had to fight literally to the last hour on a contract with Jones should be telling to anyone who looked at it, even speculatively.
It's clear to some degree Schoen and Daboll respected the work Jones put in, but don't trust the body of work or consistency enough to see "franchise guy", thus they overpaid on front end of deal. There weren't any immediate pivots off Jones or upgrade alternatives. Jimmy G? Thats the ghost of Daniel Jones right there.
Most folks in NFL were stunned Jones got about 40-41m est, and felt the 28-32m range was more than fair per season, because in reality it is a 2 year guarantee only. I strongly suspect Jones team were trying to hardball a 3rd year in with guarantees.
whether a QB entering his sixth year is the answer. Just think about that - going into his sixth season...
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
Also, the bad OL has been here for those 5 years, the bad receivers have been here for those 5 years, multiple coaching changes have been here for those 5 years. Is this a clue to what Mara meant when he said, "we did enough to ruin this kid." I know, in the hate DJ camp, these are excuses but to any reasonable person these are facts. Now, the hate group will come out with their facts, and cite some of DJs stats, but a lot of those negatives are due to what I stated above. Hey, has he been great no but he has performed under difficult circumstances. IMO, any other QB, even those considered elite, could not have fared better in the same situation.
It's cute that you think you're one of the "reasonable person[s]."
This is what I think is going happen, not what I think should.
Surgery goes well.
Daniel does everything possible known to man to be cleared for contact by Late August.
He will be throwing soon.
He is in the facility every day.
He is organizing practices with teammates and they ALL show up.
Giants draft a QB in the first round.
Jones looks great by August. Arm looks stronger, all that shit. Teammates and coaches will be praising his work and marveling at his recovery.
He will start.
Just like they did to Eli when they drafted Jones, they will tell Jones he has to win.
If the OL isn't in shambles, I am going suggest he does win.
I think Jones eventually injures himself in 2024 and it is done. The rookie starts and we never go back.
Listen, this is not Madden.
They are not cutting Jones. Those that want that expose themselves as trolls.
If Jones is healthy by the start of the season ,even if Maye, Williams or Daniels is on the roster, it will not mean Mara is pulling the strings, that is the way of the NFL.
had to fight literally to the last hour on a contract with Jones should be telling to anyone who looked at it, even speculatively.
It's clear to some degree Schoen and Daboll respected the work Jones put in, but don't trust the body of work or consistency enough to see "franchise guy", thus they overpaid on front end of deal. There weren't any immediate pivots off Jones or upgrade alternatives. Jimmy G? Thats the ghost of Daniel Jones right there.
Most folks in NFL were stunned Jones got about 40-41m est, and felt the 28-32m range was more than fair per season, because in reality it is a 2 year guarantee only. I strongly suspect Jones team were trying to hardball a 3rd year in with guarantees.
What are you talking about? That deal was graded somewhere around a B+/A for the Giants here on BBI.
Well written Eric. It's a good summary of where we've been and where we are. I hope the team reads it. They (and I mean ownership when I say this) need to take a long look at themselves and how they run the team.
One thing I'll add about the reference to me specifically - I didn't dislike Jones from the start. I was taken with his Duke pro day (particularly in comparison to Haskins, who was popular here), and I thought the team needed to move on from Eli. Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
Anyway I liked Jones initially and wanted him to start from opening day in 2019. My reservations with him developed as I watched him play that season. I always had an open mind on Daniel Jones - he made up my mind with his play, and nothing more.
To be fully transparent here... those arguments were not all yours, I just used you as what I thought would be a funny counterweight to the "John Mara defense" since you've been the most vocal. So I grouped all of the key negative arguments under your name. Don't sue me for defamation! ;)
This is what I think is going happen, not what I think should.
Surgery goes well.
Daniel does everything possible known to man to be cleared for contact by Late August.
He will be throwing soon.
He is in the facility every day.
He is organizing practices with teammates and they ALL show up.
Giants draft a QB in the first round.
Jones looks great by August. Arm looks stronger, all that shit. Teammates and coaches will be praising his work and marveling at his recovery.
He will start.
Just like they did to Eli when they drafted Jones, they will tell Jones he has to win.
If the OL isn't in shambles, I am going suggest he does win.
I think Jones eventually injures himself in 2024 and it is done. The rookie starts and we never go back.
Listen, this is not Madden.
They are not cutting Jones. Those that want that expose themselves as trolls.
If Jones is healthy by the start of the season ,even if Maye, Williams or Daniels is on the roster, it will not mean Mara is pulling the strings, that is the way of the NFL.
The part I bolded above is an enormous risk for the Giants. DJ has significant injury guarantees for 2025 and leaving the transition in the hands of fate/health could prove VERY costly for the Giants' 2025 cap outlook.
A lot of fans talk about the disadvantages that DJ has had to face in his time here with the Giants. Let's see how many will be willing to recognize the disadvantage the new QB will have to face when he has a roster that has a significant dead money gap to overcome relative to his opponents' rosters.
write up. Nice work Eric! It is sad we are in this situation. I have been in the boat of his supporting cast sucks. I mean if you put him on SF right now and healthy he would look really good. He has shown when he has time he can be good. This year is probably the worst OL play I have ever seen and that is saying something as we have sucked for soooo long. However, the problem isn't fixing the OL and getting a legit #1 WR anymore. Two neck injuries, hamstring, concussion, ACL, ankle, etc. You can't rely on him staying healthy. Especially when he is at his best running an RPO. We have to take a QB in round one or two this year no matter what. I still feel there is no way he doesn't start the year but I don't think he will get past game 6 unless we are looking good and at least 4-2.
The draft is going to be crazy and when we win at least 1-2 more games this year and pick 10th it will either cost a lot to move up or we may reach at 10 and everyone freaks out.
Excellent DJ disseration.. but ya fuhgeddabout Devito
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
They arrived at a mostly 2 year contract because the Giants were picking 25th in the draft, had just made the playoffs, and Jones was reason 1A why they did.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I'm not as much a believer in Jones as you Ryan but this is a solid post and I think you're 100% right.
