I like DJ as a person, but as my QB going forward...the guy that needs to beat the big boys, consecutive weeks in the playoffs and the big game....I don't see it.
But I agree with the consensus here.....which of the college QB's gives us that best chance, can play in NY and elevate the rest of the team's play.
We have to get this right or it's continued frustration. The Eagles pivoted quickly off Wentz to Hurts. We can't seem to do that well. Hopefully Schoen proves me wrong.
Jay - Texans were in a bit of a different circumstance because they had the #2 overall pick.
If Giants have the #2 overall pick in 2024 which they likely will not, it would be an obvious outcome to take Williams or Maye depending on who was there.
and then add the QB. Has anyone watched the Browns fighting for dear life with the literal number one defense in the league? The Seahawks, who have been praised for their solid roster building, falling apart once Geno started playing subpar? The Steelers and their dull-as-dishwater mirage season?
The QB either starts the project or is part of the project from the start. Otherwise you are simply wasting the time of everyone else on the roster. Teams that succeed with below-average QB play are a rarity, and the examples of roster building then QB - the Bucs adding Brady and the Rams adding Stafford - are not realistic equivalent options right now. And with regards to the Cowboys and Niners: both Purdy and Dak are good QBs. Are they great? Maybe not, but both teams would struggle with bottom 3rd QB play.
RE: RE: RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
What will set the Giants back further if they decide to pass on a QB in the draft and commit to Jones yet again. Daboll will be fired and they will have yet another coaching change which will then cause the remaining Jones supporters to claim that he should get the 2025 season to prove himself under his 4th HC.
That was an excellent way of laying out the facts without ryan or terps level bias.
Having said that, I don't know how you can read that and think "maybe Jones should be the guy in 2024." Jones has had a thousand chances to show what he can do - even with a hideously mismanaged roster, and it isn't much. This roster is still a couple of years from competing with Dallas and Philadelphia. I can't see any scenario where running it back with Jones for 2-3 years makes any sense. This guy is not going somewhere else and turning into Tom Brady. Maybe he goes somewhere else and becomes Joe Flacco.
Schoen made a mistake signing Jones to the extension that he did. The question for him now is can he recognize the mistake and do something to mitigate it, or will we just start Jones next year and act surprised when he plays like Daniel Jones?
Jay - Texans were in a bit of a different circumstance because they had the #2 overall pick.
If Giants have the #2 overall pick in 2024 which they likely will not, it would be an obvious outcome to take Williams or Maye depending on who was there.
Yes but 3 QB's went in the top 5. Young has struggled mightily but he is in an incredibly tough situation because his weapons are among the worst in the NFL. Stroud is having the best season of a rookie QB in NFL history. Hell even Anthony Richardson looked great until his injury. Richardson's stats in college were very bad and he was expected to need a year on the bench but he performed surprisingly well. This year there are three QB's I would love to see the Giants draft and if they pass on any of them then I will lose alot of faith in the FO.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
If you can't see at this point, given what we have now seen in 2023 from Tyrod and DeVito, that 2022 was simply Daboll masterminding a remedial scheme to account for DJ's limitations, then you still don't get it and probably never will. Denial is a powerful thing.
DJ beat three good teams last year. The Ravens beat themselves, the Jaguars had a terrible start who only rebounded in November after we beat them, and the Vikings were arguably the worst defense to ever host a playoff game. The Eagles playoff game should have been the tell that the league had figured out how to effectively scheme against Daboll's approach.
Schoen missed it. Big mistake. Pivot quickly now. Get DJ's replacement in April.
Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
What if we say it another way, and I think someone else on here made this point a few days ago:
2022 does count, but we've seen DJ have success before when he's operating in ways that teams haven't seen before. We saw it when he was a rookie and there was no NFL tape on him, and we saw it in 2022 when there was no tape on him in Daboll/Kafka's offense. And what we've also seen is that the league adjusts to his success much more quickly than he adjusts to their adjustments. DJ's success has now twice been followed by a crash back to earth.
What DJ and the Giants did in 2022 matters, but it matters less than 2023 because 2023 is the current point that we're working from going forward. And the ability to adapt to opponents taking away what worked for him in the past is something we have not seen happen with DJ.
So, unless and until we get new evidence to the contrary, how can anyone be certain that 2023 isn't the beginning of a repeat of 2020/2021? It was pretty obvious right from the opener this year that the Cowboys were prepared for a heavy dose of play-action, for example - they were ignoring the play fake and rushing DJ as though it was a regular dropback. We knew that the Giants used playaction more than almost any other team in 2022, and that was a big part of DJ's success. So when that was taken away, what was DJ's next move going to be? This year, there wasn't one. And there are plenty of excuses that might be valid. But this isn't a one-off scenario, IMO - the league seems to catch up to DJ and then he struggles without the cheat codes.
a)great summary
b) the Haskins flopped/killed line - I spit out my coffee
c) I'm a tired fan (67 y/o been watching since I was 5 sitting in front of the old b/w tv set with my dad)
time to move on from Jones. Period.
