From his mailbag earlier.
Some snippets…
1) Mara isn’t like Jerruh when it comes to being involved in personnel calls.
2) Chris Mara has taken a step back in terms of personnel decisions per his sources.
3) Tim McDonnell-‘the nephew’ as I like to call him-has a ‘prominent role as director of player personnel.’
4) Duggan doesn’t think Mara is telling Schoen what to do, but he can’t speak as to the implicit influence that might be there.
5) Duggan believes Schoen made the final call in terms of Jones and Saquon, but again notes how ownership might have subconsciously influenced Joe into the Jones contract/decision because of Mara’s public gushing over the kid.
6) Duggan speculates Mara might step in to mend the Dabs/Wink relationship.
7) Duggan himself doesn’t think John is telling the football ops what to do on ‘individual moves.’
I agree with the first part for sure. Just not sure if a first time GM could have pulled that off, especially after the owner blamed himself for Jones's failures.
I disagree with the second part because the overrated "success" could have been mitigated by not concluding that it was worth 4yrs/$160M, $92M guaranteed.
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The 2023 QB franchise tag was $32.3M. Under no circumstances is it a good idea to pay Daniel Jones $32.3M. We already had Tyrod Taylor on the books for $5.5M.
The reason the franchise tag was bad, was the $32 mill was etched in stone against the cap and there would have been almost no money left for any signings.
IIRC, they at $45-$47 mill in cap space. Jones eating $32 mill would have left $15 mill total, so in effect $10 mill for other signings. I know you would have let Barkley go, but they needed money for Okereke, Slayton, A'Shawn and Nacho and few other lower level deals. Plus they needed $5 to $8 mill for draft signees(more or less).
I hear you, but I believe there were other ways to free up cash with some other bold/creative roster moves.
I don't know if you are following the Rams this year, but that team McVey and Snead have put together on a shoestring budget should be case study material for the Wharton Business School. Just take a look at that roster, who is starting, where they were drafted/obtained, and how much they are getting paid.
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The real courage would have been moving off Jones in Schoen's first offseason. Trade him for a conditional draft pick. Declining the option and starting Jones was risky because NYG would be stuck if there was success, and that's what happened.
I agree with the first part for sure. Just not sure if a first time GM could have pulled that off, especially after the owner blamed himself for Jones's failures.
I disagree with the second part because the overrated "success" could have been mitigated by not concluding that it was worth 4yrs/$160M, $92M guaranteed.
And this is why Schoen gets an error for his first major decision. We'll see how he responds in roughly 140 days.
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In comment 16314433 Go Terps said:
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The 2023 QB franchise tag was $32.3M. Under no circumstances is it a good idea to pay Daniel Jones $32.3M. We already had Tyrod Taylor on the books for $5.5M.
The reason the franchise tag was bad, was the $32 mill was etched in stone against the cap and there would have been almost no money left for any signings.
IIRC, they at $45-$47 mill in cap space. Jones eating $32 mill would have left $15 mill total, so in effect $10 mill for other signings. I know you would have let Barkley go, but they needed money for Okereke, Slayton, A'Shawn and Nacho and few other lower level deals. Plus they needed $5 to $8 mill for draft signees(more or less).
I hear you, but I believe there were other ways to free up cash with some other bold/creative roster moves.
I don't know if you are following the Rams this year, but that team McVey and Snead have put together on a shoestring budget should be case study material for the Wharton Business School. Just take a look at that roster, who is starting, where they were drafted/obtained, and how much they are getting paid.
You are correct on them putting together a respectable team. Shocked the hell out of me. I don't know who they released to get cap space. They had good bones in many places.
It is just one of the things the Giants have not done for over a decade. Of course, that staff in LA has been together for numerous years and the deadwood had been removed from the FO and staff.
No arguments from me. Green Bay and Houston, too.
Not liking Jones is one thing. Being extreme on making a bad situation worse is another, and not fair for Daboll or Schoen.
