I came across this thread last night under hilarious circumstances last night. Time has flown, we're approaching five years since the Giants drafted Manning's replacement.
Was the single biggest failure of this organization. Unfortunately, the Giants brass thought much of the same way a lot of the former regulars on this site did.
Was the single biggest failure of this organization. Unfortunately, the Giants brass thought much of the same way a lot of the former regulars on this site did.
I think one of the major stains on this organization was feeling that they owed Manning something.
Was the single biggest failure of this organization. Unfortunately, the Giants brass thought much of the same way a lot of the former regulars on this site did.
The thread is basically fat man calling people names, time really is a flat circle.
Quote:
Agreed
Ned In Atlanta : 3/19/2019 10:23 am : link
And like last year, Eli�s apologists will point to his good games and say he�s still got it, and point the finger anywhere else but at Eli when he sucks (my guess is this year they blame the loss of OBJ)
Sounds awfully familiar, and it’s not surprising it’s the same people making the same takes.
that Manning was blamed for the failure of coaching and the OL. Jones has not shown he was an upgrade.
Its all water under the bridge but 4 coaches later...are we any better today?
Yup. For me its not, what went wrong 5 years ago. Its, what went wrong 10 years ago and its still a major issue. If scouting/drafting to replace aging/under performing o-line was better, then there would not have been an issue with moving on from Manning. 2013-18 there was a lack of importance in improving the o-line and it continues to haunt the team.
I might be the only one in the boat but the Giants should have traded Jones after his rookie season for a 2nd or 3rd round pick and drafted Herbert.
I’ll admit to being a little slow to accept that it was time to move on from Eli, but at that point, March of 2019, I knew there had to at least be a succession plan. But when you look at his 2018 season - 4,300 yards, 21 TD’s, 7.5 YPA - those are numbers Daniel Jones couldn’t even dream of.
Was the single biggest failure of this organization. Unfortunately, the Giants brass thought much of the same way a lot of the former regulars on this site did.
I think one of the major stains on this organization was feeling that they owed Manning something.
Yup. That plus his teary eyed press conference plus the backlash to the benching set the Giants on the course they are now. Love Eli and it’s not his fault, it’s managements for operating that way but the last couple of years of Eli were brutal for the franchise.
They had a way out of it too. They had an elite #1 WR. Some pieces on defense (Collins, Harrison, Tomlinson, Kennard) that just needed an infusion of youth in the secondary. They just pivoted the wrong direction.
An offensive line for Eli, he would perform. He proved it, he wasn't too old, he was too old to deal with this incompetent front office and all tve stupid fucking things they did to not support him properly. Jones couldn't sniff Eli's ass.
The decisions of the 2018 offseason did not strike me as a rational, good faith effort of a team trying to win. It struck me more like a team running a PR campaign for Eli.
Even then, the Giants had plenty of chances to course correct, so I'm not necessarily going to say that 2018 alone ruined the course of this franchise. However, the team has certainly let the thinking that guided 2018 offseason mess up the team into present day: specifically, the Giants haved acted more like a reputation management firm for late-career Eli and then Jones than committing to building a successful team.
You can at least understand why Eli earned this privilege, but I don't get it for Jones. When he loses, we constantly hear about the supporting cast. Well, guess what; he is part of the cast, and outside of 2022, he has led a bottom tier passing attack every season.
We can also see how this thinking already wrecked Gettleman/Judge. Despite Jones having missed multiple games in 2019 and 2020, the Giants did not make a serious effort to bring in a quality backup in 2021, leading to Mike Glennon being the option instead of someone like Gardner Minshew.
Bottom line: the Giants need to return to looking at their QB as one of 53 players. Yes, the QB gets an elevated status in this league, but unless you are Mahomes-tier, you should be evaluated on your successes and failures at the same level of everyone else on the roster.
And DJ is not the problem. The doesn't mean we shouldn't move on (and should have moved on from Eli). The problem then was Gettlemen. It is hard to overstate how badly he hosed this franchise. Would have been much better off keeping Reese.
I think that problem is solved. Schoen seems much more competent. But it takes a while to get the talent in the door.
I am hoping that we see progress with the talent, rather than regression in 2024. Really true at every position, but especially OL. I have no problem moving on from DJ (regression in 2023 + injury), but I do think that with a competent OL he can do what Brock Purdy does, as an example. Bellinger got worse. SB was worse. Only Slayton was consistent. Yes read that sentence twice. Slayton was our most consistent offensive player.
2023 was the most disappointing season I can remember. If we don't see player progress then we probably need to move on again. Which sucks, because consistent good management and coaching are the most important things for franchise success.
the Giants organization failed Eli Manning after the second Super Bowl by allowing the offensive line to deteriorate. They then decided that Eli as the QB was getting old and a newly drafted QB could overcome any problems on the o-line. Enter DJ. But sadly he was not able to overcome the problems the porous o-line created.
But surely the answer is to draft a new QB because he'll be able to figure out how to complete throws with a defender in his face within 2 seconds of the snap!
Things were growing stale when Gilbride got the axe.
Looking back now - shoulda just torn the bandaid off
Reese first, let the GM pick a coach, let the coach/GM pick a QB
Instead we have (up until Schoen was hired), a series of half measures
Believe it or not, there were serious threads in 2013 about replacing Eli there were rational and did not invite vitriol (outside of Dep). Unfortunately, Bridgewater was the guy people were interested in.
I was in favor of the full house-cleaning after 2013. Reese, Coughlin, Eli all gone or for sale. The whole project was clearly stagnant and they been playing basically .500 ball in the regular season since 2009.
The hardest thing in sports is to move on from franchise legends. It's really hard. The Super Bowl winning QB club is limited, but then add the 2x super bowl winning QB club which is very small. Even looking in the last decade, how many different QBs have won super bowls? It's been mostly Brady & Mahomes.
You can absolutely criticize how the Giants handled the end of the Eli Manning era, but he wasn't just another player either.
The fault is spread out, Eli shares some of it just as the front office does just as the coaching does. The issue became so many people (still do) place all the blame on one area while excusing the others as victims in the incompetence. Everyone contributed to the shitty back half of Eli's career.
The time to move on from Eli was either 2018 or 2020. Once they decided to keep Eli in 2018, they should have committed two years to that plan and had a full clean break in 2020. They took an awful, half measured course of action. 2020 was a much better year to draft a QB.
An offensive line for Eli, he would perform. He proved it, he wasn't too old, he was too old to deal with this incompetent front office and all tve stupid fucking things they did to not support him properly. Jones couldn't sniff Eli's ass.
Like Simms, Eli could have played another 2-3 years on another team with players. But good for them wanting to retire as a NYG.
This team has been disappointing since 2012 in my opinion. A couple good years scattered in the time period.
But as others said, once Eli was gone, the team should have just done a total rebuild not half measures. They should have brought in good scouts and good coaches, whatever it took.
Today, we're at a tipping point again. Can this staff and management turn this around? I would say if 2024 doesnt look vastly better then blow it up for 2025.
the Giants organization failed Eli Manning after the second Super Bowl by allowing the offensive line to deteriorate. They then decided that Eli as the QB was getting old and a newly drafted QB could overcome any problems on the o-line. Enter DJ. But sadly he was not able to overcome the problems the porous o-line created.
But surely the answer is to draft a new QB because he'll be able to figure out how to complete throws with a defender in his face within 2 seconds of the snap!
Eli declined at age 35 the same way that Matt Ryan and Russell Wilson did. Most QBs are finished by 38/39. Some are freaks like Brady and Brees and make it into their early 40s. Some like Eli and Ryan decline a little earlier than 38. It's ok; the only mistake is believing otherwise.
How do we really know that? He's basically had a different offensive every year of his career. I horrible o-line, and substandard receivers.
Was he supposed to succeed under those conditions? And more importantly would any QB the Giants draft succeed under those conditions?
He had continuity at the offensive coordinator between 2020-2021 and 2022-2023. His coordinators just end up fired or on the hot seat because he's been a bottom-tier QB in every advanced stat save for 2022.
A career backup looked better than him in 2023 so I'm confident a top QB they draft will be better.
2012 is a good starting point but I would go back to the 2011 draft. Even earlier drafts were poor after round 2.
Obviously Reese was the big failure as GM and it seems the league agrees with this. He failed Eli. I think it is fair to expect your GM to be able to replace the good OL he inherited. He did not add one player who was as good or a better player than what he inherited on the OL. Tragic.
I also think Mara recognized this too late (after the benching) and then maybe got a little sentimental. I don't fault him as much as some for this decision. The Hail Mary attempt at putting a more competitive team around Eli to finish his contract was earned imv. I wanted Allen in 2018.
How do we really know that? He's basically had a different offensive every year of his career. I horrible o-line, and substandard receivers.
Was he supposed to succeed under those conditions? And more importantly would any QB the Giants draft succeed under those conditions?
For three years in a row the WRs have shown advanced metrics that would argue that they aren’t substandard. They also looked better with other QBs this year.
How do we know the receivers aren’t actually good and Jones is holding them back? Why is it that everyone is holding Jones back?
only more animosity. The GM was the problem.. Eli should have won at least on more championship.. DJ never had a chance and the next wont either if they dont fix the OL issues.. WR is an easy fix, TE same DL and OL need the work.. Run game will immediately improve if that is done.. NEed to fix the OL. Cant win championships without a Run game and a D that can stop the run. Defense wins championships
How do we know the receivers aren’t actually good and Jones is holding them back? Why is it that everyone is holding Jones back?
I think this same thought experiment could have been applied to Manning in 2016-2017.
The Giants operated out of the assumption that Manning was good, so therefore the poor results were the product of everything else.
A cerebral ownership group would have been shaken to its intellectual core by the Geno Smith game. Instead they were shaken to their emotional worst places.
How do we know the receivers aren’t actually good and Jones is holding them back? Why is it that everyone is holding Jones back?
I think this same thought experiment could have been applied to Manning in 2016-2017.
The Giants operated out of the assumption that Manning was good, so therefore the poor results were the product of everything else.
A cerebral ownership group would have been shaken to its intellectual core by the Geno Smith game. Instead they were shaken to their emotional worst places.