RE: More should be discussed on the cap implications of running it back
I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
RE: RE: More should be discussed on the cap implications of running it back
I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
Agreed. And perhaps the most important reason why they have to get a top tier quarterback from the 2024 draft....
between his ears. Jones succeeded in 2022 when a very basic offense was designed for Jones that leaned heavily on his legs and not on his passing. If the league outlawed the forward pass for 2024, I would keep Jones. If they played the 2022 Minnesota Vikings defense every week in 2024, I would also keep Jones. He can succeed long term in those limited circumstances.
But the league is a passing league, and he is simply not smart enough to run a complex offense, read defenses, and not get baited into game changing plays by rookies. I am not saying he is not a smart guy, he undoubtedly is. But is football IQ and processing time are not even NFL average. The game is moving as quickly for him now as it did his rookie year.
I would love for the Giants to be opening up the playbook for the next QB to read a defense and then attack it, not be limited to one-read throws and bootleg runs.
“We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up since he’s been here.” --John Mara
Question: Does this explain why the Giants gave Jones an extension? If one assumes this is a Mara defense, then it follows that Mara had definite input into the decision to enter into a negotiation with Jones. Furthermore, as Eric points out, it seems clear (hindsight is always 20/20) that FT’ing Jones would have been better than Barkley. How many BBI’rs wanted Barkley to be a unrestricted free agent?
“GoTerps Critique”
Question: Does Jones elevate the team in any way shape or form that Eli Manning, Phil Simms or Jeff Hostetler did? As pointed out in the article, it does not matter all the changes in management and coaching staff. Isn’t 5 years of history enough? Frankly, I don’t care if he has great games against poor teams. Look at his record against team that make the playoffs. And let’s be candid and open about the injury situation. Eric is. This QB gets injured often and the injuries are not insignificant. Long term prognosis? Fans ought to be concerned that as Eric pointed out NFL defenses have adjusted quite well to Jones running tactics. For me, he appears to be asking for it if he continues to run relatively frequently as a second option.
Don’t give me this “it’s only a 2-year deal” crap.
Question: Why would Schoen and Daboll not exercise the fifth year extension just as insurance; yet go ahead and provide a four year contract extension? This gets back to the first question. Regardless of what actually happened in 2022, it appears to this fan that Schoen and Daboll did a 180-degree about face in the off season from where they were during the season. I say 180-degree because they could have franchised him. They chose not to.
"You guys all saw last season. The guy won 10 games. He won a road playoff game for the Giants."
Questions: Did the Bucs stick with Trent Dilfer after they won the Super Bowl? How are the Titan’s doing with Tannerhill? Is Cousins going to be re-signed with the Vikings? Why isn’t Winston the starter with the Saints? Sticking with Jones stinks and is like betting to an inside straight after the bettor lost money (sunk cost) thinking his luck is bound to change. That is bad behavioral economics.
"If ownership did not have any deciding role in retaining Daniel Jones…"
Question: How could any “owner” of any business not have a deciding role in a key, strategic decision to retain Jones? Mara and Tisch are the owners for Christ sake. They have that right. Do the fans believe that they had no input or involvement in the decision to bet $160 million on a questionable QB? Really? If they did then the fans need to recognize that this is business as usual. The owners will not, nor should they not be involved in such important decisions. The issue is how will their behavior change to avoid the land mines that they keep stepping on with the collateral damage of firing GMs and coaches. Unfortunately, we have no Pete Rozelle-like direct involvement to save this franchise from its owners. I fear we are in for dark times as Giant fans.
If there are questions about who should be the Giants starting QB going into 2025, Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll will not be here to be part of that decision making.
You have 2024 to have an answer at QB. A rookie buys them that. Daniel Jones coming off a typical Daniel Jones year does not.
yes, TD passes are up, but they only scored 10 points off drives that both started inside the other teams 40 yard line. How was the production against Dallas in the first half?
People keep trashing Pugh, but the pass blocking on the left side his miles better with Thomas and Pugh on the side, Jones hardly played with either, and Bredeson was his starting center for a few games.
Pretty obvious they should be hard at drafted a QB early, and Jones will have next year and then move on.
But the game is too fast to not be able to process quickly. And the fact that a rookie Center is tasked with setting protections, when it should be the 5th year QB's job is indicative of this
Ending up in a draft position where the only way to get the QB we want is to trade future #1 picks. This team is so far behind the Eagles and Cowboys that we can't afford future drafts without picking in the first round.
RE: RE: More should be discussed on the cap implications of running it back
I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
I haven't been able to find anything concrete on this, but I remember reading or hearing that on a podcast when the contract came out. There is also an Athletic article that mentions escalators:
"Jones also can earn an additional $35 million in incentives and escalators throughout the deal. His personal incentives are tied to passing yards, passing touchdowns, total offensive yards and total touchdowns, according to a league source.
Jones can earn up to $1 million for finishing in the top 15 among quarterbacks in those four categories, according to Pro Football Talk. He can earn another $1.5 million for finishing in the top 10 among quarterbacks in those four categories and another $1.5 million for finishing in the top five among quarterbacks in those four categories." Duggan Article - ( New Window )
Ending up in a draft position where the only way to get the QB we want is to trade future #1 picks. This team is so far behind the Eagles and Cowboys that we can't afford future drafts without picking in the first round.
