There are so many openings still and he is getting HCing interviews. There is no rush for either side. If you fire him then you lose out on comp picks if he gets a job. They are letting him be a HC for the Shrine Bowl which helps. From his perspective, you don't want to be fired or quit right now as it throws up some red flags.
RE: Amazing that a writer doesn't understand the difference between
they are not as good as last year because they lost both coordinators last year. Do you think the Giants could be much worse next year? Does going 3-14 make any difference from this year?
What’s this even mean? You referring to losing Kafka? If so, the offense has been absolute trash. I think we’ll be just fine
Kafka designed good routes and often our WRs were open. Yeah the o-line didn't give the QB time to survey the field and step up in the pocket but I don't know that the offense was "trash" at a fundamental level.
And the fact that teams seem to want him indicates he's got some appeal.
RE: Amazing that a writer doesn't understand the difference between
What’s this even mean? You referring to losing Kafka? If so, the offense has been absolute trash. I think we’ll be just fine
Kafka designed good routes and often our WRs were open. Yeah the o-line didn't give the QB time to survey the field and step up in the pocket but I don't know that the offense was "trash" at a fundamental level.
And the fact that teams seem to want him indicates he's got some appeal.
l
I'd say the play calling was horrible. I don't know how many times you can watch your QB drop back and get killed and still call longer developing passing plays? You have to adjust to what you have and not what you hope at some point.
and his side of the story. Seems like Wink and his guys have been feeding Raanan stuff for the last two years. He had Bobby Skinner on last week and just talked over him the whole time. He clearly doesn't like Daboll and is taking every opportunity to take a shot.
In any case, Kafka leaving is hardly a tragedy. And Wink leaving might be a blessing.
That is a very bad sign. It doesn't matter what you think about the job Wink or Kafka have done --Kafka walking is huge concern.
Agreed and give credence to the Leonard article. The Giants are trying to do damage control ever since the news broke from Glazer and there were rumors even before that. We can all jump on Wink and the brothers for how they handled it but the bigger problem is that this seems to be more than an isolated incident and if Daboll doesn't get his shit together soon then he will be looking for a new job this time next year. We all heard about his issues with McDermott. Now we know about Wink. Now Kafka? The common thread here is Daboll. Coughlin had the respect of his coaches but not his players and he was able to turn it around. Daboll has the respect of his players but it doesn't seem he has it with his coaches. Daboll has to prove this is all bullshit otherwise we are in for another long year.
I agree that it isn't a good look, but when did your boss yelling @ you become such a breaking point? My boss has yelled at me & I'm not immediately running for the door.
RE: RE: If we have an environment where the coordinators want out
That is a very bad sign. It doesn't matter what you think about the job Wink or Kafka have done --Kafka walking is huge concern.
Agreed and give credence to the Leonard article. The Giants are trying to do damage control ever since the news broke from Glazer and there were rumors even before that. We can all jump on Wink and the brothers for how they handled it but the bigger problem is that this seems to be more than an isolated incident and if Daboll doesn't get his shit together soon then he will be looking for a new job this time next year. We all heard about his issues with McDermott. Now we know about Wink. Now Kafka? The common thread here is Daboll. Coughlin had the respect of his coaches but not his players and he was able to turn it around. Daboll has the respect of his players but it doesn't seem he has it with his coaches. Daboll has to prove this is all bullshit otherwise we are in for another long year.
And Wink had issues with Harbaugh and now Daboll
See how that works
The Leonard article is BS and I’ll take the word of a fairly accurate ass hat on this site….Peppers who said the same thing
Leonard was literally thrown off the Rangers beat for literally making shit up
Leonard deserves no credence for anything he writes
⬆️
Do people who want Kafka gone also wish Daboll was fired? Or is he immune for some reason?
I hope Kafka stays.
It doesn’t sound like Kafka is getting fired though. If he leaves it’s his choice and he hasn’t done enough to lose sleep over that. Good luck and good bye.
As for Daboll, I’d prefer to give him another year but I also wouldn’t lose sleep if he were to leave. I’m not sure where this immune thing you’re talking about is coming from. Daboll has gotten plenty of criticism. But to my other point, Kafka leaving by choice and Daboll getting fired are two completely separate things
I’m still not sure what to make of this season and the noise
Being fiery and yelling is one thing. Being an asshole is another. I have no idea if this tweet is talking about Kafka definitely getting a head coaching gig or definitely gone for other reasons.
Is Daboll just a jerk or is all of this stuff just a bunch of overblown drama?
I agree that it isn't a good look, but when did your boss yelling @ you become such a breaking point? My boss has yelled at me & I'm not immediately running for the door.
It depends on how. I wouldn't assume it was just the yelling. If we are to believe the Leonard article, then he took play calling away and gave it to over people and himself to shitty results. He was making him out to be the scapegoat and then gave it back when that failed. Yelling is one thing but basically removing him from the role he was hired for and then thinking he could do better but didn't is not a place he wants to be in especially when his goal is to get a HCing job. If that is his goal then why would he stay?
I don't want him gone, but two third round picks works for me if it comes to that. If they are thinking of letting him go, then they better be talking him up big time first... get those picks. Now that said, I can't see someone hiring him for HC.
on this site for years as a troll (and rightly so). Why is he a trusted source of reliable information to so many of you?
Exactly. Leonard hasn’t earned the right for posters to say “if we are to believe Leonard…”. And nobody should ever give that clown the benefit of doubt. Ever.
Going to cut ties with Daboll do it sooner than later when all the coaches are elsewhere. I would like to see Pete Carrol here. He commands respect and has been successful and has a much better record than Dabol.
I'd probably win a BBI year end award for biggest Daboll fanboy, but it's hard to ignore what we've seen with our eyes and what's been reported every step of the way of Daboll's career. He's got a temper issue and grinds people down.
Google Colt McCoy and Brian Daboll.
I agree that he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt
and it was a one sided article. With that said, there was very specific information in that article. And if you've been paying attention, the Giants have put their own story out there numerous times just like the "there are people within the organization that want Daboll to call plays." That's not out there by accident. So, when this article came out, there was no spin on the Giants side. The article had very specific information on what was happening. The reason I hate Leonard is because he is a shit stirrer but also because he's one of those guys that creates the story and doesn't report the story. Well, this time he reported the story it seems albeit from one side. The other aspect is all these coaches leaving. There is a reason for it. They aren't leaving just to leave. This has been a crazy year with the turnover. If Kafka does leave for a lateral position then, like I said, it gives credence to his article.
have a bunch of bitches in among the couching staff. And a bunch of bitches on the beat. Maybe Pat and Jordan should run it back on Tom Coughlin in a 30 for 30 how horrible he was to this franchise.
RE: RE: RE: maybe we fans should remember the adage
What’s this even mean? You referring to losing Kafka? If so, the offense has been absolute trash. I think we’ll be just fine
Kafka designed good routes and often our WRs were open. Yeah the o-line didn't give the QB time to survey the field and step up in the pocket but I don't know that the offense was "trash" at a fundamental level.
And the fact that teams seem to want him indicates he's got some appeal.
