"Will he learn from his mistake?"
By Dan Duggan
Jan 18, 2024
The Athletic
Excerpt:
Explaining the failed signing of wide receiver Parris Campbell, Schoen revealed his approach to the second offseason of the New York Giants’ rebuild. "We were trying to add some weapons,” Schoen said. “You do a deal with (quarterback) Daniel (Jones), and you see how it was structured, so you try to expedite the process and give him a chance to succeed.”
Schoen has preached patience in almost every other news conference since taking over as GM two years ago. But his actions last offseason made it clear he had hit the accelerator on the deliberate rebuild he promised. His comments last Monday confirmed the altered approach.
************************************************************************************************************************
My guess is that within the next two years Joe Schoen will churn this roster over more so than he did in his first two years, and if you believe in the term "tear down," then I think you will see a major one starting quite soon.
Seriously. Paris Campbell is accelerating the process? He was worth the gamble. It didn't work out.
2. Daboll is a stone wall in press conferences; Schoen is more forthright and you can actually read between the lines with him and learn stuff.
3. I think the basic argument is true here--the Giants probably pivoted from a longer-term rebuild with Jones. The costs of that were probably Parris Campbell (negligible), Darren Waller (more significant), and the Jones contract itself (going to be painful for the next year).
My take is: if you really want to know if the Giants still believe in Jones, the answer will come based on whether or not they restructure his deal to free up space. If they do, they still believe; if they don't, he's on the way out.
Campbell was not used appropriately either. He's not overly quick, however he is fast. I would have liked to see a more vertical game with him but with Josh Ezeudu in at LT during this team and Jones getting demolished behind the haphazard line - it really had no chance of ever materializing.
That's a good question I cannot answer. Maybe Joe Schoen and John Mara can come to some understanding that -- the need to take a step backwards -- is the quickest way to go forward.
In any event, my bet is that (assuming his knee is OK) Daniel Jones will get the majority of snaps in 2024 while Bo Nix or some other high QB draftee sits and learns for a season. And then the Giants part ways with Daniel Jones in 2025, unless he takes them deep into the playoffs with a boffo season. In which case, Bo Nix will sit for two seasons.
But how many twelve months ago would have not hung him for doing the above?
Feels like for ten years, every offseason we look back and say we should have just bit the bullet and did an honest rebuild. And we never really have, fully. It’s always a half as tear down.
If this team ever does get a competent offensive line again, they'd better keep adding serious depth every offseason, because one thing we have learned is that a great line can go bad very quickly.
He overachieved in 2022.
He underachieved in 2023 and overvalued what 2022 was.
He needs to have a strong offseason this year and 2024 needs to end with the arrow clearly pointing up. Maybe that's a competitive 8-9 season. 2025 then truly becomes the make or break year.
It was a bit disconcerting to see Joe say he might have looked at the ‘22 through ‘rose colored glasses’.
It was a bad mistake, but what matters now is that you recognize the mistake and work to correct it, not double down on it. Don't chase your losses, Joe.
Over John Mara's dead body!
I don't think a full teardown is coming because what are you tearing down? We have oline pieces that will not be here but they are not being shed to move on, the bulk of them have never been so basically we are just bringing in guys as others just leave.
Jones and Barkley are the BIG teardowns- Barkley being let go (ie not re-signed) is step one and then getting our QB that we WILL be building around is step two. I have no doubt Jones will probably be the starter in 2024 (probably) but I have no doubt Schoen and Daboll want their own guy.
We'll have a decent idea of which way the wind is blowing soon enough.
Ballard, Robinson, and Hyatt are better long term prospects. The Giants would have been much better off focusing on developing those guys.
The problem isn't Paris Campbell or whoever, its that Schoen decided to sacrifice cap space, and flexibility for the future to try to jump start the winning now. Thats not something you should do in the beginning of a rebuild, and its the kind of thing we rightfully criticized Gettleman for.
In other words, Jones is a 160 million dollar back-up QB at best.
Jones is the reason why getting quality WR's will mean absolutely nothing to the advancement of this team, because he won't be able to throw the ball to them.
Jones is a disaster, and thanks to the moronic decision to extend his contract and pay him the salary of an elite QB, the team's rebuild is a massive failure.
We'll have a decent idea of which way the wind is blowing soon enough.
He inched closer to a crippling one. Which are few and far between in the NFL anyway.
And yes, Schoen now has to figure a way out of this mess, quickly.
He overachieved in 2022.
He underachieved in 2023 and overvalued what 2022 was.
He needs to have a strong offseason this year and 2024 needs to end with the arrow clearly pointing up. Maybe that's a competitive 8-9 season. 2025 then truly becomes the make or break year.
One problem... if he over-achieved in Year One, and under-achieved in Year 2, then Joe Schoen is more-or-less back to Square One. And Square One represents the end of the 2021 Season with both Gettleman and Judge heading out the door.
This is the same behavior Gettleman displayed after - wait for it - a 6-10 season simply because the Giants were in the division hunt on the last weekend. The same behavior Jerry Reese exhibited after McAdoo’s 11-win season in 2016. 3 different HC’s, 3 different GM’s, what is the common thread?
And to all of the Mara fanboys, I’m not necessarily suggesting that Mara is telling his GM’s what to do, but he has regularly ignored foundational problems masked by “winning” seasons (how 6-10 counts, I have no idea). How much of Schoen’s buying spree was spurred on by Mara insisting the Giants were ready to take the next step? We’ll never know, but we’ve had 3 different regimes make the same mistake in an 8 year period. Either they’re hiring the wrong people or the problem is in the owner’s suite.
If you are Joe Schoen, how do you say "Or...we could just let Jones and Barkley go because this year was Daboll squeezing all the juice he could out of the lemon, and we still need to stay on track with a more foundational rebuild?"
I don't believe Mara told Schoen what to do with the Jones contract. But you can't convince me the dynamic last season was not something just like this. It aligns with everything we have heard publicly from Mara and explains the "we love you...for right now" contract they gave to Jones.
Was waiting for you to chime in, you could have written this article. Sometimes its not fun admitting someone was right but you were spot on with this.
The Jones mistake was substantial and puts this regime at a disadvantage. Ultimately I see their path to longevity (at least 2 years) being a 1st round QB and fortifying the OL in a major way.
The issue as Christian pointed in a thread the other day is - Schoen has already used significant draft capital trying to do so. Do you keep using 2-4 round picks on OL? In theory you eventually figure it out, but every pick that missed was a chance at filling other holes on the roster. And right now that roster still resembles Sargento swiss cheese.
Still, this regime needs to show improvement & a plan of action next year. You do that by having a rookie QB show flashes and building up the OL. If you hit on those moves and win 7-9 games, the arrow will be pointing up.
We all think about job security whether we admit or not. Is the organization gonna go all in on a rookie qb in year 4 of this regime? Doesn’t make sense for either party. Year 4 they’ll need to be a playoff team and from Mara’s perspective - I may be getting rid of these guys at the end of the year, I’d rather let a new regime pick the QB.
As you can tell, I’m an overthinker…..but my logic deduces the Giants are going QB no matter what round 1. The issue is I see 3 QB’s off the board by their pick. I believe one of Daniels or Nix (most likely Nix) will be there and at the end of the day I’m not sure if they can afford to let their guy go and play the game of trying to trade back up.
This regime is not in a desirable position and unfortunately it feels like the chips are stacked against them a bit.
The questionable moves to me so far are:
1.) Jones - should have either picked up the 5th year option the year before or tagged him last offseason
2.) Barkley - should have paid the extra reported $1 million to get him inked to a three year deal so they could tag Jones
3.) Feliciano - he would have been our best guard this season and would have been relatively cheap
4.) Waller - the hamstring injuries continued. May have been better to keep the picks and the cap space. We’ll see what they decide this offseason with him.
I’m not going to list Neal because he was hurt this season and I also blame a lot of the line’s struggles on coaching. When you look at the play of Feliciano, and even Hernandez it shows you how bad the coaching was here.
But how many twelve months ago would have not hung him for doing the above?
Feels like for ten years, every offseason we look back and say we should have just bit the bullet and did an honest rebuild. And we never really have, fully. It’s always a half as tear down.
I agree. The “tear down” should have happened after the butt rape from the Eagles last January. Hard to do after making the playoffs
Quote:
I warned about fool's gold after the playoff win, and the machine rolled right on down Mistake Mountain.
Was waiting for you to chime in, you could have written this article. Sometimes its not fun admitting someone was right but you were spot on with this.
The Jones mistake was substantial and puts this regime at a disadvantage. Ultimately I see their path to longevity (at least 2 years) being a 1st round QB and fortifying the OL in a major way.
The issue as Christian pointed in a thread the other day is - Schoen has already used significant draft capital trying to do so. Do you keep using 2-4 round picks on OL? In theory you eventually figure it out, but every pick that missed was a chance at filling other holes on the roster. And right now that roster still resembles Sargento swiss cheese.
Still, this regime needs to show improvement & a plan of action next year. You do that by having a rookie QB show flashes and building up the OL. If you hit on those moves and win 7-9 games, the arrow will be pointing up.
We all think about job security whether we admit or not. Is the organization gonna go all in on a rookie qb in year 4 of this regime? Doesn’t make sense for either party. Year 4 they’ll need to be a playoff team and from Mara’s perspective - I may be getting rid of these guys at the end of the year, I’d rather let a new regime pick the QB.
As you can tell, I’m an overthinker…..but my logic deduces the Giants are going QB no matter what round 1. The issue is I see 3 QB’s off the board by their pick. I believe one of Daniels or Nix (most likely Nix) will be there and at the end of the day I’m not sure if they can afford to let their guy go and play the game of trying to trade back up.
This regime is not in a desirable position and unfortunately it feels like the chips are stacked against them a bit.
A rookie QB also likely buys Daboll and Schoen at least two more seasons. If they go out with Jones next year and put up less than 9 or 10 wins we are looking at another wave of coaching changes.
Were you guys fooled by the Eagles collapse? How about Dallas getting their asses handed to them at home by GB?
What was the option at QB after the season if not signing Jones? Hind sight is always easy.
If you are Joe Schoen, how do you say "Or...we could just let Jones and Barkley go because this year was Daboll squeezing all the juice he could out of the lemon, and we still need to stay on track with a more foundational rebuild?"
I don't believe Mara told Schoen what to do with the Jones contract. But you can't convince me the dynamic last season was not something just like this. It aligns with everything we have heard publicly from Mara and explains the "we love you...for right now" contract they gave to Jones.
It was very dangerous to go into 2022 with Jones & Barkley on expiring contracts. Schoen never got a clean slate. He had two "faces of the franchise" each drafted in the top 10 with numerous people still in the building who were very high on each player. This was not Adam Peters going to WSH. On the day of Schoen's presser, we had Mara talking about how much the team has screwed Jones up.
This doesn't get mentioned enough, but Schoen not having a high end QB level prospect within the top 10 in 2022 made his job that much harder. Knowing they were declining his option, he would have taken a QB there.
Once Daboll had the year he had and won a playoff game, they were in trouble. Too many people in the building felt vindicated in their decisions imo.
It would have been better to trade Jones & Barkley prior to 2022 and go through the lumps in 2022. Then, they'd be in position for Stroud/Young/Richardson in 2023.
It didn't work. Lots of signings don't work out.
It was a low risk signing.
I think he drank the Kool Aid after last season. But I do think he recognizes that, which is comforting to me. He isn’t delusional.
This year speaks more to the dysfunction of Daboll’s preparation and coaching staff more than personnel decisions IMO.
I think he caved into an exuberant John Mara who saw in the Minnesota win exactly what he wanted to see, and simply dismissed the 2-5-1 finish to the regular season and the lopsided beatdown by the Eagles.
John Mara loves the Giants probably more than anything on earth except his own family, but my guess is his excitement and joy at the playoff win took a lot of options off the table for Schoen, who needed to be a lot more realistic about the season.
The overarching issue is will ownership sign off on drafting a QB in round one ten months after deciding to give Jones his contract. Will they be able to trade up for one, given the cost and how it will render their job of filling other holes even more difficult. Giants put themselves in a brutal spot, with a recent history suggesting they won't be able to dig out.
Who in the building stands up and turns this ship in the correct direction is a huge, desperate question. The 2023 Giants were an exercise in futility.
Fix the o-line and the team should be able to compete regardless of who the QB is. If they fix the line AND get the QB right, it should be a playoff team for sure.
At this time, they can’t count on Jones. They must draft a QB to have the option.
Agree with this. Schoen made a significant commitment to Daniel Jones and sought to enhance his immediate return on that investment with Campbell. That's the kind of move I would expect him to make. I understand the need to fill column space but this is a reach.
I also get the impression that guys like Leonard and Raanan may be too inclined to serve as willing tools for those who are seeking to promote an agenda in exchange for page views. The need to generate controversy to enhance readership has always been prevalent going back to the newsprint days. Most of us probably realize that it comes with the territory, but I'd like to think consumers are more discerning now.
I like Duggan as well but stuff like this gives me pause. Now that the NYT purchase of The Athletic has had a chance to percolate, I wonder if he isn't under increasing pressure to produce additional eyeballs.
The overarching issue is will ownership sign off on drafting a QB in round one ten months after deciding to give Jones his contract. Will they be able to trade up for one, given the cost and how it will render their job of filling other holes even more difficult. Giants put themselves in a brutal spot, with a recent history suggesting they won't be able to dig out.
Who in the building stands up and turns this ship in the correct direction is a huge, desperate question. The 2023 Giants were an exercise in futility.
The more fundamental question is, does the front office now view 2022 as fool's gold, or do they believe 2022 is who this team is, and 2023 was an unfortunate set back due to injuries?
If Mara still views 2022 like some on this forum do - a weird blip on an upward trajectory - we will likely see them try to build up around Jones.
Fix the o-line and the team should be able to compete regardless of who the QB is. If they fix the line AND get the QB right, it should be a playoff team for sure.
At this time, they can’t count on Jones. They must draft a QB to have the option.
If they shared the view that a good Oline means it doesn't matter who the QB is, then Jones would have never gotten the contract he did.
The Giants believe who the QB is matters a great deal.
The overarching issue is will ownership sign off on drafting a QB in round one ten months after deciding to give Jones his contract. Will they be able to trade up for one, given the cost and how it will render their job of filling other holes even more difficult. Giants put themselves in a brutal spot, with a recent history suggesting they won't be able to dig out.
Who in the building stands up and turns this ship in the correct direction is a huge, desperate question. The 2023 Giants were an exercise in futility.
I think it will be telling how Schoen handles Saquon. If we don't even extend a competitive offer and he leaves for a modest deal, I think it will be a good sign that he's truly in charge and is looking to rebuild. The Jones deal structure was also a tell and 2023 could not have gone worse for Jones. If they aren't going to enact the escape plan he had built into the deal coming off a horrific 2023 (His play and injuries), what was the point in structuring it that way at all?
I think he caved into an exuberant John Mara who saw in the Minnesota win exactly what he wanted to see, and simply dismissed the 2-5-1 finish to the regular season and the lopsided beatdown by the Eagles.
John Mara loves the Giants probably more than anything on earth except his own family, but my guess is his excitement and joy at the playoff win took a lot of options off the table for Schoen, who needed to be a lot more realistic about the season.
Excitement, joy, and revenue from full stadiums.
When the boss is on a 'path' it's pretty difficult to challenge, even privately.
It's even more difficult to level with the Boss who thinks his family history has somehow created a unique football prodigy gene across the bloodline. Tough, tough job for any GM, but they go nowhere unless he and head coach can do a better job of influencing.
Good posts here; the essence of the problem.
Tierney coaching Penix and Nix is really good development at the Senior Bowl.
Tierney coaching Penix and Nix is really good development at the Senior Bowl.
Agree and the more and more I've been studying Nix, he looks like he could be their "type". Especially Daboll. He has some fire in him in is interviews. Can move and obviously has the production.
In other words, Jones is a 160 million dollar back-up QB at best.
Jones is the reason why getting quality WR's will mean absolutely nothing to the advancement of this team, because he won't be able to throw the ball to them.
Jones is a disaster, and thanks to the moronic decision to extend his contract and pay him the salary of an elite QB, the team's rebuild is a massive failure.
You miss the point. It all revolves around the offensive line. If you can't block, you can't win, regardless of the QB. And, at the beginnning of the year with Thomas hurt, there were jail breaks half the time - the worst OL in the league by far. No NFL QB could have been consistently accurate, not stared down receivers, not missed open receivers, etc. Not saying Jones is great, but NOBODY could have played well with what he had as an offenive line - NOBODY. A new QB will not make a difference until the OL gets fixed.
I tend to agree with Mike in Ohio, it's the most logical explanation of the dynamic at play, to me. Not so much meddling as it is bumbling and influencing.
If this were Gettleman I’d be more worried. I think Schoen is bright enough to acknowledge his mistakes and turn them into learning moments. But we will see
Quote:
Yes, but they kinda did it to themselves. That's basically what Schoen's comment about rose-colored glasses refers to. They put too much weight on the playoff win, and forgot about all the other more obvious signs the team was running on a remedial offense with virtually no chance versus good or very good football teams.
The overarching issue is will ownership sign off on drafting a QB in round one ten months after deciding to give Jones his contract. Will they be able to trade up for one, given the cost and how it will render their job of filling other holes even more difficult. Giants put themselves in a brutal spot, with a recent history suggesting they won't be able to dig out.
Who in the building stands up and turns this ship in the correct direction is a huge, desperate question. The 2023 Giants were an exercise in futility.
The more fundamental question is, does the front office now view 2022 as fool's gold, or do they believe 2022 is who this team is, and 2023 was an unfortunate set back due to injuries?
If Mara still views 2022 like some on this forum do - a weird blip on an upward trajectory - we will likely see them try to build up around Jones.
Yep, and given their tendency to run the team much like a fan would, my confidence in them is LOW right now.
Quote:
This team will never advance as long as Jones is supposed to be their top QB. Jones lacks accuracy in his throwing abilities, he gives away who his target is before each snap, so he is easy to read from the opponents side. His best weapon is his ability to scramble and run with the ball for first downs, yet after his ACL injury that tactic will not be used.
In other words, Jones is a 160 million dollar back-up QB at best.
Jones is the reason why getting quality WR's will mean absolutely nothing to the advancement of this team, because he won't be able to throw the ball to them.
Jones is a disaster, and thanks to the moronic decision to extend his contract and pay him the salary of an elite QB, the team's rebuild is a massive failure.
You miss the point. It all revolves around the offensive line. If you can't block, you can't win, regardless of the QB. And, at the beginnning of the year with Thomas hurt, there were jail breaks half the time - the worst OL in the league by far. No NFL QB could have been consistently accurate, not stared down receivers, not missed open receivers, etc. Not saying Jones is great, but NOBODY could have played well with what he had as an offenive line - NOBODY. A new QB will not make a difference until the OL gets fixed.
You're allowed to solve more than one problem at once. Good teams look to improve all areas of their roster at all times, they're never "set" at any position. The Patriots had Tom Brady, a Super Bowl winning QB in 2001, and during his career drafted the following QBs
2002 - Rohan Davey (4th)
2003 - Kliff Kingsbury (5th)
2005 - Matt Cassel (7th)
2008 - Kevin O'Connell (3rd)
2010 - Zac Robinson (7th)
2011 - Ryan Mallett (3rd)
2014 - Jimmy Garoppolo (2nd)
2016 - Jacoby Brissett (3rd)
2018 - Danny Etling (7th)
2019 - Jarrett Stidham (3rd)
Not once did the Patriots go more than 3 years without drafting a QB during TOM FUCKING BRADY'S career.
The Giants have not drafted a single QB in four drafts since they took Jones.
Were you guys fooled by the Eagles collapse? How about Dallas getting their asses handed to them at home by GB?
What was the option at QB after the season if not signing Jones? Hind sight is always easy.
Jones ran basic and conservative concepts in 2022. Then they paid him like an excellent starter. And they opened up the offense in '23 and he failed miserably.
