I'm ready for Jones to be off the roster and move on. He's had a long rope here, he's gotten to work with three coaching staffs. He's been paid very well.
He's not good enough. In the year where he had his career year, he only threw 15 TD's. That doesn't warrant $40m per year.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
On all of these highlights I’m seeing and throws I’m watching for Daniels, he almost has zero push from his lower body on these throws. Watch it carefully. His legs and base are tiny, and he’s putting all of his “throw” with his arm. Which is what others have said on his scouting report.
Which is why, in my opinion, he does not have the ability to make all the throws in the NFL. Having a quick release is great. That means nothing to me. His mechanics and power are so off and he’s a long way away, IMO.
I appreciate your thoughtful post on this, Ryan.
My response would be that I think you're viewing something as a weakness that might actually be a strength. The very nature of that quick release might be rooted in a throwing motion that appears to be entirely arm-driven and not requiring the base to be fully set with a lower half drive on the ball. Just thinking about having to set his legs and drive from his lower body would require a much longer release, IMO.
That's not intended to dismiss your concern, to be clear. Just that I think the ability to throw with a flick of the wrist and without having to set his lower half is a tremendous strength for a QB, not a liability.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
Caleb Williams is going #1. Daniels will be a top-7 consolation prize, maybe to the Giants.
GD, I agree, I guess it depends on whether or not teams think that it really doesn't matter in terms of Daniels' overall frame.
Because in all honesty - it is the #1 reason why I would not draft him in the first round, but that is just me. I've seen plenty of QBs with his frame get destroyed in the NFL due to running and not be able to hold up over time.
And repeating the Jones mistake. I don't think Gettleman forced the DJ pick (unless you believe he panicked instead of waiting until 17), but rather DG had conviction and picked Jones. That's actually 100% right and what he should have done. The problem is DG and everyone else in scouting at that time was horrible at evaluating talent.
I trust JS to be a better evaluator of talent so I trust him to pick the QB he feels is best.
And repeating the Jones mistake. I don't think Gettleman forced the DJ pick (unless you believe he panicked instead of waiting until 17), but rather DG had conviction and picked Jones. That's actually 100% right and what he should have done. The problem is DG and everyone else in scouting at that time was horrible at evaluating talent.
I trust JS to be a better evaluator of talent so I trust him to pick the QB he feels is best.
manifesto - it would start with the end of Eli's career and have a larger focus on the front office involvement and continued influence on roster making decisions.
I love a good conspiracy :) ... but I honestly think it starts there.
For me, my determination (for whatever it's worth) was watching Taylor and Devito run this offense. When the pocket is collapsing Jones, looks to run. Taylor and Devito have eyes downfield (although Devito will hold the ball if nothing is open and take the sack).
It's time to move on from Jones, after next year of course.
GD, I agree, I guess it depends on whether or not teams think that it really doesn't matter in terms of Daniels' overall frame.
Because in all honesty - it is the #1 reason why I would not draft him in the first round, but that is just me. I've seen plenty of QBs with his frame get destroyed in the NFL due to running and not be able to hold up over time.
It depends on whether GMs think he can bulk up.
Running QBs take a beating in the NFL, without question.
Daniels though has become such a more polished throwing QB this year and relies far more on his arm than a year ago. That is why his passing numbers are off the charts this year, while his rushing hasn't missed a beat in the meanwhile.
His trajectory as a dynamic passer, who can also be a dangerous runner, is why you draft him. Not the reverse.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
It also doesn't mean that we ignore the Eagles playoff game or the previous 4 years...as a whole he has had 1 good year, 3 bad years and his rookie season that appeared to be a psoitive if 18 fumbles and 12 INTs in 12 games is good.
GD, I agree, I guess it depends on whether or not teams think that it really doesn't matter in terms of Daniels' overall frame.
Because in all honesty - it is the #1 reason why I would not draft him in the first round, but that is just me. I've seen plenty of QBs with his frame get destroyed in the NFL due to running and not be able to hold up over time.