Designed good routes? They have all been invented. The fly, swing pass, post, post corner, etc. What exactly did he design? All I know is whenever we play our WRs can't seem to get open
Do people who want Kafka gone also wish Daboll was fired? Or is he immune for some reason?
I hope Kafka stays.
It doesn’t sound like Kafka is getting fired though. If he leaves it’s his choice and he hasn’t done enough to lose sleep over that. Good luck and good bye.
As for Daboll, I’d prefer to give him another year but I also wouldn’t lose sleep if he were to leave. I’m not sure where this immune thing you’re talking about is coming from. Daboll has gotten plenty of criticism. But to my other point, Kafka leaving by choice and Daboll getting fired are two completely separate things
I meant immune from people wanting him gone. I agree, Kafka leaving on his own accord is much different than the other two--really nothing you can do about that--what I'm wondering is whether the people who want Kafka gone also want Daboll gone? To me, wanting Kafka gone but Daboll to stay is a little inconsistent. So I'm just wondering what these people who want Kafka gone are thinking.
I'd probably win a BBI year end award for biggest Daboll fanboy, but it's hard to ignore what we've seen with our eyes and what's been reported every step of the way of Daboll's career. He's got a temper issue and grinds people down.
Google Colt McCoy and Brian Daboll.
That Colt McCoy stuff is interesting for sure.
RE: I know we get compensatory picks if he gets hired as a HC
I'd probably win a BBI year end award for biggest Daboll fanboy, but it's hard to ignore what we've seen with our eyes and what's been reported every step of the way of Daboll's career. He's got a temper issue and grinds people down.
Google Colt McCoy and Brian Daboll.
That Colt McCoy stuff is interesting for sure.
Some people believe a useful tool to get the best out of others is to belittle them. There seems to be a lot of examples of Daboll doing that.
RE: RE: While i think Kafka has a lot of potential
I'd probably win a BBI year end award for biggest Daboll fanboy, but it's hard to ignore what we've seen with our eyes and what's been reported every step of the way of Daboll's career. He's got a temper issue and grinds people down.
Google Colt McCoy and Brian Daboll.
That Colt McCoy stuff is interesting for sure.
Some people believe a useful tool to get the best out of others is to belittle them. There seems to be a lot of examples of Daboll doing that.
For as much of a players coach Daboll is, he definitely seems to really grind on his staff.
Kafka is a good coach and he'd be a loss. Just look around at what the league thinks of him, he's getting HC interviews.
With that said, I'm fine with him leaving. 2024 is going to be a huge year for Daboll, he needs to bring in his guys who he's comfortable working with. If that's Shea Tierney as OC or Ken Dorsey, fine. He needs to chill out a bit too.
I think Daboll is a good coach and I'd really like the chance for him to develop his own QB.
For as much of a players coach Daboll is, he definitely seems to really grind on his staff.
Kafka is a good coach and he'd be a loss. Just look around at what the league thinks of him, he's getting HC interviews.
With that said, I'm fine with him leaving. 2024 is going to be a huge year for Daboll, he needs to bring in his guys who he's comfortable working with. If that's Shea Tierney as OC or Ken Dorsey, fine. He needs to chill out a bit too.
I think Daboll is a good coach and I'd really like the chance for him to develop his own QB.
I think that may be old because Carolina gets good grades and is rated 12th overall, and Reich is mentioned as a positive hire because he is a player's coach.
I dont mean this to sound like I'm not still 100% behind Daboll, but if he just gonna bust balls into the headsets and yell at people, he oughta just call the plays. He's got 3 doZen coaches, they can keep the other stuff together while he focuses on what got him where he is to begin with.
RE: Amazing that a writer doesn't understand the difference between
The Giants need a lot of coaching changes. I just don't think the Giants wideouts will be successful under him. I'm afraid of the Giants drafting a WR like Harrison, Rome, or Nabers and them not being fully utilized and panning out.
So we have a rough year and no most of our coaches are leaving. Special teams, DC, running backs, maybe OC
Something is off.
I posted some time ago that I thought something was going on with Daboll. He really seamed off this year. I would not be surprised if there is something going on in his personal life that is adding stress.
So we have a rough year and no most of our coaches are leaving. Special teams, DC, running backs, maybe OC
Something is off.
I posted some time ago that I thought something was going on with Daboll. He really seamed off this year. I would not be surprised if there is something going on in his personal life that is adding stress.
Wait a sec….something is off as you claim for getting rid of coaches whose units sucked?
Really….so you would have kept our OL and special teams coach?
Yet another guy who buys into the Pat Leonard nonsense
I dont mean this to sound like I'm not still 100% behind Daboll, but if he just gonna bust balls into the headsets and yell at people, he oughta just call the plays. He's got 3 doZen coaches, they can keep the other stuff together while he focuses on what got him where he is to begin with.
Agreed, I'd like him to take over the offense like most good offensive head coaches do. Bring in Dorsey or promote Tierney to be the non-play calling OC underneath. It clearly wasn't working well with Kafka. Daboll didn't know Kafka or Wink. He got credit for thinking outside the box, but it didn't exactly work out.
RE: RE: RE: maybe we fans should remember the adage
What’s this even mean? You referring to losing Kafka? If so, the offense has been absolute trash. I think we’ll be just fine
Kafka designed good routes and often our WRs were open. Yeah the o-line didn't give the QB time to survey the field and step up in the pocket but I don't know that the offense was "trash" at a fundamental level.
And the fact that teams seem to want him indicates he's got some appeal.
I'd argue that the O-line performance and blocking schemes are some of the most fundamental parts of an offense, and they were trash by almost any measure.
That said, I wouldn't be happy to see Kafka go just yet.
So we have a rough year and no most of our coaches are leaving. Special teams, DC, running backs, maybe OC
Something is off.
I posted some time ago that I thought something was going on with Daboll. He really seamed off this year. I would not be surprised if there is something going on in his personal life that is adding stress.
(1) Most of the coaches are not leaving. Not even close.
(2) The RB coach was offered to be an offensive coordinator. That's .a big promotion.
(3) The DC and the two Wilkins brothers were fired. We know why.
(4) The OL coach was fired. We know why.
(5) The special teams coach was fired. We know why.
You either know all of this, or you don't. I don't know which explanation makes you look worse.
they are not as good as last year because they lost both coordinators last year. Do you think the Giants could be much worse next year? Does going 3-14 make any difference from this year?
All good. Especially since next year's QB crop is supposed to be especially good. Oh, wait...
It's all on Dabes now. I expect him to go even more berserk next season. The noose may be tightening.
Daboll is am offensive coach, coaching for his job
value, this is not the situation the Giants want to he in. Turning over this much of his staff is a reflection on Daboll as a HC just like it was with Gettleman and his HCs. He's the one picking his staff. Right now he went through 2 of 3 coordinators, his OL coach, his OLB coach, and his strength and conditioning coach. Yes, his OC left for a promotion so I won't include that here. This is not ideal at all. This can be looked at two different ways. One, Daboll did not make the best hires and that's on him. Two, Daboll is cleaning house to bring in the right guys.