He is our NJ Italian Tom Brady that will take us to the promise land. /s
My neice called me the other day and was like this guy is our future. I can understand it... We just want some hope and right now at the QB position we don't really have much.
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
Mac Jones is not a dual threat. Week 9 isn't the playoffs. I know you don't want to concede the point.
They arrived at a mostly 2 year contract because the Giants were picking 25th in the draft, had just made the playoffs, and Jones was reason 1A why they did.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I smarter GM applied the Franchise Tag because Jones's 2022 performance was good, not great. One good performance should not have merited such a large reward.
So, make him do it again because we were willing to do it once before when we declined the 5th year option.
Well written Eric. It's a good summary of where we've been and where we are. I hope the team reads it. They (and I mean ownership when I say this) need to take a long look at themselves and how they run the team.
One thing I'll add about the reference to me specifically - I didn't dislike Jones from the start. I was taken with his Duke pro day (particularly in comparison to Haskins, who was popular here), and I thought the team needed to move on from Eli. Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
Anyway I liked Jones initially and wanted him to start from opening day in 2019. My reservations with him developed as I watched him play that season. I always had an open mind on Daniel Jones - he made up my mind with his play, and nothing more.
To be fully transparent here... those arguments were not all yours, I just used you as what I thought would be a funny counterweight to the "John Mara defense" since you've been the most vocal. So I grouped all of the key negative arguments under your name. Don't sue me for defamation! ;)
Ha no worries. Thanks for being a conduit to the team.
Excellent analysis and summation Eric, well done sir
I have been in the Jones camp, and still have a ray of hope that with some help he can become the man behind center for a few more years. That said, I am not opposed to drafting a QB early if its the guy they really want, no matter the price. If they screw it up however, we'll be worse off than we are now. As I said, I hope Jones can make it back, and be the player we all hope him to be, but insurance on the bench learning the ropes is never a bad thing knowing the fragility and achievements, or lack thereof, of Jones thus far. But we also have to realize that even if we do draft the next coming of Simms, Eli, Conerly or Tittle, we'll need to draft and recruit a better o line, if not I'm afraid of a repeated outcome.
RE: RE: RE: I'm curious as to how they arrived at the contract
The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
Mara loves the kid, for reasons I’ll never understand. He definitely weighed in. Hell, he did it publicly multiple times with the media where he was fawning all over him.
He loves him b/c he played a part in picking him...is my guess.
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
I don't think it whitewashed it. This is just my opinion but coming off that season with what we played with, we should have been better this year. From the standpoint of a really good rookie center improvement, Consistent OGs, you are hoping Neal made improvements, a big-time weapon in Waller, added speed WRs like Paris Campbell/Hyatt, really good training camps, etc You kind of expect that we would progress second year in the system with all those hopes for improvement. Sadly none of that panned out with exception of the center probably. So sad that this is where we are.
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
Mac Jones is not a dual threat. Week 9 isn't the playoffs. I know you don't want to concede the point.
Daniel Jones isn't a dual threat either. All he does well is run.
Daniel Jones isn't a dual threat either. All he does well is run.
And Eagles showed the entire NFL last year how to shut down his running. So he's not even that great at running anymore since he is just a straight line speed guy (Forest Gump) and not Lamar Jackson
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
Mac Jones is not a dual threat. Week 9 isn't the playoffs. I know you don't want to concede the point.
I don't want to conceded that week 9 isn't the playoffs? Ummm, yes I know it is not the playoffs. I concede that excellent argument to you, sir.
Now can you concede the point that even bad QBs put up very good numbers against the 32nd ranked pass defense in the NFL in 2022?
Or does the fact that it was a playoff game suddenly make their defense more formidable?
whether a QB entering his sixth year is the answer. Just think about that - going into his sixth season...
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
Also, the bad OL has been here for those 5 years, the bad receivers have been here for those 5 years, multiple coaching changes have been here for those 5 years. Is this a clue to what Mara meant when he said, "we did enough to ruin this kid." I know, in the hate DJ camp, these are excuses but to any reasonable person these are facts. Now, the hate group will come out with their facts, and cite some of DJs stats, but a lot of those negatives are due to what I stated above. Hey, has he been great no but he has performed under difficult circumstances. IMO, any other QB, even those considered elite, could not have fared better in the same situation.
Here's the line of demarcation on Jones: you believe he's been part of the problem or a victim of it.
If polled I'm sure nearly 100% of BBI would agree the entire team has been bad since 2019. The "hate group" calls them excuses because they're used to excuse (hah see how that works?) his poor performance instead of placing an iota of blame on DJ himself.
It was practically at the point where if he threw an interception it would be blamed on the relative humidity being too high in the stadium, or the wind was blowing out of the east instead of the north.
the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
That's a good point and I think an important one. The year the team is stuck with Jones' highest guaranteed money, don't make that the same year to start a 1st round QB's contract.
Another way to put it would be, should the team be deciding on the next QB's fifth year option after the guy has played through four season (or most of) or three or less seasons.
the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
did NOT do in 2022. What matters is the 2nd neck injury AND the ACL. It would be the height of idiocy to bet the team's future on a QB who is a TREMENDOUS injury risk, whose next one could disable him for life.
Any reasonable person HAS to see it that way. If Schoen doesn't, then he's not the right guy for the job and will probably be updating his resume by April of 2025.
did NOT do in 2022. What matters is the 2nd neck injury AND the ACL. It would be the height of idiocy to bet the team's future on a QB who is a TREMENDOUS injury risk, whose next one could disable him for life.
Any reasonable person HAS to see it that way. If Schoen doesn't, then he's not the right guy for the job and will probably be updating his resume by April of 2025.
I think most people are saying that... You don't need to yell it out.
had to fight literally to the last hour on a contract with Jones should be telling to anyone who looked at it, even speculatively.
