of Japanese tourists? Was it laughing, not reading the solemn mood of most other visitors, something else?
As a couple here, I wondered if US citizens visiting Hiroshima and Nagasaki are much different.
Stunning how the self-loathing seeps through even in a couple of posts here.
We didn't start the war. But we finished it.
Perhaps you'd be happier if the Axis had won?
Where's self loathing? I didn't defend or condone the behavior. I recall a few years back there was a commemoration at one of both of the Japanese sites and the question came up whether or not US tourists should visit. I haven't seen, via media outlets, the same question posed toward Japanese visitors at the Arizona. So, yes, I am curious if, in reality and in general, there is a marked similarity or difference in the 2 situations.
For those who have visited all sites, was there any one more somber than the others in terms of Normandy, Pearl Harbor, and Auschwitz (or another large camp)?
Been to Pearl and Normandy. Not the camps.
If there is anything more powerful than taps at the Normandy American Cemetery, I haven’t experienced it in my lifetime.
Bill, how did you do Normandy? I'm beginning to plan for a trip in 2025
We had a travel agency that set us up with a guide for Normandy. All day trip. He drove. The beaches, the cemetery, Point du Hoc. Great guide and had personally met many of the vets who had returned over the years. There is more to see than one days worth if you are going to see the numerous museums and other beaches so there is that decision as well. Felt our day, focused on Normandy, was great.
been to Buchenwald, both the camp and the nearby quarry. Everyone was completely respectful.
Did those visits elicit the same type of emotion? I have not been myself and for many years said I would never. But, I've spoken to many people who have, including my wife, and almost unanimously they say not just how somber it is, but it is a "loud" silence. They describe feeling the souls and what happened, the way you and others have described the Arizona and Normandy.
I have yet to be to any of the 3, but would like to.
for those who have been to both, how does the Arizona memorial compare to that of 9/11 in NYC in terms the overall feeling and mood?
I haven't gotten there since the new memorial was erected, but was there around 2003ish, when there were still fences up and a makeshift LE memorial set up.
It was very surreal...There was a homeless man standing near the site telling the events of the day. Nearby, there was someone playing the song Amazing Grace. Between his telling of events, the sights and sounds, the song and seeing everything...I was very overwhelmed at the time.
RE: RE: The picture on the Bing homepage today is about the best I've seen
Was wondering if anyone would do it.
I shall never forget that day even though it was before my time.
It is ingrained in my mind as are a few other historical dates..
for those who have been to both, how does the Arizona memorial compare to that of 9/11 in NYC in terms the overall feeling and mood?
I haven't gotten there since the new memorial was erected, but was there around 2003ish, when there were still fences up and a makeshift LE memorial set up.
It was very surreal...There was a homeless man standing near the site telling the events of the day. Nearby, there was someone playing the song Amazing Grace. Between his telling of events, the sights and sounds, the song and seeing everything...I was very overwhelmed at the time.
I have not been to the memorial for 9/11. I worked down there when it happened and for a time after. I did not appreciate the fenced in site being treated as a tourist attraction at the time. I'm not sure how I would react now.
I had a recurring dream for years or the second plane flying into the tower on a loop, as I witnessed that from my car on the FDR drive heading to work. It is a day forever imprinted on my mind and memories.
With the combination of everything we know and the current technology1
in Normandy and the memorial cemetery overlooking the beaches. The souls who gave there life for this country are still with us.
I'll be doing Normandy in May. Covid shot down my first planned trip there a few years ago.
For all the shit we give the French, they keep that place immaculate. I saw groundskeepers on their knees, hand trimming around the headstones with clippers. IIRC, it is a volunteer grounds crew.
in 1969 waiting on my next ship to return from a WestPac cruise. While there, TORA, TORA, TORA was being filmed. What an eerie feeling to see a life size reproduction representing the back half of the Arizona (which also doubled for the Nevada). B-17's flying, Zeros, Kates, and Vals....all reconfigured AT-6 and BT-17 trainers. I was able to get a little bit on Super 8 film. It was an amazing experience.
Threads like this and discussion and remembrance in general
are so important, as the number of veterans still alive is rapidly dwindling. The same is true for the Holocaust. Most survivors at this point were children when in camps. It is important to honor and learn from those who lived these extraordinary times.
Matt M... there is a difference between the concentration camps and the death camps. Jews, political prisoners, Russians, gypsies, etc. were murdered at both, but scale in the death camps in East was at an industrial scale. I believe Buchenwald was the first concentration camp, with the first inmates being political prisoners but later expanding to all groups.
The barracks are gone (the foundations are still there). I assume the wooden structures were burned down to prevent disease. The crematorium and medical research rooms are still there, along with the wire, gate, auxiliary structures. There are also things such as the tall wooden poles where people were hanged from their arms.
The most emotional I got were with the crematorium, medical rooms, wooden poles, and the quarry. Why the quarry? If you've ever seen pictures of the quarry from the period, you know. (BTW, if you ever saw the old 70's mini-series Holocaust (Meryl Streep, James Woods), Buchenwald is portrayed as well as the quarry.
Interesting side note, I went right after East Germany collapsed, so there were a disproportionate number of memorials dedicated to Communist inmates.
********
Regarding my comment above about the self-loathing. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the two posts, but it bugs me when I see those equating the Germans and Japanese conduct with Americans in the war. If that is not what you were doing, I apologize. But there is no comparison. And unlike the Germans, the Japanese to this day have largely escaped the guilt of their crimes against humanity.
********
As to my experience at the Arizona with Japanese tourists... for those who don't know, 25 years of my life were spent on U.S.-Japanese relations. The reason I was at Pearl Harbor was I was in transit back from meetings in Japan and arranged for a quick stop over so I could make my first and only trip to Hawaii. Long story short, almost half my life has been spent with the Japanese people.