Maybe next time pay the QB based on what he has proven he can do, and not based on faith and projections
Quote:
In comment 16370727 Fishmanjim57 said:
Quote:
This team will never advance as long as Jones is supposed to be their top QB. Jones lacks accuracy in his throwing abilities, he gives away who his target is before each snap, so he is easy to read from the opponents side. His best weapon is his ability to scramble and run with the ball for first downs, yet after his ACL injury that tactic will not be used.
In other words, Jones is a 160 million dollar back-up QB at best.
Jones is the reason why getting quality WR's will mean absolutely nothing to the advancement of this team, because he won't be able to throw the ball to them.
Jones is a disaster, and thanks to the moronic decision to extend his contract and pay him the salary of an elite QB, the team's rebuild is a massive failure.
You miss the point. It all revolves around the offensive line. If you can't block, you can't win, regardless of the QB. And, at the beginnning of the year with Thomas hurt, there were jail breaks half the time - the worst OL in the league by far. No NFL QB could have been consistently accurate, not stared down receivers, not missed open receivers, etc. Not saying Jones is great, but NOBODY could have played well with what he had as an offenive line - NOBODY. A new QB will not make a difference until the OL gets fixed.
You're allowed to solve more than one problem at once. Good teams look to improve all areas of their roster at all times, they're never "set" at any position. The Patriots had Tom Brady, a Super Bowl winning QB in 2001, and during his career drafted the following QBs
2002 - Rohan Davey (4th)
2003 - Kliff Kingsbury (5th)
2005 - Matt Cassel (7th)
2008 - Kevin O'Connell (3rd)
2010 - Zac Robinson (7th)
2011 - Ryan Mallett (3rd)
2014 - Jimmy Garoppolo (2nd)
2016 - Jacoby Brissett (3rd)
2018 - Danny Etling (7th)
2019 - Jarrett Stidham (3rd)
Not once did the Patriots go more than 3 years without drafting a QB during TOM FUCKING BRADY'S career.
The Giants have not drafted a single QB in four drafts since they took Jones.
And at most 3/10 ended up being worth it (Cassel, Jimmy G, Brissett) so you had 7/10 end up as being wasted picks. They would have been better off with a Tommy DeVito as a UDFA and using the pick somewhere else.
Would Barkley still be on the team??
Mara doesn't call the shots but he has an outsized presence which affects the decisions of the GM's.
3 GM's, 5 coaches, and we have the same issues. Gm's come in trying to turn the ship around while keeping Mara's chosen few onboard. It just doesn't work.
You're allowed to solve more than one problem at once. Good teams look to improve all areas of their roster at all times, they're never "set" at any position. The Patriots had Tom Brady, a Super Bowl winning QB in 2001, and during his career drafted the following QBs
2002 - Rohan Davey (4th)
2003 - Kliff Kingsbury (5th)
2005 - Matt Cassel (7th)
2008 - Kevin O'Connell (3rd)
2010 - Zac Robinson (7th)
2011 - Ryan Mallett (3rd)
2014 - Jimmy Garoppolo (2nd)
2016 - Jacoby Brissett (3rd)
2018 - Danny Etling (7th)
2019 - Jarrett Stidham (3rd)
Not once did the Patriots go more than 3 years without drafting a QB during TOM FUCKING BRADY'S career.
The Giants have not drafted a single QB in four drafts since they took Jones.
I've made the same point in the past. It's bizarre that such an unaccompllshed and clearly flawed quarterback was given no competition in 5 years. This speaks to the dysfunction more than any other fact.
Not once did the Patriots go more than 3 years without drafting a QB during TOM FUCKING BRADY'S career.
The Giants have not drafted a single QB in four drafts since they took Jones.
And at most 3/10 ended up being worth it (Cassel, Jimmy G, Brissett) so you had 7/10 end up as being wasted picks. They would have been better off with a Tommy DeVito as a UDFA and using the pick somewhere else.
How many day 2-3 picks end up being "wasted" anyway?
Quote:
I like Duggan but I think he's overreacting to that one single word in Schoen's press conference.
Agree with this. Schoen made a significant commitment to Daniel Jones and sought to enhance his immediate return on that investment with Campbell. That's the kind of move I would expect him to make. I understand the need to fill column space but this is a reach.
I also get the impression that guys like Leonard and Raanan may be too inclined to serve as willing tools for those who are seeking to promote an agenda in exchange for page views. The need to generate controversy to enhance readership has always been prevalent going back to the newsprint days. Most of us probably realize that it comes with the territory, but I'd like to think consumers are more discerning now.
I like Duggan as well but stuff like this gives me pause. Now that the NYT purchase of The Athletic has had a chance to percolate, I wonder if he isn't under increasing pressure to produce additional eyeballs.
Schoen’s attempt at immediate ROI wasn’t Campbell, it was Waller. Campbell was the kind of move teams make all the time, a low-risk signing where you hope a change of scenery will spur improvement. Waller involved giving up picks, taking on money, and extending the pain for immediate cap relief.
Even if Schoen didn’t want to mention Jones, the Waller trade was a much better example than signing Campbell for peanuts.
Wrong way to look at it imho. He was insurance against the room being decimated yet again with injuries and Robinson coming off an ACL. Just because you have no claims doesn't mean the insurance policy was a poor choice.
Blame pro personnel for an overpay, perhaps, but who was your option last offseason?
I agree. I actually wanted him in the draft. He had that "it" factor and was just cocky enough for NY
It was a bit disconcerting to see Joe say he might have looked at the ‘22 through ‘rose colored glasses’.
You mean like damn near everyone here did, up until the events of the first offensive series of the year vs Dallas? IIRC, a lot of us here though we could not only be competitive but also win that game....all up until the end of that first series. Season was over after that.
Quote:
I read that article yesterday.
It was a bit disconcerting to see Joe say he might have looked at the ‘22 through ‘rose colored glasses’.
You mean like damn near everyone here did, up until the events of the first offensive series of the year vs Dallas? IIRC, a lot of us here though we could not only be competitive but also win that game....all up until the end of that first series. Season was over after that.
Guilty.
Quote:
I read that article yesterday.
It was a bit disconcerting to see Joe say he might have looked at the ‘22 through ‘rose colored glasses’.
You mean like damn near everyone here did, up until the events of the first offensive series of the year vs Dallas? IIRC, a lot of us here though we could not only be competitive but also win that game....all up until the end of that first series. Season was over after that.
First of all, I’m going to call BS on “damn near everyone” here feeling we were contenders. There were a number of us calling for pumping the breaks. I don’t know how anyone could look at 2022, with most of the wins being within one score, and say that team was a SB contender.
Secondly, we’re fans, we’re allowed, even expected, to be irrational. It’s a problem if the front office falls for it too.
They were bidding against themselves, thanks to the fact that they painted themselves into a corner by announcing to the entire universe that they wanted to sign Jones and franchise Barkley.
Schoen attempted to improve upon a team that needed improving. His failure was that the improvement didn't happen.
Jones is the poster child for the failure. Very, very few people (even in the anti-Jones crowd) thought he would regress so badly. It may have been a mistake in shelling out for a DJ re-sign, but at the time, the mistake was thought to be that he wasn't good enough, NOT that he would shit the bed so hard.
The reality is that any QB at the helm needed more weapons. It would have been a major failure to not attempt to acquire some. How did it work out for the OL taking the approach of developing what they had with only a draft choice for new talent? Not very well. Maybe they'd have been better off switching the roles, with emphasis on the OL, and just rolling the dice on the receiving unit.
Ultimately, the execution flunked. They zigged when they should have zagged here, while zagging when they should have zigged there. Poor evaluations of existing talent, and talent to be brought in. Meet the new Boss. Same as the old Boss.
That is the error in a nutshell.
Now, there is a way to correct that enormous mistake quickly, but that requires focus and managing the inept owner.
Instead, I expect Schoen will either remain committed to Jones as the starter or try some nuanced, thread-the-needle, mental gymnastics non-sense that wastes more time with Jones still on the team but not starting.
If it's the latter, many will run to defend Schoen for trying to play it smart and clever because his hands were tied (of course, he tied his own hands).
If you are Joe Schoen, how do you say "Or...we could just let Jones and Barkley go because this year was Daboll squeezing all the juice he could out of the lemon, and we still need to stay on track with a more foundational rebuild?"
I don't believe Mara told Schoen what to do with the Jones contract. But you can't convince me the dynamic last season was not something just like this. It aligns with everything we have heard publicly from Mara and explains the "we love you...for right now" contract they gave to Jones.
I was going to post something similar, except I think Mara did probably have some conversation with Schoen about the negotiations / franchise tag situation, and made it clear to "get it done."
Here's what I have to say about Joe Schoen and the resigning of Jones. I don't believe Schoen had a true choice when it came to resigning Jones. I believe that in the months prior to the signing, there is no doubt Schoen and Mara had conversations. And if any of you think that Mara didn't communicate the feelings he has expressed about Jones, probably in a more direct way such as, "find a way to get it done," then I don't know what to tell you.
Further, what was the alternative. Do you really think Judge could've sold Mara on a plan like, "we're going to sign Jacoby Brissett, probably stink for for a year while we look for a franchise QB in the draft to bring along?" that this plan would've at all been amenable to Mara? There were no good alternatives in free agency. Carr was the best one, and he's not the long-term answer.
But even if nothing at all was said, something I'm doubtful of, if Schoen let Daniel walk after that season and playoff win, I think Mara would've been livid, and I think Schoen probably sensed that. Moreover, even if Jones had flopped elsewhere, Mara would be wondering what might have been if only he had stayed a Giant.
I don't blame Schoen for signing DJ. I don't even blame him for not using the tag, because that would've prevented him from doing things like signing Okereke. I blame Mara.
He can't help himself.
Fix the o-line and the team should be able to compete regardless of who the QB is. If they fix the line AND get the QB right, it should be a playoff team for sure.
At this time, they can’t count on Jones. They must draft a QB to have the option.
Come on Ivan. You think all we have to do is get the right QB and we'll be like the Texans with Shroud? I will argue that the Texans have quite a young team and are better prepared as an organization than we ever will be.
If he didn't feel confident in challenging Mara, I hope he is now. Then we may have our GM. If he isn't ok challenging Mara, or worse, agrees with Mara, then we will probably be back in the GM market in 2-3 years.
And this is not meant to portray Mara as some malignant idiot running the team. He certainly isn't. His problem is he sees the team - and some players - through an optimistic fan's eyes. He believes Jones and Barkley are vital players because he likes them and wants them to be Giants.
Schoen is not in an easy spot at all, but he should not have expected to be based on the situation he signed up for two years ago.
I don't blame Schoen for signing DJ. I don't even blame him for not using the tag, because that would've prevented him from doing things like signing Okereke. I blame Mara.
So, in your world, you are giving Schoen a total pass on keeping Jones?
JFC.
Quote:
In comment 16370834 Since1965 said:
Quote:
In comment 16370727 Fishmanjim57 said:
Quote:
This team will never advance as long as Jones is supposed to be their top QB. Jones lacks accuracy in his throwing abilities, he gives away who his target is before each snap, so he is easy to read from the opponents side. His best weapon is his ability to scramble and run with the ball for first downs, yet after his ACL injury that tactic will not be used.
In other words, Jones is a 160 million dollar back-up QB at best.
Jones is the reason why getting quality WR's will mean absolutely nothing to the advancement of this team, because he won't be able to throw the ball to them.
Jones is a disaster, and thanks to the moronic decision to extend his contract and pay him the salary of an elite QB, the team's rebuild is a massive failure.
You miss the point. It all revolves around the offensive line. If you can't block, you can't win, regardless of the QB. And, at the beginnning of the year with Thomas hurt, there were jail breaks half the time - the worst OL in the league by far. No NFL QB could have been consistently accurate, not stared down receivers, not missed open receivers, etc. Not saying Jones is great, but NOBODY could have played well with what he had as an offenive line - NOBODY. A new QB will not make a difference until the OL gets fixed.
You're allowed to solve more than one problem at once. Good teams look to improve all areas of their roster at all times, they're never "set" at any position. The Patriots had Tom Brady, a Super Bowl winning QB in 2001, and during his career drafted the following QBs
2002 - Rohan Davey (4th)
2003 - Kliff Kingsbury (5th)
2005 - Matt Cassel (7th)
2008 - Kevin O'Connell (3rd)
2010 - Zac Robinson (7th)
2011 - Ryan Mallett (3rd)
2014 - Jimmy Garoppolo (2nd)
2016 - Jacoby Brissett (3rd)
2018 - Danny Etling (7th)
2019 - Jarrett Stidham (3rd)
Not once did the Patriots go more than 3 years without drafting a QB during TOM FUCKING BRADY'S career.
The Giants have not drafted a single QB in four drafts since they took Jones.
And at most 3/10 ended up being worth it (Cassel, Jimmy G, Brissett) so you had 7/10 end up as being wasted picks. They would have been better off with a Tommy DeVito as a UDFA and using the pick somewhere else.
3/10 isn't too bad. And you miss the more important point anyway about taking swings.
Good post rsjem
This is the same behavior Gettleman displayed after - wait for it - a 6-10 season simply because the Giants were in the division hunt on the last weekend. The same behavior Jerry Reese exhibited after McAdoo’s 11-win season in 2016. 3 different HC’s, 3 different GM’s, what is the common thread?
And to all of the Mara fanboys, I’m not necessarily suggesting that Mara is telling his GM’s what to do, but he has regularly ignored foundational problems masked by “winning” seasons (how 6-10 counts, I have no idea). How much of Schoen’s buying spree was spurred on by Mara insisting the Giants were ready to take the next step? We’ll never know, but we’ve had 3 different regimes make the same mistake in an 8 year period. Either they’re hiring the wrong people or the problem is in the owner’s suite.
Yeah, Mara was the only one sharing 'We're' back sentiments. I remember plenty of media folks saying the same thing along with most here.
The only way the Campbell signing failed to expedite the process is if it cost them someone else who could have made a difference for the next three or four years. Who exactly was that Mr. Duggan? Every GM signs free agents every year that don't work out, just like they draft guys who don't work out.
Did the Campbell signing keep them from drafting a good receiver? No. So how exactly was signing a low cost receiving option in an attempt the help the offense misguided, especially when the team was desperate for receivers. The problem with all this speculation is no one will ever know what this year's offense could have been because of all the injuries. Especially on the O line.
schoen's mistake was exactly what he said though i dont think the expediting was the problem as much as how they did it. he took on big injury risks with campbell/waller and an even bigger gamble on jones while trusting what was a bad offensive line last year to get better via addition by subtraction.
he made bad choices. period.
i dont understand the rush to take away people's responsibilities to what is their job. schoen said the day he did the jones deal "tagging him was a worst case scenario". as an unproven rookie GM he had the freedom to pass on the 5yo option in 2022, why do we think he didnt have the freedom to resign jones to whatever contract he wanted post 2023 when he had been in consideration for exec of the year?
a key reason why that was a worst case scenario was because the extra $10m on this year's cap would have made it harder for him to add waller/campbell. and after all those moves he chose to sign ashawn robinson for roughly the same cap hit as julian love. like i said, just bad choices.
Neither of us knows for sure, but I have never worked for someone who is passionate about their organization who did not make his feelings known on important decisions. I don't expect the Giants are different.
Quote:
I don't blame Schoen for signing DJ. I don't even blame him for not using the tag, because that would've prevented him from doing things like signing Okereke. I blame Mara.
So, in your world, you are giving Schoen a total pass on keeping Jones?
JFC.
I think the only choice he had was extending Jones given the dynamic with Mara and how 2022 went down.
And no, franchise tagging Jones instead of Barkley was only an option to extend the window to extending Jones. If you think this team could've afforded the ~$34M to have Jones on the franchise tag in 2023 you are delusional. They needed the cap space. The difference in the tag with Jones and Barkley was ~$20M in cap space for 2023. That was needed cap space.
Under the circumstances, Schoen gave more money to Jones that I would've preferred, but the upside of that was getting the 2-year out, and to get that probably meant coming up on the money side of the equation. I greatly prefer the 2-year out (which is now only 1 more year).
That deal cost Schoen basically nothing in terms of being able to move on from Jones to his preferred choice at QB. It wasn't there in free agency, and it wasn't there at their pick in the draft, so the soonest they could do something in terms of a pick in the draft was this one, and the deal he made with Jones allowed him to still draft that 1st round QB this draft...or next year. This is a good thing.
Schoen was in a terrible position, and he navigated it the best he could.
If there is a criticism, it's that perhaps not to give DJ the 5th year option was the wrong one. But at the time, it felt right. DJ played just well enough in 2022 to make it look bad in hindsight, which I didn't expect. Had that not happened, DJ is headed to free agency right now.
But even if nothing at all was said, something I'm doubtful of, if Schoen let Daniel walk after that season and playoff win, I think Mara would've been livid, and I think Schoen probably sensed that. Moreover, even if Jones had flopped elsewhere, Mara would be wondering what might have been if only he had stayed a Giant.
I don't blame Schoen for signing DJ. I don't even blame him for not using the tag, because that would've prevented him from doing things like signing Okereke. I blame Mara.
He can't help himself.
No way. That contract is on Schoen, he is the GM. And it is up to him to make the assessment/eval, recommend what his strategy and plan is, and do so in a persuasive manner when facing questions or dissent.
If he couldn't get consensus then he had the fall back approach of the Franchise Tag to solve for that scenario. But again. he needed to show commitment and persuasiveness to get even the FT executed.
So Schoen either failed on the ultimate eval with DJ or he failed on the available approaches and process. Take your pick but that's where the blame lies.
it would have been infinitely easier to extend barkley to save a little money on the 2023 cap relative to his tag amount, and tag jones. do we think mara would have liked to see barkley extended instead of tagged?
before the deadline hit i think that's what i thought would happen just because it's a much simpler negotiation to work out, the only reason to be as aggressive with jones as they were is if they (schoen/daboll) really believed in him and didnt want to give him $32m guaranteed without it counting towards a bigger extension.
Well said
Were you guys fooled by the Eagles collapse? How about Dallas getting their asses handed to them at home by GB?
What was the option at QB after the season if not signing Jones? Hind sight is always easy.
Tommy Devito had a similar year as a passer as Jones did in 2023
Were you guys fooled by the Eagles collapse? How about Dallas getting their asses handed to them at home by GB?
What was the option at QB after the season if not signing Jones? Hind sight is always easy.
Jones IS one of the limited skill players.
Everything we read during the contract negotiotions indicated that the Jones camp were fixated on getting to $40 aav. Hell, they started the negotiations at $50 aav. Schoen should've just called his bluff, but Mara outright admitted that he basically called Jones and begged him to take the $40 million deal (which is hilarious), so all leverage was basically lost in the end.
Neither of us knows for sure, but I have never worked for someone who is passionate about their organization who did not make his feelings known on important decisions. I don't expect the Giants are different.
so what was mara's influence on declining the 5yo?
what was his influence on holding the line w/ barkley over less $ than they gave parris campbell for 1 year?
or in 2019 when they benched eli after 1 game?
i never said mara doesn't have passionate known opinions or some level of input on big decisions - all owners do in every sport (and every business). the ultimate responsibility is with the people whose jobs are on the line (schoen/daboll). if they allow career defining decisions they dont believe they arent the right guys.
Quote:
In comment 16370834 Since1965 said:
Quote:
In comment 16370727 Fishmanjim57 said:
Quote:
This team will never advance as long as Jones is supposed to be their top QB. Jones lacks accuracy in his throwing abilities, he gives away who his target is before each snap, so he is easy to read from the opponents side. His best weapon is his ability to scramble and run with the ball for first downs, yet after his ACL injury that tactic will not be used.
In other words, Jones is a 160 million dollar back-up QB at best.
Jones is the reason why getting quality WR's will mean absolutely nothing to the advancement of this team, because he won't be able to throw the ball to them.
Jones is a disaster, and thanks to the moronic decision to extend his contract and pay him the salary of an elite QB, the team's rebuild is a massive failure.