It's clear to some degree Schoen and Daboll respected the work Jones put in, but don't trust the body of work or consistency enough to see "franchise guy", thus they overpaid on front end of deal. There weren't any immediate pivots off Jones or upgrade alternatives. Jimmy G? Thats the ghost of Daniel Jones right there.
Most folks in NFL were stunned Jones got about 40-41m est, and felt the 28-32m range was more than fair per season, because in reality it is a 2 year guarantee only. I strongly suspect Jones team were trying to hardball a 3rd year in with guarantees.
This to me is one of the more interesting aspects of what happened. Schoen clearly did have a walk away number, and did not want to make the longer term commitment. If the deal had been done around the 30-35m number everyone sort of imagined before the end of the season/playoffs, I dont think even now it would be looked at as so crazy. That's what a starter costs. But it's hard not wonder what the internal deliberations were. Was this Schoen and Daboll convinced Jones was the guy? Was this Mara making clear they should go the extra mile? That question of the internal evaluation of Jones still seems like the real mystery.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Fans continue to argue most times out of context on both sides
It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss
How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
No one has said it's the QB only. Cease. And, you're free to skip these threads.
Many continue with the out of context posts here everyday. The OL play has been terrible and that is why we were or are ranked last in the league for run and pass protection. Come on stop with cease.
Unless we believe Jones is lifting a Lombardi in the future
it's all really moot to dissect it much further. Any poster you read saying it's all on the QB isn't worth acknowledging as one who understands football.
OL stinks, so does Jones, "weapons" under-performing and weak, etc.
the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Would you trade Daniel Jones for Mac Jones? Mac had a better game against MIN last year and looked good against PHI week 1 this year.
is held back by the offensive line. It is a mess and has been to some extent for the entire time Jones has been here. Of course that impacts the production of the team.
But it is possible to tell the difference between a sack resulting from a guard whiffing on a block from a sack because the QB failed to identify a blitz or get the ball out on time. You can tell the difference between a pass on the money that was dropped by a WR and one that landed 3 yards in front of him. You can still evaluate a QB by watching the games.
Jones had a great game against Minnesota largely because he did not get pressured because their defense sucked. It is the same reason Mac Jones lit them up. Anyone QB in the NFL can produce when he has time and open receivers. But that is an unusual circumstance in the NFL which is what many of us are saying.
The Minnesota game is an outlier in his career. He gets full kudos for playing well in that game, but if you want to call it a historic performance (as many here do) you have to follow that with the fact that it was against an historically poor defense.
tl:dr - The performance we saw from Jones in Minnesota simply isn't regularly repeatable for him.
Given the high picks in the 2024 draft, and the prospects available, there may be no better time to get their next QB. It's fluid and might not align either, of course.
They could draft the wrong QB again, there's no protection against it. But, they need to admit the QB mistake and move off it, otherwise this franchise is stuck in the mud. This decision precedes any other roster decision, no matter all the other holes.
Hey JC, I don't disagree at all. I would have to think they are drafting a QB. But as you said - May be no better time - who can say? We don't even know where we are picking yet, or who will be available at our slot. If they have conviction that whichever QB is available when we pick, they will take him. If they are in love with one of the top 3 guys I am guessing we will see a trade up. But it's entirely possible none of those scenarios come to fruition in this draft as well. It is what it is, I just hope to GOD they keep drafting better and finally start fielding a better overall team. Or start coaching guys up. This team is just not good, overall, especially on the offensive side of the ball.
guaranteed for Jones next year are that he will be expensive and hurt. Even if he pushed to get back for the opener he likely wont be all the way back until 2025.
There is no way Daboll would let it all ride on Jones coming back and playing well. There needs to be something else.
the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Overcoming a bad OL is really difficult for any QB, I think that's fair. I also think it's almost impossible for a mediocre or worse QB to overcome just about any adverse circumstances. So a mediocre QB will make a bad OL look historically bad. A mediocre QB will make a journeyman WR corps look like they've never played football before. A mediocre QB will make accomplished coaches look like they're lost at sea.
And what makes it even more difficult to assess is when the QB's deficiencies aren't really physical. It's easy to see when a QB is a statue in the pocket and can't escape pressure. It's easy to see when a QB has a weak arm and can't make all the throws. Those sorts of flaws jump off the screen.
But as I mentioned yesterday, when the QB's fatal flaw isn't that he does anything wrong, but that it just takes him 0.3 seconds longer to do it, that's not so obvious. But that 0.3 seconds makes the OL look worse because the pressure gets there in that fraction of a second. It makes the receivers look bad because the defenders who get beaten on the break can recover in that fraction of a second.
Couple that with a reluctance to throw with anticipation and replace it with a preference for safer throws underneath, and now you're not only asking your QB to play faster than he's capable of, you're asking him to do it more often than his counterparts because he lacks the benefit of the chunk plays that lead to quicker scoring drives. So now your QB isn't doing anything obviously wrong, but somehow you're ending up with field goals instead of touchdowns.
Indecisiveness and slow processing might be the worst fatal flaw that a QB can possess because that QB won't obviously be at fault, but it is his fault. And that QB will look great in practice and in training camp because those flaws aren't exposed in those circumstances. And that QB will put up great numbers against horrible defenses because what makes them horrible is that they also take too long to react. Those horrible defenses are horrible because the extra 0.3 seconds don't result in pressure for them, and because their DBs don't recover in those 0.3 seconds.
DJ is, physically, everything you might ask for in a QB. And his mental deficiencies aren't exposed against bad defenses, because those deficiencies are on such a thin margin to begin with. But the upside is capped. And a championship is always going to be just out of reach when your QB is just a tick too slow and only has one reaction (run) to off-script scenarios.
RE: Unless we believe Jones is lifting a Lombardi in the future
it's all really moot to dissect it much further. Any poster you read saying it's all on the QB isn't worth acknowledging as one who understands football.
OL stinks, so does Jones, "weapons" under-performing and weak, etc.
