And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
What is the desire to support those shortcomings? I don't see anyone getting too excited about a receiver who can't remember his routes, or takes a split second too long in/out of his breaks; or a lineman who can't recognize a stunt, or takes a split second too long to get his punch into a defender. So why the undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?
Why the double standard?
Who exactly on this web site has "undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?" That's an assumption of yours which seems to have animated your posts.
Are you fucking serious?
Why didn't your list of shitty players above include the QB?
RE: RE: RE: Superb synopsis of the Daniel Jones era, Eric
they picked davis webb in the 3rd that year and claimed to have a "much higher grade on him", i guess mara allowed it bc he watched enough Cal he was comfortable knowing webb sucked enough to not threaten eli?
this franchise has sucked so bad people see ghosts everywhere.
True, but I also don't understand people who don't think the organizational rot created by the Mara family is still present.
They drafted Davis Webb because Chris Mara went to the Senior Bowl and liked him, and that's how much weight his opinion carried in somehow ranking him ahead of Patrick Mahomes despite pleas from the coaching staff.
RE: Jones will be the starter next year if healthy
And if the Giants go 11-6 and win at least one playoff game, he will continue to be the starter for 2025 and beyond. Time to accept it DJ haters. Of course, if he fails he will be gone after 2024. I am just pointing out the reality if the situation-Jones will not be traded or cut if the Giants turn it around next year. He will not be a "bridge" QB if the Giants are a success. He will only give way uf next season is a repeat of this one.
And if the Giants start the season 0-4, Jones gets hurt at some point and misses games and the team finishes 6-11?
At that point you are looking for a new GM and HC because the ones we have in place are morons.
Obviously, they are not all bad football players. But taken on the whole, the list I provided is pretty good proof as to why the Giants have been the laughing stock of the NFL. As for Daniel Jones, I know his shortcomings by heart, and over the years I have articulated them on BBI. But can you admit the opposite? That a part of Daniel Jones' lack of success is also tied to the personnel he has been surrounded by?
Find me the post where I have not acknowledged that the surrounding talent has been subpar? All I've said is that I don't buy the fairy tale that everything around DJ has failed him but he's never been the one to let his team down with his own flawed play.
And if you think the roster is so bad (it is), then how did the scouts and exec and coaches who are responsible for that roster magically get the QB choice correct? They didn't.
I think there are numerous spots on the roster that need to be upgraded. None are as important as QB because no position in sports is as important as QB.
If you want to suggest that a QB is merely a passenger at the mercy of his surrounding roster, then take that all the way to its logical conclusion: it doesn't matter who the QB is, it only matters what the surrounding roster construction is. And if that's the case, why pay any QB rack rate?
It is somewhat shocking the amount of OL the organization has trotted out there from 2013-2021 with basically terrible results. This isn't a comment about Jones or anything - you'd think they'd hit on a few of those over the years but they just all pretty much sucked. Baffling.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
1- too many factors, no way to predict. if he's healthy enough to prove he's their best qb he plays, but who knows when that is? the only scenario i can envision where they dont risk re-injury is if season is over and they know they are moving on.
2- if the rookie struggles and its early season, i think they go to jones when healthy. id imagine they set the expectation that jones will be qb when he's healthy figuring if the rookie happens to play well enough to bledsoe jones, that's a phenomenal "problem" to have.
When you posted sort it out on the field -- I took that to mean the outcome will be determined by how both players perform on the field. And why Jones's inavailibility is a variable.
If the operating assumption is Jones gets his job back when he's healthy, and that only changes if the Giants are eliminated or the rookie is playing well, that makes more sense.
But that also feels like the primary sorting happened before either ever gets on the field. Which is OK and smart planning.
I just want one season with a top 10 OL unit. Just one. Would love to see Daboll be able to call plays that have a chance of big time results if we can get an above functional OL going.
they picked davis webb in the 3rd that year and claimed to have a "much higher grade on him", i guess mara allowed it bc he watched enough Cal he was comfortable knowing webb sucked enough to not threaten eli?
this franchise has sucked so bad people see ghosts everywhere.