You miss the point. It all revolves around the offensive line. If you can't block, you can't win, regardless of the QB. And, at the beginnning of the year with Thomas hurt, there were jail breaks half the time - the worst OL in the league by far. No NFL QB could have been consistently accurate, not stared down receivers, not missed open receivers, etc. Not saying Jones is great, but NOBODY could have played well with what he had as an offenive line - NOBODY. A new QB will not make a difference until the OL gets fixed.
You're allowed to solve more than one problem at once. Good teams look to improve all areas of their roster at all times, they're never "set" at any position. The Patriots had Tom Brady, a Super Bowl winning QB in 2001, and during his career drafted the following QBs
2002 - Rohan Davey (4th)
2003 - Kliff Kingsbury (5th)
2005 - Matt Cassel (7th)
2008 - Kevin O'Connell (3rd)
2010 - Zac Robinson (7th)
2011 - Ryan Mallett (3rd)
2014 - Jimmy Garoppolo (2nd)
2016 - Jacoby Brissett (3rd)
2018 - Danny Etling (7th)
2019 - Jarrett Stidham (3rd)
Not once did the Patriots go more than 3 years without drafting a QB during TOM FUCKING BRADY'S career.
The Giants have not drafted a single QB in four drafts since they took Jones.
And at most 3/10 ended up being worth it (Cassel, Jimmy G, Brissett) so you had 7/10 end up as being wasted picks. They would have been better off with a Tommy DeVito as a UDFA and using the pick somewhere else.
The point here is the thought process & taking swings, not so much how each player performed in hindsight
Schoen deserves blame no doubt, but I don't think he could have just moved off both Jones & Barkley. Not using the tag on Jones is the big error.
Schoen went from not talking to Jones during the bye week about a contract to 4 years, $160M. It doesn't add up.
schoen's mistake was exactly what he said though i dont think the expediting was the problem as much as how they did it. he took on big injury risks with campbell/waller and an even bigger gamble on jones while trusting what was a bad offensive line last year to get better via addition by subtraction.
he made bad choices. period.
i dont understand the rush to take away people's responsibilities to what is their job. schoen said the day he did the jones deal "tagging him was a worst case scenario". as an unproven rookie GM he had the freedom to pass on the 5yo option in 2022, why do we think he didnt have the freedom to resign jones to whatever contract he wanted post 2023 when he had been in consideration for exec of the year?
a key reason why that was a worst case scenario was because the extra $10m on this year's cap would have made it harder for him to add waller/campbell. and after all those moves he chose to sign ashawn robinson for roughly the same cap hit as julian love. like i said, just bad choices.
Nice post.
Started with 4 swinging doors at o-line and rapidly became 5.
I am still not as brilliant as the pre-school group who knows that if only a different QB, the surrounding cast would not matter, no matter that our guys were so clueless they seemed hesitant to even consider blocking.
Would have liked to have seen Brady or Rogers function behind our group. And yes, I believe that at some point, the health preservation mode did switch on with DJ. Different strokes for different folks. It may be permanent. He may need psycho-therapy where he is asked to imagine himself not getting killed behind the Giants o-line. Or he may be fine if he gets confident that usually he will only deal with a single free rusher.
Schoen deserves blame no doubt, but I don't think he could have just moved off both Jones & Barkley. Not using the tag on Jones is the big error.
Schoen went from not talking to Jones during the bye week about a contract to 4 years, $160M. It doesn't add up.
he also went from not talking to dexter lawrence or andrew thomas during bye week to massive extensions.
and went from talking to love to letting him walk at a lower number.
he made bad decisions. no need to remove his responsibility in that.
you are correct that he wasnt going to move off jones after a winning season with a road playoff win. but he could have tagged him. they literally went down to the wire in that negotiation within minutes of the deadline, if he didnt want to extend him he could have just run out the clock.
Schoen deserves blame no doubt, but I don't think he could have just moved off both Jones & Barkley. Not using the tag on Jones is the big error.
Schoen went from not talking to Jones during the bye week about a contract to 4 years, $160M. It doesn't add up.
This. There was no combat to declining the 5th year option. The playoff win as fraudulent as it was, gave him enough ammo.
The only way the Campbell signing failed to expedite the process is if it cost them someone else who could have made a difference for the next three or four years. Who exactly was that Mr. Duggan? Every GM signs free agents every year that don't work out, just like they draft guys who don't work out.
Did the Campbell signing keep them from drafting a good receiver? No. So how exactly was signing a low cost receiving option in an attempt the help the offense misguided, especially when the team was desperate for receivers. The problem with all this speculation is no one will ever know what this year's offense could have been because of all the injuries. Especially on the O line.
If you cant't recognize the difference between the owner/president of the team openly voicing "we're back" vs. fans and media sharing the same sentiment, you're a lost cause.
But on the off chance that you're not quite hopeless, do you think you might be capable of recognizing when a specific reference (Campbell) is meant to represent the overall activity and guiding plan, rather than just the singular granularity of one particular signing? Maybe there's some politics involved in only mentioning the acquisition/signing of a player who is no longer on the roster so that the GM isn't openly declaring it a mistake to add/re-sign any of the players who are still on the roster?
I don't think that's an especially nuanced interpretation, either. But maybe you disagree.
John has to stop publicly talking about personnel/individual players.
Quote:
Jones was very solid in 2022 with limited skill players around him. The injuries and tough schedule to start were the main reasons for the bad season.
Were you guys fooled by the Eagles collapse? How about Dallas getting their asses handed to them at home by GB?
What was the option at QB after the season if not signing Jones? Hind sight is always easy.
Tommy Devito had a similar year as a passer as Jones did in 2023
Better, if we're being honest, and that should tell you all you need to know about Jones as a passer. As a passer he is not a first round talent, even today. It is a rank embarrassment that we continue to trot him out there.
John has to stop publicly talking about personnel/individual players.
i assume you mean mara stop talking publicly, but thats a double edged sword. jim dolan and jeff wilpon stopped commenting publicly more than a decade ago, how did that silnce get received by fans when those teams were constantly at the bottom of the standings? how does leon rose's silence get received today?
Quote:
Once the playoff win happened, I'm confident the influence from all the Maras, Abrams, McDonnell & I think there was even a Tisch quote played a role.
Schoen deserves blame no doubt, but I don't think he could have just moved off both Jones & Barkley. Not using the tag on Jones is the big error.
Schoen went from not talking to Jones during the bye week about a contract to 4 years, $160M. It doesn't add up.
he also went from not talking to dexter lawrence or andrew thomas during bye week to massive extensions.
and went from talking to love to letting him walk at a lower number.
he made bad decisions. no need to remove his responsibility in that.
you are correct that he wasnt going to move off jones after a winning season with a road playoff win. but he could have tagged him. they literally went down to the wire in that negotiation within minutes of the deadline, if he didnt want to extend him he could have just run out the clock.
Lawrence and Thomas were under contract for 2024, and Thomas in particular couldn't be extended until the 2023 offseason anyway.
Those examples don't hold water, IMO.
Quote:
Once the playoff win happened, I'm confident the influence from all the Maras, Abrams, McDonnell & I think there was even a Tisch quote played a role.
Schoen deserves blame no doubt, but I don't think he could have just moved off both Jones & Barkley. Not using the tag on Jones is the big error.
Schoen went from not talking to Jones during the bye week about a contract to 4 years, $160M. It doesn't add up.
he also went from not talking to dexter lawrence or andrew thomas during bye week to massive extensions.
and went from talking to love to letting him walk at a lower number.
he made bad decisions. no need to remove his responsibility in that.
you are correct that he wasnt going to move off jones after a winning season with a road playoff win. but he could have tagged him. they literally went down to the wire in that negotiation within minutes of the deadline, if he didnt want to extend him he could have just run out the clock.
The move wasn't to tag Jones, the best move was to let him become an unrestricted free agent and negotiate with him on the open market. The Giants tied their own hands and severely overestimated Jones' market value and severely underestimated their leverage. Schoen got taken to the woodshed by the league and by Jones' reps.
One more fiasco like this and Schoen is finished.
Schoen deserves blame no doubt, but I don't think he could have just moved off both Jones & Barkley. Not using the tag on Jones is the big error.
Schoen went from not talking to Jones during the bye week about a contract to 4 years, $160M. It doesn't add up.
This is what confounds me to this day. Using the tag--
1/ would have been the much more fiscally conservative route knowing that so much of a re-build had to continue;
2/ cap space implications for '23 would have been positive;
3/ even not knowing how '23 would play out, not signing his 5th year option indicated that Schoen and Daboll had reservations--how Jones played under the tag would have likely resolved these to a much better understanding of what the team had with him;
4/ the downside would be if Jones had a great year in '23, but then FO would be playing with house money and a franchise QB.
FT Jones and givng SB a contract his team could have accepted are in different $$ stratospheres.
Quote:
In comment 16371017 Sean said:
Quote:
Once the playoff win happened, I'm confident the influence from all the Maras, Abrams, McDonnell & I think there was even a Tisch quote played a role.
Schoen deserves blame no doubt, but I don't think he could have just moved off both Jones & Barkley. Not using the tag on Jones is the big error.
Schoen went from not talking to Jones during the bye week about a contract to 4 years, $160M. It doesn't add up.
he also went from not talking to dexter lawrence or andrew thomas during bye week to massive extensions.
and went from talking to love to letting him walk at a lower number.
he made bad decisions. no need to remove his responsibility in that.
you are correct that he wasnt going to move off jones after a winning season with a road playoff win. but he could have tagged him. they literally went down to the wire in that negotiation within minutes of the deadline, if he didnt want to extend him he could have just run out the clock.
Lawrence and Thomas were under contract for 2024, and Thomas in particular couldn't be extended until the 2023 offseason anyway.
Those examples don't hold water, IMO.
thomas you're correct but there was no reason he couldnt have started negotiating with lawrence or any other player. they prioritized love/barkley and ironically ended up not extending.
John has to stop publicly talking about personnel/individual players.
It's not necessarily unusual for owners to praise their quarterbacks, but what I've noticed with John is always what the team can do for Jones, and not what he can do to help the team.
When you see the Chiefs and Bengals owners talk about Mahomes and Burrow - around the time they extended them - they discussed what great players they were but that the contracts needed to be reasonable enough to facilitate team building.
Jerry Jones once compared Dak to Brady but with major caveats that Dak needed to raise his game, he even acknowledged the comparison was a stretch.
With Mara and Jones, it's always about giving him a better supporting cast, not about him improving aspects of his own game. I don't think this is going to fly anymore because if you're trashing his supporting cast, you're criticizing some Schoen's hand-picked players!
John has to stop publicly talking about personnel/individual players.
It's not necessarily unusual for owners to praise their quarterbacks, but what I've noticed with John is always what the team can do for Jones, and not what he can do to help the team.
When you see the Chiefs and Bengals owners talk about Mahomes and Burrow - around the time they extended them - they discussed what great players they were but that the contracts needed to be reasonable enough to facilitate team building.
Jerry Jones once compared Dak to Brady but with major caveats that Dak needed to raise his game, he even acknowledged the comparison was a stretch.
With Mara and Jones, it's always about giving him a better supporting cast, not about him improving aspects of his own game. I don't think this is going to fly anymore because if you're trashing his supporting cast, you're criticizing some Schoen's hand-picked players!
not really, he still could have been extended. i would have tried and said so at the time and we know from later reporting that schoen didnt even try when he acknowledged he only approached 2 players.
lawrence would have been well within his rights to pass on the #'s i suggested below (he ended up making more) but nothing was standing in the way from schoen from trying for 3 extensions instead of 2.
comps for potential extensions 11/3/2022 - ( New Window )
I have to think that his seat is starting to get warm and if we have another disaster season he will be on the hit seat. The star players on the team are mostly from the previous regime. There are some promising players but the Pro Bowl / All Pro guys are not from him. It’s early to Judge the picks but early results are a mixed bag considering where we drafted.
I think year 3 is going to be interesting. Are last years draft picks going to step up? The 1st 3 rounds Thibs, Neal, Robinson & Ezeudo. Not enough results after 2 seasons.
schoen's mistake was exactly what he said though i dont think the expediting was the problem as much as how they did it. he took on big injury risks with campbell/waller and an even bigger gamble on jones while trusting what was a bad offensive line last year to get better via addition by subtraction.
he made bad choices. period.
i dont understand the rush to take away people's responsibilities to what is their job. schoen said the day he did the jones deal "tagging him was a worst case scenario". as an unproven rookie GM he had the freedom to pass on the 5yo option in 2022, why do we think he didnt have the freedom to resign jones to whatever contract he wanted post 2023 when he had been in consideration for exec of the year?
a key reason why that was a worst case scenario was because the extra $10m on this year's cap would have made it harder for him to add waller/campbell. and after all those moves he chose to sign ashawn robinson for roughly the same cap hit as julian love. like i said, just bad choices.
Great post.
Quote:
That's materially different than the impending UFAs that Schoen did engage with during the 2022 season.
not really, he still could have been extended. i would have tried and said so at the time and we know from later reporting that schoen didnt even try when he acknowledged he only approached 2 players.
lawrence would have been well within his rights to pass on the #'s i suggested below (he ended up making more) but nothing was standing in the way from schoen from trying for 3 extensions instead of 2. comps for potential extensions 11/3/2022 - ( New Window )
He could have been extended, sure. But there would be very little impetus from the Giants to accelerate the process during the bye week because there would be very little benefit besides long-range security/stability and knocking out something that had an element of inevitability to it.
Contrast that with players who would become unrestricted free agents at the end of the 2022 season - those players not only represented immediate action items (because they would be off the roster for 2023 without a new contract), they also represented varying degrees of competition for consideration on the tag front. Getting Barkley and/or Love signed at the bye would have cleared the deck somewhat for any potential scenario with Jones. Having either/both enter the offseason as UFA would put them into the mix for a tag.
Lawrence didn't fit the urgency on either front. That's why I maintain that his situation was materially different.
You could make a case that Slayton would have been. Jones certainly did fit that same scenario. Neither of them were reportedly engaged during the 2022 bye, and both of them actually did wind up with multi-year contracts in the 2023 offseason, so who knows?
Quote:
That money could have been put towards signing Isaac Seumalo.
Wrong way to look at it imho. He was insurance against the room being decimated yet again with injuries and Robinson coming off an ACL. Just because you have no claims doesn't mean the insurance policy was a poor choice.
Blame pro personnel for an overpay, perhaps, but who was your option last offseason?
Don’t agree. Signing a quality OG was way more important than signing a marginal WR just to have another warm body in the room.
I am with BW on this issue now. The blame here belongs with Schoen and Schoen alone. Yes, Mara loves DJ and undoubtedly pushed his agenda on Schoen last year, overtly or passive aggressively. But the answer for DJ was always the franchise tag. And if Schoen simply couldn't get his head around the cap hit in 2023, then a modest "take it or leave it" contract with a ceiling at the Carr/Geno level was the only possible answer. What Schoen did will forever go down as the dumbest decision ever made by this franchise. Worse than anything Gettleman or Reese did. And even though I appreciate the Mara meddling excuse, it is not his fault here. It is Schoen's fault. The most important part of the Giants GM job is saving the owner from himself. Schoen not only failed in this case, but knowingly and enthusiastically poured diethyl ether on the fire.
So the Parris Campbell signing is just another symptom of the fundamental DJ decision and the "weapons for DJ" requirement for such a weak player. Putting aside the obvious fact that the Giants essentially let 2023 pro bowler Julian Love go to pay for such weapons, it has been the modus operandi for this team for five years now (see Golladay, Tate et al). And the Barkley debate is completely due to the dud we have at quarterback. We never would have put a gun to Barkley's head to stay at a ridiculous cap hit for a rebuilding team if DJ wasn't our quarterback.
So there is no patience left for Schoen. He either gets an elite quarterback in this draft or he doesn't. And I don't mean "tries" to get an elite quarterback. If he drafts the next Zach Wilson in the first round, or the next Ryan Nassib in later rounds, his credibility will be completely shot with the coaches and players, and it will only be a matter of time before he is gone.
I am with BW on this issue now. The blame here belongs with Schoen and Schoen alone. Yes, Mara loves DJ and undoubtedly pushed his agenda on Schoen last year, overtly or passive aggressively. But the answer for DJ was always the franchise tag. And if Schoen simply couldn't get his head around the cap hit in 2023, then a modest "take it or leave it" contract with a ceiling at the Carr/Geno level was the only possible answer. What Schoen did will forever go down as the dumbest decision ever made by this franchise. Worse than anything Gettleman or Reese did. And even though I appreciate the Mara meddling excuse, it is not his fault here. It is Schoen's fault. The most important part of the Giants GM job is saving the owner from himself. Schoen not only failed in this case, but knowingly and enthusiastically poured diethyl ether on the fire.
I think one possibility is that Schoen actually loves Jones. The draft will be telling about this, but Schoen won't be the first outsider who has come through this building that fell in love with Jones. See Joe Judge.
You could make a case that Slayton would have been. Jones certainly did fit that same scenario. Neither of them were reportedly engaged during the 2022 bye, and both of them actually did wind up with multi-year contracts in the 2023 offseason, so who knows?
the slayton point is a great one but respectfully i think it only proves the point further than schoen has been somewhat hot/cold/reactionary in his decision making.
remember by the bye week they had had a full offseason program, training camp, preseason, and more than a half season of practices/game tape. in lawrence's case he was a captain and had a long track record of health. nobody is saying they had to get a deal done, but schoen somehow went from not even inquiring to $90m in the span of like 9 more games. even if they only thought of him as a 40m player at the bye week, nothing was stopping them from trying if they had a conviction that he was a core player. the earlier you start negotiating the bigger the discount is typically expected bc the comps are different.
in slayton's case they went from forcing a paycut in sept, to not talking to him in november, to extending him march for double what they cut his pay from. 360 degrees in 6 months. love, another captain, went the opposite path in the 4 months from nov to march.
to me the trend is overly reactionary decision making, and with how things ended up with jones we could probably say the same there with their aggression to extend vs. tag. and i say that as somebody who probably has the least issue with the jones contract of anybody even today. i just always found the comment about tagging being a "worst case scenario" strange (along with the decisions on barkley and love).
Quote:
Lots of really good discussion and insight here.
I am with BW on this issue now. The blame here belongs with Schoen and Schoen alone. Yes, Mara loves DJ and undoubtedly pushed his agenda on Schoen last year, overtly or passive aggressively. But the answer for DJ was always the franchise tag. And if Schoen simply couldn't get his head around the cap hit in 2023, then a modest "take it or leave it" contract with a ceiling at the Carr/Geno level was the only possible answer. What Schoen did will forever go down as the dumbest decision ever made by this franchise. Worse than anything Gettleman or Reese did. And even though I appreciate the Mara meddling excuse, it is not his fault here. It is Schoen's fault. The most important part of the Giants GM job is saving the owner from himself. Schoen not only failed in this case, but knowingly and enthusiastically poured diethyl ether on the fire.
I think one possibility is that Schoen actually loves Jones. The draft will be telling about this, but Schoen won't be the first outsider who has come through this building that fell in love with Jones. See Joe Judge.
This is becoming more and more probable. You are right. The draft will tell if he is truly going to acknowledge his gargantuan error or double down on it. My guess is, you will see another "weapon for Daniel" in the first round of the draft... followed by that weapon landing squarely in Schoen's back as he exits the building for the final time next year...
If NYG goes 8-9 in 2024 with Bo Nix showing flashes of being a big time QB, everyone will feel great.
If NYG goes 8-9 with Jones/Taylor/DeVito with no long term resolution at QB, this will feel like a rudderless situation.
If NYG goes 8-9 in 2024 with Bo Nix showing flashes of being a big time QB, everyone will feel great.
If NYG goes 8-9 with Jones/Taylor/DeVito with no long term resolution at QB, this will feel like a rudderless situation.
the key difference this year is that unlike the previous 2 it is a very strong qb class with multiple options who could fit well in round 1.
this situation likely wouldnt presently feel any less rudderless if you swapped devito with malik willis, matt corral, kenny pickett, ridder, howell, or will levis. or tyrod/jones with 34 yo geno smith, 29 yo baker mayfield, 28 yo gardner minshew, 33 yo derek carr. the only difference with the latter list is that they'd have more cap room to....expedite more things!?!?
