SFG, would you like to go over the OL and skill players from last season, and the Giants overall finish in the conference?
Can we stop acting like Jones has never lifted up the team?
Why does nobody else get any credit? What about the defense that only gave up over 20 points in 2 of the wins? What about Saqoun? What about Hodgins coming off of waivers and playing a big role down the stretch.
Why is it the team sucks, but Jones lifted them up? Daboll lifted them up last year. That’s who deserves a bulk of the credit
Ritchie James and tanner hudson are building on career years as well. Kyle Rudolph is living his best life as well as golden Tate. Myrick is looking at a pro bowl. John Ross, Dante petite, Kayden smith pharo cooper, cj board and Collin Johnson are all having big years. BIG TIME years. David sills and Marcus Johnson are having down years. Gotta keep it G, right, db?
Figuring it out on the field is going to be complicated if Jones is PUP all off season.
not really, then you get a first round pick who gets to take a ton of reps in the summer and gets a real chance to win a job. that possibility is very much part of the "sort it out on the field".
thats why i think they are going to invest a first and not just take some throwaway developmental guy who may or may not be that much different than devito. has devito played much different than levis, willis, ridder, howell, etc? his tools arent as good but performance wise id say no.
if jones makes it back healthy in time i think it's likely he'd be out a rookie but not impossible he doesnt. and even if you go in with 2 healthy as we've seen you may end up playing both if 1 gets hurt.
I think it's highly likely the Giants take a QB inside the top 40, and that player is competing with DeVito for the starting job in camp.
What's complicated is if Jones's recovery is at the medium-to-long end of the spectrum and he's PUP until mid-August/September.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
Eric in Li posted the example of Alex Smith as first round quarterback who was written off and resurrected his career.
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
I think we have too many holes for him to be successful here before he leaves. If he resurrects anywhere, I don't think it's in NY. FO would be insane not to try and move on at this point, especially based on injury history. But the draft is like a box of chocolates... no guarantee what we will get. That's why I care way Way WAY more about building a good roster, so that we are A) competitive no matter the signal caller AND B) Ready to strike WHEN our franchise QB is available. And who knows, maybe that somehow ends up being DJ anyway... LOL
RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
That’s pure bullshit. The OL dramatically improving over the course of the year is beyond question among rational ppl. Beyond injuries to both of our quality players. Those guys had no idea what they were doing for the first month of the season. They didn’t know their assignments. It was free runners in any obvious pass situation. The running game was nonexistent. Dabs ran his training camp in September. This team is completely unprepared for the season.
RE: RE: RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
That’s pure bullshit. The OL dramatically improving over the course of the year is beyond question among rational ppl. Beyond injuries to both of our quality players. Those guys had no idea what they were doing for the first month of the season. They didn’t know their assignments. It was free runners in any obvious pass situation. The running game was nonexistent. Dabs ran his training camp in September. This team is completely unprepared for the season.
So you agree, players play better when Jones isn't there. And then for some strange reason they start sucking again when he returns. And then when he's out, they play better again. It's so weird when that happens.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
1- too many factors, no way to predict. if he's healthy enough to prove he's their best qb he plays, but who knows when that is? the only scenario i can envision where they dont risk re-injury is if season is over and they know they are moving on.
2- if the rookie struggles and its early season, i think they go to jones when healthy. id imagine they set the expectation that jones will be qb when he's healthy figuring if the rookie happens to play well enough to bledsoe jones, that's a phenomenal "problem" to have.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
So you agree, players play better when Jones isn't there. And then for some strange reason they start sucking again when he returns. And then when he's out, they play better again. It's so weird when that happens.
Oh, producer/ debaser. A sad sack loser by any other name would smell as sweet.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
So you agree, players play better when Jones isn't there. And then for some strange reason they start sucking again when he returns. And then when he's out, they play better again. It's so weird when that happens.
Oh, producer/ debaser. A sad sack loser by any other name would smell as sweet.
Yes, the logical conclusion of your arguments don't sound great.
And I agree with the final assessment. If the Giants have the opportunity to draft a top flight quarterback, they should do it, though I'm not a fan of Caleb Williams. Too short. What irks me is the fact that while Mara certainly has a right to influence critical decisions, he seems to base those decisions on emotion. For years Jerry Reese wanted to draft a QB on the first round, convinced that Manning's lack of mobility and his wobbly passes were killing opportunities to win games, but Mara loved Eli and so Reese seethed and watched the Giants lose. And because Mara loves Jones, the Giants are stuck with a QB that cannot rise above mediocre personnel. Was Mara also responsible for the Giants passing on Micah Parsons because of "character issues"?
RE: So the story is over the course of Jones' career.
Just because everyone else has sucked doesn’t mean they shouldn’t move on from the guy who also isn’t good. It’s the only one that hasn’t changed, and it’s the most important out of any of those.
RE: RE: So the story is over the course of Jones' career.