It depends on whether GMs think he can bulk up.
The NFL is about talent. If you have the talent, the best coaching on the planet can help with any mechanic adjustments as long as the player is amenable to coaching.
I think what's going on here with Daniels is how much he popped this year after being a prospect that was likely a day three prospect. So, it's sort of stunning people. But we've seen this before with guys like Burrow.
And he didn't do this is the Conference USA, the Sunbelt Conference or the Mountain West Conference. It's the best competition in America - the SEC.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
What if we say it another way, and I think someone else on here made this point a few days ago:
2022 does count, but we've seen DJ have success before when he's operating in ways that teams haven't seen before. We saw it when he was a rookie and there was no NFL tape on him, and we saw it in 2022 when there was no tape on him in Daboll/Kafka's offense. And what we've also seen is that the league adjusts to his success much more quickly than he adjusts to their adjustments. DJ's success has now twice been followed by a crash back to earth.
What DJ and the Giants did in 2022 matters, but it matters less than 2023 because 2023 is the current point that we're working from going forward. And the ability to adapt to opponents taking away what worked for him in the past is something we have not seen happen with DJ.
So, unless and until we get new evidence to the contrary, how can anyone be certain that 2023 isn't the beginning of a repeat of 2020/2021? It was pretty obvious right from the opener this year that the Cowboys were prepared for a heavy dose of play-action, for example - they were ignoring the play fake and rushing DJ as though it was a regular dropback. We knew that the Giants used playaction more than almost any other team in 2022, and that was a big part of DJ's success. So when that was taken away, what was DJ's next move going to be? This year, there wasn't one. And there are plenty of excuses that might be valid. But this isn't a one-off scenario, IMO - the league seems to catch up to DJ and then he struggles without the cheat codes.
For me, my determination (for whatever it's worth) was watching Taylor and Devito run this offense. When the pocket is collapsing Jones, looks to run. Taylor and Devito have eyes downfield (although Devito will hold the ball if nothing is open and take the sack).
It's time to move on from Jones, after next year of course.
I agree with all that is said ... However what if Jones makes the adjustment about keeping his eyes down field vs tuck and run to go into scramble mode AND his eyes are still scanning. Jones sitting on the sideline watching can let him see his errors much easier. He is a hard worker that is willing to change and grow.
lots of things here are true and some of the truths contradict others
the 5th year option was the right call. But then Schoen/Daboll would have to hear that they got their jobs becuase they agreed to keep Jones. Had they done that, 1) Jones would had to have shown progress and health for 2 years before getting a new deal. No 1 year fluke would do it 2) it would have been cheap and 3) it would be done after this year with no cap implications.
he is what he is. An avg QB with good athleticism and work ethic with a 11-16 ceiling, 17-22 floor. Not bad, not great.
going forward, they have to get a QB because even if they loved him as a QB, he's had 2 serious neck injuries and an ACL. They can't risk the success of the franchise on that.
bw, again I would recommend to ease up on using stats as the measure for college QBs.
I'm not that guy. But the production matches up with the talent. The explosion Daniels has when he hits the accelerator to run is elite for a QB. Just a high end turn of foot.
As for his throwing, the release and ability to make off schedule plays jump of the screen.
Hope and optimism are not a good plan, especially when there's a mountain evidence against it. Find the courage to rip off the bandaid and move forward.
But he wasn’t given that. The incompetence of the FO over the prior two regimes was epic. And the injuries may have been equally as bad. Perfect storm of incompetence and bad luck. Unbelievable.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
What if we say it another way, and I think someone else on here made this point a few days ago:
2022 does count, but we've seen DJ have success before when he's operating in ways that teams haven't seen before. We saw it when he was a rookie and there was no NFL tape on him, and we saw it in 2022 when there was no tape on him in Daboll/Kafka's offense. And what we've also seen is that the league adjusts to his success much more quickly than he adjusts to their adjustments. DJ's success has now twice been followed by a crash back to earth.
