How do Schoen and Daboll feel about the REST of the roster? If they feel they are "close" then it absolutely makes sense to somehow try and get "their guy" THIS YEAR in the draft.
If they feel they aren't that close after further evaluation - then I would say the strategy of non QB BPA for your first 3 picks might hold.
Not saying they are totally sold on 1 way or the other right now. But that's what it comes down to for me.
Schoen seems to be nailing some of these picks outside of Neal - jury is out on him obviously. I'd wager that if the Giants end up with the 7th pick, they will not fight to the death to move up for a QB.
Mara side vs. GoTerps side is moot/tiresome at this point. I've always kind of been kind of in the middle. I thought (and still do) that Jones is a good QB, but the Giants are a dumpster fire. OL has been bottom-of-the-league bad his entire tenure. Weapons have been bad. There has been no continuity in coaching. He's on his third coach. The only stability has been in how bad the OL has been: bottom of the league.
But at this point, the injuries have rendered the argument moot. Giants need to move forward and, at the very least, get a young QB to groom. Jones will be here next year because of financial reasons. Even if he plays great, he is IMO only one injury away from a career ender. And until this OL is fixed, the probability of that is high.
Can DeVito be that guy? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd draft one of the top 3 QBs (Williams, Maye, Daniels (my favorite)), or if they are gone, get one in the 2nd round or trade up in the 1st. IMO it's a no-brainer at this point.
Jones cut/traded by the beginning of 2025 season, unless there is a miraculous turnaround. Draft pick and Devito to start 2025 season
Mara side vs. GoTerps side is moot/tiresome at this point. I've always kind of been kind of in the middle. I thought (and still do) that Jones is a good QB, but the Giants are a dumpster fire. OL has been bottom-of-the-league bad his entire tenure. Weapons have been bad. There has been no continuity in coaching. He's on his third coach. The only stability has been in how bad the OL has been: bottom of the league.
But at this point, the injuries have rendered the argument moot. Giants need to move forward and, at the very least, get a young QB to groom. Jones will be here next year because of financial reasons. Even if he plays great, he is IMO only one injury away from a career ender. And until this OL is fixed, the probability of that is high.
Can DeVito be that guy? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd draft one of the top 3 QBs (Williams, Maye, Daniels (my favorite)), or if they are gone, get one in the 2nd round or trade up in the 1st. IMO it's a no-brainer at this point.
Jones cut/traded by the beginning of 2025 season, unless there is a miraculous turnaround. Draft pick and Devito to start 2025 season
Agree with this. Never have been as down on Jones as some but it does not matter now with the neck injuries. Still not sold on DeVito as anything other than a feel good story. Would like to see the Giants draft BPA high this year and try to move back up into the late first round for one of the QBs just below the top 2. This team is so far from complete that just drafting a QB is not going to be the solution. Need at least 2 OL, one DL and likely a TE and S, assuming they lose McKinney.
How do Schoen and Daboll feel about the REST of the roster? If they feel they are "close" then it absolutely makes sense to somehow try and get "their guy" THIS YEAR in the draft.
If they feel they aren't that close after further evaluation - then I would say the strategy of non QB BPA for your first 3 picks might hold.
Not saying they are totally sold on 1 way or the other right now. But that's what it comes down to for me.
Schoen seems to be nailing some of these picks outside of Neal - jury is out on him obviously. I'd wager that if the Giants end up with the 7th pick, they will not fight to the death to move up for a QB.
I agree with your take and to me it’s also do I think Schoen and Daboll are right the guys? I do, and will trust they make the right decisions.
Thing is for me, I don’t see how people can think they’re the right guys but question just about every move. If someone isn’t in the Schoen/Daboll camp I’ve got no problems with their opinions or questioning the moves. It’s the ones who want it both ways I have trouble understanding. Ones who say they’re the right guys but pick them apart every chance they get.
I guess what I’m saying is we’re either all in with them or we’re not. If they’re the guys, trust they’ll get the QB situation right. Whether they draft one, trade for one, sign a vet or still see something in Jones. For me they’re the ones on the inside and I trust they’re the most knowledgeable and informed about it.
Jones is not the answer for all the reasons Eric and others have intelligently
articulated. I see Jones as a place setter for the next QB they draft this year.
Who that will be is above my pay grade. I've seen all the possible first round candidates play on TV this year and lukewarm about all of them.
