I think most of us would happily debate whether the Vikings playoff win was a building block towards a better future or a one off nice achievement.
Is anyone willing to take the position of the former?
With the benefit of hindsight it's clearly a one off. In January of 2023, it was probably a building block with 98% of BBI. The board was holding their breath that Kafka wouldn't go to Arizona and Martindale wouldn't go to Indy. There were a lot of "arrow is pointing up" posts and "close the gap" - I'll raise my hand as well.
I think if you told BBI on January 15th even after the Eagle loss, the Giants would be sitting at 4-8 with a glaring need at QB and Daboll & Wink fighting, most would be shocked.
Unfortunately the organization plans to improve the team around him to get that type of performance against the better D's didn't pan out in the games he was able to play this year.
AT being hurt and SB in the second game certainly didn't help. Maybe some were happy with the back up RB's and what they did at LT. Neal looked to make great strides....
Well, John-if need be-needs to remember this is a business and the goal is to win. You can’t be sentimental about a dude who has no pelts on the wall. Be sentimental about Eli? I get that. Daniel Jones? No.
Throughout the movie they cite the number one rule of poker: Fold your cards the minute you know they can’t win. I think that was the spirit of Eric’s column. We’re at a poker table with the Cowboys and Eagles and just keep doubling down on Jones and Saquon while their stacks of chips reach the rafters. At some point we have to fold and play a different hand.
Agree on the view on 2022. I loved the build up to the game and the game itself vs. Minnesota. It felt good to care about Giants football for a few weeks, even after the second half collapse to the season.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
Agree on the view on 2022. I loved the build up to the game and the game itself vs. Minnesota. It felt good to care about Giants football for a few weeks, even after the second half collapse to the season.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
💯
It's troubling for many to consider the possibility that last year was the Giants' version of winning playoff games with Blake Bortles or Case Keenum.
Well, John-if need be-needs to remember this is a business and the goal is to win. You can’t be sentimental about a dude who has no pelts on the wall. Be sentimental about Eli? I get that. Daniel Jones? No.
I agree 100% - it's a business first.
But any good manager will tell you that it's hard to let go of people that want to be good at their jobs, put in the time to be good at their jobs, say and do all the right thing for the company .... BUT ultimately fail to produce results.
The Giants were a victim of their own incompetence
There is a good chance the Giants aren't sitting in this mess. But, since they were so incredibly bad, they've really leaned into it as a building block. "The Giants are back."
Its one game folks. I dont know why this Viking game seems to be the only game that matters for some.
Btw- you should probably remember how extraordinary fortunate to draw the Minnesota Vikings instead of the San Francisco 49ers. People would do well to remember how virtually everyone felt that the Vikings were the only team that the giants could beat.
Agree on the view on 2022. I loved the build up to the game and the game itself vs. Minnesota. It felt good to care about Giants football for a few weeks, even after the second half collapse to the season.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
💯
It's troubling for many to consider the possibility that last year was the Giants' version of winning playoff games with Blake Bortles or Case Keenum.
The first two games after Minnesota:
Philly: 38-7 loss
Dallas: 40-0 loss
So it was:
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
Indeed. Look, credit to Jones for executing. Dabka put him in a position to succeed, the Vikings struggled with assignments, and Jones delivered. That's worth something (not $160M, but I digressed).
But playing D was the Achilles heel of the Vikings all of 2022. And many of the 18 QBs they played exploited it.
Haven't been around all that long but this has to be the most bizarre thread I have followed. Its like the Giants can't do two things at once. On the one hand, Schoen said he expects Jones to be the starter next year, but he also made it clear that they'll be exploring all the options to get some insurance and upgrade the position. Its called keeping your options open and why some people will go on almost absurd lengths to insist on closing down one option when it costs nothing to keep it open is beyond and they don't have any other options in place.