True, but I also don't understand people who don't think the organizational rot created by the Mara family is still present.
They drafted Davis Webb because Chris Mara went to the Senior Bowl and liked him, and that's how much weight his opinion carried in somehow ranking him ahead of Patrick Mahomes despite pleas from the coaching staff.
it's simple, some of us were also met fans during the wilponzi era so we know what real organizational rot looks like. the giants have more of a faux rot.
they did a shitty job replacing to potential hof'ers (coughlin/eli) but the odds of replacing both effectively were somewhere between 1-10%, and getting either end of that equation wrong impacts the other end. the jets have spent 20+ years since parcells looking and gone through how many HCs/QBs not as good as either of those 2? browns? commanders? raiders? dolphins pre-mcdaniels? those are some storied franchises who have been similarly inept, some of them with true rot (snyder).
I just want one season with a top 10 OL unit. Just one. Would love to see Daboll be able to call plays that have a chance of big time results if we can get an above functional OL going.
Ryan, there is no stability. Everyone wants Bobby Johnson gone, that'll lead to another reset and new philosophy. That athletic article by Duggan a few weeks ago was so true about the OL, there is never a chance for the unit to gel together.
Look at the Eagles. They've had Stoutland since 2016 and they've invested less in the OL than NYG.
Sean, I'm not entirely sure the issue is Bobby Johnson.
He was almost there already but Thomas turned into an elite left tackle with Johnson. Ezeudu has been hurt his entire time here. JMS looks like he's getting a little better as the season goes on but he has been hurt.
Are we sure Neal would be this awesome RT with another coach?
And remember, Johnson's first season as OL coach was 2022, and we actually had clean pockets and a pretty good running game. The OL wasn't good by any means, but it was the best it had been in probably 5 years.
Everyone wants to fire Johnson. I'm not sure that is the recipe. Draft better players.
It is somewhat shocking the amount of OL the organization has trotted out there from 2013-2021 with basically terrible results. This isn't a comment about Jones or anything - you'd think they'd hit on a few of those over the years but they just all pretty much sucked. Baffling.
For a long time they tried to plug holes as they appeared, and that's a result of essentially ignoring the OL in the draft from 2005-2012. In those 8 drafts, they only used ONE pick before the 4th round on an O-lineman - Will Beatty in the 2nd round in 2009.
2005: 0 OL
2006: 0 OL
2007: Adam Koets (R6)
2008: 0 OL
2009: Beatty (R2)
2010: Petrus (R5)
2011: James Brewer (R4)
2012: Brandon Mosely (R4), Matt McCants (R6)
Then from 2016-2019, they forgot to draft OL again:
2016: 0 OL
2017: Adam Bisnowaty (R7)
2018: Hernandez (R2)
2019: George Asafo-Adjei (R7)
During that period, they signed the likes of Nate Solder and Patrick Omameh, both of whom were colossal failures.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
1- too many factors, no way to predict. if he's healthy enough to prove he's their best qb he plays, but who knows when that is? the only scenario i can envision where they dont risk re-injury is if season is over and they know they are moving on.
2- if the rookie struggles and its early season, i think they go to jones when healthy. id imagine they set the expectation that jones will be qb when he's healthy figuring if the rookie happens to play well enough to bledsoe jones, that's a phenomenal "problem" to have.
When you posted sort it out on the field -- I took that to mean the outcome will be determined by how both players perform on the field. And why Jones's inavailibility is a variable.
If the operating assumption is Jones gets his job back when he's healthy, and that only changes if the Giants are eliminated or the rookie is playing well, that makes more sense.