As Giants fans we all hope it works out. If Dennard Wilson is coming over, I am excited to see what he can do although the D is going to look much different imo considering the amount of zone both Philly and Baltimore played. That doesn't mean it is a bad thing. I'm excited to have a successful OL coach with a track record. I'm excited to have any other ST coach. But the reality is that Daboll most likely cannot have another year like this. It needs to turn around. And Schoen needs a better offseason as well. Let hope they can right this ship.
I really believe it's a combination --- we just had a lousy, disappointing season and so he fired two coaches whose units underperformed (ST and OL). On the Defensive side, the DC and his minions were disloyal and were probably leaking to the press - thinking they were more important than the team. That's never a good situation, so they "parted ways" and the Giants avoided paying out their salary. Happens all the time in business, education, medicine, politics, etc.
In terms of the other staff losses, they left for promotions. Perfectly normal turnover. They weren't going to stay and hinder their careers out of some loyalty or allegiance to Daboll. If Kafka leaves and it's for a HC job or play calling OC, who can blame him? Clearly, Daboll prefers an OC who designs plays and sets up the game plan while he (Daboll) actually calls the plays. It's Daboll's head if they have another poor year, so why wouldn't he want to go down on his terms?
In terms of his selection of coaches - yes there were mistakes made, but again, you have to correct those mistakes rather live with them and suffer for it. Hopefully, the new staff will represent an improvement. There certainly is no shortage of coaches willing to come to the Giants for advancement, raises, etc.
If his demeanor is less than saintly, then he he ought to take a look in the mirror and also be guided by those who are true friends and allow himself to be "coached up". Losing isn't fun and it surely grated on him. Hopefully, it's a lesson learned. People can learn and change in terms of their interactions with subordinates - his issue is that it's out in public, so he would be wise to be more private with his criticisms. He would be well advised to tone down the public tirades.
This is not some sort of "Caine Mutiny".
Rather it's a reflection of writers / reporters looking for a story line or eager to "notch up" another scalp. Happens all the time, especially in very public jobs.
Is it a "good look" - certainly not but winning will make this all disappear so the writers can concentrate on writing "Tommy Cutlets" type puff pieces.
what is being said by some.
Somehow getting rid of underperforming players is a necessity but getting rid of underperforming coaches is abhorent.
I do not know if Daboll is Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. But he gave his initial hirings two years to step up. Those that were let go did not meet expectations. That is not a bad thing people. It takes time to learn to be HC. There is a learning curve.
This is what we do know:
1) STs played poorly most of the year and most people here wanted McGaughey's head.
2) The oline did not develop one player in two years, in fact many regressed
3) OLB play was spotty and as many here pointed out Thibodeaux never developed secondary or tertiary moves. When he did get on the field Ojulari looked slow. OLB repeatedly failed to hold the edge.
4) The DC apparently took to the media and undercut the HC for reasons only known to them and staff. Despite adding A'Shawn and Nacho the run defense was awful. They had CBs playing 10 yards off on 3rd and 3s. They played soft zone on 3rd and long.
As far as Kafka, he designs what look like great plays. But he seems to call strange plays at times. He sometimes seems to not have a feel for the game. I am not sure that Daboll took over calling plays as shots of Kafka in the both show him calling the play. Perhaps Daboll overrode him on some, IDK.
But, IMHO, it is not a bad thing to change the coaching staff in areas that were downright terrible. In fact, it is something he had better do. I also believe that Schoen had his hand in letting Johnson and the Wilkins brothers go.
teams won’t fire a coordinator while they are interviewing for HC jobs. But we are probably looking for an OC and if the report is true Kafka probably knows he isn’t coming back
Very rational post but about 4, focusing on a couple of lousy games while ignoring all the really good ones Martindale’s D had is biased. Martindale was being retained but forced his way out.
So the first 3 dismissals were performance related but Wink was not. I’m also very skeptical Kafka will be fired. I dont believe BBIers have the knowledge to assess Kafka and so should stop expressing an opinion.
Very rational post but about 4, focusing on a couple of lousy games while ignoring all the really good ones Martindale’s D had is biased. Martindale was being retained but forced his way out.
So the first 3 dismissals were performance related but Wink was not. I’m also very skeptical Kafka will be fired. I dont believe BBIers have the knowledge to assess Kafka and so should stop expressing an opinion.
Wink had some good games, yes. In reality they end up 27th in points and 25th(?) in yards per game. I wasn't trying to be biased at all - I like Wink. I saw far to many games with them so far off the WRs on 3rd and short that a completion for 1st down was a given. The Jets game was plain stupidity.
Wink was given a majority of the new resources last off season, IMV. Run defense did not improve. Yards per game did not improve. Yes, the offense had far too many 3 and outs. But the defense had far too many 12 play drives given up, many of which had several 3rd and longs that were not defended against.
We crapped on Patrick Graham for shoddy defense, should Wink escape scrutiny?
If Jordan means the team has decided to move on from Kafka, then so be it. But if it means as some reporters have hinted at that Kafka intends to leave by his own choosing based on a toxic environment, then that is a very bad sign, and anyone saying otherwise is fooling themselves, regardless about the job you think Kafka has done.
Think we all need to remember that Daboll did not really want Martindale or Kafka as his first choices for coordinators.
Ah, the old "he had coordinators forced on him." gambit; a tried and true BBI trope. Never mind you were all afraid before the season that Martindale and Kafka would be poached. Now those grapes were sour anyway, right. Oh, well, you all loved Judge too. And for all of you oh so confident in McDaboll as his own OC, this would be his 4th stint in the role. The first two were disasters and the third he had uber-talent Josh Allen- oh wow, tough duty there.
Take away from this soap opera what you will, we should all agree that the pugnacious Daboll needs to be better. They got off to a 7-2 start last season. Since then, 8-16-1. They need to come out with a good start next season or it will be his last. This offseason hasn't exactly gotten off to a model start, and if this was the Cowboys, Jets, Eagles or Washington, you'd all be pointing fingers and laughing.
point for me. I just see more pressure on the HC to be a lot better next season. No excuses.
Plenty of HC's have had a lot of turmoil to deal with and responded moving forward with favorable results. BD has his chance and I hope it works out. If not, it is time to move on.
I like Jordan personally and have spent time with him
but my observation based on following him since he's been on the beat is that his comments like this are rarely on target.
By the way: Who is "everyone" ? On it's surface that's a lot of people, and Jordan uses this like it actually means something. If you really parse it out, it's implied meaning is that: "everyone, who you would think knows anything, (wink, wink, nudge, nudge," which is really not a source at all.
He hasn't done such a great job here, I bet there are a lot of guys who could do the same (or better). If he's not happy let him go. I also do believe that Daboll started calling plays during the season, as guessed by many, so another strike on Kafka.
Kafka - was not asked to leave -- and does not have the track record that Wink does... so where exactly is he gonna go?
Is he making a lateral move? Unlikely
Is he getting a HC job -- also seems unlikely right now
Is he leaving for a college job? I don't think that's out of the question, but I also don't see it.