Just because everyone else has sucked doesn’t mean they shouldn’t move on from the guy who also isn’t good. It’s the only one that hasn’t changed, and it’s the most important out of any of those.
Honestly - this is an accurate post. I think it’s time for both sides to acknowledge that Jones has been dealt a very bad hand AND is not the QB who can consistently lead us to where we need to be.
It’s nothing against him. Maybe a change of scenery may help. Maybe he needs a loaded team to be any good. I don’t know and it doesn’t matter anymore.
We need a new QB. We need better players around that QB. We need change.
And I agree with the final assessment. If the Giants have the opportunity to draft a top flight quarterback, they should do it, though I'm not a fan of Caleb Williams. Too short. What irks me is the fact that while Mara certainly has a right to influence critical decisions, he seems to base those decisions on emotion. For years Jerry Reese wanted to draft a QB on the first round, convinced that Manning's lack of mobility and his wobbly passes were killing opportunities to win games, but Mara loved Eli and so Reese seethed and watched the Giants lose. And because Mara loves Jones, the Giants are stuck with a QB that cannot rise above mediocre personnel. Was Mara also responsible for the Giants passing on Micah Parsons because of "character issues"?
Never heard that Reese was looking to draft a QB to replace Eli.
How many times does it need to said that one of Parson's coaches at PSU was on Judge's staff and told them Parson should not be drafted as he has issues.
the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Overcoming a bad OL is really difficult for any QB, I think that's fair. I also think it's almost impossible for a mediocre or worse QB to overcome just about any adverse circumstances. So a mediocre QB will make a bad OL look historically bad. A mediocre QB will make a journeyman WR corps look like they've never played football before. A mediocre QB will make accomplished coaches look like they're lost at sea.
And what makes it even more difficult to assess is when the QB's deficiencies aren't really physical. It's easy to see when a QB is a statue in the pocket and can't escape pressure. It's easy to see when a QB has a weak arm and can't make all the throws. Those sorts of flaws jump off the screen.
But as I mentioned yesterday, when the QB's fatal flaw isn't that he does anything wrong, but that it just takes him 0.3 seconds longer to do it, that's not so obvious. But that 0.3 seconds makes the OL look worse because the pressure gets there in that fraction of a second. It makes the receivers look bad because the defenders who get beaten on the break can recover in that fraction of a second.
Couple that with a reluctance to throw with anticipation and replace it with a preference for safer throws underneath, and now you're not only asking your QB to play faster than he's capable of, you're asking him to do it more often than his counterparts because he lacks the benefit of the chunk plays that lead to quicker scoring drives. So now your QB isn't doing anything obviously wrong, but somehow you're ending up with field goals instead of touchdowns.
Indecisiveness and slow processing might be the worst fatal flaw that a QB can possess because that QB won't obviously be at fault, but it is his fault. And that QB will look great in practice and in training camp because those flaws aren't exposed in those circumstances. And that QB will put up great numbers against horrible defenses because what makes them horrible is that they also take too long to react. Those horrible defenses are horrible because the extra 0.3 seconds don't result in pressure for them, and because their DBs don't recover in those 0.3 seconds.
DJ is, physically, everything you might ask for in a QB. And his mental deficiencies aren't exposed against bad defenses, because those deficiencies are on such a thin margin to begin with. But the upside is capped. And a championship is always going to be just out of reach when your QB is just a tick too slow and only has one reaction (run) to off-script scenarios.
Great Post GD.
THIS IS THE MUST READ POST OF THIS THREAD!
Others have said this before, including myself. But none of us have laid it out so plainly for anybody to see. This is what people mean when they say he processes too slowly.
I will say this. To those who are casual observers, or simply don't understand football, this problem is now visible. However, if you really watch the video, especially the all 22s, you can see the moment that he should have let the ball fly if he had the processing ability and was capable of the appropriate anticipation. I've seen numerous times where he had a lane to throw if he threw as the receiver was making his break. However, he waits to see that separation. But by the time the separation is obvious, the window is closed, either because lineman have their hands up, are coming to the sack, or a LB is in direct line. Jones then hesitates to throw in the next window when the receiver has crossed the blockage, but by that time the rush got there, or the DB recovered, or the safety has read Jones "staring" down his receiver and is closing. In other words, if you spend the effort and do the analysis, that which is not obvious at a casual view or is not obvious from the broadcast becomes obvious. Obvious enough that I do wonder about giving him the contract. Professional evaluators should have been able to see this flaw. This is a fatal flaw, and one in which I doubt that coaching can fix, other than scheming around it.
The Giants have never been better than 16th in the NFL in scoring since Barkley was drafted. An offense built around Barkley has never been a good offense, and we have six years of sample size supporting that.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
Absa-F*ing-lutely
Why people cannot see that building an offense around a RB just doesn't work in 2023, still amazes me.
RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
I don't think that char supports your assertion. In fact quite the opposite. It looks pretty damning against Jones.