What it really comes down to is we have two very different seasons to work with. In 2022 the Jones and the Giants overachieved (at least based on expectations) and this year in which they have clearly underachieved. Which one was the mirage? Truth is nobody knows for sure. Is Jones good enough to win a Super Bowl. Who knows! Who thought in 2006 when the Giants lost 6 of their final 8 games to miss the playoffs after starting 6-2 that Eli would be good enough to win 2 titles; who thought in 1983 after the Giants went 3-11-1 and Simms failed to finish another season that they'd win a Super Bowl just 3 years later. And Jones was certainly good enough to get a rather rag-tag bunch into the playoffs last year and once you get to the playoffs, well who knows.
People want football to be rational, logical, linear but most of the time it isn't. Its random, its ad hoc, its unpredictable and the one thing you wnat to do, and its what the Giants appear to be trying to do, is keep as many options open to them as possible.
Do you have a problem with the Arizona game? Do you recall Sy's review of the OL play? I hope just about everyone says it was a very good day for Jones here.
What was different about those games compared to the Minny game and every one of the games they won last season?
That is DJ's season. I'm not going to over analyze any QB coming off a three week injury in a QTR and a couple plays. You can if you choose to.
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
Is afraid of Jones being given a chance to start in 2024.
You are afraid that he will do well.
If you knew he would fail, you would not show so much emotion in this debate.
It’s OK
They been wrong for so long, might as well drive off the cliff.
Funny thing is, the true best case scenario is jones playing well enough for someone to take his contract. but even that delicious cap space and a golden ticket couldn't disengage them from their obsessions.
Have they? I think I’ve been pretty spot on on Jones and Gettleman.
Agree on the view on 2022. I loved the build up to the game and the game itself vs. Minnesota. It felt good to care about Giants football for a few weeks, even after the second half collapse to the season.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
Let me give you some potential examples of things that went well against the Vikings.
- Jones was the team's leading rusher with 78 yards and 7 first downs
- Jones was incredibly efficient completing 24 passes with an outstanding first down rate of 40%
- Though his intended air yards per attempt was below 6 yards
Are those a few of the things you wanted the Giants to carry over?
Haven't been around all that long but this has to be the most bizarre thread I have followed. Its like the Giants can't do two things at once. On the one hand, Schoen said he expects Jones to be the starter next year, but he also made it clear that they'll be exploring all the options to get some insurance and upgrade the position. Its called keeping your options open and why some people will go on almost absurd lengths to insist on closing down one option when it costs nothing to keep it open is beyond and they don't have any other options in place.
What it really comes down to is we have two very different seasons to work with. In 2022 the Jones and the Giants overachieved (at least based on expectations) and this year in which they have clearly underachieved. Which one was the mirage? Truth is nobody knows for sure. Is Jones good enough to win a Super Bowl. Who knows! Who thought in 2006 when the Giants lost 6 of their final 8 games to miss the playoffs after starting 6-2 that Eli would be good enough to win 2 titles; who thought in 1983 after the Giants went 3-11-1 and Simms failed to finish another season that they'd win a Super Bowl just 3 years later. And Jones was certainly good enough to get a rather rag-tag bunch into the playoffs last year and once you get to the playoffs, well who knows.
People want football to be rational, logical, linear but most of the time it isn't. Its random, its ad hoc, its unpredictable and the one thing you wnat to do, and its what the Giants appear to be trying to do, is keep as many options open to them as possible.
Otherwise people are just screaming at the moon.
Just hope if the draft falls QB they pull the trigger and have the grit to pull a Kenny Golladay with Jones if that is how the production/depth chart falls.
Either Daniel Jones was responsible for the victory over the Vikings as well as the beat down from the Eagles, or the Giants were responsible for the victory over the Vikings as well as the bear down from the Eagles.
You can't claim Jones won the Vikings game and then the Giants lost the Eagles game. That is logically and intellectually dishonest.
either still hold out hope that Jones is THE guy, or that he was THE guy but now the injuries have derailed him...
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
The notion that Jones is/was a proxy for Gettleman devotees namong the majority of fans, is, frankly, an absurdity. I doubt you could find a handful of fans who were or are favorably disposed to Jones who also were secrely pining away for the days of Dave Gettleman. It's a ridiculous assertion.
Clatter...
There have been people this year (albeit before the start of the season, who were claiming that DG did a "great job of building the foundation of this team", then they would go on to praise Jones, Barkley, Dex, Thomas, Williams, McKinney and Ojulari...