What DJ and the Giants did in 2022 matters, but it matters less than 2023 because 2023 is the current point that we're working from going forward. And the ability to adapt to opponents taking away what worked for him in the past is something we have not seen happen with DJ.
So, unless and until we get new evidence to the contrary, how can anyone be certain that 2023 isn't the beginning of a repeat of 2020/2021? It was pretty obvious right from the opener this year that the Cowboys were prepared for a heavy dose of play-action, for example - they were ignoring the play fake and rushing DJ as though it was a regular dropback. We knew that the Giants used playaction more than almost any other team in 2022, and that was a big part of DJ's success. So when that was taken away, what was DJ's next move going to be? This year, there wasn't one. And there are plenty of excuses that might be valid. But this isn't a one-off scenario, IMO - the league seems to catch up to DJ and then he struggles without the cheat codes.
and chronology on Jone's career.
What I've been harping about, is everything BEFORE this year is no longer relevant.
The organization HAS to be in a different place regarding him, because of the 2nd neck injury and ACL.
Going forward with him (long term) WILL get these two fired.
If he gets injured (seriously) again next year (and history says he WILL), then the betting odds are that Mara won't trust them anymore and we get to start over- again.
Its bad to be in a position to have to force a QB pick, but here we are- again!
I just really don't understand the intense focus on the QB. This team is not close. This team has not been close for 12 years.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
So intense because a couple of individuals are trying change people’s minds. Sell out the franchise to get anybody but Jones. One person believes we should draft 3 QBs. Some of us have other outside interests. I wonder if this debate will continue until next May.
RE: lots of things here are true and some of the truths contradict others
the 5th year option was the right call. But then Schoen/Daboll would have to hear that they got their jobs becuase they agreed to keep Jones. Had they done that, 1) Jones would had to have shown progress and health for 2 years before getting a new deal. No 1 year fluke would do it 2) it would have been cheap and 3) it would be done after this year with no cap implications.
he is what he is. An avg QB with good athleticism and work ethic with a 11-16 ceiling, 17-22 floor. Not bad, not great.
going forward, they have to get a QB because even if they loved him as a QB, he's had 2 serious neck injuries and an ACL. They can't risk the success of the franchise on that.
Great post, bottom line is we need to turn the page. Good writeup Eric. Focus now should be on whether Tommy Touchdown can be a viable low cost backup.
RE: one point Eric made that rises above all others
"whether they realize it or not, Schoen and Daboll will be on thin ice in 2024.".
They BETTER realize it. And gambling on Jones health/ growth is not exactly job security.
Blueworm, mentioned if something along the lines of "if you can't market success, market hope".
That's exactly WHY they should move on NOW. Move heaven and earth to draft a new QB. It buys you more good will AND time from ownership.
If they put all their chips with Jones and he flames out (which is what his career has been up until now), then are likely gone after next season.
Do they really want to take that chance?
There's a reason why they are HEAVILLY scouting this QB class, putting a lot of time AND resources into it.
I would be SHOCKED if they don't take a QB at #1 and if it means using draft capital to get in position, so be it!
Why would they be on thin ice? Mara was involved with the Jones contract. This was discussed. They can draft the replacement in 2025.
I just really don't understand the intense focus on the QB. This team is not close. This team has not been close for 12 years.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
Were the Giants close in 2004 when they traded up giving up multiple draft picks including their 2004 and 2005 1st round picks for Eli Manning? That team was a bigger dumpster fire than this one yet they went out and traded all that for a franchise QB.
Were the Texans considered "close" going into this season? They were projected to finish with a likely top 5 pick and yet Stroud has elevated the entire franchise. QB is the most important position in football and as we have seen numerous times they can mask a lot of holes on the roster.
I just really don't understand the intense focus on the QB. This team is not close. This team has not been close for 12 years.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
So intense because a couple of individuals are trying change people’s minds. Sell out the franchise to get anybody but Jones. One person believes we should draft 3 QBs. Some of us have other outside interests. I wonder if this debate will continue until next May.