Their relationship with WWII is very complicated. And many Japanese to this day think we are to blame for starting that war. They also think their war crimes and crimes against humanity in Asia and against Western servicemen and civilians are a myth. People in this country have a vague understanding of what the Japanese did in China, but they really have no idea. They also don't really know about what the Japanese did in Burma, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc. They kind of know about the Baatan Death March, but they don't know the stories of the Japanese . murdering Western civilian men and women, often in gruesome manner.
So with the backdrop, the group of tourists on the Arizona memorial that day numbered about 20-25. As mentioned by many above, the Arizona is a mass gravesite where 1,100 Americans lie a few feet below the water. So anyone acting "happy" or being loud and kind of pushy is out of place. It's considered rude and inappropriate.. And especially so if you are from the country that killed those men. Imagine a bunch of Germans acting this way at Auschwitz (which is in Poland).
in 1969 waiting on my next ship to return from a WestPac cruise. While there, TORA, TORA, TORA was being filmed. What an eerie feeling to see a life size reproduction representing the back half of the Arizona (which also doubled for the Nevada). B-17's flying, Zeros, Kates, and Vals....all reconfigured AT-6 and BT-17 trainers. I was able to get a little bit on Super 8 film. It was an amazing experience.
My former boss who lived in Japan saw Tora, Tora, Tora in the movies there. The Japanese audience cheered. He was so pissed he gave a standing ovation when a Japanese plane was shot down.
Matt M... there is a difference between the concentration camps and the death camps. Jews, political prisoners, Russians, gypsies, etc. were murdered at both, but scale in the death camps in East was at an industrial scale. I believe Buchenwald was the first concentration camp, with the first inmates being political prisoners but later expanding to all groups.
The barracks are gone (the foundations are still there). I assume the wooden structures were burned down to prevent disease. The crematorium and medical research rooms are still there, along with the wire, gate, auxiliary structures. There are also things such as the tall wooden poles where people were hanged from their arms.
The most emotional I got were with the crematorium, medical rooms, wooden poles, and the quarry. Why the quarry? If you've ever seen pictures of the quarry from the period, you know. (BTW, if you ever saw the old 70's mini-series Holocaust (Meryl Streep, James Woods), Buchenwald is portrayed as well as the quarry.
Interesting side note, I went right after East Germany collapsed, so there were a disproportionate number of memorials dedicated to Communist inmates.
********
Regarding my comment above about the self-loathing. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the two posts, but it bugs me when I see those equating the Germans and Japanese conduct with Americans in the war. If that is not what you were doing, I apologize. But there is no comparison. And unlike the Germans, the Japanese to this day have largely escaped the guilt of their crimes against humanity.
********
As to my experience at the Arizona with Japanese tourists... for those who don't know, 25 years of my life were spent on U.S.-Japanese relations. The reason I was at Pearl Harbor was I was in transit back from meetings in Japan and arranged for a quick stop over so I could make my first and only trip to Hawaii. Long story short, almost half my life has been spent with the Japanese people.
Their relationship with WWII is very complicated. And many Japanese to this day think we are to blame for starting that war. They also think their war crimes and crimes against humanity in Asia and against Western servicemen and civilians are a myth. People in this country have a vague understanding of what the Japanese did in China, but they really have no idea. They also don't really know about what the Japanese did in Burma, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc. They kind of know about the Baatan Death March, but they don't know the stories of the Japanese . murdering Western civilian men and women, often in gruesome manner.
So with the backdrop, the group of tourists on the Arizona memorial that day numbered about 20-25. As mentioned by many above, the Arizona is a mass gravesite where 1,100 Americans lie a few feet below the water. So anyone acting "happy" or being loud and kind of pushy is out of place. It's considered rude and inappropriate.. And especially so if you are from the country that killed those men. Imagine a bunch of Germans acting this way at Auschwitz (which is in Poland).
Thank you for your response. First, I was 100% not equating American conduct during the war with that of German or Japanese military. I was legitimately asking because, as I said in another post, I recall a commemorative ceremony I think for the 75 anniversary of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I read an article where the Japanese were asking for American tourists to stay away. I had never seen such a request and certainly never saw anything like that about the Arizona. To your point, the article was written from more of a self-loathing perspective, basically agreeing with the Japanese request.
I agree with you 100% about the Arizona Memorial and certainly appreciate your unique perspective. I did not know you made a career of US-Japanese relations. It's interesting that their younger generation is so unaware of that dark part of their history. But, also not surprising, when, as you point out, Japan has been largely ignored as to it's war crimes and crimes against humanity. I still have very mixed feelings about Germany. But, at least on the surface it does appear they have gone to great lengths to educate their youth and own what they did. They outwardly portray a general feeling of remorse and empathy. I just can't bring myself to trust it.
Lastly, thank you for your experience at Buchenwald. I do recognize and appreciate the difference between the types of camps. Most people I have spoken to or read about have visited Auschwitz. My wife said she could feel what happened there well before even crossing through the gates. It was chilling.
Matt M... there is a difference between the concentration camps and the death camps. Jews, political prisoners, Russians, gypsies, etc. were murdered at both, but scale in the death camps in East was at an industrial scale. I believe Buchenwald was the first concentration camp, with the first inmates being political prisoners but later expanding to all groups.
The barracks are gone (the foundations are still there). I assume the wooden structures were burned down to prevent disease. The crematorium and medical research rooms are still there, along with the wire, gate, auxiliary structures. There are also things such as the tall wooden poles where people were hanged from their arms.
The most emotional I got were with the crematorium, medical rooms, wooden poles, and the quarry. Why the quarry? If you've ever seen pictures of the quarry from the period, you know. (BTW, if you ever saw the old 70's mini-series Holocaust (Meryl Streep, James Woods), Buchenwald is portrayed as well as the quarry.
Interesting side note, I went right after East Germany collapsed, so there were a disproportionate number of memorials dedicated to Communist inmates.
********
Regarding my comment above about the self-loathing. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the two posts, but it bugs me when I see those equating the Germans and Japanese conduct with Americans in the war. If that is not what you were doing, I apologize. But there is no comparison. And unlike the Germans, the Japanese to this day have largely escaped the guilt of their crimes against humanity.