How do we know the receivers aren’t actually good and Jones is holding them back? Why is it that everyone is holding Jones back?
I think this same thought experiment could have been applied to Manning in 2016-2017.
The Giants operated out of the assumption that Manning was good, so therefore the poor results were the product of everything else.
A cerebral ownership group would have been shaken to its intellectual core by the Geno Smith game. Instead they were shaken to their emotional worst places.
Even though Odell carried the 2016 offense.
OBJ's greatness 2014-2016 was such a curse disguised as a blessing. His singular ability to destroy defenses created the illusion Ben McAdoo and Eli Manning were a winning combination.
Without first understanding the reality of where and what the team is. Whether Eli had it left in him or not was irrelevant. That team wasn't making a run either way, and this was DGs first and greatest mistake (among many big mistakes).
This draft, we're going to have some major questions. Do we take a QB at any cost, do we prioritize building in the trenches (either side), do we move on from EN and take a stud OT or give him more time, is an impact WR the way to go at 6 or go elsewhere and look to take advantage of a deep WR class and look there in round 2?
There are all major questions and there are legit options in each of these paths, depending on how you feel about the second tier of QBs. So whatever we do --we cannot let 2022 fool us into making similar mistakes that DG made. At the same time, I'm of the rare opinion that this team is not in a disasterous state and we just have to be smart. We need a QB, but we cannot accept mediocrity just to appease the move on from Jones at all cost crowd.
We better have an option around who can move around and attack in the vertical game, that much I'll say, but the bottom line is this team needs to get better. If we can acquire major improvement in other areas and still get a QB in rounds 1-4 to compete with Jones, I'll take that. I feel like this team is capable of competing provided they're able to attack defenses downfield.
Lot of Kleenex investment posts these days, and those days too
Things were growing stale when Gilbride got the axe.
Looking back now - shoulda just torn the bandaid off
Reese first, let the GM pick a coach, let the coach/GM pick a QB
Instead we have (up until Schoen was hired), a series of half measures
I think a case could be made that Schoen's continued the half measures approach. Until he shows me something different, extending Jones was a huge mistake BUT it was a continuation of a long line of mistakes the Giants have made over the last 10 years or more. I want to see Schoen actually rip that bandaid off, get rid of Barkley and Jones, and create a team in his image. Until I see that, it's just more of the same.
Wasn't it Bill Walsh that said, "Better a year early than a year late?"
With the Giants is been the opposite philosophy. We had about the "human element" and the notion of moving on from a popular player being "a tough sell".
Wasn't it Bill Walsh that said, "Better a year early than a year late?"
With the Giants is been the opposite philosophy. We had about the "human element" and the notion of moving on from a popular player being "a tough sell".
Yep, ideally 2016 was the time to do it. Eli could have signed a 3 year deal with Jacksonville and reunited with Coughlin. I admit that would be tough to stomach for me as a fan, but maybe he would have had a rejuvenation in a weak division.
The Giants do always react and operate too late. They're holding onto Jones too long as well.
The emotion of DG/Mara and fondness of Eli is precisely what led to their screwing the SB pick. My general opinion here is that many Giants fans are making the exact same mistake (letting their emotions dictate action), only in the opposite direction. Let's just hope JS and BD can set ego and emotions aside, enough to make sound assessment and judgement. The fans are too emotional and weigh heavily in their thinking.
Yes, 2016 was the season that you could see Eli Manning
in full blown decline. That season they had to rely on the slants to OBJ that went for 70-yards to pull games out and he managed a bunch of close games for a defense that was playing over its head. Nothing wrong with either of those except the Giants needed to be planning for the future in a hurry and weren't. And they were paying a lot for not much, if at all, upside.
Eli had lost his long ball accuracy, he started watching the rush more and more, and become less patient in pocket, often just throwing the ball into ground. But because Eli was the only guy who didn't come of out the lockerroom with their head up their ass in the wildcard game in GB, the front office and his blinded loyal fan base didn't think he was part of the problem. However, both were wrong because he was. You can read a ton of posts in that linked archived thread and just see it dripping in their disdain and condemnation for anyone questioning Eli's role in it all.
And then 2017 was a disaster. And that brought another disaster in Gettleman who delayed the QB decision in 2018, and then drafted Jones in desperation in a weak 2019 draft.
And 5 long years later, after that latest mistake was extended with an awful contract, the franchise continues to be lost.
Eli is currently the 14th highest paid QB & 16 guys make $20m+ AAV
Eric on Li : mute : 3/19/2019 12:46 pm : link
is the expectation really that half of the league is definitively getting "franchise QB" production for $20m?
Rodgers ($33m) and Ryan ($30m) make significantly more. Extremely mediocre recently available options like Cousins ($28m), Grappolo ($27m), Alex Smith ($23.5m), Flacco ($22m) and Foles ($22m) make more. Brady ($15m) should be in the top 3 but we all know NE games the system.
The lack of understanding of what even semi-competent (NON-franchise QB) costs regardless of how anyone rates Eli specifically is mind boggling. The only alternatives to Eli that save money lead to the tired Saquon vs. Darnold argument or the short sighted delusions of "fitzmagic". It's also why the way forward that makes the most sense is drafting someone in the first round and getting 5 years of relatively cheap control.
move and the correct one but Mara should have canned Reese after 2012. At minimum, I would have gotten rid of Ross and sent a very clear message to the front office if I watch my franchise SB MVP QB not protected (both with PB and a good OL) you are next. Mara sided with Reese and the destruction followed.
Eli was plenty capable through 2017 though he may have needed a bit of a different type of team or really a OL like he had early in his career and like Philly and Dallas both had in 2016/17.
Wasn't it Bill Walsh that said, "Better a year early than a year late?"
With the Giants is been the opposite philosophy. We had about the "human element" and the notion of moving on from a popular player being "a tough sell".
Yep, ideally 2016 was the time to do it. Eli could have signed a 3 year deal with Jacksonville and reunited with Coughlin. I admit that would be tough to stomach for me as a fan, but maybe he would have had a rejuvenation in a weak division.
The Giants do always react and operate too late. They're holding onto Jones too long as well.
Terps, if you want to really torture yourself, the equivalent trade for Mahomes would have been Engram, Webb, and Barkley.
move and the correct one but Mara should have canned Reese after 2012. At minimum, I would have gotten rid of Ross and sent a very clear message to the front office if I watch my franchise SB MVP QB not protected (both with PB and a good OL) you are next. Mara sided with Reese and the destruction followed.
Eli was plenty capable through 2017 though he may have needed a bit of a different type of team or really a OL like he had early in his career and like Philly and Dallas both had in 2016/17.
nobody was getting fired within 2 years of that SB win.
their first round picks in 2010 and 2011 were JPP, Linval, and then Prince Amukamara - who all started in the SB and went on to quality careers (excellent in the case of JPP/Linval). So in 2012 nothing looked that bad, and even after the 2012 season there were at least a few flashes from wilson/randle (wilson actually made 2nd team all pro kick return as a rookie).
that 2012 draft was the one that ended up totally catastrophic, along with the fact that the OL was about to spontaneously combust, but that couldn't be fully appreciated until 2014 or 2015 - at whichever point that happened Coughlin and Reese should have been dealt with at the same time and mara should have started over from scratch. but instead everything dragged out with patchwork hires/fires.
The post above re: Manning's output in 2018 is the most fascinating.
Was the 2018 team so good that a declining Manning could blow anything a prime Jones has accomplished out of the water?
Eli's conventional stats looked good during that season but his advanced numbers and the eye test didn't. He racked up some of his biggest games on the backend against bad defenses once the season was basically over.
And two of his top 4 lowest sack rate seasons were 2016 and 2019. 2018 was awful, and 2017 was above average.
The line wasn’t the only problem. Nobody would confuse the Giants line with the Cowboys, but it’s become a crutch of an excuse
Ajr, it is certainly exaggerated by many but the OL issues were not some overeaching excuse. Sacks stats for Eli are also not a clear indicator of the porous OL because he would often throw the ball away or at a RB's feet when a play was blown up quickly by pressure. He had no patience to hang in there and risk being hit and sacked any longer. Except maybe in 2018 :-)
move and the correct one but Mara should have canned Reese after 2012. At minimum, I would have gotten rid of Ross and sent a very clear message to the front office if I watch my franchise SB MVP QB not protected (both with PB and a good OL) you are next. Mara sided with Reese and the destruction followed.
Eli was plenty capable through 2017 though he may have needed a bit of a different type of team or really a OL like he had early in his career and like Philly and Dallas both had in 2016/17.
Come on. This is ridiculous. I know you think Reese sucks and deserves zero credit for anything he did here (2x SB champion GM), but even this from you is surprising.
was rightfully given the opportunity to go out on his terms. I don't think this should be looked at as a problem with the franchise in general. He WAS the New York Giants.
In the 58 years of the Super Bowl, 13 starting quarterbacks have won more than one. Eli also started 210 consecutive games, the third-longest consecutive starts streak by an NFL quarterback.
But the franchise should have just moved on because he was too old. People forget how great he was because he's humble in public
You asked me directly if I thought Reese should be in the ROH. I hope you recall my answer to that but I said I would not have a issue with it though he is at the very bottom tier for me. I think he did plenty of good things early. I also think he was the main culprit in the Giants demise. I have been clear on this.
Are you also disputing my claim about Eli still having plenty left through 2017?
At the conclusion of the 2012 season, the Giants record under Jerry Rees was 58-38, had never finished with a losing season, and had won two championships.
The 2012 offensive line per PFF.
Quote:
11. New York Giants (31)
PB – 20th, RB – 4th, PEN – 12th
Stud: Though he gets next to no praise, Will Beatty (+22.4) had a year that warranted Pro Bowl consideration. The penalties aren’t ideal, but there are not many left tackles who can keep their quarterback upright and generate movement in the run game.
Dud: It was David Diehl (-6.2) again, but the truth is he actually performed a lot better in the second half of the season compared to the liability we’ve known him to be.
Summary: A big improvement from this line, which was terrible in 2011. They made a big contribution in the running game while ensuring Eli Manning faced significantly less pressure. Still, this line is in transition to a degree with a few of players getting to that age where the cliff is approaching.