If NYG goes 8-9 in 2024 with Bo Nix showing flashes of being a big time QB, everyone will feel great.
If NYG goes 8-9 with Jones/Taylor/DeVito with no long term resolution at QB, this will feel like a rudderless situation.
Mara and Schoen have to acknowledge that we are back to square one in a rebuild. So if they do things correctly this off season, it is far more likely that we will go 3-14 in 2024, irrespective of who the quarterback is, than 8-9. Frankly, if we go 8-9 with DJ that might be the worst possible outcome imaginable... I can then hear the big push for restructuring and extending DJ again a year from now! "If we just had a few more weapons! If we just had some better offensive linemen! If we could just score thirty points a game on defense!"
Can you imagine??? The Giants would possibly achieve a level of quarterback hell never thought possible in a world where winning a championship is the criterion by which success is measured...
If this team goes 3-14, fire everyone and start over again.
The Giants are what the Maras do. This is their lives. They're probably not delving into the minutiae (we know Chris would rather attend the Kentucky Derby than day 3 of the draft), but they absolutely have a direct say in who the quarterback is going to be. And that's not unique to the Giants; this happens all over the league.
Schoen failed in one of two ways. He either misevaluated the roster based on the 2022 mirage or he failed to convince the Maras that 2022 was a mirage. Managing up is just as important as managing down, if not moreso. Schoen has hired a lot of smart people that work under him; there's no way all those smart people thought it was a good idea to decorate from their original course and give Jones $82M guaranteed.
The Giants are what the Maras do. This is their lives. They're probably not delving into the minutiae (we know Chris would rather attend the Kentucky Derby than day 3 of the draft), but they absolutely have a direct say in who the quarterback is going to be. And that's not unique to the Giants; this happens all over the league.
Schoen failed in one of two ways. He either misevaluated the roster based on the 2022 mirage or he failed to convince the Maras that 2022 was a mirage. Managing up is just as important as managing down, if not moreso. Schoen has hired a lot of smart people that work under him; there's no way all those smart people thought it was a good idea to decorate from their original course and give Jones $82M guaranteed.
True. Also true is when this whole plan fails, Schoen will bear the brunt. Rinse and repeat.
still living rent free in some heads it appears.
Where are all those interview requests?
Isn't it telling that Brandon Brown has gotten multiple interview requests. Kafka is too. But all the old guard NYG front office people, nothing.
Quote:
Anyone know what Kevin Abrams is up to these days?
still living rent free in some heads it appears.
Oh c'mon, you should know how this works by now.
Quote:
Anyone know what Kevin Abrams is up to these days?
Where are all those interview requests?
Isn't it telling that Brandon Brown has gotten multiple interview requests. Kafka is too. But all the old guard NYG front office people, nothing.
Yep. If Mara can feel safe going back to DG, all bets are off.
The Giants are what the Maras do. This is their lives. They're probably not delving into the minutiae (we know Chris would rather attend the Kentucky Derby than day 3 of the draft), but they absolutely have a direct say in who the quarterback is going to be. And that's not unique to the Giants; this happens all over the league.
Schoen failed in one of two ways. He either misevaluated the roster based on the 2022 mirage or he failed to convince the Maras that 2022 was a mirage. Managing up is just as important as managing down, if not moreso. Schoen has hired a lot of smart people that work under him; there's no way all those smart people thought it was a good idea to decorate from their original course and give Jones $82M guaranteed.
What makes you so sure Schoen wasn't/isn't enamored with Jones? It's feasible that Mara hired Schoen because he indicated that he always liked Jones.
So, I just don't get this notion that he's smart enough to see that Jones is not the answer.
Giving him an off-ramp here is quite an act of benevolence on your part...
Quote:
In comment 16371273 JonC said:
Quote:
Anyone know what Kevin Abrams is up to these days?
still living rent free in some heads it appears.
Oh c'mon, you should know how this works by now.
i do, things go bad and people play the boogeyman greatest hits. ronnie barnes on injury saxophone, kevin abrams playing the contract drums, johnny m writing all the sheet music.
or since you brought up abrams, is there some credible reporting (or informed speculation) about a single decision he's influenced with the new regime?
Same thing he always did. Columns and rows of numbers and negotiating contract terms based on parameters set but others.
You've had info in the past from inside in the building. Was he ever more than an FP&A/budget guy that was getting courtesy interviews?
If he loved Jones from the outset he would have picked up the fifth year option, I imagine.
I think the original plan was Taylor as the bridge to a QB drafted in 22/23. Then I think that plan was thrown out the moment John told the world "We're back."
Quote:
Go back and watch Daniel Jones's Duke pro day; you'll see Chris Mara on the front row of people watching the workout. Go watch footage of the Giants' entourage at the Scouting Combine; you'll see John and Chris watching prospects working at the white board.
The Giants are what the Maras do. This is their lives. They're probably not delving into the minutiae (we know Chris would rather attend the Kentucky Derby than day 3 of the draft), but they absolutely have a direct say in who the quarterback is going to be. And that's not unique to the Giants; this happens all over the league.
Schoen failed in one of two ways. He either misevaluated the roster based on the 2022 mirage or he failed to convince the Maras that 2022 was a mirage. Managing up is just as important as managing down, if not moreso. Schoen has hired a lot of smart people that work under him; there's no way all those smart people thought it was a good idea to decorate from their original course and give Jones $82M guaranteed.
What makes you so sure Schoen wasn't/isn't enamored with Jones? It's feasible that Mara hired Schoen because he indicated that he always liked Jones.
So, I just don't get this notion that he's smart enough to see that Jones is not the answer.
Giving him an off-ramp here is quite an act of benevolence on your part...
I don’t buy it. If he was “enamored” with Jones, why wouldn’t he have executed the option? It would have been a defensible position. I think both Schoen and Daboll knew what they had in Jones, a guy who could make plays with this legs but struggled to be even a competent passer, and thought they could (had to) live with it for a year. I think 2022 surprised them more than anyone.
Most people realized the roster wasn't that good. I'm linking a pre-season projection from CBS: only one of the six analysts picked the Giants to make the playoffs. Most people here, IIRC, expected us to win 6-8 games. Schoen did worse than the idiots on the couch.
I was puzzled at the Campbell signing but fine with the Waller trade--both were low-risk moves, the type a team with low confidence in their contention ability should take, IMV. Signing Jones to that albatross deal was the big mistake.
Schoen himself is in a worse strategic position than he was 12 months ago. I think he almost has to make a big move for a QB, or his seat is going to be scorching by the end of next year. People point to the amount of turnover we have had at the HC position, but our biggest errors the past decade involved keeping Reese and Gettleman too long. It was pretty clear within months of taking the job that Gettleman was clueless--to give him four years was awful.
CBS Sports - ( New Window )
Most people realized the roster wasn't that good. I'm linking a pre-season projection from CBS: only one of the six analysts picked the Giants to make the playoffs. Most people here, IIRC, expected us to win 6-8 games. Schoen did worse than the idiots on the couch.
I was puzzled at the Campbell signing but fine with the Waller trade--both were low-risk moves, the type a team with low confidence in their contention ability should take, IMV. Signing Jones to that albatross deal was the big mistake.
Schoen himself is in a worse strategic position than he was 12 months ago. I think he almost has to make a big move for a QB, or his seat is going to be scorching by the end of next year. People point to the amount of turnover we have had at the HC position, but our biggest errors the past decade involved keeping Reese and Gettleman too long. It was pretty clear within months of taking the job that Gettleman was clueless--to give him four years was awful. CBS Sports - ( New Window )
Yep. It's pretty simple. Schoen needs to acquire a QB this year who plays at a level which gives the franchise legitimate hope going forward.
Gettleman won 19 games in 4 years with no winning seasons and no playoff wins and got 4 years.
I don’t buy it. If he was “enamored” with Jones, why wouldn’t he have executed the option? It would have been a defensible position. I think both Schoen and Daboll knew what they had in Jones, a guy who could make plays with this legs but struggled to be even a competent passer, and thought they could (had to) live with it for a year. I think 2022 surprised them more than anyone.
Schoen couldn't do that. He had to hedge on the 5th year option because of the neck injury. They had to make sure Jones could actually walk on the field and play.
It wasn't like Jones was coming off surgery to remove his tonsils.
i do, things go bad and people play the boogeyman greatest hits. ronnie barnes on injury saxophone, kevin abrams playing the contract drums, johnny m writing all the sheet music.
or since you brought up abrams, is there some credible reporting (or informed speculation) about a single decision he's influenced with the new regime?
The Giants have one of the worst winning percentages in all of professional sports over the last decade. There have been very few constants over that decade. Mara and Abrams have been a constant.
Maybe they aren't boogeymen and maybe they're just bad at their jobs?
Quote:
Yeah, Mara was the only one sharing 'We're' back sentiments. I remember plenty of media folks saying the same thing along with most here.
The only way the Campbell signing failed to expedite the process is if it cost them someone else who could have made a difference for the next three or four years. Who exactly was that Mr. Duggan? Every GM signs free agents every year that don't work out, just like they draft guys who don't work out.
Did the Campbell signing keep them from drafting a good receiver? No. So how exactly was signing a low cost receiving option in an attempt the help the offense misguided, especially when the team was desperate for receivers. The problem with all this speculation is no one will ever know what this year's offense could have been because of all the injuries. Especially on the O line.
If you cant't recognize the difference between the owner/president of the team openly voicing "we're back" vs. fans and media sharing the same sentiment, you're a lost cause.
But on the off chance that you're not quite hopeless, do you think you might be capable of recognizing when a specific reference (Campbell) is meant to represent the overall activity and guiding plan, rather than just the singular granularity of one particular signing? Maybe there's some politics involved in only mentioning the acquisition/signing of a player who is no longer on the roster so that the GM isn't openly declaring it a mistake to add/re-sign any of the players who are still on the roster?
I don't think that's an especially nuanced interpretation, either. But maybe you disagree.
Apparently you can't recognize that the owner is involved in public relations, where the fans and media aren't. And Mara, just like us, has been suffering through this stretch of crap. He has been a fan longer than any of us. I guarantee you he wants them to be good more than many here do. It's his life.
If you think Mara saying "We're back" right after a euphoric road playoff win changed the way Schoen did his job, then you're the hopeless one. By the way, owners (and GMs and coaches) of losing teams say that all the time. Listen to them after the draft. This team desperately needed receivers. Schoen grabbed a who had 63 catches in 2022. That would have led the Giants. A guy with great speed, something else they needed. At a reasonable price. The move that really should be getting the attention was re-signing and keeping Shepard. Campbell could have been around for a couple of years if he produced. Shepard was done.
What constantly amazes me about this place, and makes me think people are hopeless, is they ignore just how badly the injuries devastated this offense. Forget the macho next man up bull. Talent wins out. A below average O line to start was down to third stringers and practice squad players at times. At the same time Barkley, Jones, and Waller were all out, and then Taylor.
People here, just like Mara, overreacted last year when things were good. Go back to the prediction threads. A whole bunch of people were sure they would win 10, maybe 11 games. Now they are overreacting to this year. This was no better than a 7 or 8 win team if it had been healthy. They won six with more injuries than I have ever seen a team endure, and I'm pretty sure I've been around a lot longer than you. I know I've had a closer look at how an NFL team works than you.
Quote:
i do, things go bad and people play the boogeyman greatest hits. ronnie barnes on injury saxophone, kevin abrams playing the contract drums, johnny m writing all the sheet music.
or since you brought up abrams, is there some credible reporting (or informed speculation) about a single decision he's influenced with the new regime?
The Giants have one of the worst winning percentages in all of professional sports over the last decade. There have been very few constants over that decade. Mara and Abrams have been a constant.
Maybe they aren't boogeymen and maybe they're just bad at their jobs?
nobody gets to choose the owner and they've won 2 super bowls this century. would think new york fans would understand how much worse it could be given the innumerable worse owners we've had in just the tristate area but i guess not.
If I step in a puddle every day on my way from my house to the train, and every day I switch to a different pair of shoes, but I keep stepping in the same puddle, eventually I'm going to have to come to terms with the problem not being the shoes. It's either me, or the puddle, because those are the only two constants.
If you want to keep blaming the shoes and calling the puddle a boogeyman, that's an option.
nobody gets to choose the owner and they've won 2 super bowls this century. would think new york fans would understand how much worse it could be given the innumerable worse owners we've had in just the tristate area but i guess not.
But that doesn’t they’re still not an issue. You’re arguing a point that isn’t being made.
The Maras are going to own the Giants, nobody who is realistic things that’s possible to change. But they can become less involved and influential.
James Dolan did it. The Steinbrenner’s did it after George passed.
Quote:
In comment 16371320 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
i do, things go bad and people play the boogeyman greatest hits. ronnie barnes on injury saxophone, kevin abrams playing the contract drums, johnny m writing all the sheet music.
or since you brought up abrams, is there some credible reporting (or informed speculation) about a single decision he's influenced with the new regime?
The Giants have one of the worst winning percentages in all of professional sports over the last decade. There have been very few constants over that decade. Mara and Abrams have been a constant.
Maybe they aren't boogeymen and maybe they're just bad at their jobs?
nobody gets to choose the owner and they've won 2 super bowls this century. would think new york fans would understand how much worse it could be given the innumerable worse owners we've had in just the tristate area but i guess not.
How many have they won since Chris and Tim took senior leadership roles in the front office?
And why is ownership (and their inner-circle Olive Garden cronies, by extension) the one area where we're scolded for wondering if they're keeping up with an ever-evolving league? Or - gasp - wondering if they're even capable of innovation?
People here, just like Mara, overreacted last year when things were good. Go back to the prediction threads. A whole bunch of people were sure they would win 10, maybe 11 games. Now they are overreacting to this year. This was no better than a 7 or 8 win team if it had been healthy. They won six with more injuries than I have ever seen a team endure, and I'm pretty sure I've been around a lot longer than you. I know I've had a closer look at how an NFL team works than you.
Two problems. They overreacted to a year where all the data pointed to it being an outlier. Instead they ignored that, doubled down and thought they could be a contender.
The second problem is in your first couple of words. The Maras run the team like they’re fans. It’s why Saqoun had to be back, why the Giants scholarship is a thing, why they held onto Eli too long, etc.
Could you imagine the uproar if they had traded up for Mahomes like Mcadoo wanted too? How dare the Giants consider moving on from Eli would be the talking point of a large portion of the fan base, and Mara thinks just like them.
That’s why letting Jones walk and signing a guy like Baker was never an option, even though it was the better move for the franchise.
But it could be worse isn't a consolation prize and certainly not an operating strategy.
The Giants are what the Maras do. This is their lives. They're probably not delving into the minutiae (we know Chris would rather attend the Kentucky Derby than day 3 of the draft), but they absolutely have a direct say in who the quarterback is going to be. And that's not unique to the Giants; this happens all over the league.
Schoen failed in one of two ways. He either misevaluated the roster based on the 2022 mirage or he failed to convince the Maras that 2022 was a mirage. Managing up is just as important as managing down, if not moreso. Schoen has hired a lot of smart people that work under him; there's no way all those smart people thought it was a good idea to decorate from their original course and give Jones $82M guaranteed.
Don't forget that Wellington voted to keep Kerry Collins and build around him. Obviously that did not happen. We don't really know what went on behind those scenes, but it seems the GM at the time got his way, not the owner's way.
Quote:
nobody gets to choose the owner and they've won 2 super bowls this century. would think new york fans would understand how much worse it could be given the innumerable worse owners we've had in just the tristate area but i guess not.
But that doesn’t they’re still not an issue. You’re arguing a point that isn’t being made.
The Maras are going to own the Giants, nobody who is realistic things that’s possible to change. But they can become less involved and influential.
James Dolan did it. The Steinbrenner’s did it after George passed.
every owner has to empower a top decision maker to run things whether it's the coach, team prez, or gm. dolan stepping away would have been meaningless if that person was still isiah or phil. choosing that person is what mara has mostly sucked at. coughlin and reese mostly good. mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur, judge almost entirely bad. schoen/daboll remain to be seen.
when hired schoen was a pretty universally approved pick and mara did what most everyone said they wanted him to do (hire someone well thought of like that, "from the outside", let them hire their own head coach, which clearly happened with daboll).
i personally choose to evaluate the new regimes performance without grading them on a curve, at least until someone points me to a credible report of actual not imagined interference.
Quote:
In comment 16371281 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16371273 JonC said:
Quote:
Anyone know what Kevin Abrams is up to these days?
still living rent free in some heads it appears.
Oh c'mon, you should know how this works by now.
i do, things go bad and people play the boogeyman greatest hits. ronnie barnes on injury saxophone, kevin abrams playing the contract drums, johnny m writing all the sheet music.
or since you brought up abrams, is there some credible reporting (or informed speculation) about a single decision he's influenced with the new regime?
If you honestly think I belong among those, there's really nothing to discuss. You have your beliefs and can stand on that postage stamp of territory. I'm perfectly good with my position. Giants have won absolutely nothing since the Maras stepped to the forefront of football ops.
I'm not of the belief that Schoen won't take advantage of the escape he negotiated after 2024. I expect Jones to be cut after next season and a new QB drafted in April within the top two rounds of the draft.
I'm more focused on Schoen identifying the mistake and moving off it in another direction.
The Giants also barely try to upgrade the QB. Other teams are taking swings at QB much more than the Giants.
It goes back to my favorite line on BBI, "special teams gunner is a bigger need than QB."
Quote:
In comment 16371281 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16371273 JonC said:
Quote:
Anyone know what Kevin Abrams is up to these days?
still living rent free in some heads it appears.
Oh c'mon, you should know how this works by now.
i do, things go bad and people play the boogeyman greatest hits. ronnie barnes on injury saxophone, kevin abrams playing the contract drums, johnny m writing all the sheet music.
or since you brought up abrams, is there some credible reporting (or informed speculation) about a single decision he's influenced with the new regime?
Maybe Kevin Abrams helped Schoen put together the numbers and contract clauses behind that B+/A deal for Daniel Jones?
i personally choose to evaluate the new regimes performance without grading them on a curve, at least until someone points me to a credible report of actual not imagined interference.
Would John Mara have been happy if Schoen let Jones walk?
At some point owners need to buy credibility. If it got so bad where they need to clean house again, I could see someone like Tomlin if he ever wants a change. If this regime can't do it, it'll need to be someone who already has done it to manage the politics of dealing with family ownership.
If you honestly think I belong among those, there's really nothing to discuss. You have your beliefs and can stand on that postage stamp of territory. I'm perfectly good with my position. Giants have won absolutely nothing since the Maras stepped to the forefront of football ops.
the tiny postage stamp of hold the people in charge accountable?
if schoen was the highly regarded gm candidate everyone around football said he was, why would he submit to not having autonomy? and why would he have continued with that the case after a very successful first year?
is it fact or fiction that he fired a big chunk of the FO he inheritted and hired the coach he wanted over the BC-bred coach we know from publicly leaked texts the mara family wanted?
Quote:
i personally choose to evaluate the new regimes performance without grading them on a curve, at least until someone points me to a credible report of actual not imagined interference.
Would John Mara have been happy if Schoen let Jones walk?
Would John Mara have had the backbone to see Schoen or Daboll walk after 2022 if they didnt want to keep jones?
Would John Mara have had the backbone to see Schoen or Daboll walk after 2022 if they didnt want to keep jones?
Schoen wouldn’t have quit a GM he got a year earlier. It would be career suicide. But I’ll ask it again,
Would Mara have been happy if Schoen let Jones walk? Or would he have likely put up a fight based on his public comments?
God forbid they question their own "evaluations"
Quote:
Would John Mara have had the backbone to see Schoen or Daboll walk after 2022 if they didnt want to keep jones?