We also can't afford to go into those games with those teams stacking 8 guys in the box and daring the QB to beat them with his arm when that QB has no chance in hell at doing that.
Let's just all agree that Jones is damaged goods and we need to move on.
Forget about whether or not there are some who feel he could have been the guy vs. others who feel he's never been nor will be.
The injury history makes all of it moot now. Especially when considering his legs are the most dynamic part of his game. Jones can't be exposed to these hits at the NFL level any longer.
But the game is too fast to not be able to process quickly. And the fact that a rookie Center is tasked with setting protections, when it should be the 5th year QB's job is indicative of this
Watching Daniel Jones trying to play QB is so awkward. He looks anything but natural out there.
We have more than a large enough sample size to know
that Daniel Jones cannot hit receivers downfield with any consistency, lacks pocket presence and when things break down in the pock almost always tucks and runs rather than keeping eyes open downfield to make a play when coverage is breaking down. It was time to move on before he got the contract but I can see why they did it and the Barkley contractual situation put us in a real bind. Thankfully, the contract is "fairly" easy to get out from under. Most definately time to look for a quarterback of the future.
Ending up in a draft position where the only way to get the QB we want is to trade future #1 picks. This team is so far behind the Eagles and Cowboys that we can't afford future drafts without picking in the first round.
We also can't afford to go into those games with those teams stacking 8 guys in the box and daring the QB to beat them with his arm when that QB has no chance in hell at doing that.
Agreed. To be clear, I am firmly in the "move on from Jones" camp. My comment is more related to the question about rooting for losses or rooting for wins the rest of the season. People here note that sometimes QBs drafted outside the top 10 end up being better than those in the top 10, and that's true. But it's also true that if Schoen decides he likes one of the Big 2 or 3, he may be forced to give up future #1s to get him. So it's very possible that the cost of meaningless wins against Washington and NE is a future top 5 pick
RE: RE: More should be discussed on the cap implications of running it back
I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
Linked article has all the details on incentives. Initial theoretical maximum total of $35M, half of which dependent on playoff appearance. The theoretical $17.5M achievable by personal performance alone has already been reduced by fact Jones can't hit any incentives this year. Also, the highest level of incentives aren't easy to reach.
Bottom line, I would say, is that the incentives are less significant than the $23M injury guarantee. And, whatever we in the peanut gallery may think the Giants should do, I don't get any sense that the Giants will allow either factor to influence what they do with Jones.
I do agree with Blue the Dog's point that the current $47M cap hit for Jones for 2024 could very well be restructured in the effort to compete in 2024, with the consequence of increasing the current $22M dead cap figure for 2025 that has gotten so much focus.
Great business acumen he does NOT have.
Whether he "leaned" on Schoen (regarding Jones) or not, will not be relevant if they go with Jones next year and he bombs.
Seats will be empty, people will be calling for the heads of the GM and HC and John will just sit upstairs and say "it wasn't me!"
That's been the business model for sometime now. BW and Terps have been on the money on that point!
Really well done. I felt like I could have read that on the Athletic. You laid out the situation perfectly. While I am at heart a Daniel Jones fan, the "Go Terps" argument is pretty damning. While I like the guy, I think we all have to admit we need to move on. Too many things would have to fall perfectly into place for Jones to be a successful QB in this specific situation. The QB hell is that if some of those things fell somewhat into place and Jones, whenever he can play, does enough to keep the "what if" glimmer of hope alive... that's the trap. Time to start over. He can go be successful in a more perfect situation, if there is one.
The risk is too high to pass on a young QB in the draft. But obviously, there’s a huge need for talent upgrades beyond the QB spot. You’re right about the fans being sick of things of course. My fandom has gone from white hot, “don’t plan anything on Fall Sundays!” To “let’s find something interesting to do “ on Fall Sundays.
I'm curious as to how they arrived at the contract
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
RE: I'm curious as to how they arrived at the contract
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
RE: I'm curious as to how they arrived at the contract
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
I really think they wanted Barkley done so they could tag Jones, if necessary.
This is what I think is going happen, not what I think should.
Surgery goes well.
Daniel does everything possible known to man to be cleared for contact by Late August.
He will be throwing soon.
He is in the facility every day.
He is organizing practices with teammates and they ALL show up.
Giants draft a QB in the first round.
Jones looks great by August. Arm looks stronger, all that shit. Teammates and coaches will be praising his work and marveling at his recovery.
He will start.
Just like they did to Eli when they drafted Jones, they will tell Jones he has to win.
If the OL isn't in shambles, I am going suggest he does win.
I think Jones eventually injures himself in 2024 and it is done. The rookie starts and we never go back.
Listen, this is not Madden.
They are not cutting Jones. Those that want that expose themselves as trolls.
If Jones is healthy by the start of the season ,even if Maye, Williams or Daniels is on the roster, it will not mean Mara is pulling the strings, that is the way of the NFL.
RE: I'm curious as to how they arrived at the contract
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
IMO - that was the ownership's push.
The opt out was the stipulation Schoen/Daboll pushed for.
In my eyes - I think it's Chris Mara vs. team Schoen/Daboll for control of the roster with key players.