Do you see that vertical line. That is the NFL average of time to throw. Yes the Giants are a bit to the left (wrong side) of that line. There are MANY teams further left than the Giants and significantly so.
That says the Giants OL was playing below average, but certainly not historically bad.
On the other hand, the Giants are near the bottom of times pressured. That difference between a little below average OL and league worst (or nearly so) times pressured is 100% on the QBs.
RE: RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
I don't think that char supports your assertion. In fact quite the opposite. It looks pretty damning against Jones.
Do you see that vertical line. That is the NFL average of time to throw. Yes the Giants are a bit to the left (wrong side) of that line. There are MANY teams further left than the Giants and significantly so.
That says the Giants OL was playing below average, but certainly not historically bad.
On the other hand, the Giants are near the bottom of times pressured. That difference between a little below average OL and league worst (or nearly so) times pressured is 100% on the QBs.
Sorry I missed the fact that there were 3 NYG icons for each QB...
I missed DJ being tucked down in the lower left.
either still hold out hope that Jones is THE guy, or that he was THE guy but now the injuries have derailed him...
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
The Star Players Daniel Jones Has Dragged Down (2019 - 2022)
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
The evidence is clearly there that Jones doesn't process quickly enough nor take the shots when they are there. Regardless of the awful offensive line, he's a one read player who offers versatility with his legs, which Daboll and Kafka were able to maximize in year one, as was Shurmur for a small period.
Best-case scenario for me is the Alex Smith/Mahomes situation where you draft a QB and have him sit for a year while Jones plays if he is healthy.
RE: RE: RE: So the story is over the course of Jones' career.
Just because everyone else has sucked doesn’t mean they shouldn’t move on from the guy who also isn’t good. It’s the only one that hasn’t changed, and it’s the most important out of any of those.
Honestly - this is an accurate post. I think it’s time for both sides to acknowledge that Jones has been dealt a very bad hand AND is not the QB who can consistently lead us to where we need to be.
It’s nothing against him. Maybe a change of scenery may help. Maybe he needs a loaded team to be any good. I don’t know and it doesn’t matter anymore.
We need a new QB. We need better players around that QB. We need change.
Been saying for years that two things can be true: the team around Jones has been bad and Jones at best is a mediocre QB. Some posters read that as I'm putting all the blame on Jones. I've never placed all blame on Jones, just tried to give him a share of the blame pie
either still hold out hope that Jones is THE guy, or that he was THE guy but now the injuries have derailed him...
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
Haha! this is great Mcl
"...last vestiges of the Gettleman stink."
RE: So the story is over the course of Jones' career.
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
Where is the line drawn?
Why are all of these guys bad football players but you won't even consider that the QB is ALSO bad?
You must be a bad fan. How can you denigrate all of these guys? You're supposed to root for all the players, remember?
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
RE: RE: The Star Players Daniel Jones Has Dragged Down (2019 - 2022)
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
Where is the line drawn?
Why are all of these guys bad football players but you won't even consider that the QB is ALSO bad?
You must be a bad fan. How can you denigrate all of these guys? You're supposed to root for all the players, remember?
Even more, all evidence suggests that Hiatt, Wan'Dale, Waller, and Slayton are probably the best receiving core that Giants have had in the Jones era and yet he was the worst of the 3 QBs that have played this year at utilizing them.
Many BBIers are making this argument while conveniently over looking the injuries to Andrew Thomas and Saquon Barkley, not to mention the total disarray of the entire O-line.
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
What is the desire to support those shortcomings? I don't see anyone getting too excited about a receiver who can't remember his routes, or takes a split second too long in/out of his breaks; or a lineman who can't recognize a stunt, or takes a split second too long to get his punch into a defender. So why the undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
Jones would never reveal it but he'd probably welcome a change of scenery at this point. He earned his contract, let a rookie take the beating.
Here are your questions... and here are my answers:
"Where is the line drawn... Why are all of these guys bad football players but you won't even consider that the QB is ALSO bad?"
Obviously, they are not all bad football players. But taken on the whole, the list I provided is pretty good proof as to why the Giants have been the laughing stock of the NFL. As for Daniel Jones, I know his shortcomings by heart, and over the years I have articulated them on BBI. But can you admit the opposite? That a part of Daniel Jones' lack of success is also tied to the personnel he has been surrounded by?
"You must be a bad fan. How can you denigrate all of these guys? You're supposed to root for all the players, remember?"
I'll leave it to others to judge whether or not I've been a bad fan since I first started following this team in the early 1960s. As for denigrating these players and not rooting for them? I think you've got that wrong. I did root for them, but many of them (not all) turned out to be part of the problem rather than the solution.
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
What is the desire to support those shortcomings? I don't see anyone getting too excited about a receiver who can't remember his routes, or takes a split second too long in/out of his breaks; or a lineman who can't recognize a stunt, or takes a split second too long to get his punch into a defender. So why the undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?
Why the double standard?