Taylor absolutely did have consequence. They paid him. They had history with him. And if there were concerns over Taylor's health and/or who they could draft, there were a number of QBs on Jones's level who were available:
Andy Dalton 2/10
Jarrett Stidham 2/10
Jacoby Brissett 1/8
Mike White 2/8
Marcus Mariota 1/5
Sam Darnold 1/4.5
Gardner Minshew 1/3.5
And that's just a few. Would you rather pay Minshew 1/3.5 or Jones 4/160?
The Jones contract is crazy.
I do find it odd how most pro Jones articles in the media ALWAYS cite his 'work ethic' to prop him up. It tells me the reporters/beats don't have much to work with so thus the 'Well, he's a hard worker' card.
& for the record, I bet he is a hard worker. And a diligent & willing learner. He seems like a good dude. He's never been arrested. That's all great. There's just the small issue of winning big & him being an elite QB...that's where he fails.
The attachment to him is so bizarre.
The attachment is all about emotional associations they make with him. He reminds them, and Mara, of something else, another player (Eli), an ideal son or son in law, an ideal of manhood, someone they want to be like, etc, you can fill in the blanks. And it makes them goofy.
It's certainly not about football, because almost everyone who follows the NFL and isn't a Giants fan, had the same assessment of Jones before the contract. Not worth the money. Mediocre player.
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In comment 16314314 Sean said:
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1. Hire a GM from outside the organization. (check)
2. Allow that GM to hire the head coach. (check)
3. Allow said GM to bring in talent beneath him from outside the organization. (check)
4. Be in front of the media less. (check) I'll add that Mara did not introduce Daboll to the media (Schoen did), in the past Mara always did this with head coaches.
The team is 4-8, so the default is to go back and bash Mara despite him doing what many people said he never would. "Well, Mara wanted to keep Judge." He didn't keep Judge. I'm not interested in speculating what could have happened. He did what we wanted.
He didn't keep his mouth shut on the quarterback on the eve of contract negotiations, and that contract is currently the biggest mistake looking over this year, 2024, and 2025.
No one knows for sure whose call the Jones contract was, but someone in the building was stupid enough to ok that decision. Ultimately it falls on the owner for either influencing the decision or hiring incompetent people.
It was the wrong decision, for this year. It s not over yet.
Seriously? JFC. What is it with people? It was the wrong decision, PERIOD. Daniel Jones is not a good NFL QB. Whose ever fault it was, it doesn’t matter. They made a critical mistake.
All of you Jones Pollyanna’s need to wake the up. The Giants are going NOWHERE with him as the franchise QB.
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No, it was within reason of tagging him if Schoen didn't like what he could reach for at QB in the last draft. A one year tag set nobody back in the NFL, unless you are a moron GM. Taylor has no consequence as he can't even stay on the field for more than 2 games in a row. He's not in the formula.
Not liking Jones is one thing. Being extreme on making a bad situation worse is another, and not fair for Daboll or Schoen.
Taylor absolutely did have consequence. They paid him. They had history with him. And if there were concerns over Taylor's health and/or who they could draft, there were a number of QBs on Jones's level who were available:
Andy Dalton 2/10
Jarrett Stidham 2/10
Jacoby Brissett 1/8
Mike White 2/8
Marcus Mariota 1/5
Sam Darnold 1/4.5
Gardner Minshew 1/3.5
And that's just a few. Would you rather pay Minshew 1/3.5 or Jones 4/160?
The Jones contract is crazy.
Do you realize how crazy you sound when you make those comparisons? Comparing Jason Stidham who has 133 career passing attempts to DJ and saying they are equal? Do you even think about what you post or just throw shit against a wall for the purpose of gaining reactions?
You could say the same thing for any player at any cost. If they paid Dane Belton $150M would we be saying "let's wait and see?" After all what if he turns into Ed Reed?
I just listed a bunch of QBs who are as good as Jones and are making, in some cases, 1/40th of his total contract. Are Jones's chances of justifying his contract any better than Jarrett Stidham justifying sometime paying him $160M?
You can't play players on the speculation that they'll become something they've never been.
Seriously? JFC. What is it with people? It was the wrong decision, PERIOD. Daniel Jones is not a good NFL QB. Whose ever fault it was, it doesn’t matter. They made a critical mistake.
All of you Jones Pollyanna’s need to wake the up. The Giants are going NOWHERE with him as the franchise QB.