Not an uptick in production, when you're down to your 3rd QB.
This observation continently ignores the addition of Thomas Pugh and Schmitz in to Online with a healthy Saquon. It also ignores the caliber of competition
You want to move on from Jones, fine, find a better argument
I simply think they said to themselves “We are going to evaluate a full season”.
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
It seems Schoen and Daboll felt that Jones had mastered the beginners exam and now they were ready to go full throttle with him with more weapons in place and he didn’t answer the bell. Obviously they had a brutal schedule and some injuries but at the end of the day Jones wasn’t good enough AND hurt his neck again in the process.
It backfired. It happens. But I’m not ready to say that they made a some colossal mistake. They were somewhat measured even in the contract they finally gave him. They must pivot now. I keep making the comparison to Cohen with the Scherzer and Verlander deals. He went for it and then realized the plan had bombed and moved off quickly. NYG must do the same here.
They arrived at a mostly 2 year contract because the Giants were picking 25th in the draft, had just made the playoffs, and Jones was reason 1A why they did.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
You literally just said if you miss on a high QB draft pick, it will really set the franchise back. How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
Four years so far.
I would argue that it didn't need to be that long. The Giants had a shot at Tua and Herbert a year later. Obviously they passed, but the opportunity to pivot was there. And they had a shot at Fields a year after that. Again, they passed (and it may well have been justified) but they had the opportunity. And they were in position to take a QB in 2022 if they were so inclined, but none were worth the investment.
Which is actually, IMO, the bigger risk with getting your QB choice wrong (including deciding not to make a choice): you don't know when the opportunity to pursue a new QB will align with the availability of a QB that you like.
The setback isn't getting your QB wrong. The setback is holding out hope that you didn't get it wrong, and skipping over the next few chances while you wait for need and opportunity to intersect again.
Well written Eric. It's a good summary of where we've been and where we are. I hope the team reads it. They (and I mean ownership when I say this) need to take a long look at themselves and how they run the team.
One thing I'll add about the reference to me specifically - I didn't dislike Jones from the start. I was taken with his Duke pro day (particularly in comparison to Haskins, who was popular here), and I thought the team needed to move on from Eli. Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
Anyway I liked Jones initially and wanted him to start from opening day in 2019. My reservations with him developed as I watched him play that season. I always had an open mind on Daniel Jones - he made up my mind with his play, and nothing more.
RE: RE: I'm curious as to how they arrived at the contract
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
Mara loves the kid, for reasons I’ll never understand. He definitely weighed in. Hell, he did it publicly multiple times with the media where he was fawning all over him.
They arrived at a mostly 2 year contract because the Giants were picking 25th in the draft, had just made the playoffs, and Jones was reason 1A why they did.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I get what you're saying. But I bet you if Barkley had agreed to a very favorable contract before FA opened, DJ would have been tagged instead. Schoen was guided by the position rather than the player (IMO), and may have ceded a bit more ground on DJ than he would have liked because he fundamentally felt more comfortable with a slight overcommitment at the QB position instead of the RB position.
as I said in the article, if it was a Schoen and Daboll decision alone, Mara and Tisch should be pretty pissed.
People here can dismiss the Minnesota playoff game all they want, but very few teams are moving off a guy with that type of road playoff game fresh in their minds. Especially not when the full season was more or less a test that the player in question passed if grading overall.
And as far as Jones's status heading into last offseason, in places other then BBI, NY sports talk radio, and general football discussions, it was pretty widely accepted what the Giants should do. There were many teams in the market for a QB and the feeling was Jones would have gotten picked up somewhere. That's just the truth.
whether a QB entering his sixth year is the answer. Just think about that - going into his sixth season...
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
Also, the bad OL has been here for those 5 years, the bad receivers have been here for those 5 years, multiple coaching changes have been here for those 5 years. Is this a clue to what Mara meant when he said, "we did enough to ruin this kid." I know, in the hate DJ camp, these are excuses but to any reasonable person these are facts. Now, the hate group will come out with their facts, and cite some of DJs stats, but a lot of those negatives are due to what I stated above. Hey, has he been great no but he has performed under difficult circumstances. IMO, any other QB, even those considered elite, could not have fared better in the same situation.
They arrived at a mostly 2 year contract because the Giants were picking 25th in the draft, had just made the playoffs, and Jones was reason 1A why they did.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I'm not as much a believer in Jones as you Ryan but this is a solid post and I think you're 100% right.
as I said in the article, if it was a Schoen and Daboll decision alone, Mara and Tisch should be pretty pissed.
People here can dismiss the Minnesota playoff game all they want, but very few teams are moving off a guy with that type of road playoff game fresh in their minds. Especially not when the full season was more or less a test that the player in question passed if grading overall.
And as far as Jones's status heading into last offseason, in places other then BBI, NY sports talk radio, and general football discussions, it was pretty widely accepted what the Giants should do. There were many teams in the market for a QB and the feeling was Jones would have gotten picked up somewhere. That's just the truth.
No one is dismissing the Minn playoff game. If anything, it is overblown by a wide margin.
The game that seemingly gets dismissed too often (including the Giants) was the next one.
