From his mailbag earlier.
Some snippets…
1) Mara isn’t like Jerruh when it comes to being involved in personnel calls.
2) Chris Mara has taken a step back in terms of personnel decisions per his sources.
3) Tim McDonnell-‘the nephew’ as I like to call him-has a ‘prominent role as director of player personnel.’
4) Duggan doesn’t think Mara is telling Schoen what to do, but he can’t speak as to the implicit influence that might be there.
5) Duggan believes Schoen made the final call in terms of Jones and Saquon, but again notes how ownership might have subconsciously influenced Joe into the Jones contract/decision because of Mara’s public gushing over the kid.
6) Duggan speculates Mara might step in to mend the Dabs/Wink relationship.
7) Duggan himself doesn’t think John is telling the football ops what to do on ‘individual moves.’
It's fine that Mara has influence, they won Super Bowls with that family having influence. What's not fine is Mara's reluctance to admit mistakes and double down on losing strategies. It also seems that he's somewhat reluctant to adapt to the modern NFL in both field play and contracts.
I would be pleasantly surprised if that family admitted the Jones mistake and moved on. I would be pleasantly surprised if Barkley wasn't signed to a significant second contract. My guess is unless Arch is staring them in the face in two years and Barkley is relatively healthy, both are playing significant roles for the Giants three years from now.
Running the business end of a football team is something the Mara family has done for a long time and is good at. Wellington's father taught him, and he taught John. All three have a substantial legacy when it comes to the business of the league and the growth of the sport.
What the Mara family has never been, are football experts. Wellington grew up watching the game and being around the team, but hsi drafting and roster management were almost exclusively awful until George Young came along. The team needed a football guy, not a guy who was always around football.
Mara should be smart enough to realize his expertise lies in the running of the league and team, not so much in the on-field product. Those decisions need to be made by football guys hired to make those decisions, free of influence from someone who sees the game and team like a fan.
Running the business end of a football team is something the Mara family has done for a long time and is good at. Wellington's father taught him, and he taught John. All three have a substantial legacy when it comes to the business of the league and the growth of the sport.
What the Mara family has never been, are football experts. Wellington grew up watching the game and being around the team, but hsi drafting and roster management were almost exclusively awful until George Young came along. The team needed a football guy, not a guy who was always around football.
Mara should be smart enough to realize his expertise lies in the running of the league and team, not so much in the on-field product. Those decisions need to be made by football guys hired to make those decisions, free of influence from someone who sees the game and team like a fan.
And the issue is we never know who's making the decisions then. There are Mara's on the football side. What seems to happen though is the bad decisions end up falling on ownership where the good decisions fall to the GM (Schoen).
The Leonard Williams trade is an example. Would every owner sign off on eating the cost and essentially buying a 2nd round pick? I doubt it.
So, there is always this cloud of doubt over who handles the larger issues. Utilmately, it is on Schoen to manage it.
If nothing comes from this current regime, it would have to be time to just give someone like Harbaugh the keys to run the entire franchise. Or like what Denver has done with Sean Payton. I like Schoen & Daboll, but they have no track record of success.
Are we believing that with one of the biggest decisions that the franchise had to make with Jones that he was sitting out for that decision?
I diverge on the Jones situation. While I'm sure Mara was/is ecstatic that Jones had a good enough year in 2022 to get rewarded so handsomely, the decision to decline the 5th year option points to Schoen owning the Jones decisions.
Because that decision came on the heels of the infamous quote from Mara during the press conference introducing Schoen.: "We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up."
Despite being within five feet away when Mara said that, Schoen still declined the 5th year option two and a half months later. How can anyone think Mara was behind that?
There is no one on this board who has spent as much time as me crushing Mara before Schoen arrived. Nobody. So, I can't be mistaken as some Mara apologist.
People need to wake up a little bit and get the spotlight more on Schoen. He's possibly a bigger problem than many think...
Thanks Jon, I'd actually appreciate it if you shot me an email.
markrodgers1981@gmail.com
I'd say those are more of the wrong questions.
1) Mara has had horrible results and rarely if ever takes any responsibility for bad things occurring and frequently assigns it to people below him. Sometimes selectively and clearly to his favorites. This is horrible leadership and rarely gets good results in any industry.
2) Mara says overly sentimental things too often in public and the team displays sentimental behavior which as the league evolves seems to hurt them more and more.
3) For over a decade the team Mara has lead has been one of the worst if not the worst in the NFL overall.
