QB and Daboll & Wink fighting, most would be shocked.
AT being hurt and SB in the second game certainly didn't help. Maybe some were happy with the back up RB's and what they did at LT. Neal looked to make great strides....
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
💯
It's troubling for many to consider the possibility that last year was the Giants' version of winning playoff games with Blake Bortles or Case Keenum.
The first two games after Minnesota:
Philly: 38-7 loss
Dallas: 40-0 loss
I agree 100% - it's a business first.
But any good manager will tell you that it's hard to let go of people that want to be good at their jobs, put in the time to be good at their jobs, say and do all the right thing for the company .... BUT ultimately fail to produce results.
2017: 3-13
2018: 5-11
2019: 4-12
2020: 6-10
2021: 4-13
There is a good chance the Giants aren't sitting in this mess. But, since they were so incredibly bad, they've really leaned into it as a building block. "The Giants are back."
What were some of the specifics from the Vikings game you thought the Giants should carry over to 2023?
In a playoff game
Its one game folks. I dont know why this Viking game seems to be the only game that matters for some.
Btw- you should probably remember how extraordinary fortunate to draw the Minnesota Vikings instead of the San Francisco 49ers. People would do well to remember how virtually everyone felt that the Vikings were the only team that the giants could beat.
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Agree on the view on 2022. I loved the build up to the game and the game itself vs. Minnesota. It felt good to care about Giants football for a few weeks, even after the second half collapse to the season.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
💯
It's troubling for many to consider the possibility that last year was the Giants' version of winning playoff games with Blake Bortles or Case Keenum.
The first two games after Minnesota:
Philly: 38-7 loss
Dallas: 40-0 loss
So it was:
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
Indeed. Look, credit to Jones for executing. Dabka put him in a position to succeed, the Vikings struggled with assignments, and Jones delivered. That's worth something (not $160M, but I digressed).
But playing D was the Achilles heel of the Vikings all of 2022. And many of the 18 QBs they played exploited it.
What it really comes down to is we have two very different seasons to work with. In 2022 the Jones and the Giants overachieved (at least based on expectations) and this year in which they have clearly underachieved. Which one was the mirage? Truth is nobody knows for sure. Is Jones good enough to win a Super Bowl. Who knows! Who thought in 2006 when the Giants lost 6 of their final 8 games to miss the playoffs after starting 6-2 that Eli would be good enough to win 2 titles; who thought in 1983 after the Giants went 3-11-1 and Simms failed to finish another season that they'd win a Super Bowl just 3 years later. And Jones was certainly good enough to get a rather rag-tag bunch into the playoffs last year and once you get to the playoffs, well who knows.
People want football to be rational, logical, linear but most of the time it isn't. Its random, its ad hoc, its unpredictable and the one thing you wnat to do, and its what the Giants appear to be trying to do, is keep as many options open to them as possible.
Otherwise people are just screaming at the moon.
Dallas opening day?
SF?
Seattle?
Miami?
Do you have a problem with the Arizona game? Do you recall Sy's review of the OL play? I hope just about everyone says it was a very good day for Jones here.
What was different about those games compared to the Minny game and every one of the games they won last season?
That is DJ's season. I'm not going to over analyze any QB coming off a three week injury in a QTR and a couple plays. You can if you choose to.
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
Let's try again. You said the Vikings game was a building block. What were some of the things that happened in the Vikings game you liked?
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Is afraid of Jones being given a chance to start in 2024.
You are afraid that he will do well.
If you knew he would fail, you would not show so much emotion in this debate.
It’s OK
They been wrong for so long, might as well drive off the cliff.
Funny thing is, the true best case scenario is jones playing well enough for someone to take his contract. but even that delicious cap space and a golden ticket couldn't disengage them from their obsessions.
Have they? I think I’ve been pretty spot on on Jones and Gettleman.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
Well said Mike
- Jones was the team's leading rusher with 78 yards and 7 first downs
- Jones was incredibly efficient completing 24 passes with an outstanding first down rate of 40%
- Though his intended air yards per attempt was below 6 yards
Are those a few of the things you wanted the Giants to carry over?