This argument is basically saying that no QB matters, the rest of the roster is the only determining factor.
Someone should alert the NFL because it seems like most teams are just pissing away massive money on guys that are passengers on the roster.
RE: RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
He is a bust, and busts have zero trade value. Look at Lance. Absolutely no advantage to NYG. On the other hand, I can’t imagine a smart QB would want to end up in CHI or AZ over NY. Definitely think there is room for some Eli draft type gamesmanship if that is the case.
Given the high picks in the 2024 draft, and the prospects available, there may be no better time to get their next QB. It's fluid and might not align either, of course.
They could draft the wrong QB again, there's no protection against it. But, they need to admit the QB mistake and move off it, otherwise this franchise is stuck in the mud. This decision precedes any other roster decision, no matter all the other holes.
RE: RE: RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
I've generally been supportive of Jones. I still think he can play in this league under the right circumstances but I don't think those circumstances will ever be in place in time for him here. I think it's time to move on and for no other reason than the injuries, especially the neck injuries, that, at best, can take away an important part of his game -- running -- and at worst, could end his career in a heartbeat.
I would have liked to see what Jones could have done with a consistently competent offensive line in front of him. I've read and listened to a lot of commentary about Jones' reluctance to take down-field shots, to throw to certain areas of the field, not taking advantage of opportunities. They can't all be wrong. I've also read comments here about how good QBs compensate for bad O-lines. Maybe so. But imo, no QB could have performed well with the offensive line play at the beginning of this season. It was football malpractice. The O line is still bad but not nearly as bad as it was in Sept. and Oct. and Tommy DeVito is very fortunate in this regard.
So, I'm in with the time to move on contingent. I hope Schoen was being careful with his comments about drafting a QB. If he and Daboll believe their Josh Allen is available at the top of this draft, I hope they go and get him instead of settling for a second or third tier player. I also hope they can solve the Evan Neal enigma and/or find a competent right tackle in free agency that can either start or provide quality depth.
It also wouldn't shock me that somewhere down the line, a healthy Daniel Jones winds up playing QB at a high level for another team. I think John Mara is right. The Giants did screw the kid up and I hope he gets a real second chance somewhere else.
The point of the article is the risk to the front office/coaching staff of making the wrong choice.
I think they understand unless you don’t trust the GM and Coach. If that is true then they should not be running the draft. A few people are beating the drums that we have get the best QB no matter what the cost. I believe they are in the the minority but keep the debate going.
I am convinced that Jones is a practice warrior, kind of the anti-Tim Tebow. I think that Gettlemen and Shurmur and Judge and Garrett and Shoen and Daboll all believed in him at some point is because in practice, he looks so good that everyone thinks they can get him to do it on the field. Unfortunately, for the most part, it just hasn't happened.
If DJ's rehab does not allow him to start the season. Could the team reach an injury settlement with him and lessen the CAP impact?
As an example: "DJ, we have no plans to have you start now or in the future, we'll give you 40M to go away and then you can go and try to get picked up by another team"
I don't understand exactly how an injury settlement works in regard to the CAP, or if it is even worth it
One could argue there was, in fact, a noticeable difference in the offense when Taylor or DeVito have played. It may not be a very good offense, but it has been better with them under center this year, than Jones. You are correct, though. It is very damning.
As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
And, which one, or more, of those SEC teams has a defense as good as the worst defensive team in the NFL?
Comparing the NFL to college is like comparing apples to oranges (or better yet, lemons).
If Devito, Jones, and Taylor were all healthy right now and you needed a win to save your job, who's starting? To me its honestly close and I'm leaning towards Devito or Taylor. To me that is very very telling.
And that's not even considering his contract or injuries. It's time to move on and I can't even fathom how that is debatable.
I don't care how nice he is or how hard he works. I need a QB that can produce touchdowns. He hasn't proven he can.