They have to get one in the first two rounds even if not one of them is a lock to become the franchise QB. DJ is a warrior but at best he is just an average quarterback who I don't believe is capable of leading the team to a Super Bowl win. Schoen and Daboll have to get it right or we are in for many more years of lousy football
an assumption that the fans will be more accepting of getting blown out by Dallas and Philly with a new QB. That will last 5 minutes, if it's even true.
an assumption that the fans will be more accepting of getting blown out by Dallas and Philly with a new QB. That will last 5 minutes, if it's even true.
of this debate. My guess is there will be no winner. It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss or build the roster prioritizing the lines.
It doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks because it is out of our control. The Giants will remain in business irrespective of the decision.
RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
of this debate. My guess is there will be no winner. It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss or build the roster prioritizing the lines.
It doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks because it is out of our control. The Giants will remain in business irrespective of the decision.
I have read this comment several times. How does trying something new at QB set the franchise back?
Maybe if we mortgage a ton of future picks to get a guy. But reality is this franchise can't be set back much lower anyway. We don't score and because of it we don't win enough games to be competitive in the division. We are nowhere.
1. Draft BPA and 2. Do something for the QB room either by draft or FA. They aren't going to stand still and hope. But, that doesn't necessarily mean moving up to draft Williams, Maye or Daniels. But, then again, it could. I think the player they want and what it takes to get him will dictate how they draft more than DJ and his contract.
There's middle ground in the evaluation of his ability.
There's no desperation for picking a QB. IF a decent candidate is staring you in the face on draft day, it would be foolish to pass him up. Whatever power influenced his contract will still support him, but that support has to have diminished this season. There's no point rooting for a team that is not ready to upgrade. But, not taking one doesn't mean the Giants brass/owners are sold on Jones. The cost to move up may be prohibitive, or there may not be a good enough candidate at our original draft spot. No point drafting another Jones just to draft one (I call that the true Go Terps option-take somebody...anybody). That's throwing away a draft pick, or not maximizing talent acquisition. Similar sentiment, but lower cost for taking a flier on a late first, or second round, QB. I think you move up if necessary to get a top choice, but not at any cost.
Too early for this conversation. It's possible that Devito will be on par with a second tier draft candidate by the end of the season if he keeps progressing. This could make him the flier QB, or the gap QB until we're in a better position to draft a replacement. We don't know the draft order, or the QB prospect order.
and playing the "we should have done X" game. If the Giants were so low on Jones coming into last season that they weren't giving him a 5th year option, they should have never even started him and gave the job to Tyrod Taylor. Why? Looking back on it, Jones having a good 2022 was probably the worst thing for the franchise.
After 10 years of poor football the fans would have never went for us moving on from him after not only making the playoffs, but winning a game, so Schoen/Daboll were almost forced to resign him. Add on top of that the fact that our draft position took away the ability to draft a future franchise guy and the FA options such as Carr, weren't options I'd throw long term money at either.
So Jones playing well in 2022 left Schoen in a bad place. He almost had to resign him, but nothing about the contract signaled to me that he was really all that committed to him. As Eric said, the right move would have been to franchise Jones and overpay Saquon, but something tells me that given the players in question, it is likely Mara had some involvement/say in how these negotiations went down.
In Schoen's mind, I think the contract was to give them 2 more years to find "their guy" expecting Jones at least plays adequately. I don't think anyone, including myself, expected how fast things would go downhill to start the season.
With that being said, Joe no longer has 2 more years to replace him, we need someone in place, at least developing, next season. And while I do think by cleaning up the OL and adding a weapon Jones would be an average and capable starter, the fact that he's only made 1 full season out of 5 is the number 1 reason I'd move on from him. You need the leader of your team to be there every week, Jones has not shown he can do that.
As far as I'm concerned its DeVito's team for the rest of the year. And next season will be about developing someone we draft to be our next franchise guy. Jones role with the team going forward will be no more than that of a placeholder if whoever we draft is "developmental". Hopefully he plays well enough in this role to where someone will offer us some draft capital for him after the season.
of the Jones era. I have been more on the side of he lacks weapons, his line stinks, etc. up until the last few weeks.
Seeing an undrafted rookie FA QB come in and play better than your 5th year starting QB making $40M per year is enough evidence that it’s time to move on from Jones. And DeVito has an even worse group to play with than Jones had considering Waller has been out, additional injuries on the line, etc.
Honest question. If Jones were fully healthy right now who would you rather have out there against GB? Remember, it’s a prime time game which I believe Jones has never won. I would rather see DeVito out there myself. I just don’t trust Jones can get the job done.
of the Jones era. I have been more on the side of he lacks weapons, his line stinks, etc. up until the last few weeks.