What it really comes down to is we have two very different seasons to work with. In 2022 the Jones and the Giants overachieved (at least based on expectations) and this year in which they have clearly underachieved. Which one was the mirage? Truth is nobody knows for sure. Is Jones good enough to win a Super Bowl. Who knows! Who thought in 2006 when the Giants lost 6 of their final 8 games to miss the playoffs after starting 6-2 that Eli would be good enough to win 2 titles; who thought in 1983 after the Giants went 3-11-1 and Simms failed to finish another season that they'd win a Super Bowl just 3 years later. And Jones was certainly good enough to get a rather rag-tag bunch into the playoffs last year and once you get to the playoffs, well who knows.
People want football to be rational, logical, linear but most of the time it isn't. Its random, its ad hoc, its unpredictable and the one thing you wnat to do, and its what the Giants appear to be trying to do, is keep as many options open to them as possible.
Otherwise people are just screaming at the moon.
Just hope if the draft falls QB they pull the trigger and have the grit to pull a Kenny Golladay with Jones if that is how the production/depth chart falls.
Not bad...huh? ;)
bw in dc : 8/28/2022 9:42 pm : link
with Carolina, Chicago, Jax, Seattle, Houston and Detroit.
And I still think the NFCE is up for grabs for a variety of reasons. Does any team really scare you?
With 5 wins against those six non-division opponents, there just may be a way to get to another 4 or 5.
So, I'm going 9-8. And 10-7 is not impossible...
You can't claim Jones won the Vikings game and then the Giants lost the Eagles game. That is logically and intellectually dishonest.
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Just to pepper in some facts, here's what most of thought going into 2022. Link - ( New Window )
Not bad...huh? ;)
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There are six very winnable non-division games...
bw in dc : 8/28/2022 9:42 pm : link
with Carolina, Chicago, Jax, Seattle, Houston and Detroit.
And I still think the NFCE is up for grabs for a variety of reasons. Does any team really scare you?
With 5 wins against those six non-division opponents, there just may be a way to get to another 4 or 5.
So, I'm going 9-8. And 10-7 is not impossible...
And how'd you do this year Nostradamus?
And how'd you do this year Nostradamus?
Right now, it looks like Nostradamus take a major step backwards...
I'm hoping DeVito can salvage me.
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And how'd you do this year Nostradamus?
Right now, it looks like Nostradamus take a major step backwards...
I'm hoping DeVito can salvage me.
Haha, me too Bw in DC. Having a cutlet sandwich tonight to keep this hot streak going!
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either still hold out hope that Jones is THE guy, or that he was THE guy but now the injuries have derailed him...
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
The notion that Jones is/was a proxy for Gettleman devotees namong the majority of fans, is, frankly, an absurdity. I doubt you could find a handful of fans who were or are favorably disposed to Jones who also were secrely pining away for the days of Dave Gettleman. It's a ridiculous assertion.
Clatter...
There have been people this year (albeit before the start of the season, who were claiming that DG did a "great job of building the foundation of this team", then they would go on to praise Jones, Barkley, Dex, Thomas, Williams, McKinney and Ojulari...
The people who made these claims are the same people who are still die hard Jones supporters.
It ain't hard to do the math.
I doubt you could find a handful of fans who were or are favorably disposed to Jones who also were secrely pining away for the days of Dave Gettleman. It's a ridiculous assertion.
I can't recall FMIC's position on Jones but I would not be surprised if he was a considerable Jones guy as a hometown kid, and the other one was mr "you've got to wait and see and let it play out" with Gettleman himself, Ryanmkeane. You can find him in any Jones thread.
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So it was:
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
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In comment 16310173 Johnny5 said:
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So it was:
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
No one said it was. The point is Jones isn't good and the team decided to pay him a big contract a year before a great QB draft.
If that hasn't happened this coming offseason would be cut and dry.
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In comment 16310173 Johnny5 said:
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So it was:
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
Sure would be nice if you were so passionate about this whenever the Jones fan boys keep giving him all the credit for the wins and blaming the team for the embarrassing losses. There was literally a post on one of the other threads that claimed Jones “dragged a bad team to the playoffs last season”. The same posters give Jones all the credit for beating Minnesota. Then turn around and completely dissolve him of any blame for what happened in Philly. Or any other game they lose. Only THEN does it become a “team game”…
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In comment 16310201 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16310173 Johnny5 said:
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So it was:
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
Sure would be nice if you were so passionate about this whenever the Jones fan boys keep giving him all the credit for the wins and blaming the team for the embarrassing losses. There was literally a post on one of the other threads that claimed Jones “dragged a bad team to the playoffs last season”. The same posters give Jones all the credit for beating Minnesota. Then turn around and completely dissolve him of any blame for what happened in Philly. Or any other game they lose. Only THEN does it become a “team game”…
Ugh. ABSOLVE him of any blame. Stupid phone
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
Again with road playoff win. It's a wild card game against a 3 seed. Who played above their heads and had a lousy defense. You want to pretend it was an historic victory, fine. The rest of the league thought it was no big deal and the Giants got unceremoniously thumped the next week. How many years do you want to squander on a guy who is not the answer at the most important position. Because we can waste a decade doing this if you really want to.