Even if you reject 1 and 2 which you shouldn't, 3 is the trump card and the only important question. Why should it really matter exactly HOW bad each of these GMs are if they perform poorly under the same leadership team?
How many poor choices by the GM was enforced by Mara? How often are these occurrences?
I think it is important to know who is responsible for the successes and the failures of the team. I can say Mara is not involved and is not responsible but I don't know that any more than you know that is Mara is responsible for.
I think assigning blame when we don't know who is to blame leads to faulty analysis.
If Mara is the driving force behind the many mistake that has set this team back while not being responsible for any of the good then that is obviously a very bad situation.
If Mara is not the driving force behind these mistakes then we have mistakes that were poor choices by GM's and Coaches. Of course a mixture is possible as well.
Would you say that you are assigning blame to Mara for the many mistakes that have lead to the current state of the franchise?
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And that's okay to an extent. How many owners in any business are completely hands off? If you believe Schoen had full autonomy in the Jones decision, I am not sure what to tell you. If you believe the hiring of DG wasn't in part at least influenced by his belief that Manning had years left (a view that aligned very clearly with Mara), I don't know what to tell you.
I diverge on the Jones situation. While I'm sure Mara was/is ecstatic that Jones had a good enough year in 2022 to get rewarded so handsomely, the decision to decline the 5th year option points to Schoen owning the Jones decisions.
Because that decision came on the heels of the infamous quote from Mara during the press conference introducing Schoen.: "We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up."
Despite being within five feet away when Mara said that, Schoen still declined the 5th year option two and a half months later. How can anyone think Mara was behind that?
There is no one on this board who has spent as much time as me crushing Mara before Schoen arrived. Nobody. So, I can't be mistaken as some Mara apologist.
People need to wake up a little bit and get the spotlight more on Schoen. He's possibly a bigger problem than many think...
I mostly agree but I can't get too worked up over this with Schoen because there's an occam's razor element to this:
-Schoen/Daboll have a surprisingly successful first season in which Jones plays like a top 15 QB. THey are out of the running for Stroud/Young and FA QBs Carr and Geno don't represent clear upgrades based on Jones 2022 performance.
-They commit to Jones on a deal with a modest out after the 2024 season. They overpaid, they are probably aware that they overpaid, but - and this is the only part where Mara's influence and traditional Giants naivete comes in - a few extra million to make all parties involved satisfied isn't the worst thing in the world in their minds.
-They look to build on Jones' 2022 success. They probably convince themselves: We made a guy with good physical tools into a top 15 QB, who's to say we can't raise his ceiling?
-Unfortunately, they get way too cute in building and coaching the OL, and on top of that, Jones looks completely out to lunch in the opening four games.
I think the last part is key; we've seen it leaked that the many people in the building were mystified by Jones' performance. I think they just didn't expect the regression. You could argue that they should've been aware that Jones was a bottom third QB by every metric before 2022, but I would be willing to bet they thought "good lord, Garrett/Judge sucked and WE can clearly mold Jones into a great player"
So it wasn't ideal decision making, and likely involved some hubris, but I get it to some extent. I only hope Schoen now realizes that 2022 was likely an exception for Jones and not a path forward.
To that point, even when a team has a qb with exciting potential, the team still does not have a qb until they secure themselves among the best. A team putting all of its eggs in one basket when it comes to quarterback are certainly vulnerable to spending too much time with a quarterback that may not reach their expectations. However, I don't think it is necessarily easy to have multiple qbs on the roster that the team believes can be the guy without adding too much pressure. It can be a finicky situation.
Taking out the human element of players (obviously you can't), having multiple players at quarterback with big potential would be ideal.
Change great to 'acceptable', and I'm with you. there's a big middle ground between the two extremes.
The whole team entered the season with a serious regression that almost no one expected. Jones was a big part of the equation, but he isn't the sole part.
Taking out the human element of players (obviously you can't), having multiple players at quarterback with big potential would be ideal.
I think the "franchise QB" concept is less about the QBs and more about branding and selling jerseys.
I think management of the QB position is perhaps the biggest inefficiency in how the league is run. Too many big contracts, not enough focus on creating depth and competition.
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Taking out the human element of players (obviously you can't), having multiple players at quarterback with big potential would be ideal.
I think the "franchise QB" concept is less about the QBs and more about branding and selling jerseys.