********
As to my experience at the Arizona with Japanese tourists... for those who don't know, 25 years of my life were spent on U.S.-Japanese relations. The reason I was at Pearl Harbor was I was in transit back from meetings in Japan and arranged for a quick stop over so I could make my first and only trip to Hawaii. Long story short, almost half my life has been spent with the Japanese people.
Their relationship with WWII is very complicated. And many Japanese to this day think we are to blame for starting that war. They also think their war crimes and crimes against humanity in Asia and against Western servicemen and civilians are a myth. People in this country have a vague understanding of what the Japanese did in China, but they really have no idea. They also don't really know about what the Japanese did in Burma, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc. They kind of know about the Baatan Death March, but they don't know the stories of the Japanese . murdering Western civilian men and women, often in gruesome manner.
So with the backdrop, the group of tourists on the Arizona memorial that day numbered about 20-25. As mentioned by many above, the Arizona is a mass gravesite where 1,100 Americans lie a few feet below the water. So anyone acting "happy" or being loud and kind of pushy is out of place. It's considered rude and inappropriate.. And especially so if you are from the country that killed those men. Imagine a bunch of Germans acting this way at Auschwitz (which is in Poland).
Thank you for your response. First, I was 100% not equating American conduct during the war with that of German or Japanese military. I was legitimately asking because, as I said in another post, I recall a commemorative ceremony I think for the 75 anniversary of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I read an article where the Japanese were asking for American tourists to stay away. I had never seen such a request and certainly never saw anything like that about the Arizona. To your point, the article was written from more of a self-loathing perspective, basically agreeing with the Japanese request.
I agree with you 100% about the Arizona Memorial and certainly appreciate your unique perspective. I did not know you made a career of US-Japanese relations. It's interesting that their younger generation is so unaware of that dark part of their history. But, also not surprising, when, as you point out, Japan has been largely ignored as to it's war crimes and crimes against humanity. I still have very mixed feelings about Germany. But, at least on the surface it does appear they have gone to great lengths to educate their youth and own what they did. They outwardly portray a general feeling of remorse and empathy. I just can't bring myself to trust it.
Lastly, thank you for your experience at Buchenwald. I do recognize and appreciate the difference between the types of camps. Most people I have spoken to or read about have visited Auschwitz. My wife said she could feel what happened there well before even crossing through the gates. It was chilling.
Eric - one last thing - I was genuinely asking out of curiosity. I was wondering if, in your opinion (and now especially with your lifelong perspective), the Japanese tourists simply didn't understand the gravity and meaning of the site or if they were intentionally disrespectful out of nationalistic pride.
Personally, I would cringe at the former at any number of sites. AS I said, I never could bring myself to visit the 9/11 Memorial because of how I felt watching it become a ridiculous tourist destination while it was an active recovery and removal site. And this was primarily American tourists. So, I can imagine how you felt. It is not a place for kids to be running around or playing and not a site for anyone to be anything less than respectful.
I can't tell you what lies in the hearts and minds of other men and women. I can speculate, and speculate based on personal experience, but it's still just speculation.
The Tora, Tora, Tora reference above, as well as how the Japanese conduct their current diplomacy with their Asian neighbors are clues.
But more than that, it would be very odd for a people to consider the actions of their forefathers as completely evil. The Germans did it because we and the Soviets basically made them do it. So whether they would say it publicly or not, many Japanese probably look at Pearl Harbor with a great deal of pride. It was an incredible victory for them. They put the entire American battleship fleet out of action in one engagement (at the time, battleships were still considered the masters of the ocean, not aircraft carriers).
Want another clue? The Japanese recently launched their first aircraft carrier since WWII. You know what they called it? The Akagi. The Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo's Pearl Harbor strike force. (It was sunk at Midway).
I can't tell you what lies in the hearts and minds of other men and women. I can speculate, and speculate based on personal experience, but it's still just speculation.
The Tora, Tora, Tora reference above, as well as how the Japanese conduct their current diplomacy with their Asian neighbors are clues.
But more than that, it would be very odd for a people to consider the actions of their forefathers as completely evil. The Germans did it because we and the Soviets basically made them do it. So whether they would say it publicly or not, many Japanese probably look at Pearl Harbor with a great deal of pride. It was an incredible victory for them. They put the entire American battleship fleet out of action in one engagement (at the time, battleships were still considered the masters of the ocean, not aircraft carriers).
Want another clue? The Japanese recently launched their first aircraft carrier since WWII. You know what they called it? The Akagi. The Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo's Pearl Harbor strike force. (It was sunk at Midway).
Thank you for all this. I agree with you about Germany, which is why I say I have never fully trusted the public image being portrayed. Given your experience, you are probably more uniquely qualified to comment on this topic than anyone else here. I appreciate the input.
I can't tell you what lies in the hearts and minds of other men and women. I can speculate, and speculate based on personal experience, but it's still just speculation.
The Tora, Tora, Tora reference above, as well as how the Japanese conduct their current diplomacy with their Asian neighbors are clues.
But more than that, it would be very odd for a people to consider the actions of their forefathers as completely evil. The Germans did it because we and the Soviets basically made them do it. So whether they would say it publicly or not, many Japanese probably look at Pearl Harbor with a great deal of pride. It was an incredible victory for them. They put the entire American battleship fleet out of action in one engagement (at the time, battleships were still considered the masters of the ocean, not aircraft carriers).
Want another clue? The Japanese recently launched their first aircraft carrier since WWII. You know what they called it? The Akagi. The Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo's Pearl Harbor strike force. (It was sunk at Midway).
Maybe we should keep an eye on the Akagi this time.
I can't tell you what lies in the hearts and minds of other men and women. I can speculate, and speculate based on personal experience, but it's still just speculation.
The Tora, Tora, Tora reference above, as well as how the Japanese conduct their current diplomacy with their Asian neighbors are clues.