Who ever said it's all on the QB? But it's more than fair to observe that functional QB play helps the OL. Many who still back Jones won't acknowledge this. Instead they say *improved* line play for Taylor/DeVito is explained by Pugh and others, and nothing to do with QB performance. At every turn we get excuses for Jones. Why is Jones so unlucky all the time? The OL is always uniquely bad for him, only. If only he had Justin Pugh....
the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Would you trade Daniel Jones for Mac Jones? Mac had a better game against MIN last year and looked good against PHI week 1 this year.
If contracts were equal then no I wouldn't. I think DJ is the better player by a good amount, but if I could trade away DJ's contract for Mac Jones I absolutely would.
Look, I know I am biased more towards liking him better than you guys do, but I do 100% think DJ was in an impossible situation when AT went down and they just decided to stick Ezeudu in there at LT. Look at what happened to Mahomes in the Super Bowl when saddled with a makeshift offensive line? That line was terrible, and it made Mahomes look human. It matters, it matters a LOT. And that's the kind of offensive line play I witnessed at the beginning of this year. Ezeudu misses a block that essentially eliminates Andrew Thomas AND Gano for us. That's horrible enough, but then they start him at LT? When they kept Peart as the swing? The OL was disastrous, literally the 1st few games of the year. Then Saquon goes out as well. It's not some mystery to me that DJ went backwards after that.
But I get it. I honestly will be shocked to hell if we don't draft a QB in this draft. I don't see how they can't, even if Devito plays lights out, and they keep Taylor.
Do you want to apply to apply your quote below to the last futile seasons of Eli Manning… that he was just a mediocrity that made a bad OL look historically bad?
“So a mediocre QB will make a bad OL look historically bad. A mediocre QB will make a journeyman WR corps look like they've never played football before. A mediocre QB will make accomplished coaches look like they're lost at sea.”
The Giants have (again) won just enough games to take themselves out of the running for just drafting one of the top 2 QBs.
If you give up the draft capital to draft Maye or Williams, you forgo fixing the OL again -- at least through the draft. Most available FA OLs are not starter-quality.
Then, if you fail to fix the OL, AGAIN, how do you put a rookie QB back there to take the kind of beating DJ's gotten? You'll ruin him FAST.
Jones is back next year because of the contract, regardless. IMO, he should start ahead of any rookie QB until the OL can protect better. Pay Jones to take the lumps.
QBs drafted later than round one have an even lower chances of becoming successful starters than the 1st rounders. Wasting a 2nd rounder on another Lauletta or Webb seems foolhardy with so many other holes to fix.
If they can't get one of the top QBs, I'd forgo drafting a QB this year, and address the other problems.
Thus, these are the possibilities I see:
If they go ALL IN to get Maye or Williams, they better break the bank on the best OLs they can get in FA (assuming good ones even make it to market). Then start Jones, regardless.
If they don't trade up for Maye or Williams, they should NOT, (IMO), pick a low first round/high second round QB. Get a vet backup (Taylor should go. He's more brittle than Jones). They could do this, but it seems like folly to me.
TRADE DOWN for more picks if possible, and fix as much as they can in the draft. (They won't, but I'd cluster draft OLs and pass rushers till they get it right).
Let Jones start next year, regardless -- they're paying him to start. Get his replacement when they can -- and when a replacement has a better chance to succeed -- with better protection and weapons.
The Giants don't need a new bridge guy. If you think Jones isn't the long term answer, Jones IS the bridge guy.
What are your thoughts on Sy's most recent review where he talked about the strides of the OL? Where should Schoen invest in the OL?
He's not nor is the organization giving up on Neal yet it appears. He was only drafted in 2022 7th overall. He's the right tackle. The left tackle was signed to a lucrative deal a few months ago. The center was just drafted in the 2nd round.
I'd expect swing tackle to be addressed, an interior guard signed and some depth later in the draft.
When people talk about extremes to fixing the OL, it's about development of what they have. As Sy has said, it's improving.
Not an uptick in production, when you're down to your 3rd QB.
This observation continently ignores the addition of Thomas Pugh and Schmitz in to Online with a healthy Saquon. It also ignores the caliber of competition
You want to move on from Jones, fine, find a better argument
Pugh has been a net negative in pass pro, and Jones had Waller while DeVito has not. Thomas is playing with a sprained MCL and isn't quite up to his all-pro level. Barkley also seems to be a bit banged up as well (which is the nature of playing RB in the NFL - you're going to be banged up in the second half of the season most years).
You can do this across the board. For the most part, it's the same team and same scheme. Arguing on the fringes when you're comparing a 5th year $40M QB to an UDFA rookie is kind of an indictment of the former no matter how you slice it, IMO.
The general consensus by the football people I ve heard speak on the topic is the Giants O line is better, than it was earlier in the year
You say that s not the case, ok, I think you re wrong.
I don’t think the Giants would have come anywhere near the success they had last season if DeVito were playing in place of Jones. If you want to contend there is minimal difference in the two, then I suppose you would disagree with that take as well.
Schoen determined that Jones’ play last season warranted a contract, I agree
For this season it has turned out to be a bad decision, we ll see what next season brings
your 3:47(?) post was something else. I’d add DJ’s lack of pocket presence and the fact that once he decides to make the pass he is slow getting out to his list of problems - both limit the offense in different ways - but wouldn’t want to ruin the perfection of your post.
Look, I know I am biased more towards liking him better than you guys do, but I do 100% think DJ was in an impossible situation when AT went down and they just decided to stick Ezeudu in there at LT. Look at what happened to Mahomes in the Super Bowl when saddled with a makeshift offensive line? That line was terrible, and it made Mahomes look human.
I think people need to rewatch that Super Bowl to see some of the superhuman plays Mahomes made to keep that game remotely competitive while KC's defense was getting run off the goddamn field in the 2nd quarter.