Love how people attack the reporters every time they
In comment 16370345 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
and his side of the story. Seems like Wink and his guys have been feeding Raanan stuff for the last two years. He had Bobby Skinner on last week and just talked over him the whole time. He clearly doesn't like Daboll and is taking every opportunity to take a shot.
In any case, Kafka leaving is hardly a tragedy. And Wink leaving might be a blessing.
Jordan's "sources" are even more obvious than Pat Leonard's. He's been defending not only Wink, but Drew fucking Wilkins for months now, and his Kafka rumors are just an extension of his Wink narrative because it's the only way left for him to continue to smear Daboll.
one of the HC jobs. As I mentioned in the Senior Bowl QB thread, can you imagine being an owner or GM and selling your fan base on a HC that just ran the worst offense in the league? I guess there have been crazier hires, but I don’t see it.
RE: Love how people attack the reporters every time they
or just refusing to stick your head in the sand because you don't like the messenger? There is a lot of disfunction going on in the organization right now.
Attack Ranaan or not. If we lose all three coordinators
and two of them to dysfunction, it's bad for Daboll and Schoen. That hasn't happened yet but damn, there's a lot of smoke this season. You can shoot the messenger if you want, but that kind of denialism doesn't really help in the end.
The dysfunction does not appear to be just between the lines and that is a problem that must be fixed or this regime will meet the same fate as the last one.
RE: Attack Ranaan or not. If we lose all three coordinators
and two of them to dysfunction, it's bad for Daboll and Schoen. That hasn't happened yet but damn, there's a lot of smoke this season. You can shoot the messenger if you want, but that kind of denialism doesn't really help in the end.
The dysfunction does not appear to be just between the lines and that is a problem that must be fixed or this regime will meet the same fate as the last one.
Disfunction according to Pat Leonard 😂😂😂
Do you think the special teams coach should have been retained?
How about our O-line coach?
So replacing coaches who were not doing a good job is now classified as disfunction?
Amazing that anyone here….based on Leonard’s track record literally gives him any credence
The guy was literally thrown off the Rangers beat for making stuff up
Sheesh
RE: Attack Ranaan or not. If we lose all three coordinators
and two of them to dysfunction, it's bad for Daboll and Schoen. That hasn't happened yet but damn, there's a lot of smoke this season. You can shoot the messenger if you want, but that kind of denialism doesn't really help in the end.
The dysfunction does not appear to be just between the lines and that is a problem that must be fixed or this regime will meet the same fate as the last one.
We lost one to incompetence (McGaughey) and one to ego and cronyism (Wink). If we lose a third (Kafka), it will be to a HC position, which is something that can happen with any coordinator. Zero have been lost due to dysfunction.
Homer - you completely misread what I was trying to say.
Daboll wanted to hire Ken Dorsey. Ken Dorsey was blocked by the Bills.
Daboll was going to keep Patrick Graham, he left for Las Vegas.
He then had to pivot and hire the two best guys he thought would fit, Kafka and Martindale.
He dodged a bullet with Ken Dorsey. He's the character who had Josh Allen throwing 4 yard passes to Murray and 7 yard outs instead of going down the field and came close to having his HC let go as a result. Frankly, other than his big mouth, Martindale and Graham are a push. I don't see either of them as some big excuse.
who haven't worked out? Does Daboll take any responsibility? Where was he?
The only one that we know he hired is Bobby Johnson.
McGaughey was a holdover. The Wilkins brothers were Wink hires. Wink himself had interviewed with the Giants two years earlier for HC, and might have been a collaborative choice from the organization after getting spurned by Graham. The fact that Wink seemed to believe that he reported directly to ownership and owed no deference to Daboll at least suggests the possibility that Mara held some influence in hiring Wink, IMO.
who haven't worked out? Does Daboll take any responsibility? Where was he?
The only one that we know he hired is Bobby Johnson.
McGaughey was a holdover. The Wilkins brothers were Wink hires. Wink himself had interviewed with the Giants two years earlier for HC, and might have been a collaborative choice from the organization after getting spurned by Graham. The fact that Wink seemed to believe that he reported directly to ownership and owed no deference to Daboll at least suggests the possibility that Mara held some influence in hiring Wink, IMO.
He doesn't get a pass for McGaughey as a holdover. Retaining him (with or without considering alternatives) is functionally the same thing as hiring him.
He doesn't get a pass for McGaughey as a holdover. Retaining him (with or without considering alternatives) is functionally the same thing as hiring him.
It's a very fair point, and I remember at the time being puzzled as to why Daboll would want to keep two of the coordinators from Judge's staff (since Graham was the initial choice for DC, reportedly).
But I also have questions about Daboll's autonomy with the staff. I do believe that Wink was somewhat thrust upon him from above (although this has very little supporting evidence and is rooted primarily in my circumstantial interpretation of Wink's behavior, so it's purely my opinion), which makes me wonder if McGaughey might have been as well.
I'm not certain if Daboll was actually given the reins to filling the entire coaching staff, or if he was only really in charge of the offensive staff. The fracture between Wink and Daboll is honestly what led me to this opinion, and then retrospectively considering the initial attempt to retain both McGaughey and Graham reinforced it.
That's admittedly a very pro-Daboll view, and I am aware of my own bias in seeing it this way. Mainly, I don't want to accept the possibility that the Giants have shit the bed with their HC choice for the fourth consecutive time. I have enough fatigue regarding this franchise as it is. I need to hold out hope that Schoen and Daboll can be part of the solution. And my greatest fear is that Mara will use a failure with Schoen/Daboll as confirmation that his cronyism is no worse than seeking outside expertise for the franchise leadership.
as far as I can tell, no other reporter that covers the team has said anything about Kafka being out.
Correct. The only one who keeps saying it is Raanan, who randomly has also been VERY pro-Wink (and pro-Wilkins). Then Bobby Skinner and Justin Penik keep repeating it (because Jordan is friendly with them), and it starts to feel like it's coming from multiple reports.
But it's really only Jordan. And his source is Drew Wilkins.
RE: RE: Attack Ranaan or not. If we lose all three coordinators
and two of them to dysfunction, it's bad for Daboll and Schoen. That hasn't happened yet but damn, there's a lot of smoke this season. You can shoot the messenger if you want, but that kind of denialism doesn't really help in the end.
The dysfunction does not appear to be just between the lines and that is a problem that must be fixed or this regime will meet the same fate as the last one.
We lost one to incompetence (McGaughey) and one to ego and cronyism (Wink). If we lose a third (Kafka), it will be to a HC position, which is something that can happen with any coordinator. Zero have been lost due to dysfunction.
If Kafka goes for a HC job, ok that's fair. If he leaves for a lateral move, its totally different. But we're really putting our heads in the sand if we are pretending that this much smoke has no fire behind it. Obviously Wink is gone from dysfunction. Pretty silly to call it anything else. Daboll hired these guys and now two years later, looks like they'll all be gone. You can say that the problems lie with the guys who are leaking to the press but Daboll brought those guys in and it sure as hell doesn't seem like he's blameless in the shit that's getting leaked to the beat writers.