But more than that, it would be very odd for a people to consider the actions of their forefathers as completely evil. The Germans did it because we and the Soviets basically made them do it. So whether they would say it publicly or not, many Japanese probably look at Pearl Harbor with a great deal of pride. It was an incredible victory for them. They put the entire American battleship fleet out of action in one engagement (at the time, battleships were still considered the masters of the ocean, not aircraft carriers).
Want another clue? The Japanese recently launched their first aircraft carrier since WWII. You know what they called it? The Akagi. The Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo's Pearl Harbor strike force. (It was sunk at Midway).
Thank you for all this. I agree with you about Germany, which is why I say I have never fully trusted the public image being portrayed. Given your experience, you are probably more uniquely qualified to comment on this topic than anyone else here. I appreciate the input.
Slightly off topic, but I spent a lot of time in Korea, 3 years. In general, to this day the older generations still hate/dislike Japan for all that occurred during their occupation.
In terms of the memorial, it sounds like we should be listening to JOrthman since he's been there multiple times and has seen what I saw on other occasions.
Again, no one was dancing a jig.
But I think most of us know how you are supposed to act at a gravesite.
For example, you go to DC, the way you act at Arlington should be different than how you act at the Smithsonian. That's the best analogy I can give. You speak with more hushed tones. You're more aware of the way you move around. You certainly don't go nuts trying to take group photos.
There is no love lost between the Japanese and Koreans on both sides.
On my first trip to Japan, I casually mentioned to a Japanese national working at our Osaka consulate that I saw my first Japanese homeless person.. Her response was, "Not Japanese, he must have been Korean." (And this was a 20-something woman working for us).
And the Comfort Women issue is still huge in Korea. Japanese don't even like it mentioned.
Long story short, Americans don't really understand how most of the world is far, far, far, far more racist than any community in the United States. Ask Poles what they think about Germans. Or Serbs was they think about Bosnians. Or Greeks what they think about Turks. Even places that share the same race/language... the Dominicans think Haitians are scum.
They think they are infinitely superior to Americans. They really look down on us.
On the flip side, they are encumbered with so much guilt that they barely can function at times as a sovereign people and make idiotic societal choices because of it.
But they still have elements of their darker past too. They may not try to subjugate their neighbors with armies, but they do with euros. Ask the Greeks or Italians.
Want another clue? The Japanese recently launched their first aircraft carrier since WWII. You know what they called it? The Akagi. The Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo's Pearl Harbor strike force. (It was sunk at Midway).
You’re referring to the JS Kaga, a helicopter carrier being converted to also carry the F-35. Kaga was also the name of one of the carriers at Pearl and was also sunk at Midway. The JS Kaga is actually the second carrier Japan is converting, the first being the JS Izumo. Both are named for cities in Japan.
...which begins with "Sir, do you remember Pear Harbor?"
For those who haven't listened to it already, it covers his reaction to Pearl Harbor, his boot camp, the Battle of Saipan, the Indianapolis's arrival at Tinian, and loading of the bomb onto the Enola Gay. The sound isn't great, but it improves after the first minute or so. And you also get the benefit of a thick but authentic NYC accent - ( New Window )
Want another clue? The Japanese recently launched their first aircraft carrier since WWII. You know what they called it? The Akagi. The Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo's Pearl Harbor strike force. (It was sunk at Midway).
You’re referring to the JS Kaga, a helicopter carrier being converted to also carry the F-35. Kaga was also the name of one of the carriers at Pearl and was also sunk at Midway. The JS Kaga is actually the second carrier Japan is converting, the first being the JS Izumo. Both are named for cities in Japan.
Was wondering if anyone would do it.
I shall never forget that day even though it was before my time.
It is ingrained in my mind as are a few other historical dates..
it didn't get the traction of "Band of Brothers" for a number of reasons (much darker material, based on a couple of books rather than one, too many characters in different units). But "The Pacific" is well done. I found re-watching it a second time made a difference.
It’s funny, but Mom and I were on phone earlier talking about this anniversary. Her folks-my grandparents-left Portland, ME the Sunday of 12/7/41 to move down to Union, NJ. She was wondering how they learned of Pearl Harbor. I assumed via car radio, but she countered that a lot of cars back then didn’t have radio. We just assumed they found out stopping for gas or something.
Pretty wild when compared to JFK, Challenger, 9/11 where media was much more prevalent.
During WW2 and had to work with the government regarding mandatory black-outs. He was so incensed over December 7th that he had a special indicia on his business envelopes: “Remember Pearl Harbor.” He never had it removed and was still using it 40 years after the attack. Needless to say he was more than a little pissed when I bought my first car: a Toyota.
It's a very somber and ironically peaceful location.
The day I went there was a bunch of Japanese tourists there. You could cut the tension with a knife.
I was lucky enough to live there a few times and went there so much at one point I could have probably given a tour. A lot of the times I went there was a large group of Japanese tourists. On more than one occasions the group was borderline disrespectful.
It's not the Japanese tourists that misbehave.
It's the Chinese.
I know this because I have been there three times and all three times I notice that oriental people acting inappropriately.
The last time I spoke to a park ranger and he informed me that the Japanese visitors always acted solemnly but the Chinese visitors have to be constantly reminded that visitors are expected to act in a subdued manner.
Matt M... there is a difference between the concentration camps and the death camps. Jews, political prisoners, Russians, gypsies, etc. were murdered at both, but scale in the death camps in East was at an industrial scale. I believe Buchenwald was the first concentration camp, with the first inmates being political prisoners but later expanding to all groups.
Ironically, I am posting from Hanoi, Vietnam and I can say unequivocally, that the Vietnamese people are among the kindest and most humble people I have interacted with when traveling....If they harbor resentments against Americans, they don't show it.
We are headed to Japan, including Hiroshima, in a couple of weeks and going to the Peace Memorial Museum. I plan, of course, to be there to pay my respects and will try to be a fly on the wall (as best an American can) to see how others around me act.
