I know we are supposed to giver Ezeudu and McKethan a bit more time to develop considering they were mid rounders and have dealt with injuries, but they don't appear to have that much on field talent.
What are your thoughts on Sy's most recent review where he talked about the strides of the OL? Where should Schoen invest in the OL?
He's not nor is the organization giving up on Neal yet it appears. He was only drafted in 2022 7th overall. He's the right tackle. The left tackle was signed to a lucrative deal a few months ago. The center was just drafted in the 2nd round.
I'd expect swing tackle to be addressed, an interior guard signed and some depth later in the draft.
When people talk about extremes to fixing the OL, it's about development of what they have. As Sy has said, it's improving.
You could be right about the actions the Giants take this off-season in regard to the OL.
As for Sy’s review, I found it highly informative. The one quibble I had is that Justin Pugh should have gotten a Dud award instead of Saquon Barkley.
I am growing a little worried about Sy’s running commentary on JMS having difficulty when he has to travel any distance. I don’t know what to make of that and I’m not sure if he can improve that aspect of his game.
IMO, the OL is only set at LT and C and that everything else is up in the air. I like the way Evan Neal run blocks and I believe he can pass block in a more confined area… that is why I am gung-ho at moving him inside. I guess the Giants can keep throwing him out there at RT and continue to cross their fingers. Assuming he isn’t moved inside, I believe the Giants need two brand new guards, with all the other current guards fighting for back-up rolls.
is who he is. After six years in the NFL, you can get a handle on a player. The problem is, he's been injury prone, and now has 2 neck injuries and an ACL. He's not going to get any faster, or learn to process any quicker.
The issue right now is the draft. What to do? If the Giants can't (or won't) pay the costs to get up to the top three selections, then I think there are only two other alternatives:
1) Hope that a QB drops in the draft into their range. That DOES happen (Lamar Jackson, for example). Teams do tend to out think themselves.
2) Save your top choices for rebulding the lines, and try to get a reclamation project. I think there are three QB's that are having horrible years, but could potentially come back to be quality NFL QB's under Daboll.
First would be Justin Fields. If Chicago drafts a QB, the Bears would listen to offers. I think he's a better version of Jones, and would thrive in NY.
Second, Mac Jones. No, I'm not kidding. This kid had all the qualities coming out of college, but the Pats did him no favors with their OC's (Judge???). Yes, he looks horrible now, but that's when you want to get him, when his value is low. I think he would be perfect for sitting behind Jones next year, while Daboll works on him.
Third, (hold your nose!) Zack Wilson. The Jets destroyed this guy, there's no way they can bring him back next year. But he has an arm, and he was considered a high draft choice coming out. Wilson has had HORRENDOUS OC's (Hackett sucks beyond belief, he's on there as a Rodgers buddy)Again, another QB Daboll could work magic on!
We've seen in Denver what good Offensive coach (Sean Payton) can do with a QB that was considered washed (Russell Wilson).
I'm not saying that these are the preferred ways to go, but I just want to point out there are other ways to go if the Giants don't have the ammunition to go up in the draft.
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
It would have required ownership to sign off on it.
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
And the reason they’ve never been better than 16th is because Saquon Barkley sucks? Or, because the entire team around Saquon Barkley has sucked for the past 6 seasons? Or, do you have some thing else in mind?
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
After a decade of losing the Giants not only make the playoffs but win a play off game.
You suggesting they should have allowed the two players most responsible for that success to walk is an unreasonable take.
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
It seems playoff wins by the giants vs Minnesota are fools gold. There was the nfc championship that the ravens coach said they were all farts and giggles about.
The general consensus by the football people I ve heard speak on the topic is the Giants O line is better, than it was earlier in the year
You say that s not the case, ok, I think you re wrong.
I'm not saying the OL isn't playing better. Certainly having even a damaged Thomas is better than his replacements were. But Pugh isn't really part of the improvement, in terms of pass protection. And I didn't refute you on Schmitz, although he's been up and down (as most rookies are).
I just don't think the OL is the entire story. If it were, then no one should ever be in favor of any QB contracts beyond a rookie deal, because they're all just passengers on the OL train.
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
Quote:
"I told Saquon we want him to be a Giant for his entire career," Mara told reporters at the NFL’s owners meetings in Phoenix, via ESPN. "He provides leadership, he's a great player and we'd like to be able to get something done with him at some point. The running back market is what it is right now, but I'm still hopeful at some point we will come to an agreement."