Yes, Mahomes didn't have a good game. Yes the OL situation was bad. If someone else was playing QB that day the Chiefs wouldn't have gained a yard. The fact that great QBs occasionally have bad games is not evidence that Daniel Jones (who occasionally has great games) is anywhere near that class.
I would expect Schoen to target a legit guard with either 2nd round pick. I'm talking no screwing around, a guy that can come in and impact the OL right away. And then I'd also expect Schoen to sign some value OTs to compete with Neal and swing tackle/depth for Thomas.
That way we are entering 2024 with legit talent on the OL and not just Thomas and a bunch of possibilities.
It's clear to some degree Schoen and Daboll respected the work Jones put in, but don't trust the body of work or consistency enough to see "franchise guy", thus they overpaid on front end of deal. There weren't any immediate pivots off Jones or upgrade alternatives. Jimmy G? Thats the ghost of Daniel Jones right there.
Most folks in NFL were stunned Jones got about 40-41m est, and felt the 28-32m range was more than fair per season, because in reality it is a 2 year guarantee only. I strongly suspect Jones team were trying to hardball a 3rd year in with guarantees.
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whether a QB entering his sixth year is the answer. Just think about that - going into his sixth season...
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
Also, the bad OL has been here for those 5 years, the bad receivers have been here for those 5 years, multiple coaching changes have been here for those 5 years. Is this a clue to what Mara meant when he said, "we did enough to ruin this kid." I know, in the hate DJ camp, these are excuses but to any reasonable person these are facts. Now, the hate group will come out with their facts, and cite some of DJs stats, but a lot of those negatives are due to what I stated above. Hey, has he been great no but he has performed under difficult circumstances. IMO, any other QB, even those considered elite, could not have fared better in the same situation.
It's cute that you think you're one of the "reasonable person[s]."
Surgery goes well.
Daniel does everything possible known to man to be cleared for contact by Late August.
He will be throwing soon.
He is in the facility every day.
He is organizing practices with teammates and they ALL show up.
Giants draft a QB in the first round.
Jones looks great by August. Arm looks stronger, all that shit. Teammates and coaches will be praising his work and marveling at his recovery.
He will start.
Just like they did to Eli when they drafted Jones, they will tell Jones he has to win.
If the OL isn't in shambles, I am going suggest he does win.
I think Jones eventually injures himself in 2024 and it is done. The rookie starts and we never go back.
Listen, this is not Madden.
They are not cutting Jones. Those that want that expose themselves as trolls.
If Jones is healthy by the start of the season ,even if Maye, Williams or Daniels is on the roster, it will not mean Mara is pulling the strings, that is the way of the NFL.
It's clear to some degree Schoen and Daboll respected the work Jones put in, but don't trust the body of work or consistency enough to see "franchise guy", thus they overpaid on front end of deal. There weren't any immediate pivots off Jones or upgrade alternatives. Jimmy G? Thats the ghost of Daniel Jones right there.
Most folks in NFL were stunned Jones got about 40-41m est, and felt the 28-32m range was more than fair per season, because in reality it is a 2 year guarantee only. I strongly suspect Jones team were trying to hardball a 3rd year in with guarantees.
What are you talking about? That deal was graded somewhere around a B+/A for the Giants here on BBI.
One thing I'll add about the reference to me specifically - I didn't dislike Jones from the start. I was taken with his Duke pro day (particularly in comparison to Haskins, who was popular here), and I thought the team needed to move on from Eli. Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
Anyway I liked Jones initially and wanted him to start from opening day in 2019. My reservations with him developed as I watched him play that season. I always had an open mind on Daniel Jones - he made up my mind with his play, and nothing more.
To be fully transparent here... those arguments were not all yours, I just used you as what I thought would be a funny counterweight to the "John Mara defense" since you've been the most vocal. So I grouped all of the key negative arguments under your name. Don't sue me for defamation! ;)
Surgery goes well.
Daniel does everything possible known to man to be cleared for contact by Late August.
He will be throwing soon.
He is in the facility every day.
He is organizing practices with teammates and they ALL show up.
Giants draft a QB in the first round.
Jones looks great by August. Arm looks stronger, all that shit. Teammates and coaches will be praising his work and marveling at his recovery.
He will start.
Just like they did to Eli when they drafted Jones, they will tell Jones he has to win.
If the OL isn't in shambles, I am going suggest he does win.
I think Jones eventually injures himself in 2024 and it is done. The rookie starts and we never go back.
Listen, this is not Madden.
They are not cutting Jones. Those that want that expose themselves as trolls.
If Jones is healthy by the start of the season ,even if Maye, Williams or Daniels is on the roster, it will not mean Mara is pulling the strings, that is the way of the NFL.
The part I bolded above is an enormous risk for the Giants. DJ has significant injury guarantees for 2025 and leaving the transition in the hands of fate/health could prove VERY costly for the Giants' 2025 cap outlook.
A lot of fans talk about the disadvantages that DJ has had to face in his time here with the Giants. Let's see how many will be willing to recognize the disadvantage the new QB will have to face when he has a roster that has a significant dead money gap to overcome relative to his opponents' rosters.
The draft is going to be crazy and when we win at least 1-2 more games this year and pick 10th it will either cost a lot to move up or we may reach at 10 and everyone freaks out.
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
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They arrived at a mostly 2 year contract because the Giants were picking 25th in the draft, had just made the playoffs, and Jones was reason 1A why they did.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I'm not as much a believer in Jones as you Ryan but this is a solid post and I think you're 100% right.
This is completely accurate in my view.
My neice called me the other day and was like this guy is our future. I can understand it... We just want some hope and right now at the QB position we don't really have much.
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I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
Mac Jones is not a dual threat. Week 9 isn't the playoffs. I know you don't want to concede the point.
It showed faith that they believed in him to keep improving upon that 2022 season but didn’t give him a blank check obviously.
Find me a GM who would have done anything different.
I smarter GM applied the Franchise Tag because Jones's 2022 performance was good, not great. One good performance should not have merited such a large reward.