Seeing an undrafted rookie FA QB come in and play better than your 5th year starting QB making $40M per year is enough evidence that it’s time to move on from Jones. And DeVito has an even worse group to play with than Jones had considering Waller has been out, additional injuries on the line, etc.
Honest question. If Jones were fully healthy right now who would you rather have out there against GB? Remember, it’s a prime time game which I believe Jones has never won. I would rather see DeVito out there myself. I just don’t trust Jones can get the job done.
Beat the Redskins last year, but I see your point.
RE: RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
of this debate. My guess is there will be no winner. It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss or build the roster prioritizing the lines.
It doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks because it is out of our control. The Giants will remain in business irrespective of the decision.
I have read this comment several times. How does trying something new at QB set the franchise back?
Maybe if we mortgage a ton of future picks to get a guy. But reality is this franchise can't be set back much lower anyway. We don't score and because of it we don't win enough games to be competitive in the division. We are nowhere.
yeah I mean seriously - are we saying it can get worse?
I left the Jones side after the Rams game in 2021(?). Awful game. I have had enough of the blank stares at defenses.
I begrudgingly returned midway through last season when it looked like Daboll was getting through to him.
After the Eagles debacle, I started to get uneasy.
Felt better after camp and the one series he played in pre-season
Then reality....
Aside from the 2nd half of the Cardinals game it has been pure crap. The Seattle game was the coup de grace. All the evils reared their ugliness in plain view. A game there for the taking and a rookie DB played Jones like a fool.
No, IMV, Jones should be replaced and gotten rid of ASAP. A new QB (even if Bo Nix in the 2nd) is needed. Someone that can read a defense and get the ball out quickly to defeat the rush/blitz.
I've "tangled" with Terps and bw enough to know I was wrong.
So John Mara (or Bob Papa) if you are reading - do not fight Joe Schoen when he says it is time for a new QB, even if it costs next years #1 to move up. You well remember the plane over Giants Stadium in 1978....it may soon be making another flight!
RE: this may be one of the most (unintentionally?) hilarious sentences
I just really don't understand the intense focus on the QB. This team is not close. This team has not been close for 12 years.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
whether a QB entering his sixth year is the answer. Just think about that - going into his sixth season...
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
ThomasG i think "setting the franchise back" comment is more about forcing a QB pick just to pick one.
I wouldn't think Schoen would do that as he's smarter than that. But saying "we have to get a QB, we just have to take one" could backfire immensely if we draft a QB over an edge or WR group, or hell even OL.
Now, it could work out great if the QB is awesome. But Schoen is not going to take a 2nd tier QB in the first round, IMO.
Mara side vs. GoTerps side is moot/tiresome at this point. I've always kind of been kind of in the middle. I thought (and still do) that Jones is a good QB, but the Giants are a dumpster fire. OL has been bottom-of-the-league bad his entire tenure. Weapons have been bad. There has been no continuity in coaching. He's on his third coach. The only stability has been in how bad the OL has been: bottom of the league.
But at this point, the injuries have rendered the argument moot. Giants need to move forward and, at the very least, get a young QB to groom. Jones will be here next year because of financial reasons. Even if he plays great, he is IMO only one injury away from a career ender. And until this OL is fixed, the probability of that is high.
Can DeVito be that guy? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd draft one of the top 3 QBs (Williams, Maye, Daniels (my favorite)), or if they are gone, get one in the 2nd round or trade up in the 1st. IMO it's a no-brainer at this point.
Jones cut/traded by the beginning of 2025 season, unless there is a miraculous turnaround. Draft pick and Devito to start 2025 season
I just really don't understand the intense focus on the QB. This team is not close. This team has not been close for 12 years.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
I agree. Team has mostly drafted based on "need" and it has backfired. Schoen took Thibodeaux where not a lot of mocks or even fans had him on the radar for our pick at 5. As it turns out, aside from Sauce Gardner and Garrett Wilson (QB driven performance) you could argue he's the best pick from that draft thus far.
RE: this may be one of the most (unintentionally?) hilarious sentences
I've ever read: "Haskins not only flopped in Washington, but he was killed last year."
it was in the history section and that is a pretty sucint history.
i think in general there's a lot of emotion wrapped up in the jones saga but it's still the same simple equation it was in 2022 when they were obviously willing to move on declining the 5yo. when they see a better option they will take it.
the only question is if they see a better option when they are on clock. there wasnt in 2022. i think 2024 will be different.