One could argue there was, in fact, a noticeable difference in the offense when Taylor or DeVito have played. It may not be a very good offense, but it has been better with them under center this year, than Jones. You are correct, though. It is very damning.
After years of being told by a segment of fans that the Giants couldn't possibly find someone better than Jones, via draft or FA.
In the Draft for no other reason than the uncertainty of Daniel Jones’ long-term health. And for those who think he’s a below-grade QB, you can add that reason as well.
But I find all the negative feelings about Daniel Jones somewhat odd for a very simple reason: You may feel he’s a big part of the problem, but I 100% believe this entire franchise, this entire team and — to name just one unit — the epic 12-year fail of the offensive line are so much more deserving of criticism. Daniel Jones is a distant second to all that mess.
He's not good enough. In the year where he had his career year, he only threw 15 TD's. That doesn't warrant $40m per year.
The culture of excuses is so tiring.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
On all of these highlights I’m seeing and throws I’m watching for Daniels, he almost has zero push from his lower body on these throws. Watch it carefully. His legs and base are tiny, and he’s putting all of his “throw” with his arm. Which is what others have said on his scouting report.
Which is why, in my opinion, he does not have the ability to make all the throws in the NFL. Having a quick release is great. That means nothing to me. His mechanics and power are so off and he’s a long way away, IMO.
I appreciate your thoughtful post on this, Ryan.
My response would be that I think you're viewing something as a weakness that might actually be a strength. The very nature of that quick release might be rooted in a throwing motion that appears to be entirely arm-driven and not requiring the base to be fully set with a lower half drive on the ball. Just thinking about having to set his legs and drive from his lower body would require a much longer release, IMO.
That's not intended to dismiss your concern, to be clear. Just that I think the ability to throw with a flick of the wrist and without having to set his lower half is a tremendous strength for a QB, not a liability.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
Quote:
As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
Caleb Williams is going #1. Daniels will be a top-7 consolation prize, maybe to the Giants.
Because in all honesty - it is the #1 reason why I would not draft him in the first round, but that is just me. I've seen plenty of QBs with his frame get destroyed in the NFL due to running and not be able to hold up over time.
It depends on whether GMs think he can bulk up.
I trust JS to be a better evaluator of talent so I trust him to pick the QB he feels is best.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
You do realize the majority of those defenses are awful? Its not the same SEC as it was 5-10 years ago... lol
Who else in the SEC is putting up something even remotely similar to JD's production?
JD's numbers are mind boggling.
I trust JS to be a better evaluator of talent so I trust him to pick the QB he feels is best.
+1
I love a good conspiracy :) ... but I honestly think it starts there.
It's time to move on from Jones, after next year of course.
Because in all honesty - it is the #1 reason why I would not draft him in the first round, but that is just me. I've seen plenty of QBs with his frame get destroyed in the NFL due to running and not be able to hold up over time.
It depends on whether GMs think he can bulk up.
Running QBs take a beating in the NFL, without question.
Daniels though has become such a more polished throwing QB this year and relies far more on his arm than a year ago. That is why his passing numbers are off the charts this year, while his rushing hasn't missed a beat in the meanwhile.
His trajectory as a dynamic passer, who can also be a dangerous runner, is why you draft him. Not the reverse.
Quote:
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
It also doesn't mean that we ignore the Eagles playoff game or the previous 4 years...as a whole he has had 1 good year, 3 bad years and his rookie season that appeared to be a psoitive if 18 fumbles and 12 INTs in 12 games is good.
Because in all honesty - it is the #1 reason why I would not draft him in the first round, but that is just me. I've seen plenty of QBs with his frame get destroyed in the NFL due to running and not be able to hold up over time.
It depends on whether GMs think he can bulk up.
The NFL is about talent. If you have the talent, the best coaching on the planet can help with any mechanic adjustments as long as the player is amenable to coaching.