No one wanted Barkley out of the halls of 1925 Giants Way more than me. But when you see these public quotes by Mara, you can certainly understand why Team Barkley was so irritated by the contract talk...
get a QB in the draft. They cannot sell anyone that Jones will be back and be able to play without getting hurt again. I see it like the Packers did a few years ago when they drafted a QB to backup Rogers
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
And the reason they’ve never been better than 16th is because Saquon Barkley sucks? Or, because the entire team around Saquon Barkley has sucked for the past 6 seasons? Or, do you have some thing else in mind?
Where is the line drawn?
How do we decide who the guys are that are causing the suck and who the guys are that are victimized by it?
Seems like it's mostly driven by the fan favorites being victimized while the rest of the guys are the fault-bearers.
What are your thoughts on Sy's most recent review where he talked about the strides of the OL? Where should Schoen invest in the OL?
He's not nor is the organization giving up on Neal yet it appears. He was only drafted in 2022 7th overall. He's the right tackle. The left tackle was signed to a lucrative deal a few months ago. The center was just drafted in the 2nd round.
I'd expect swing tackle to be addressed, an interior guard signed and some depth later in the draft.
When people talk about extremes to fixing the OL, it's about development of what they have. As Sy has said, it's improving.
Improving from ranking last in the league is that some kind of joke. Get some new talent. Our competition in the NFC East is deep in the trenches. We tried to juggle the guys over the summer and it failed.
I’m more of a pro Jones than anti Jones guy, but your main point is spot on. Injury history alone, the Giants can’t rely on Jones and need to use one of their first three picks on a QB.
In the THE NEVER-ENDING DEBATE paragraph (should be five seasons):
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
And the reason they’ve never been better than 16th is because Saquon Barkley sucks? Or, because the entire team around Saquon Barkley has sucked for the past 6 seasons? Or, do you have some thing else in mind?
Where is the line drawn?
How do we decide who the guys are that are causing the suck and who the guys are that are victimized by it?
Seems like it's mostly driven by the fan favorites being victimized while the rest of the guys are the fault-bearers.
I honestly think there is plenty of blame to go around. We have holes in obvious places, and very little depth as it is... but Coaching should not get a pass, especially for the way preseason was handled. This team was not nearly ready for primetime this year. So many head-scratching roster decisions. If they were going to build off of last year, fine... but then do it... lol. Keep some continuity with the OL. Feliciano was no great shakes but he was better guard/center than Ben Bredeson. Why keep Lemieux and Peart and jettison those two? Made no sense. And anyway regardless, make your decisions/changes in camp and for Gods sakes play your new OL starters together in preseason for more than 5 minutes/ONE SERIES (against the freaking PANTHERS), especially when you know Dann Quinn and the Cowboys are coming to town. That unpreparedness caused a landslide on opening night that this team never recovered from... Mostly because it caused an injury to our arguably 2 best players on the team in the first drive of the game.
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
After a decade of losing the Giants not only make the playoffs but win a play off game.
You suggesting they should have allowed the two players most responsible for that success to walk is an unreasonable take.
The success was fleeting and somewhat apparent to see, making it a reasonable take.
Some decisions are tough ones in the moment, and not always easy for fans to understand. Or even guys that own football franchises. This was an example.
The general consensus by the football people I ve heard speak on the topic is the Giants O line is better, than it was earlier in the year
You say that s not the case, ok, I think you re wrong.
I'm not saying the OL isn't playing better. Certainly having even a damaged Thomas is better than his replacements were. But Pugh isn't really part of the improvement, in terms of pass protection. And I didn't refute you on Schmitz, although he's been up and down (as most rookies are).
I just don't think the OL is the entire story. If it were, then no one should ever be in favor of any QB contracts beyond a rookie deal, because they're all just passengers on the OL train.
It s not the whole story. I also understand Giants can’t go into next season with Daniel as the only legit starter. I just don’t think DeVito is the other guy.
The Jones draft pick may be the most maligned draft pick we've ever witnessed. Almost nobody understood it, and it is still widely considered a major reach. Then we doubled down to disastrous results out of the gates.
A triple-down would put fan apathy into another stratosphere.
I forgot what poster posed the ?, but it was along the lines of 'Can we win a Super Bowl with Daniel Jones?'
Sure, I guess its possible. Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco, & Nick Foles all won Super Bowls. But most Super Bowls are won with elite QBs, i.e. TB12, Mahomes, Montana, etc.