The people who made these claims are the same people who are still die hard Jones supporters.
It ain't hard to do the math.
I doubt you could find a handful of fans who were or are favorably disposed to Jones who also were secrely pining away for the days of Dave Gettleman. It's a ridiculous assertion.
I can't recall FMIC's position on Jones but I would not be surprised if he was a considerable Jones guy as a hometown kid, and the other one was mr "you've got to wait and see and let it play out" with Gettleman himself, Ryanmkeane. You can find him in any Jones thread.
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
No one said it was. The point is Jones isn't good and the team decided to pay him a big contract a year before a great QB draft.
If that hasn't happened this coming offseason would be cut and dry.
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
Sure would be nice if you were so passionate about this whenever the Jones fan boys keep giving him all the credit for the wins and blaming the team for the embarrassing losses. There was literally a post on one of the other threads that claimed Jones “dragged a bad team to the playoffs last season”. The same posters give Jones all the credit for beating Minnesota. Then turn around and completely dissolve him of any blame for what happened in Philly. Or any other game they lose. Only THEN does it become a “team game”…
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
Sure would be nice if you were so passionate about this whenever the Jones fan boys keep giving him all the credit for the wins and blaming the team for the embarrassing losses. There was literally a post on one of the other threads that claimed Jones “dragged a bad team to the playoffs last season”. The same posters give Jones all the credit for beating Minnesota. Then turn around and completely dissolve him of any blame for what happened in Philly. Or any other game they lose. Only THEN does it become a “team game”…
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Again with road playoff win. It's a wild card game against a 3 seed. Who played above their heads and had a lousy defense. You want to pretend it was an historic victory, fine. The rest of the league thought it was no big deal and the Giants got unceremoniously thumped the next week. How many years do you want to squander on a guy who is not the answer at the most important position. Because we can waste a decade doing this if you really want to.
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
Scooter can you read. That's not what I said at all. I said he gives the Giants the best chance to win going forward. Are you honestly going to tell me that either Tommy DeVito or Taylor would give the Giants a better chance to make the playoffs (if that's the best they can) next year. Give me a break. Taylor hasn't won a game literally since the AFL was around and DeVito just won a couple of games against two of the worst teams in the league, one where the Giants gave him 6 turnovers and the other against arguably the worst team in the league in which the Giants were a +2 and still only scored 10 points.
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
Scooter can you read. That's not what I said at all. I said he gives the Giants the best chance to win going forward. Are you honestly going to tell me that either Tommy DeVito or Taylor would give the Giants a better chance to make the playoffs (if that's the best they can) next year. Give me a break. Taylor hasn't won a game literally since the AFL was around and DeVito just won a couple of games against two of the worst teams in the league, one where the Giants gave him 6 turnovers and the other against arguably the worst team in the league in which the Giants were a +2 and still only scored 10 points.
The offense looked better under TT and hasn't looked worse under TD. If Jones isn't the best QB on the Giants this year how can he be the one who gives them the best chance next year?
For the record I don't want any of the 3 starting next year unless it's as a fill in for injury
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
I totally agree with you but forget it man. These threads will always be 1000 miles long with these guys just digging in and want to talk about Jones Jones Jones. It is what it is. I have trouble not responding as well... lol. If you defend Jones at all or bring up the fact that the coaching and rest of the team were a big part of the problem, you just get labeled as an excuse maker and a DJFC member. lol. Because, you know, like the team and coaching are totally on par with the Eagles and Philly. It's just the QB position! It's holding us back!
The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
What they showed was that they had pieces to work with if they got better than below average QB play.
There's a big, big gap between "true elite QB" and what you've gotten from Jones for 60+ starts, and it's not at all worth biting your nails in fear of losing such ability.
The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
What they showed was that they had pieces to work with if they got better than below average QB play.
There's a big, big gap between "true elite QB" and what you've gotten from Jones for 60+ starts, and it's not at all worth biting your nails in fear of losing such ability.