But that also feels like the primary sorting happened before either ever gets on the field. Which is OK and smart planning.
you can only sort on the field with who is on the field. that's pretty fundamental. nobody has any idea when jones will be on the field bc anyone can suffer a setback or recover differently (schoen said all that a few days ago).
the "primary sorting" you and i are speculating about is hypothetical and untethered to a lot of info that wont be available until May/June, that's why it's ahead of what happened when people get on the field.
i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
It is somewhat shocking the amount of OL the organization has trotted out there from 2013-2021 with basically terrible results. This isn't a comment about Jones or anything - you'd think they'd hit on a few of those over the years but they just all pretty much sucked. Baffling.
For a long time they tried to plug holes as they appeared, and that's a result of essentially ignoring the OL in the draft from 2005-2012. In those 8 drafts, they only used ONE pick before the 4th round on an O-lineman - Will Beatty in the 2nd round in 2009.
2005: 0 OL
2006: 0 OL
2007: Adam Koets (R6)
2008: 0 OL
2009: Beatty (R2)
2010: Petrus (R5)
2011: James Brewer (R4)
2012: Brandon Mosely (R4), Matt McCants (R6)
Then from 2016-2019, they forgot to draft OL again:
2016: 0 OL
2017: Adam Bisnowaty (R7)
2018: Hernandez (R2)
2019: George Asafo-Adjei (R7)
During that period, they signed the likes of Nate Solder and Patrick Omameh, both of whom were colossal failures.
It's as if our player evaluation staff don't know what a good offensive lineman looks like.
It is somewhat shocking the amount of OL the organization has trotted out there from 2013-2021 with basically terrible results. This isn't a comment about Jones or anything - you'd think they'd hit on a few of those over the years but they just all pretty much sucked. Baffling.
For a long time they tried to plug holes as they appeared, and that's a result of essentially ignoring the OL in the draft from 2005-2012. In those 8 drafts, they only used ONE pick before the 4th round on an O-lineman - Will Beatty in the 2nd round in 2009.
2005: 0 OL
2006: 0 OL
2007: Adam Koets (R6)
2008: 0 OL
2009: Beatty (R2)
2010: Petrus (R5)
2011: James Brewer (R4)
2012: Brandon Mosely (R4), Matt McCants (R6)
Then from 2016-2019, they forgot to draft OL again:
2016: 0 OL
2017: Adam Bisnowaty (R7)
2018: Hernandez (R2)
2019: George Asafo-Adjei (R7)
During that period, they signed the likes of Nate Solder and Patrick Omameh, both of whom were colossal failures.
It's as if our player evaluation staff don't know what a good offensive lineman looks like.
How confident are you that they know what a good quarterback looks like? Have you seen all the guys they've chosen at that position since Ernie planted his flag on the Eli Manning hill?
either still hold out hope that Jones is THE guy, or that he was THE guy but now the injuries have derailed him...
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
The notion that Jones is/was a proxy for Gettleman devotees namong the majority of fans, is, frankly, an absurdity. I doubt you could find a handful of fans who were or are favorably disposed to Jones who also were secrely pining away for the days of Dave Gettleman. It's a ridiculous assertion.
i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
either still hold out hope that Jones is THE guy, or that he was THE guy but now the injuries have derailed him...
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
Well said.
Admitting a mistake, accepting responsibility have been replaced with defending one’s first opinion with passion bordering on fanaticism in the face of undeniable facts.
People halt their ability to learn and grow with this particular life philosophy that is far too common.
i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
It is being HELL BENT on being correct. People are more concerned with shouting their POV over and over, rather than a discussion. They use insulting language unnecessarily repeatedly and the fire is returned and all we do is shout.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
This is silly. Do you think they'll set it to a musical montage?
Men are moved by effort in my experience. When they see a teammate put in the work, they notice. You might be person who is indifferent about the locker room and the personalities that make it up, we likely will not agree here. Team chemistry matters IMV
i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
It's not at all clear Jones has the locker room. You keep suggesting he's a beloved leader. I don't think so. Not when half the league is mocking him. You don't think guys in the locker room see what the rookie corner for SEA sees? You don't think guys in the locker room see TT and TD operate better than Jones with all the team's problems? You don't think guys in the locker room are tired of Jones apologists blaming them for the QB's deficiencies?