You know the old saying in the NFL - you don't know what you have in a QB until the 6th year or later...
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It was the wrong decision, for this year. It s not over yet.
You could say the same thing for any player at any cost. If they paid Dane Belton $150M would we be saying "let's wait and see?" After all what if he turns into Ed Reed?
I just listed a bunch of QBs who are as good as Jones and are making, in some cases, 1/40th of his total contract. Are Jones's chances of justifying his contract any better than Jarrett Stidham justifying sometime paying him $160M?
You can't play players on the speculation that they'll become something they've never been.
*Can't pay players...
This is like Jonestown. It is a fucking cult. I have NEVER seen a Giant get this much leeway among a portion of the fanbase.
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In comment 16314441 ThomasG said:
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No, it was within reason of tagging him if Schoen didn't like what he could reach for at QB in the last draft. A one year tag set nobody back in the NFL, unless you are a moron GM. Taylor has no consequence as he can't even stay on the field for more than 2 games in a row. He's not in the formula.
Not liking Jones is one thing. Being extreme on making a bad situation worse is another, and not fair for Daboll or Schoen.
Taylor absolutely did have consequence. They paid him. They had history with him. And if there were concerns over Taylor's health and/or who they could draft, there were a number of QBs on Jones's level who were available:
Andy Dalton 2/10
Jarrett Stidham 2/10
Jacoby Brissett 1/8
Mike White 2/8
Marcus Mariota 1/5
Sam Darnold 1/4.5
Gardner Minshew 1/3.5
And that's just a few. Would you rather pay Minshew 1/3.5 or Jones 4/160?
The Jones contract is crazy.
Do you realize how crazy you sound when you make those comparisons? Comparing Jason Stidham who has 133 career passing attempts to DJ and saying they are equal? Do you even think about what you post or just throw shit against a wall for the purpose of gaining reactions?
It might be a true comparison. We'll see what Stidham does in the future. But Bortles, Trubisky, Osweiler are rock solid comps.
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No, it was within reason of tagging him if Schoen didn't like what he could reach for at QB in the last draft. A one year tag set nobody back in the NFL, unless you are a moron GM. Taylor has no consequence as he can't even stay on the field for more than 2 games in a row. He's not in the formula.
Not liking Jones is one thing. Being extreme on making a bad situation worse is another, and not fair for Daboll or Schoen.
Taylor absolutely did have consequence. They paid him. They had history with him. And if there were concerns over Taylor's health and/or who they could draft, there were a number of QBs on Jones's level who were available:
Andy Dalton 2/10
Jarrett Stidham 2/10
Jacoby Brissett 1/8
Mike White 2/8
Marcus Mariota 1/5
Sam Darnold 1/4.5
Gardner Minshew 1/3.5
And that's just a few. Would you rather pay Minshew 1/3.5 or Jones 4/160?
The Jones contract is crazy.
Taylor has no value. He has clearly shown he can't go more than about 50+ snaps in a row without getting hurt, and this has been over 2 years now.
Again, not liking Jones is fine. But either cutting him loose altogether (for an aggressive franchise) or tagging him (for a conservative franchise) both worked. Longer term contract stuff was a mistake but not because we had Taylor at the ready.
This is like Jonestown. It is a fucking cult. I have NEVER seen a Giant get this much leeway among a portion of the fanbase.
I'm starting to agree with this opinion. For some people, there is nothing that can happen for them to give up on Jones. When he's backing up somewhere after the Giants, these people will still say "oh, well Jones never really got a chance with a good O Line and good skill players." I'm not sure that there's anything that would change their minds.
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Going into Jones' sixth-SIXTH!!!-& people still are holding out hope based on a '22 season where he threw 15 TDs.
This is like Jonestown. It is a fucking cult. I have NEVER seen a Giant get this much leeway among a portion of the fanbase.
I'm starting to agree with this opinion. For some people, there is nothing that can happen for them to give up on Jones. When he's backing up somewhere after the Giants, these people will still say "oh, well Jones never really got a chance with a good O Line and good skill players." I'm not sure that there's anything that would change their minds.
Fwiw, I think the people who see a cult, belong to a cult themselves.