Who exactly on this web site has "undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?" That's an assumption of yours which seems to have animated your posts.
And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
RE: Jones will be the starter next year if healthy
And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
Unless the Giants completely neglect the QB position this offseason, which is basically impossible given the fact that Taylor is a FA - it's not a slam-dunk fact that DJ will be the starting QB next season.
There will be AT LEAST other bodies in the locker room that can throw a football.
I'm willing to bet they will be legit bodies given the fact that there's no guarantee that DJ will be ready for camp or the beginning of next season given the ACL/neck situations.
RE: Jones will be the starter next year if healthy
And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
Obviously if the Giants win 11 games and Jones performs well they aren't going to move on from him. I'd love it if Daniel Jones became the QB you think he is consistently for the first time in his life.
However, the problem comes if/when next year is somewhere between 11 wins and this season's disaster. Let's say, 7-8 wins, no playoffs, Jones plays decently but not great - are you (and the Giants organization) going to move on from him?
My guess, unfortunately, would be no.
RE: RE: Simple chart measuing how quick the pressure came....
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
Did you actually watch the first 6 games without AT? And Ezeudu at LT? Before they signed Pugh? It's not WAY better but it is definitely better and more stable, you'd have to be blind not to have seen that. Plus Saquon was lost at end of AZ game. Yeah, it matters.
Holy shit. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I read some of these posts.
RE: Jones will be the starter next year if healthy
And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
And when he gets hurt again in 2024 or 2025? What happens then. Keep paying a QB who can't put together more than a half season of decent play 45m? No chance.
They're going to pivot off Jones in the next two years. Even if he plays "okay".
Many BBIers are making this argument while conveniently over looking the injuries to Andrew Thomas and Saquon Barkley, not to mention the total disarray of the entire O-line.
We saw Jones throw 9 passes against the Raiders with Thomas and Barkley in the lineup. It was the worst he looked all year, throwing those two ducks to Hyatt, and that's saying something.
As I've said before, he was out to lunch this season (it's already been rumored that people in the building were mystified by it) and got injured. I guess Schoen and the Giants could write it off, but his floor as a quarterback is already fairly low and it would be negligent to not hedge against this taking a 1st or 2nd round QB.
RE: RE: Superb synopsis of the Daniel Jones era, Eric
And I agree with the final assessment. If the Giants have the opportunity to draft a top flight quarterback, they should do it, though I'm not a fan of Caleb Williams. Too short. What irks me is the fact that while Mara certainly has a right to influence critical decisions, he seems to base those decisions on emotion. For years Jerry Reese wanted to draft a QB on the first round, convinced that Manning's lack of mobility and his wobbly passes were killing opportunities to win games, but Mara loved Eli and so Reese seethed and watched the Giants lose. And because Mara loves Jones, the Giants are stuck with a QB that cannot rise above mediocre personnel. Was Mara also responsible for the Giants passing on Micah Parsons because of "character issues"?
Never heard that Reese was looking to draft a QB to replace Eli.
How many times does it need to said that one of Parson's coaches at PSU was on Judge's staff and told them Parson should not be drafted as he has issues.
the QB thing with reese reeks of absolute horseshit. the only 1st round qbs in reese's last 3 drafts were:
so paxton lynch is the only 1st rd qb who was on the clock they could have picked, but i guess mara was pounding the table for eli apple?
mahomes and watson are the 2 who went low enough a trade up was possible, the rumor on mahomes was mcadoo liked him not not reese, which also struck me as a fiction. sean payton has talked a lot about how much he liked mahomes too and he still passed on him for lattimore even though brees was older than eli. they picked davis webb in the 3rd that year and claimed to have a "much higher grade on him", i guess mara allowed it bc he watched enough Cal he was comfortable knowing webb sucked enough to not threaten eli?
this franchise has sucked so bad people see ghosts everywhere.
RE: Jones will be the starter next year if healthy
And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
Can we stop acting like Jones has never lifted up the team?
Why does nobody else get any credit? What about the defense that only gave up over 20 points in 2 of the wins? What about Saqoun? What about Hodgins coming off of waivers and playing a big role down the stretch.
Why is it the team sucks, but Jones lifted them up? Daboll lifted them up last year. That’s who deserves a bulk of the credit
Can we stop acting like Jones has never lifted up the team?
Can we talk about how every player who left Jones' orbit was better away from Jones?
Ritchie James and tanner hudson are building on career years as well. Kyle Rudolph is living his best life as well as golden Tate. Myrick is looking at a pro bowl. John Ross, Dante petite, Kayden smith pharo cooper, cj board and Collin Johnson are all having big years. BIG TIME years. David sills and Marcus Johnson are having down years. Gotta keep it G, right, db?
not really, then you get a first round pick who gets to take a ton of reps in the summer and gets a real chance to win a job. that possibility is very much part of the "sort it out on the field".
thats why i think they are going to invest a first and not just take some throwaway developmental guy who may or may not be that much different than devito. has devito played much different than levis, willis, ridder, howell, etc? his tools arent as good but performance wise id say no.
if jones makes it back healthy in time i think it's likely he'd be out a rookie but not impossible he doesnt. and even if you go in with 2 healthy as we've seen you may end up playing both if 1 gets hurt.