As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
I would be shocked if they don't make a play for Williams or May. No one is watching the giants except the old guys; the new generation is disinterested. They are a bottom tier team in a top tier market. They need to give old fans a reason to continue to buy tix and new fans a reason to watch. This feels a lot like the year they drafted Eli.
In comment 16308452 Johnny5 said:
[quote I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones. [/quote]
I don't get this.
Is Philly and Dallas going to set the standard and keep playing at that level for five more years with no decline?
I always wondered what their true thoughts were going forward 11 months ago. They had the Barkley issue along with it, which did not help. If they tagged Jones . . . what if he has a good 2023? Then we really have to pay up, so what - at least you know he panned out instead of hoping. He was a hardass with Barkley and gave Jones the "community chest". It was bad in hindsight. I wanted them to tag Jones 9 months ago.
I'm hoping the Williams trade had picking a future QB planned behind the scenes.
...the four wideouts who were supposed to form the heart of the receiving corps – Kenny Golladay, Kadarius Toney, Sterling Shepard, Wan’Dale Robinson – either flamed out or got hurt. The coaches continually had to adjust on the fly, finally finding a run-centric RPO style that seemed to suit Jones well and make reads simpler for him.
I know this offense is extremely difficult for receivers to learn. Look at what Hodgins said about it. Why is it that we always assume the adjusted offense was to simplify reads for DJ as much as simplifying reads/routes/options for the new receivers? This position is regularly stated and accepted as fact among Giants fans and analysts, but it seems to lack actual evidence to back it up, and to me it just seems more likely given the lack of experience @ receiver in the offense that it would be the latter rather than the former.
Love the rest of what you wrote and I think your opinion on this matter is well-reasoned.
However, we need to also come to grips with the fact that these so called wins over team like the commanders and the patriots and to the other extent the Vikings last year continue to make us feel we are better then we really are.
The Cowboys and the Eagles are the bar. Plain and Fucking Simple. The Giants, with Jones or without, are a team that doesn't come close to the bar set by those two teams and we need to stop pretending we are even close. This team doesn't have lines both on offence and defense that can hold up to those teams. I don't give a shit who you march out there at QB, RB, WR, it doesn't matter.
I understand its got to start with QB, but its bigger then that, and what I don't like and I see it both will Dabs and Schoen is that there seems to be this stubbornness or arrogance admitting mistakes. Look at Neal. Schoen's comments in the latest conference are a great example of this guy's stubbornness. I don't want to hear well it took Andrew Thomas 3 years. Neal is a joke at RT. We have maybe one cog on the interior of the OL at this point. That's a fail. Look at the D line. You have Dex and Thibodeaux. That's it, and Thibs despite having 11 sacks this year, disappears at times. What's he done again the Eagles and Cowboy's? AGAIN MESSURE YOUR OUTPUT AND RESULTS AGAINST THE BOYS AND THE EAGLES. That's the line fellas! Hey Coach, Hey GM...YOUR NOT JUST A SNIFF AWAY!
IN fact, we are not even close.
RE: I understand and agree with most points Eric made
However, we need to also come to grips with the fact that these so called wins over team like the commanders and the patriots and to the other extent the Vikings last year continue to make us feel we are better then we really are.
The Cowboys and the Eagles are the bar. Plain and Fucking Simple. The Giants, with Jones or without, are a team that doesn't come close to the bar set by those two teams and we need to stop pretending we are even close. This team doesn't have lines both on offence and defense that can hold up to those teams. I don't give a shit who you march out there at QB, RB, WR, it doesn't matter.
I understand its got to start with QB, but its bigger then that, and what I don't like and I see it both will Dabs and Schoen is that there seems to be this stubbornness or arrogance admitting mistakes. Look at Neal. Schoen's comments in the latest conference are a great example of this guy's stubbornness. I don't want to hear well it took Andrew Thomas 3 years. Neal is a joke at RT. We have maybe one cog on the interior of the OL at this point. That's a fail. Look at the D line. You have Dex and Thibodeaux. That's it, and Thibs despite having 11 sacks this year, disappears at times. What's he done again the Eagles and Cowboy's? AGAIN MESSURE YOUR OUTPUT AND RESULTS AGAINST THE BOYS AND THE EAGLES. That's the line fellas! Hey Coach, Hey GM...YOUR NOT JUST A SNIFF AWAY!