Regardless of what's really true behind the scenes, he's only gonna get one more chance to hire coordinators and if he doesn't get it right, he'll be gone. Poor on field performance and this bullshit in the offseason is how he'll become an OC again.
as far as I can tell, no other reporter that covers the team has said anything about Kafka being out.
Correct. The only one who keeps saying it is Raanan, who randomly has also been VERY pro-Wink (and pro-Wilkins). Then Bobby Skinner and Justin Penik keep repeating it (because Jordan is friendly with them), and it starts to feel like it's coming from multiple reports.
But it's really only Jordan. And his source is Drew Wilkins.
I’m hoping this is the case. The alternative, as Heisenberg explained, puts us in a very concerning place to attempt a multi-year rebuild.
I don't care if Daboll is an ass to work for or with. Daboll never worked with Wink or Kafka before he hired them. He didn't know them, they didn't know him. It takes one to know one. I think Wink is a dinosaur and while I also think he's still a good DC, the Eagles and Cowboys DESTROYED his defense and he had zero in game answers or he didn't even attempt to adjust. Probably both.
I would have been happy if Wink was fired after the Miami game. Putting Hawkins in press coverage, with no help, on the field side against Tyreek Hill is a special kind of either incompetence or insubordination. I think Wink might be the new Rob Ryan. I haven't forgotten that John Harbaugh thought his team would be better without Wink. Harbaugh was right.
As far as Kafka goes, IMO he has outlived his usefulness. I thought it was very smart to pull a coach from Andy Reid and try to incorporate some of what Reid does on offense into Daboll's offense. I watched Daboll as an OC and play caller in Buffalo. While that's not the same level of investment for me as watching the Giants play caller, I saw enough from Daboll to know he wants to run a pass happy offense. Sign me up. I'd rather have Daboll calling the plays and I think he should insist on doing it with his job on the line. If Kafka doesn't like it he can leave.
Special Teams Coordinator = 2
Tom Quinn 2007-2017. Thomas McGaughey 2018-2023.
Head Coaches 2007-2023 = 5
General Managers 2007-2023 = 3
Owners 2007-2023 = 1
The Owners of the NY Giants hired 3 General Managers and 5 Head Coaches in the past decade but they've only had 2 special teams coaches since 2007? Anyone else find that odd? I don't follow other teams coaching staffs closely enough to know if it's customary for some ST coordinators to remain on staff for the same organization through 3 coaching changes. I'm going to guess it's not.
Hopefully whoever Daboll hires as ST coordinator has worked with him before and knows what he's getting into and as a bonus the STC won't be working directly for ownership anymore.
I'm rooting for him. I hope Daboll can find his guys and be the HC to turn things around in 2024 for the Giants. If not I think we will have to watch the Giants start the process over again.
At this point I doubt he is let go. Perhaps he leaves om his own...
-or-
stirring up shit
This was from someone reporting on what Raanan said on a podcast, not a Raanan tweet.
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must've and must of.
This was from someone reporting on what Raanan said on a podcast, not a Raanan tweet.
Gotcha. I saw the @JordanRaanan and assumed it was a tweet
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must've and must of.
This was from someone reporting on what Raanan said on a podcast, not a Raanan tweet.
Yes. I should've specified.
He could've learned that earlier.
He should have.
What’s this even mean? You referring to losing Kafka? If so, the offense has been absolute trash. I think we’ll be just fine
I see him being the primary playcaller next season as it stands. The season in 2024 is a massive one and he needs to hang on.
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you don't know what you've got till it's gone
What’s this even mean? You referring to losing Kafka? If so, the offense has been absolute trash. I think we’ll be just fine
Kafka designed good routes and often our WRs were open. Yeah the o-line didn't give the QB time to survey the field and step up in the pocket but I don't know that the offense was "trash" at a fundamental level.
And the fact that teams seem to want him indicates he's got some appeal.
+1
Brian Daboll lacks self-control?
Or, something else?
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In comment 16370291 Giantsfan79 said:
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you don't know what you've got till it's gone
What’s this even mean? You referring to losing Kafka? If so, the offense has been absolute trash. I think we’ll be just fine
Kafka designed good routes and often our WRs were open. Yeah the o-line didn't give the QB time to survey the field and step up in the pocket but I don't know that the offense was "trash" at a fundamental level.
And the fact that teams seem to want him indicates he's got some appeal.
I'd say the play calling was horrible. I don't know how many times you can watch your QB drop back and get killed and still call longer developing passing plays? You have to adjust to what you have and not what you hope at some point.
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In comment 16370281 robbieballs2003 said:
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must've and must of.
This was from someone reporting on what Raanan said on a podcast, not a Raanan tweet.
Gotcha. I saw the @JordanRaanan and assumed it was a tweet
I wanted to fact check the source because I thought the same thing you did, lol.
Plus one. Do we really care if he goes? What are we losing at this point less than 20 points a game.
In any case, Kafka leaving is hardly a tragedy. And Wink leaving might be a blessing.
He's only been an OC for 2 years and during that tenure his resutls for whatever reason are below .500?
I hope Kafka stays.
Are you actually gonna giving credence to the Leonard article?
Come on now
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Daboll’s treatment of Kafka was worse than Winks. I wouldn’t be surprised if Kafka left even for on a lateral move.
Are you actually gonna giving credence to the Leonard article?
Come on now
Leonard sucks but he was pretty specific with who was calling plays which weeks. If he didn't have a source, that's a hell of a thing to make up.
Agreed and give credence to the Leonard article. The Giants are trying to do damage control ever since the news broke from Glazer and there were rumors even before that. We can all jump on Wink and the brothers for how they handled it but the bigger problem is that this seems to be more than an isolated incident and if Daboll doesn't get his shit together soon then he will be looking for a new job this time next year. We all heard about his issues with McDermott. Now we know about Wink. Now Kafka? The common thread here is Daboll. Coughlin had the respect of his coaches but not his players and he was able to turn it around. Daboll has the respect of his players but it doesn't seem he has it with his coaches. Daboll has to prove this is all bullshit otherwise we are in for another long year.
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That is a very bad sign. It doesn't matter what you think about the job Wink or Kafka have done --Kafka walking is huge concern.
Agreed and give credence to the Leonard article. The Giants are trying to do damage control ever since the news broke from Glazer and there were rumors even before that. We can all jump on Wink and the brothers for how they handled it but the bigger problem is that this seems to be more than an isolated incident and if Daboll doesn't get his shit together soon then he will be looking for a new job this time next year. We all heard about his issues with McDermott. Now we know about Wink. Now Kafka? The common thread here is Daboll. Coughlin had the respect of his coaches but not his players and he was able to turn it around. Daboll has the respect of his players but it doesn't seem he has it with his coaches. Daboll has to prove this is all bullshit otherwise we are in for another long year.
And Wink had issues with Harbaugh and now Daboll
See how that works
The Leonard article is BS and I’ll take the word of a fairly accurate ass hat on this site….Peppers who said the same thing
Leonard was literally thrown off the Rangers beat for literally making shit up
Leonard deserves no credence for anything he writes
⬆️
I hope Kafka stays.