Was the single biggest failure of this organization. Unfortunately, the Giants brass thought much of the same way a lot of the former regulars on this site did.
I think it was just another failure in a long line of failures dating back to 2011. The roster had been hollowed out and a FA spending spree and prime OBJ made everyone think that this team was a contender again.
I thought then about Eli, what I now think about Jones
The OP Was a Little Long... Jim in Tampa : 3/19/2019 9:47 am
And a little over the top.
However, I think the OP's take is a lot closer to the truth than that of many Eli enthusiasts who think Eli is just a solid OL away from playing like an above average QB.
It hasn't happened yet. Daniel Jones is nothing more than a bridge QB in the history of this franchise. He is a repeat of Dave Brown, who was the Giants bridge between Phil Simms and Eli Manning. He's a stop gap. I know the Giants went through Dave Brown-Danny Kanell-and Kerry Collins before Eli Manning was the franchise QB and there were a couple others who were with the team for a minute. But Daniel Jones, a subpar, injury-prone- former Duke QB, is extremely similar to Dave Brown, who is also a former Duke QB who was sub-par at best.
Why the co-owner is so in love with Jones makes no sense whatsoever.
thread that didn't age well for a few posters but I will give credit where credit is due- BW's post though about Eli ends up being the perfect analogy for Jones last year and then off season. This is exactly what happened with Jones last year.:
Bill L...
bw in dc : 3/19/2019 3:35 pm : link
Here's my bigger fear - actually winning with Eli.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
was rightfully given the opportunity to go out on his terms. I don't think this should be looked at as a problem with the franchise in general. He WAS the New York Giants.
In the 58 years of the Super Bowl, 13 starting quarterbacks have won more than one. Eli also started 210 consecutive games, the third-longest consecutive starts streak by an NFL quarterback.
But the franchise should have just moved on because he was too old. People forget how great he was because he's humble in public
The "move on" BS is a lot og
This is crazy. No player on an NFL team should get special privileges to play as long as they want regardless of production.
The 49ers in 1988 alternated between Montana and Young despite Montana having won 2 superbowls. The reasoning was that Montana wasn't getting it done in the playoffs anymore (he of course responded to that challenge).
Parcells and the local Giants beats were openly discussing replacing Simms during the 1989 season.
The Seahawks sent Russell Wilson packing the moment it was clear he was declining.
The concept of a generalissmo Eli who gets to occupy the QB position for life based on past accomplishments is not how a team should operate.
And two of his top 4 lowest sack rate seasons were 2016 and 2019. 2018 was awful, and 2017 was above average.
The line wasn’t the only problem. Nobody would confuse the Giants line with the Cowboys, but it’s become a crutch of an excuse
Ajr, it is certainly exaggerated by many but the OL issues were not some overeaching excuse. Sacks stats for Eli are also not a clear indicator of the porous OL because he would often throw the ball away or at a RB's feet when a play was blown up quickly by pressure. He had no patience to hang in there and risk being hit and sacked any longer. Except maybe in 2018 :-)
It was bad not doubt, but blaming it all on the line is oversimplifying it.
who missed it with Eli and the team back then and just got angry with others. But not this one below. "Eli Fanboynistas" and "Dilfered" is damn good stuff!
Quote:
Great post by the OP
Les in TO : 3/19/2019 4:10 pm : link
You can churn through GMs coaches coordinators and surrounding linemen and talent but Eli has and is the issue. I�m sure the Eli Fanboynistas will blame a dearth of receiving talent on the offense�s poor performance this year. Eli Dilfered his two Super Bowls and the Giants held on to him and overpaid him five years too long.
was rightfully given the opportunity to go out on his terms. I don't think this should be looked at as a problem with the franchise in general. He WAS the New York Giants.
In the 58 years of the Super Bowl, 13 starting quarterbacks have won more than one. Eli also started 210 consecutive games, the third-longest consecutive starts streak by an NFL quarterback.
But the franchise should have just moved on because he was too old. People forget how great he was because he's humble in public
The "move on" BS is a lot og
This is one way to run a franchise. In a competitive landscape like the NFL it is not the way to build a winning team. Better quarterback than Eli have been forced to move on late in their careers.
It's a question of priority. Is winning the top priority for the Giants? I don't see how anyone can make the argument that it is.
I have zero issues with the 2010 draft. JPP, Linval and Nicks (2009) were the three best picks by Reese imv.
The 2012 draft to me signified a big changing of the Giants direction moving forward and TC was being phased out imv.
I did say it would have been a bold move but I would have at least started with Ross to go along with the very clear message from Mara to Reese I mentioned.
We will never get details but I have a feeling TC and Reese saw football and team building very differently over time.
was rightfully given the opportunity to go out on his terms. I don't think this should be looked at as a problem with the franchise in general. He WAS the New York Giants.
In the 58 years of the Super Bowl, 13 starting quarterbacks have won more than one. Eli also started 210 consecutive games, the third-longest consecutive starts streak by an NFL quarterback.
But the franchise should have just moved on because he was too old. People forget how great he was because he's humble in public
The "move on" BS is a lot og
This is crazy. No player on an NFL team should get special privileges to play as long as they want regardless of production.
The 49ers in 1988 alternated between Montana and Young despite Montana having won 2 superbowls. The reasoning was that Montana wasn't getting it done in the playoffs anymore (he of course responded to that challenge).
Parcells and the local Giants beats were openly discussing replacing Simms during the 1989 season.
The Seahawks sent Russell Wilson packing the moment it was clear he was declining.
The concept of a generalissmo Eli who gets to occupy the QB position for life based on past accomplishments is not how a team should operate.
All revisionist history:
Young was failed QB who had to start for Montana due to injury, the team was surprised he did as well as he did.
Same for Simms, Hoss was nobody who shocked everyone when he was able to come in and win the SB, and they went back to Simms when he was healthy.
was rightfully given the opportunity to go out on his terms. I don't think this should be looked at as a problem with the franchise in general. He WAS the New York Giants.
In the 58 years of the Super Bowl, 13 starting quarterbacks have won more than one. Eli also started 210 consecutive games, the third-longest consecutive starts streak by an NFL quarterback.
But the franchise should have just moved on because he was too old. People forget how great he was because he's humble in public
The "move on" BS is a lot og
This is one way to run a franchise. In a competitive landscape like the NFL it is not the way to build a winning team. Better quarterback than Eli have been forced to move on late in their careers.
It's a question of priority. Is winning the top priority for the Giants? I don't see how anyone can make the argument that it is.
You act like it's a problem with the franchise. Eli gets to be an exception IMO.
You act like it's a problem with the franchise. Eli gets to be an exception IMO.
Making Eli an exception was certainly an option. The problem is it came at a cost of building a better team.
If you enjoyed watching Eli from 2017-2019, then it worked out for you. Personally I think it was the worst thing that could have happened to his career (in terms of legacy, not money) and he would have been better off going elsewhere.
And for the Giants it certainly would have been better on the field to move on.
who missed it with Eli and the team back then and just got angry with others. But not this one below. "Eli Fanboynistas" and "Dilfered" is damn good stuff!
Quote:
Great post by the OP
Les in TO : 3/19/2019 4:10 pm : link
You can churn through GMs coaches coordinators and surrounding linemen and talent but Eli has and is the issue. I�m sure the Eli Fanboynistas will blame a dearth of receiving talent on the offense�s poor performance this year. Eli Dilfered his two Super Bowls and the Giants held on to him and overpaid him five years too long.
I assume you are talking to me. The garbage posts go both ways as it usually does. Although, the post you highlighted would also qualify as a garbage post as well. Do you really agree that Eli 'dilfered' his way to two super bowls? Honest question.
You act like it's a problem with the franchise. Eli gets to be an exception IMO.
Making Eli an exception was certainly an option. The problem is it came at a cost of building a better team.
If you enjoyed watching Eli from 2017-2019, then it worked out for you. Personally I think it was the worst thing that could have happened to his career (in terms of legacy, not money) and he would have been better off going elsewhere.
And for the Giants it certainly would have been better on the field to move on.
There's a human element you leave out. Sure, the stats say you're right, but that's in a bubble.
some commonalities. Both shared in being one of the worst running teams in the league.
2011 89.2yards/3.5
2016 88.3yards/3.5
2011 Nicks (big game playoff performer)
Cruz (healthy)
Manningham experienced third option
Ballard
2016 OBJ (dropped passes in one playoff game)
Cruz greatly diminished player unless you think he was still 2011 version. Not me.
Sheppard Rookie
Tye
TC versus BM
2011 Big playoff performing D versus one that crumbled with a couple injuries.
Older and breaking down OL with a champion pedigree (who stepped up when WB got hurt) versus Flowers, Pugh, WR, Jerry, Hart.
Yet Eli looked like he was ready to go early in the 2016 playoff game.....
It's like I said above - there are a couple different approaches:
1. Better a year early than a year late.
2. There's a human element to consider, and some decisions could be a tough sell to ownership and the fans.
If your sole priority is winning football games, the first approach is what you do. If sentimentality and nostalgia are important to you, the second approach is what you do.
There is no question the Maras believe in the second approach. That is their right; they own the team.
have moved on in history. Montana to KC, Namath to somewhere (I don't remember I was not alive.) So you're argument is valid. It worked for one team and the other is the Jets (lol). I like the way Eli was treated.
do with Lamar GoTerps? You have a lot of opinions on two time SB MVP Eli who got it done in the playoffs but curious what your thoughts are with that question.
Lamar is expensive and just seems like he can't get it done in the playoffs with a really good team around him. SB winning HC and the number one D who pitched a shutout in the 2nd half.
Time to get a replacement?
The best was when Eli would do the "fainting goat" routine
this discussion could go down a rabbit hole. San Francisco had future HOFer Steve Young who, as he says, should have never given another chance. The Jets drafted Richard Todd #6 to be the replace HOFer Namath, who became...well...Richard Todd. (Jets fans often refer to him with the un PC insult of Re-todd.) So, yes, it can work both ways.
It's like I said above - there are a couple different approaches:
1. Better a year early than a year late.
2. There's a human element to consider, and some decisions could be a tough sell to ownership and the fans.
If your sole priority is winning football games, the first approach is what you do. If sentimentality and nostalgia are important to you, the second approach is what you do.