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For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
Scooter can you read. That's not what I said at all. I said he gives the Giants the best chance to win going forward. Are you honestly going to tell me that either Tommy DeVito or Taylor would give the Giants a better chance to make the playoffs (if that's the best they can) next year. Give me a break. Taylor hasn't won a game literally since the AFL was around and DeVito just won a couple of games against two of the worst teams in the league, one where the Giants gave him 6 turnovers and the other against arguably the worst team in the league in which the Giants were a +2 and still only scored 10 points.
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In comment 16310372 Snorkels said:
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For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
Scooter can you read. That's not what I said at all. I said he gives the Giants the best chance to win going forward. Are you honestly going to tell me that either Tommy DeVito or Taylor would give the Giants a better chance to make the playoffs (if that's the best they can) next year. Give me a break. Taylor hasn't won a game literally since the AFL was around and DeVito just won a couple of games against two of the worst teams in the league, one where the Giants gave him 6 turnovers and the other against arguably the worst team in the league in which the Giants were a +2 and still only scored 10 points.
The offense looked better under TT and hasn't looked worse under TD. If Jones isn't the best QB on the Giants this year how can he be the one who gives them the best chance next year?
For the record I don't want any of the 3 starting next year unless it's as a fill in for injury
I totally agree with you but forget it man. These threads will always be 1000 miles long with these guys just digging in and want to talk about Jones Jones Jones. It is what it is. I have trouble not responding as well... lol. If you defend Jones at all or bring up the fact that the coaching and rest of the team were a big part of the problem, you just get labeled as an excuse maker and a DJFC member. lol. Because, you know, like the team and coaching are totally on par with the Eagles and Philly. It's just the QB position! It's holding us back!
LOL
What they showed was that they had pieces to work with if they got better than below average QB play.
There's a big, big gap between "true elite QB" and what you've gotten from Jones for 60+ starts, and it's not at all worth biting your nails in fear of losing such ability.
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The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
What they showed was that they had pieces to work with if they got better than below average QB play.
There's a big, big gap between "true elite QB" and what you've gotten from Jones for 60+ starts, and it's not at all worth biting your nails in fear of losing such ability.
It's insane really. Afraid to part with such a mediocre talent. Setting back our progress to continue to evaluate this obviously limited player. We waste years on the low probability outcome that he can win a championship. He's been outplayed this season by a journeyman and an undrafted rookie. What more do these people need to see?
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For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
I totally agree with you but forget it man. These threads will always be 1000 miles long with these guys just digging in and want to talk about Jones Jones Jones. It is what it is. I have trouble not responding as well... lol. If you defend Jones at all or bring up the fact that the coaching and rest of the team were a big part of the problem, you just get labeled as an excuse maker and a DJFC member. lol. Because, you know, like the team and coaching are totally on par with the Eagles and Philly. It's just the QB position! It's holding us back!
LOL
DJ derangement syndrome. Some serious mental illness up in here. And they will outlast you. They wear those astronaut diapers so they don’t have to leave the keyboard and miss an opportunity to repeat themselves. Word.
DJ derangement syndrome. Some serious mental illness up in here. And they will outlast you. They wear those astronaut diapers so they don’t have to leave the keyboard and miss an opportunity to repeat themselves. Word.
I must admit. That was very funny.
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The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
Mostly.
As in except for QB and probably RB.
Excellent article. Perfectly summed it up.
5 years with only one barely flash in the pan season to show for it is far too low below the pale.
Jones is done.
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.
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In comment 16310372 Snorkels said:
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For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
Scooter can you read. That's not what I said at all. I said he gives the Giants the best chance to win going forward. Are you honestly going to tell me that either Tommy DeVito or Taylor would give the Giants a better chance to make the playoffs (if that's the best they can) next year. Give me a break. Taylor hasn't won a game literally since the AFL was around and DeVito just won a couple of games against two of the worst teams in the league, one where the Giants gave him 6 turnovers and the other against arguably the worst team in the league in which the Giants were a +2 and still only scored 10 points.