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
Let's play this out literally. Jones had his surgery on November 22, 270 days forward is August 18. In a near perfect scenario Jones will be cleared to practice 3 weeks before the season begins.
In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
Let's play this out literally. Jones had his surgery on November 22, 270 days forward is August 18. In a near perfect scenario Jones will be cleared to practice 3 weeks before the season begins.
In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
He will have a red shirt on will be throwing all camp
Daboll/Schoen look forward to the first camp visit from the Senior Player Personnel Executive or the Director of Player Personnel. I'm sure they'll be happy to hear that, to their eyes,'ol DJ looks great and fully recovered and ready to roll.
In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
He will have a red shirt on will be throwing all camp
It appears you don't have a strong understanding of how PUP works and/or the general timing around ACL recoveries.
In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
He will have a red shirt on will be throwing all camp
It appears you don't have a strong understanding of how PUP works and/or the general timing around ACL recoveries.
on this board truly believe that we can actually win a SB with Jones at this point?
Yes, I do. It would require some good fortune that eludes Jones. I don’t think he can stay healthy. I want a Maye,Williams, Daniel’s or a later prospect.
Hello Mrs. Jones.
Quote:
In comment 16309502 M.S. said:
Quote:
Who feel Daniel Jones can still be “the guy.”
The endless debate over him seems to have fallen into two groups:
(1) His detractors who feel he just can’t get the job done and that rests squarely on HIM! Slow to process, stiff, mechanical, oft-injured, fumbler/turn-over machine.
(2) His supporters, who recognize his short-comings, but also recognize his strengths which have never been consistently on display due to NFL-bottom O-line/WR /TE units.
What is the desire to support those shortcomings? I don't see anyone getting too excited about a receiver who can't remember his routes, or takes a split second too long in/out of his breaks; or a lineman who can't recognize a stunt, or takes a split second too long to get his punch into a defender. So why the undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?
Why the double standard?
Who exactly on this web site has "undying adoration for a QB who can't process the field or takes a tick too long to act?" That's an assumption of yours which seems to have animated your posts.
Are you fucking serious?
Why didn't your list of shitty players above include the QB?
this franchise has sucked so bad people see ghosts everywhere.
True, but I also don't understand people who don't think the organizational rot created by the Mara family is still present.
They drafted Davis Webb because Chris Mara went to the Senior Bowl and liked him, and that's how much weight his opinion carried in somehow ranking him ahead of Patrick Mahomes despite pleas from the coaching staff.
And if the Giants start the season 0-4, Jones gets hurt at some point and misses games and the team finishes 6-11?
At that point you are looking for a new GM and HC because the ones we have in place are morons.
Find me the post where I have not acknowledged that the surrounding talent has been subpar? All I've said is that I don't buy the fairy tale that everything around DJ has failed him but he's never been the one to let his team down with his own flawed play.
And if you think the roster is so bad (it is), then how did the scouts and exec and coaches who are responsible for that roster magically get the QB choice correct? They didn't.
I think there are numerous spots on the roster that need to be upgraded. None are as important as QB because no position in sports is as important as QB.
If you want to suggest that a QB is merely a passenger at the mercy of his surrounding roster, then take that all the way to its logical conclusion: it doesn't matter who the QB is, it only matters what the surrounding roster construction is. And if that's the case, why pay any QB rack rate?
I refuse to give in to the hypocrisy.
1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
1- too many factors, no way to predict. if he's healthy enough to prove he's their best qb he plays, but who knows when that is? the only scenario i can envision where they dont risk re-injury is if season is over and they know they are moving on.
2- if the rookie struggles and its early season, i think they go to jones when healthy. id imagine they set the expectation that jones will be qb when he's healthy figuring if the rookie happens to play well enough to bledsoe jones, that's a phenomenal "problem" to have.
When you posted sort it out on the field -- I took that to mean the outcome will be determined by how both players perform on the field. And why Jones's inavailibility is a variable.