IN fact, we are not even close.
You can't stack teams like it's the 80s any more.
Putting all those pieces in place, and holding them together, is a lot harder.
As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
That should be the final word on Jones until the offseason, but of course it won't be.
I've been a big Jones supporter - possibly a homer - since the first game vs the Bucs, but even I have had to be realistic about the situation this year.
Yes, there are glimpses of greatness. But I feel that whatever greatness he has won't be fully realized until he goes somewhere else. It's been much more disastrous than successful here, and he just might be too broken to succeed here. Yes our O line is a travesty - but it's also just as bad for Taylor and DeVito. Why is it that they're not afraid to uncork it down the field and Jones looks like he's playing against 15 people on defense?
I like Jones a lot and think he can be successful in this league. I'd still love for it to be here in 2024 and I'll root for that. But I admit it's not realistic. A stopgap year with a rookie QB in the wings and then Jones moves on is the most likely outcome and probably best for DJ and the Giants.
More should be discussed on the cap implications of running it back
I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
ThomasG i think "setting the franchise back" comment is more about forcing a QB pick just to pick one.
I wouldn't think Schoen would do that as he's smarter than that. But saying "we have to get a QB, we just have to take one" could backfire immensely if we draft a QB over an edge or WR group, or hell even OL.
Now, it could work out great if the QB is awesome. But Schoen is not going to take a 2nd tier QB in the first round, IMO.
If we know Schoen shouldn't force a bad pick, and you know he knows he shouldn't force a bad pick then this is moot. Yet a lot of posters think this is some value-add concept to add into their respective posts...it's not.
We should be far more concerned the Giants force a bad decision to stay with a non-productive QB like Jones than force a bad decision with a new prospect. Far more.
Taking a step back…that Eric has to pen this about a player going into his SIXTH season in ‘24 kinda says it all. And don’t give me the Simms comps…different era, game, & business.
That sucks that your web browser forces you to open and read threads without you making the conscious decision to do so. Have you tried turning your device off and turning it back on again?
Bar is below the ground.
How do Schoen and Daboll feel about the REST of the roster? If they feel they are "close" then it absolutely makes sense to somehow try and get "their guy" THIS YEAR in the draft.
If they feel they aren't that close after further evaluation - then I would say the strategy of non QB BPA for your first 3 picks might hold.
Not saying they are totally sold on 1 way or the other right now. But that's what it comes down to for me.
Schoen seems to be nailing some of these picks outside of Neal - jury is out on him obviously. I'd wager that if the Giants end up with the 7th pick, they will not fight to the death to move up for a QB.
But at this point, the injuries have rendered the argument moot. Giants need to move forward and, at the very least, get a young QB to groom. Jones will be here next year because of financial reasons. Even if he plays great, he is IMO only one injury away from a career ender. And until this OL is fixed, the probability of that is high.
Can DeVito be that guy? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd draft one of the top 3 QBs (Williams, Maye, Daniels (my favorite)), or if they are gone, get one in the 2nd round or trade up in the 1st. IMO it's a no-brainer at this point.
Jones cut/traded by the beginning of 2025 season, unless there is a miraculous turnaround. Draft pick and Devito to start 2025 season
Just because of stature and looks.
But at this point, the injuries have rendered the argument moot. Giants need to move forward and, at the very least, get a young QB to groom. Jones will be here next year because of financial reasons. Even if he plays great, he is IMO only one injury away from a career ender. And until this OL is fixed, the probability of that is high.
Can DeVito be that guy? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd draft one of the top 3 QBs (Williams, Maye, Daniels (my favorite)), or if they are gone, get one in the 2nd round or trade up in the 1st. IMO it's a no-brainer at this point.
Jones cut/traded by the beginning of 2025 season, unless there is a miraculous turnaround. Draft pick and Devito to start 2025 season
Agree with this. Never have been as down on Jones as some but it does not matter now with the neck injuries. Still not sold on DeVito as anything other than a feel good story. Would like to see the Giants draft BPA high this year and try to move back up into the late first round for one of the QBs just below the top 2. This team is so far from complete that just drafting a QB is not going to be the solution. Need at least 2 OL, one DL and likely a TE and S, assuming they lose McKinney.
How do Schoen and Daboll feel about the REST of the roster? If they feel they are "close" then it absolutely makes sense to somehow try and get "their guy" THIS YEAR in the draft.
If they feel they aren't that close after further evaluation - then I would say the strategy of non QB BPA for your first 3 picks might hold.