So, what is your goal for the team? Win some games, maybe make the playoffs, but if so, make an early exit?
Is that what good looks like to you?
I have news for you. That isn't the goal. The goal is to place another silver football in the trophy case. Jones give the Giants an near zero percent chance of doing that.
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.
This right here is why it is absolutely impossible to have discussions around here. You guys simply don’t know how to read or are just willfully turning on your selective memories. Literally EVERYONE has acknowledged that there are other issues on the team. EVERYONE has stated that the OL has sucked balls. Yet, here you are claiming they refuse to acknowledge “consideration to all the variables around him”. Learn how to read. And after you read, let it sink in.
Then you say people that see the flaws in Jones’ game don’t understand how the position works. That’s precious. Because the opposite is actually true. It is YOU and the constant defenders that have no clue how the position works. That is incredibly obvious. Blaming everyone on the planet except for the QB for 4 1/2 years of mostly poor QB play is amateur hour. There has been plenty of people that have broken down videos using All 22 to try to explain to the less knowledgeable that try to explain to you where Jones is contributing to the disaster. But instead of listening, you find reasons to dismiss those that are breaking things down for you. It’s easier to simply blame the OL every time there is a sack. Or the coaching. Or the GM. Or the owner. Or the weather. Or the food vendors.
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.
So Jones’ critics don’t have enough football knowledge to understand that the Giants offense isn’t any good or how even what a QB is responsible for? And they are only using these 5 games this season to base their criticism on? That they disregard everything you find important?
And you think this is interesting?
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thing with that crew who just trashes Jones w/o any consideration to all the variables around him that did have a big impact this season is that they don't even understand how the position works imv. To not even acknowledge the reality of what the situation was in most of the games he played this season is pretty weak imv.
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.
This right here is why it is absolutely impossible to have discussions around here. You guys simply don’t know how to read or are just willfully turning on your selective memories. Literally EVERYONE has acknowledged that there are other issues on the team. EVERYONE has stated that the OL has sucked balls. Yet, here you are claiming they refuse to acknowledge “consideration to all the variables around him”. Learn how to read. And after you read, let it sink in.
Then you say people that see the flaws in Jones’ game don’t understand how the position works. That’s precious. Because the opposite is actually true. It is YOU and the constant defenders that have no clue how the position works. That is incredibly obvious. Blaming everyone on the planet except for the QB for 4 1/2 years of mostly poor QB play is amateur hour. There has been plenty of people that have broken down videos using All 22 to try to explain to the less knowledgeable that try to explain to you where Jones is contributing to the disaster. But instead of listening, you find reasons to dismiss those that are breaking things down for you. It’s easier to simply blame the OL every time there is a sack. Or the coaching. Or the GM. Or the owner. Or the weather. Or the food vendors.
Very well stated Shock!
So Jones’ critics don’t have enough football knowledge to understand that the Giants offense isn’t any good or how even what a QB is responsible for? And they are only using these 5 games this season to base their criticism on? That they disregard everything you find important?
And you think this is interesting?
Yeah, it's a disingenuous comment by LOS and that ilk.
Everyone I respect acknowledges that the entire offense has looked broken. That there are issues beyond Jones.
I believe, however, you can still judge Jones's play despite the other issues. Alas, he demonstrates he's not a force multiplier player and, instead, needs too many other parts to be in place to potentially be more successful.
Meanwhile, the other side of the debate takes the position that until everything around Jones is better, making an assessment on Jones is unfair. Thus, he needs even more time...
And around and around we go...
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So Jones’ critics don’t have enough football knowledge to understand that the Giants offense isn’t any good or how even what a QB is responsible for? And they are only using these 5 games this season to base their criticism on? That they disregard everything you find important?
And you think this is interesting?
Yeah, it's a disingenuous comment by LOS and that ilk.
Everyone I respect acknowledges that the entire offense has looked broken. That there are issues beyond Jones.
I believe, however, you can still judge Jones's play despite the other issues. Alas, he demonstrates he's not a force multiplier player and, instead, needs too many other parts to be in place to potentially be more successful.
Meanwhile, the other side of the debate takes the position that until everything around Jones is better, making an assessment on Jones is unfair. Thus, he needs even more time...
And around and around we go...