It's insane really. Afraid to part with such a mediocre talent. Setting back our progress to continue to evaluate this obviously limited player. We waste years on the low probability outcome that he can win a championship. He's been outplayed this season by a journeyman and an undrafted rookie. What more do these people need to see?
For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
I totally agree with you but forget it man. These threads will always be 1000 miles long with these guys just digging in and want to talk about Jones Jones Jones. It is what it is. I have trouble not responding as well... lol. If you defend Jones at all or bring up the fact that the coaching and rest of the team were a big part of the problem, you just get labeled as an excuse maker and a DJFC member. lol. Because, you know, like the team and coaching are totally on par with the Eagles and Philly. It's just the QB position! It's holding us back!
LOL
DJ derangement syndrome. Some serious mental illness up in here. And they will outlast you. They wear those astronaut diapers so they don’t have to leave the keyboard and miss an opportunity to repeat themselves. Word.
DJ derangement syndrome. Some serious mental illness up in here. And they will outlast you. They wear those astronaut diapers so they don’t have to leave the keyboard and miss an opportunity to repeat themselves. Word.
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
thing with that crew who just trashes Jones w/o any consideration to all the variables around him that did have a big impact this season is that they don't even understand how the position works imv. To not even acknowledge the reality of what the situation was in most of the games he played this season is pretty weak imv.
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.
But he’s never going to be an elite QB. And he’s about to enter his sixth season. I think it’s fair to assume he is who he is at this point.
Wish the kid luck. But ready to move on and go find an elite QB.
This is what makes it so hard to move on.
You're saying it, I've said - and we don't even know the guy personally.
I'm sure if we did it would make it ssssooooo easy to give him "just one more shot at it".
Is anyone willing to take the position of the former?
With the benefit of hindsight it's clearly a one off. In January of 2023, it was probably a building block with 98% of BBI. The board was holding their breath that Kafka wouldn't go to Arizona and Martindale wouldn't go to Indy. There were a lot of "arrow is pointing up" posts and "close the gap" - I'll raise my hand as well.
I think if you told BBI on January 15th even after the Eagle loss, the Giants would be sitting at 4-8 with a glaring need at QB and Daboll & Wink fighting, most would be shocked.
AT being hurt and SB in the second game certainly didn't help. Maybe some were happy with the back up RB's and what they did at LT. Neal looked to make great strides....
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
💯
It's troubling for many to consider the possibility that last year was the Giants' version of winning playoff games with Blake Bortles or Case Keenum.
The first two games after Minnesota:
Philly: 38-7 loss
Dallas: 40-0 loss
I agree 100% - it's a business first.
But any good manager will tell you that it's hard to let go of people that want to be good at their jobs, put in the time to be good at their jobs, say and do all the right thing for the company .... BUT ultimately fail to produce results.
2017: 3-13
2018: 5-11
2019: 4-12
2020: 6-10
2021: 4-13
There is a good chance the Giants aren't sitting in this mess. But, since they were so incredibly bad, they've really leaned into it as a building block. "The Giants are back."
What were some of the specifics from the Vikings game you thought the Giants should carry over to 2023?
In a playoff game
Its one game folks. I dont know why this Viking game seems to be the only game that matters for some.
Btw- you should probably remember how extraordinary fortunate to draw the Minnesota Vikings instead of the San Francisco 49ers. People would do well to remember how virtually everyone felt that the Vikings were the only team that the giants could beat.
Quote:
Agree on the view on 2022. I loved the build up to the game and the game itself vs. Minnesota. It felt good to care about Giants football for a few weeks, even after the second half collapse to the season.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
💯
It's troubling for many to consider the possibility that last year was the Giants' version of winning playoff games with Blake Bortles or Case Keenum.
The first two games after Minnesota:
Philly: 38-7 loss
Dallas: 40-0 loss
So it was:
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
Indeed. Look, credit to Jones for executing. Dabka put him in a position to succeed, the Vikings struggled with assignments, and Jones delivered. That's worth something (not $160M, but I digressed).
But playing D was the Achilles heel of the Vikings all of 2022. And many of the 18 QBs they played exploited it.