Not saying they are totally sold on 1 way or the other right now. But that's what it comes down to for me.
Schoen seems to be nailing some of these picks outside of Neal - jury is out on him obviously. I'd wager that if the Giants end up with the 7th pick, they will not fight to the death to move up for a QB.
I agree with your take and to me it’s also do I think Schoen and Daboll are right the guys? I do, and will trust they make the right decisions.
Thing is for me, I don’t see how people can think they’re the right guys but question just about every move. If someone isn’t in the Schoen/Daboll camp I’ve got no problems with their opinions or questioning the moves. It’s the ones who want it both ways I have trouble understanding. Ones who say they’re the right guys but pick them apart every chance they get.
I guess what I’m saying is we’re either all in with them or we’re not. If they’re the guys, trust they’ll get the QB situation right. Whether they draft one, trade for one, sign a vet or still see something in Jones. For me they’re the ones on the inside and I trust they’re the most knowledgeable and informed about it.
Jones is not the answer for all the reasons Eric and others have intelligently
articulated. I see Jones as a place setter for the next QB they draft this year.
Who that will be is above my pay grade. I've seen all the possible first round candidates play on TV this year and lukewarm about all of them.
They have to get one in the first two rounds even if not one of them is a lock to become the franchise QB. DJ is a warrior but at best he is just an average quarterback who I don't believe is capable of leading the team to a Super Bowl win. Schoen and Daboll have to get it right or we are in for many more years of lousy football
If you can't sell success, you have to sell hope.
Well done.
It doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks because it is out of our control. The Giants will remain in business irrespective of the decision.
It doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks because it is out of our control. The Giants will remain in business irrespective of the decision.
I have read this comment several times. How does trying something new at QB set the franchise back?
Maybe if we mortgage a ton of future picks to get a guy. But reality is this franchise can't be set back much lower anyway. We don't score and because of it we don't win enough games to be competitive in the division. We are nowhere.
There's middle ground in the evaluation of his ability.
There's no desperation for picking a QB. IF a decent candidate is staring you in the face on draft day, it would be foolish to pass him up. Whatever power influenced his contract will still support him, but that support has to have diminished this season. There's no point rooting for a team that is not ready to upgrade. But, not taking one doesn't mean the Giants brass/owners are sold on Jones. The cost to move up may be prohibitive, or there may not be a good enough candidate at our original draft spot. No point drafting another Jones just to draft one (I call that the true Go Terps option-take somebody...anybody). That's throwing away a draft pick, or not maximizing talent acquisition. Similar sentiment, but lower cost for taking a flier on a late first, or second round, QB. I think you move up if necessary to get a top choice, but not at any cost.
Too early for this conversation. It's possible that Devito will be on par with a second tier draft candidate by the end of the season if he keeps progressing. This could make him the flier QB, or the gap QB until we're in a better position to draft a replacement. We don't know the draft order, or the QB prospect order.
After 10 years of poor football the fans would have never went for us moving on from him after not only making the playoffs, but winning a game, so Schoen/Daboll were almost forced to resign him. Add on top of that the fact that our draft position took away the ability to draft a future franchise guy and the FA options such as Carr, weren't options I'd throw long term money at either.
So Jones playing well in 2022 left Schoen in a bad place. He almost had to resign him, but nothing about the contract signaled to me that he was really all that committed to him. As Eric said, the right move would have been to franchise Jones and overpay Saquon, but something tells me that given the players in question, it is likely Mara had some involvement/say in how these negotiations went down.
In Schoen's mind, I think the contract was to give them 2 more years to find "their guy" expecting Jones at least plays adequately. I don't think anyone, including myself, expected how fast things would go downhill to start the season.
With that being said, Joe no longer has 2 more years to replace him, we need someone in place, at least developing, next season. And while I do think by cleaning up the OL and adding a weapon Jones would be an average and capable starter, the fact that he's only made 1 full season out of 5 is the number 1 reason I'd move on from him. You need the leader of your team to be there every week, Jones has not shown he can do that.
As far as I'm concerned its DeVito's team for the rest of the year. And next season will be about developing someone we draft to be our next franchise guy. Jones role with the team going forward will be no more than that of a placeholder if whoever we draft is "developmental". Hopefully he plays well enough in this role to where someone will offer us some draft capital for him after the season.
Seeing an undrafted rookie FA QB come in and play better than your 5th year starting QB making $40M per year is enough evidence that it’s time to move on from Jones. And DeVito has an even worse group to play with than Jones had considering Waller has been out, additional injuries on the line, etc.