It doesn’t sound like Kafka is getting fired though. If he leaves it’s his choice and he hasn’t done enough to lose sleep over that. Good luck and good bye.
As for Daboll, I’d prefer to give him another year but I also wouldn’t lose sleep if he were to leave. I’m not sure where this immune thing you’re talking about is coming from. Daboll has gotten plenty of criticism. But to my other point, Kafka leaving by choice and Daboll getting fired are two completely separate things
Being fiery and yelling is one thing. Being an asshole is another. I have no idea if this tweet is talking about Kafka definitely getting a head coaching gig or definitely gone for other reasons.
Is Daboll just a jerk or is all of this stuff just a bunch of overblown drama?
It depends on how. I wouldn't assume it was just the yelling. If we are to believe the Leonard article, then he took play calling away and gave it to over people and himself to shitty results. He was making him out to be the scapegoat and then gave it back when that failed. Yelling is one thing but basically removing him from the role he was hired for and then thinking he could do better but didn't is not a place he wants to be in especially when his goal is to get a HCing job. If that is his goal then why would he stay?
Exactly. Leonard hasn’t earned the right for posters to say “if we are to believe Leonard…”. And nobody should ever give that clown the benefit of doubt. Ever.
Google Colt McCoy and Brian Daboll.
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In comment 16370291 Giantsfan79 said:
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you don't know what you've got till it's gone
What’s this even mean? You referring to losing Kafka? If so, the offense has been absolute trash. I think we’ll be just fine
Kafka designed good routes and often our WRs were open. Yeah the o-line didn't give the QB time to survey the field and step up in the pocket but I don't know that the offense was "trash" at a fundamental level.
And the fact that teams seem to want him indicates he's got some appeal.
Designed good routes? They have all been invented. The fly, swing pass, post, post corner, etc. What exactly did he design? All I know is whenever we play our WRs can't seem to get open
I truly don’t know what the protocol is in this situation.
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Do people who want Kafka gone also wish Daboll was fired? Or is he immune for some reason?
I hope Kafka stays.
It doesn’t sound like Kafka is getting fired though. If he leaves it’s his choice and he hasn’t done enough to lose sleep over that. Good luck and good bye.
As for Daboll, I’d prefer to give him another year but I also wouldn’t lose sleep if he were to leave. I’m not sure where this immune thing you’re talking about is coming from. Daboll has gotten plenty of criticism. But to my other point, Kafka leaving by choice and Daboll getting fired are two completely separate things
I meant immune from people wanting him gone. I agree, Kafka leaving on his own accord is much different than the other two--really nothing you can do about that--what I'm wondering is whether the people who want Kafka gone also want Daboll gone? To me, wanting Kafka gone but Daboll to stay is a little inconsistent. So I'm just wondering what these people who want Kafka gone are thinking.
Someone above said it was on a podcast.
Google Colt McCoy and Brian Daboll.
That Colt McCoy stuff is interesting for sure.
No
Here's the link to it.
Link - ( New Window )
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Do we also get compensatory picks if he leaves to go be an OC somewhere else?
No
What if Daboll demoted him to an offensive assistant? Lol
He's only been an OC for 2 years and during that tenure his resutls for whatever reason are below .500?
This. How does a team sell their fanbase on Kafka as a HC? I don't even know how easy a sell he is as an OC.
Google Colt McCoy and Brian Daboll.
That Colt McCoy stuff is interesting for sure.
Some people believe a useful tool to get the best out of others is to belittle them. There seems to be a lot of examples of Daboll doing that.
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Wouldn't someone w a huge risk appointing him as a HC?
He's only been an OC for 2 years and during that tenure his resutls for whatever reason are below .500?
This. How does a team sell their fanbase on Kafka as a HC? I don't even know how easy a sell he is as an OC.
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I'd probably win a BBI year end award for biggest Daboll fanboy, but it's hard to ignore what we've seen with our eyes and what's been reported every step of the way of Daboll's career. He's got a temper issue and grinds people down.
Google Colt McCoy and Brian Daboll.
That Colt McCoy stuff is interesting for sure.
Some people believe a useful tool to get the best out of others is to belittle them. There seems to be a lot of examples of Daboll doing that.
This is also my approach to posting on BBI.
Some people believe a useful tool to get the best out of others is to belittle them. There seems to be a lot of examples of Daboll doing that.
This is also my approach to posting on BBI.
I've got some suggestions if you're looking for opportunities.
For as much of a players coach Daboll is, he definitely seems to really grind on his staff.
Kafka is a good coach and he'd be a loss. Just look around at what the league thinks of him, he's getting HC interviews.
With that said, I'm fine with him leaving. 2024 is going to be a huge year for Daboll, he needs to bring in his guys who he's comfortable working with. If that's Shea Tierney as OC or Ken Dorsey, fine. He needs to chill out a bit too.
I think Daboll is a good coach and I'd really like the chance for him to develop his own QB.
For as much of a players coach Daboll is, he definitely seems to really grind on his staff.
Kafka is a good coach and he'd be a loss. Just look around at what the league thinks of him, he's getting HC interviews.
With that said, I'm fine with him leaving. 2024 is going to be a huge year for Daboll, he needs to bring in his guys who he's comfortable working with. If that's Shea Tierney as OC or Ken Dorsey, fine. He needs to chill out a bit too.
I think Daboll is a good coach and I'd really like the chance for him to develop his own QB.
I think that may be old because Carolina gets good grades and is rated 12th overall, and Reich is mentioned as a positive hire because he is a player's coach.
It's both amazing and embarrassing.
Scapegoats 😂😂😂
Is that the new theme of bull shit you’ll be peddling and repeating the same thing line another 500 times
Or are you going to find another way to inject the race card again?
Something is off.
I posted some time ago that I thought something was going on with Daboll. He really seamed off this year. I would not be surprised if there is something going on in his personal life that is adding stress.
Something is off.
I posted some time ago that I thought something was going on with Daboll. He really seamed off this year. I would not be surprised if there is something going on in his personal life that is adding stress.
Wait a sec….something is off as you claim for getting rid of coaches whose units sucked?
Really….so you would have kept our OL and special teams coach?
Yet another guy who buys into the Pat Leonard nonsense
Agreed, I'd like him to take over the offense like most good offensive head coaches do. Bring in Dorsey or promote Tierney to be the non-play calling OC underneath. It clearly wasn't working well with Kafka. Daboll didn't know Kafka or Wink. He got credit for thinking outside the box, but it didn't exactly work out.
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In comment 16370291 Giantsfan79 said:
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you don't know what you've got till it's gone
What’s this even mean? You referring to losing Kafka? If so, the offense has been absolute trash. I think we’ll be just fine
Kafka designed good routes and often our WRs were open. Yeah the o-line didn't give the QB time to survey the field and step up in the pocket but I don't know that the offense was "trash" at a fundamental level.
And the fact that teams seem to want him indicates he's got some appeal.
I'd argue that the O-line performance and blocking schemes are some of the most fundamental parts of an offense, and they were trash by almost any measure.
That said, I wouldn't be happy to see Kafka go just yet.