Regarding Normandy, we visited Omaha Beach including the cemetary a few years back and everyone was quiet, reverent, and respectful.
I was in awe of the history, and heroic deeds that took place where I was standing. My father fought in WWII (he's buried at Arlington), was in the N. African and Italy campaigns, but knew men who survived D-Day...quite a place.
I'd love to get to Pearl Harbor some day to pay my respects.
The world's a funny place...yesterday's enemy's are today's allies .
RE: RE: RE: RE: If you ever get a chance to visit, go
It's a very somber and ironically peaceful location.
The day I went there was a bunch of Japanese tourists there. You could cut the tension with a knife.
I was lucky enough to live there a few times and went there so much at one point I could have probably given a tour. A lot of the times I went there was a large group of Japanese tourists. On more than one occasions the group was borderline disrespectful.
It's not the Japanese tourists that misbehave.
It's the Chinese.
I know this because I have been there three times and all three times I notice that oriental people acting inappropriately.
The last time I spoke to a park ranger and he informed me that the Japanese visitors always acted solemnly but the Chinese visitors have to be constantly reminded that visitors are expected to act in a subdued manner.
Not to argue with an anonymous park ranger, but I know what happened when I was there.
horrific atrocities that he was witness to, perpetrated by the Japanese throughout the Pacific theater. He spent 3 1/2 years overseas in combat zones including Guadacanal, Leyte, Saipan, New Guinea, and New Britain. The Japanese conducted war without regard to human life and were guilty of some absolutely barbaric savagery visited upon military and civilians alike. The stories would absolutely stun you. I learned most of this after his death. He recounted his experiences to my cousin, who he confided in as a fellow combat veteran. The horror stories of Japanese savagery are not myth
RE: Is this really the thread we need to have this food fight on?
That's mainly the reason why I went to this thread. On BBI if there are 90+ posts on a thread, there's a very good chance there's an argument taking place.
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of Japanese tourists? Was it laughing, not reading the solemn mood of most other visitors, something else?
As a couple here, I wondered if US citizens visiting Hiroshima and Nagasaki are much different.
Stunning how the self-loathing seeps through even in a couple of posts here.
We didn't start the war. But we finished it.
Perhaps you'd be happier if the Axis had won?
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In comment 16315743 Matt M. said:
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For those who have visited all sites, was there any one more somber than the others in terms of Normandy, Pearl Harbor, and Auschwitz (or another large camp)?
Been to Pearl and Normandy. Not the camps.
If there is anything more powerful than taps at the Normandy American Cemetery, I haven’t experienced it in my lifetime.
Bill, how did you do Normandy? I'm beginning to plan for a trip in 2025
We had a travel agency that set us up with a guide for Normandy. All day trip. He drove. The beaches, the cemetery, Point du Hoc. Great guide and had personally met many of the vets who had returned over the years. There is more to see than one days worth if you are going to see the numerous museums and other beaches so there is that decision as well. Felt our day, focused on Normandy, was great.
I have yet to be to any of the 3, but would like to.
I haven't gotten there since the new memorial was erected, but was there around 2003ish, when there were still fences up and a makeshift LE memorial set up.
It was very surreal...There was a homeless man standing near the site telling the events of the day. Nearby, there was someone playing the song Amazing Grace. Between his telling of events, the sights and sounds, the song and seeing everything...I was very overwhelmed at the time.
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It is so crisp and captures the full ship under the surface.
You can see the fuel leaking in that picture too.
I shall never forget that day even though it was before my time.
It is ingrained in my mind as are a few other historical dates..
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for those who have been to both, how does the Arizona memorial compare to that of 9/11 in NYC in terms the overall feeling and mood?
I haven't gotten there since the new memorial was erected, but was there around 2003ish, when there were still fences up and a makeshift LE memorial set up.
It was very surreal...There was a homeless man standing near the site telling the events of the day. Nearby, there was someone playing the song Amazing Grace. Between his telling of events, the sights and sounds, the song and seeing everything...I was very overwhelmed at the time.
I had a recurring dream for years or the second plane flying into the tower on a loop, as I witnessed that from my car on the FDR drive heading to work. It is a day forever imprinted on my mind and memories.
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It's a very somber and ironically peaceful location.
The day I went there was a bunch of Japanese tourists there. You could cut the tension with a knife.
Still trying to figure out why you felt tension......
Indeed, this should be solemn thread honoring those who died on this day 82 years ago, nothing else
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In comment 16315673 Dave on the UWS said:
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in Normandy and the memorial cemetery overlooking the beaches. The souls who gave there life for this country are still with us.
I'll be doing Normandy in May. Covid shot down my first planned trip there a few years ago.
For all the shit we give the French, they keep that place immaculate. I saw groundskeepers on their knees, hand trimming around the headstones with clippers. IIRC, it is a volunteer grounds crew.
We have to hand it to them on mayonnaise…. - ( New Window )
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In comment 16315738 Matt M. said:
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It is so crisp and captures the full ship under the surface.
You can see the fuel leaking in that picture too.
Now that you point it out, I do see the oil leaking. It's unreal.
Ship held over 1 million gallons of fuel oil. With it leaking around a gallon a day, it be leaking a long time more.
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In comment 16315758 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 16315738 Matt M. said:
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It is so crisp and captures the full ship under the surface.
You can see the fuel leaking in that picture too.
Now that you point it out, I do see the oil leaking. It's unreal.
Ship held over 1 million gallons of fuel oil. With it leaking around a gallon a day, it be leaking a long time more.
I'll second that, TY Earl.
The barracks are gone (the foundations are still there). I assume the wooden structures were burned down to prevent disease. The crematorium and medical research rooms are still there, along with the wire, gate, auxiliary structures. There are also things such as the tall wooden poles where people were hanged from their arms.