There is no question the Maras believe in the second approach. That is their right; they own the team.
They did do it. The fans reaction was unhinged. Billboards and everything. All because Geno Smith was getting a chance to play on a 2-9 team. Even beyond that, the rest of the NFL reacted. I think I recall Roethlisberger saying he's thankful to play for the Steelers because that would never have happened there.
The reaction was beyond what anyone could have expected.
I linked the thread once Geno Smith was named the starter. A lot of us thought that was the end, but they reversed course. Ghosts of Simms. Link - ( New Window )
do with Lamar GoTerps? You have a lot of opinions on two time SB MVP Eli who got it done in the playoffs but curious what your thoughts are with that question.
Lamar is expensive and just seems like he can't get it done in the playoffs with a really good team around him. SB winning HC and the number one D who pitched a shutout in the 2nd half.
Time to get a replacement?
If Lamar were 36 years old and 5 years removed from the last time he was on a team that did something that mattered, yes I'd say it was past time. I'm sure this was a genuine question.
do with Lamar GoTerps? You have a lot of opinions on two time SB MVP Eli who got it done in the playoffs but curious what your thoughts are with that question.
Lamar is expensive and just seems like he can't get it done in the playoffs with a really good team around him. SB winning HC and the number one D who pitched a shutout in the 2nd half.
Time to get a replacement?
If Lamar were 36 years old and 5 years removed from the last time he was on a team that did something that mattered, yes I'd say it was past time. I'm sure this was a genuine question.
You have repeatedly said SB's are the only thing that matters abd the question is legit- how much more talent, advantage and set up do you need before you are willing to criticize Ljax? You won't because you are disingenuous at best and extremely biased at worst..
It's like I said above - there are a couple different approaches:
1. Better a year early than a year late.
2. There's a human element to consider, and some decisions could be a tough sell to ownership and the fans.
If your sole priority is winning football games, the first approach is what you do. If sentimentality and nostalgia are important to you, the second approach is what you do.
There is no question the Maras believe in the second approach. That is their right; they own the team.
There is a human element to consider when you are working with humans. I can't imagine any team ignores this element when dealing with a situation where it may be time to replace an iconic player or coach. I think teams care (even the successful ones) how players and coaches perceive their treatment of employees.
was rightfully given the opportunity to go out on his terms. I don't think this should be looked at as a problem with the franchise in general. He WAS the New York Giants.
In the 58 years of the Super Bowl, 13 starting quarterbacks have won more than one. Eli also started 210 consecutive games, the third-longest consecutive starts streak by an NFL quarterback.
But the franchise should have just moved on because he was too old. People forget how great he was because he's humble in public
The "move on" BS is a lot og
This is one way to run a franchise. In a competitive landscape like the NFL it is not the way to build a winning team. Better quarterback than Eli have been forced to move on late in their careers.
It's a question of priority. Is winning the top priority for the Giants? I don't see how anyone can make the argument that it is.
I'll admit it, I was a huge fan of Joe Montana and was majorly pissed that he, of all people, wasn't allowed to go out on his own terms. But Walsh and the 49ers were right. They focused on what was best for winning and not sentimentality. The Giants don't do that and as much as the front office and owners might deny it, they aren't in it to win at all costs.
Wasn't it Bill Walsh that said, "Better a year early than a year late?"
With the Giants is been the opposite philosophy. We had about the "human element" and the notion of moving on from a popular player being "a tough sell".
Yep, ideally 2016 was the time to do it. Eli could have signed a 3 year deal with Jacksonville and reunited with Coughlin. I admit that would be tough to stomach for me as a fan, but maybe he would have had a rejuvenation in a weak division.
The Giants do always react and operate too late. They're holding onto Jones too long as well.
If Jones is a Giant beyond next season, I don't know what to say other than the Mara's have full control and the "Giant look" is the only thing that matters. There should be exactly 0 sentimentality with Jones.
Probably get back to work next week and dissect how he can be a better quarterback, coach him up, and be prepared for MVP level play next season and another shot in the playoffs.
Just like the Bills will do with Allen, just like the Bengals will do with Burrow, just like the Lions will do with Goff, just like the Dolphins will do with Tua, just like the Cowboys will do with Dak, just like the Eagles will do with Hurts.
It's like I said above - there are a couple different approaches:
1. Better a year early than a year late.
2. There's a human element to consider, and some decisions could be a tough sell to ownership and the fans.
If your sole priority is winning football games, the first approach is what you do. If sentimentality and nostalgia are important to you, the second approach is what you do.
There is no question the Maras believe in the second approach. That is their right; they own the team.
There is a human element to consider when you are working with humans. I can't imagine any team ignores this element when dealing with a situation where it may be time to replace an iconic player or coach. I think teams care (even the successful ones) how players and coaches perceive their treatment of employees.
What's your opinion on how the Packers treat their players?
It's like I said above - there are a couple different approaches:
1. Better a year early than a year late.
2. There's a human element to consider, and some decisions could be a tough sell to ownership and the fans.
If your sole priority is winning football games, the first approach is what you do. If sentimentality and nostalgia are important to you, the second approach is what you do.
There is no question the Maras believe in the second approach. That is their right; they own the team.
There is a human element to consider when you are working with humans. I can't imagine any team ignores this element when dealing with a situation where it may be time to replace an iconic player or coach. I think teams care (even the successful ones) how players and coaches perceive their treatment of employees.
What about the human element for the other 52 players? Do you think they're working and dealing with injuries so they can be part of the Eli Manning farewell tour? Do their careers and feelings count?
If you had a time machine would you go back and trade for Mahomes?
It's like I said above - there are a couple different approaches:
1. Better a year early than a year late.
2. There's a human element to consider, and some decisions could be a tough sell to ownership and the fans.
If your sole priority is winning football games, the first approach is what you do. If sentimentality and nostalgia are important to you, the second approach is what you do.
There is no question the Maras believe in the second approach. That is their right; they own the team.
There is a human element to consider when you are working with humans. I can't imagine any team ignores this element when dealing with a situation where it may be time to replace an iconic player or coach. I think teams care (even the successful ones) how players and coaches perceive their treatment of employees.
What about the human element for the other 52 players? Do you think they're working and dealing with injuries so they can be part of the Eli Manning farewell tour? Do their careers and feelings count?
Certianly other players matter of course. I don't think the Giants planned an Eli Manning farewell tour. I think the Giants thought Eli was still a viable option (right or wrong). If a team deliberately orchestrates some sort of a 'farewell tour' for a player they know or strongly feel is not a viable option then I would agree with you. It seems to me you believe the Giants did orchestrate this farewell tour at the expense of fans and other players while I do not. That is a big difference.
If your answer is yes, then how do you account for the human element in kicking Eli to the curb?
This a bit tricky because of hindsight, no? To answer you question with the benefit of hindsight, absolutely the Giants should have made every effort to trade up for Mahomes and dealt with Eli then. A team can deal with the human element while also making the correct decision. The Giants did it with Armstead, Osi, Tuck etc. Treating your players well does not mean you aren't making the correct business decisions.
Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
I think they opted not to objectively assess Eli's performance. Further, I think they opted not to follow McAdoo's advice to pursue Mahomes or draft a QB in 2018 because it would threaten Eli.
I don't think their decisions were about trying to build the best football team they could.
Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
RE: RE: If you had a time machine would you go back and trade for Mahomes?
If your answer is yes, then how do you account for the human element in kicking Eli to the curb?
This a bit tricky because of hindsight, no? To answer you question with the benefit of hindsight, absolutely the Giants should have made every effort to trade up for Mahomes and dealt with Eli then. A team can deal with the human element while also making the correct decision. The Giants did it with Armstead, Osi, Tuck etc. Treating your players well does not mean you aren't making the correct business decisions.
But it's not hindsight; the Giants' has coach at the time saw it and lobbied to trade up for Mahomes. McAdoo had the double benefit of being in the building but not having the sentimental tie to the Super Bowls. He knew Eli was in decline and he wanted to do something about it.
I think they opted not to objectively assess Eli's performance. Further, I think they opted not to follow McAdoo's advice to pursue Mahomes or draft a QB in 2018 because it would threaten Eli.
I don't think their decisions were about trying to build the best football team they could.
It's certainly possible, and if so, that was the wrong way to go about it. You and I see it differently though.
If I had to choose which player(s) to feel for, it's the guys who busted their ass to make the team and play at/near the minimum. I wish those guys had the chance to make the playoffs or play in a meaningful game after Halloween.
In real terms, the 2019 Eli Manning Goodbye Yellow Brick Road tour kept 17M in his pocket, and out of the pockets of other football players. And none of those other players made anywhere near the ~quarter of a billion Manning made.
RE: RE: RE: If you had a time machine would you go back and trade for Mahomes?
If your answer is yes, then how do you account for the human element in kicking Eli to the curb?
This a bit tricky because of hindsight, no? To answer you question with the benefit of hindsight, absolutely the Giants should have made every effort to trade up for Mahomes and dealt with Eli then. A team can deal with the human element while also making the correct decision. The Giants did it with Armstead, Osi, Tuck etc. Treating your players well does not mean you aren't making the correct business decisions.
But it's not hindsight; the Giants' has coach at the time saw it and lobbied to trade up for Mahomes. McAdoo had the double benefit of being in the building but not having the sentimental tie to the Super Bowls. He knew Eli was in decline and he wanted to do something about it.
Mac liked him, who else in the organization liked him? The Giants have said that their process is collaborative. If Mac liked Mahomes, but others weren't so sure, especially with the price it would have taken to move up, I can see why he was overruled. It is hindsight because had the Giants front office known the player they would be getting in Mahomes there really would be no reason to not trade up no matter the cost. At the time, Mahomes was not one of the 'sure things'.
If I had to choose which player(s) to feel for, it's the guys who busted their ass to make the team and play at/near the minimum. I wish those guys had the chance to make the playoffs or play in a meaningful game after Halloween.
In real terms, the 2019 Eli Manning Goodbye Yellow Brick Road tour kept 17M in his pocket, and out of the pockets of other football players. And none of those other players made anywhere near the ~quarter of a billion Manning made.