The rest of us that are ready to move on, just move on.
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In comment 16314442 joeinpa said:
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It was the wrong decision, for this year. It s not over yet.
You could say the same thing for any player at any cost. If they paid Dane Belton $150M would we be saying "let's wait and see?" After all what if he turns into Ed Reed?
I just listed a bunch of QBs who are as good as Jones and are making, in some cases, 1/40th of his total contract. Are Jones's chances of justifying his contract any better than Jarrett Stidham justifying sometime paying him $160M?
You can't play players on the speculation that they'll become something they've never been.
*Can't pay players...
All I m saying is there’s another year coming where he will be part of the roster. Right now the decision has backfired, but stranger things have happened
I m in the camp his performance last season warranted a contract, Schoen agreed. It hasn’t worked out for many reasons, not all Daniel’s fault.
We ll see what happens going forward.
Even if the Giants draft a quarterback, I think they should, there s chance he would sit behind Jones for a season.
This is like Jonestown. It is a fucking cult. I have NEVER seen a Giant get this much leeway among a portion of the fanbase.
It s football for crying out loud, you sure you want to compare it to Jonestown.
2. Any attempts by the team or fans to pretend Mara doesn't have personnel influence reeks of insecurity. You don't litter your family in personnel to be "hands off." You attempt to cover this up because the real issue is the quality of that influence. And the more you have to own having influence the last 10 years the more you have to own just how bad you've been. A lot of fans do this because to face it is to face just how fucked we are tied to this small, small, garbage can kicking man.
3. GTFO with John-boy distancing himself and blaming JS for Jones contract. You are going to say we did everything to screw this kid up? Blame the other players on your team? Declare the guy the starter when your new coach and GM start after he's been horrible and then pretend like you aren't involved in him getting GROSSLY overpaid. You are being intellectually dishonest or willfully ignorant to not see that connection.
4. You Pollyanna's probably think you are harmless but the only thing we know about our thin-skinned born on third base loser of an owner is that if he can get away with giving away a medium Pepsi that is what he will do. All he wants is to say whatever he wants to say even if it hurts his negotiating leverage and strut around like he "cares" when he actually doesn't. Because that would involve an admission that he is the problem. He should be getting slammed for his behavior around Jones and the contract right now. But his BS works on many of you, so much so that some of you won't even admit how bad Jones is. Or debating Mara's involvement. These are the wrong things to debate and as long as you keep giving this man any cover he will take it.
5. John Mara responds to 1 thing. Barbarians at the gate, the kind that buy less of his stuff and write angry letters and put the blame on him where it deserves to be.
6. Things like our Head Coach and D Coordinator bickering is a sign of poor leadership at the top. Good leaders don't stand for that kind of shit, only losers.
7. Saying he is the owner and we can't change it is dumb victim shit. We all know we can't fire him, talk about a strawman. We can and should make the clownshow uncomfortable, unless you enjoy this. Some of you do, or at least tolerate it. WAKE UP.
2. Any attempts by the team or fans to pretend Mara doesn't have personnel influence reeks of insecurity. You don't litter your family in personnel to be "hands off." You attempt to cover this up because the real issue is the quality of that influence. And the more you have to own having influence the last 10 years the more you have to own just how bad you've been. A lot of fans do this because to face it is to face just how fucked we are tied to this small, small, garbage can kicking man.
3. GTFO with John-boy distancing himself and blaming JS for Jones contract. You are going to say we did everything to screw this kid up? Blame the other players on your team? Declare the guy the starter when your new coach and GM start after he's been horrible and then pretend like you aren't involved in him getting GROSSLY overpaid. You are being intellectually dishonest or willfully ignorant to not see that connection.
4. You Pollyanna's probably think you are harmless but the only thing we know about our thin-skinned born on third base loser of an owner is that if he can get away with giving away a medium Pepsi that is what he will do. All he wants is to say whatever he wants to say even if it hurts his negotiating leverage and strut around like he "cares" when he actually doesn't. Because that would involve an admission that he is the problem. He should be getting slammed for his behavior around Jones and the contract right now. But his BS works on many of you, so much so that some of you won't even admit how bad Jones is. Or debating Mara's involvement. These are the wrong things to debate and as long as you keep giving this man any cover he will take it.