Not an uptick in production, when you're down to your 3rd QB.
This observation continently ignores the addition of Thomas Pugh and Schmitz in to Online with a healthy Saquon. It also ignores the caliber of competition
You want to move on from Jones, fine, find a better argument
Pugh has been a net negative in pass pro, and Jones had Waller while DeVito has not. Thomas is playing with a sprained MCL and isn't quite up to his all-pro level. Barkley also seems to be a bit banged up as well (which is the nature of playing RB in the NFL - you're going to be banged up in the second half of the season most years).
You can do this across the board. For the most part, it's the same team and same scheme. Arguing on the fringes when you're comparing a 5th year $40M QB to an UDFA rookie is kind of an indictment of the former no matter how you slice it, IMO.
I like DJ as a person, but as my QB going forward...the guy that needs to beat the big boys, consecutive weeks in the playoffs and the big game....I don't see it.
But I agree with the consensus here.....which of the college QB's gives us that best chance, can play in NY and elevate the rest of the team's play.
We have to get this right or it's continued frustration. The Eagles pivoted quickly off Wentz to Hurts. We can't seem to do that well. Hopefully Schoen proves me wrong.
If Giants have the #2 overall pick in 2024 which they likely will not, it would be an obvious outcome to take Williams or Maye depending on who was there.
The QB either starts the project or is part of the project from the start. Otherwise you are simply wasting the time of everyone else on the roster. Teams that succeed with below-average QB play are a rarity, and the examples of roster building then QB - the Bucs adding Brady and the Rams adding Stafford - are not realistic equivalent options right now. And with regards to the Cowboys and Niners: both Purdy and Dak are good QBs. Are they great? Maybe not, but both teams would struggle with bottom 3rd QB play.
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
What will set the Giants back further if they decide to pass on a QB in the draft and commit to Jones yet again. Daboll will be fired and they will have yet another coaching change which will then cause the remaining Jones supporters to claim that he should get the 2025 season to prove himself under his 4th HC.
Having said that, I don't know how you can read that and think "maybe Jones should be the guy in 2024." Jones has had a thousand chances to show what he can do - even with a hideously mismanaged roster, and it isn't much. This roster is still a couple of years from competing with Dallas and Philadelphia. I can't see any scenario where running it back with Jones for 2-3 years makes any sense. This guy is not going somewhere else and turning into Tom Brady. Maybe he goes somewhere else and becomes Joe Flacco.
Schoen made a mistake signing Jones to the extension that he did. The question for him now is can he recognize the mistake and do something to mitigate it, or will we just start Jones next year and act surprised when he plays like Daniel Jones?
If Giants have the #2 overall pick in 2024 which they likely will not, it would be an obvious outcome to take Williams or Maye depending on who was there.
Yes but 3 QB's went in the top 5. Young has struggled mightily but he is in an incredibly tough situation because his weapons are among the worst in the NFL. Stroud is having the best season of a rookie QB in NFL history. Hell even Anthony Richardson looked great until his injury. Richardson's stats in college were very bad and he was expected to need a year on the bench but he performed surprisingly well. This year there are three QB's I would love to see the Giants draft and if they pass on any of them then I will lose alot of faith in the FO.
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Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
If you can't see at this point, given what we have now seen in 2023 from Tyrod and DeVito, that 2022 was simply Daboll masterminding a remedial scheme to account for DJ's limitations, then you still don't get it and probably never will. Denial is a powerful thing.
DJ beat three good teams last year. The Ravens beat themselves, the Jaguars had a terrible start who only rebounded in November after we beat them, and the Vikings were arguably the worst defense to ever host a playoff game. The Eagles playoff game should have been the tell that the league had figured out how to effectively scheme against Daboll's approach.
Schoen missed it. Big mistake. Pivot quickly now. Get DJ's replacement in April.
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In comment 16308627 The Mike said:
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Well balanced and objective. When all is said and done, Terps will have had precisely the right point of view on this entire nightmarish episode of Giants football history. Hopefully, Schoen pivots quickly and the DJ Era firmly becomes a thing of the past this coming April.
And if past is prologue, the Giants front office would be well served to take a hard look at Jayden Daniels right about now...
I don't mean this to be perceived as a dick comment but:
It is just funny to me that most everyone here has decided that since Daboll has been the coach, 2022 doesn't count and 2023 totally counts. Instead of taking a more "balanced" point of view on performance, most of you guys have basically come to the opinion that the full 18 game experience of Daniel Jones in 2022 did not happen, but the 5 games did happen in 2023.
What if we say it another way, and I think someone else on here made this point a few days ago:
2022 does count, but we've seen DJ have success before when he's operating in ways that teams haven't seen before. We saw it when he was a rookie and there was no NFL tape on him, and we saw it in 2022 when there was no tape on him in Daboll/Kafka's offense. And what we've also seen is that the league adjusts to his success much more quickly than he adjusts to their adjustments. DJ's success has now twice been followed by a crash back to earth.
What DJ and the Giants did in 2022 matters, but it matters less than 2023 because 2023 is the current point that we're working from going forward. And the ability to adapt to opponents taking away what worked for him in the past is something we have not seen happen with DJ.