I am not telling fans who to feel for. I am saying that teams typically deal with iconic players a bit differently than your typical player. Now that does not mean they should give them a farewell tour, but they may take a bit more time laying the ground-work for that player's release or trade.
Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
I think, if you're willing to contort your argument to fit your belief (rather than the other way around), then you're right that we aren't likely to agree.
If Daboll was such a big Shepard fan, he sure had a weird way of showing it, considering Shepard's snap count reflects that he was the least involved WR on the roster, and it was a pretty stark indication. Here are the WR snap counts (on offense only) for the year:
Parris Campbell wound up basically a forgotten man by the halfway point, and even he had 46% more snaps than Shepard this past season. If you're unwilling to take that as evidence that there was a courtesy passenger on the 2023 Giants roster, I don't have any other way to convince you.
If I had to choose which player(s) to feel for, it's the guys who busted their ass to make the team and play at/near the minimum. I wish those guys had the chance to make the playoffs or play in a meaningful game after Halloween.
In real terms, the 2019 Eli Manning Goodbye Yellow Brick Road tour kept 17M in his pocket, and out of the pockets of other football players. And none of those other players made anywhere near the ~quarter of a billion Manning made.
I am not telling fans who to feel for. I am saying that teams typically deal with iconic players a bit differently than your typical player. Now that does not mean they should give them a farewell tour, but they may take a bit more time laying the ground-work for that player's release or trade.
That's why I pointed to the Packers, who are the gold standard in the NFL as an organization.
They also had no problem drafting quarterbacks in round one, while they had iconic quarterbacks on the roster. It even pissed the icons off. Those icons even went and played for the Jets!
The Packers have had 5 losing seasons since Favre became the starter in 1992. The Giants have 5 in the last 6.
Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
I think, if you're willing to contort your argument to fit your belief (rather than the other way around), then you're right that we aren't likely to agree.
If Daboll was such a big Shepard fan, he sure had a weird way of showing it, considering Shepard's snap count reflects that he was the least involved WR on the roster, and it was a pretty stark indication. Here are the WR snap counts (on offense only) for the year:
Parris Campbell wound up basically a forgotten man by the halfway point, and even he had 46% more snaps than Shepard this past season. If you're unwilling to take that as evidence that there was a courtesy passenger on the 2023 Giants roster, I don't have any other way to convince you.
I am contorting my argument to fit my belief? Ok. If that was the case, then this farewell tour stuff would be an open and closed case. You see it that way, I do not.
If I had to choose which player(s) to feel for, it's the guys who busted their ass to make the team and play at/near the minimum. I wish those guys had the chance to make the playoffs or play in a meaningful game after Halloween.
In real terms, the 2019 Eli Manning Goodbye Yellow Brick Road tour kept 17M in his pocket, and out of the pockets of other football players. And none of those other players made anywhere near the ~quarter of a billion Manning made.
I am not telling fans who to feel for. I am saying that teams typically deal with iconic players a bit differently than your typical player. Now that does not mean they should give them a farewell tour, but they may take a bit more time laying the ground-work for that player's release or trade.
That's why I pointed to the Packers, who are the gold standard in the NFL as an organization.
They also had no problem drafting quarterbacks in round one, while they had iconic quarterbacks on the roster. It even pissed the icons off. Those icons even went and played for the Jets!
The Packers have had 5 losing seasons since Favre became the starter in 1992. The Giants have 5 in the last 6.
Those two quarterbacks seemed to become problems for the organization. Perhaps that helped move them out?
Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
I think, if you're willing to contort your argument to fit your belief (rather than the other way around), then you're right that we aren't likely to agree.
If Daboll was such a big Shepard fan, he sure had a weird way of showing it, considering Shepard's snap count reflects that he was the least involved WR on the roster, and it was a pretty stark indication. Here are the WR snap counts (on offense only) for the year:
Parris Campbell wound up basically a forgotten man by the halfway point, and even he had 46% more snaps than Shepard this past season. If you're unwilling to take that as evidence that there was a courtesy passenger on the 2023 Giants roster, I don't have any other way to convince you.
I am contorting my argument to fit my belief? Ok. If that was the case, then this farewell tour stuff would be an open and closed case. You see it that way, I do not.
Bold above and clipped out below is specifically what I'm referring to as the contortion:
Quote:
I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster.
If Daboll was such a big fan of having Shepard on the roster, someone should have reminded him on game day.
Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
I think, if you're willing to contort your argument to fit your belief (rather than the other way around), then you're right that we aren't likely to agree.
If Daboll was such a big Shepard fan, he sure had a weird way of showing it, considering Shepard's snap count reflects that he was the least involved WR on the roster, and it was a pretty stark indication. Here are the WR snap counts (on offense only) for the year:
Parris Campbell wound up basically a forgotten man by the halfway point, and even he had 46% more snaps than Shepard this past season. If you're unwilling to take that as evidence that there was a courtesy passenger on the 2023 Giants roster, I don't have any other way to convince you.
I am contorting my argument to fit my belief? Ok. If that was the case, then this farewell tour stuff would be an open and closed case. You see it that way, I do not.
Bold above and clipped out below is specifically what I'm referring to as the contortion:
Quote:
I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster.
If Daboll was such a big fan of having Shepard on the roster, someone should have reminded him on game day.
But not all players play the same amount, he liked him as a reserve who may have added locker room leadership. What was Shepard making last year? Was it an unusual amount for a player like him?
Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
I think they opted not to objectively assess Eli's performance. Further, I think they opted not to follow McAdoo's advice to pursue Mahomes or draft a QB in 2018 because it would threaten Eli.
I don't think their decisions were about trying to build the best football team they could.
YUP...
This ownership -- and that is who has the noose around the neck and hand up the GM puppets ass -- prioritizes sentimentality first and winning somewhere past PR and short term season ticket sales.
If a buffoon like McAdoo and also Reese could see Mahommes was someone to trade for and they were stamped out by ownership, then what reason do we have to believe that ownership aren't doing the exact same thing currently to stand on Schoen and Daboll's heads?
thread that didn't age well for a few posters but I will give credit where credit is due- BW's post though about Eli ends up being the perfect analogy for Jones last year and then off season. This is exactly what happened with Jones last year.:
Bill L...
bw in dc : 3/19/2019 3:35 pm : link
Here's my bigger fear - actually winning with Eli.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
Thanks. Fortunately, this draft is another opportunity to correct the error of keeping Jones.
Starting March 13th (free agency begins) to April 27th (last day of the draft), this will be the most critical 45 days of Schoen's tenure as GM. And that will reveal how Schoen feels about his QB.
That's why I pointed to the Packers, who are the gold standard in the NFL as an organization.
They also had no problem drafting quarterbacks in round one, while they had iconic quarterbacks on the roster. It even pissed the icons off. Those icons even went and played for the Jets!
The Packers have had 5 losing seasons since Favre became the starter in 1992. The Giants have 5 in the last 6.
Those two quarterbacks seemed to become problems for the organization. Perhaps that helped move them out?
If memory serves us correctly when did Favre and Rodgers become problems for the organization?
Also, did either ever get embroiled in a scheme to rip off fans with the equipment staff?
What about Osi and Tuck? The Giants didn't have any problem dumping Osi after 2012 (age 31) and Tuck after 2013 (age 30). Those guys were on both Super Bowl teams.
And while we're at it, what about the human element for Coughlin and especially Reese? Why was it ok to unceremoniously dump them? Coughlin got a press conference but we all saw how he felt about John Mara that day. And Reese...he got a cardboard box to carry his shit out the door - and hasn't been able to get a job since. Wonder why?
I really wish the team had been sold when Wellington died. It doesn't appear his children were adequately trained to take on this responsibility.
I think they opted not to objectively assess Eli's performance. Further, I think they opted not to follow McAdoo's advice to pursue Mahomes or draft a QB in 2018 because it would threaten Eli.
I don't think their decisions were about trying to build the best football team they could.
YUP...
This ownership -- and that is who has the noose around the neck and hand up the GM puppets ass -- prioritizes sentimentality first and winning somewhere past PR and short term season ticket sales.
If a buffoon like McAdoo and also Reese could see Mahommes was someone to trade for and they were stamped out by ownership, then what reason do we have to believe that ownership aren't doing the exact same thing currently to stand on Schoen and Daboll's heads?
The funniest part of this is they still get bad PR and probably worse ticket sales using this approach.
I'm increasingly convinced they do this stuff for the approval of 20 percent of the fanbase and supporting guys they personally like (Barkley, Shepard, Jones) and literally everything else is secondary. I guess being known as an organization that treats its players well is the only benefit.
It's important to note something the Packers do which you could argue is not correct, they don't start their QBs immediately. Both Rodgers and Love sat multiple years prior to starting. But, the Packers draft first round QBs when they don't need a QB.
To think we've got people on BBI, who STILL do not want to draft a QB in the first round.
I really like the Packers model. They've never "needed" a QB in the last 25 plus years. They also got ahead of the 5th year option decision with Love and extended him.
Terps -- I believe it was the poster Chris in Philly who said it best. Something to the effect of "Manning deserves to retire when he wants to."
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
It's important to note something the Packers do which you could argue is not correct, they don't start their QBs immediately. Both Rodgers and Love sat multiple years prior to starting. But, the Packers draft first round QBs when they don't need a QB.
I'd argue until a fainted that picking a QB in round one before you need it, is the right approach : )
Terps -- I believe it was the poster Chris in Philly who said it best. Something to the effect of "Manning deserves to retire when he wants to."
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
Eli gets to retire when he wants. Osi (who was there before Eli) and Tuck? Fuck them. And fuck Coughlin and Reese.
But hey the Giants are a class organization that treats its people right.
Terps -- I believe it was the poster Chris in Philly who said it best. Something to the effect of "Manning deserves to retire when he wants to."
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
Yes, all Manning got out of those extra 20 games between 2018 and 2019 losing to the point of landing on a .500 record, which is going to be an obstacle for his Hall-of-Fame nomination.
And if it's so that McAdoo and Reese both thought they should try to trade for Mahomes, then what voices overruled them?
Who in the org chart is qualified to counter both the head coach and GM on a QB decision?
THIS is the smoking gun.
The same story has occurred over several regimes.
Same shit different day. Same owners. Gee... hard to put the dots together....