Schoen wouldn’t have quit a GM he got a year earlier. It would be career suicide. But I’ll ask it again,
Would Mara have been happy if Schoen let Jones walk? Or would he have likely put up a fight based on his public comments?
there was no rational world where he was walking last year it was either tag or extend. they practically announced it the day the season ended.
if an owner was overstepping your job, mandating a career defining multi-year extension for a player you dont want, only a loser wouldnt push back against that. if it were me and i was coming off a year where i got consideration for GM of the year, id say "this is my decision, if you want something different then i may not be the right guy for this job". His contract would get paid and it wouldn't be career suicide. there would have been 5-10 teams lining up to hire him. just like there were teams lining up to hire flores until he filed his lawsuit.
God forbid they question their own "evaluations"
A lot of people on here had a way better evaluation of Gettleman than John Mara had.
God forbid they question their own "evaluations"
Maranoia strikes deep.
Quote:
for arm chair GMs.
God forbid they question their own "evaluations"
A lot of people on here had a way better evaluation of Gettleman than John Mara had.
Gettlemen? jesus. I thouoght this was about JS. how about living in the now? what is the statute of limitations for crying about that guy?
there was no rational world where he was walking last year it was either tag or extend. they practically announced it the day the season ended.
if an owner was overstepping your job, mandating a career defining multi-year extension for a player you dont want, only a loser wouldnt push back against that. if it were me and i was coming off a year where i got consideration for GM of the year, id say "this is my decision, if you want something different then i may not be the right guy for this job". His contract would get paid and it wouldn't be career suicide. there would have been 5-10 teams lining up to hire him. just like there were teams lining up to hire flores until he filed his lawsuit.
Except being an NFL GM isn’t a regular job. There’s only a certain number of them, and you’re working for an owner who has a lot of clout within the league. There wasn’t going to be 10 teams lining up to hire Schoen if he quit after a year. Flores had back to back winning seasons, he had a much better resume as a head coach than Schoen would have as a GM.
And to your first point, they announced it way before that, when Mara proclaimed the Giants had done everything to screw up Jones - absolving him of any responsibility in the teams failures. Schoen bears responsibility for the contract - he could have told Jones to go find a similar deal and they’ll match it. He didn’t, and I’d wager it was partially because of the feeling about Jones from the rest of the building.
Quote:
In comment 16371455 dancing blue bear said:
Quote:
for arm chair GMs.
God forbid they question their own "evaluations"
A lot of people on here had a way better evaluation of Gettleman than John Mara had.
Gettlemen? jesus. I thouoght this was about JS. how about living in the now? what is the statute of limitations for crying about that guy?
That’s crying? Or do you lack basic critical thinking?
The people you like to call arm chair GMS have been way more right about this organization for the last decade than the organization has been about themselves. That was the point. Sorry thinking is hard.
I'm sure your fantasy team is awesome. It's just not quite the same as the real world. Maybe one day, while Mara is reading the message board, he will spot your genius and deposit you in the front office. a high position. above the nephew, even.
there was no rational world where he was walking last year it was either tag or extend. they practically announced it the day the season ended.
if an owner was overstepping your job, mandating a career defining multi-year extension for a player you dont want, only a loser wouldnt push back against that. if it were me and i was coming off a year where i got consideration for GM of the year, id say "this is my decision, if you want something different then i may not be the right guy for this job". His contract would get paid and it wouldn't be career suicide. there would have been 5-10 teams lining up to hire him. just like there were teams lining up to hire flores until he filed his lawsuit.
We are in total lockstep with this. If Schoen is just caving to the wishes of Mara, he needs to go. He’s the wrong man for the job and absolutely nothing has changed. Basically, we have Gettleman 2.0, only in better shape, younger, and more articulate.
I’m just stunned again - because this has been discussed before - how many posters are give Schoen a pass on this and say he’s essentially a victim of circumstance.
I'm sure your fantasy team is awesome. It's just not quite the same as the real world. Maybe one day, while Mara is reading the message board, he will spot your genius and deposit you in the front office. a high position. above the nephew, even.
And maybe one day you’ll actually contribute a good post on this board!
And no thanks, I have more fun working in my area of professional sports.
And to your first point, they announced it way before that, when Mara proclaimed the Giants had done everything to screw up Jones - absolving him of any responsibility in the teams failures.
if he got fired after winning a playoff game bc an owner over-stepped, i think his chances of getting another job would have been higher than his chances if he were to get fired in year 3 or 4 after failing because he gave out a contract nobody except his owner would have given out. losing gms dont usually get 2nd chances. in either scenario he ends up with his contract paid out looking for another job. id choose to the version where i retain some dignity even if it meant going back to buffalo for a few years waiting for the next job because id rather be free to find an actual opportunity than waste time getting sock puppeted as a pr front man for a losing organization.
to the particular point quoted above, did they decline his 5th year option before or after these mara comments?
I also think it bears repeating a million times that John Mara is the president of the team, and owns a tiny minority He personally owns less than a 5% share of the team.
He serves as the leader of the team at the pleasure of his family and the Tisch family. He is a football guy. This isn't a side hustle his billions afford him.
Quote:
there was no rational world where he was walking last year it was either tag or extend. they practically announced it the day the season ended.
if an owner was overstepping your job, mandating a career defining multi-year extension for a player you dont want, only a loser wouldnt push back against that. if it were me and i was coming off a year where i got consideration for GM of the year, id say "this is my decision, if you want something different then i may not be the right guy for this job". His contract would get paid and it wouldn't be career suicide. there would have been 5-10 teams lining up to hire him. just like there were teams lining up to hire flores until he filed his lawsuit.
We are in total lockstep with this. If Schoen is just caving to the wishes of Mara, he needs to go. He’s the wrong man for the job and absolutely nothing has changed. Basically, we have Gettleman 2.0, only in better shape, younger, and more articulate.
I’m just stunned again - because this has been discussed before - how many posters are give Schoen a pass on this and say he’s essentially a victim of circumstance.
we are indeed in total lockstep. and i like schoen, i think hes done a good job on the whole. the mistakes he's made were understandable and were hopefully just rookie mistakes after the 2022 sugar high. but whoever owns the gm/hc titles owns the results. im surprised there's any objection to that.
Quote:
If you honestly think I belong among those, there's really nothing to discuss. You have your beliefs and can stand on that postage stamp of territory. I'm perfectly good with my position. Giants have won absolutely nothing since the Maras stepped to the forefront of football ops.
the tiny postage stamp of hold the people in charge accountable?
if schoen was the highly regarded gm candidate everyone around football said he was, why would he submit to not having autonomy? and why would he have continued with that the case after a very successful first year?
is it fact or fiction that he fired a big chunk of the FO he inheritted and hired the coach he wanted over the BC-bred coach we know from publicly leaked texts the mara family wanted?
Because no GM besides Jerry Jones actually has full autonomy. They all have owners to whom they have to bend the knee at some point or another. Not every owner is right or wrong at the same frequency as each other, and they may allow for mostly autonomous delegation, but every owner has veto power.
Every single billionaire NFL owner signs the checks, and each and every one of them, with egos the size of their net worth, aren't likely the type to appreciate being shown that their employee isn't "a loser" by telling his boss who's really in charge.
Your version is fantasyland.
Let's also not lose sight of the fact that John Mara is Team President. His brother and nephew are in senior leadership positions in the player personnel department. These are real roles with real football responsibilities. It would be gross negligence for any of those executives - if they weren't also team owners - to refuse to exert any influence over the direction of the organization.
I also think it bears repeating a million times that John Mara is the president of the team, and owns a tiny minority He personally owns less than a 5% share of the team.
He serves as the leader of the team at the pleasure of his family and the Tisch family. He is a football guy. This isn't a side hustle his billions afford him.
on probably 99.9% of the day to day of most organizations there's some level of cross-collaboration.
if you are a public figure as the top guy, yet being forced to do something that you think wrong enough for the org it could cost you that job, that's the .1% of the time where you pull rank because not only does it put your future at risk it is your job to act in the interest of the organization. just like if a boss asks you to do something that puts both you and the company in legal jeopardy. in that case your personal interest and your responsibility to the organization are 100% aligned. and to your point this isnt a jerry jones situation where jm can do with the team exclusively as he wishes. he'd have to involve others in that decision, and it doesnt seem super likely that the tisch family would be up for firing the gm after a good 1st year because he disagrees with the owner on a personnel decision.
and a step farther in this scenario, if schoen feels strongly against jones its almost certainly because daboll feels the same way. is the owner overruling both?
As noted above, I don't think John is weighing in on all 53 roster spots, but I think there were/are definitely players he had a soft spot for on the '23 Giants. And the guys who come to mind are Jones, Saquon, & Shephard. I've touched on DJ, but the reports of us not even entertaining trading Barkley @ the deadline? That's definitely a Mara call, seeing how Saquon is/was viewed as the 'face of the franchise'. That's done a helluva lot good since he was drafted, seeing how we've been one of the worst teams in the league in that span of time. As or Shephard, talk about a scholarship player. Him being on this roster was a complete fucking joke. There's no way in hell he should have made it over Crowder. That still pisses me off.
As noted above, I don't think John is weighing in on all 53 roster spots, but I think there were/are definitely players he had a soft spot for on the '23 Giants. And the guys who come to mind are Jones, Saquon, & Shephard. I've touched on DJ, but the reports of us not even entertaining trading Barkley @ the deadline? That's definitely a Mara call, seeing how Saquon is/was viewed as the 'face of the franchise'. That's done a helluva lot good since he was drafted, seeing how we've been one of the worst teams in the league in that span of time. As or Shephard, talk about a scholarship player. Him being on this roster was a complete fucking joke. There's no way in hell he should have made it over Crowder. That still pisses me off.
Summed up well.
Because no GM besides Jerry Jones actually has full autonomy. They all have owners to whom they have to bend the knee at some point or another. Not every owner is right or wrong at the same frequency as each other, and they may allow for mostly autonomous delegation, but every owner has veto power.
Every single billionaire NFL owner signs the checks, and each and every one of them, with egos the size of their net worth, aren't likely the type to appreciate being shown that their employee isn't "a loser" by telling his boss who's really in charge.
Your version is fantasyland.
Let's also not lose sight of the fact that John Mara is Team President. His brother and nephew are in senior leadership positions in the player personnel department. These are real roles with real football responsibilities. It would be gross negligence for any of those executives - if they weren't also team owners - to refuse to exert any influence over the direction of the organization.
Kyle Shanahan has full personnel autonomy with San Fran. He hired Lynch and Lynch reports to him. And Jed York is completely fine with that operating dynamic.
I think he caved into an exuberant John Mara who saw in the Minnesota win exactly what he wanted to see, and simply dismissed the 2-5-1 finish to the regular season and the lopsided beatdown by the Eagles.
John Mara loves the Giants probably more than anything on earth except his own family, but my guess is his excitement and joy at the playoff win took a lot of options off the table for Schoen, who needed to be a lot more realistic about the season.
I think this is probably pretty accurate.
Except they call half measures stupid things like “Compete for today and build for tomorrow”
Long before Schoen this was a mantra spoken from the lips of several regimes, likely influenced by the internal poisoned kool-aid.
Gee I wonder what the consistent factors are across regimes…
As I posted above, I don't think power dynamics are binary, and I don't think decisions are always binary.
With Jones there is the binary keep/him don't keep him scenario. But I don't think Schoen in each of his three off seasons has practically been there.
2022 - Jones was still under contract
2023 - Jones was coming off a playoff win
2024 - Jones is under contract
I think in all of those scenarios Schoen, Daboll, and Mara collaborate on the degree of commitment to Jones.
Quote:
Because no GM besides Jerry Jones actually has full autonomy. They all have owners to whom they have to bend the knee at some point or another. Not every owner is right or wrong at the same frequency as each other, and they may allow for mostly autonomous delegation, but every owner has veto power.
Every single billionaire NFL owner signs the checks, and each and every one of them, with egos the size of their net worth, aren't likely the type to appreciate being shown that their employee isn't "a loser" by telling his boss who's really in charge.
Your version is fantasyland.
Let's also not lose sight of the fact that John Mara is Team President. His brother and nephew are in senior leadership positions in the player personnel department. These are real roles with real football responsibilities. It would be gross negligence for any of those executives - if they weren't also team owners - to refuse to exert any influence over the direction of the organization.
Kyle Shanahan has full personnel autonomy with San Fran. He hired Lynch and Lynch reports to him. And Jed York is completely fine with that operating dynamic.
If, at any moment it may catch his fancy, York were to choose to overrule that autonomy, he'd be well within his authority to do so. I suspect there are moments when every coach/GM must navigate their owner's wishes. Even the great Belichick had to coexist alongside (and succumb to) the Kraft/Brady relationship.
What's different isn't the power structure among owners, IMO. It's the players to whom each owner becomes attached. Not all of them grow enamored of RBs and mediocre QBs.
It’s pure idiocy.
The confirmation bias is a formidable blind spot too and we keep doing stupid things to mortgage away the real rebuild.
Newsflash jints central, stop trying to be salesmen and start trying to build a winning football team. Your wallets and fans will endure short term volatility when you are HONEST with yourselves and the fans when the ROI of a consistent winner shows up I promise you.
Stop with the half measure garbage.
I am convinced from the way Schoen spoke and handled things in his first offseason to his actions in the second offseason that he got sucked into the same dangerous group think that had consistently existed in NYG or was outright told to do certain things because he didn’t sound like the same guy and here we are again HALF IN HALF OUT. In fucking no man’s land.
Is that the moment when you tell your boss that you think you want to let his golden boy QB test the FA market?
Quote:
In comment 16371320 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
i do, things go bad and people play the boogeyman greatest hits. ronnie barnes on injury saxophone, kevin abrams playing the contract drums, johnny m writing all the sheet music.
or since you brought up abrams, is there some credible reporting (or informed speculation) about a single decision he's influenced with the new regime?
The Giants have one of the worst winning percentages in all of professional sports over the last decade. There have been very few constants over that decade. Mara and Abrams have been a constant.
Maybe they aren't boogeymen and maybe they're just bad at their jobs?
nobody gets to choose the owner and they've won 2 super bowls this century. would think new york fans would understand how much worse it could be given the innumerable worse owners we've had in just the tristate area but i guess not.
What kind of a comment is this? Your son get's a D- Grade (before that he was an "A" Grade Student) and yet his best friend gets a F Grade and you think he deserves credit for having a D- because he wasn't as bad as the other stduent?
Regardless of Mara's past grade his current grade sucks even if it is better than other more incompetent owners.Can you say as a fan that you've enjoyed the Giants product overall these past 10 years? Wouldn't you grade him miserably the past decade?
Is that the moment when you tell your boss that you think you want to let his golden boy QB test the FA market?
The following week should have sobered all up. But I agree...Mara fucking loves Jones. He was looking for ANYTHING to boost Jones & Jones balls out vs. a horrific Vikes defense to give us our first postseason win since XLVI & Mara is high a fucking kite about the Giants.
Recognizing mistakes and correcting them is what a smart GM would do and it's the difference between a guy that has a chance to be good at the job and a dunce like Dave Gettleman, who when faced with bad results just stuck his neck in the sand and made more mistakes.
Quote:
In comment 16371428 JonC said:
Quote:
If you honestly think I belong among those, there's really nothing to discuss. You have your beliefs and can stand on that postage stamp of territory. I'm perfectly good with my position. Giants have won absolutely nothing since the Maras stepped to the forefront of football ops.
the tiny postage stamp of hold the people in charge accountable?
if schoen was the highly regarded gm candidate everyone around football said he was, why would he submit to not having autonomy? and why would he have continued with that the case after a very successful first year?
is it fact or fiction that he fired a big chunk of the FO he inheritted and hired the coach he wanted over the BC-bred coach we know from publicly leaked texts the mara family wanted?
Because no GM besides Jerry Jones actually has full autonomy. They all have owners to whom they have to bend the knee at some point or another. Not every owner is right or wrong at the same frequency as each other, and they may allow for mostly autonomous delegation, but every owner has veto power.
Every single billionaire NFL owner signs the checks, and each and every one of them, with egos the size of their net worth, aren't likely the type to appreciate being shown that their employee isn't "a loser" by telling his boss who's really in charge.
Your version is fantasyland.
Let's also not lose sight of the fact that John Mara is Team President. His brother and nephew are in senior leadership positions in the player personnel department. These are real roles with real football responsibilities. It would be gross negligence for any of those executives - if they weren't also team owners - to refuse to exert any influence over the direction of the organization.
forgetting the lawsuit stuff that transpired later, it wasnt fantasy land when flores stood up to ross and refused to meet with brady before free agency. it wasnt fantasyland when belichik sensed that parcells was going to screw him with the jets that he decided to look elsewhere (and at that time he was a totally unproven commodity). it is possible to stand your ground on something in a professional way without spectacle like flores did (or as parcells always did). id wager it happens a lot more than you think but because it's handled professionally it doesnt get into the public domain.
Is that the moment when you tell your boss that you think you want to let his golden boy QB test the FA market?
Exactly. Schoen's literal options in that moment:
- Let Jones walk
- Let Jones test the market via UFA or transition tender
- Franchise tender Jones as a 1-year prove it
- Sign Jones to somewhere on the multi-year spectrum
That Jones didn't get significant guarantees in a 3rd year that put him over 100M, is a signal to me Schoen actually stood some semblance of ground.
As noted above, I don't think John is weighing in on all 53 roster spots, but I think there were/are definitely players he had a soft spot for on the '23 Giants. And the guys who come to mind are Jones, Saquon, & Shephard. I've touched on DJ, but the reports of us not even entertaining trading Barkley @ the deadline? That's definitely a Mara call, seeing how Saquon is/was viewed as the 'face of the franchise'. That's done a helluva lot good since he was drafted, seeing how we've been one of the worst teams in the league in that span of time. As or Shephard, talk about a scholarship player. Him being on this roster was a complete fucking joke. There's no way in hell he should have made it over Crowder. That still pisses me off.
was it mara's call to hold the line on the extension with barkley too? or was that schoen? or are we just fanfic'ing whoever we want to believe makes the decisions we agree with but not the ones we dont?
it's a total strawman that mara's input has "no weight". of course it has weight. every owner's opinion is heard. there is a difference between an opinion and forcing the biggest contract in franchise history if the GM and/or coach are against it.
nobody gets to choose the owner and they've won 2 super bowls this century. would think new york fans would understand how much worse it could be given the innumerable worse owners we've had in just the tristate area but i guess not.
What kind of a comment is this? Your son get's a D- Grade (before that he was an "A" Grade Student) and yet his best friend gets a F Grade and you think he deserves credit for having a D- because he wasn't as bad as the other stduent?
Regardless of Mara's past grade his current grade sucks even if it is better than other more incompetent owners.Can you say as a fan that you've enjoyed the Giants product overall these past 10 years? Wouldn't you grade him miserably the past decade?
what percentage of of nfl teams have fewer than 2 sb's since 2005?
I'm not of the belief that Schoen won't take advantage of the escape he negotiated after 2024. I expect Jones to be cut after next season and a new QB drafted in April within the top two rounds of the draft.
Why does a new QB need to be drafted in April? San Fran seemed to do okay not taking a Qb early, haven't they?. Dallas has been pretty good. Who knows with better coaching? Tampa Bay a couple years ago seenmed to find a "pretty good" FA. A couple years ago the Rams seemed to make a pretty good trade. And it seems now Detroit isn't doing too bad either from the trade.
1-- The Giants can't make a trade?
2-- They can't pick up a FA?
3-- They can't get a QB later than round 2?
4-- They can't build a team like San Fran?
5-- If the Giants are in Rebuild why such rush to get a QB in April? We understand what "Rebuild" means, right? It doesn't mean success "right away," right? W can't diregard what "rebuild" means. So if they don't love the QB in Round 1 or Round 2, and any of the above 1-4 are possible then why force this?
which trade mandate was that?
As noted above, I don't think John is weighing in on all 53 roster spots, but I think there were/are definitely players he had a soft spot for on the '23 Giants. And the guys who come to mind are Jones, Saquon, & Shephard. I've touched on DJ, but the reports of us not even entertaining trading Barkley @ the deadline? That's definitely a Mara call, seeing how Saquon is/was viewed as the 'face of the franchise'. That's done a helluva lot good since he was drafted, seeing how we've been one of the worst teams in the league in that span of time. As or Shephard, talk about a scholarship player. Him being on this roster was a complete fucking joke. There's no way in hell he should have made it over Crowder. That still pisses me off.