I also hate the constant bashing of our receivers. I happen to think we have the talent to be a good offense. Hyatt is far better than we have used him as and Robinson could be a dynamic complement. They also have one of the top 5 RBs in Barkley. There are weapons; there isn't the alpha dog QB to get them the ball.
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a quarterback who is actually better than a backup level talent. And if I have to settle for a backup level talent at quarterback, I want to allocate as little cap as possible to the position and devote it elsewhere until I find my elite quarterback. You know, precisely the opposite of what the Giants have been doing for the past five years.
Will things change? Can Mara and Schoen admit that DJ is a backup level talent that should never have been drafted at six and certainly should never have been given anything but the franchise tag as a second contract? Judging from the entrenched positions of many on this thread, I doubt it. Denial and self-preservation are very powerful allies in the war on common sense...
Do you notice the symbolism of Jones sitting next to the Waste Management can? ;)
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the OL, that unit likely becomes about average, because that is how bad it is right now. With an average to good OL, I don't see Jones elevating this team to more than 10 wins. His ceiling is about that without an elite team around him. How is that an elite QB?
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a quarterback who is actually better than a backup level talent. And if I have to settle for a backup level talent at quarterback, I want to allocate as little cap as possible to the position and devote it elsewhere until I find my elite quarterback. You know, precisely the opposite of what the Giants have been doing for the past five years.
Will things change? Can Mara and Schoen admit that DJ is a backup level talent that should never have been drafted at six and certainly should never have been given anything but the franchise tag as a second contract? Judging from the entrenched positions of many on this thread, I doubt it. Denial and self-preservation are very powerful allies in the war on common sense...
Two, the QB you describe is right there for the taking and they might be in position to grab one now.
However, I think a true franchise QB elevates this team to an 8-10 win team as is.
I'm sorry I just couldn't resist. You mean sort of like last year.
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In comment 16310923 Matt M. said:
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the OL, that unit likely becomes about average, because that is how bad it is right now. With an average to good OL, I don't see Jones elevating this team to more than 10 wins. His ceiling is about that without an elite team around him. How is that an elite QB?
I want a QB that will take a slightly better version of this team and put points and wins on the board.
I want a quarterback who is actually better than a backup level talent. And if I have to settle for a backup level talent at quarterback, I want to allocate as little cap as possible to the position and devote it elsewhere until I find my elite quarterback. You know, precisely the opposite of what the Giants have been doing for the past five years.
Will things change? Can Mara and Schoen admit that DJ is a backup level talent that should never have been drafted at six and certainly should never have been given anything but the franchise tag as a second contract? Judging from the entrenched positions of many on this thread, I doubt it. Denial and self-preservation are very powerful allies in the war on common sense...
One, I do think Jones is better than backup level talent. He just isn't a better than average starter. But, his problem isn't talent. It's his inability to read the D before the snap, read the D after the snap, and process what he's seeing.
Two, the QB you describe is right there for the taking and they might be in position to grab one now.
By far the most important attribute as it relates to talent for a starting NFL quarterback is his brain. Sy knew this before DJ was drafted. To say someone has elite physical skills without an elite performing brain is to say he is at best a backup level talent in the NFL.
By far the most important attribute as it relates to talent for a starting NFL quarterback is his brain. Sy knew this before DJ was drafted. To say someone has elite physical skills without an elite performing brain is to say he is at best a backup level talent in the NFL.
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
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Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
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Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
And PS I am still waiting for someone to tell me who this 'smart' franchise QB is that we should be dumping Jones for.
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In comment 16311139 Snorkels said:
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Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
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In comment 16311140 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16311139 Snorkels said:
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Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
He won’t admit why. We all know why he made those comments about those two specifically. And it also explains his love affair with Daniel Jones…
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In comment 16311148 Snorkels said:
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In comment 16311140 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16311139 Snorkels said:
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Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
He won’t admit why. We all know why he made those comments about those two specifically. And it also explains his love affair with Daniel Jones…
Are you dense man! I just told you why. They are great QBs in large part because of their exceptional athleticism. As pure passers they're barely top ten guys.
But I see what you guys are doing here. Deflection, change the subject, attack when you can't answer the basic question here.
Still no one will provide an answer to the question: Who is the franchise QB the Giants are going to replace Jones with? I am being to think is it possible that the Giants don't actually have a replacement in the room yet. And what rational football team anywhere gets rid of the guy who gives them the best chance to win games when they don't have anyone better in the room.
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
And PS I am still waiting for someone to tell me who this 'smart' franchise QB is that we should be dumping Jones for.