If the operating assumption is Jones gets his job back when he's healthy, and that only changes if the Giants are eliminated or the rookie is playing well, that makes more sense.
But that also feels like the primary sorting happened before either ever gets on the field. Which is OK and smart planning.
Quote:
they picked davis webb in the 3rd that year and claimed to have a "much higher grade on him", i guess mara allowed it bc he watched enough Cal he was comfortable knowing webb sucked enough to not threaten eli?
this franchise has sucked so bad people see ghosts everywhere.
True, but I also don't understand people who don't think the organizational rot created by the Mara family is still present.
They drafted Davis Webb because Chris Mara went to the Senior Bowl and liked him, and that's how much weight his opinion carried in somehow ranking him ahead of Patrick Mahomes despite pleas from the coaching staff.
it's simple, some of us were also met fans during the wilponzi era so we know what real organizational rot looks like. the giants have more of a faux rot.
they did a shitty job replacing to potential hof'ers (coughlin/eli) but the odds of replacing both effectively were somewhere between 1-10%, and getting either end of that equation wrong impacts the other end. the jets have spent 20+ years since parcells looking and gone through how many HCs/QBs not as good as either of those 2? browns? commanders? raiders? dolphins pre-mcdaniels? those are some storied franchises who have been similarly inept, some of them with true rot (snyder).
Ryan, there is no stability. Everyone wants Bobby Johnson gone, that'll lead to another reset and new philosophy. That athletic article by Duggan a few weeks ago was so true about the OL, there is never a chance for the unit to gel together.
Look at the Eagles. They've had Stoutland since 2016 and they've invested less in the OL than NYG.
He was almost there already but Thomas turned into an elite left tackle with Johnson. Ezeudu has been hurt his entire time here. JMS looks like he's getting a little better as the season goes on but he has been hurt.
Are we sure Neal would be this awesome RT with another coach?
And remember, Johnson's first season as OL coach was 2022, and we actually had clean pockets and a pretty good running game. The OL wasn't good by any means, but it was the best it had been in probably 5 years.
Everyone wants to fire Johnson. I'm not sure that is the recipe. Draft better players.
For a long time they tried to plug holes as they appeared, and that's a result of essentially ignoring the OL in the draft from 2005-2012. In those 8 drafts, they only used ONE pick before the 4th round on an O-lineman - Will Beatty in the 2nd round in 2009.
2005: 0 OL
2006: 0 OL
2007: Adam Koets (R6)
2008: 0 OL
2009: Beatty (R2)
2010: Petrus (R5)
2011: James Brewer (R4)
2012: Brandon Mosely (R4), Matt McCants (R6)
Then from 2016-2019, they forgot to draft OL again:
2016: 0 OL
2017: Adam Bisnowaty (R7)
2018: Hernandez (R2)
2019: George Asafo-Adjei (R7)
During that period, they signed the likes of Nate Solder and Patrick Omameh, both of whom were colossal failures.
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1) Do the Giants risk Jones playing at all, getting hurt, and triggering his injury guarantee for 2025
2) If the rookie struggles, do the Giants risk the messiness of benching a rookie for a lame duck Jones, or let the rookie play through the growing pains
1- too many factors, no way to predict. if he's healthy enough to prove he's their best qb he plays, but who knows when that is? the only scenario i can envision where they dont risk re-injury is if season is over and they know they are moving on.
2- if the rookie struggles and its early season, i think they go to jones when healthy. id imagine they set the expectation that jones will be qb when he's healthy figuring if the rookie happens to play well enough to bledsoe jones, that's a phenomenal "problem" to have.
When you posted sort it out on the field -- I took that to mean the outcome will be determined by how both players perform on the field. And why Jones's inavailibility is a variable.
If the operating assumption is Jones gets his job back when he's healthy, and that only changes if the Giants are eliminated or the rookie is playing well, that makes more sense.