So, make him do it again because we were willing to do it once before when we declined the 5th year option.
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Well written Eric. It's a good summary of where we've been and where we are. I hope the team reads it. They (and I mean ownership when I say this) need to take a long look at themselves and how they run the team.
One thing I'll add about the reference to me specifically - I didn't dislike Jones from the start. I was taken with his Duke pro day (particularly in comparison to Haskins, who was popular here), and I thought the team needed to move on from Eli. Though they made a mistake then similar to the one they're making now: they paid Eli AND drafted Jones. If we draft a QB in April we will be doing so without the rookie contract advantage of cap space.
Anyway I liked Jones initially and wanted him to start from opening day in 2019. My reservations with him developed as I watched him play that season. I always had an open mind on Daniel Jones - he made up my mind with his play, and nothing more.
To be fully transparent here... those arguments were not all yours, I just used you as what I thought would be a funny counterweight to the "John Mara defense" since you've been the most vocal. So I grouped all of the key negative arguments under your name. Don't sue me for defamation! ;)
Ha no worries. Thanks for being a conduit to the team.
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In comment 16308820 Sean said:
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The Giants passed on the 5th year option and did not initiate contract talks with Jones during the bye (early November). They did talk to Barkley about a contract though. At the time of the bye, the Giants were 6-2.
For the Giants to not entertain a contract then, what changed? After the bye, the Giants went 3-5-1 for the rest of the season. The biggest win was the road win in Washington which was carried by the defense (Thibodeaux strip sack for TD).
The Colts clincher was against an awful team led by Jeff Saturday, a team which mailed it in after giving up a historic lead the week prior.
So what changed? Did the Giants commit to Jones for 2023, 2024 and 2025 for $81M guaranteed based on a game against the Colts and a playoff win in Minnesota?
It seemed do be an awful process. And frankly unlike how Schoen has operated with other areas of the team.
The Jones contract seems like the outlier based on how the team had/has operated under Schoen. He did extend clear-cut building blocks like Thomas and Lawrence, but he passed on Williams, Jackon, and McKinney (the latter because he probably wanted more of a feel for the player in another season).
This is why I don't completely discount outside pressure, even though it mostly seems like Schoen and Daboll have been calling the shots.
Mara loves the kid, for reasons I’ll never understand. He definitely weighed in. Hell, he did it publicly multiple times with the media where he was fawning all over him.
He loves him b/c he played a part in picking him...is my guess.
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I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
I don't think it whitewashed it. This is just my opinion but coming off that season with what we played with, we should have been better this year. From the standpoint of a really good rookie center improvement, Consistent OGs, you are hoping Neal made improvements, a big-time weapon in Waller, added speed WRs like Paris Campbell/Hyatt, really good training camps, etc You kind of expect that we would progress second year in the system with all those hopes for improvement. Sadly none of that panned out with exception of the center probably. So sad that this is where we are.
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In comment 16308837 Chris684 said:
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I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
Mac Jones is not a dual threat. Week 9 isn't the playoffs. I know you don't want to concede the point.
Daniel Jones isn't a dual threat either. All he does well is run.
Daniel Jones isn't a dual threat either. All he does well is run.
And Eagles showed the entire NFL last year how to shut down his running. So he's not even that great at running anymore since he is just a straight line speed guy (Forest Gump) and not Lamar Jackson
Daniel Jones isn't a dual threat either. All he does well is run.
That was actually pretty funny. Well played...
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In comment 16308837 Chris684 said:
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I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
Mac Jones is not a dual threat. Week 9 isn't the playoffs. I know you don't want to concede the point.
I don't want to conceded that week 9 isn't the playoffs? Ummm, yes I know it is not the playoffs. I concede that excellent argument to you, sir.
Now can you concede the point that even bad QBs put up very good numbers against the 32nd ranked pass defense in the NFL in 2022?
Or does the fact that it was a playoff game suddenly make their defense more formidable?
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whether a QB entering his sixth year is the answer. Just think about that - going into his sixth season...
In a league where it's never been easier to pass the football, we are still debating whether Daniel Jones is the solution.
I am sticking with this point that other have wisely made - if Jones was with another team and available in free agency NOBODY with an IQ over 50 on this board would want anything to do with Jones.
NOBODY.
It's not going to happen because I do believe Schoen is fully committed to Jones, which makes you question him as a GM, but the best remedy is to cut the cord once the season ends with Jones and begun the search for a real franchise QB.
Also, the bad OL has been here for those 5 years, the bad receivers have been here for those 5 years, multiple coaching changes have been here for those 5 years. Is this a clue to what Mara meant when he said, "we did enough to ruin this kid." I know, in the hate DJ camp, these are excuses but to any reasonable person these are facts. Now, the hate group will come out with their facts, and cite some of DJs stats, but a lot of those negatives are due to what I stated above. Hey, has he been great no but he has performed under difficult circumstances. IMO, any other QB, even those considered elite, could not have fared better in the same situation.
Here's the line of demarcation on Jones: you believe he's been part of the problem or a victim of it.
If polled I'm sure nearly 100% of BBI would agree the entire team has been bad since 2019. The "hate group" calls them excuses because they're used to excuse (hah see how that works?) his poor performance instead of placing an iota of blame on DJ himself.
It was practically at the point where if he threw an interception it would be blamed on the relative humidity being too high in the stadium, or the wind was blowing out of the east instead of the north.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
That's a good point and I think an important one. The year the team is stuck with Jones' highest guaranteed money, don't make that the same year to start a 1st round QB's contract.
Another way to put it would be, should the team be deciding on the next QB's fifth year option after the guy has played through four season (or most of) or three or less seasons.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Any reasonable person HAS to see it that way. If Schoen doesn't, then he's not the right guy for the job and will probably be updating his resume by April of 2025.
Any reasonable person HAS to see it that way. If Schoen doesn't, then he's not the right guy for the job and will probably be updating his resume by April of 2025.