So, unless and until we get new evidence to the contrary, how can anyone be certain that 2023 isn't the beginning of a repeat of 2020/2021? It was pretty obvious right from the opener this year that the Cowboys were prepared for a heavy dose of play-action, for example - they were ignoring the play fake and rushing DJ as though it was a regular dropback. We knew that the Giants used playaction more than almost any other team in 2022, and that was a big part of DJ's success. So when that was taken away, what was DJ's next move going to be? This year, there wasn't one. And there are plenty of excuses that might be valid. But this isn't a one-off scenario, IMO - the league seems to catch up to DJ and then he struggles without the cheat codes.
Great post GD.
a)great summary
b) the Haskins flopped/killed line - I spit out my coffee
c) I'm a tired fan (67 y/o been watching since I was 5 sitting in front of the old b/w tv set with my dad)
time to move on from Jones. Period.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
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I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
Agreed. And perhaps the most important reason why they have to get a top tier quarterback from the 2024 draft....
But the league is a passing league, and he is simply not smart enough to run a complex offense, read defenses, and not get baited into game changing plays by rookies. I am not saying he is not a smart guy, he undoubtedly is. But is football IQ and processing time are not even NFL average. The game is moving as quickly for him now as it did his rookie year.
I would love for the Giants to be opening up the playbook for the next QB to read a defense and then attack it, not be limited to one-read throws and bootleg runs.
Question: Does this explain why the Giants gave Jones an extension? If one assumes this is a Mara defense, then it follows that Mara had definite input into the decision to enter into a negotiation with Jones. Furthermore, as Eric points out, it seems clear (hindsight is always 20/20) that FT’ing Jones would have been better than Barkley. How many BBI’rs wanted Barkley to be a unrestricted free agent?
“GoTerps Critique”
Question: Does Jones elevate the team in any way shape or form that Eli Manning, Phil Simms or Jeff Hostetler did? As pointed out in the article, it does not matter all the changes in management and coaching staff. Isn’t 5 years of history enough? Frankly, I don’t care if he has great games against poor teams. Look at his record against team that make the playoffs. And let’s be candid and open about the injury situation. Eric is. This QB gets injured often and the injuries are not insignificant. Long term prognosis? Fans ought to be concerned that as Eric pointed out NFL defenses have adjusted quite well to Jones running tactics. For me, he appears to be asking for it if he continues to run relatively frequently as a second option.
Don’t give me this “it’s only a 2-year deal” crap.
Question: Why would Schoen and Daboll not exercise the fifth year extension just as insurance; yet go ahead and provide a four year contract extension? This gets back to the first question. Regardless of what actually happened in 2022, it appears to this fan that Schoen and Daboll did a 180-degree about face in the off season from where they were during the season. I say 180-degree because they could have franchised him. They chose not to.
"You guys all saw last season. The guy won 10 games. He won a road playoff game for the Giants."
Questions: Did the Bucs stick with Trent Dilfer after they won the Super Bowl? How are the Titan’s doing with Tannerhill? Is Cousins going to be re-signed with the Vikings? Why isn’t Winston the starter with the Saints? Sticking with Jones stinks and is like betting to an inside straight after the bettor lost money (sunk cost) thinking his luck is bound to change. That is bad behavioral economics.
"If ownership did not have any deciding role in retaining Daniel Jones…"
Question: How could any “owner” of any business not have a deciding role in a key, strategic decision to retain Jones? Mara and Tisch are the owners for Christ sake. They have that right. Do the fans believe that they had no input or involvement in the decision to bet $160 million on a questionable QB? Really? If they did then the fans need to recognize that this is business as usual. The owners will not, nor should they not be involved in such important decisions. The issue is how will their behavior change to avoid the land mines that they keep stepping on with the collateral damage of firing GMs and coaches. Unfortunately, we have no Pete Rozelle-like direct involvement to save this franchise from its owners. I fear we are in for dark times as Giant fans.
You have 2024 to have an answer at QB. A rookie buys them that. Daniel Jones coming off a typical Daniel Jones year does not.
People keep trashing Pugh, but the pass blocking on the left side his miles better with Thomas and Pugh on the side, Jones hardly played with either, and Bredeson was his starting center for a few games.
Pretty obvious they should be hard at drafted a QB early, and Jones will have next year and then move on.
Yes, drafting him at #6 was a mistake. But the biggest sin was doubling, tripling, and quadrupling down on a subpar talent all these years.
Let's not do this again. Underperforming QBs need competition, regardless what the excuses are.
But the game is too fast to not be able to process quickly. And the fact that a rookie Center is tasked with setting protections, when it should be the 5th year QB's job is indicative of this
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I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
I haven't been able to find anything concrete on this, but I remember reading or hearing that on a podcast when the contract came out. There is also an Athletic article that mentions escalators:
"Jones also can earn an additional $35 million in incentives and escalators throughout the deal. His personal incentives are tied to passing yards, passing touchdowns, total offensive yards and total touchdowns, according to a league source.
Jones can earn up to $1 million for finishing in the top 15 among quarterbacks in those four categories, according to Pro Football Talk. He can earn another $1.5 million for finishing in the top 10 among quarterbacks in those four categories and another $1.5 million for finishing in the top five among quarterbacks in those four categories."