I think management of the QB position is perhaps the biggest inefficiency in how the league is run. Too many big contracts, not enough focus on creating depth and competition.
I can see that. The NFL has treated the qb situation very delicately as long as I have been watching. Teams try to avoid, maybe too much upsetting the starting quarterback by drafting a qb high and announcing that 'he is our guy' which limits what kind of talent you bring in behind him. Having multiple quarterbacks on the roster that you believe in seems to give a team a better chance at finding their guy.
One of the big divides about Jones on BBI was the surrounding roster. There were a lot of posters (me included) that felt early on the roster was making it difficult to evaluate the qb. What if you have a guy behind Jones at the time that the team also believed in that could be inserted to compare the differences. But, again the human element can be tricky when letting multiple quarterbacks play.
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And that's okay to an extent. How many owners in any business are completely hands off? If you believe Schoen had full autonomy in the Jones decision, I am not sure what to tell you. If you believe the hiring of DG wasn't in part at least influenced by his belief that Manning had years left (a view that aligned very clearly with Mara), I don't know what to tell you.
I diverge on the Jones situation. While I'm sure Mara was/is ecstatic that Jones had a good enough year in 2022 to get rewarded so handsomely, the decision to decline the 5th year option points to Schoen owning the Jones decisions.
Because that decision came on the heels of the infamous quote from Mara during the press conference introducing Schoen.: "We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up."
Despite being within five feet away when Mara said that, Schoen still declined the 5th year option two and a half months later. How can anyone think Mara was behind that?
There is no one on this board who has spent as much time as me crushing Mara before Schoen arrived. Nobody. So, I can't be mistaken as some Mara apologist.
People need to wake up a little bit and get the spotlight more on Schoen. He's possibly a bigger problem than many think...
I believe you have this correct BW. Yes, Mara is a meddling owner, but he will do so in a passive aggressive manner so as to preserve the plausible deniability that he is a meddling owner, as others have pointed out on this thread. So being a GM of this franchise requires the fortitude to make tough decisions that the owner may not agree with. "Saving Mara from himself" therefore being perhaps the most important criterion of the Giants GM job, as George Young proved with Wellington forty years ago.
In the case of DJ and SB, there was only one course of action that made any sense given Mara's clear impulse and expectation to invest in them, and it was self-evident at the time. Apply the franchise tag to DJ and give Barkley a take it or leave it "Jonathan Taylor type contract" that simply guaranteed the dollars of a second franchise tag. Yes, both are gross overpayments to these two players as Terps points out. But given the playoff win and the pure politics of the situation, Schoen needed to be perceived as trying to retain both them. But he needed to do so in a sensible manner only.
Instead, he allowed his analytical expertise on positional value cloud his judgment. Instead of using the carrot for the quarterback position and the stick for the running back position, he completely missed the self-evident point that in this particular case, his quarterback is a middling talent but his running back is an elite talent, arguably a top three player at the position in the league. So the franchise tag stick needed to be applied to DJ and the multi-year guarantee carrot should have been offered to Barkley. Instead he made the worst possible decision possible. He gave DJ the most overvalued contract perhaps in major sports history, and stabbed Barkley in the back by pinching pennies to make a point on positional value.
So no matter how strong the desire is to blame Mara, and I do agree with the OP's premise that Mara has a strong desire to influence and impact personnel matters, much like any other NFL owner (see David Tepper), the fault in making these choices belongs completely with Schoen. Schoen needed to be George Young last year and stand up to Mara's well intended but misguided predilections on personnel.
Can Schoen rebound? Let's hope so. And hope that he has learned an invaluable lesson, albeit the hard way, and pivots immediately to running this team focused on winning championships, rather than useless sentimentality.
We all want Schoen to be the savior just like we hoped Judge was. The fact is, the first major decision Schoen made has been proven extremely costly and will have a financial impact through 2025 at minimum.
Schoen gave Jones the contract he got. If he didn't really want to (which I don't believe) that is even worse than it being a bad decision. That means it was a bad process that will likely repeat itself.
Schoen signed Jones, not John Mara.
Even if the Giants hit on a rookie QB in this draft, the benefit of that will have been mitigated by Jones's drag on the team cap. It is far worse to pay the wrong QB than it is to draft the wrong QB. Of course, the Giants did both.
If Schoen's evaluation was Jones was a $100M QB, worth the money, and the future if the team, then I think he should be fired. Then he knows less about evaluating QBs than I do.