Honest question. If Jones were fully healthy right now who would you rather have out there against GB? Remember, it’s a prime time game which I believe Jones has never won. I would rather see DeVito out there myself. I just don’t trust Jones can get the job done.
2. If #1 is unattainable, draft another QB in the first 3 rounds to create competition in camp.
3. Let DJ recover and hopefully be the best and most expensive backup next year.
4. Re-evaluate where we are at QB (and rest of roster) after 2024 season ends.
George Young said a QB "gives your franchise hope".
Seeing an undrafted rookie FA QB come in and play better than your 5th year starting QB making $40M per year is enough evidence that it’s time to move on from Jones. And DeVito has an even worse group to play with than Jones had considering Waller has been out, additional injuries on the line, etc.
Honest question. If Jones were fully healthy right now who would you rather have out there against GB? Remember, it’s a prime time game which I believe Jones has never won. I would rather see DeVito out there myself. I just don’t trust Jones can get the job done.
Beat the Redskins last year, but I see your point.
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of this debate. My guess is there will be no winner. It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss or build the roster prioritizing the lines.
It doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks because it is out of our control. The Giants will remain in business irrespective of the decision.
I have read this comment several times. How does trying something new at QB set the franchise back?
Maybe if we mortgage a ton of future picks to get a guy. But reality is this franchise can't be set back much lower anyway. We don't score and because of it we don't win enough games to be competitive in the division. We are nowhere.
yeah I mean seriously - are we saying it can get worse?
I left the Jones side after the Rams game in 2021(?). Awful game. I have had enough of the blank stares at defenses.
I begrudgingly returned midway through last season when it looked like Daboll was getting through to him.
After the Eagles debacle, I started to get uneasy.
Felt better after camp and the one series he played in pre-season
Then reality....
Aside from the 2nd half of the Cardinals game it has been pure crap. The Seattle game was the coup de grace. All the evils reared their ugliness in plain view. A game there for the taking and a rookie DB played Jones like a fool.
No, IMV, Jones should be replaced and gotten rid of ASAP. A new QB (even if Bo Nix in the 2nd) is needed. Someone that can read a defense and get the ball out quickly to defeat the rush/blitz.
I've "tangled" with Terps and bw enough to know I was wrong.
So John Mara (or Bob Papa) if you are reading - do not fight Joe Schoen when he says it is time for a new QB, even if it costs next years #1 to move up. You well remember the plane over Giants Stadium in 1978....it may soon be making another flight!
I will admit to laughing at loud at that one, and then feeling ashamed for doing so.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
I wouldn't think Schoen would do that as he's smarter than that. But saying "we have to get a QB, we just have to take one" could backfire immensely if we draft a QB over an edge or WR group, or hell even OL.
Now, it could work out great if the QB is awesome. But Schoen is not going to take a 2nd tier QB in the first round, IMO.
But at this point, the injuries have rendered the argument moot. Giants need to move forward and, at the very least, get a young QB to groom. Jones will be here next year because of financial reasons. Even if he plays great, he is IMO only one injury away from a career ender. And until this OL is fixed, the probability of that is high.
Can DeVito be that guy? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd draft one of the top 3 QBs (Williams, Maye, Daniels (my favorite)), or if they are gone, get one in the 2nd round or trade up in the 1st. IMO it's a no-brainer at this point.
Jones cut/traded by the beginning of 2025 season, unless there is a miraculous turnaround. Draft pick and Devito to start 2025 season
Yep!
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
I agree. Team has mostly drafted based on "need" and it has backfired. Schoen took Thibodeaux where not a lot of mocks or even fans had him on the radar for our pick at 5. As it turns out, aside from Sauce Gardner and Garrett Wilson (QB driven performance) you could argue he's the best pick from that draft thus far.
it was in the history section and that is a pretty sucint history.
i think in general there's a lot of emotion wrapped up in the jones saga but it's still the same simple equation it was in 2022 when they were obviously willing to move on declining the 5yo. when they see a better option they will take it.
the only question is if they see a better option when they are on clock. there wasnt in 2022. i think 2024 will be different.
[quote I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones. [/quote]
I don't get this.
Is Philly and Dallas going to set the standard and keep playing at that level for five more years with no decline?
Unlikely.
I'm hoping the Williams trade had picking a future QB planned behind the scenes.