Daniel Jones will never be confused with the Montanas of the world. He's more in the Brad Johnson category.
He had a good season last year. He did help us get to the playoffs & played well in the WC game, though again...that Vikes defense was trash. But its pretty apparent that Dabs/Kafka designed an offensive game plan for him that had a time limit. Once defenses adjusted...well, it was over. And it speaks volume to me that both TT and DeVito played better this year than Jones.
To piggyback on Sean's comment, let's just move on. This is a failed experiment. I wish the kid the best going forward, but its over. Going into 2024 & hoping that he'll see the light in his SIXTH season...it ain't happening.
Would have liked to see Jones play the entire game against Vegas, and we likely beat the Jets if he’s the QB in that game, but whatever. Is what it is.
I have been racking my brain trying to come up with a Plan B and then it hit we. We should trade for this Mahomes guy I hear everyone talking about. I should think our #1 and those 2 seconds just might do it. KC could then restock their receiver corps. Win-win for everyone.
SFG, saying Taylor and DeVito are playing better than Jones needs a little bit of nuance.
OL is playing a lot better. And those QBs have not shown the playmaking that we saw against Arizona for a brief period.
DeVito has played Vegas, Dallas, Washington and New England. Not really counting the Jets game because he didn’t throw it.
DeVito threw 2 TDs against Dallas which is a part of the whole 7 TD argument. Well, he had 86 yards passing and a bad rating in that game as well.
Here’s the issue that you continue to ignore. It’s been said 1000 times but the fact any of us are having a debate as to WHY Taylor and DeVito have played better is a major issue. We can make excuses and say the OL is magically playing better or the schedule is softer all we want, Some of that may be true. But the bottom line is…we should not be debating why a UDFA rookie that was on the practice squad 3 weeks ago is playing better than our $40M 5th year franchise QB.
That shouldn’t just be alarming to some of us. It should be alarming to every Giants fan on the planet.
Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Eric in Li posted the example of Alex Smith as first round quarterback who was written off and resurrected his career.
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
I'm not answering your question. But wanted to let you know that at least Alex Smith was outstanding in college for Utah. His senior year he was 32/4, 9+YPA, 68% comp%. And Utah was in a major bowl. So, at least he showed high level play before he entered the NFL...
But it is possible to tell the difference between a sack resulting from a guard whiffing on a block from a sack because the QB failed to identify a blitz or get the ball out on time.
you can rarely figure all of this out based upon the TV broadcast. You need to see the entire field to know whether anyone was open at the time when the QB was getting sacked or in a "too-late-to-throw" situation. You also need to have a view of whether the QB's vision was blocked or passing lane was impacted by the pass rush.
So many things that coaches can figure out by watching all of the film angles that fans have no clue about.
In the end, I am sure there are plenty of situations where the QB is at fault but also many others where the opposite is true despite what fans may think from their couches.
BigBlueShock - do you remember the first Dallas, Seattle, SF, and Miami games?
As soon as Jones got the snap, he was under fire. For the majority of those games.
Kurt Warner went as far as to say that playing the QB position is impossible with the way that OL was playing at that time.
He didn’t help his cause this year at all but let’s be realistic about that part of it.
He was under siege a bunch, yes. He also left plays on the field, missed open receivers, contributed to some of the sacks, etc. I get it. The OL was bad. But 4 1/2 years of excuses have just completely worn me out. He’s absolutely been dealt a bad hand. And I’m just speaking for myself but I’m damned sick and tired of watching pathetic football with an occasional decent game against trash defenses. Not nearly all Jones’ fault at all but he’s had the longest leash and most excuses. I’m just tired of it.
RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Eric in Li posted the example of Alex Smith as first round quarterback who was written off and resurrected his career.
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
I'm not answering your question. But wanted to let you know that at least Alex Smith was outstanding in college for Utah. His senior year he was 32/4, 9+YPA, 68% comp%. And Utah was in a major bowl. So, at least he showed high level play before he entered the NFL...
and 0 winning seasons in his first 6 years in SF and 2 more INTs than TDs.
2011 year 7 (age 27) 13-3, 17 tds, 5 ints. harbough year 1 (nyg NFCCG loss).
regardless of what we think of jones, coming back healthy isn't a guarantee,
we all know the odds of 1st round rookie qbs busting,
if it were my job on the line, the obvious choice for me would be rostering 1 of each and hoping one works out. sort it out on the field. they cant ask for much better of a qb draft to find one they like.
RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
This is why there is so much issues on this site. People will discount Jones because he beat a bad Def Minny last year is the playoffs at their house. They will then turn around and say Devito played better than Jones when it is clear DeVito has much more time and this chart shows it. The OL was historically bad for Jones.
Then on the other side at what point does DJ get the blame here. He has had 5 years and hasn't been what we need him to be. He stares down WRs, gets hurt, and is slower to process than the NFL needs.
The thing is... both sides are right. I assume it is nonstop arguing because no one feels heard. That is what makes Eric's article so good. It lays it all out.
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
Not to worry. The new QB will make the OL better. We are set. Just add a new coach and plug in a FA and everything will jell.
Do you think Daniel Jones will put the Giants in contention for a championship over the next three years?
Knowing which QB wont get you to a championship doesnt get you all that far to finding the guy who will. maybe it gets you on the road but they should be there any way since jones is hurt.
Finding the QB who will get them to a championship is the hard part that people forget that kind of matters most.
So fucking sick of his argument that if Jones had better OL or receiving options he'd be so much better. The dude was drafted sixth overall. Perhaps-based on his draft status-he'd elevate others than the other way around? And STFU with this 'Well, his OL sucks'...so did the '11 Giants OL & Eli led us to a Lombardi. The Bengals OL sucked & Burrow was doing fine in this league before he got injured.
For the love of God, accept Jones for what he is...he's an average QB, at best.
I honestly can't believe we're discussing someone of his caliber going into his sixth season & still people are holding out hope. The ship has sailed.
So fucking sick of his argument that if Jones had better OL or receiving options he'd be so much better. The dude was drafted sixth overall. Perhaps-based on his draft status-he'd elevate others than the other way around? And STFU with this 'Well, his OL sucks'...so did the '11 Giants OL & Eli led us to a Lombardi. The Bengals OL sucked & Burrow was doing fine in this league before he got injured.
For the love of God, accept Jones for what he is...he's an average QB, at best.
I honestly can't believe we're discussing someone of his caliber going into his sixth season & still people are holding out hope. The ship has sailed.
Here, here. It's exhausting, this unnecessary psychodrama we find ourselves in
and 0 winning seasons in his first 6 years in SF and 2 more INTs than TDs.
2011 year 7 (age 27) 13-3, 17 tds, 5 ints. harbough year 1 (nyg NFCCG loss).
regardless of what we think of jones, coming back healthy isn't a guarantee,
we all know the odds of 1st round rookie qbs busting,
if it were my job on the line, the obvious choice for me would be rostering 1 of each and hoping one works out. sort it out on the field. they cant ask for much better of a qb draft to find one they like.
Figuring it out on the field is going to be complicated if Jones is PUP all off season.
and 0 winning seasons in his first 6 years in SF and 2 more INTs than TDs.
2011 year 7 (age 27) 13-3, 17 tds, 5 ints. harbough year 1 (nyg NFCCG loss).
regardless of what we think of jones, coming back healthy isn't a guarantee,
we all know the odds of 1st round rookie qbs busting,
if it were my job on the line, the obvious choice for me would be rostering 1 of each and hoping one works out. sort it out on the field. they cant ask for much better of a qb draft to find one they like.
Figuring it out on the field is going to be complicated if Jones is PUP all off season.
not really, then you get a first round pick who gets to take a ton of reps in the summer and gets a real chance to win a job. that possibility is very much part of the "sort it out on the field".
thats why i think they are going to invest a first and not just take some throwaway developmental guy who may or may not be that much different than devito. has devito played much different than levis, willis, ridder, howell, etc? his tools arent as good but performance wise id say no.
if jones makes it back healthy in time i think it's likely he'd be out a rookie but not impossible he doesnt. and even if you go in with 2 healthy as we've seen you may end up playing both if 1 gets hurt.
SFG, would you like to go over the OL and skill players from last season, and the Giants overall finish in the conference?
Can we stop acting like Jones has never lifted up the team?
Can we stop acting like Jones was only reason we won games? Barkley carried the offense more than Jones did in the first half. The defense had some real big games.
Jones played well at times last season. He was instrumental part of the reason they won some of those games. But he was not only one.
He's not nor is the organization giving up on Neal yet it appears. He was only drafted in 2022 7th overall. He's the right tackle. The left tackle was signed to a lucrative deal a few months ago. The center was just drafted in the 2nd round.