The most emotional I got were with the crematorium, medical rooms, wooden poles, and the quarry. Why the quarry? If you've ever seen pictures of the quarry from the period, you know. (BTW, if you ever saw the old 70's mini-series Holocaust (Meryl Streep, James Woods), Buchenwald is portrayed as well as the quarry.
Interesting side note, I went right after East Germany collapsed, so there were a disproportionate number of memorials dedicated to Communist inmates.
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Regarding my comment above about the self-loathing. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the two posts, but it bugs me when I see those equating the Germans and Japanese conduct with Americans in the war. If that is not what you were doing, I apologize. But there is no comparison. And unlike the Germans, the Japanese to this day have largely escaped the guilt of their crimes against humanity.
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As to my experience at the Arizona with Japanese tourists... for those who don't know, 25 years of my life were spent on U.S.-Japanese relations. The reason I was at Pearl Harbor was I was in transit back from meetings in Japan and arranged for a quick stop over so I could make my first and only trip to Hawaii. Long story short, almost half my life has been spent with the Japanese people.
Their relationship with WWII is very complicated. And many Japanese to this day think we are to blame for starting that war. They also think their war crimes and crimes against humanity in Asia and against Western servicemen and civilians are a myth. People in this country have a vague understanding of what the Japanese did in China, but they really have no idea. They also don't really know about what the Japanese did in Burma, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc. They kind of know about the Baatan Death March, but they don't know the stories of the Japanese . murdering Western civilian men and women, often in gruesome manner.
So with the backdrop, the group of tourists on the Arizona memorial that day numbered about 20-25. As mentioned by many above, the Arizona is a mass gravesite where 1,100 Americans lie a few feet below the water. So anyone acting "happy" or being loud and kind of pushy is out of place. It's considered rude and inappropriate.. And especially so if you are from the country that killed those men. Imagine a bunch of Germans acting this way at Auschwitz (which is in Poland).
My former boss who lived in Japan saw Tora, Tora, Tora in the movies there. The Japanese audience cheered. He was so pissed he gave a standing ovation when a Japanese plane was shot down.
The barracks are gone (the foundations are still there). I assume the wooden structures were burned down to prevent disease. The crematorium and medical research rooms are still there, along with the wire, gate, auxiliary structures. There are also things such as the tall wooden poles where people were hanged from their arms.
The most emotional I got were with the crematorium, medical rooms, wooden poles, and the quarry. Why the quarry? If you've ever seen pictures of the quarry from the period, you know. (BTW, if you ever saw the old 70's mini-series Holocaust (Meryl Streep, James Woods), Buchenwald is portrayed as well as the quarry.
Interesting side note, I went right after East Germany collapsed, so there were a disproportionate number of memorials dedicated to Communist inmates.
********
Regarding my comment above about the self-loathing. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the two posts, but it bugs me when I see those equating the Germans and Japanese conduct with Americans in the war. If that is not what you were doing, I apologize. But there is no comparison. And unlike the Germans, the Japanese to this day have largely escaped the guilt of their crimes against humanity.
********
As to my experience at the Arizona with Japanese tourists... for those who don't know, 25 years of my life were spent on U.S.-Japanese relations. The reason I was at Pearl Harbor was I was in transit back from meetings in Japan and arranged for a quick stop over so I could make my first and only trip to Hawaii. Long story short, almost half my life has been spent with the Japanese people.
Their relationship with WWII is very complicated. And many Japanese to this day think we are to blame for starting that war. They also think their war crimes and crimes against humanity in Asia and against Western servicemen and civilians are a myth. People in this country have a vague understanding of what the Japanese did in China, but they really have no idea. They also don't really know about what the Japanese did in Burma, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc. They kind of know about the Baatan Death March, but they don't know the stories of the Japanese . murdering Western civilian men and women, often in gruesome manner.
So with the backdrop, the group of tourists on the Arizona memorial that day numbered about 20-25. As mentioned by many above, the Arizona is a mass gravesite where 1,100 Americans lie a few feet below the water. So anyone acting "happy" or being loud and kind of pushy is out of place. It's considered rude and inappropriate.. And especially so if you are from the country that killed those men. Imagine a bunch of Germans acting this way at Auschwitz (which is in Poland).
I agree with you 100% about the Arizona Memorial and certainly appreciate your unique perspective. I did not know you made a career of US-Japanese relations. It's interesting that their younger generation is so unaware of that dark part of their history. But, also not surprising, when, as you point out, Japan has been largely ignored as to it's war crimes and crimes against humanity. I still have very mixed feelings about Germany. But, at least on the surface it does appear they have gone to great lengths to educate their youth and own what they did. They outwardly portray a general feeling of remorse and empathy. I just can't bring myself to trust it.
Lastly, thank you for your experience at Buchenwald. I do recognize and appreciate the difference between the types of camps. Most people I have spoken to or read about have visited Auschwitz. My wife said she could feel what happened there well before even crossing through the gates. It was chilling.
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Matt M... there is a difference between the concentration camps and the death camps. Jews, political prisoners, Russians, gypsies, etc. were murdered at both, but scale in the death camps in East was at an industrial scale. I believe Buchenwald was the first concentration camp, with the first inmates being political prisoners but later expanding to all groups.
The barracks are gone (the foundations are still there). I assume the wooden structures were burned down to prevent disease. The crematorium and medical research rooms are still there, along with the wire, gate, auxiliary structures. There are also things such as the tall wooden poles where people were hanged from their arms.
The most emotional I got were with the crematorium, medical rooms, wooden poles, and the quarry. Why the quarry? If you've ever seen pictures of the quarry from the period, you know. (BTW, if you ever saw the old 70's mini-series Holocaust (Meryl Streep, James Woods), Buchenwald is portrayed as well as the quarry.
Interesting side note, I went right after East Germany collapsed, so there were a disproportionate number of memorials dedicated to Communist inmates.
********
Regarding my comment above about the self-loathing. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the two posts, but it bugs me when I see those equating the Germans and Japanese conduct with Americans in the war. If that is not what you were doing, I apologize. But there is no comparison. And unlike the Germans, the Japanese to this day have largely escaped the guilt of their crimes against humanity.