Of all the many back-stories I would love to have more information on, what actually went down with the McAdoo-Mahomes discussion may be at the top of the list.
If you want to talk about a guy who got screwed by this organization, McAdoo is right at the top, too.
Terps -- I believe it was the poster Chris in Philly who said it best. Something to the effect of "Manning deserves to retire when he wants to."
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
Eli gets to retire when he wants. Osi (who was there before Eli) and Tuck? Fuck them. And fuck Coughlin and Reese.
But hey the Giants are a class organization that treats its people right.
LOL the only thing missing in that Coughlin "retirement" press conference was an animatronic lion to feed Tom to at the end.
Terps -- I believe it was the poster Chris in Philly who said it best. Something to the effect of "Manning deserves to retire when he wants to."
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
Eli gets to retire when he wants. Osi (who was there before Eli) and Tuck? Fuck them. And fuck Coughlin and Reese.
But hey the Giants are a class organization that treats its people right.
People will frame this whole scenario as John not wanting to follow his father's footsteps in cutting Simms. But guess what: cutting Simms was the right decision! That 1993 team was full of aging vets and was in the process of being turned over. The reason everyone got up in arms was due to the Giants - as always - having a lame and half-assed succession plan.
Of seeing John Mara constantly on the practice field, and Joe Schoen frequently in the locker room, is that the guys tasked with tough management decisions about the roster on the Giants are too close to their players. There's a fine line with being a great place to play - and the Giants deserve credit for that - versus being a place where your affinity to the players gets in the way of actually winning.
Not enough to piss and moan about today, we need 5 years ago. Thanks for the entertainment. You probably think you look intelligent rather than small too, lol.
That's why I pointed to the Packers, who are the gold standard in the NFL as an organization.
They also had no problem drafting quarterbacks in round one, while they had iconic quarterbacks on the roster. It even pissed the icons off. Those icons even went and played for the Jets!
The Packers have had 5 losing seasons since Favre became the starter in 1992. The Giants have 5 in the last 6.
Those two quarterbacks seemed to become problems for the organization. Perhaps that helped move them out?
If memory serves us correctly when did Favre and Rodgers become problems for the organization?
Also, did either ever get embroiled in a scheme to rip off fans with the equipment staff?
If I remember correctly, there were rifts with Favre and Ted Thompson. Weren't there also rifts with Rodgers and the front office and coaching staff?
As for your second question, is that a serious question or are you particapting in the same crabby responses that you complained about the other day?
Not enough to piss and moan about today, we need 5 years ago. Thanks for the entertainment. You probably think you look intelligent rather than small too, lol.
And you are too dim to see the connection between five years ago and today. Lol.
Not enough to piss and moan about today, we need 5 years ago. Thanks for the entertainment. You probably think you look intelligent rather than small too, lol.
I think you're a particularly unpleasant member of this community. Can you please agree to not post on the threads I start, and we both promise to not interact with each other?
the Giants organization failed Eli Manning after the second Super Bowl by allowing the offensive line to deteriorate. They then decided that Eli as the QB was getting old and a newly drafted QB could overcome any problems on the o-line. Enter DJ. But sadly he was not able to overcome the problems the porous o-line created.
But surely the answer is to draft a new QB because he'll be able to figure out how to complete throws with a defender in his face within 2 seconds of the snap!
What about Osi and Tuck? The Giants didn't have any problem dumping Osi after 2012 (age 31) and Tuck after 2013 (age 30). Those guys were on both Super Bowl teams.
And while we're at it, what about the human element for Coughlin and especially Reese? Why was it ok to unceremoniously dump them? Coughlin got a press conference but we all saw how he felt about John Mara that day. And Reese...he got a cardboard box to carry his shit out the door - and hasn't been able to get a job since. Wonder why?
I really wish the team had been sold when Wellington died. It doesn't appear his children were adequately trained to take on this responsibility.
I can't remember, were Tuck and Osi 'unceremoniously' dumped? I don't recall that.
Is it possible that Jerry Reese has not got another job because maybe he does want to be a GM or other teams around the league don't see the same value that you do?
Not everything is conspiracy.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If you had a time machine would you go back and trade for Mahomes?
If your answer is yes, then how do you account for the human element in kicking Eli to the curb?
This a bit tricky because of hindsight, no? To answer you question with the benefit of hindsight, absolutely the Giants should have made every effort to trade up for Mahomes and dealt with Eli then. A team can deal with the human element while also making the correct decision. The Giants did it with Armstead, Osi, Tuck etc. Treating your players well does not mean you aren't making the correct business decisions.
But it's not hindsight; the Giants' has coach at the time saw it and lobbied to trade up for Mahomes. McAdoo had the double benefit of being in the building but not having the sentimental tie to the Super Bowls. He knew Eli was in decline and he wanted to do something about it.
Mac liked him, who else in the organization liked him? The Giants have said that their process is collaborative. If Mac liked Mahomes, but others weren't so sure, especially with the price it would have taken to move up, I can see why he was overruled. It is hindsight because had the Giants front office known the player they would be getting in Mahomes there really would be no reason to not trade up no matter the cost. At the time, Mahomes was not one of the 'sure things'.
IMO, Mahomes would not be the player he is with KC behind the Giants OL.
If memory serves us correctly when did Favre and Rodgers become problems for the organization?
Also, did either ever get embroiled in a scheme to rip off fans with the equipment staff?
If I remember correctly, there were rifts with Favre and Ted Thompson. Weren't there also rifts with Rodgers and the front office and coaching staff?
As for your second question, is that a serious question or are you particapting in the same crabby responses that you complained about the other day?
Completely serious question. If the debate is about causing problems for the organization, I found it very problematic Manning hustled fans and Mara had to payoff a lawsuit.
As to Favre and Rodgers, my recollection is those rifts took on legs because the team drafted their replacements, but I could certainly be wrong.
I believe it was reported on draft day by both Adam Schefter and Anita Marks that the Giants were trying to trade up for Mahomes. McAdoo was the one who reportedly was pounding the table for him, he was at his pro day.
Obviously the Chiefs were more aggressive than the Giants, but was it ever reported that Mara vetoed going to get Mahomes? I always assumed they tried to move up for him but KC just got it done.
It's just not the same as every other position in football...maybe even sport.
I look at it as comparable to a number 1 option Giannis/Jokic/Curry type in basketball and a number 10 Messi/Mbappe type in soccer.
European soccer clubs are notoriously ruthless and unsentimental. If you want to be a top player, you're either winning your league or competing for the Champions League title or teams will look to replace you. There's competition around every corner.
There more leeway in basketball, but even then, if you fashion yourself an alpha, number 1 option, and you can't get past the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs, you're on your way to becoming trade bait and a number 2 or 3 option on a better team.
In the end, quarterbacks often get more privilege then the above, particularly if you play QB for the Giants.
Jerry Reese was GM for two championships and was fired
If memory serves us correctly when did Favre and Rodgers become problems for the organization?
Also, did either ever get embroiled in a scheme to rip off fans with the equipment staff?
If I remember correctly, there were rifts with Favre and Ted Thompson. Weren't there also rifts with Rodgers and the front office and coaching staff?
As for your second question, is that a serious question or are you particapting in the same crabby responses that you complained about the other day?
Completely serious question. If the debate is about causing problems for the organization, I found it very problematic Manning hustled fans and Mara had to payoff a lawsuit.
As to Favre and Rodgers, my recollection is those rifts took on legs because the team drafted their replacements, but I could certainly be wrong.
That situation with Manning was a terrible look. If my recollection on Favre and Rodgers are right, I think there is a difference with a player at odds with the front office and coaching staff than a player who had a one-time error in judgement. One of those can be one and done, while the other can be an ongoing problem which could lead to a trade.
I think they opted not to objectively assess Eli's performance. Further, I think they opted not to follow McAdoo's advice to pursue Mahomes or draft a QB in 2018 because it would threaten Eli.
I don't think their decisions were about trying to build the best football team they could.
YUP...
This ownership -- and that is who has the noose around the neck and hand up the GM puppets ass -- prioritizes sentimentality first and winning somewhere past PR and short term season ticket sales.
If a buffoon like McAdoo and also Reese could see Mahommes was someone to trade for and they were stamped out by ownership, then what reason do we have to believe that ownership aren't doing the exact same thing currently to stand on Schoen and Daboll's heads?
The funniest part of this is they still get bad PR and probably worse ticket sales using this approach.
I'm increasingly convinced they do this stuff for the approval of 20 percent of the fanbase and supporting guys they personally like (Barkley, Shepard, Jones) and literally everything else is secondary. I guess being known as an organization that treats its players well is the only benefit.
Exactly. I think this is pretty close to the truth.
It is hilarious but this half measures stuff is what keeps us embroiled in an endless cycle of mediocrity.
News flash to the Maras, winning is what fans want. Not to watch nice guys that we like get pummeled on 5-12 teams.
Terps -- I believe it was the poster Chris in Philly who said it best. Something to the effect of "Manning deserves to retire when he wants to."
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
Yippee.
I have incredibly fond memories of 2017-2019. Oh wait, I don't remember anything except Eli's last game and being thankful he didn't have to get murdered behind a joke of an o-line and play on this shit team any longer.
But at least we got to see him hang it up on his terms while we delayed a rebuild and toiled in mediocrity for 2-3 years more than necessary.
And support that Eli should have been able to out on his terms are beyond me. If you are a fan of the Giants and not just a specific player on the Giants, you are paying for that Giants running business based on family nepotism and emotion currently. The Giants qb drafted 6th overall puts up passing numbers that may have gotten him benched in the AFL/NFL merger days. That is as a direct result of the botched Eli transition.
Eli was/is an all time great Giant. That doesn't mean the organization handled the transition well. If you are more a fan of nostalgia than current/future even, than how the Giants operate aligns very closely with your views.
Terps -- I believe it was the poster Chris in Philly who said it best. Something to the effect of "Manning deserves to retire when he wants to."
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
Eli gets to retire when he wants. Osi (who was there before Eli) and Tuck? Fuck them. And fuck Coughlin and Reese.
But hey the Giants are a class organization that treats its people right.