What it really comes down to is we have two very different seasons to work with. In 2022 the Jones and the Giants overachieved (at least based on expectations) and this year in which they have clearly underachieved. Which one was the mirage? Truth is nobody knows for sure. Is Jones good enough to win a Super Bowl. Who knows! Who thought in 2006 when the Giants lost 6 of their final 8 games to miss the playoffs after starting 6-2 that Eli would be good enough to win 2 titles; who thought in 1983 after the Giants went 3-11-1 and Simms failed to finish another season that they'd win a Super Bowl just 3 years later. And Jones was certainly good enough to get a rather rag-tag bunch into the playoffs last year and once you get to the playoffs, well who knows.
People want football to be rational, logical, linear but most of the time it isn't. Its random, its ad hoc, its unpredictable and the one thing you wnat to do, and its what the Giants appear to be trying to do, is keep as many options open to them as possible.
Otherwise people are just screaming at the moon.
Dallas opening day?
SF?
Seattle?
Miami?
Do you have a problem with the Arizona game? Do you recall Sy's review of the OL play? I hope just about everyone says it was a very good day for Jones here.
What was different about those games compared to the Minny game and every one of the games they won last season?
That is DJ's season. I'm not going to over analyze any QB coming off a three week injury in a QTR and a couple plays. You can if you choose to.
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
Let's try again. You said the Vikings game was a building block. What were some of the things that happened in the Vikings game you liked?
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Is afraid of Jones being given a chance to start in 2024.
You are afraid that he will do well.
If you knew he would fail, you would not show so much emotion in this debate.
It’s OK
They been wrong for so long, might as well drive off the cliff.
Funny thing is, the true best case scenario is jones playing well enough for someone to take his contract. but even that delicious cap space and a golden ticket couldn't disengage them from their obsessions.
Have they? I think I’ve been pretty spot on on Jones and Gettleman.
But imagine if this was Jacksonville and not the Giants being discussed. If they had made the playoffs at 9-7-1 after starting 7-2, won a playoff game against Houston, and then got obliterated the following week by Kansas City, the view would be "nice season, but nothing special."
Because it was the Giants and a QB they are passionate about, it was heroic and inspirational. The bias is off the charts.
Well said Mike
- Jones was the team's leading rusher with 78 yards and 7 first downs
- Jones was incredibly efficient completing 24 passes with an outstanding first down rate of 40%
- Though his intended air yards per attempt was below 6 yards
Are those a few of the things you wanted the Giants to carry over?
What it really comes down to is we have two very different seasons to work with. In 2022 the Jones and the Giants overachieved (at least based on expectations) and this year in which they have clearly underachieved. Which one was the mirage? Truth is nobody knows for sure. Is Jones good enough to win a Super Bowl. Who knows! Who thought in 2006 when the Giants lost 6 of their final 8 games to miss the playoffs after starting 6-2 that Eli would be good enough to win 2 titles; who thought in 1983 after the Giants went 3-11-1 and Simms failed to finish another season that they'd win a Super Bowl just 3 years later. And Jones was certainly good enough to get a rather rag-tag bunch into the playoffs last year and once you get to the playoffs, well who knows.
People want football to be rational, logical, linear but most of the time it isn't. Its random, its ad hoc, its unpredictable and the one thing you wnat to do, and its what the Giants appear to be trying to do, is keep as many options open to them as possible.
Otherwise people are just screaming at the moon.
Just hope if the draft falls QB they pull the trigger and have the grit to pull a Kenny Golladay with Jones if that is how the production/depth chart falls.
Not bad...huh? ;)
bw in dc : 8/28/2022 9:42 pm : link
with Carolina, Chicago, Jax, Seattle, Houston and Detroit.
And I still think the NFCE is up for grabs for a variety of reasons. Does any team really scare you?
With 5 wins against those six non-division opponents, there just may be a way to get to another 4 or 5.
So, I'm going 9-8. And 10-7 is not impossible...
You can't claim Jones won the Vikings game and then the Giants lost the Eagles game. That is logically and intellectually dishonest.
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Just to pepper in some facts, here's what most of thought going into 2022. Link - ( New Window )
Not bad...huh? ;)
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There are six very winnable non-division games...
bw in dc : 8/28/2022 9:42 pm : link
with Carolina, Chicago, Jax, Seattle, Houston and Detroit.