5. John Mara responds to 1 thing. Barbarians at the gate, the kind that buy less of his stuff and write angry letters and put the blame on him where it deserves to be.
6. Things like our Head Coach and D Coordinator bickering is a sign of poor leadership at the top. Good leaders don't stand for that kind of shit, only losers.
7. Saying he is the owner and we can't change it is dumb victim shit. We all know we can't fire him, talk about a strawman. We can and should make the clownshow uncomfortable, unless you enjoy this. Some of you do, or at least tolerate it. WAKE UP.
Here, here.
Mara is destroying my interest in the team. He thinks he's doing the right thing by being loyal, as though that's the *right* way to run a football team. It's hilarious. He's getting lapped by Eagles management. The Big Blue loyalty schtick is a crock of shit. I want to root for a team that knows how to win and will behave ruthlessly in that pursuit. I don't want to root for John Mara's family heirloom and watch his backwards approach to take a decade to find out when players aren't good enough.
He was born a prince, never accomplished anything meaningful on his own, and behaves like he has some eternal legacy to protect, but the truth is he's mucking it all up
It's been a trainwreck for the past decade. But this sport is filled with like 6 teams max who can win a Super Bowl every year. And ultimately, it comes down to having a QB.
I think a big issue is too many fans gravitate towards ground and pound football. Win games 13-10 and just have a game manager at QB. That's not how the league works anymore.
Is Belichick a moron now or does he just have shitty QB play? Blame Mara for not figuring out the QB position, but when posters go too far the other way I'm going to defend him.
It's been a trainwreck for the past decade. But this sport is filled with like 6 teams max who can win a Super Bowl every year. And ultimately, it comes down to having a QB.
I think a big issue is too many fans gravitate towards ground and pound football. Win games 13-10 and just have a game manager at QB. That's not how the league works anymore.
Is Belichick a moron now or does he just have shitty QB play? Blame Mara for not figuring out the QB position, but when posters go too far the other way I'm going to defend him.
Sean - fair enough, he won two Lombardis. I love that. But he had strong support in doing so, and they got very lucky with a unicorn QB in Eli Manning, who looked average a lot of the time, but had uncanny traits that led him to two great Super Bowl runs. Eli Mannings don't grow on trees, and you certainly aren't going to find the next one by looking for a *physical* clone.
Mara got spoiled by Eli, and I believe, he came to believe that the Eli recipe is repeatable - it can be the Big Blue template for championships. It is not. And I don't think he understands why Eli was able to do what he did. It wasn't because Eli was a tall, aww shucks, golly gee kind of polite guy to interview. And we see by his public comments and suggestions that he STILL thinks Jones is a possible franchise QB for this team. He still believes in the *Giants Way* to win a championship with Daniel Jones in the Eli role. This unmasks him as a putz who doesn't have the analytical capacity to understand what NFL teams need to do in 2023. He doesn't even know what questions to ask? He is lost. And on this trajectory, the only way we will sniff another championship in my lifetime, is luck. Because Mara leads this team with two fatal flaws - IGNORANCE and HUBRIS.
Some of you need to lay off the sauce or perhaps crack.
No he isn't a gigantic idiot who immediately screws up a business the second he takes over, few people are actually that bad.
He's just a regular never accomplished anything spoiled rich kid that can't tell the difference between his own accomplishment's and his daddy's. Or luck and skill. And if you can't even identify what works and what doesn't and even worse assume any failures are bad luck and successes are deserved and will keep coming (Hello last year!)
You fail at your first and most important job as a leader understanding your strengths and weaknesses and being more of an asset than a liability around those understandings.
The 7 things I said about are hard truths, accept them or don't at our own peril.
Some of you need to lay off the sauce or perhaps crack.
Yeah I hear you, you and some other here score big in the idiocy department. Maybe you should talk less and learn to think better.
Just for "cackles" what of my 7 points were wrong? Be specific.
It's been a trainwreck for the past decade. But this sport is filled with like 6 teams max who can win a Super Bowl every year. And ultimately, it comes down to having a QB.