I think what's going on here with Daniels is how much he popped this year after being a prospect that was likely a day three prospect. So, it's sort of stunning people. But we've seen this before with guys like Burrow.
And he didn't do this is the Conference USA, the Sunbelt Conference or the Mountain West Conference. It's the best competition in America - the SEC.
Quote:
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
What if we say it another way, and I think someone else on here made this point a few days ago:
2022 does count, but we've seen DJ have success before when he's operating in ways that teams haven't seen before. We saw it when he was a rookie and there was no NFL tape on him, and we saw it in 2022 when there was no tape on him in Daboll/Kafka's offense. And what we've also seen is that the league adjusts to his success much more quickly than he adjusts to their adjustments. DJ's success has now twice been followed by a crash back to earth.
What DJ and the Giants did in 2022 matters, but it matters less than 2023 because 2023 is the current point that we're working from going forward. And the ability to adapt to opponents taking away what worked for him in the past is something we have not seen happen with DJ.
So, unless and until we get new evidence to the contrary, how can anyone be certain that 2023 isn't the beginning of a repeat of 2020/2021? It was pretty obvious right from the opener this year that the Cowboys were prepared for a heavy dose of play-action, for example - they were ignoring the play fake and rushing DJ as though it was a regular dropback. We knew that the Giants used playaction more than almost any other team in 2022, and that was a big part of DJ's success. So when that was taken away, what was DJ's next move going to be? This year, there wasn't one. And there are plenty of excuses that might be valid. But this isn't a one-off scenario, IMO - the league seems to catch up to DJ and then he struggles without the cheat codes.
It's time to move on from Jones, after next year of course.
I agree with all that is said ... However what if Jones makes the adjustment about keeping his eyes down field vs tuck and run to go into scramble mode AND his eyes are still scanning. Jones sitting on the sideline watching can let him see his errors much easier. He is a hard worker that is willing to change and grow.
the 5th year option was the right call. But then Schoen/Daboll would have to hear that they got their jobs becuase they agreed to keep Jones. Had they done that, 1) Jones would had to have shown progress and health for 2 years before getting a new deal. No 1 year fluke would do it 2) it would have been cheap and 3) it would be done after this year with no cap implications.
he is what he is. An avg QB with good athleticism and work ethic with a 11-16 ceiling, 17-22 floor. Not bad, not great.
going forward, they have to get a QB because even if they loved him as a QB, he's had 2 serious neck injuries and an ACL. They can't risk the success of the franchise on that.
I'm not that guy. But the production matches up with the talent. The explosion Daniels has when he hits the accelerator to run is elite for a QB. Just a high end turn of foot.
As for his throwing, the release and ability to make off schedule plays jump of the screen.
1.) their rookie year
AND
2.) their contract year
You cannot just look at stats and assume that the player is going to be awesome in the pros.
You do realize that Hooker was injured and just had his first NFL practice yesterday? Was he supposed to win the starting job while on IR?
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"A game there for the taking and a rookie DB played Jones like a fool." -didn't quote it properly, credit author
The rookie DB who didn't know to keep his mouth shut:
"We knew he liked to stare down his first target."
I've only heard that about QBs who have not succeeded at this level, like Brady Quinn.
The Eagles DBs said the same thing last year after the playoff game.
Why should he keep his mouth shut. He ate Jones' lunch.
Well, decorum, mostly.
But, I wouldn't broadcast weaknesses of opponents -exploit them- but don't let everyone, including them know. They might work on it.
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In comment 16308627 The Mike said:
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Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
What if we say it another way, and I think someone else on here made this point a few days ago:
2022 does count, but we've seen DJ have success before when he's operating in ways that teams haven't seen before. We saw it when he was a rookie and there was no NFL tape on him, and we saw it in 2022 when there was no tape on him in Daboll/Kafka's offense. And what we've also seen is that the league adjusts to his success much more quickly than he adjusts to their adjustments. DJ's success has now twice been followed by a crash back to earth.