Something is off.
I posted some time ago that I thought something was going on with Daboll. He really seamed off this year. I would not be surprised if there is something going on in his personal life that is adding stress.
(1) Most of the coaches are not leaving. Not even close.
(2) The RB coach was offered to be an offensive coordinator. That's .a big promotion.
(3) The DC and the two Wilkins brothers were fired. We know why.
(4) The OL coach was fired. We know why.
(5) The special teams coach was fired. We know why.
You either know all of this, or you don't. I don't know which explanation makes you look worse.
All good. Especially since next year's QB crop is supposed to be especially good. Oh, wait...
It's all on Dabes now. I expect him to go even more berserk next season. The noose may be tightening.
If thats true, i couldnt be mad at all
If thats true, i couldnt be mad at all
Only if he leaves for a promotion in the NFL. People have posted that he is Puerto Rican so we would get two 3rd round picks.
As Giants fans we all hope it works out. If Dennard Wilson is coming over, I am excited to see what he can do although the D is going to look much different imo considering the amount of zone both Philly and Baltimore played. That doesn't mean it is a bad thing. I'm excited to have a successful OL coach with a track record. I'm excited to have any other ST coach. But the reality is that Daboll most likely cannot have another year like this. It needs to turn around. And Schoen needs a better offseason as well. Let hope they can right this ship.
I’m not sure you know what scapegoating means
In terms of the other staff losses, they left for promotions. Perfectly normal turnover. They weren't going to stay and hinder their careers out of some loyalty or allegiance to Daboll. If Kafka leaves and it's for a HC job or play calling OC, who can blame him? Clearly, Daboll prefers an OC who designs plays and sets up the game plan while he (Daboll) actually calls the plays. It's Daboll's head if they have another poor year, so why wouldn't he want to go down on his terms?
In terms of his selection of coaches - yes there were mistakes made, but again, you have to correct those mistakes rather live with them and suffer for it. Hopefully, the new staff will represent an improvement. There certainly is no shortage of coaches willing to come to the Giants for advancement, raises, etc.
If his demeanor is less than saintly, then he he ought to take a look in the mirror and also be guided by those who are true friends and allow himself to be "coached up". Losing isn't fun and it surely grated on him. Hopefully, it's a lesson learned. People can learn and change in terms of their interactions with subordinates - his issue is that it's out in public, so he would be wise to be more private with his criticisms. He would be well advised to tone down the public tirades.
This is not some sort of "Caine Mutiny".
Rather it's a reflection of writers / reporters looking for a story line or eager to "notch up" another scalp. Happens all the time, especially in very public jobs.
Is it a "good look" - certainly not but winning will make this all disappear so the writers can concentrate on writing "Tommy Cutlets" type puff pieces.
Or should only half the coaches who aren't improving their units go, so the optics aren't bad?
Somehow getting rid of underperforming players is a necessity but getting rid of underperforming coaches is abhorent.
I do not know if Daboll is Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. But he gave his initial hirings two years to step up. Those that were let go did not meet expectations. That is not a bad thing people. It takes time to learn to be HC. There is a learning curve.
This is what we do know:
1) STs played poorly most of the year and most people here wanted McGaughey's head.
2) The oline did not develop one player in two years, in fact many regressed
3) OLB play was spotty and as many here pointed out Thibodeaux never developed secondary or tertiary moves. When he did get on the field Ojulari looked slow. OLB repeatedly failed to hold the edge.
4) The DC apparently took to the media and undercut the HC for reasons only known to them and staff. Despite adding A'Shawn and Nacho the run defense was awful. They had CBs playing 10 yards off on 3rd and 3s. They played soft zone on 3rd and long.
As far as Kafka, he designs what look like great plays. But he seems to call strange plays at times. He sometimes seems to not have a feel for the game. I am not sure that Daboll took over calling plays as shots of Kafka in the both show him calling the play. Perhaps Daboll overrode him on some, IDK.
But, IMHO, it is not a bad thing to change the coaching staff in areas that were downright terrible. In fact, it is something he had better do. I also believe that Schoen had his hand in letting Johnson and the Wilkins brothers go.
So the first 3 dismissals were performance related but Wink was not. I’m also very skeptical Kafka will be fired. I dont believe BBIers have the knowledge to assess Kafka and so should stop expressing an opinion.
So the first 3 dismissals were performance related but Wink was not. I’m also very skeptical Kafka will be fired. I dont believe BBIers have the knowledge to assess Kafka and so should stop expressing an opinion.
Wink had some good games, yes. In reality they end up 27th in points and 25th(?) in yards per game. I wasn't trying to be biased at all - I like Wink. I saw far to many games with them so far off the WRs on 3rd and short that a completion for 1st down was a given. The Jets game was plain stupidity.
Wink was given a majority of the new resources last off season, IMV. Run defense did not improve. Yards per game did not improve. Yes, the offense had far too many 3 and outs. But the defense had far too many 12 play drives given up, many of which had several 3rd and longs that were not defended against.
We crapped on Patrick Graham for shoddy defense, should Wink escape scrutiny?
Is this actually true, or is this another time when BBI is embracing a conspiracy theory?
Take away from this soap opera what you will, we should all agree that the pugnacious Daboll needs to be better. They got off to a 7-2 start last season. Since then, 8-16-1. They need to come out with a good start next season or it will be his last. This offseason hasn't exactly gotten off to a model start, and if this was the Cowboys, Jets, Eagles or Washington, you'd all be pointing fingers and laughing.
Daboll wanted to hire Ken Dorsey. Ken Dorsey was blocked by the Bills.
Daboll was going to keep Patrick Graham, he left for Las Vegas.
He then had to pivot and hire the two best guys he thought would fit, Kafka and Martindale.
Plenty of HC's have had a lot of turmoil to deal with and responded moving forward with favorable results. BD has his chance and I hope it works out. If not, it is time to move on.
By the way: Who is "everyone" ? On it's surface that's a lot of people, and Jordan uses this like it actually means something. If you really parse it out, it's implied meaning is that: "everyone, who you would think knows anything, (wink, wink, nudge, nudge," which is really not a source at all.
Is he making a lateral move? Unlikely
Is he getting a HC job -- also seems unlikely right now
Is he leaving for a college job? I don't think that's out of the question, but I also don't see it.
Raanan has covered the Giants for a long time. If he's reporting something, you can be pretty sure he's not making it up.
In any case, Kafka leaving is hardly a tragedy. And Wink leaving might be a blessing.
Jordan's "sources" are even more obvious than Pat Leonard's. He's been defending not only Wink, but Drew fucking Wilkins for months now, and his Kafka rumors are just an extension of his Wink narrative because it's the only way left for him to continue to smear Daboll.
Raanan has covered the Giants for a long time. If he's reporting something, you can be pretty sure he's not making it up.
You seem gullible
The dysfunction does not appear to be just between the lines and that is a problem that must be fixed or this regime will meet the same fate as the last one.
The dysfunction does not appear to be just between the lines and that is a problem that must be fixed or this regime will meet the same fate as the last one.