If Schoen's evaluation was Jones was a $100M QB, worth the money, and the future if the team, then I think he should be fired. Then he knows less about evaluating QBs than I do.
If Schoen gave Jones a $100M to appease the owner while giving himself 2 years to pivot away from Jones, then he is an idiot. He may not have two years left to correct that error.
I believe you have this correct BW. Yes, Mara is a meddling owner, but he will do so in a passive aggressive manner so as to preserve the plausible deniability that he is a meddling owner, as others have pointed out on this thread. So being a GM of this franchise requires the fortitude to make tough decisions that the owner may not agree with. "Saving Mara from himself" therefore being perhaps the most important criterion of the Giants GM job, as George Young proved with Wellington forty years ago.
In the case of DJ and SB, there was only one course of action that made any sense given Mara's clear impulse and expectation to invest in them, and it was self-evident at the time. Apply the franchise tag to DJ and give Barkley a take it or leave it "Jonathan Taylor type contract" that simply guaranteed the dollars of a second franchise tag. Yes, both are gross overpayments to these two players as Terps points out. But given the playoff win and the pure politics of the situation, Schoen needed to be perceived as trying to retain both them. But he needed to do so in a sensible manner only.
Instead, he allowed his analytical expertise on positional value cloud his judgment. Instead of using the carrot for the quarterback position and the stick for the running back position, he completely missed the self-evident point that in this particular case, his quarterback is a middling talent but his running back is an elite talent, arguably a top three player at the position in the league. So the franchise tag stick needed to be applied to DJ and the multi-year guarantee carrot should have been offered to Barkley. Instead he made the worst possible decision possible. He gave DJ the most overvalued contract perhaps in major sports history, and stabbed Barkley in the back by pinching pennies to make a point on positional value.
So no matter how strong the desire is to blame Mara, and I do agree with the OP's premise that Mara has a strong desire to influence and impact personnel matters, much like any other NFL owner (see David Tepper), the fault in making these choices belongs completely with Schoen. Schoen needed to be George Young last year and stand up to Mara's well intended but misguided predilections on personnel.
Can Schoen rebound? Let's hope so. And hope that he has learned an invaluable lesson, albeit the hard way, and pivots immediately to running this team focused on winning championships, rather than useless sentimentality.
This is a good post The Mike.
Other than the part of Barkley currently being an elite talent, I think you have the right sentiments here.
Then the market could have decided their value.
In both cases the Giants would have been better off.
And unlike the franchise tag, if they chose to resign Jones it would not have been an unworkable cap hit
I'm a believer in drafting QBs at some point every year, but controlling for the likelihood the Giants don't feel the same way it probably doesn't make sense for them to even draft a QB at all. They're financially committed to Jones. In their construct what makes sense is to bring in a vet or give Taylor a new contract to be the placeholder until Jones is ready.
If I'm Schoen and I'm doing things the Giants way, the next time to really look at drafting a "franchise QB" is the 2025 or 2026 draft. That doesn't rule out the possibility of taking a developmental QB on day 3 of the 2024 draft.
I'd like to emphasize that this is not what I would do.
If Schoen's evaluation was Jones was a $100M QB, worth the money, and the future if the team, then I think he should be fired. Then he knows less about evaluating QBs than I do.
This was an odd way to put that but I get what you're saying.
The Schoen evaluation of Jones is disturbing, and even moreso not having the prudent judgment to avail himself to the franchise tag based on the situation.
All Schoen did was make his job that much harder as a young GM trying to turn around a bad team. Drafting the right guy at QB in April will go a long way in doing that though. And will increase my confidence that he is the right guy for this job.
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gave in and gave Jones a $100M to appease the owner while giving himself 2 years to pivot away from Jones, I can give him a pass.
If Schoen's evaluation was Jones was a $100M QB, worth the money, and the future if the team, then I think he should be fired. Then he knows less about evaluating QBs than I do.
This was an odd way to put that but I get what you're saying.
The Schoen evaluation of Jones is disturbing, and even moreso not having the prudent judgment to avail himself to the franchise tag based on the situation.
All Schoen did was make his job that much harder as a young GM trying to turn around a bad team. Drafting the right guy at QB in April will go a long way in doing that though. And will increase my confidence that he is the right guy for this job.
He fired one of the few arrows in his quiver when he signed Jones. It was a waste. He should have known it would be a waste. And now he only has a few big shots remaining. Let's hope he uses them wisely
Jayden Daniels will flip the perception of the team among fans and the national media. He would provide hope which is a big thing in professional sports.