I'd expect swing tackle to be addressed, an interior guard signed and some depth later in the draft.
When people talk about extremes to fixing the OL, it's about development of what they have. As Sy has said, it's improving.
You could be right about the actions the Giants take this off-season in regard to the OL.
As for Sy’s review, I found it highly informative. The one quibble I had is that Justin Pugh should have gotten a Dud award instead of Saquon Barkley.
I am growing a little worried about Sy’s running commentary on JMS having difficulty when he has to travel any distance. I don’t know what to make of that and I’m not sure if he can improve that aspect of his game.
IMO, the OL is only set at LT and C and that everything else is up in the air. I like the way Evan Neal run blocks and I believe he can pass block in a more confined area… that is why I am gung-ho at moving him inside. I guess the Giants can keep throwing him out there at RT and continue to cross their fingers. Assuming he isn’t moved inside, I believe the Giants need two brand new guards, with all the other current guards fighting for back-up rolls.
Chiefs 16 times 116 yards.
Eagles 8 times for 30 yards
Giants RB production against SF, Miami and Seattle: 9/22, 18/39, 22/46. One of the worst three game stretches you will see and probably hard to find.
Those games were played w/o both SB and AT. Take a look with just SB back in after.
A few are really undervaluing how critical SB is to this offense. Then they got AT back a couple games later.
It does not change the place of where the Giants are w/ Jones but.....
The issue right now is the draft. What to do? If the Giants can't (or won't) pay the costs to get up to the top three selections, then I think there are only two other alternatives:
1) Hope that a QB drops in the draft into their range. That DOES happen (Lamar Jackson, for example). Teams do tend to out think themselves.
2) Save your top choices for rebulding the lines, and try to get a reclamation project. I think there are three QB's that are having horrible years, but could potentially come back to be quality NFL QB's under Daboll.
First would be Justin Fields. If Chicago drafts a QB, the Bears would listen to offers. I think he's a better version of Jones, and would thrive in NY.
Second, Mac Jones. No, I'm not kidding. This kid had all the qualities coming out of college, but the Pats did him no favors with their OC's (Judge???). Yes, he looks horrible now, but that's when you want to get him, when his value is low. I think he would be perfect for sitting behind Jones next year, while Daboll works on him.
Third, (hold your nose!) Zack Wilson. The Jets destroyed this guy, there's no way they can bring him back next year. But he has an arm, and he was considered a high draft choice coming out. Wilson has had HORRENDOUS OC's (Hackett sucks beyond belief, he's on there as a Rodgers buddy)Again, another QB Daboll could work magic on!
We've seen in Denver what good Offensive coach (Sean Payton) can do with a QB that was considered washed (Russell Wilson).
I'm not saying that these are the preferred ways to go, but I just want to point out there are other ways to go if the Giants don't have the ammunition to go up in the draft.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
It would have required ownership to sign off on it.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
And the reason they’ve never been better than 16th is because Saquon Barkley sucks? Or, because the entire team around Saquon Barkley has sucked for the past 6 seasons? Or, do you have some thing else in mind?
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
After a decade of losing the Giants not only make the playoffs but win a play off game.
You suggesting they should have allowed the two players most responsible for that success to walk is an unreasonable take.
Quote:
I don’t think it was just 1 game as you have suggested at times. I think he went a full season where he did everything they asked of him and then in the playoffs he kind of blew them away with his performance. For those who are being honest, the Minnesota game was super impressive, Minnesota defense or not and there aren’t a lot of guys putting up performances like that.
Mac Jones stat line vs. Minnesota in week 9 of 2022
28/39 (71.8%) 382 yards 2 TDs / 0 INTs
There were A LOT of guys putting up performances like that against Minnesota in 2022, including guys that most agree are terrible NFL QBs.
The Minnesota win was nice, but it was fool's gold. It whitewashed a lot of deficiencies with a feel good moment.
It seems playoff wins by the giants vs Minnesota are fools gold. There was the nfc championship that the ravens coach said they were all farts and giggles about.
You say that s not the case, ok, I think you re wrong.
I'm not saying the OL isn't playing better. Certainly having even a damaged Thomas is better than his replacements were. But Pugh isn't really part of the improvement, in terms of pass protection. And I didn't refute you on Schmitz, although he's been up and down (as most rookies are).