Disfunction according to Pat Leonard 😂😂😂
Do you think the special teams coach should have been retained?
How about our O-line coach?
So replacing coaches who were not doing a good job is now classified as disfunction?
Amazing that anyone here….based on Leonard’s track record literally gives him any credence
The guy was literally thrown off the Rangers beat for making stuff up
Sheesh
The dysfunction does not appear to be just between the lines and that is a problem that must be fixed or this regime will meet the same fate as the last one.
We lost one to incompetence (McGaughey) and one to ego and cronyism (Wink). If we lose a third (Kafka), it will be to a HC position, which is something that can happen with any coordinator. Zero have been lost due to dysfunction.
Daboll wanted to hire Ken Dorsey. Ken Dorsey was blocked by the Bills.
Daboll was going to keep Patrick Graham, he left for Las Vegas.
He then had to pivot and hire the two best guys he thought would fit, Kafka and Martindale.
The only one that we know he hired is Bobby Johnson.
McGaughey was a holdover. The Wilkins brothers were Wink hires. Wink himself had interviewed with the Giants two years earlier for HC, and might have been a collaborative choice from the organization after getting spurned by Graham. The fact that Wink seemed to believe that he reported directly to ownership and owed no deference to Daboll at least suggests the possibility that Mara held some influence in hiring Wink, IMO.
Reddit/Giants - ( New Window )
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who haven't worked out? Does Daboll take any responsibility? Where was he?
The only one that we know he hired is Bobby Johnson.
McGaughey was a holdover. The Wilkins brothers were Wink hires. Wink himself had interviewed with the Giants two years earlier for HC, and might have been a collaborative choice from the organization after getting spurned by Graham. The fact that Wink seemed to believe that he reported directly to ownership and owed no deference to Daboll at least suggests the possibility that Mara held some influence in hiring Wink, IMO.
He doesn't get a pass for McGaughey as a holdover. Retaining him (with or without considering alternatives) is functionally the same thing as hiring him.
It's a very fair point, and I remember at the time being puzzled as to why Daboll would want to keep two of the coordinators from Judge's staff (since Graham was the initial choice for DC, reportedly).
But I also have questions about Daboll's autonomy with the staff. I do believe that Wink was somewhat thrust upon him from above (although this has very little supporting evidence and is rooted primarily in my circumstantial interpretation of Wink's behavior, so it's purely my opinion), which makes me wonder if McGaughey might have been as well.
I'm not certain if Daboll was actually given the reins to filling the entire coaching staff, or if he was only really in charge of the offensive staff. The fracture between Wink and Daboll is honestly what led me to this opinion, and then retrospectively considering the initial attempt to retain both McGaughey and Graham reinforced it.
That's admittedly a very pro-Daboll view, and I am aware of my own bias in seeing it this way. Mainly, I don't want to accept the possibility that the Giants have shit the bed with their HC choice for the fourth consecutive time. I have enough fatigue regarding this franchise as it is. I need to hold out hope that Schoen and Daboll can be part of the solution. And my greatest fear is that Mara will use a failure with Schoen/Daboll as confirmation that his cronyism is no worse than seeking outside expertise for the franchise leadership.
Name any successful coach who hasn’t had to fire a coordinator at some point in their career?
That’s one heck of a bar you are setting
Correct. The only one who keeps saying it is Raanan, who randomly has also been VERY pro-Wink (and pro-Wilkins). Then Bobby Skinner and Justin Penik keep repeating it (because Jordan is friendly with them), and it starts to feel like it's coming from multiple reports.
But it's really only Jordan. And his source is Drew Wilkins.
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and two of them to dysfunction, it's bad for Daboll and Schoen. That hasn't happened yet but damn, there's a lot of smoke this season. You can shoot the messenger if you want, but that kind of denialism doesn't really help in the end.
The dysfunction does not appear to be just between the lines and that is a problem that must be fixed or this regime will meet the same fate as the last one.
We lost one to incompetence (McGaughey) and one to ego and cronyism (Wink). If we lose a third (Kafka), it will be to a HC position, which is something that can happen with any coordinator. Zero have been lost due to dysfunction.
If Kafka goes for a HC job, ok that's fair. If he leaves for a lateral move, its totally different. But we're really putting our heads in the sand if we are pretending that this much smoke has no fire behind it. Obviously Wink is gone from dysfunction. Pretty silly to call it anything else. Daboll hired these guys and now two years later, looks like they'll all be gone. You can say that the problems lie with the guys who are leaking to the press but Daboll brought those guys in and it sure as hell doesn't seem like he's blameless in the shit that's getting leaked to the beat writers.
Regardless of what's really true behind the scenes, he's only gonna get one more chance to hire coordinators and if he doesn't get it right, he'll be gone. Poor on field performance and this bullshit in the offseason is how he'll become an OC again.
Oh well.
if daboll decides to call plays, kafka would look to move to a lateral move with playcalling duties.
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as far as I can tell, no other reporter that covers the team has said anything about Kafka being out.
Correct. The only one who keeps saying it is Raanan, who randomly has also been VERY pro-Wink (and pro-Wilkins). Then Bobby Skinner and Justin Penik keep repeating it (because Jordan is friendly with them), and it starts to feel like it's coming from multiple reports.
But it's really only Jordan. And his source is Drew Wilkins.
I guess Puerto Rican does not count as a Minority in the NFL (since there are so many Puerto Rican players and coaches).
Mike McDaniel was considered a minority hire for the Dolphins (49ers got picks)
I would have been happy if Wink was fired after the Miami game. Putting Hawkins in press coverage, with no help, on the field side against Tyreek Hill is a special kind of either incompetence or insubordination. I think Wink might be the new Rob Ryan. I haven't forgotten that John Harbaugh thought his team would be better without Wink. Harbaugh was right.
As far as Kafka goes, IMO he has outlived his usefulness. I thought it was very smart to pull a coach from Andy Reid and try to incorporate some of what Reid does on offense into Daboll's offense. I watched Daboll as an OC and play caller in Buffalo. While that's not the same level of investment for me as watching the Giants play caller, I saw enough from Daboll to know he wants to run a pass happy offense. Sign me up. I'd rather have Daboll calling the plays and I think he should insist on doing it with his job on the line. If Kafka doesn't like it he can leave.
Special Teams Coordinator = 2
Tom Quinn 2007-2017. Thomas McGaughey 2018-2023.
Head Coaches 2007-2023 = 5
General Managers 2007-2023 = 3
Owners 2007-2023 = 1
The Owners of the NY Giants hired 3 General Managers and 5 Head Coaches in the past decade but they've only had 2 special teams coaches since 2007? Anyone else find that odd? I don't follow other teams coaching staffs closely enough to know if it's customary for some ST coordinators to remain on staff for the same organization through 3 coaching changes. I'm going to guess it's not.
Hopefully whoever Daboll hires as ST coordinator has worked with him before and knows what he's getting into and as a bonus the STC won't be working directly for ownership anymore.
I'm rooting for him. I hope Daboll can find his guys and be the HC to turn things around in 2024 for the Giants. If not I think we will have to watch the Giants start the process over again.