But that also feels like the primary sorting happened before either ever gets on the field. Which is OK and smart planning.
you can only sort on the field with who is on the field. that's pretty fundamental. nobody has any idea when jones will be on the field bc anyone can suffer a setback or recover differently (schoen said all that a few days ago).
the "primary sorting" you and i are speculating about is hypothetical and untethered to a lot of info that wont be available until May/June, that's why it's ahead of what happened when people get on the field.
i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
I dont deal with sarcasm this well in the morning
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It is somewhat shocking the amount of OL the organization has trotted out there from 2013-2021 with basically terrible results. This isn't a comment about Jones or anything - you'd think they'd hit on a few of those over the years but they just all pretty much sucked. Baffling.
For a long time they tried to plug holes as they appeared, and that's a result of essentially ignoring the OL in the draft from 2005-2012. In those 8 drafts, they only used ONE pick before the 4th round on an O-lineman - Will Beatty in the 2nd round in 2009.
2005: 0 OL
2006: 0 OL
2007: Adam Koets (R6)
2008: 0 OL
2009: Beatty (R2)
2010: Petrus (R5)
2011: James Brewer (R4)
2012: Brandon Mosely (R4), Matt McCants (R6)
Then from 2016-2019, they forgot to draft OL again:
2016: 0 OL
2017: Adam Bisnowaty (R7)
2018: Hernandez (R2)
2019: George Asafo-Adjei (R7)
During that period, they signed the likes of Nate Solder and Patrick Omameh, both of whom were colossal failures.
It's as if our player evaluation staff don't know what a good offensive lineman looks like.
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In comment 16309669 ryanmkeane said:
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It is somewhat shocking the amount of OL the organization has trotted out there from 2013-2021 with basically terrible results. This isn't a comment about Jones or anything - you'd think they'd hit on a few of those over the years but they just all pretty much sucked. Baffling.
For a long time they tried to plug holes as they appeared, and that's a result of essentially ignoring the OL in the draft from 2005-2012. In those 8 drafts, they only used ONE pick before the 4th round on an O-lineman - Will Beatty in the 2nd round in 2009.
2005: 0 OL
2006: 0 OL
2007: Adam Koets (R6)
2008: 0 OL
2009: Beatty (R2)
2010: Petrus (R5)
2011: James Brewer (R4)
2012: Brandon Mosely (R4), Matt McCants (R6)
Then from 2016-2019, they forgot to draft OL again:
2016: 0 OL
2017: Adam Bisnowaty (R7)
2018: Hernandez (R2)
2019: George Asafo-Adjei (R7)
During that period, they signed the likes of Nate Solder and Patrick Omameh, both of whom were colossal failures.
It's as if our player evaluation staff don't know what a good offensive lineman looks like.
How confident are you that they know what a good quarterback looks like? Have you seen all the guys they've chosen at that position since Ernie planted his flag on the Eli Manning hill?
The '22 Vikings were 13-4 going into the playoffs.
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The ‘22 Vikings defense sucked.
The '22 Vikings were 13-4 going into the playoffs.
With a bad defense.
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
The notion that Jones is/was a proxy for Gettleman devotees namong the majority of fans, is, frankly, an absurdity. I doubt you could find a handful of fans who were or are favorably disposed to Jones who also were secrely pining away for the days of Dave Gettleman. It's a ridiculous assertion.
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
I have said this before about the great DJ debate (we can throw Barkley into this as well)... I find this to be a fascinating study of psychology.
The same people who loved Gettleman, are all in on Jones. Jones has become the procy for the Gettleman debates. Those who were all in DG supporters still want to be right about DG. They want to be able to say, see he drafter the pillars of this organization. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Barkley. We were right about the goodness of DG, and the rest of you were wrong.
No doubt Dex and Thomas are great players. That is 2 in four years of top 10 picking. Call them dumb luck.
Jones was never a good pick and neither was Barkley. The only way this debate ends is when those players are gone, and we can finally scrub away the last vestiges of the Gettleman stink.
While there have always been polyanna vs realist debates, never was the board so polarized with people dug in so hard than from 2017 and onward.