I think it's highly likely the Giants take a QB inside the top 40, and that player is competing with DeVito for the starting job in camp.
What's complicated is if Jones's recovery is at the medium-to-long end of the spectrum and he's PUP until mid-August/September.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
I think that's a fair example. That would be a great outcome for Daniel Jones.
So given the Giants need much better quarterback play, what odds would you take:
Daniel Jones evolving into Alex Smith or a top 5 pick outperforming Alex Smith?
I think we have too many holes for him to be successful here before he leaves. If he resurrects anywhere, I don't think it's in NY. FO would be insane not to try and move on at this point, especially based on injury history. But the draft is like a box of chocolates... no guarantee what we will get. That's why I care way Way WAY more about building a good roster, so that we are A) competitive no matter the signal caller AND B) Ready to strike WHEN our franchise QB is available. And who knows, maybe that somehow ends up being DJ anyway... LOL
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
Probably means engram who is looking for his 2nd pro bowl year.
Quote:
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
That’s pure bullshit. The OL dramatically improving over the course of the year is beyond question among rational ppl. Beyond injuries to both of our quality players. Those guys had no idea what they were doing for the first month of the season. They didn’t know their assignments. It was free runners in any obvious pass situation. The running game was nonexistent. Dabs ran his training camp in September. This team is completely unprepared for the season.
Quote:
In comment 16309167 mittenedman said:
Quote:
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
That’s pure bullshit. The OL dramatically improving over the course of the year is beyond question among rational ppl. Beyond injuries to both of our quality players. Those guys had no idea what they were doing for the first month of the season. They didn’t know their assignments. It was free runners in any obvious pass situation. The running game was nonexistent. Dabs ran his training camp in September. This team is completely unprepared for the season.
So you agree, players play better when Jones isn't there. And then for some strange reason they start sucking again when he returns. And then when he's out, they play better again. It's so weird when that happens.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
1- too many factors, no way to predict. if he's healthy enough to prove he's their best qb he plays, but who knows when that is? the only scenario i can envision where they dont risk re-injury is if season is over and they know they are moving on.
2- if the rookie struggles and its early season, i think they go to jones when healthy. id imagine they set the expectation that jones will be qb when he's healthy figuring if the rookie happens to play well enough to bledsoe jones, that's a phenomenal "problem" to have.
So you agree, players play better when Jones isn't there. And then for some strange reason they start sucking again when he returns. And then when he's out, they play better again. It's so weird when that happens.
Oh, producer/ debaser. A sad sack loser by any other name would smell as sweet.
Quote:
In comment 16309315 dancing blue bear said:
So you agree, players play better when Jones isn't there. And then for some strange reason they start sucking again when he returns. And then when he's out, they play better again. It's so weird when that happens.
Oh, producer/ debaser. A sad sack loser by any other name would smell as sweet.
Yes, the logical conclusion of your arguments don't sound great.
Let's draft a new QB at all costs.
"Here I come, to save tbe DAAAAAY!"
Let's draft a new QB at all costs.
"Here I come, to save tbe DAAAAAY!"
Just because everyone else has sucked doesn’t mean they shouldn’t move on from the guy who also isn’t good. It’s the only one that hasn’t changed, and it’s the most important out of any of those.
Quote:
3 head coaches. 4 Offensive Coordinators. Terrible offensive line. Unfathomable WR corps. Injuries. Terrible defense. Decidedly un-special teams.
Let's draft a new QB at all costs.
"Here I come, to save tbe DAAAAAY!"
Just because everyone else has sucked doesn’t mean they shouldn’t move on from the guy who also isn’t good. It’s the only one that hasn’t changed, and it’s the most important out of any of those.
Honestly - this is an accurate post. I think it’s time for both sides to acknowledge that Jones has been dealt a very bad hand AND is not the QB who can consistently lead us to where we need to be.
It’s nothing against him. Maybe a change of scenery may help. Maybe he needs a loaded team to be any good. I don’t know and it doesn’t matter anymore.
We need a new QB. We need better players around that QB. We need change.
Never heard that Reese was looking to draft a QB to replace Eli.
How many times does it need to said that one of Parson's coaches at PSU was on Judge's staff and told them Parson should not be drafted as he has issues.
Quote:
In comment 16308924 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
the statistically worst pass defense in the NFL in the playoffs, or the 28th overall worst defense in the league.
Teams with negative point differentials on the season typically don't play home playoff games.
Daniel Jones played a terrific game on the road, in the playoffs in 2022. He did it against the worst defense in the league. When he played a complete team the following week, he was a disaster and the team got obliterated.
Is the argument that Daniel Jones took the team to the playoffs, and Daniel Jones won the first playoff game, but then the team lost the playoff game against Philly?