********
As to my experience at the Arizona with Japanese tourists... for those who don't know, 25 years of my life were spent on U.S.-Japanese relations. The reason I was at Pearl Harbor was I was in transit back from meetings in Japan and arranged for a quick stop over so I could make my first and only trip to Hawaii. Long story short, almost half my life has been spent with the Japanese people.
Their relationship with WWII is very complicated. And many Japanese to this day think we are to blame for starting that war. They also think their war crimes and crimes against humanity in Asia and against Western servicemen and civilians are a myth. People in this country have a vague understanding of what the Japanese did in China, but they really have no idea. They also don't really know about what the Japanese did in Burma, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc. They kind of know about the Baatan Death March, but they don't know the stories of the Japanese . murdering Western civilian men and women, often in gruesome manner.
So with the backdrop, the group of tourists on the Arizona memorial that day numbered about 20-25. As mentioned by many above, the Arizona is a mass gravesite where 1,100 Americans lie a few feet below the water. So anyone acting "happy" or being loud and kind of pushy is out of place. It's considered rude and inappropriate.. And especially so if you are from the country that killed those men. Imagine a bunch of Germans acting this way at Auschwitz (which is in Poland).
Thank you for your response. First, I was 100% not equating American conduct during the war with that of German or Japanese military. I was legitimately asking because, as I said in another post, I recall a commemorative ceremony I think for the 75 anniversary of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I read an article where the Japanese were asking for American tourists to stay away. I had never seen such a request and certainly never saw anything like that about the Arizona. To your point, the article was written from more of a self-loathing perspective, basically agreeing with the Japanese request.
I agree with you 100% about the Arizona Memorial and certainly appreciate your unique perspective. I did not know you made a career of US-Japanese relations. It's interesting that their younger generation is so unaware of that dark part of their history. But, also not surprising, when, as you point out, Japan has been largely ignored as to it's war crimes and crimes against humanity. I still have very mixed feelings about Germany. But, at least on the surface it does appear they have gone to great lengths to educate their youth and own what they did. They outwardly portray a general feeling of remorse and empathy. I just can't bring myself to trust it.
Lastly, thank you for your experience at Buchenwald. I do recognize and appreciate the difference between the types of camps. Most people I have spoken to or read about have visited Auschwitz. My wife said she could feel what happened there well before even crossing through the gates. It was chilling.
Personally, I would cringe at the former at any number of sites. AS I said, I never could bring myself to visit the 9/11 Memorial because of how I felt watching it become a ridiculous tourist destination while it was an active recovery and removal site. And this was primarily American tourists. So, I can imagine how you felt. It is not a place for kids to be running around or playing and not a site for anyone to be anything less than respectful.
The Tora, Tora, Tora reference above, as well as how the Japanese conduct their current diplomacy with their Asian neighbors are clues.
But more than that, it would be very odd for a people to consider the actions of their forefathers as completely evil. The Germans did it because we and the Soviets basically made them do it. So whether they would say it publicly or not, many Japanese probably look at Pearl Harbor with a great deal of pride. It was an incredible victory for them. They put the entire American battleship fleet out of action in one engagement (at the time, battleships were still considered the masters of the ocean, not aircraft carriers).
Want another clue? The Japanese recently launched their first aircraft carrier since WWII. You know what they called it? The Akagi. The Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo's Pearl Harbor strike force. (It was sunk at Midway).
Somebody had better tell U.S corporations using gulag slave labor in China.
The Tora, Tora, Tora reference above, as well as how the Japanese conduct their current diplomacy with their Asian neighbors are clues.
But more than that, it would be very odd for a people to consider the actions of their forefathers as completely evil. The Germans did it because we and the Soviets basically made them do it. So whether they would say it publicly or not, many Japanese probably look at Pearl Harbor with a great deal of pride. It was an incredible victory for them. They put the entire American battleship fleet out of action in one engagement (at the time, battleships were still considered the masters of the ocean, not aircraft carriers).
Want another clue? The Japanese recently launched their first aircraft carrier since WWII. You know what they called it? The Akagi. The Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo's Pearl Harbor strike force. (It was sunk at Midway).
The Tora, Tora, Tora reference above, as well as how the Japanese conduct their current diplomacy with their Asian neighbors are clues.
But more than that, it would be very odd for a people to consider the actions of their forefathers as completely evil. The Germans did it because we and the Soviets basically made them do it. So whether they would say it publicly or not, many Japanese probably look at Pearl Harbor with a great deal of pride. It was an incredible victory for them. They put the entire American battleship fleet out of action in one engagement (at the time, battleships were still considered the masters of the ocean, not aircraft carriers).
Want another clue? The Japanese recently launched their first aircraft carrier since WWII. You know what they called it? The Akagi. The Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo's Pearl Harbor strike force. (It was sunk at Midway).
Maybe we should keep an eye on the Akagi this time.
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I can't tell you what lies in the hearts and minds of other men and women. I can speculate, and speculate based on personal experience, but it's still just speculation.
The Tora, Tora, Tora reference above, as well as how the Japanese conduct their current diplomacy with their Asian neighbors are clues.
But more than that, it would be very odd for a people to consider the actions of their forefathers as completely evil. The Germans did it because we and the Soviets basically made them do it. So whether they would say it publicly or not, many Japanese probably look at Pearl Harbor with a great deal of pride. It was an incredible victory for them. They put the entire American battleship fleet out of action in one engagement (at the time, battleships were still considered the masters of the ocean, not aircraft carriers).
Want another clue? The Japanese recently launched their first aircraft carrier since WWII. You know what they called it? The Akagi. The Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo's Pearl Harbor strike force. (It was sunk at Midway).
Thank you for all this. I agree with you about Germany, which is why I say I have never fully trusted the public image being portrayed. Given your experience, you are probably more uniquely qualified to comment on this topic than anyone else here. I appreciate the input.