The question is not if Mara's opinion has weight. The question is if Schoen can win the argument if he feels differently.
What many on this thread are asserting is that Schoen really didn't want Jones, but he lost the argument to Mara and caved.
If that is remotely true, this board should be unified in wanting Schoen out of the job.
Quote:
The whole 'Maranoia' thing is odd to me when it comes to Jones. He's on the record PULICLY praising the kid. It is clear AF that Mara REALLY likes Jones. Now, did he give Joe a firm edict to bring back Jones? I have no fucking clue & no one here does. But I think it's laughable if Mara's opinion didn't hold some weight with Schoen & others in the FO/coaching staff not named John Mara. Not to go all Freud on Mara's affinity for Jones, but I've said this ad nauseum & I'll say it again: I think he views Jones as Eli 2.0. Both nice young Southern men with Cutcliffe ties who happen to look alike & are studious workers who represent the franchise well publicly. Of course, the one big difference is that one was actually a legit NFL QB/probable HOFer & the other is a glorified backup somewhere hopefully in '25.
As noted above, I don't think John is weighing in on all 53 roster spots, but I think there were/are definitely players he had a soft spot for on the '23 Giants. And the guys who come to mind are Jones, Saquon, & Shephard. I've touched on DJ, but the reports of us not even entertaining trading Barkley @ the deadline? That's definitely a Mara call, seeing how Saquon is/was viewed as the 'face of the franchise'. That's done a helluva lot good since he was drafted, seeing how we've been one of the worst teams in the league in that span of time. As or Shephard, talk about a scholarship player. Him being on this roster was a complete fucking joke. There's no way in hell he should have made it over Crowder. That still pisses me off.
was it mara's call to hold the line on the extension with barkley too? or was that schoen? or are we just fanfic'ing whoever we want to believe makes the decisions we agree with but not the ones we dont?
it's a total strawman that mara's input has "no weight". of course it has weight. every owner's opinion is heard. there is a difference between an opinion and forcing the biggest contract in franchise history if the GM and/or coach are against it.
Again, nobody is arguing Mara exerts his influence on every decision.
Quote:
I'm not of the belief that Schoen won't take advantage of the escape he negotiated after 2024. I expect Jones to be cut after next season and a new QB drafted in April within the top two rounds of the draft.
Why does a new QB need to be drafted in April? San Fran seemed to do okay not taking a Qb early, haven't they?. Dallas has been pretty good. Who knows with better coaching? Tampa Bay a couple years ago seenmed to find a "pretty good" FA. A couple years ago the Rams seemed to make a pretty good trade. And it seems now Detroit isn't doing too bad either from the trade.
1-- The Giants can't make a trade?
2-- They can't pick up a FA?
3-- They can't get a QB later than round 2?
4-- They can't build a team like San Fran?
5-- If the Giants are in Rebuild why such rush to get a QB in April? We understand what "Rebuild" means, right? It doesn't mean success "right away," right? W can't diregard what "rebuild" means. So if they don't love the QB in Round 1 or Round 2, and any of the above 1-4 are possible then why force this?
To be fair, San Fran did take a QB early. Traded up for one. He just failed
Quote:
Belichick caved to his owner's mandate when trading one of his QBs.
which trade mandate was that?
Trading Garoppolo instead of Brady.
Quote:
nobody gets to choose the owner and they've won 2 super bowls this century. would think new york fans would understand how much worse it could be given the innumerable worse owners we've had in just the tristate area but i guess not.
What kind of a comment is this? Your son get's a D- Grade (before that he was an "A" Grade Student) and yet his best friend gets a F Grade and you think he deserves credit for having a D- because he wasn't as bad as the other stduent?
Regardless of Mara's past grade his current grade sucks even if it is better than other more incompetent owners.Can you say as a fan that you've enjoyed the Giants product overall these past 10 years? Wouldn't you grade him miserably the past decade?
what percentage of of nfl teams have fewer than 2 sb's since 2005?
Is that what you tell your son who has the D- grade now? You explain to your wife how he is so much better than the many students with an F grade?
It seems this past decade is okay by you? Or are you in denial to want to review the past 10 years just as you feel it's okay to ignore your son's D- grade? All because what he was years prior?
I addressed the past as you are doing with 2005 - by stating how your son WAS a good student - but now he is a D- student. SO you want to be in denial of the most recent hsitory? If you aren't in denial then what's the grade over the past 10 years for the Giants? Or are you suggesting 10 years or so isn't adequate enough to re-evaluate?
Quote:
nobody gets to choose the owner and they've won 2 super bowls this century. would think new york fans would understand how much worse it could be given the innumerable worse owners we've had in just the tristate area but i guess not.
What kind of a comment is this? Your son get's a D- Grade (before that he was an "A" Grade Student) and yet his best friend gets a F Grade and you think he deserves credit for having a D- because he wasn't as bad as the other stduent?
Regardless of Mara's past grade his current grade sucks even if it is better than other more incompetent owners.Can you say as a fan that you've enjoyed the Giants product overall these past 10 years? Wouldn't you grade him miserably the past decade?
what percentage of of nfl teams have fewer than 2 sb's since 2005?
Is that meant to be evidence that Mara doesn't fall in paternal love with his QBs?
Quote:
In comment 16371507 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
The whole 'Maranoia' thing is odd to me when it comes to Jones. He's on the record PULICLY praising the kid. It is clear AF that Mara REALLY likes Jones. Now, did he give Joe a firm edict to bring back Jones? I have no fucking clue & no one here does. But I think it's laughable if Mara's opinion didn't hold some weight with Schoen & others in the FO/coaching staff not named John Mara. Not to go all Freud on Mara's affinity for Jones, but I've said this ad nauseum & I'll say it again: I think he views Jones as Eli 2.0. Both nice young Southern men with Cutcliffe ties who happen to look alike & are studious workers who represent the franchise well publicly. Of course, the one big difference is that one was actually a legit NFL QB/probable HOFer & the other is a glorified backup somewhere hopefully in '25.
As noted above, I don't think John is weighing in on all 53 roster spots, but I think there were/are definitely players he had a soft spot for on the '23 Giants. And the guys who come to mind are Jones, Saquon, & Shephard. I've touched on DJ, but the reports of us not even entertaining trading Barkley @ the deadline? That's definitely a Mara call, seeing how Saquon is/was viewed as the 'face of the franchise'. That's done a helluva lot good since he was drafted, seeing how we've been one of the worst teams in the league in that span of time. As or Shephard, talk about a scholarship player. Him being on this roster was a complete fucking joke. There's no way in hell he should have made it over Crowder. That still pisses me off.
was it mara's call to hold the line on the extension with barkley too? or was that schoen? or are we just fanfic'ing whoever we want to believe makes the decisions we agree with but not the ones we dont?
it's a total strawman that mara's input has "no weight". of course it has weight. every owner's opinion is heard. there is a difference between an opinion and forcing the biggest contract in franchise history if the GM and/or coach are against it.
Again, nobody is arguing Mara exerts his influence on every decision.
correct, not every decision, just the single most important decision for the careers of his gm/hc, against their wishes.
and who to shop at the trade deadline, but only when it's a player they were close to extending but held the line on a few months earlier.
and in 2022 when the new regime wasnt drafting malik willis 5th overall bc he isnt mara's preferred skin color for a qb.
Quote:
In comment 16371432 Sean said:
Quote:
I'm not of the belief that Schoen won't take advantage of the escape he negotiated after 2024. I expect Jones to be cut after next season and a new QB drafted in April within the top two rounds of the draft.
Why does a new QB need to be drafted in April? San Fran seemed to do okay not taking a Qb early, haven't they?. Dallas has been pretty good. Who knows with better coaching? Tampa Bay a couple years ago seenmed to find a "pretty good" FA. A couple years ago the Rams seemed to make a pretty good trade. And it seems now Detroit isn't doing too bad either from the trade.
1-- The Giants can't make a trade?
2-- They can't pick up a FA?
3-- They can't get a QB later than round 2?
4-- They can't build a team like San Fran?
5-- If the Giants are in Rebuild why such rush to get a QB in April? We understand what "Rebuild" means, right? It doesn't mean success "right away," right? W can't diregard what "rebuild" means. So if they don't love the QB in Round 1 or Round 2, and any of the above 1-4 are possible then why force this?
To be fair, San Fran did take a QB early. Traded up for one. He just failed
Yes but it is not part of their building right now, correct? That's the point.
Quote:
The whole 'Maranoia' thing is odd to me when it comes to Jones. He's on the record PULICLY praising the kid. It is clear AF that Mara REALLY likes Jones. Now, did he give Joe a firm edict to bring back Jones? I have no fucking clue & no one here does. But I think it's laughable if Mara's opinion didn't hold some weight with Schoen & others in the FO/coaching staff not named John Mara. Not to go all Freud on Mara's affinity for Jones, but I've said this ad nauseum & I'll say it again: I think he views Jones as Eli 2.0. Both nice young Southern men with Cutcliffe ties who happen to look alike & are studious workers who represent the franchise well publicly. Of course, the one big difference is that one was actually a legit NFL QB/probable HOFer & the other is a glorified backup somewhere hopefully in '25.
As noted above, I don't think John is weighing in on all 53 roster spots, but I think there were/are definitely players he had a soft spot for on the '23 Giants. And the guys who come to mind are Jones, Saquon, & Shephard. I've touched on DJ, but the reports of us not even entertaining trading Barkley @ the deadline? That's definitely a Mara call, seeing how Saquon is/was viewed as the 'face of the franchise'. That's done a helluva lot good since he was drafted, seeing how we've been one of the worst teams in the league in that span of time. As or Shephard, talk about a scholarship player. Him being on this roster was a complete fucking joke. There's no way in hell he should have made it over Crowder. That still pisses me off.
The question is not if Mara's opinion has weight. The question is if Schoen can win the argument if he feels differently.
What many on this thread are asserting is that Schoen really didn't want Jones, but he lost the argument to Mara and caved.
If that is remotely true, this board should be unified in wanting Schoen out of the job.
Exactly right. But your point, which I think may be gaining momentum, has been perhaps even worse: that perhaps Schoen actually wanted DJ and did not just agree to the contract, but enthusiastically endorsed it. It is one thing, as Gatorade has eloquently stated above, to suggest that the green junior GM is competent but felt pressured to support the guy who signs his paycheck. It is an altogether different matter if the green junior GM is incompetent and doesn't have a clue to what he is doing.
Quote:
In comment 16371539 giantstock said:
Quote:
nobody gets to choose the owner and they've won 2 super bowls this century. would think new york fans would understand how much worse it could be given the innumerable worse owners we've had in just the tristate area but i guess not.
What kind of a comment is this? Your son get's a D- Grade (before that he was an "A" Grade Student) and yet his best friend gets a F Grade and you think he deserves credit for having a D- because he wasn't as bad as the other stduent?
Regardless of Mara's past grade his current grade sucks even if it is better than other more incompetent owners.Can you say as a fan that you've enjoyed the Giants product overall these past 10 years? Wouldn't you grade him miserably the past decade?
what percentage of of nfl teams have fewer than 2 sb's since 2005?
Is that what you tell your son who has the D- grade now? You explain to your wife how he is so much better than the many students with an F grade?
It seems this past decade is okay by you? Or are you in denial to want to review the past 10 years just as you feel it's okay to ignore your son's D- grade? All because what he was years prior?
I addressed the past as you are doing with 2005 - by stating how your son WAS a good student - but now he is a D- student. SO you want to be in denial of the most recent hsitory? If you aren't in denial then what's the grade over the past 10 years for the Giants? Or are you suggesting 10 years or so isn't adequate enough to re-evaluate?
since it seems like the call is coming from inside the house on the d's/f's ill make this a little simpler for you.
4/32 teams have won 2 super bowls since 2005. the 2 super bowl rings under his tenure is better than 89% of the league.
if my kid brings home an 89%, or ties for 2nd best in their class of 32, im fine with it because that's a pretty good outcome. if that was their track record at a competitive muli-billion $ industry, even if they'd more recently fallen on hard times id probably go on a message board and deluge them in glowing platitudes such as "spine of a wet noodle" and "not the worst".
As Terps said above, QB will always be influenced by the owner. It's not just Mara, I couldn't imagine any owner not sharing an opinion on a major QB decision.
I made threads last year about the Jones-Barkley dilemma. A lot of us could see this from a mile away with the two on expiring deals. My belief is Mara had a strong preference to keep both Jones & Barkley and continue to build on the first year under Daboll. I think Schoen & Daboll wanted to keep building off it too. Schoen valued the QB contract over the RB contract. Just an extremely difficult thing for a first year GM to navigate.
Even dating back to last March, no one questioned whether Jones would be back on BBI. Even his critics believed he'd get around $35M AAV.
It hasn't worked. Let's see how Schoen responds this offseason.
Link - ( New Window )
Again, nobody is arguing Mara exerts his influence on every decision.
correct, not every decision, just the single most important decision for the careers of his gm/hc, against their wishes.
and who to shop at the trade deadline, but only when it's a player they were close to extending but held the line on a few months earlier.
and in 2022 when the new regime wasnt drafting malik willis 5th overall bc he isnt mara's preferred skin color for a qb.
You’re arguing in bad faith. Lumping in fringe ideas like Mara is racist with the idea that he exerts his influence and is wrong more than he is right don’t belong together.
Daniel Jones plays the most important position, is great in front of the media and Mara seems to have a soft spot for him. Of course he’s going to put pressure on Schoen to keep him.
I do think some people are hyperbolic about how bad this contract is for the team. It's a shitty contract but something Schoen can free himself from in a year.
Get used to seeing massive dead cap hits at QB with these contracts. Wilson in Denver. It'll come eventually for Watson in Cleveland. That Hurts contract could be a big yikes too.
Quote:
In comment 16371555 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
Belichick caved to his owner's mandate when trading one of his QBs.
which trade mandate was that?
Trading Garoppolo instead of Brady.
honestly didn't know that happened but i dont see how it's that relevant:
In 2016 they won the SB with Brady.
In 2017 (the year they traded jimmy g) they went to the SB with Brady.
In 2018 they won the SB with Brady.
whatever belicheks feelings for jimmy g were, when he got traded he'd started 7 total games in the nfl.
the biggest incentive for schoen (or daboll) here is their careers being negatively impacted by a decision they are opposed to. however much belichek liked him, jimmy g had almost zero impact on his career. parcells playing games with him did (and would have again which is why he bolted to ne).
They're not even remotely comparable.
If my kid got a perfect score on his SAT and then proceeded to be an aimless loser for the decade that follows, I might find a way to stop blowing smoke up his ass about the test score.
If, at any moment it may catch his fancy, York were to choose to overrule that autonomy, he'd be well within his authority to do so. I suspect there are moments when every coach/GM must navigate their owner's wishes. Even the great Belichick had to coexist alongside (and succumb to) the Kraft/Brady relationship.
What's different isn't the power structure among owners, IMO. It's the players to whom each owner becomes attached. Not all of them grow enamored of RBs and mediocre QBs.
Of course, York can. But he's made a decision that it's in the best interest of the team, and their future success, to just stay out of the way. He felt he was too involved when Harbaugh was there - probably to deal with the friction between Harbaugh and Baalke - and it was time to re-structure how the organization works.
Here is a quote he made in 2022 about the JimG situation with Trey Lance set to take the saddle:
Wish we had an owner with this much clarity.
Quote:
In comment 16371557 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16371539 giantstock said:
Quote:
nobody gets to choose the owner and they've won 2 super bowls this century. would think new york fans would understand how much worse it could be given the innumerable worse owners we've had in just the tristate area but i guess not.
What kind of a comment is this? Your son get's a D- Grade (before that he was an "A" Grade Student) and yet his best friend gets a F Grade and you think he deserves credit for having a D- because he wasn't as bad as the other stduent?
Regardless of Mara's past grade his current grade sucks even if it is better than other more incompetent owners.Can you say as a fan that you've enjoyed the Giants product overall these past 10 years? Wouldn't you grade him miserably the past decade?
what percentage of of nfl teams have fewer than 2 sb's since 2005?
Is that what you tell your son who has the D- grade now? You explain to your wife how he is so much better than the many students with an F grade?
It seems this past decade is okay by you? Or are you in denial to want to review the past 10 years just as you feel it's okay to ignore your son's D- grade? All because what he was years prior?
I addressed the past as you are doing with 2005 - by stating how your son WAS a good student - but now he is a D- student. SO you want to be in denial of the most recent hsitory? If you aren't in denial then what's the grade over the past 10 years for the Giants? Or are you suggesting 10 years or so isn't adequate enough to re-evaluate?
since it seems like the call is coming from inside the house on the d's/f's ill make this a little simpler for you.
4/32 teams have won 2 super bowls since 2005. the 2 super bowl rings under his tenure is better than 89% of the league.
if my kid brings home an 89%, or ties for 2nd best in their class of 32, im fine with it because that's a pretty good outcome. if that was their track record at a competitive muli-billion $ industry, even if they'd more recently fallen on hard times id probably go on a message board and deluge them in glowing platitudes such as "spine of a wet noodle" and "not the worst".
Yet again you are avoiding the point. I asked about his grades THIS YEAR. I'm asking about the Giants grades over the past TEN years.
You keep trying to avoid the Report Card your kid brought home TODAY and the Report Card for Mara over the past Decade. Are you really watching these Sunday game's these past 10 years and saying to yourself "it’s not so bad because we won our last Super Bowl nearly 20 years ago?
Why are you avoiding the last 10 years? Again I'll ask- it's not enough time to re-0evalaute? Tne years is too short? It must be near 20?
The problem with your multi-billion industry analogy - is that you would probably be keeping the same stock of that at one time very profitable horse- buggy- whip during the Automobile evolution avoiding the pathetic growth and the prospects of holding onto what happened many years prior.
You’re poised ot keep holding onto that no-growth stock that has shown massive losses of revenue. I can tell you right now there will be further “loss of revenue” (means another lousy season) for next year. This is supposedly a multi-billion dollar stock? It’s more like K-MART.
Quote:
In comment 16371559 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16371555 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
Belichick caved to his owner's mandate when trading one of his QBs.
which trade mandate was that?
Trading Garoppolo instead of Brady.
honestly didn't know that happened but i dont see how it's that relevant:
In 2016 they won the SB with Brady.
In 2017 (the year they traded jimmy g) they went to the SB with Brady.
In 2018 they won the SB with Brady.
whatever belicheks feelings for jimmy g were, when he got traded he'd started 7 total games in the nfl.
the biggest incentive for schoen (or daboll) here is their careers being negatively impacted by a decision they are opposed to. however much belichek liked him, jimmy g had almost zero impact on his career. parcells playing games with him did (and would have again which is why he bolted to ne).
Is your argument that an on-the-come executive is more likely (and justified) to stand up to his owner than one with actual bona fides?
I'm saying that if Belichick, universally regarded as one of the all-time coaching Mt. Rushmore, couldn't stare down his owner on the topic of QB, I'm not sure how anyone could reasonably expect Schoen and/or Daboll to do so.
Quote:
if my kid brings home an 89%, or ties for 2nd best in their class of 32, im fine with it because that's a pretty good outcome. if that was their track record at a competitive muli-billion $ industry, even if they'd more recently fallen on hard times id probably go on a message board and deluge them in glowing platitudes such as "spine of a wet noodle" and "not the worst".
If my kid got a perfect score on his SAT and then proceeded to be an aimless loser for the decade that follows, I might find a way to stop blowing smoke up his ass about the test score.
which part of "spine of a went noodle" and "not the worst" was the blowing smoke? or was it when i said he's sucked at hiring?
if my kids do something wrong i tell them what they did wrong. i try to not invent things to accuse them of that they may not have done.