Perhaps Mara has "Eyes Wide Shut" secret mixers in an underground lair below Metlife Stadium with his favorites Eli, Jones, Barkley, Shepard etc.. It's an exclusive club according to Mara's type. And everyone has incriminating evidence on each other, hence the kid gloves.
I believe it was reported on draft day by both Adam Schefter and Anita Marks that the Giants were trying to trade up for Mahomes. McAdoo was the one who reportedly was pounding the table for him, he was at his pro day.
Obviously the Chiefs were more aggressive than the Giants, but was it ever reported that Mara vetoed going to get Mahomes? I always assumed they tried to move up for him but KC just got it done.
Considering where we were drafting that year, higher than the Chiefs, we could have offered a better package to the Bills to move him.
We were 23rd in the first round. The Chiefs were 27th.
And if it's so that McAdoo and Reese both thought they should try to trade for Mahomes, then what voices overruled them?
Who in the org chart is qualified to counter both the head coach and GM on a QB decision?
THIS is the smoking gun.
The same story has occurred over several regimes.
Same shit different day. Same owners. Gee... hard to put the dots together....
Of all the many back-stories I would love to have more information on, what actually went down with the McAdoo-Mahomes discussion may be at the top of the list.
If you want to talk about a guy who got screwed by this organization, McAdoo is right at the top, too.
Agreed.
As much as McAdoo was made out to be a fool and a doofus in an oversized suit, ironically he was the only in that building who demonstrated CEO traits. Unemotional in regard to decisions, and improving the bottom line on the field even if it meant doing the hard things. Mara and the entire ownership could have learned something, but they didn't, and still haven't.
If we had more of McAdoo's mentality we would be winners instead of the league's bottom feeders. Try to reconcile that.
Of seeing John Mara constantly on the practice field, and Joe Schoen frequently in the locker room, is that the guys tasked with tough management decisions about the roster on the Giants are too close to their players. There's a fine line with being a great place to play - and the Giants deserve credit for that - versus being a place where your affinity to the players gets in the way of actually winning.
Yup.
You can't and shouldn't be friends with everyone in business. It's the same reason they say working with family is something you should avoid in business if you can help it. It gets messy and clouds your judgement and you feel you cannot make the right decision because the relationship is then threatened. The funny thing is the Giants have made it a culture that everyone becomes their family!
This is the Giants to a T. Relationships over results. The Giants way.
RE: Jerry Reese was GM for two championships and was fired
There’s a reason he hasn’t been a serious hire anywhere since his firing.
I am not a McAdoo guy, but the way Mara fired him was bush league.
Mara made him (and Reese) the fall guy for the Eli benching. In fact, Mara asked McAdoo and Reese to draw up their plan how the Eli benching would work. He signed-off on it. But when the media and fans became emotional basket cases when Eli cried on TV, Mara quickly distanced him from his decision and drove the bus after he threw him under it.
the Giants organization failed Eli Manning after the second Super Bowl by allowing the offensive line to deteriorate. They then decided that Eli as the QB was getting old and a newly drafted QB could overcome any problems on the o-line. Enter DJ. But sadly he was not able to overcome the problems the porous o-line created.
But surely the answer is to draft a new QB because he'll be able to figure out how to complete throws with a defender in his face within 2 seconds of the snap!
You make too much sense for this board.
You wouldn't be able to identify "sense" with both hands and a proctologist's assistance.
McAdoo was canned even before the benching. Players had quit on him. He lost the locker room. And let’s be honest - he sucked that year as a coach. He was suppose to be an offensive guy and it got worse when he became coach.
Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
I think, if you're willing to contort your argument to fit your belief (rather than the other way around), then you're right that we aren't likely to agree.
If Daboll was such a big Shepard fan, he sure had a weird way of showing it, considering Shepard's snap count reflects that he was the least involved WR on the roster, and it was a pretty stark indication. Here are the WR snap counts (on offense only) for the year:
Parris Campbell wound up basically a forgotten man by the halfway point, and even he had 46% more snaps than Shepard this past season. If you're unwilling to take that as evidence that there was a courtesy passenger on the 2023 Giants roster, I don't have any other way to convince you.
I am contorting my argument to fit my belief? Ok. If that was the case, then this farewell tour stuff would be an open and closed case. You see it that way, I do not.
Bold above and clipped out below is specifically what I'm referring to as the contortion:
Quote:
I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster.
If Daboll was such a big fan of having Shepard on the roster, someone should have reminded him on game day.
But not all players play the same amount, he liked him as a reserve who may have added locker room leadership. What was Shepard making last year? Was it an unusual amount for a player like him?
How many punts did he return when the Giants needed a punt returner and had to cut Crowder to keep Shepard?
More importantly, how many sacred cows will need to be kept on the roster over a long enough period of time before you at least consider the possibility of a weepy-eyed team president asking the GM and HC if they can find a spot on the roster for [insert player here] because it would really mean a lot to the fans?
There’s a reason he hasn’t been a serious hire anywhere since his firing.
I am not a McAdoo guy, but the way Mara fired him was bush league.
Mara made him (and Reese) the fall guy for the Eli benching. In fact, Mara asked McAdoo and Reese to draw up their plan how the Eli benching would work. He signed-off on it. But when the media and fans became emotional basket cases when Eli cried on TV, Mara quickly distanced him from his decision and drove the bus after he threw him under it.
And support that Eli should have been able to out on his terms are beyond me. If you are a fan of the Giants and not just a specific player on the Giants, you are paying for that Giants running business based on family nepotism and emotion currently. The Giants qb drafted 6th overall puts up passing numbers that may have gotten him benched in the AFL/NFL merger days. That is as a direct result of the botched Eli transition.
Eli was/is an all time great Giant. That doesn't mean the organization handled the transition well. If you are more a fan of nostalgia than current/future even, than how the Giants operate aligns very closely with your views.
To be fair, the org failed Eli with what they put in front of him in the last years of his prime. I think everyone can agree to that. Tough to transition to a new guy when you keep trotting out one of the worst OLs in the league and a revolving door of coaches and schemes. Ugh. This team is still a mess. I hope Schoen and Daboll have a rebound year and actually start pushing this team forward again. Build the lines, build the depth to adequate, get another pass rusher.... a real TE. And yes, a QB as well if you have real conviction.
McAdoo was canned even before the benching. Players had quit on him. He lost the locker room. And let’s be honest - he sucked that year as a coach. He was suppose to be an offensive guy and it got worse when he became coach.
The 2017 season was a complete disaster from almost every angle - injuries, Eli hit his expiration date, immature players, etc.
If you want to lay all of the blame at McAdoo's doorstep, fine. I just think it was more complicated than that and Mara was too daft to see that Eli did hit his expiration date...
McAdoo was canned even before the benching. Players had quit on him. He lost the locker room. And let’s be honest - he sucked that year as a coach. He was suppose to be an offensive guy and it got worse when he became coach.
The 2017 season was a complete disaster from almost every angle - injuries, Eli hit his expiration date, immature players, etc.
If you want to lay all of the blame at McAdoo's doorstep, fine. I just think it was more complicated than that and Mara was too daft to see that Eli did hit his expiration date...
Could be. But I was also ok cleaning house from Eli, to Reese, to McAdoo.
The problem was we stuck with one, hired a worse GM, and still drafted shitty players.
Johnathan Casillas (remember him?!!? :) ) made an interesting comment a number of years ago in one of his interviews.
He made the comment that Davis Webb was drafted with no input from Macadoo. He even commented Macadoo had never even seem him throw
This was pretty eye opening to me - taking a QB anywhere in the draft, I'd think the head coaches input would rank high? (especially for Macadoo - who at the time had the reputation of being some kind of QB whisperer.)
It was also reported that Davis Webb was a favorite of the Chris Mara faction of the scouting department.
A lot of people lost their jobs in the pursuit of getting Manning another swing. A lot of people have lost their job trying to get a swing out of Jones.
or anyone selling Quaker Oats on tv right now? Eli is a special case. He cant be used as an example. Maybe Namath but I was maybe an infant but probably not born yet.
or anyone selling Quaker Oats on tv right now? Eli is a special case. He cant be used as an example. Maybe Namath but I was maybe an infant but probably not born yet.
What do Quaker Oats have to do with winning football games?
or anyone selling Quaker Oats on tv right now? Eli is a special case. He cant be used as an example. Maybe Namath but I was maybe an infant but probably not born yet.
What do Quaker Oats have to do with winning football games?
Absolutely nothing, but this is why Eli cant be used as a comparison to any other situation. It may have caused bad decisions to be made, but not in a vacuum.
A lot of people lost their jobs in the pursuit of getting Manning another swing. A lot of people have lost their job trying to get a swing out of Jones.
The team has sucked Christian, not just the QB. I know you know this. Our roster still isn't all that close to any of the top 10 or even 12 teams in the playoffs this year. We don't have enough horses, especially on the OL and TE for the offense. Since forever it feels.
or anyone selling Quaker Oats on tv right now? Eli is a special case. He cant be used as an example. Maybe Namath but I was maybe an infant but probably not born yet.
What do Quaker Oats have to do with winning football games?
They are delicious, rich in nutrient and fiber, antioxidants. Should be part of any balanced diet. What do they NOT have to do with winning football games?
As much as McAdoo was made out to be a fool and a doofus in an oversized suit, ironically he was the only in that building who demonstrated CEO traits
Maybe he should have been a CEO then, because his offense in 2016 and 17 blew chunks.
Where is he now?
The point is if he was allowed actually make decisions and draft Mahommes like he wanted that's more balls and CEO than Mara's demonstrated.
And we would have been far better off for it as a team. Instead, we get to see Sterling Shepard attempt to catch touchdowns in his final game as we finish another losing season.
or anyone selling Quaker Oats on tv right now? Eli is a special case. He cant be used as an example. Maybe Namath but I was maybe an infant but probably not born yet.
What do Quaker Oats have to do with winning football games?
Terps you are missing the point.
Franks Red Hot. Toyota. It all equates to winning football games, don't you see?
As much as McAdoo was made out to be a fool and a doofus in an oversized suit, ironically he was the only in that building who demonstrated CEO traits
Maybe he should have been a CEO then, because his offense in 2016 and 17 blew chunks.
Where is he now?
Mike Sullivan was the offensive coordinator in 2016 and 2017.