I just don't think the OL is the entire story. If it were, then no one should ever be in favor of any QB contracts beyond a rookie deal, because they're all just passengers on the OL train.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
No one wanted Barkley out of the halls of 1925 Giants Way more than me. But when you see these public quotes by Mara, you can certainly understand why Team Barkley was so irritated by the contract talk...
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The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
And the reason they’ve never been better than 16th is because Saquon Barkley sucks? Or, because the entire team around Saquon Barkley has sucked for the past 6 seasons? Or, do you have some thing else in mind?
Where is the line drawn?
How do we decide who the guys are that are causing the suck and who the guys are that are victimized by it?
Seems like it's mostly driven by the fan favorites being victimized while the rest of the guys are the fault-bearers.
He's not nor is the organization giving up on Neal yet it appears. He was only drafted in 2022 7th overall. He's the right tackle. The left tackle was signed to a lucrative deal a few months ago. The center was just drafted in the 2nd round.
I'd expect swing tackle to be addressed, an interior guard signed and some depth later in the draft.
When people talk about extremes to fixing the OL, it's about development of what they have. As Sy has said, it's improving.
Improving from ranking last in the league is that some kind of joke. Get some new talent. Our competition in the NFC East is deep in the trenches. We tried to juggle the guys over the summer and it failed.
I’m more of a pro Jones than anti Jones guy, but your main point is spot on. Injury history alone, the Giants can’t rely on Jones and need to use one of their first three picks on a QB.
In the THE NEVER-ENDING DEBATE paragraph (should be five seasons):
Three of his fives season have just been awful.
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In comment 16309084 Go Terps said:
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The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
And the reason they’ve never been better than 16th is because Saquon Barkley sucks? Or, because the entire team around Saquon Barkley has sucked for the past 6 seasons? Or, do you have some thing else in mind?
Where is the line drawn?
How do we decide who the guys are that are causing the suck and who the guys are that are victimized by it?
Seems like it's mostly driven by the fan favorites being victimized while the rest of the guys are the fault-bearers.
I honestly think there is plenty of blame to go around. We have holes in obvious places, and very little depth as it is... but Coaching should not get a pass, especially for the way preseason was handled. This team was not nearly ready for primetime this year. So many head-scratching roster decisions. If they were going to build off of last year, fine... but then do it... lol. Keep some continuity with the OL. Feliciano was no great shakes but he was better guard/center than Ben Bredeson. Why keep Lemieux and Peart and jettison those two? Made no sense. And anyway regardless, make your decisions/changes in camp and for Gods sakes play your new OL starters together in preseason for more than 5 minutes/ONE SERIES (against the freaking PANTHERS), especially when you know Dann Quinn and the Cowboys are coming to town. That unpreparedness caused a landslide on opening night that this team never recovered from... Mostly because it caused an injury to our arguably 2 best players on the team in the first drive of the game.
We all know the 4-5 handles by now. No disrespect-Do these people have jobs? Families? It’s literally 24/7/365. Who has this kind of free time?
I’m seriously wondering if it’s an AI spam bot.
Even the game review thread. This is what we want the website to be? Even the site owner is doing it.
Jones sucks and Mara meddles too much. What drives people here writing this over and over again multiple times per day?
Just my 2 cents…..which I’m sure is unwelcomed…
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The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
After a decade of losing the Giants not only make the playoffs but win a play off game.
You suggesting they should have allowed the two players most responsible for that success to walk is an unreasonable take.
The success was fleeting and somewhat apparent to see, making it a reasonable take.
Some decisions are tough ones in the moment, and not always easy for fans to understand. Or even guys that own football franchises. This was an example.
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The general consensus by the football people I ve heard speak on the topic is the Giants O line is better, than it was earlier in the year
You say that s not the case, ok, I think you re wrong.
I'm not saying the OL isn't playing better. Certainly having even a damaged Thomas is better than his replacements were. But Pugh isn't really part of the improvement, in terms of pass protection. And I didn't refute you on Schmitz, although he's been up and down (as most rookies are).
I just don't think the OL is the entire story. If it were, then no one should ever be in favor of any QB contracts beyond a rookie deal, because they're all just passengers on the OL train.
It s not the whole story. I also understand Giants can’t go into next season with Daniel as the only legit starter. I just don’t think DeVito is the other guy.
You cannot just look at stats and assume that the player is going to be awesome in the pros.
Hendon Hooker was able to throw one route. And was still going to be a day1/2 pick if he didn’t get hurt.
Daniel’s mechanics don’t have any major flaws from anyone I’ve spoken to or read.