What DJ and the Giants did in 2022 matters, but it matters less than 2023 because 2023 is the current point that we're working from going forward. And the ability to adapt to opponents taking away what worked for him in the past is something we have not seen happen with DJ.
So, unless and until we get new evidence to the contrary, how can anyone be certain that 2023 isn't the beginning of a repeat of 2020/2021? It was pretty obvious right from the opener this year that the Cowboys were prepared for a heavy dose of play-action, for example - they were ignoring the play fake and rushing DJ as though it was a regular dropback. We knew that the Giants used playaction more than almost any other team in 2022, and that was a big part of DJ's success. So when that was taken away, what was DJ's next move going to be? This year, there wasn't one. And there are plenty of excuses that might be valid. But this isn't a one-off scenario, IMO - the league seems to catch up to DJ and then he struggles without the cheat codes.
good observation
Josh Allen played at Wyoming.
Joe Burrow played in the SEC and he had Chase as his #1 WR.
What I've been harping about, is everything BEFORE this year is no longer relevant.
The organization HAS to be in a different place regarding him, because of the 2nd neck injury and ACL.
Going forward with him (long term) WILL get these two fired.
If he gets injured (seriously) again next year (and history says he WILL), then the betting odds are that Mara won't trust them anymore and we get to start over- again.
Its bad to be in a position to have to force a QB pick, but here we are- again!
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
So intense because a couple of individuals are trying change people’s minds. Sell out the franchise to get anybody but Jones. One person believes we should draft 3 QBs. Some of us have other outside interests. I wonder if this debate will continue until next May.
the 5th year option was the right call. But then Schoen/Daboll would have to hear that they got their jobs becuase they agreed to keep Jones. Had they done that, 1) Jones would had to have shown progress and health for 2 years before getting a new deal. No 1 year fluke would do it 2) it would have been cheap and 3) it would be done after this year with no cap implications.
he is what he is. An avg QB with good athleticism and work ethic with a 11-16 ceiling, 17-22 floor. Not bad, not great.
going forward, they have to get a QB because even if they loved him as a QB, he's had 2 serious neck injuries and an ACL. They can't risk the success of the franchise on that.
Great post, bottom line is we need to turn the page. Good writeup Eric. Focus now should be on whether Tommy Touchdown can be a viable low cost backup.
They BETTER realize it. And gambling on Jones health/ growth is not exactly job security.
Blueworm, mentioned if something along the lines of "if you can't market success, market hope".
That's exactly WHY they should move on NOW. Move heaven and earth to draft a new QB. It buys you more good will AND time from ownership.
If they put all their chips with Jones and he flames out (which is what his career has been up until now), then are likely gone after next season.
Do they really want to take that chance?
There's a reason why they are HEAVILLY scouting this QB class, putting a lot of time AND resources into it.
I would be SHOCKED if they don't take a QB at #1 and if it means using draft capital to get in position, so be it!
Why would they be on thin ice? Mara was involved with the Jones contract. This was discussed. They can draft the replacement in 2025.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
Were the Giants close in 2004 when they traded up giving up multiple draft picks including their 2004 and 2005 1st round picks for Eli Manning? That team was a bigger dumpster fire than this one yet they went out and traded all that for a franchise QB.
Were the Texans considered "close" going into this season? They were projected to finish with a likely top 5 pick and yet Stroud has elevated the entire franchise. QB is the most important position in football and as we have seen numerous times they can mask a lot of holes on the roster.
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I just really don't understand the intense focus on the QB. This team is not close. This team has not been close for 12 years.
He is going to be here rehabbing and on the roster for 2024. I really don't see him here after that, so I just don't think it matters all that much concerning him.
This team... T-E-A-M ... is a dumpster fire. I don't see us competing with Dallas or Philly for at least the next 5 years. At this point, I don't even care about Daniel Jones.
So intense because a couple of individuals are trying change people’s minds. Sell out the franchise to get anybody but Jones. One person believes we should draft 3 QBs. Some of us have other outside interests. I wonder if this debate will continue until next May.