Duggan Article - ( New Window )
We also can't afford to go into those games with those teams stacking 8 guys in the box and daring the QB to beat them with his arm when that QB has no chance in hell at doing that.
Forget about whether or not there are some who feel he could have been the guy vs. others who feel he's never been nor will be.
The injury history makes all of it moot now. Especially when considering his legs are the most dynamic part of his game. Jones can't be exposed to these hits at the NFL level any longer.
But the game is too fast to not be able to process quickly. And the fact that a rookie Center is tasked with setting protections, when it should be the 5th year QB's job is indicative of this
Watching Daniel Jones trying to play QB is so awkward. He looks anything but natural out there.
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Ending up in a draft position where the only way to get the QB we want is to trade future #1 picks. This team is so far behind the Eagles and Cowboys that we can't afford future drafts without picking in the first round.
We also can't afford to go into those games with those teams stacking 8 guys in the box and daring the QB to beat them with his arm when that QB has no chance in hell at doing that.
Agreed. To be clear, I am firmly in the "move on from Jones" camp. My comment is more related to the question about rooting for losses or rooting for wins the rest of the season. People here note that sometimes QBs drafted outside the top 10 end up being better than those in the top 10, and that's true. But it's also true that if Schoen decides he likes one of the Big 2 or 3, he may be forced to give up future #1s to get him. So it's very possible that the cost of meaningless wins against Washington and NE is a future top 5 pick
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I haven't seen much talked about what it would actually look like to run it back, cap wise. If Schoen and the Giants decide to run it back with Jones, with no real young competition (aka hope), it will be a win or be fired season, like Eric mentioned. If that is the case, Schoen can't have DJ on a 47 million dollar cap hit next year. He would need to lower that cap hit to surround Jones with free agent talent to try to win and save his job (sound familiar?). This of course would mean pushing more money from Jones's deal into the future, making it harder to move on from him in 2025 and 2026.
This doesn't even get into the fact that Jones has some very easy to hit incentives (like hitting top 15 in various statistics) which not only pay him that year, but increase his GTD pay by that much for lifetime of the deal (if I am not mistaken). So if he plays next year as a bridge, he could play incredibly mediocrely, and still increase the cost to cut him.
There is also the possibility that if the Giants play him next year, he gets hurt, and they can't cut him because of injury guarantees. If Jones gets hurt next year, it could cost the Giants and additional 23 million in 2025 cap space.
If the Giants are 5-12 in 2024, it looks a whole lot better if there is a promising rookie on the team, and 25 million in cap relief for 2025 from Jones being cut, than if there is no young QB and Jones due another 50-60 million in cap hit over 2025 and 2026.
Must read post. My question is whether those incentive details have been released. If Blue the Dog is correct, the team really has many incentives to keep Jones out for all of 2024.
Linked article has all the details on incentives. Initial theoretical maximum total of $35M, half of which dependent on playoff appearance. The theoretical $17.5M achievable by personal performance alone has already been reduced by fact Jones can't hit any incentives this year. Also, the highest level of incentives aren't easy to reach.
Bottom line, I would say, is that the incentives are less significant than the $23M injury guarantee. And, whatever we in the peanut gallery may think the Giants should do, I don't get any sense that the Giants will allow either factor to influence what they do with Jones.
I do agree with Blue the Dog's point that the current $47M cap hit for Jones for 2024 could very well be restructured in the effort to compete in 2024, with the consequence of increasing the current $22M dead cap figure for 2025 that has gotten so much focus.
si.com - ( New Window )
Whether he "leaned" on Schoen (regarding Jones) or not, will not be relevant if they go with Jones next year and he bombs.
Seats will be empty, people will be calling for the heads of the GM and HC and John will just sit upstairs and say "it wasn't me!"
That's been the business model for sometime now. BW and Terps have been on the money on that point!
The fallback has been a shit supporting cast - but we've seen backup QBs doing more with that same shit cast
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
I really think they wanted Barkley done so they could tag Jones, if necessary.
Surgery goes well.
Daniel does everything possible known to man to be cleared for contact by Late August.
He will be throwing soon.
He is in the facility every day.
He is organizing practices with teammates and they ALL show up.
Giants draft a QB in the first round.
Jones looks great by August. Arm looks stronger, all that shit. Teammates and coaches will be praising his work and marveling at his recovery.
He will start.
Just like they did to Eli when they drafted Jones, they will tell Jones he has to win.
If the OL isn't in shambles, I am going suggest he does win.
I think Jones eventually injures himself in 2024 and it is done. The rookie starts and we never go back.
Listen, this is not Madden.
They are not cutting Jones. Those that want that expose themselves as trolls.
If Jones is healthy by the start of the season ,even if Maye, Williams or Daniels is on the roster, it will not mean Mara is pulling the strings, that is the way of the NFL.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
IMO - that was the ownership's push.
The opt out was the stipulation Schoen/Daboll pushed for.
In my eyes - I think it's Chris Mara vs. team Schoen/Daboll for control of the roster with key players.
It is totally a guess.