The fanbase won't be okay with a status quo QB room unless DeVito went on some ridiculous tear to end the season.
Jayden Daniels will flip the perception of the team among fans and the national media. He would provide hope which is a big thing in professional sports.
The fanbase won't be okay with a status quo QB room unless DeVito went on some ridiculous tear to end the season.
I don't know that the general fanbase shares that perception about the QB room, or about Jones. I hope they do, but my suspicion is that if they don't draft a guy in round 1 or 2 we'll be hearing about Jones in a positive light before too long.
There's an overarching lesson here that we need to remember if they smarten up and move on from Jones: don't get too attached to the next QB. Shorten the leash, lose the blue glasses, and skew early on admitting we may have missed. This Jones situation is a fucking death trap that we must never repeat.
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If he doesn't, he'll be fired. It's that simple. That is the way out but as Terps said, Jones is still costly.
I'm a believer in drafting QBs at some point every year, but controlling for the likelihood the Giants don't feel the same way it probably doesn't make sense for them to even draft a QB at all. They're financially committed to Jones. In their construct what makes sense is to bring in a vet or give Taylor a new contract to be the placeholder until Jones is ready.
If I'm Schoen and I'm doing things the Giants way, the next time to really look at drafting a "franchise QB" is the 2025 or 2026 draft. That doesn't rule out the possibility of taking a developmental QB on day 3 of the 2024 draft.
I'd like to emphasize that this is not what I would do.
And you are right about the approach to quarterback. And have been for years.
Schoen has to identify the best possible successor in this upcoming draft and get him. If he doesn't and just rolls it back with DJ for a sixth year, which is beyond impossible to comprehend at the point, then it proves Schoen is nothing more than another "Gettleman-Like" lackey and not capable of doing the job necessary to turning this thing around. More than anything else, the locker room knows this and will be lost completely before the 2024 season even begins.
At which point the fate of Schoen and Daboll will be sealed and both will be gone before the sun rises on 2025...
None of the expensive contracts to the lower tier QB's have worked (Jones, Carr, Garoppolo).
I actually think what the Packers did with Love was smart. Sign him cheap and avoid the NYG/Jones situation. They have him at a cheap deal for a few years and it looks like he can be serviceable.
None of the expensive contracts to the lower tier QB's have worked (Jones, Carr, Garoppolo).
I actually think what the Packers did with Love was smart. Sign him cheap and avoid the NYG/Jones situation. They have him at a cheap deal for a few years and it looks like he can be serviceable.
I agree the elite guys will continue to get paid. The question is on the definition of elite. There are 18 QBs with an AAV over $20M this year. There's no way there should be that many.
But that is not market economics, Or at least it is a lazy take with a market economics tag slapped on.
In true market economics a QB should be paid by how likely they are to get you to Super Bowls, and by their place in line on a QB list, which fluctuates wildly year to year when you go below the top-8 anyway.
And by that measure Mahomes and Burrow caliber QBs get big dollars, and QBs in Jones' range don't get 85% of Mahomnes, they get 10 to 20% of Mahomes.
It is a binary. Are you likely to get us to a Super Bowl? If yes - huge contract. Are you a starting QB who is unlikely to get us to a Super Bowl? If yes - 10%/20% of top contracts as a ceiling.
But of course the Giants seem incapable of such analysis, and we have to do the dumb thing and pay the 15th best QB on a scale with Mahomes and Burrow.
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And that's okay to an extent. How many owners in any business are completely hands off? If you believe Schoen had full autonomy in the Jones decision, I am not sure what to tell you. If you believe the hiring of DG wasn't in part at least influenced by his belief that Manning had years left (a view that aligned very clearly with Mara), I don't know what to tell you.
I diverge on the Jones situation. While I'm sure Mara was/is ecstatic that Jones had a good enough year in 2022 to get rewarded so handsomely, the decision to decline the 5th year option points to Schoen owning the Jones decisions.
Because that decision came on the heels of the infamous quote from Mara during the press conference introducing Schoen.: "We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up."
Despite being within five feet away when Mara said that, Schoen still declined the 5th year option two and a half months later. How can anyone think Mara was behind that?
There is no one on this board who has spent as much time as me crushing Mara before Schoen arrived. Nobody. So, I can't be mistaken as some Mara apologist.