And I still think the NFCE is up for grabs for a variety of reasons. Does any team really scare you?
With 5 wins against those six non-division opponents, there just may be a way to get to another 4 or 5.
So, I'm going 9-8. And 10-7 is not impossible...
And how'd you do this year Nostradamus?
And how'd you do this year Nostradamus?
Right now, it looks like Nostradamus take a major step backwards...
I'm hoping DeVito can salvage me.
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And how'd you do this year Nostradamus?
Right now, it looks like Nostradamus take a major step backwards...
I'm hoping DeVito can salvage me.
Haha, me too Bw in DC. Having a cutlet sandwich tonight to keep this hot streak going!
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either still hold out hope that Jones is THE guy, or that he was THE guy but now the injuries have derailed him...
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
The notion that Jones is/was a proxy for Gettleman devotees namong the majority of fans, is, frankly, an absurdity. I doubt you could find a handful of fans who were or are favorably disposed to Jones who also were secrely pining away for the days of Dave Gettleman. It's a ridiculous assertion.
Clatter...
There have been people this year (albeit before the start of the season, who were claiming that DG did a "great job of building the foundation of this team", then they would go on to praise Jones, Barkley, Dex, Thomas, Williams, McKinney and Ojulari...
The people who made these claims are the same people who are still die hard Jones supporters.
It ain't hard to do the math.
I doubt you could find a handful of fans who were or are favorably disposed to Jones who also were secrely pining away for the days of Dave Gettleman. It's a ridiculous assertion.
I can't recall FMIC's position on Jones but I would not be surprised if he was a considerable Jones guy as a hometown kid, and the other one was mr "you've got to wait and see and let it play out" with Gettleman himself, Ryanmkeane. You can find him in any Jones thread.
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So it was:
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
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In comment 16310173 Johnny5 said:
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So it was:
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
No one said it was. The point is Jones isn't good and the team decided to pay him a big contract a year before a great QB draft.
If that hasn't happened this coming offseason would be cut and dry.
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In comment 16310173 Johnny5 said:
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So it was:
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
Sure would be nice if you were so passionate about this whenever the Jones fan boys keep giving him all the credit for the wins and blaming the team for the embarrassing losses. There was literally a post on one of the other threads that claimed Jones “dragged a bad team to the playoffs last season”. The same posters give Jones all the credit for beating Minnesota. Then turn around and completely dissolve him of any blame for what happened in Philly. Or any other game they lose. Only THEN does it become a “team game”…
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In comment 16310201 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16310173 Johnny5 said:
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So it was:
Philly defeat Daniel Jones?
Cowboys defeat Daniel Jones?
Hmm, it looked liked it was THE GIANTS that were defeated in thos games. I'm so silly.
I won't speak for Terps, but this post reminds me of so many DJ-supporters who credit DJ for the Giants' wins, but somehow have many more opinions of his teammates' play when the Giants lose.
It's a team game in both scenarios, or it's on DJ in both.
It's a TEAM Game. Period. I don't give a shit about Jones. If you don't see the roster deficiencies (well and coaching issues this season) I don't know what else to say. Except stop focusing so much on ONE position. This team is bad. It's not JUST because of the QB position.
Sure would be nice if you were so passionate about this whenever the Jones fan boys keep giving him all the credit for the wins and blaming the team for the embarrassing losses. There was literally a post on one of the other threads that claimed Jones “dragged a bad team to the playoffs last season”. The same posters give Jones all the credit for beating Minnesota. Then turn around and completely dissolve him of any blame for what happened in Philly. Or any other game they lose. Only THEN does it become a “team game”…
Ugh. ABSOLVE him of any blame. Stupid phone
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
Again with road playoff win. It's a wild card game against a 3 seed. Who played above their heads and had a lousy defense. You want to pretend it was an historic victory, fine. The rest of the league thought it was no big deal and the Giants got unceremoniously thumped the next week. How many years do you want to squander on a guy who is not the answer at the most important position. Because we can waste a decade doing this if you really want to.