Slightly off topic, but I spent a lot of time in Korea, 3 years. In general, to this day the older generations still hate/dislike Japan for all that occurred during their occupation.
Again, no one was dancing a jig.
But I think most of us know how you are supposed to act at a gravesite.
For example, you go to DC, the way you act at Arlington should be different than how you act at the Smithsonian. That's the best analogy I can give. You speak with more hushed tones. You're more aware of the way you move around. You certainly don't go nuts trying to take group photos.
On my first trip to Japan, I casually mentioned to a Japanese national working at our Osaka consulate that I saw my first Japanese homeless person.. Her response was, "Not Japanese, he must have been Korean." (And this was a 20-something woman working for us).
And the Comfort Women issue is still huge in Korea. Japanese don't even like it mentioned.
Long story short, Americans don't really understand how most of the world is far, far, far, far more racist than any community in the United States. Ask Poles what they think about Germans. Or Serbs was they think about Bosnians. Or Greeks what they think about Turks. Even places that share the same race/language... the Dominicans think Haitians are scum.
They think they are infinitely superior to Americans. They really look down on us.
On the flip side, they are encumbered with so much guilt that they barely can function at times as a sovereign people and make idiotic societal choices because of it.
But they still have elements of their darker past too. They may not try to subjugate their neighbors with armies, but they do with euros. Ask the Greeks or Italians.
Want another clue? The Japanese recently launched their first aircraft carrier since WWII. You know what they called it? The Akagi. The Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo's Pearl Harbor strike force. (It was sunk at Midway).
You’re referring to the JS Kaga, a helicopter carrier being converted to also carry the F-35. Kaga was also the name of one of the carriers at Pearl and was also sunk at Midway. The JS Kaga is actually the second carrier Japan is converting, the first being the JS Izumo. Both are named for cities in Japan.
For those who haven't listened to it already, it covers his reaction to Pearl Harbor, his boot camp, the Battle of Saipan, the Indianapolis's arrival at Tinian, and loading of the bomb onto the Enola Gay. The sound isn't great, but it improves after the first minute or so.
And you also get the benefit of a thick but authentic NYC accent - ( New Window )
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Want another clue? The Japanese recently launched their first aircraft carrier since WWII. You know what they called it? The Akagi. The Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo's Pearl Harbor strike force. (It was sunk at Midway).
You’re referring to the JS Kaga, a helicopter carrier being converted to also carry the F-35. Kaga was also the name of one of the carriers at Pearl and was also sunk at Midway. The JS Kaga is actually the second carrier Japan is converting, the first being the JS Izumo. Both are named for cities in Japan.
Damn, I could have sworn it was the Akagi.
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the Germans are weird....They may not try to subjugate their neighbors with armies, but they do with euros. Ask the Greeks or Italians.
I'm not well informed on the subject, so I probably should stay out of it, but I'd imagine the Germans look at it as subsidizing, not subjugating.
Subsidies are a means of control. Much of Europe is not happy with they way Germany dictates policy based on financial blackmail.
👍💪🏼
I shall never forget that day even though it was before my time.
It is ingrained in my mind as are a few other historical dates..
👍💪🏼
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for starting this thread. I can't even see images of Pearly Harbor, Normandy, etc. without choking up. I don't know what I'd do if I actually visited.
I'll second that, TY Earl.
👍💪🏼
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I went to Auschwitz in college. I think everyone should go there as a lesson/reminder how we can never let something like that EVER happen again.
Somebody had better tell U.S corporations using gulag slave labor in China.
I don’t disagree. Also with the Uyghur’s in China. But that’s a topic for a different day.
Pretty wild when compared to JFK, Challenger, 9/11 where media was much more prevalent.
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In comment 16315584 JOrthman said:
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It's a very somber and ironically peaceful location.
The day I went there was a bunch of Japanese tourists there. You could cut the tension with a knife.
I was lucky enough to live there a few times and went there so much at one point I could have probably given a tour. A lot of the times I went there was a large group of Japanese tourists. On more than one occasions the group was borderline disrespectful.
It's not the Japanese tourists that misbehave.
It's the Chinese.
I know this because I have been there three times and all three times I notice that oriental people acting inappropriately.
The last time I spoke to a park ranger and he informed me that the Japanese visitors always acted solemnly but the Chinese visitors have to be constantly reminded that visitors are expected to act in a subdued manner.
Actually Dachau was first.
We are headed to Japan, including Hiroshima, in a couple of weeks and going to the Peace Memorial Museum. I plan, of course, to be there to pay my respects and will try to be a fly on the wall (as best an American can) to see how others around me act.
Regarding Normandy, we visited Omaha Beach including the cemetary a few years back and everyone was quiet, reverent, and respectful.
I was in awe of the history, and heroic deeds that took place where I was standing. My father fought in WWII (he's buried at Arlington), was in the N. African and Italy campaigns, but knew men who survived D-Day...quite a place.
I'd love to get to Pearl Harbor some day to pay my respects.
The world's a funny place...yesterday's enemy's are today's allies .
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In comment 16315590 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 16315584 JOrthman said:
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It's a very somber and ironically peaceful location.
The day I went there was a bunch of Japanese tourists there. You could cut the tension with a knife.
I was lucky enough to live there a few times and went there so much at one point I could have probably given a tour. A lot of the times I went there was a large group of Japanese tourists. On more than one occasions the group was borderline disrespectful.
It's not the Japanese tourists that misbehave.
It's the Chinese.
I know this because I have been there three times and all three times I notice that oriental people acting inappropriately.
The last time I spoke to a park ranger and he informed me that the Japanese visitors always acted solemnly but the Chinese visitors have to be constantly reminded that visitors are expected to act in a subdued manner.
Not to argue with an anonymous park ranger, but I know what happened when I was there.
That's mainly the reason why I went to this thread. On BBI if there are 90+ posts on a thread, there's a very good chance there's an argument taking place.