With a better offensive line and better weapons Daniel Jones most certainly would have been better.
With a better quarterback and a better offensive line, Saquon Barkley most certainly would have been on more winning teams.
We can all debate the degree, but that doesn't seem like a controversial take.
But all that matters now is do you believe Schoen and Daboll should bet their jobs that specifically Jones is a cornerstone on a championship team?
Because I think it's as simple as that as of today.
A triple-down would put fan apathy into another stratosphere.
Sure, I guess its possible. Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco, & Nick Foles all won Super Bowls. But most Super Bowls are won with elite QBs, i.e. TB12, Mahomes, Montana, etc.
Daniel Jones will never be confused with the Montanas of the world. He's more in the Brad Johnson category.
He had a good season last year. He did help us get to the playoffs & played well in the WC game, though again...that Vikes defense was trash. But its pretty apparent that Dabs/Kafka designed an offensive game plan for him that had a time limit. Once defenses adjusted...well, it was over. And it speaks volume to me that both TT and DeVito played better this year than Jones.
To piggyback on Sean's comment, let's just move on. This is a failed experiment. I wish the kid the best going forward, but its over. Going into 2024 & hoping that he'll see the light in his SIXTH season...it ain't happening.
OL is playing a lot better. And those QBs have not shown the playmaking that we saw against Arizona for a brief period.
DeVito has played Vegas, Dallas, Washington and New England. Not really counting the Jets game because he didn’t throw it.
DeVito threw 2 TDs against Dallas which is a part of the whole 7 TD argument. Well, he had 86 yards passing and a bad rating in that game as well.
Yep, not great.
OL is playing a lot better. And those QBs have not shown the playmaking that we saw against Arizona for a brief period.
DeVito has played Vegas, Dallas, Washington and New England. Not really counting the Jets game because he didn’t throw it.
DeVito threw 2 TDs against Dallas which is a part of the whole 7 TD argument. Well, he had 86 yards passing and a bad rating in that game as well.
Here’s the issue that you continue to ignore. It’s been said 1000 times but the fact any of us are having a debate as to WHY Taylor and DeVito have played better is a major issue. We can make excuses and say the OL is magically playing better or the schedule is softer all we want, Some of that may be true. But the bottom line is…we should not be debating why a UDFA rookie that was on the practice squad 3 weeks ago is playing better than our $40M 5th year franchise QB.
That shouldn’t just be alarming to some of us. It should be alarming to every Giants fan on the planet.
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
As soon as Jones got the snap, he was under fire. For the majority of those games.
Kurt Warner went as far as to say that playing the QB position is impossible with the way that OL was playing at that time.
He didn’t help his cause this year at all but let’s be realistic about that part of it.
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
I'm not answering your question. But wanted to let you know that at least Alex Smith was outstanding in college for Utah. His senior year he was 32/4, 9+YPA, 68% comp%. And Utah was in a major bowl. So, at least he showed high level play before he entered the NFL...
But it is possible to tell the difference between a sack resulting from a guard whiffing on a block from a sack because the QB failed to identify a blitz or get the ball out on time.
you can rarely figure all of this out based upon the TV broadcast. You need to see the entire field to know whether anyone was open at the time when the QB was getting sacked or in a "too-late-to-throw" situation. You also need to have a view of whether the QB's vision was blocked or passing lane was impacted by the pass rush.
So many things that coaches can figure out by watching all of the film angles that fans have no clue about.
In the end, I am sure there are plenty of situations where the QB is at fault but also many others where the opposite is true despite what fans may think from their couches.
As soon as Jones got the snap, he was under fire. For the majority of those games.
Kurt Warner went as far as to say that playing the QB position is impossible with the way that OL was playing at that time.
He didn’t help his cause this year at all but let’s be realistic about that part of it.
He was under siege a bunch, yes. He also left plays on the field, missed open receivers, contributed to some of the sacks, etc. I get it. The OL was bad. But 4 1/2 years of excuses have just completely worn me out. He’s absolutely been dealt a bad hand. And I’m just speaking for myself but I’m damned sick and tired of watching pathetic football with an occasional decent game against trash defenses. Not nearly all Jones’ fault at all but he’s had the longest leash and most excuses. I’m just tired of it.
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
Not to worry. The new QB will make the OL better. We are set. Just add a new coach and plug in a FA and everything will jell.
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Eric in Li posted the example of Alex Smith as first round quarterback who was written off and resurrected his career.