Perhaps we are nearing an end of this. We shall see. Perhaps it is just the way things are now. The board itself seems to be a mirror of where we are as a society in general.
Admitting a mistake, accepting responsibility have been replaced with defending one’s first opinion with passion bordering on fanaticism in the face of undeniable facts.
People halt their ability to learn and grow with this particular life philosophy that is far too common.
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i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
This is silly. Do you think they'll set it to a musical montage?
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If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
This is silly. Do you think they'll set it to a musical montage?
The Giants went 1-5
Much like this season, most of the “success” he had was in 1 game. 402 yds & 2 TD vs New Orleans.
Jones has twice done this.
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In comment 16309743 Eric on Li said:
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i know it's regarded as coach speak but i expect them to take both jones' health and his replacement's performance "day by day" in training camp just like they've done with all other rookies/acl rehabbers. of course they will plan what they can ahead of time because they have to w/ FA/draft decisions, but in terms of depth chart i do think that will get settled on field by whoever is on field. week 1 they will start whichever healthy qb they most believe in.
The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
It's not at all clear Jones has the locker room. You keep suggesting he's a beloved leader. I don't think so. Not when half the league is mocking him. You don't think guys in the locker room see what the rookie corner for SEA sees? You don't think guys in the locker room see TT and TD operate better than Jones with all the team's problems? You don't think guys in the locker room are tired of Jones apologists blaming them for the QB's deficiencies?
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If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
This is silly. Do you think they'll set it to a musical montage?
LOL.
I don't think most of Jones' teammates stare at him with the same love, devotion and yes, maybe even lust, that some on this site do.
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In comment 16309866 Thegratefulhead said:
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If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
This is silly. Do you think they'll set it to a musical montage?
LOL.
I don't think most of Jones' teammates stare at him with the same love, devotion and yes, maybe even lust, that some on this site do.
Why not Saquon & Shepard journey inspire them? They both had ACL injuries as well.
Therefore.
If Jones is healthy
And
Outperforms the rookie in camp.(Jones could be throwing already)
He will start.
My opinion, try not to be enraged by it.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
Let's play this out literally. Jones had his surgery on November 22, 270 days forward is August 18. In a near perfect scenario Jones will be cleared to practice 3 weeks before the season begins.
In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
Oh please
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The scenario I don't see that applying is if the Giants are in/move into the top 5 for a QB. There are real economic and practical incentives to never play Jones again.
Jones's unavailability makes it a virtually lock the top 5 pick is the presumptive starter through camp. Even if Jones gets healthy for week one and gives them the best chance to win in 2024, I still think they stick with the rookie.
I can't wrap my ahead around a scenario where Jones supplants a blue chip rookie. The rookie would have to be a total train wreck to justify benching him, taking away development, and risk Jones getting hurt and owing him 23M in 2025.
I think there is a very good chance the Giants make a practical and economic choice on who is the best longterm I solution at QB, far in advance of how things play out on the field.
If Jones is healthy and all his teammates witness his journey, if he outperforms the rookie in camp(likely), there is no way Jones does not start.
Let's play this out literally. Jones had his surgery on November 22, 270 days forward is August 18. In a near perfect scenario Jones will be cleared to practice 3 weeks before the season begins.
In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
He will have a red shirt on will be throwing all camp
It appears you don't have a strong understanding of how PUP works and/or the general timing around ACL recoveries.
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In those 3 weeks he'll likely outperform the blue chip top 5 pick who has taken the first team reps all off season? And will convince the staff and management the right decision is to delay the development of their key offseason acquisition, while also risking an additional 23M cap hit in 2025 if he's seriously injured again?
He will have a red shirt on will be throwing all camp
It appears you don't have a strong understanding of how PUP works and/or the general timing around ACL recoveries.
It isn’t outrageous or provocative
I've asked this a bunch of times...
The most popular answers are usually:
No...BUT
or
Maybe..IF
We need a QB
ALSO
Jones will be given a chance to rehab and start.
I don’t get the venom I receive for that.