I think most people are saying that... You don't need to yell it out.
It's clear to some degree Schoen and Daboll respected the work Jones put in, but don't trust the body of work or consistency enough to see "franchise guy", thus they overpaid on front end of deal. There weren't any immediate pivots off Jones or upgrade alternatives. Jimmy G? Thats the ghost of Daniel Jones right there.
Most folks in NFL were stunned Jones got about 40-41m est, and felt the 28-32m range was more than fair per season, because in reality it is a 2 year guarantee only. I strongly suspect Jones team were trying to hardball a 3rd year in with guarantees.
This to me is one of the more interesting aspects of what happened. Schoen clearly did have a walk away number, and did not want to make the longer term commitment. If the deal had been done around the 30-35m number everyone sort of imagined before the end of the season/playoffs, I dont think even now it would be looked at as so crazy. That's what a starter costs. But it's hard not wonder what the internal deliberations were. Was this Schoen and Daboll convinced Jones was the guy? Was this Mara making clear they should go the extra mile? That question of the internal evaluation of Jones still seems like the real mystery.
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In comment 16308588 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16308413 joe48 said:
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It boils down to going all in for a new QB which will really set the franchise back if we miss
How much did it set the franchise back in 2019?
No . What I believe has set us back is all the coaching changes and poor drafts. It is not just the QB as so many try to spin.
No one has said it's the QB only. Cease. And, you're free to skip these threads.
Many continue with the out of context posts here everyday. The OL play has been terrible and that is why we were or are ranked last in the league for run and pass protection. Come on stop with cease.
OL stinks, so does Jones, "weapons" under-performing and weak, etc.
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the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Would you trade Daniel Jones for Mac Jones? Mac had a better game against MIN last year and looked good against PHI week 1 this year.
But it is possible to tell the difference between a sack resulting from a guard whiffing on a block from a sack because the QB failed to identify a blitz or get the ball out on time. You can tell the difference between a pass on the money that was dropped by a WR and one that landed 3 yards in front of him. You can still evaluate a QB by watching the games.
Jones had a great game against Minnesota largely because he did not get pressured because their defense sucked. It is the same reason Mac Jones lit them up. Anyone QB in the NFL can produce when he has time and open receivers. But that is an unusual circumstance in the NFL which is what many of us are saying.
The Minnesota game is an outlier in his career. He gets full kudos for playing well in that game, but if you want to call it a historic performance (as many here do) you have to follow that with the fact that it was against an historically poor defense.
tl:dr - The performance we saw from Jones in Minnesota simply isn't regularly repeatable for him.
They could draft the wrong QB again, there's no protection against it. But, they need to admit the QB mistake and move off it, otherwise this franchise is stuck in the mud. This decision precedes any other roster decision, no matter all the other holes.
Hey JC, I don't disagree at all. I would have to think they are drafting a QB. But as you said - May be no better time - who can say? We don't even know where we are picking yet, or who will be available at our slot. If they have conviction that whichever QB is available when we pick, they will take him. If they are in love with one of the top 3 guys I am guessing we will see a trade up. But it's entirely possible none of those scenarios come to fruition in this draft as well. It is what it is, I just hope to GOD they keep drafting better and finally start fielding a better overall team. Or start coaching guys up. This team is just not good, overall, especially on the offensive side of the ball.
There is no way Daboll would let it all ride on Jones coming back and playing well. There needs to be something else.
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the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Overcoming a bad OL is really difficult for any QB, I think that's fair. I also think it's almost impossible for a mediocre or worse QB to overcome just about any adverse circumstances. So a mediocre QB will make a bad OL look historically bad. A mediocre QB will make a journeyman WR corps look like they've never played football before. A mediocre QB will make accomplished coaches look like they're lost at sea.
And what makes it even more difficult to assess is when the QB's deficiencies aren't really physical. It's easy to see when a QB is a statue in the pocket and can't escape pressure. It's easy to see when a QB has a weak arm and can't make all the throws. Those sorts of flaws jump off the screen.
But as I mentioned yesterday, when the QB's fatal flaw isn't that he does anything wrong, but that it just takes him 0.3 seconds longer to do it, that's not so obvious. But that 0.3 seconds makes the OL look worse because the pressure gets there in that fraction of a second. It makes the receivers look bad because the defenders who get beaten on the break can recover in that fraction of a second.
Couple that with a reluctance to throw with anticipation and replace it with a preference for safer throws underneath, and now you're not only asking your QB to play faster than he's capable of, you're asking him to do it more often than his counterparts because he lacks the benefit of the chunk plays that lead to quicker scoring drives. So now your QB isn't doing anything obviously wrong, but somehow you're ending up with field goals instead of touchdowns.
Indecisiveness and slow processing might be the worst fatal flaw that a QB can possess because that QB won't obviously be at fault, but it is his fault. And that QB will look great in practice and in training camp because those flaws aren't exposed in those circumstances. And that QB will put up great numbers against horrible defenses because what makes them horrible is that they also take too long to react. Those horrible defenses are horrible because the extra 0.3 seconds don't result in pressure for them, and because their DBs don't recover in those 0.3 seconds.
DJ is, physically, everything you might ask for in a QB. And his mental deficiencies aren't exposed against bad defenses, because those deficiencies are on such a thin margin to begin with. But the upside is capped. And a championship is always going to be just out of reach when your QB is just a tick too slow and only has one reaction (run) to off-script scenarios.
OL stinks, so does Jones, "weapons" under-performing and weak, etc.
Who ever said it's all on the QB? But it's more than fair to observe that functional QB play helps the OL. Many who still back Jones won't acknowledge this. Instead they say *improved* line play for Taylor/DeVito is explained by Pugh and others, and nothing to do with QB performance. At every turn we get excuses for Jones. Why is Jones so unlucky all the time? The OL is always uniquely bad for him, only. If only he had Justin Pugh....