I think a big issue is too many fans gravitate towards ground and pound football. Win games 13-10 and just have a game manager at QB. That's not how the league works anymore.
Is Belichick a moron now or does he just have shitty QB play? Blame Mara for not figuring out the QB position, but when posters go too far the other way I'm going to defend him.
That is one of the features of the internet. Destroy people using the keyboard without the fear of consequences.
I agree. The biggest problem is the handling of QB. And I think it's due to how Eli's career played out here.
Mara got a big pay off with being patient with Coughlin and Manning and he's used that as a guide with Jones imo.
He plays favorites, and is more patient with his people. He is also incredibly disloyal to Giants members who are not part of his circle.
2. Any attempts by the team or fans to pretend Mara doesn't have personnel influence reeks of insecurity. You don't litter your family in personnel to be "hands off." You attempt to cover this up because the real issue is the quality of that influence. And the more you have to own having influence the last 10 years the more you have to own just how bad you've been. A lot of fans do this because to face it is to face just how fucked we are tied to this small, small, garbage can kicking man.
3. GTFO with John-boy distancing himself and blaming JS for Jones contract. You are going to say we did everything to screw this kid up? Blame the other players on your team? Declare the guy the starter when your new coach and GM start after he's been horrible and then pretend like you aren't involved in him getting GROSSLY overpaid. You are being intellectually dishonest or willfully ignorant to not see that connection.
4. You Pollyanna's probably think you are harmless but the only thing we know about our thin-skinned born on third base loser of an owner is that if he can get away with giving away a medium Pepsi that is what he will do. All he wants is to say whatever he wants to say even if it hurts his negotiating leverage and strut around like he "cares" when he actually doesn't. Because that would involve an admission that he is the problem. He should be getting slammed for his behavior around Jones and the contract right now. But his BS works on many of you, so much so that some of you won't even admit how bad Jones is. Or debating Mara's involvement. These are the wrong things to debate and as long as you keep giving this man any cover he will take it.
5. John Mara responds to 1 thing. Barbarians at the gate, the kind that buy less of his stuff and write angry letters and put the blame on him where it deserves to be.
6. Things like our Head Coach and D Coordinator bickering is a sign of poor leadership at the top. Good leaders don't stand for that kind of shit, only losers.
7. Saying he is the owner and we can't change it is dumb victim shit. We all know we can't fire him, talk about a strawman. We can and should make the clownshow uncomfortable, unless you enjoy this. Some of you do, or at least tolerate it. WAKE UP.
Your premise that fans can make Mara change seems to ignore something. John Mara wants to win, he s made bad decisions, don’t see how fan Barbarism is going to help him make better decisions. It might bring about change, McAdoo, Shumur, Judge, Daboll……..How s that working out so far.
Bickering among coaches sign of poor leadership?.. How d that Parcells Belichick thing work out.
Some of your conclusions are not consistent with what I have observed spending a life time around athletes. It s an emotional activity, things happen, and you move on.
I think Mara (like most people) might have a tendency to hear the opinions he agrees with as the loudest voice even if they're not. And that's without even pausing to consider whether "loudest" equals "most" anymore.
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I've got an issue when people call Mara a loser, prince or someone born on third base. He's got two Lombardi trophies in the case while HE was owner. It's bullshit to just dismiss that.
It's been a trainwreck for the past decade. But this sport is filled with like 6 teams max who can win a Super Bowl every year. And ultimately, it comes down to having a QB.
I think a big issue is too many fans gravitate towards ground and pound football. Win games 13-10 and just have a game manager at QB. That's not how the league works anymore.
Is Belichick a moron now or does he just have shitty QB play? Blame Mara for not figuring out the QB position, but when posters go too far the other way I'm going to defend him.
That is one of the features of the internet. Destroy people using the keyboard without the fear of consequences.
One of the other features is the presence of people willing to white knight for those who won the genetic lottery and have never known anything but power and influence.
What I do have a problem with is fans blasting GMs and coaches and the FO firing Giants decision makers for essentially carrying out what might be ownerships wishes. I've also got a problem with fans laying this all at the feet of past/current GMs and coaches when they are not the entire problem.