2022 - Daniel Jones carries teams to playoff season!
First playoff game - Daniel Jones carries team to playoff win!
Second playoff game - giants lose because the team sucks
Why did Jones look so good against Minny no pass rush and so bad against Philly one of the best. It comes down to if a QB has time he will look better. So you can't blame people for thinking if we could just improve our OL he will look better. You also can't blame people for thinking to be a good QB you have to overcome some of that. Although I will say overcoming a bad OL for any QB is an almost impossible task.
Overcoming a bad OL is really difficult for any QB, I think that's fair. I also think it's almost impossible for a mediocre or worse QB to overcome just about any adverse circumstances. So a mediocre QB will make a bad OL look historically bad. A mediocre QB will make a journeyman WR corps look like they've never played football before. A mediocre QB will make accomplished coaches look like they're lost at sea.
And what makes it even more difficult to assess is when the QB's deficiencies aren't really physical. It's easy to see when a QB is a statue in the pocket and can't escape pressure. It's easy to see when a QB has a weak arm and can't make all the throws. Those sorts of flaws jump off the screen.
But as I mentioned yesterday, when the QB's fatal flaw isn't that he does anything wrong, but that it just takes him 0.3 seconds longer to do it, that's not so obvious. But that 0.3 seconds makes the OL look worse because the pressure gets there in that fraction of a second. It makes the receivers look bad because the defenders who get beaten on the break can recover in that fraction of a second.
Couple that with a reluctance to throw with anticipation and replace it with a preference for safer throws underneath, and now you're not only asking your QB to play faster than he's capable of, you're asking him to do it more often than his counterparts because he lacks the benefit of the chunk plays that lead to quicker scoring drives. So now your QB isn't doing anything obviously wrong, but somehow you're ending up with field goals instead of touchdowns.
Indecisiveness and slow processing might be the worst fatal flaw that a QB can possess because that QB won't obviously be at fault, but it is his fault. And that QB will look great in practice and in training camp because those flaws aren't exposed in those circumstances. And that QB will put up great numbers against horrible defenses because what makes them horrible is that they also take too long to react. Those horrible defenses are horrible because the extra 0.3 seconds don't result in pressure for them, and because their DBs don't recover in those 0.3 seconds.
DJ is, physically, everything you might ask for in a QB. And his mental deficiencies aren't exposed against bad defenses, because those deficiencies are on such a thin margin to begin with. But the upside is capped. And a championship is always going to be just out of reach when your QB is just a tick too slow and only has one reaction (run) to off-script scenarios.
Great Post GD.
THIS IS THE MUST READ POST OF THIS THREAD!
Others have said this before, including myself. But none of us have laid it out so plainly for anybody to see. This is what people mean when they say he processes too slowly.
I will say this. To those who are casual observers, or simply don't understand football, this problem is now visible. However, if you really watch the video, especially the all 22s, you can see the moment that he should have let the ball fly if he had the processing ability and was capable of the appropriate anticipation. I've seen numerous times where he had a lane to throw if he threw as the receiver was making his break. However, he waits to see that separation. But by the time the separation is obvious, the window is closed, either because lineman have their hands up, are coming to the sack, or a LB is in direct line. Jones then hesitates to throw in the next window when the receiver has crossed the blockage, but by that time the rush got there, or the DB recovered, or the safety has read Jones "staring" down his receiver and is closing. In other words, if you spend the effort and do the analysis, that which is not obvious at a casual view or is not obvious from the broadcast becomes obvious. Obvious enough that I do wonder about giving him the contract. Professional evaluators should have been able to see this flaw. This is a fatal flaw, and one in which I doubt that coaching can fix, other than scheming around it.
That Jones got his contract in part because they wanted to save the franchise tag for Barkley only compounds the stupidity of the decision making. Both Jones and Barkley should have been allowed to seek greener pastures after 2022. That would have required courage and prescience, two qualities the Giants have lacked for many years.
Absa-F*ing-lutely
Why people cannot see that building an offense around a RB just doesn't work in 2023, still amazes me.
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
I don't think that char supports your assertion. In fact quite the opposite. It looks pretty damning against Jones.
Do you see that vertical line. That is the NFL average of time to throw. Yes the Giants are a bit to the left (wrong side) of that line. There are MANY teams further left than the Giants and significantly so.
That says the Giants OL was playing below average, but certainly not historically bad.
On the other hand, the Giants are near the bottom of times pressured. That difference between a little below average OL and league worst (or nearly so) times pressured is 100% on the QBs.
Quote:
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
I don't think that char supports your assertion. In fact quite the opposite. It looks pretty damning against Jones.
Do you see that vertical line. That is the NFL average of time to throw. Yes the Giants are a bit to the left (wrong side) of that line. There are MANY teams further left than the Giants and significantly so.
That says the Giants OL was playing below average, but certainly not historically bad.