Do you have the same reaction when you watch Josh Allen?
As for replacing Jones, nobody has a certain answer for that. What is certain is now is the time to get into the process of finding that franchise QB.
And that make take a while...
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In comment 16311154 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 16311148 Snorkels said:
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In comment 16311140 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16311139 Snorkels said:
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Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
So that means they aren't bright?
C'mon bw; you're better than that! I have no idea what their smarts are but I can watch football and see that neither of those guys is winning games because of their smarts.
How did you make that assessment, and why did you make it about those two QBs specifically?
He won’t admit why. We all know why he made those comments about those two specifically. And it also explains his love affair with Daniel Jones…
Are you dense man! I just told you why. They are great QBs in large part because of their exceptional athleticism. As pure passers they're barely top ten guys.
But I see what you guys are doing here. Deflection, change the subject, attack when you can't answer the basic question here.
Still no one will provide an answer to the question: Who is the franchise QB the Giants are going to replace Jones with? I am being to think is it possible that the Giants don't actually have a replacement in the room yet. And what rational football team anywhere gets rid of the guy who gives them the best chance to win games when they don't have anyone better in the room.
You specifically said, and I quote:
“The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.”
You literally accused them of not being the brightest bulbs in the QB room. That has NOTHING to do with their athleticism. YOU are the one deflecting p, not us. You said it. Own it.
There are people who assume Lamar Jackson is stupid because he is black, comes from an economically distressed area and has a speech impediment. And many of these same people assume Daniel Jones is intelligent because he's tall, white, good looking, comes from an affluent family, and looks like a wholesome boy.
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In comment 16311129 Snorkels said:
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Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
But Jones went to Duke and he's...
Well, you know...
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You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
But Jones went to Duke and he's...
Well, you know...
That’s fucking appalling, dude. Seriously. There is no place for that
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In comment 16311240 BrettNYG10 said:
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You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
But Jones went to Duke and he's...
Well, you know...
That’s fucking appalling, dude. Seriously. There is no place for that
Try to keep up with the pace of conversation.
Lamar is a genius on the football field. And Jones has been unmasked as a bit of a dummy.
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In comment 16311240 BrettNYG10 said:
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You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
But Jones went to Duke and he's...
Well, you know...
That’s fucking appalling, dude. Seriously. There is no place for that
Cool, take it up with Snorkels. He's the one with the dog whistle.
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In comment 16311129 Snorkels said:
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Finally we agree on something Mike. The brain part. Anyone doubt that Hurts and Lamar Jackson, the two QBs who appear headed toward winning conference MVP awards this year aren't the brightest bulbs in the NFL QB room these days.
Gee, why do you think that?
Because they are both primarily great athletes who dominate as much with their legs as their arms. it is not complicated.
Why would their athleticism mean they weren’t the “brightest bulbs”? One has nothing to do with the other. That isn’t complicated.
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In comment 16311254 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16311240 BrettNYG10 said:
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You realize that Jones relies on his legs even more than either Hurts or Jackson, right?
But Jones went to Duke and he's...
Well, you know...
That’s fucking appalling, dude. Seriously. There is no place for that
Cool, take it up with Snorkels. He's the one with the dog whistle.
Not a dog whistle, more like a bullhorn.
I would trade next years 1 to get one, so do not strawman this into claiming I want to gooble Jones’ sac.
But, it might not happen.
Who is our trade back up into the first guy?
BW?
Terps?
Trying to move the discussion forward.
I would trade next years 1 to get one, so do not strawman this into claiming I want to gooble Jones’ sac.
But, it might not happen.
Who is our trade back up into the first guy?
BW?
Terps?
Trying to move the discussion forward.
I have no idea what it means to gooble someones sac but it certainly doesn’t sound like a pleasant experience. Good on you for drawing a line in that sand.
I would guess Penix and Nix would potentially be trade up candidates into the late 1st but I’m not sure I’m thrilled with giving up picks to move up for either, personally. I guess it just depends on the asking price and whether Schoen values the 5th year option enough to make that move
I respectfully request that this thread be re-pinned and remain pinned until after the draft to serve as a BBI historical narrative of this crucial crossroads time in Giants history.
I've seen and die hard rooted the entire NFL Super Bowl era of NY Giants football, I find the current on-field ineptitude caused by, in my opinion, the football incompetence of John, Chris, and Tim (McDonnell) Mara more disheartening than Wellington's 'lost weekend' from 1965-1981.