If things are going to change, Mara and his potential mouthpieces need to take a break or remove themselves entirely from the football operations side of things.
They are the only remaining constants in this seemingly endless cycle of underperformance.
I'm just callin it like I see it.
It is absolutely Mara's job to run his business in a manner which takes good advantage of managing the fan base. This does NOT mean he lets the fans run the team. Merely that he needs to consider overall fan base management.
In this mode, re signing Jones made sense. Even if they didn't think he was the answer, he was supposed to be good enough enable a middle of the road team. A second straight season of being relevant would have us all singing a different tune. The worst of both worlds happened: Jones didn't step up to the plate, AND we returned to being laughing stock. In hind sight, not bringing back Jones and accepting a shitty year would be best for the long term health of the business, but the goal was to have a second OK year, which fans would be giddy over after so many years of shit. Once the Giants are marginally competitive, and the fan base won't be happy with mediocrity (and let's face it, most of us were thrilled with last year's mediocrity), they can look to replace Jones. Options for replacing Jones last year were slim.
You are correct it doesnt guarantee success or that you are good at your job..
But you have to at least put in the work...
When you have the power of your family name behind you, doors open for you without having to necessarily earn anything.
Let's take Tim McDonnell, for example. Wellington's grandson, his first job upon graduating from college was at Notre Dame, where he was hired by Charlie Weis. Weis, as I'm sure you recall, was an assistant coach for the Giants from 1990-1992. Gee, wonder how he got that job. He remained at Notre Dame until 2013, when he was hired by ... the Giants!
Quite a resume.
It's fine that Mara has influence, they won Super Bowls with that family having influence. What's not fine is Mara's reluctance to admit mistakes and double down on losing strategies. It also seems that he's somewhat reluctant to adapt to the modern NFL in both field play and contracts.
I would be pleasantly surprised if that family admitted the Jones mistake and moved on. I would be pleasantly surprised if Barkley wasn't signed to a significant second contract. My guess is unless Arch is staring them in the face in two years and Barkley is relatively healthy, both are playing significant roles for the Giants three years from now.
Running the business end of a football team is something the Mara family has done for a long time and is good at. Wellington's father taught him, and he taught John. All three have a substantial legacy when it comes to the business of the league and the growth of the sport.
What the Mara family has never been, are football experts. Wellington grew up watching the game and being around the team, but hsi drafting and roster management were almost exclusively awful until George Young came along. The team needed a football guy, not a guy who was always around football.
Mara should be smart enough to realize his expertise lies in the running of the league and team, not so much in the on-field product. Those decisions need to be made by football guys hired to make those decisions, free of influence from someone who sees the game and team like a fan.
Running the business end of a football team is something the Mara family has done for a long time and is good at. Wellington's father taught him, and he taught John. All three have a substantial legacy when it comes to the business of the league and the growth of the sport.
What the Mara family has never been, are football experts. Wellington grew up watching the game and being around the team, but hsi drafting and roster management were almost exclusively awful until George Young came along. The team needed a football guy, not a guy who was always around football.
Mara should be smart enough to realize his expertise lies in the running of the league and team, not so much in the on-field product. Those decisions need to be made by football guys hired to make those decisions, free of influence from someone who sees the game and team like a fan.
And the issue is we never know who's making the decisions then. There are Mara's on the football side. What seems to happen though is the bad decisions end up falling on ownership where the good decisions fall to the GM (Schoen).
The Leonard Williams trade is an example. Would every owner sign off on eating the cost and essentially buying a 2nd round pick? I doubt it.
So, there is always this cloud of doubt over who handles the larger issues. Utilmately, it is on Schoen to manage it.
If nothing comes from this current regime, it would have to be time to just give someone like Harbaugh the keys to run the entire franchise. Or like what Denver has done with Sean Payton. I like Schoen & Daboll, but they have no track record of success.
Are we believing that with one of the biggest decisions that the franchise had to make with Jones that he was sitting out for that decision?
I diverge on the Jones situation. While I'm sure Mara was/is ecstatic that Jones had a good enough year in 2022 to get rewarded so handsomely, the decision to decline the 5th year option points to Schoen owning the Jones decisions.
Because that decision came on the heels of the infamous quote from Mara during the press conference introducing Schoen.: "We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up."