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In comment 16308924 Mike from Ohio said:
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the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Would you trade Daniel Jones for Mac Jones? Mac had a better game against MIN last year and looked good against PHI week 1 this year.
If contracts were equal then no I wouldn't. I think DJ is the better player by a good amount, but if I could trade away DJ's contract for Mac Jones I absolutely would.
Yes, they could have franchised him instead giving him 2 years, but that tag would have limited them with other moves.
They were in a tough spot, made a choice, which was at least justifiable in the moment, and it didn't work out. That shit happens.
The real test is this offseason. Do they quadruple down or do they pivot?
We'll see
Well played, Sir!
I agree, good post.
Look, I know I am biased more towards liking him better than you guys do, but I do 100% think DJ was in an impossible situation when AT went down and they just decided to stick Ezeudu in there at LT. Look at what happened to Mahomes in the Super Bowl when saddled with a makeshift offensive line? That line was terrible, and it made Mahomes look human. It matters, it matters a LOT. And that's the kind of offensive line play I witnessed at the beginning of this year. Ezeudu misses a block that essentially eliminates Andrew Thomas AND Gano for us. That's horrible enough, but then they start him at LT? When they kept Peart as the swing? The OL was disastrous, literally the 1st few games of the year. Then Saquon goes out as well. It's not some mystery to me that DJ went backwards after that.
But I get it. I honestly will be shocked to hell if we don't draft a QB in this draft. I don't see how they can't, even if Devito plays lights out, and they keep Taylor.
Do you want to apply to apply your quote below to the last futile seasons of Eli Manning… that he was just a mediocrity that made a bad OL look historically bad?
“So a mediocre QB will make a bad OL look historically bad. A mediocre QB will make a journeyman WR corps look like they've never played football before. A mediocre QB will make accomplished coaches look like they're lost at sea.”
If you give up the draft capital to draft Maye or Williams, you forgo fixing the OL again -- at least through the draft. Most available FA OLs are not starter-quality.
Then, if you fail to fix the OL, AGAIN, how do you put a rookie QB back there to take the kind of beating DJ's gotten? You'll ruin him FAST.
Jones is back next year because of the contract, regardless. IMO, he should start ahead of any rookie QB until the OL can protect better. Pay Jones to take the lumps.
QBs drafted later than round one have an even lower chances of becoming successful starters than the 1st rounders. Wasting a 2nd rounder on another Lauletta or Webb seems foolhardy with so many other holes to fix.
If they can't get one of the top QBs, I'd forgo drafting a QB this year, and address the other problems.
Thus, these are the possibilities I see:
If they go ALL IN to get Maye or Williams, they better break the bank on the best OLs they can get in FA (assuming good ones even make it to market). Then start Jones, regardless.
If they don't trade up for Maye or Williams, they should NOT, (IMO), pick a low first round/high second round QB. Get a vet backup (Taylor should go. He's more brittle than Jones). They could do this, but it seems like folly to me.
TRADE DOWN for more picks if possible, and fix as much as they can in the draft. (They won't, but I'd cluster draft OLs and pass rushers till they get it right).
Let Jones start next year, regardless -- they're paying him to start. Get his replacement when they can -- and when a replacement has a better chance to succeed -- with better protection and weapons.
The Giants don't need a new bridge guy. If you think Jones isn't the long term answer, Jones IS the bridge guy.
He's not nor is the organization giving up on Neal yet it appears. He was only drafted in 2022 7th overall. He's the right tackle. The left tackle was signed to a lucrative deal a few months ago. The center was just drafted in the 2nd round.
I'd expect swing tackle to be addressed, an interior guard signed and some depth later in the draft.
When people talk about extremes to fixing the OL, it's about development of what they have. As Sy has said, it's improving.
1.) pick one at the top of the draft
2.) pick one in the middle of the draft
3.) pick one late in the draft
4.) trade for one
5.) sign one as a FA
Remember - you're betting and you're only betting on one.
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In comment 16308359 Blueworm said:
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Not an uptick in production, when you're down to your 3rd QB.
This observation continently ignores the addition of Thomas Pugh and Schmitz in to Online with a healthy Saquon. It also ignores the caliber of competition
You want to move on from Jones, fine, find a better argument
Pugh has been a net negative in pass pro, and Jones had Waller while DeVito has not. Thomas is playing with a sprained MCL and isn't quite up to his all-pro level. Barkley also seems to be a bit banged up as well (which is the nature of playing RB in the NFL - you're going to be banged up in the second half of the season most years).
You can do this across the board. For the most part, it's the same team and same scheme. Arguing on the fringes when you're comparing a 5th year $40M QB to an UDFA rookie is kind of an indictment of the former no matter how you slice it, IMO.
The general consensus by the football people I ve heard speak on the topic is the Giants O line is better, than it was earlier in the year
You say that s not the case, ok, I think you re wrong.
I don’t think the Giants would have come anywhere near the success they had last season if DeVito were playing in place of Jones. If you want to contend there is minimal difference in the two, then I suppose you would disagree with that take as well.
Schoen determined that Jones’ play last season warranted a contract, I agree
For this season it has turned out to be a bad decision, we ll see what next season brings
Look, I know I am biased more towards liking him better than you guys do, but I do 100% think DJ was in an impossible situation when AT went down and they just decided to stick Ezeudu in there at LT. Look at what happened to Mahomes in the Super Bowl when saddled with a makeshift offensive line? That line was terrible, and it made Mahomes look human.
I think people need to rewatch that Super Bowl to see some of the superhuman plays Mahomes made to keep that game remotely competitive while KC's defense was getting run off the goddamn field in the 2nd quarter.
Yes, Mahomes didn't have a good game. Yes the OL situation was bad. If someone else was playing QB that day the Chiefs wouldn't have gained a yard. The fact that great QBs occasionally have bad games is not evidence that Daniel Jones (who occasionally has great games) is anywhere near that class.
That way we are entering 2024 with legit talent on the OL and not just Thomas and a bunch of possibilities.