I know this offense is extremely difficult for receivers to learn. Look at what Hodgins said about it. Why is it that we always assume the adjusted offense was to simplify reads for DJ as much as simplifying reads/routes/options for the new receivers? This position is regularly stated and accepted as fact among Giants fans and analysts, but it seems to lack actual evidence to back it up, and to me it just seems more likely given the lack of experience @ receiver in the offense that it would be the latter rather than the former.
Love the rest of what you wrote and I think your opinion on this matter is well-reasoned.
The Cowboys and the Eagles are the bar. Plain and Fucking Simple. The Giants, with Jones or without, are a team that doesn't come close to the bar set by those two teams and we need to stop pretending we are even close. This team doesn't have lines both on offence and defense that can hold up to those teams. I don't give a shit who you march out there at QB, RB, WR, it doesn't matter.
I understand its got to start with QB, but its bigger then that, and what I don't like and I see it both will Dabs and Schoen is that there seems to be this stubbornness or arrogance admitting mistakes. Look at Neal. Schoen's comments in the latest conference are a great example of this guy's stubbornness. I don't want to hear well it took Andrew Thomas 3 years. Neal is a joke at RT. We have maybe one cog on the interior of the OL at this point. That's a fail. Look at the D line. You have Dex and Thibodeaux. That's it, and Thibs despite having 11 sacks this year, disappears at times. What's he done again the Eagles and Cowboy's? AGAIN MESSURE YOUR OUTPUT AND RESULTS AGAINST THE BOYS AND THE EAGLES. That's the line fellas! Hey Coach, Hey GM...YOUR NOT JUST A SNIFF AWAY!
IN fact, we are not even close.
The Cowboys and the Eagles are the bar. Plain and Fucking Simple. The Giants, with Jones or without, are a team that doesn't come close to the bar set by those two teams and we need to stop pretending we are even close. This team doesn't have lines both on offence and defense that can hold up to those teams. I don't give a shit who you march out there at QB, RB, WR, it doesn't matter.
I understand its got to start with QB, but its bigger then that, and what I don't like and I see it both will Dabs and Schoen is that there seems to be this stubbornness or arrogance admitting mistakes. Look at Neal. Schoen's comments in the latest conference are a great example of this guy's stubbornness. I don't want to hear well it took Andrew Thomas 3 years. Neal is a joke at RT. We have maybe one cog on the interior of the OL at this point. That's a fail. Look at the D line. You have Dex and Thibodeaux. That's it, and Thibs despite having 11 sacks this year, disappears at times. What's he done again the Eagles and Cowboy's? AGAIN MESSURE YOUR OUTPUT AND RESULTS AGAINST THE BOYS AND THE EAGLES. That's the line fellas! Hey Coach, Hey GM...YOUR NOT JUST A SNIFF AWAY!
IN fact, we are not even close.
You can't stack teams like it's the 80s any more.
Putting all those pieces in place, and holding them together, is a lot harder.
Or you can get the right QB.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
I've been a big Jones supporter - possibly a homer - since the first game vs the Bucs, but even I have had to be realistic about the situation this year.
Yes, there are glimpses of greatness. But I feel that whatever greatness he has won't be fully realized until he goes somewhere else. It's been much more disastrous than successful here, and he just might be too broken to succeed here. Yes our O line is a travesty - but it's also just as bad for Taylor and DeVito. Why is it that they're not afraid to uncork it down the field and Jones looks like he's playing against 15 people on defense?
I like Jones a lot and think he can be successful in this league. I'd still love for it to be here in 2024 and I'll root for that. But I admit it's not realistic. A stopgap year with a rookie QB in the wings and then Jones moves on is the most likely outcome and probably best for DJ and the Giants.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
I wouldn't think Schoen would do that as he's smarter than that. But saying "we have to get a QB, we just have to take one" could backfire immensely if we draft a QB over an edge or WR group, or hell even OL.
Now, it could work out great if the QB is awesome. But Schoen is not going to take a 2nd tier QB in the first round, IMO.
If we know Schoen shouldn't force a bad pick, and you know he knows he shouldn't force a bad pick then this is moot. Yet a lot of posters think this is some value-add concept to add into their respective posts...it's not.
We should be far more concerned the Giants force a bad decision to stay with a non-productive QB like Jones than force a bad decision with a new prospect. Far more.
That sucks that your web browser forces you to open and read threads without you making the conscious decision to do so. Have you tried turning your device off and turning it back on again?
Watch him throw, and I’m not just walking about the release. His mechanics right now are not NFL caliber.