Despite being within five feet away when Mara said that, Schoen still declined the 5th year option two and a half months later. How can anyone think Mara was behind that?
There is no one on this board who has spent as much time as me crushing Mara before Schoen arrived. Nobody. So, I can't be mistaken as some Mara apologist.
People need to wake up a little bit and get the spotlight more on Schoen. He's possibly a bigger problem than many think...
Thanks Jon, I'd actually appreciate it if you shot me an email.
markrodgers1981@gmail.com
I'd say those are more of the wrong questions.
1) Mara has had horrible results and rarely if ever takes any responsibility for bad things occurring and frequently assigns it to people below him. Sometimes selectively and clearly to his favorites. This is horrible leadership and rarely gets good results in any industry.
2) Mara says overly sentimental things too often in public and the team displays sentimental behavior which as the league evolves seems to hurt them more and more.
3) For over a decade the team Mara has lead has been one of the worst if not the worst in the NFL overall.
Even if you reject 1 and 2 which you shouldn't, 3 is the trump card and the only important question. Why should it really matter exactly HOW bad each of these GMs are if they perform poorly under the same leadership team?
How many poor choices by the GM was enforced by Mara? How often are these occurrences?
I think it is important to know who is responsible for the successes and the failures of the team. I can say Mara is not involved and is not responsible but I don't know that any more than you know that is Mara is responsible for.
I think assigning blame when we don't know who is to blame leads to faulty analysis.
If Mara is the driving force behind the many mistake that has set this team back while not being responsible for any of the good then that is obviously a very bad situation.
If Mara is not the driving force behind these mistakes then we have mistakes that were poor choices by GM's and Coaches. Of course a mixture is possible as well.
Would you say that you are assigning blame to Mara for the many mistakes that have lead to the current state of the franchise?
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And that's okay to an extent. How many owners in any business are completely hands off? If you believe Schoen had full autonomy in the Jones decision, I am not sure what to tell you. If you believe the hiring of DG wasn't in part at least influenced by his belief that Manning had years left (a view that aligned very clearly with Mara), I don't know what to tell you.
I diverge on the Jones situation. While I'm sure Mara was/is ecstatic that Jones had a good enough year in 2022 to get rewarded so handsomely, the decision to decline the 5th year option points to Schoen owning the Jones decisions.
Because that decision came on the heels of the infamous quote from Mara during the press conference introducing Schoen.: "We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up."
Despite being within five feet away when Mara said that, Schoen still declined the 5th year option two and a half months later. How can anyone think Mara was behind that?
There is no one on this board who has spent as much time as me crushing Mara before Schoen arrived. Nobody. So, I can't be mistaken as some Mara apologist.
People need to wake up a little bit and get the spotlight more on Schoen. He's possibly a bigger problem than many think...
I mostly agree but I can't get too worked up over this with Schoen because there's an occam's razor element to this:
-Schoen/Daboll have a surprisingly successful first season in which Jones plays like a top 15 QB. THey are out of the running for Stroud/Young and FA QBs Carr and Geno don't represent clear upgrades based on Jones 2022 performance.
-They commit to Jones on a deal with a modest out after the 2024 season. They overpaid, they are probably aware that they overpaid, but - and this is the only part where Mara's influence and traditional Giants naivete comes in - a few extra million to make all parties involved satisfied isn't the worst thing in the world in their minds.
-They look to build on Jones' 2022 success. They probably convince themselves: We made a guy with good physical tools into a top 15 QB, who's to say we can't raise his ceiling?
-Unfortunately, they get way too cute in building and coaching the OL, and on top of that, Jones looks completely out to lunch in the opening four games.
I think the last part is key; we've seen it leaked that the many people in the building were mystified by Jones' performance. I think they just didn't expect the regression. You could argue that they should've been aware that Jones was a bottom third QB by every metric before 2022, but I would be willing to bet they thought "good lord, Garrett/Judge sucked and WE can clearly mold Jones into a great player"
So it wasn't ideal decision making, and likely involved some hubris, but I get it to some extent. I only hope Schoen now realizes that 2022 was likely an exception for Jones and not a path forward.