Quote:
In comment 16371579 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
if my kid brings home an 89%, or ties for 2nd best in their class of 32, im fine with it because that's a pretty good outcome. if that was their track record at a competitive muli-billion $ industry, even if they'd more recently fallen on hard times id probably go on a message board and deluge them in glowing platitudes such as "spine of a wet noodle" and "not the worst".
If my kid got a perfect score on his SAT and then proceeded to be an aimless loser for the decade that follows, I might find a way to stop blowing smoke up his ass about the test score.
which part of "spine of a went noodle" and "not the worst" was the blowing smoke? or was it when i said he's sucked at hiring?
if my kids do something wrong i tell them what they did wrong. i try to not invent things to accuse them of that they may not have done.
They haven't done well these past 10 years, right? And ten years is enough time to evaluate trends, isn't it? They've been pathetic, right? Just as your kid was pathetic with the D-, right?
Coaches come and go
Who remains? Mara and his family members.
There is one and only one common denominator...Mara
Shepherd was on this team for one reason only. Mara wanted him on this team. Everyone can see that. So that being true what other players are on this team because Mara wanted them on this team? Barkley-absolutely. Jones-Absolutely
If you are the GM you keep Barkley and Jones and you hope it works out. If it doesn't work out after giving the owner what he wants, the owner is not going to fire you. If you do not keep them and it doesn't work you are out of a job.
You don't have to be a genius to figure this out.
Is your argument that an on-the-come executive is more likely (and justified) to stand up to his owner than one with actual bona fides?
I'm saying that if Belichick, universally regarded as one of the all-time coaching Mt. Rushmore, couldn't stare down his owner on the topic of QB, I'm not sure how anyone could reasonably expect Schoen and/or Daboll to do so.
my argument (since day 1 of the new regime) is that the career of any HC or GM is tied to who their QB is, and if they are abdicating the choice of a franchise draft pick to the owner (like willis/pickett in 2022) or committing a big contract to a player (like jones) then they are signing their own pink slip. i think that would hold true veteran or rookie alike.
a legendary figure like belichek in 2017 on the back 9 can do whatever he wants in any situation so hes not a viable comparison in most cases.
So you may feel like the I'm accusing the kid of something he may not have done, but the level of bad luck and general misfortune that would have to align, over a long enough period of time for my kid to be the only constant, in a consistently bad series of outcomes, and somehow not be closely related to the cause is eventually too much to accept, IMO.
The Jones contract wreaks of compromise. My guess is that Joe Schoen knew better but he gave Daniel Jones the big contract anyway. If it was me, I would have moved on from Jones and explained to the owner that Daniel Jones was not good enough to be the team's QB. I would have pointed to the underlying metrics which show he is subpar and that we have had to run a training wheels passing scheme just to become passable on offense. At the very least I would have let Jones become an unrestricted free agent and let the market determine his value. Letting him become an UFA was the best course of action, better than the tag which places a difficult hold on the cap.
Oh well, Schoen spent some of his precious professional capital on Jones. A ridiculous thing to do for such an unaccomplished player. Schoen must have thought the worst it could be is what the Vikings were doing with Cousins. And in that regard I think Schoen's sin wasn't just compromise, but in the end, also poor evaluation. Cousins is probably the end of the tier of QBs you give large deals to. And Kirk Cousins is infinitely better than Daniel Jones.
But that's just it - Belichick couldn't just do whatever he wanted. In two separate recent instances, even with more Lombardi Trophies than any coach in history, Belichick was overruled by his owner on the topic of QB.
Quote:
In comment 16371594 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16371579 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
if my kid brings home an 89%, or ties for 2nd best in their class of 32, im fine with it because that's a pretty good outcome. if that was their track record at a competitive muli-billion $ industry, even if they'd more recently fallen on hard times id probably go on a message board and deluge them in glowing platitudes such as "spine of a wet noodle" and "not the worst".
If my kid got a perfect score on his SAT and then proceeded to be an aimless loser for the decade that follows, I might find a way to stop blowing smoke up his ass about the test score.
which part of "spine of a went noodle" and "not the worst" was the blowing smoke? or was it when i said he's sucked at hiring?
if my kids do something wrong i tell them what they did wrong. i try to not invent things to accuse them of that they may not have done.
They haven't done well these past 10 years, right? And ten years is enough time to evaluate trends, isn't it? They've been pathetic, right? Just as your kid was pathetic with the D-, right?
hey welcome to the mute list! fortunately as a parting gift we agree they've sucked the last 10 years so we're going our separate ways on a high note!
the current regime is on year 2 so im going to judge them on the performance of the jobs they were hired to do, not the 8 years they had nothing to do with.
Quote:
a legendary figure like belichek in 2017 on the back 9 can do whatever he wants in any situation so hes not a viable comparison in most cases.
But that's just it - Belichick couldn't just do whatever he wanted. In two separate recent instances, even with more Lombardi Trophies than any coach in history, Belichick was overruled by his owner on the topic of QB.
Well to be fair, he was overruled by the owner, and the greatest player in the history of the game. Brady tips the scales, most likely. If it was JimmyG and any other QB, Kraft probably would not have intervened.
Gettleman...?
That shows just how absurd a thought it is.
Quote:
a legendary figure like belichek in 2017 on the back 9 can do whatever he wants in any situation so hes not a viable comparison in most cases.
But that's just it - Belichick couldn't just do whatever he wanted. In two separate recent instances, even with more Lombardi Trophies than any coach in history, Belichick was overruled by his owner on the topic of QB.
could have done whatever he wanted meaning with his career. he could have retired the day kraft made that trade behind his back and await his gold jacket.
i assume he chose not to because what kraft did with tom brady's backup in the middle of a super bowl run wasnt more important to him than winning more super bowls.
if you are in the position where your career isnt written yet, whatever that career is, if it's a decision that will come to define you it has a lot of weight. that was the position belichek was in with the jets. take a job under parcells where he was really in control and jerking him around, or get a real chance. that was a risky decision either way and who knows how it looks in hindsight if mo lewis doesnt hit bledsoe.
So you may feel like the I'm accusing the kid of something he may not have done, but the level of bad luck and general misfortune that would have to align, over a long enough period of time for my kid to be the only constant, in a consistently bad series of outcomes, and somehow not be closely related to the cause is eventually too much to accept, IMO.
you are bringing prior baggage from before the new regime, into the new regime and asking to prove a negative. that's your choice but not mine unless there's any actual credible reporting to confirm it, not just circumstantial.
schoen/daboll went through interviews with other teams, they had options and chose this situation. the same way they had options with jones/barkley last year and chose who to tag and who not to. they own the teams performance for the jobs they were hired for. any decision they make against their own judgement is perhaps the biggest failure they could make in my eyes. look up 'loser' in the dictionary and that is it.
Quote:
In comment 16371611 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
a legendary figure like belichek in 2017 on the back 9 can do whatever he wants in any situation so hes not a viable comparison in most cases.
But that's just it - Belichick couldn't just do whatever he wanted. In two separate recent instances, even with more Lombardi Trophies than any coach in history, Belichick was overruled by his owner on the topic of QB.
Well to be fair, he was overruled by the owner, and the greatest player in the history of the game. Brady tips the scales, most likely. If it was JimmyG and any other QB, Kraft probably would not have intervened.
He has since intervened on behalf of Mac Jones as well.
Quote:
In comment 16371603 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16371594 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16371579 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
if my kid brings home an 89%, or ties for 2nd best in their class of 32, im fine with it because that's a pretty good outcome. if that was their track record at a competitive muli-billion $ industry, even if they'd more recently fallen on hard times id probably go on a message board and deluge them in glowing platitudes such as "spine of a wet noodle" and "not the worst".
If my kid got a perfect score on his SAT and then proceeded to be an aimless loser for the decade that follows, I might find a way to stop blowing smoke up his ass about the test score.
which part of "spine of a went noodle" and "not the worst" was the blowing smoke? or was it when i said he's sucked at hiring?
if my kids do something wrong i tell them what they did wrong. i try to not invent things to accuse them of that they may not have done.
They haven't done well these past 10 years, right? And ten years is enough time to evaluate trends, isn't it? They've been pathetic, right? Just as your kid was pathetic with the D-, right?
hey welcome to the mute list! fortunately as a parting gift we agree they've sucked the last 10 years so we're going our separate ways on a high note!
the current regime is on year 2 so im going to judge them on the performance of the jobs they were hired to do, not the 8 years they had nothing to do with.
No shit. But we were talking Mara.
Now you are moving the goal posts.
You understand when you talk about Superbowl over 20 years ago, that has nothing to do with the current GM, right?
It's okay we agree now - and what you brought up before about poor owners - we can agree Mara over the last ten is right up there even if he isn't the worst.
In an industry where there are 32 seats in first class, maneuvering your boss's influence isn't a mortal career sin.
In real terms, if Schoen wanted to franchise Jones and Mara wanted to give him a multi-year deal, the most immature move on Schoen's part is jumping out of the plane.
It was discussed in reference to Bill Belichick. Why is he only getting interviews with the Falcons thus far? Isn't that absurd? You're telling me the Jaguars wouldn't be better with Belichick? Cowboys? The list goes on. But, if you bring Belichick in, he's going to want to do it a certain way and people will lose jobs and/or power.
There are absolutely bad decisions on Schoen, others on ownership, and others both parties share. No one has or should bother disputing any of the above.
It was discussed in reference to Bill Belichick. Why is he only getting interviews with the Falcons thus far? Isn't that absurd? You're telling me the Jaguars wouldn't be better with Belichick? Cowboys? The list goes on. But, if you bring Belichick in, he's going to want to do it a certain way and people will lose jobs and/or power.
Yup. Winning isn't the top priority.
Quote:
In comment 16371603 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16371594 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16371579 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
if my kid brings home an 89%, or ties for 2nd best in their class of 32, im fine with it because that's a pretty good outcome. if that was their track record at a competitive muli-billion $ industry, even if they'd more recently fallen on hard times id probably go on a message board and deluge them in glowing platitudes such as "spine of a wet noodle" and "not the worst".
If my kid got a perfect score on his SAT and then proceeded to be an aimless loser for the decade that follows, I might find a way to stop blowing smoke up his ass about the test score.
which part of "spine of a went noodle" and "not the worst" was the blowing smoke? or was it when i said he's sucked at hiring?
if my kids do something wrong i tell them what they did wrong. i try to not invent things to accuse them of that they may not have done.
They haven't done well these past 10 years, right? And ten years is enough time to evaluate trends, isn't it? They've been pathetic, right? Just as your kid was pathetic with the D-, right?
hey welcome to the mute list! fortunately as a parting gift we agree they've sucked the last 10 years so we're going our separate ways on a high note!
the current regime is on year 2 so im going to judge them on the performance of the jobs they were hired to do, not the 8 years they had nothing to do with.
You judged the Jones deal as B+/A contract for the Giants. And argued with plenty of posters along the way on it. Remember?
And you’re creating mute lists? Hopefully this is your parting gift.
You judged the Jones deal as B+/A contract for the Giants. And argued with plenty of posters along the way on it. Remember?
And you’re creating mute lists? Hopefully this is your parting gift.
tbf most of the posters i argue with appear to be your various handles. and yes, there is an easy to use extension to mute whoever you'd like, so if you ever get sick of stalking me by all means feel free to try it yourself.
only downside is it doesnt work on mobile, so never 100% dupe free. and of course whenever your new handles spring up.
https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/bbi-mute/onplioidmgmiofkkbcokbfkapiifmknf?pli=1 - ( New Window )
I believe JS 100% made the decision with Jones with BD's support so I don't think it even got to that though.
Regardless, the Jones situation is just one issue. There are many other issues with the team including coaching that I am more worried about. The same LOS issue lives on and continues to plague this organization for over a decade.
I believe JS 100% made the decision with Jones with BD's support so I don't think it even got to that though.
Regardless, the Jones situation is just one issue. There are many other issues with the team including coaching that I am more worried about. The same LOS issue lives on and continues to plague this organization for over a decade.
Quote:
You judged the Jones deal as B+/A contract for the Giants. And argued with plenty of posters along the way on it. Remember?
And you’re creating mute lists? Hopefully this is your parting gift.
tbf most of the posters i argue with appear to be your various handles. and yes, there is an easy to use extension to mute whoever you'd like, so if you ever get sick of stalking me by all means feel free to try it yourself.
only downside is it doesnt work on mobile, so never 100% dupe free. and of course whenever your new handles spring up. https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/bbi-mute/onplioidmgmiofkkbcokbfkapiifmknf?pli=1 - ( New Window )
Lol. You are arguing with multiple posters above, all at the same time, based on the pivots you have to make to support your posts. And this is simply one thread.
Still wondering how Schoen executed an A-grade deal with Jones but now, just about 10 months later, this thread is full of your views that he is making bad, over-reactionary deals and should have just tagged Jones. Let the posters who you haven't muted know if you would please.
There’s a couple of ways Schoen messed up. One is unknown, and that’s that Schoen was in agreement with Mara that Jones is the guy long term. The hedge in the contract seems to say no, but who knows.
The second way Schoen messed up was bidding against himself and not letting Jones hit free agency and come back with a deal for the Giants to match. The third is having a hardline on Barkley’s contract when it would have been better for the Giants to cave to Barkley and tag Jones, or let Barkley walk. Mara wouldn’t have been a fan of the latter, Barkley is his cash cow at the moment.
Multiple things can be true at the same time. Schoen messed up and Mara influenced the decisions, and was wrong again. But the Schoen mess ups don’t happen without the Mara influence. Based on the way the negotiations went and the Jones contract structure, Schoen probably wanted to let Barkley walk and franchise tag Jones. But his boss wanted both back. I think there’s more confirmation for that by how they handled Barkley at the deadline.
Quote:
Your view has no more direct evidence than mine, and both of us rely on a combination of circumstantial evidence and our own perception/interpretation thereof in forming our respective views.
So you may feel like the I'm accusing the kid of something he may not have done, but the level of bad luck and general misfortune that would have to align, over a long enough period of time for my kid to be the only constant, in a consistently bad series of outcomes, and somehow not be closely related to the cause is eventually too much to accept, IMO.
you are bringing prior baggage from before the new regime, into the new regime and asking to prove a negative. that's your choice but not mine unless there's any actual credible reporting to confirm it, not just circumstantial.
schoen/daboll went through interviews with other teams, they had options and chose this situation. the same way they had options with jones/barkley last year and chose who to tag and who not to. they own the teams performance for the jobs they were hired for. any decision they make against their own judgement is perhaps the biggest failure they could make in my eyes. look up 'loser' in the dictionary and that is it.
Just so we're clear, I am bringing baggage from a prior regime (even though the "regime" that I'm referring to is John Mara), and that's somehow not germane to the discussion. But my comment is in response to you wanting to absolve Mara of his potential sins because he was team president when they won two Super Bowls over a decade ago. With a prior regime.
If this argument were a pinball machine, the screen would be flashing "TILT" by now.
There’s a couple of ways Schoen messed up. One is unknown, and that’s that Schoen was in agreement with Mara that Jones is the guy long term. The hedge in the contract seems to say no, but who knows.
The second way Schoen messed up was bidding against himself and not letting Jones hit free agency and come back with a deal for the Giants to match. The third is having a hardline on Barkley’s contract when it would have been better for the Giants to cave to Barkley and tag Jones, or let Barkley walk. Mara wouldn’t have been a fan of the latter, Barkley is his cash cow at the moment.
Multiple things can be true at the same time. Schoen messed up and Mara influenced the decisions, and was wrong again. But the Schoen mess ups don’t happen without the Mara influence. Based on the way the negotiations went and the Jones contract structure, Schoen probably wanted to let Barkley walk and franchise tag Jones. But his boss wanted both back. I think there’s more confirmation for that by how they handled Barkley at the deadline.
Some good thoughts here I agree with, especially not letting Team Jones test the market with either the TT or the FT.
But I want to go another way here. If I'm Schoen, and I really didn't want to hitch my job security to Jones, I'm leaking this to the press. Maybe not right away, but definitely once it's clearer than ever that Jones's play on the field is proving the point. Play the game and create distance for yourself. And I'm sure it can be done in a way that Mara can never trace back.
I believe this is what happened in Carolina. Tepper made the call to select Young over Stroud. Reich had to go along. But once Stroud began to show he was the superior player, Reich leaked to the media (at least I believe he did) that he was not responsible for that decision and wanted to start creating distance from it. I'm not sure that got him fired, but I would imagine it played a part.
So, since there has been absolutely no media reporting of any kind that Schoen did not want Jones, I think it's fair to conclude that he supported re-investing in Jones. Which is why I steadfastly believe he owns this.
Quote:
Look at what Mara said publicly about Jones. He probably said that x 100 internally to Schoen. If there were discussions about whether or not to sign Jones, Mara was pushing for signing him, likely at any cost necessary.
There’s a couple of ways Schoen messed up. One is unknown, and that’s that Schoen was in agreement with Mara that Jones is the guy long term. The hedge in the contract seems to say no, but who knows.
The second way Schoen messed up was bidding against himself and not letting Jones hit free agency and come back with a deal for the Giants to match. The third is having a hardline on Barkley’s contract when it would have been better for the Giants to cave to Barkley and tag Jones, or let Barkley walk. Mara wouldn’t have been a fan of the latter, Barkley is his cash cow at the moment.
Multiple things can be true at the same time. Schoen messed up and Mara influenced the decisions, and was wrong again. But the Schoen mess ups don’t happen without the Mara influence. Based on the way the negotiations went and the Jones contract structure, Schoen probably wanted to let Barkley walk and franchise tag Jones. But his boss wanted both back. I think there’s more confirmation for that by how they handled Barkley at the deadline.
Some good thoughts here I agree with, especially not letting Team Jones test the market with either the TT or the FT.
But I want to go another way here. If I'm Schoen, and I really didn't want to hitch my job security to Jones, I'm leaking this to the press. Maybe not right away, but definitely once it's clearer than ever that Jones's play on the field is proving the point. Play the game and create distance for yourself. And I'm sure it can be done in a way that Mara can never trace back.
I believe this is what happened in Carolina. Tepper made the call to select Young over Stroud. Reich had to go along. But once Stroud began to show he was the superior player, Reich leaked to the media (at least I believe he did) that he was not responsible for that decision and wanted to start creating distance from it. I'm not sure that got him fired, but I would imagine it played a part.
So, since there has been absolutely no media reporting of any kind that Schoen did not want Jones, I think it's fair to conclude that he supported re-investing in Jones. Which is why I steadfastly believe he owns this.
You continue to live in fantasy land. You think a 1st time GM in only his second season is going to “leak” that he disagreed with the owner that just hired him? Come on man. That’s simply not reality. And I’m sure convincing a weirdo on the internet that Jones wasn’t completely his call isn’t high enough on his priority list to risk getting shit canned for being a leaker
To summarize:
So now we are back to giving Schoen credit for a smart contract; but he didn't commit or hitch his job security to Jones. That was Mara, so he's safe.
And just so I understand the process going forward, if we do happen to select a QB in the first round, the interpretation should be this:
Mara has decided to move on from Jones. And the new QB is Mara's pick. Schoen just called it in.
My point is this:
Sometimes it sounds like some here compare this contract Jones got to something Hurts, Burrow or Watson got. It's nothing like that. This contract isn't a 5 year commitment.
Do I think Schoen's job security is linked to Jones? No. Do I think Schoen will bury his head in the sand and just continue to roll with Jones? No. Do I think it was a bad contract? Yes.
I will say this about Jones: he is the luckiest SOB on the planet. From zero star recruit to landing with Cutcliffe to being the 6th pick in the draft in a shitty qb draft, to getting a 5 years with zero competition to play qb in NY, having his one playoff appearance come in the last year of his contract, landing a 4 year $160 million dollar contract as a result with iffy career numbers and an injury history, I want this guy to be picking lottery numbers for me. He's come a long way with his best attribute that he looks like a qb out of central casting.