This observation continently ignores the addition of Thomas Pugh and Schmitz in to Online with a healthy Saquon. It also ignores the caliber of competition
You want to move on from Jones, fine, find a better argument
Yes, they could have franchised him instead giving him 2 years, but that tag would have limited them with other moves.
They were in a tough spot, made a choice, which was at least justifiable in the moment, and it didn't work out. That shit happens.
The real test is this offseason. Do they quadruple down or do they pivot?
We'll see
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
It seems Schoen and Daboll felt that Jones had mastered the beginners exam and now they were ready to go full throttle with him with more weapons in place and he didn’t answer the bell. Obviously they had a brutal schedule and some injuries but at the end of the day Jones wasn’t good enough AND hurt his neck again in the process.
It backfired. It happens. But I’m not ready to say that they made a some colossal mistake. They were somewhat measured even in the contract they finally gave him. They must pivot now. I keep making the comparison to Cohen with the Scherzer and Verlander deals. He went for it and then realized the plan had bombed and moved off quickly. NYG must do the same here.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
You literally just said if you miss on a high QB draft pick, it will really set the franchise back. How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
Four years so far.
I would argue that it didn't need to be that long. The Giants had a shot at Tua and Herbert a year later. Obviously they passed, but the opportunity to pivot was there. And they had a shot at Fields a year after that. Again, they passed (and it may well have been justified) but they had the opportunity. And they were in position to take a QB in 2022 if they were so inclined, but none were worth the investment.
Which is actually, IMO, the bigger risk with getting your QB choice wrong (including deciding not to make a choice): you don't know when the opportunity to pursue a new QB will align with the availability of a QB that you like.
The setback isn't getting your QB wrong. The setback is holding out hope that you didn't get it wrong, and skipping over the next few chances while you wait for need and opportunity to intersect again.
One thing I'll add about the reference to me specifically - I didn't dislike Jones from the start. I was taken with his Duke pro day (particularly in comparison to Haskins, who was popular here), and I thought the team needed to move on from Eli. Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
Anyway I liked Jones initially and wanted him to start from opening day in 2019. My reservations with him developed as I watched him play that season. I always had an open mind on Daniel Jones - he made up my mind with his play, and nothing more.
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The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
Mara loves the kid, for reasons I’ll never understand. He definitely weighed in. Hell, he did it publicly multiple times with the media where he was fawning all over him.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I get what you're saying. But I bet you if Barkley had agreed to a very favorable contract before FA opened, DJ would have been tagged instead. Schoen was guided by the position rather than the player (IMO), and may have ceded a bit more ground on DJ than he would have liked because he fundamentally felt more comfortable with a slight overcommitment at the QB position instead of the RB position.
People here can dismiss the Minnesota playoff game all they want, but very few teams are moving off a guy with that type of road playoff game fresh in their minds. Especially not when the full season was more or less a test that the player in question passed if grading overall.
And as far as Jones's status heading into last offseason, in places other then BBI, NY sports talk radio, and general football discussions, it was pretty widely accepted what the Giants should do. There were many teams in the market for a QB and the feeling was Jones would have gotten picked up somewhere. That's just the truth.
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
Also, the bad OL has been here for those 5 years, the bad receivers have been here for those 5 years, multiple coaching changes have been here for those 5 years. Is this a clue to what Mara meant when he said, "we did enough to ruin this kid." I know, in the hate DJ camp, these are excuses but to any reasonable person these are facts. Now, the hate group will come out with their facts, and cite some of DJs stats, but a lot of those negatives are due to what I stated above. Hey, has he been great no but he has performed under difficult circumstances. IMO, any other QB, even those considered elite, could not have fared better in the same situation.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I'm not as much a believer in Jones as you Ryan but this is a solid post and I think you're 100% right.
This is completely accurate in my view.
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as I said in the article, if it was a Schoen and Daboll decision alone, Mara and Tisch should be pretty pissed.
People here can dismiss the Minnesota playoff game all they want, but very few teams are moving off a guy with that type of road playoff game fresh in their minds. Especially not when the full season was more or less a test that the player in question passed if grading overall.
And as far as Jones's status heading into last offseason, in places other then BBI, NY sports talk radio, and general football discussions, it was pretty widely accepted what the Giants should do. There were many teams in the market for a QB and the feeling was Jones would have gotten picked up somewhere. That's just the truth.
No one is dismissing the Minn playoff game. If anything, it is overblown by a wide margin.
The game that seemingly gets dismissed too often (including the Giants) was the next one.
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Not an uptick in production, when you're down to your 3rd QB.
This observation continently ignores the addition of Thomas Pugh and Schmitz in to Online with a healthy Saquon. It also ignores the caliber of competition
You want to move on from Jones, fine, find a better argument
Pugh has been a net negative in pass pro, and Jones had Waller while DeVito has not. Thomas is playing with a sprained MCL and isn't quite up to his all-pro level. Barkley also seems to be a bit banged up as well (which is the nature of playing RB in the NFL - you're going to be banged up in the second half of the season most years).
You can do this across the board. For the most part, it's the same team and same scheme. Arguing on the fringes when you're comparing a 5th year $40M QB to an UDFA rookie is kind of an indictment of the former no matter how you slice it, IMO.