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For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
Scooter can you read. That's not what I said at all. I said he gives the Giants the best chance to win going forward. Are you honestly going to tell me that either Tommy DeVito or Taylor would give the Giants a better chance to make the playoffs (if that's the best they can) next year. Give me a break. Taylor hasn't won a game literally since the AFL was around and DeVito just won a couple of games against two of the worst teams in the league, one where the Giants gave him 6 turnovers and the other against arguably the worst team in the league in which the Giants were a +2 and still only scored 10 points.
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In comment 16310372 Snorkels said:
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For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
Jones being the best QB on the team this year is debatable
Scooter can you read. That's not what I said at all. I said he gives the Giants the best chance to win going forward. Are you honestly going to tell me that either Tommy DeVito or Taylor would give the Giants a better chance to make the playoffs (if that's the best they can) next year. Give me a break. Taylor hasn't won a game literally since the AFL was around and DeVito just won a couple of games against two of the worst teams in the league, one where the Giants gave him 6 turnovers and the other against arguably the worst team in the league in which the Giants were a +2 and still only scored 10 points.
The offense looked better under TT and hasn't looked worse under TD. If Jones isn't the best QB on the Giants this year how can he be the one who gives them the best chance next year?
For the record I don't want any of the 3 starting next year unless it's as a fill in for injury
I totally agree with you but forget it man. These threads will always be 1000 miles long with these guys just digging in and want to talk about Jones Jones Jones. It is what it is. I have trouble not responding as well... lol. If you defend Jones at all or bring up the fact that the coaching and rest of the team were a big part of the problem, you just get labeled as an excuse maker and a DJFC member. lol. Because, you know, like the team and coaching are totally on par with the Eagles and Philly. It's just the QB position! It's holding us back!
LOL
What they showed was that they had pieces to work with if they got better than below average QB play.
There's a big, big gap between "true elite QB" and what you've gotten from Jones for 60+ starts, and it's not at all worth biting your nails in fear of losing such ability.
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The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
What they showed was that they had pieces to work with if they got better than below average QB play.
There's a big, big gap between "true elite QB" and what you've gotten from Jones for 60+ starts, and it's not at all worth biting your nails in fear of losing such ability.
It's insane really. Afraid to part with such a mediocre talent. Setting back our progress to continue to evaluate this obviously limited player. We waste years on the low probability outcome that he can win a championship. He's been outplayed this season by a journeyman and an undrafted rookie. What more do these people need to see?
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For the record, there are no Daniel Jones 'fan-boys.' There are Giants fans who think that given the current circumstances he still gives them the best chance to win games. And nobody but nobody is giving credit to Jones for wins but not blaming him for losses. That's a strawman you guys have created in your own minds. The Giants won ten games including a road playoff game over the #2 seed in the conference which showed they can win games with Jones. That we got hammered by the Eagles showed we still have work to do. And yeah it would be great to have a true elite QB, but they are really hard to find you don't the best guy you have until you have something better.
I totally agree with you but forget it man. These threads will always be 1000 miles long with these guys just digging in and want to talk about Jones Jones Jones. It is what it is. I have trouble not responding as well... lol. If you defend Jones at all or bring up the fact that the coaching and rest of the team were a big part of the problem, you just get labeled as an excuse maker and a DJFC member. lol. Because, you know, like the team and coaching are totally on par with the Eagles and Philly. It's just the QB position! It's holding us back!
LOL
DJ derangement syndrome. Some serious mental illness up in here. And they will outlast you. They wear those astronaut diapers so they don’t have to leave the keyboard and miss an opportunity to repeat themselves. Word.
DJ derangement syndrome. Some serious mental illness up in here. And they will outlast you. They wear those astronaut diapers so they don’t have to leave the keyboard and miss an opportunity to repeat themselves. Word.
I must admit. That was very funny.
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The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
Mostly.
As in except for QB and probably RB.
Excellent article. Perfectly summed it up.
5 years with only one barely flash in the pan season to show for it is far too low below the pale.
Jones is done.
In four of the little more than 5 games he played this season it was some pretty unfavorable conditions and that would be for any QB.