You continue to live in fantasy land. You think a 1st time GM in only his second season is going to “leak” that he disagreed with the owner that just hired him? Come on man. That’s simply not reality. And I’m sure convincing a weirdo on the internet that Jones wasn’t completely his call isn’t high enough on his priority list to risk getting shit canned for being a leaker
I don't care if Schoen is a first time GM. He's an executive of the company. I can't even begin to imagine he would not be bold in that position.
He's not an intern breaking down video for the scouting department. His voice matters, and he should absolutely use the press if he was being neutered by the owner.
The fantasy land thinking is you and your ilk thinking Schoen is wrapped in teflon on the Jones decision.
If Schoen wasn't fully on board with Jones, he should not be the GM. It's that simple.
Quote:
He signed Jones to a QB deal which was not the top of the market. I keep reading the biggest contract in NYG history, but that really isn't saying much. This was not a top of the market QB deal. There is an out after THIS season. This isn't a set the franchise back 5 years contract.
Yeah, he did. He committed for this coming year which if we get bad Jones will be a completely lost year. Jones got the most of any of the free agent qb's last season and his "out" is at the cost of Andrew Thomas money for one year. That's not a cheap out. And if Jones gets hurt, there is a further guaranty.
I will say this about Jones: he is the luckiest SOB on the planet. From zero star recruit to landing with Cutcliffe to being the 6th pick in the draft in a shitty qb draft, to getting a 5 years with zero competition to play qb in NY, having his one playoff appearance come in the last year of his contract, landing a 4 year $160 million dollar contract as a result with iffy career numbers and an injury history, I want this guy to be picking lottery numbers for me. He's come a long way with his best attribute that he looks like a qb out of central casting.
Not to mention he will be the sixth highest paid player in the NFL in 2024, coming in at nearly twenty percent of the cap. And while the economic malfeasance is galactic, the bigger issue is the question of Schoen's competence as it relates to personnel evaluation:
- Is he just another pencil pushing Gettleman, serving the whims of a well intended but completely misguided owner?
- Is he a competent GM, but lacked the courage of his convictions to properly guide the owner to a proper decision?
- Is he a competent GM, but recognizes that job security is more important than sensible personnel decisions?
- Or perhaps he is just an utterly incompetent GM who didn't just drink the DJ kool aid, but was its chief formulator and recommending sommelier?
The 2024 draft and offseason could not be more important for Joe Schoen...
The 2024 draft and offseason could not be more important for Joe Schoen...
If we make a rational assumption that Schoen has the freedom to choose any position available in the 2024 draft, you are spot on.
Quote:
You continue to live in fantasy land. You think a 1st time GM in only his second season is going to “leak” that he disagreed with the owner that just hired him? Come on man. That’s simply not reality. And I’m sure convincing a weirdo on the internet that Jones wasn’t completely his call isn’t high enough on his priority list to risk getting shit canned for being a leaker
I don't care if Schoen is a first time GM. He's an executive of the company. I can't even begin to imagine he would not be bold in that position.
He's not an intern breaking down video for the scouting department. His voice matters, and he should absolutely use the press if he was being neutered by the owner.
The fantasy land thinking is you and your ilk thinking Schoen is wrapped in teflon on the Jones decision.
If Schoen wasn't fully on board with Jones, he should not be the GM. It's that simple.
Your poiny is pretty ridiculous in one manner but in another he took the job and warrnts blame - so I agree there. But to be so naive to think he should go to war with his boss while he has accomplished nothing and go public with it is veru naive. You think any owner would give a job to a 1st time GM and welcome contrarian points of view publicly???? If you do, then you've been posting here too long and need to take a break. You are getting carried away.
An Exectuive is NOT above an Owner. You tend to sometiems talk brave on here as we all do without real names. In real life the GM is not doing what you suggest in which he as accomplsihed nothing in this spot prior and go a publc battle with his owner.
I agree with Bw and others holding Schoen accountable for the Jones decision. I disagree that this was his only big mistake.
Totally agree that this is a huge off season for him and it is not just about the QB position to me though I think he will draft one.
Quote:
You continue to live in fantasy land. You think a 1st time GM in only his second season is going to “leak” that he disagreed with the owner that just hired him? Come on man. That’s simply not reality. And I’m sure convincing a weirdo on the internet that Jones wasn’t completely his call isn’t high enough on his priority list to risk getting shit canned for being a leaker
I don't care if Schoen is a first time GM. He's an executive of the company. I can't even begin to imagine he would not be bold in that position.
He's not an intern breaking down video for the scouting department. His voice matters, and he should absolutely use the press if he was being neutered by the owner.
The fantasy land thinking is you and your ilk thinking Schoen is wrapped in teflon on the Jones decision.
If Schoen wasn't fully on board with Jones, he should not be the GM. It's that simple.
I find it unrealistic to think that if you had a philosophical difference with your boss, you would handle it differently. Bosses are going to do what they want. It happens in every line of work. The option he has is to either work within the limits established by his boss or quit. It's the same option everyone has.
I find it unrealistic to think that if you had a philosophical difference with your boss, you would handle it differently. Bosses are going to do what they want. It happens in every line of work. The option he has is to either work within the limits established by his boss or quit. It's the same option everyone has.
If I didn't think Jones was going to be the right solution for the team at the most important position, I wouldn't feel comfortable moving forward.
Schoen was hired for his football expertise to build a winning organization. If as many here have asserted that keeping Jones was more Mara's decision than Schoen's, than he should leave. Who the hell wants to work in that dynamic? Build a team in your vision everywhere on the field...except QB.
Which goes back to my point. I am not buying what's being sold here that Schoen just doing what Mara wants. I think he was 100% committed to the Jones decision and he should be held accountable.
If the GM had autonomy maybe we would have traded up to draft Mahomes back in 2017. Think about that.
Quote:
In comment 16371909 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
You continue to live in fantasy land. You think a 1st time GM in only his second season is going to “leak” that he disagreed with the owner that just hired him? Come on man. That’s simply not reality. And I’m sure convincing a weirdo on the internet that Jones wasn’t completely his call isn’t high enough on his priority list to risk getting shit canned for being a leaker
I don't care if Schoen is a first time GM. He's an executive of the company. I can't even begin to imagine he would not be bold in that position.
He's not an intern breaking down video for the scouting department. His voice matters, and he should absolutely use the press if he was being neutered by the owner.
The fantasy land thinking is you and your ilk thinking Schoen is wrapped in teflon on the Jones decision.
If Schoen wasn't fully on board with Jones, he should not be the GM. It's that simple.
I find it unrealistic to think that if you had a philosophical difference with your boss, you would handle it differently. Bosses are going to do what they want. It happens in every line of work. The option he has is to either work within the limits established by his boss or quit. It's the same option everyone has.
It’s leadership 101. When a decision is being discussed by a group internally, whatever final decision is made you treat it as your own decision whether you agreed with it or not.
Ultimately it's on Schoen to make the best decision for the franchise and manage ownership, I'm not excusing him of anything. I just think it's very naive to think Mara did not have a strong preference in committing to Jones long term. I don't believe Mara wanted a nasty, drawn out negotiation with the QB.
Again, it's on Schoen to still make the best decision. But, being a GM for the Giants in this committee structure is a tough job.
Ultimately it's on Schoen to make the best decision for the franchise and manage ownership, I'm not excusing him of anything. I just think it's very naive to think Mara did not have a strong preference in committing to Jones long term. I don't believe Mara wanted a nasty, drawn out negotiation with the QB.
Again, it's on Schoen to still make the best decision. But, being a GM for the Giants in this committee structure is a tough job.
You are 100% correct. I have always believed Mara wanted his other son Eli to have a farewell tour sendoff. He was crushed how by Eli-Gate and the public and media backlash.
So, he absolutely hired an old company man in Gettleman to fulfill those wishes. It was a perfect example of the sentimentality of Mara getting in the way. Emotion over reason...
With the Schoen hire, however, Mara broke a trend of hiring company men indoctrinated in the Giants Way. Mara even said it was time to have a fresh voice bring new ideas to the team's way of doing things.
Along with other remarks, this suggested that Mara was finally letting go of the past and giving a real football professional the baton. Wasn't that what many of us said and thought?
So, if we can agree on those general points, why this sudden pivot thinking Schoen isn't any different than giving the job to Abrams?
It’s leadership 101. When a decision is being discussed by a group internally, whatever final decision is made you treat it as your own decision whether you agreed with it or not.
So, you are another one who believes Schoen didn't really want Jones.
And now he's just following the basic tenets of "leadership 101" and kowtowing to Mara's wishes.
Huge offseason in 2024.
Quote:
You continue to live in fantasy land. You think a 1st time GM in only his second season is going to “leak” that he disagreed with the owner that just hired him? Come on man. That’s simply not reality. And I’m sure convincing a weirdo on the internet that Jones wasn’t completely his call isn’t high enough on his priority list to risk getting shit canned for being a leaker
I don't care if Schoen is a first time GM. He's an executive of the company. I can't even begin to imagine he would not be bold in that position.
He's not an intern breaking down video for the scouting department. His voice matters, and he should absolutely use the press if he was being neutered by the owner.
The fantasy land thinking is you and your ilk thinking Schoen is wrapped in teflon on the Jones decision.
If Schoen wasn't fully on board with Jones, he should not be the GM. It's that simple.
A bridge too far. Can act as if he is unagreeable to any situation other than his own view, not in NYG Land at least. And using the press isn't a prudent path either.
Schoen screwed it up because he either thought Jones was worth it or he couldn't artfully navigate everybody to the path of the Franchise Tag. And the latter should not have been that difficult.
But obviously Schoen missed the eval, he missed how to utilize the tag to protect the bigger downside, and probably how to use cap to fit Jones on the FT+keep Saquon+have a little money to spend on Okereke. Maybe Okereke would have been tough but far more important to think thru the QB issue more.
In 2022 he could have secured Jones for 2 years, and instead left it at one.
In 2023, when most big name QBs get 3 or more years of guarantees, Schoen held held the line at 2.
I don't think this reflects a GM who doesn't want Jones. His actions show he does. I just think he wants him less than Mara does.
Quote:
It’s leadership 101. When a decision is being discussed by a group internally, whatever final decision is made you treat it as your own decision whether you agreed with it or not.
So, you are another one who believes Schoen didn't really want Jones.
And now he's just following the basic tenets of "leadership 101" and kowtowing to Mara's wishes.
I have no freakin idea. And unlike you, I readily admit I have no idea. You don’t either but when has that ever stopped you from choosing a side in the past?
What I’m obviously referring to is your stupid ass suggestion that Schoen would have/should have leaked it to the press if he wasn’t on board with the decision. In my reference to leadership 101, that would make Schoen a shitty leader doing that. He’s the GM so he should take responsibility for the decision whether it was his or not. That’s what good leaders do. But again, he’s the GM so he’s the face of the decision and is ultimately responsible. But contrary to your warped thinking, we will never know to what extent he did or didn’t push back. And it doesn’t even matter
Quote:
In comment 16371909 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
You continue to live in fantasy land. You think a 1st time GM in only his second season is going to “leak” that he disagreed with the owner that just hired him? Come on man. That’s simply not reality. And I’m sure convincing a weirdo on the internet that Jones wasn’t completely his call isn’t high enough on his priority list to risk getting shit canned for being a leaker
I don't care if Schoen is a first time GM. He's an executive of the company. I can't even begin to imagine he would not be bold in that position.
He's not an intern breaking down video for the scouting department. His voice matters, and he should absolutely use the press if he was being neutered by the owner.
The fantasy land thinking is you and your ilk thinking Schoen is wrapped in teflon on the Jones decision.
If Schoen wasn't fully on board with Jones, he should not be the GM. It's that simple.
A bridge too far. Can act as if he is unagreeable to any situation other than his own view, not in NYG Land at least. And using the press isn't a prudent path either.
Schoen screwed it up because he either thought Jones was worth it or he couldn't artfully navigate everybody to the path of the Franchise Tag. And the latter should not have been that difficult.
But obviously Schoen missed the eval, he missed how to utilize the tag to protect the bigger downside, and probably how to use cap to fit Jones on the FT+keep Saquon+have a little money to spend on Okereke. Maybe Okereke would have been tough but far more important to think thru the QB issue more.
CAN'T (not can) act as if he is unagreeable to any situation other than his own view
But it would have meant -67M less on 2024 and 2025. The Giants had a number of options to move 2023 charges out to 2024 and 2025 and come up in the black in the franchise vs. contract scenario.
Going 9-7-1 and winning a playoff game made the job much more difficult, only to have the year I'm sure he expected in 2022 to happen in 2023, which was much more costly.
But it would have meant -67M less on 2024 and 2025. The Giants had a number of options to move 2023 charges out to 2024 and 2025 and come up in the black in the franchise vs. contract scenario.
Thanks for color. Probably numerous player deals that could have been touched to figure this out. DJM always says we can spend more money under the cap than people think :-)
The real interesting thing we all would love to hear is what would Schoen do over again if he could with this situation. The Minn wildcard game did everybody in that front office no favors.
I have no freakin idea. And unlike you, I readily admit I have no idea. You don’t either but when has that ever stopped you from choosing a side in the past?
What I’m obviously referring to is your stupid ass suggestion that Schoen would have/should have leaked it to the press if he wasn’t on board with the decision. In my reference to leadership 101, that would make Schoen a shitty leader doing that. He’s the GM so he should take responsibility for the decision whether it was his or not. That’s what good leaders do. But again, he’s the GM so he’s the face of the decision and is ultimately responsible. But contrary to your warped thinking, we will never know to what extent he did or didn’t push back. And it doesn’t even matter
I would have a lot more respect for Schoen if he leaked his disagreement with this decision to keep Jones instead of doing what "good leaders" supposedly do and simply go along with a bad decision. That is some leadership by the person hired because of his football expertise.
What a job description we are writing here at BBI for the NYG GM position:
You are responsible for building the team in your vision at every position except QB. That decision is left to ownership.
I look forward to the draft in April and your posts telling us what you thought of Mara's pick of a QB if we chose one early.
Parris Campbell was a mistake, yes, but a player evaluation mistake, not a conceptual one. Campbell was 26 years old, a relatively low cost deal. It didn't work.
Some posters have mentioned that Duggan didn't take on Jones. But how about Darren Waller? There's a worthwhile target.
Waller was going on 31 years old for September '23. Daunting injury history. Triple the money (at least) spent on Campbell and, most significantly, a third round pick.
Sure, the majority of third round picks don't hit, but you can't hit if you throw the pick away. And for a rebuilding team, it's potential gold that you don't (sensibly) throw away for a player on the downside.
Schoen still won't admit Waller was a mistake, and a mistake that gets to the heart of the criticism Duggan pretends to offer.
But Duggan won't mention Waller because DW is not a 'safe" example like Campbell, a clear failure who is definitely gone.
I criticize Duggan because he's capable of better and has gotten very soft in his angles and in only going for easy targets.
Quote:
I have no freakin idea. And unlike you, I readily admit I have no idea. You don’t either but when has that ever stopped you from choosing a side in the past?
What I’m obviously referring to is your stupid ass suggestion that Schoen would have/should have leaked it to the press if he wasn’t on board with the decision. In my reference to leadership 101, that would make Schoen a shitty leader doing that. He’s the GM so he should take responsibility for the decision whether it was his or not. That’s what good leaders do. But again, he’s the GM so he’s the face of the decision and is ultimately responsible. But contrary to your warped thinking, we will never know to what extent he did or didn’t push back. And it doesn’t even matter
I would have a lot more respect for Schoen if he leaked his disagreement with this decision to keep Jones instead of doing what "good leaders" supposedly do and simply go along with a bad decision. That is some leadership by the person hired because of his football expertise.
What a job description we are writing here at BBI for the NYG GM position:
You are responsible for building the team in your vision at every position except QB. That decision is left to ownership.
I look forward to the draft in April and your posts telling us what you thought of Mara's pick of a QB if we chose one early.
Again, because you’re obviously having trouble reading. I’m not blaming Mara. Show me in my posts where I’m blaming Mara. I CLEARLY said that I have no idea whether or not Mara influenced the decision. I also CLEARLY said that Schoen is the GM and therefore he is the one that is responsible. Pull yourself together and pay attention to what you’re reading. Or have someone else read it to you.
And again, Schoen isn’t going to throw his boss under the bus no matter how much some laughably arrogant nut job on BBI loses respect for him.
Quote:
In comment 16371566 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16371559 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16371555 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
Belichick caved to his owner's mandate when trading one of his QBs.
which trade mandate was that?
Trading Garoppolo instead of Brady.
honestly didn't know that happened but i dont see how it's that relevant:
In 2016 they won the SB with Brady.
In 2017 (the year they traded jimmy g) they went to the SB with Brady.
In 2018 they won the SB with Brady.
whatever belicheks feelings for jimmy g were, when he got traded he'd started 7 total games in the nfl.
the biggest incentive for schoen (or daboll) here is their careers being negatively impacted by a decision they are opposed to. however much belichek liked him, jimmy g had almost zero impact on his career. parcells playing games with him did (and would have again which is why he bolted to ne).
Is your argument that an on-the-come executive is more likely (and justified) to stand up to his owner than one with actual bona fides?
I'm saying that if Belichick, universally regarded as one of the all-time coaching Mt. Rushmore, couldn't stare down his owner on the topic of QB, I'm not sure how anyone could reasonably expect Schoen and/or Daboll to do so.
With everything there is balance.
I could see the Brady decision, given all he's done for NE and the fact that he was still - by all proven counts - able to play.
Daniel Jones? He's done nothing. I don't even understand why ownership cares one way or the other about him.
Quote:
It’s leadership 101. When a decision is being discussed by a group internally, whatever final decision is made you treat it as your own decision whether you agreed with it or not.
So, you are another one who believes Schoen didn't really want Jones.
And now he's just following the basic tenets of "leadership 101" and kowtowing to Mara's wishes.
Imagine that concept; kowtowing to your boss?
Stop being so naive.
No... Reese did not fall out with the Mara's. If not for the extreme pressure from the fan base, he would have kept Reese.
The reason why Reese does not have a job is because it was obvious to everyone else in the league that Reese was a horrible GM.
Just so we're clear, I am bringing baggage from a prior regime (even though the "regime" that I'm referring to is John Mara), and that's somehow not germane to the discussion. But my comment is in response to you wanting to absolve Mara of his potential sins because he was team president when they won two Super Bowls over a decade ago. With a prior regime.
If this argument were a pinball machine, the screen would be flashing "TILT" by now.
there is a difference between absolving mara of his sins (which i havent done) and accusing him of sins that dont have any reported evidence (which you and all the other maraphobs specialize in with striking predictability, anything you disagree with was mara, anything agreed with was some maneuvered by someone else against maras wishes).
in this day and age do you really think it would be possible for mara to force major personnel decisions against his senior employees and not have had that leak out? it took wink 5 minutes to find a friendly mouthpiece for his airing of grievances. how many gms, head coaches, senior execs have left the org since 2015? marc ross worked for the team for a decade, you think if he didnt have something juicier than pile humping the flores lawsuit he wouldn't have spilled the beans by now? no axe to grind from shurmur if he preferred a qb over a rb in 2018? or a different qb to jones?
mara's sin is that other than hiring coughlin/reese he's sucked at hiring good leaders - which ive commented on since the mistake of keeping reese post-coughlin. accusing a guy of sucking at the most important part of his job is good enough for me, i dont need to extend that to thinking he's also a master puppeteer keeping other people from being evaluated at their jobs.
in this day and age do you really think it would be possible for mara to force major personnel decisions against his senior employees and not have had that leak out? it took wink 5 minutes to find a friendly mouthpiece for his airing of grievances. how many gms, head coaches, senior execs have left the org since 2015? marc ross worked for the team for a decade, you think if he didnt have something juicier than pile humping the flores lawsuit he wouldn't have spilled the beans by now? no axe to grind from shurmur if he preferred a qb over a rb in 2018? or a different qb to jones?
This is sort of what I was attempting to say yesterday. But you said it better.
If Schoen really wanted to cut ties with Jones, but Mara pulled the ownership card, I think that situation absolutely finds its way into the media.
It may not come from Team Schoen, but that's too juicy to keep contained...