On the other hand, the Giants are near the bottom of times pressured. That difference between a little below average OL and league worst (or nearly so) times pressured is 100% on the QBs.
Sorry I missed the fact that there were 3 NYG icons for each QB...
I missed DJ being tucked down in the lower left.
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
It was the same group that also scouted and drafted Daniel Jones.
Shepard - and that's a stretch
SB
Dex
Andrew Thomas
McKinney
and the rest are still on their rookie contracts.
It's an entire institutional failure. DJ is a part - a huge part - of that failure.
Best-case scenario for me is the Alex Smith/Mahomes situation where you draft a QB and have him sit for a year while Jones plays if he is healthy.
Quote:
In comment 16309346 rnargi said:
Quote:
3 head coaches. 4 Offensive Coordinators. Terrible offensive line. Unfathomable WR corps. Injuries. Terrible defense. Decidedly un-special teams.
Let's draft a new QB at all costs.
"Here I come, to save tbe DAAAAAY!"
Just because everyone else has sucked doesn’t mean they shouldn’t move on from the guy who also isn’t good. It’s the only one that hasn’t changed, and it’s the most important out of any of those.
Honestly - this is an accurate post. I think it’s time for both sides to acknowledge that Jones has been dealt a very bad hand AND is not the QB who can consistently lead us to where we need to be.
It’s nothing against him. Maybe a change of scenery may help. Maybe he needs a loaded team to be any good. I don’t know and it doesn’t matter anymore.
We need a new QB. We need better players around that QB. We need change.
Been saying for years that two things can be true: the team around Jones has been bad and Jones at best is a mediocre QB. Some posters read that as I'm putting all the blame on Jones. I've never placed all blame on Jones, just tried to give him a share of the blame pie
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
Haha! this is great Mcl
"...last vestiges of the Gettleman stink."
Let's draft a new QB at all costs.
"Here I come, to save tbe DAAAAAY!"
It's literally right there for you to figure out on your own.
Alas...
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
Where is the line drawn?
Why are all of these guys bad football players but you won't even consider that the QB is ALSO bad?
You must be a bad fan. How can you denigrate all of these guys? You're supposed to root for all the players, remember?
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
Quote:
Offensive Lineman
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
Where is the line drawn?
Why are all of these guys bad football players but you won't even consider that the QB is ALSO bad?
You must be a bad fan. How can you denigrate all of these guys? You're supposed to root for all the players, remember?
Even more, all evidence suggests that Hiatt, Wan'Dale, Waller, and Slayton are probably the best receiving core that Giants have had in the Jones era and yet he was the worst of the 3 QBs that have played this year at utilizing them.
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
What is the desire to support those shortcomings? I don't see anyone getting too excited about a receiver who can't remember his routes, or takes a split second too long in/out of his breaks; or a lineman who can't recognize a stunt, or takes a split second too long to get his punch into a defender. So why the undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?
Why the double standard?
There’s going to be injuries in every season.
2019
65 Nick Gates G
75 Jon Halapio C
71 Will Hernandez G
77 Spencer Pulley C
74 Mike Remmers T
62 Chad Slade T
79 Eric Smith T
76 Nate Solder T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2020
72 Jackson Barton T
75 Cameron Fleming T
65 Nick Gates C
71 Will Hernandez G
66 Shane Lemieux G
60 Kyle Murphy G
74 Matt Peart T
77 Spencer Pulley C
78 Andrew Thomas T
70 Kevin Zeitler G
2021
68 Ben Bredeson G
79 Korey Cunningham T
71 Will Hernandez G
63 Wes Martin G
69 Billy Price C
67 Matt Skura C
76 Nate Solder T
78 Andrew Thomas T
2022
77 Jack Anderson G
68 Ben Bredeson G
67 Wyatt Davis G
76 Jon Feliciano C
65 Nick Gates C
64 Mark Glowinski G
73 Evan Neal T
74 Matt Peart T
79 Tyre Phillips T
78 Andrew Thomas T
Wide Receivers
2019
17 Cody Core
12 Cody Latimer
18 Da'Mari Scott
87 Sterling Shepard
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2020
18 C. J. Board
81 Austin Mack
13 Dante Pettis
87 Sterling Shepard
86 Darius Slayton
15 Golden Tate
2021
19 Kenny Golladay
15 Collin Johnson
12 John Ross
84 David Sills
86 Darius Slayton
89 Kadarius Toney
2022
19 Kenny Golladay
18 Isaiah Hodgins
80 Richie James
84 Marcus Johnson
86 Darius Slayton
Tight Ends
2019
89 Garrett Dickerson
82 Kaden Smith
2020
88 Evan Engram
82 Kaden Smith
85 Levine Toilolo
2021
88 Evan Engram
80 Kyle Rudolph
2022
82 Daniel Bellinger
83 Lawrence Cager
89 Nick Vannett
Jones would never reveal it but he'd probably welcome a change of scenery at this point. He earned his contract, let a rookie take the beating.