This argument is basically saying that no QB matters, the rest of the roster is the only determining factor.
Someone should alert the NFL because it seems like most teams are just pissing away massive money on guys that are passengers on the roster.
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It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss
How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
They could draft the wrong QB again, there's no protection against it. But, they need to admit the QB mistake and move off it, otherwise this franchise is stuck in the mud. This decision precedes any other roster decision, no matter all the other holes.
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In comment 16308413 joe48 said:
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It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss
How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
You literally just said if you miss on a high QB draft pick, it will really set the franchise back. How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
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In comment 16308588 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16308413 joe48 said:
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It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss
How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
You literally just said if you miss on a high QB draft pick, it will really set the franchise back. How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
Four years so far.
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In comment 16308413 joe48 said:
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It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss
How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
No one has said it's the QB only. Cease. And, you're free to skip these threads.
I would have liked to see what Jones could have done with a consistently competent offensive line in front of him. I've read and listened to a lot of commentary about Jones' reluctance to take down-field shots, to throw to certain areas of the field, not taking advantage of opportunities. They can't all be wrong. I've also read comments here about how good QBs compensate for bad O-lines. Maybe so. But imo, no QB could have performed well with the offensive line play at the beginning of this season. It was football malpractice. The O line is still bad but not nearly as bad as it was in Sept. and Oct. and Tommy DeVito is very fortunate in this regard.
So, I'm in with the time to move on contingent. I hope Schoen was being careful with his comments about drafting a QB. If he and Daboll believe their Josh Allen is available at the top of this draft, I hope they go and get him instead of settling for a second or third tier player. I also hope they can solve the Evan Neal enigma and/or find a competent right tackle in free agency that can either start or provide quality depth.
It also wouldn't shock me that somewhere down the line, a healthy Daniel Jones winds up playing QB at a high level for another team. I think John Mara is right. The Giants did screw the kid up and I hope he gets a real second chance somewhere else.
However, this is bigger than Jones.
The point of the article is the risk to the front office/coaching staff of making the wrong choice.
I think they understand unless you don’t trust the GM and Coach. If that is true then they should not be running the draft. A few people are beating the drums that we have get the best QB no matter what the cost. I believe they are in the the minority but keep the debate going.
As an example: "DJ, we have no plans to have you start now or in the future, we'll give you 40M to go away and then you can go and try to get picked up by another team"
I don't understand exactly how an injury settlement works in regard to the CAP, or if it is even worth it
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As we get closer to draft time, i think we will have a much clearer picture on the Williams/Maye vs everyone else debate. Daniels is the hot name right now but I really don't think he'll be viewed as a top 10 prospect when all is said and done.
The QB for LSU has 50 total TDs in the SEC. The SEC where he's lit up Alabama, Florida, Ole Miss, Mizzu, Miss St, Auburn, Texas A&M.
That's 40 TDs passing and 10 rushing TDs. Just think about that production.
Daniels is a brilliant dual-threat prospect. I expect him to go #1.
And, which one, or more, of those SEC teams has a defense as good as the worst defensive team in the NFL?
Comparing the NFL to college is like comparing apples to oranges (or better yet, lemons).
And that's not even considering his contract or injuries. It's time to move on and I can't even fathom how that is debatable.
I don't care how nice he is or how hard he works. I need a QB that can produce touchdowns. He hasn't proven he can.
After years of being told by a segment of fans that the Giants couldn't possibly find someone better than Jones, via draft or FA.
In the Draft for no other reason than the uncertainty of Daniel Jones’ long-term health. And for those who think he’s a below-grade QB, you can add that reason as well.
But I find all the negative feelings about Daniel Jones somewhat odd for a very simple reason: You may feel he’s a big part of the problem, but I 100% believe this entire franchise, this entire team and — to name just one unit — the epic 12-year fail of the offensive line are so much more deserving of criticism. Daniel Jones is a distant second to all that mess.