Tom Coughlin's last winning season was 2012. Since 2013 the Giants regular season record is 71 wins and 118 losses and 1 tie. That's a winning percentage below 38%, or viewed differently, the Giants have lost 62% of their games since 2013.
Over the past 11 seasons, including the current one, the Giants have played in three playoff games and won only one.
If this season continues to play out the way the first 12 games have gone it will be the 8th time in 11 years that the Giants will lose 10 games or more. Going back further to 2010, 2016 is the only year the Giants won double digit games.
Since 2013, the Giants have been outscored by their opponents in 10 out of 11 seasons, in four of those seasons, including the present one, by over 100 points. Since 2013, the Giants have been outscored by an unfathomable 774 points.
I typed out the above numbers to highlight the absurdity of downplaying ownerships role in this second “Mara lost weekend” and defending the Mara family's management of the team. I think anyone who endorses or justifies this level of mismanagement, unless they’re on the Giants payroll, is either blindly loyal or has Stockholm syndrome.
How much losing is it going to take for the Mara family to let the football professionals they’ve hired control the roster with total autonomy. Including, without ownership communicating their player favoritism through the media. I think that undermines and puts fan base pressure on the GM and Head Coach, and spins the wheel of firing and hiring, after a one-year honeymoon season.
Between 2013 and 2023, the Giants have cycled through 5 Head Coaches (6 if we include Steve Spagnuolo's mop up during McAdoo's 2nd year), 3 General Managers, and only 2 starting Quarterbacks: Eli Manning from 2013-2018 and Daniel Jones from 2019-2023. The only constants during this entire period of laughing stock losing have been the 3 Mara's. Ownership has directly and indirectly mandated who the starting QBs will be even though they’ve been outscored by 774 points.
If next season starts with Daniel Jones, Tommy Devito and Tyrod Taylor back on a cheap contract as the three Giants QBs I think we're going to see another Head Coach get fired and possibly the GM too.
In the vast cosmos of unsolved mysteries, the inner workings of 1925 Giants Way between the first and second year of a NY Giants Head Coach's tenure since 2016 might not rank high in importance. However, it’s at the top of my personal list. If anyone has a plausible theory, please share it. I can’t figure it out. What the hell happens in that building in the off season?
2 starting QB's.
I must admit, that think like is playing a part in all this never crossed my mind. I thought that kind of thinking was left back in the 90's.
Makes me wonder, just how naive I've been.
Sometimes when objective facts and the eye ball test don't match up with what's in a persons heart. They say their quiet part out loud.
That's been one of the grand ironies of the Jones era, as a matter of fact. Duke-educated QB groomed by the Manning-guru Cutcliffe, and his on-field intelligence is probably his worst trait. A rookie center has to call protections instead of him, and I'll never forget Jones standing there getting hit by Witherspoon like a lemming against Seattle instead of the recognizing the corner blitz and throwing to the hot read.
Sometimes when objective facts and the eye ball test don't match up with what's in a persons heart. They say their quiet part out loud.
Some good eggs here.
@MySportsUpdate
It is so rare for this to happen, but it sure looks like all 5 of top QBs taken in the 2020 NFL Draft are franchise quarterbacks.
• Joe Burrow: No. 1 pick
• Tua Tagovailoa: No. 5 pick
• Justin Herbert: No. 6 pick
• Jordan Love: No. 26 pick
• Jalen Hurts: No. 53 pick
5/5 🎯
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Let’s the draft falls a way that we don’t get one of the big three.
I would trade next years 1 to get one, so do not strawman this into claiming I want to gooble Jones’ sac.
But, it might not happen.
Who is our trade back up into the first guy?
BW?
Terps?
Trying to move the discussion forward.
I have no idea what it means to gooble someones sac but it certainly doesn’t sound like a pleasant experience. Good on you for drawing a line in that sand.
I would guess Penix and Nix would potentially be trade up candidates into the late 1st but I’m not sure I’m thrilled with giving up picks to move up for either, personally. I guess it just depends on the asking price and whether Schoen values the 5th year option enough to make that move
I live in the PNW and my daughter attends OSU. I would not move up for either and would wait until 2. I actually think some of the later prospects will make better pros. Pen is vs Nix classic debate. Pen has a cannon but hate the mechanics. Nix is a machine but lacks the drive to push the deep out IMV
i
Right up there with the Germans and Pearl Harbour.