"Where is the line drawn... Why are all of these guys bad football players but you won't even consider that the QB is ALSO bad?"
Obviously, they are not all bad football players. But taken on the whole, the list I provided is pretty good proof as to why the Giants have been the laughing stock of the NFL. As for Daniel Jones, I know his shortcomings by heart, and over the years I have articulated them on BBI. But can you admit the opposite? That a part of Daniel Jones' lack of success is also tied to the personnel he has been surrounded by?
"You must be a bad fan. How can you denigrate all of these guys? You're supposed to root for all the players, remember?"
I'll leave it to others to judge whether or not I've been a bad fan since I first started following this team in the early 1960s. As for denigrating these players and not rooting for them? I think you've got that wrong. I did root for them, but many of them (not all) turned out to be part of the problem rather than the solution.
Quote:
Who feel Daniel Jones can still be “the guy.”
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
What is the desire to support those shortcomings? I don't see anyone getting too excited about a receiver who can't remember his routes, or takes a split second too long in/out of his breaks; or a lineman who can't recognize a stunt, or takes a split second too long to get his punch into a defender. So why the undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?
Why the double standard?
Who exactly on this web site has "undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?" That's an assumption of yours which seems to have animated your posts.
Ok Pat.
There will be AT LEAST other bodies in the locker room that can throw a football.
I'm willing to bet they will be legit bodies given the fact that there's no guarantee that DJ will be ready for camp or the beginning of next season given the ACL/neck situations.
Obviously if the Giants win 11 games and Jones performs well they aren't going to move on from him. I'd love it if Daniel Jones became the QB you think he is consistently for the first time in his life.
However, the problem comes if/when next year is somewhere between 11 wins and this season's disaster. Let's say, 7-8 wins, no playoffs, Jones plays decently but not great - are you (and the Giants organization) going to move on from him?
My guess, unfortunately, would be no.
Quote:
Looks like DJ easily had the worst pass pro in the league.
I know. B.b.b.b.but DeVito threw more TDs!
So you truly think the offensive line has gotten way better after Jones got hurt?
Really??
Did you actually watch the first 6 games without AT? And Ezeudu at LT? Before they signed Pugh? It's not WAY better but it is definitely better and more stable, you'd have to be blind not to have seen that. Plus Saquon was lost at end of AZ game. Yeah, it matters.
Holy shit. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I read some of these posts.
And when he gets hurt again in 2024 or 2025? What happens then. Keep paying a QB who can't put together more than a half season of decent play 45m? No chance.
They're going to pivot off Jones in the next two years. Even if he plays "okay".
We saw Jones throw 9 passes against the Raiders with Thomas and Barkley in the lineup. It was the worst he looked all year, throwing those two ducks to Hyatt, and that's saying something.
As I've said before, he was out to lunch this season (it's already been rumored that people in the building were mystified by it) and got injured. I guess Schoen and the Giants could write it off, but his floor as a quarterback is already fairly low and it would be negligent to not hedge against this taking a 1st or 2nd round QB.
Quote:
And I agree with the final assessment. If the Giants have the opportunity to draft a top flight quarterback, they should do it, though I'm not a fan of Caleb Williams. Too short. What irks me is the fact that while Mara certainly has a right to influence critical decisions, he seems to base those decisions on emotion. For years Jerry Reese wanted to draft a QB on the first round, convinced that Manning's lack of mobility and his wobbly passes were killing opportunities to win games, but Mara loved Eli and so Reese seethed and watched the Giants lose. And because Mara loves Jones, the Giants are stuck with a QB that cannot rise above mediocre personnel. Was Mara also responsible for the Giants passing on Micah Parsons because of "character issues"?
Never heard that Reese was looking to draft a QB to replace Eli.
How many times does it need to said that one of Parson's coaches at PSU was on Judge's staff and told them Parson should not be drafted as he has issues.
the QB thing with reese reeks of absolute horseshit. the only 1st round qbs in reese's last 3 drafts were:
2015 - jameis, mariota 1&2 overall (giants picked flowers 9th)
2016 - goff, wentz 1&2 overall, paxton lynch 26th (giants picked apple 10th)
2017 - trubisky 2nd, mahomes 10th, watson 12th, (giants picked engram 23rd)
so paxton lynch is the only 1st rd qb who was on the clock they could have picked, but i guess mara was pounding the table for eli apple?
mahomes and watson are the 2 who went low enough a trade up was possible, the rumor on mahomes was mcadoo liked him not not reese, which also struck me as a fiction. sean payton has talked a lot about how much he liked mahomes too and he still passed on him for lattimore even though brees was older than eli. they picked davis webb in the 3rd that year and claimed to have a "much higher grade on him", i guess mara allowed it bc he watched enough Cal he was comfortable knowing webb sucked enough to not threaten eli?
this franchise has sucked so bad people see ghosts everywhere.
2018 Eli revenge tour part 2: Electric Boogaloo.