People need to wake up a little bit and get the spotlight more on Schoen. He's possibly a bigger problem than many think...
What I do not want to do is blow it all up again. TC learned things late in his career, maybe Daboll can figure it out sooner. I think Schoen is the right guy, time will surely tell.
Constant turnover of management is an obstacle to success that is nearly insurmountable unless you can lure the very best. I don't see the best wanting to be here. Why would you come?
We all want Schoen to be the savior just like we hoped Judge was. The fact is, the first major decision Schoen made has been proven extremely costly and will have a financial impact through 2025 at minimum.
Part of the problem is that the Giants collectively painted themselves into a corner by making it obvious what they wanted to do. Mara made no secret of the organization's desire to keep Jones and Barkley, which essentially telegraphed to Jones's agent that they needed to sign him to a contract in order to franchise Barkley. That put a hard deadline on signing Jones, and predictably he was signed mere hours before the Franchise Tag deadline.
None of this is to fully excuse Schoen, but to put a deadline on yourself in that negotiation is to give the upper hand to the other side. Kudos to Jones's agent for using that to his advantage and getting a deal he never would have gotten elsewhere.
Some of the better and perfectly qualified GMs have paid QBs and lived to regret it. That doesn't mean it was a comical or ridiculously bad decision to pay the guy. Hindsight is 20-20. It's not an indictment on Schoen as much as it was just a bad year from Jones and Daboll and probably some bad luck, which I know some of you refuse to believe in, but it's there for all the world to see year in year out. The team collapsed. They liked Jones. They paid Jones. Jones sucked early and then got hurt, thus wiping out any chance at all for him to salvage this brutally bad season.
In order to accept things you need to be a little more tolerant or accepting of what DJ did in 2022. If you don't want to, then you will never understand the contract and instead you can bitterly count those paltry 15tds he threw in your sleep to make you feel better. Just don't forget the rushing yards and TDs because those count too.
HE had an average starting QB year and got paid for it. Welcome to pro sports. Killing the GM now? Cmon already you're gonna bail on this guy just like that? I thought he was Joe Cool?
One contract. Get over it.
And maybe he can come back in September and play like he did in 2022. I know, impossible. Sure.
It really isn't the end of the world unless you want to to be. NYG won 10 games in 2022 with Galloday walking through his routes and earning like 15 million or more.
Find great players. Everything else will fall into place, and yes, I mean QB as well. This staff knows how to scout and develop players. Don't lose sight of that just because they singned a guy you love to hate.
Carry on.
If I told you Jayden Daniels was there when the Giants were on the clock in the first round, and that Schoen and Daboll thought he could be a star, why would you pass on him because you have someone expensive? The idea of the draft is to acquire top talent everywhere. You can't take any position off the board that needs improvement because you already have a guy that plays the same position, but poorly.
The idea is to bring in talent and win football games, not carefully manage how much of your cap is going to the QB room.
You don't chase mistakes. You learn from them and move on.
To me the best coaches and GMs have strong convictions and aren't afraid to take big swings even if they aren't popular with fans and ownership. Howie Roseman drafting Hurts was widely ridiculed in Eagleland.
Schoen's decision to overpay a mediocre talent falls into one of three categories:
1. Poor analysis and evaluation
2. Giving into ownership
3. Playing it safe
They're all bad. He has an opportunity to fix it and I hope he starts on a course of bold decisions based on cutting edge thinking and analysis to take our team to the top.
What I do not want to do is blow it all up again. TC learned things late in his career, maybe Daboll can figure it out sooner. I think Schoen is the right guy, time will surely tell.
Constant turnover of management is an obstacle to success that is nearly insurmountable unless you can lure the very best. I don't see the best wanting to be here. Why would you come?
I'm okay with Schoen getting more time, too. But for his first big decision - the Jones contract - I believe he failed. So, I'm willing to see how he works he way out if it and into a better solution. But he should be on the clock...
Let me add this. I think the real way to build a football program at the NFL level is like the 49ers have it. The HC (Shanahan) picks the GM (Lynch) and the GM reports to the HC. And all personnel decisions are finalized by the HC. I don't want a GM to have final say or have to go to the owners to break a tie. The HC knows the system he wants to run and the type of players he wants to add.
Big college football programs have Directors of Recruiting and/or Heads of Football Operations who reports up to the HC. And they report up to the HC.