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
I'm not answering your question. But wanted to let you know that at least Alex Smith was outstanding in college for Utah. His senior year he was 32/4, 9+YPA, 68% comp%. And Utah was in a major bowl. So, at least he showed high level play before he entered the NFL...
and 0 winning seasons in his first 6 years in SF and 2 more INTs than TDs.
2011 year 7 (age 27) 13-3, 17 tds, 5 ints. harbough year 1 (nyg NFCCG loss).
regardless of what we think of jones, coming back healthy isn't a guarantee,
we all know the odds of 1st round rookie qbs busting,
if it were my job on the line, the obvious choice for me would be rostering 1 of each and hoping one works out. sort it out on the field. they cant ask for much better of a qb draft to find one they like.
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
This is why there is so much issues on this site. People will discount Jones because he beat a bad Def Minny last year is the playoffs at their house. They will then turn around and say Devito played better than Jones when it is clear DeVito has much more time and this chart shows it. The OL was historically bad for Jones.
Then on the other side at what point does DJ get the blame here. He has had 5 years and hasn't been what we need him to be. He stares down WRs, gets hurt, and is slower to process than the NFL needs.
The thing is... both sides are right. I assume it is nonstop arguing because no one feels heard. That is what makes Eric's article so good. It lays it all out.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
Not to worry. The new QB will make the OL better. We are set. Just add a new coach and plug in a FA and everything will jell.
Do you think Daniel Jones will put the Giants in contention for a championship over the next three years?
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Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
Not to worry. The new QB will make the OL better. We are set. Just add a new coach and plug in a FA and everything will jell.
Because Burrow has had a great OL...
Great QBs make everyone-including OL-look better.
Stop. Making. Excuses.
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Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
Not to worry. The new QB will make the OL better. We are set. Just add a new coach and plug in a FA and everything will jell.
Do you think Daniel Jones will put the Giants in contention for a championship over the next three years?
Knowing which QB wont get you to a championship doesnt get you all that far to finding the guy who will. maybe it gets you on the road but they should be there any way since jones is hurt.
Finding the QB who will get them to a championship is the hard part that people forget that kind of matters most.
For the love of God, accept Jones for what he is...he's an average QB, at best.
I honestly can't believe we're discussing someone of his caliber going into his sixth season & still people are holding out hope. The ship has sailed.
For the love of God, accept Jones for what he is...he's an average QB, at best.
I honestly can't believe we're discussing someone of his caliber going into his sixth season & still people are holding out hope. The ship has sailed.
Here, here. It's exhausting, this unnecessary psychodrama we find ourselves in
Can we stop acting like Jones has never lifted up the team?
2011 year 7 (age 27) 13-3, 17 tds, 5 ints. harbough year 1 (nyg NFCCG loss).
regardless of what we think of jones, coming back healthy isn't a guarantee,
we all know the odds of 1st round rookie qbs busting,
if it were my job on the line, the obvious choice for me would be rostering 1 of each and hoping one works out. sort it out on the field. they cant ask for much better of a qb draft to find one they like.
Figuring it out on the field is going to be complicated if Jones is PUP all off season.
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and 0 winning seasons in his first 6 years in SF and 2 more INTs than TDs.
2011 year 7 (age 27) 13-3, 17 tds, 5 ints. harbough year 1 (nyg NFCCG loss).
regardless of what we think of jones, coming back healthy isn't a guarantee,
we all know the odds of 1st round rookie qbs busting,
if it were my job on the line, the obvious choice for me would be rostering 1 of each and hoping one works out. sort it out on the field. they cant ask for much better of a qb draft to find one they like.
Figuring it out on the field is going to be complicated if Jones is PUP all off season.
not really, then you get a first round pick who gets to take a ton of reps in the summer and gets a real chance to win a job. that possibility is very much part of the "sort it out on the field".
thats why i think they are going to invest a first and not just take some throwaway developmental guy who may or may not be that much different than devito. has devito played much different than levis, willis, ridder, howell, etc? his tools arent as good but performance wise id say no.
if jones makes it back healthy in time i think it's likely he'd be out a rookie but not impossible he doesnt. and even if you go in with 2 healthy as we've seen you may end up playing both if 1 gets hurt.
Can we stop acting like Jones has never lifted up the team?
Can we stop acting like Jones was only reason we won games? Barkley carried the offense more than Jones did in the first half. The defense had some real big games.
Jones played well at times last season. He was instrumental part of the reason they won some of those games. But he was not only one.