If I told you Jayden Daniels was there when the Giants were on the clock in the first round, and that Schoen and Daboll thought he could be a star, why would you pass on him because you have someone expensive? The idea of the draft is to acquire top talent everywhere. You can't take any position off the board that needs improvement because you already have a guy that plays the same position, but poorly.
The idea is to bring in talent and win football games, not carefully manage how much of your cap is going to the QB room.
You don't chase mistakes. You learn from them and move on.
I agree. I'm not sure the Giants will. They'd have to view Jones as a mistake first.
None of the expensive contracts to the lower tier QB's have worked (Jones, Carr, Garoppolo).
I actually think what the Packers did with Love was smart. Sign him cheap and avoid the NYG/Jones situation. They have him at a cheap deal for a few years and it looks like he can be serviceable.
Fair point ... or look at traditional team building. You can have an offense that can produce points "effeciently" without an elite QB. For it to work you need to have an excellent D and good to very good run game. ST needs a really good punter and coverage team. The rules has made KOs "easy" to handle.
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Hard to evaluate a GM early, it just is. Also, I am a business owner. If I am hiring a brilliant but inexperienced team member, I am expecting some mistakes. There is a lot of subjectivity in the decisions a GM must make and the best of them, blow the QB thing. There are just so few of them born that can actually succeed at QB in the NFL.
What I do not want to do is blow it all up again. TC learned things late in his career, maybe Daboll can figure it out sooner. I think Schoen is the right guy, time will surely tell.
Constant turnover of management is an obstacle to success that is nearly insurmountable unless you can lure the very best. I don't see the best wanting to be here. Why would you come?
I'm okay with Schoen getting more time, too. But for his first big decision - the Jones contract - I believe he failed. So, I'm willing to see how he works he way out if it and into a better solution. But he should be on the clock...
Let me add this. I think the real way to build a football program at the NFL level is like the 49ers have it. The HC (Shanahan) picks the GM (Lynch) and the GM reports to the HC. And all personnel decisions are finalized by the HC. I don't want a GM to have final say or have to go to the owners to break a tie. The HC knows the system he wants to run and the type of players he wants to add.
Big college football programs have Directors of Recruiting and/or Heads of Football Operations who reports up to the HC. And they report up to the HC.
John Madden said the best organizational structure is the one that has the fewest elements between the head coach and the owner. The modern day successful example of that is obviously the Patriots. It can go wrong obviously if you hire the wrong guy, but it does reduce the likelihood that all oars are not rowing synchronously in the same direction.
The Giants obviously don't have that structure. There are a lot of people influencing decisions.
The Athletic ranked the won/loss record of the 32 NFL owners.
Owner since: Oct. 26, 2005
Playoff record: 9-5 (2-0 in Super Bowls)
Coach inherited: Tom Coughlin
Coaches hired: Ben McAdoo (13-15), Pat Shurmur (9-23), Joe Judge (10-23), Brian Daboll (13-15-1)
The Mara name is legendary in the NFL, but the franchise’s trajectory since Hall of Famer Wellington Mara merits some scrutiny.
With Coughlin already in place, the Giants won two Super Bowls in the first six seasons after John Mara took over for his father. The team ranks 27th in winning percentage since that second Super Bowl victory following the 2011 season. The Giants’ 82-123-1 (.400) record over that span outranks the records for the Commanders, Raiders, Jets, Browns and Jaguars. The Lions recently overtook the Giants since 2012.
The Giants won/loss record ranks 27th in the NFL since 2012.
The Athletic ranked the won/loss record of the 32 NFL owners.
Quote:
Number 20: John Mara
Owner since: Oct. 26, 2005
Playoff record: 9-5 (2-0 in Super Bowls)
Coach inherited: Tom Coughlin
Coaches hired: Ben McAdoo (13-15), Pat Shurmur (9-23), Joe Judge (10-23), Brian Daboll (13-15-1)
The Mara name is legendary in the NFL, but the franchise’s trajectory since Hall of Famer Wellington Mara merits some scrutiny.
With Coughlin already in place, the Giants won two Super Bowls in the first six seasons after John Mara took over for his father. The team ranks 27th in winning percentage since that second Super Bowl victory following the 2011 season. The Giants’ 82-123-1 (.400) record over that span outranks the records for the Commanders, Raiders, Jets, Browns and Jaguars. The Lions recently overtook the Giants since 2012.
The Giants won/loss record ranks 27th in the NFL since 2012.