Still his offense now, c'mon.
Bullshit. Was it the same offense as 2014 and 2015?
And before you try to say that that was Coughlin's offense, did 2014 and 2015 resemble the Gilbride years in any way?
Whose defense did the Giants execute in 1986 and 1990? Was that Belichick's defense or Parcells'?
Mike Sullivan was the OC in 2016 and 2017. Not coincidentally, Mike Sullivan was also dreadful in his prior OC job as well. Because Mike Sullivan (a Coughlin disciple, so that's probably why people don't like to shit on him) fucking sucks as an NFL OC. And he's not so great as a QB coach either, as evidenced by his work over the past couple of years with Kenny Pickett.
McAdoo, on the other hand, was a bad HC, but he only got a HC opportunity in the first place because he was a good OC. The 2016 and 2017 offense is Sullivan's. The numbers support that if you go look at Tampa's offense under Schiano (when Sullivan was OC) and the Giants' offense in 2016 and 2017.
or anyone selling Quaker Oats on tv right now? Eli is a special case. He cant be used as an example. Maybe Namath but I was maybe an infant but probably not born yet.
What do Quaker Oats have to do with winning football games?
They are delicious, rich in nutrient and fiber, antioxidants. Should be part of any balanced diet. What do they NOT have to do with winning football games?
gamble and won. That game could have been 28-0 Buffalo, but they had never seen it before. Frank Reich, who i randomly played golf with, said it just confused the shit out of everyone By the time they figured it out, the Giants drained the clock so much. Did they the have a chance to win at the end?
offense was sort of genius but the players couldn't pull off all that pre-snap movement most of them time. I actually was able to buy a real playbook on ebay 20 years ago.
no player (regardless of his accomplishments) deserves to go out on his own terms, if those terms are at odds with winning.
The fact that some Giants' fans then (and even now) preferred a few years of warm and fuzzy goodbyes to Eli, rather than taking steps to get better, boggles the mind.
There is literally ZERO evidence of an Air Coryell influence
Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
I think, if you're willing to contort your argument to fit your belief (rather than the other way around), then you're right that we aren't likely to agree.
If Daboll was such a big Shepard fan, he sure had a weird way of showing it, considering Shepard's snap count reflects that he was the least involved WR on the roster, and it was a pretty stark indication. Here are the WR snap counts (on offense only) for the year:
Parris Campbell wound up basically a forgotten man by the halfway point, and even he had 46% more snaps than Shepard this past season. If you're unwilling to take that as evidence that there was a courtesy passenger on the 2023 Giants roster, I don't have any other way to convince you.
I am contorting my argument to fit my belief? Ok. If that was the case, then this farewell tour stuff would be an open and closed case. You see it that way, I do not.
Bold above and clipped out below is specifically what I'm referring to as the contortion:
Quote:
I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster.
If Daboll was such a big fan of having Shepard on the roster, someone should have reminded him on game day.
But not all players play the same amount, he liked him as a reserve who may have added locker room leadership. What was Shepard making last year? Was it an unusual amount for a player like him?
How many punts did he return when the Giants needed a punt returner and had to cut Crowder to keep Shepard?
More importantly, how many sacred cows will need to be kept on the roster over a long enough period of time before you at least consider the possibility of a weepy-eyed team president asking the GM and HC if they can find a spot on the roster for [insert player here] because it would really mean a lot to the fans?
I don’t know why they cut Crowder. I never once said that it is not a possibility that the team is giving these players farewell tours. I consider what people tell me even if I don’t agree with it. Me not seeing something the same as you does not mean I think it is impossible or wrong. This whole discussion started out with posters saying successful teams take the human element out of the roster building equation. I strongly disagree with that. Some teams navigate it better than others. I think for the most part, teams care about their players and I think that is the right thing to do.
It's especially funny because I never said "NO LINK" (or "KNOW LINK") - I said "zero evidence of Coryell influence" which is pretty clearly about the current offensive scheme that the coach uses, not the evolution of modern football.
There are elements of the single wing in modern football also, but I wouldn't call any current coach a Pop Warner disciple.
It's especially funny because I never said "NO LINK" (or "KNOW LINK") - I said "zero evidence of Coryell influence" which is pretty clearly about the current offensive scheme that the coach uses, not the evolution of modern football.
There are elements of the single wing in modern football also, but I wouldn't call any current coach a Pop Warner disciple.
you didn't say link? But single wing, not at all. There are 11 dudes on the field so we can agree on that.
Original point, those two coaches had no innovative different playbooks.
Fassel actually did because of that crazy pre-snap shit different story. It wasn't "different" just meant to confusing from the staring point. He was actually trying to do what defenses do.
Ultimately, Mara succeeded at the one thing he cared the most about -- Eli Manning's legacy.
He never had to cut him, he never had to trade him, and he only ever had to replace with a guy who could be his stand-in.
A not so small part of the fan base has pity for Manning. Imagine that. He made 230M, won 2 Super Bowls, left the game with his health, and is famous beyond measure.
Coughlin was unceremoniously dumped, Reese was setup and dumped, Gilbride was pushed out, McAdoo was emasculated and dumped.
The two most gracious exits ended up being Gettleman of all people and Manning.
Ultimately, Mara succeeded at the one thing he cared the most about -- Eli Manning's legacy.
He never had to cut him, he never had to trade him, and he only ever had to replace with a guy who could be his stand-in.
A not so small part of the fan base has pity for Manning. Imagine that. He made 230M, won 2 Super Bowls, left the game with his health, and is famous beyond measure.
Coughlin was unceremoniously dumped, Reese was setup and dumped, Gilbride was pushed out, McAdoo was emasculated and dumped.
The two most gracious exits ended up being Gettleman of all people and Manning.
The Gettleman exit I'll never understand. In trying to understand it, I can only speculate that Gettleman's health, age and fan ridicule allowed for the "retirement" and family photos.
I don't think Coughlin got a raw deal. The team went 6-10, 7-9 & 7-9. Reese got a longer stay than Coughlin which I don't think was outrageous given Reese's age.
Coughlin also ran to the Eagles not even 5 minutes after being out of the building.
I believe Coughlin deserved to lose his job, but the retirement charade was embarrassing to him.
I also believe Reese deserved to lose his job after the 2015 season, but the "fix it or else" and Manning charade was embarrassing to him.
The Giants had a lot to learn about just telling people thank you, and moving on.
Very well said. The Mara win mandate for Reese in 2015 was incredibly short sighted. There was never a long term plan.
Mara needed to have a honest conversation with himself after 2013. This is when the win or else mandates began for Coughlin and the staff. This is when the scapegoating really began as well. It would have been better to overhaul everything after 2013 as opposed to scapegoating someone each season without really changing anything.
one of the amazing things with Reese is I can't recall one of the champion Giant players ever coming out to defend him or at least show how valuable his contributions were. None of the coaches. None of the old timers. Really little backlash in the media as with the fans.
Pretty amazing because when significant people leave a organization (whatever the terms) you always tend to see a lot of appreciation and respect.
That tells a story that seems to say a lot without any words imv.
I think there’s a good shot that Gettleman watched that 17 season home game vs. the Eagles & told John-who probably wanted to hear it-that Eli still had gas left in the tank.
I think there’s a good shot that Gettleman watched that 17 season home game vs. the Eagles & told John-who probably wanted to hear it-that Eli still had gas left in the tank.
I think he actually said that at a press conference.
The Giants have had a lot of people in recent years who, for whatever reason, haven't worked out. And while it's disappointing it's very rare to actually detest anyone.
I detest Gettleman. Besides being incompetent he came across like an arrogant jerk and a misogynistic scumbag. A bad person. If one can be judged by their friends it's troubling that he was highly thought of enough by ownership to get the treatment he did. He was an embarrassment.
Pat Hanlon, if you're out there (for some reason I hear his voice when I read Mbavaro's posts), this planted attempt to humanize Gettleman before you announced he was keeping his job was fucking pathetic... Gettleman was a driver's ed teacher... - ( New Window )
one of the amazing things with Reese is I can't recall one of the champion Giant players ever coming out to defend him or at least show how valuable his contributions were. None of the coaches. None of the old timers. Really little backlash in the media as with the fans.
Pretty amazing because when significant people leave a organization (whatever the terms) you always tend to see a lot of appreciation and respect.
That tells a story that seems to say a lot without any words imv.
A lot of those Giant champion players celebrated the Gettleman hire. How did that work out?
I will agree with you about Marc Ross, he should have been let go way sooner. But, then what does it tell you that Marc Ross was one of four interviews for GM in 2017? Ross was interviewed for GM after Reese was fired. Not good.
As for a GM, I don't want them being buddies with the players. I want them making non emotional decisions.
I think there’s a good shot that Gettleman watched that 17 season home game vs. the Eagles & told John-who probably wanted to hear it-that Eli still had gas left in the tank.
I think he actually said that at a press conference.
The Giants have had a lot of people in recent years who, for whatever reason, haven't worked out. And while it's disappointing it's very rare to actually detest anyone.
I detest Gettleman. Besides being incompetent he came across like an arrogant jerk and a misogynistic scumbag. A bad person. If one can be judged by their friends it's troubling that he was highly thought of enough by ownership to get the treatment he did. He was an embarrassment.
Pat Hanlon, if you're out there (for some reason I hear his voice when I read Mbavaro's posts), this planted attempt to humanize Gettleman before you announced he was keeping his job was fucking pathetic... Gettleman was a driver's ed teacher... - ( New Window )
The original sin-if you will-was not letting both TC & Reese go after the '15 season. Instead John-in a classic half measure-lets Reese act like a sailor on shore leave that offseason heading into the '16 season in an attempt to save for Jerry to save his job. Then we have the sugar high of the '16 season before it all came crashing down in '17, followed promptly by EA doing a buddy a solid & us hiring Gettleman after an 'extensive' hiring process. The whole thing sucked.
The original sin-if you will-was not letting both TC & Reese go after the '15 season. Instead John-in a classic half measure-lets Reese act like a sailor on shore leave that offseason heading into the '16 season in an attempt to save for Jerry to save his job. Then we have the sugar high of the '16 season before it all came crashing down in '17, followed promptly by EA doing a buddy a solid & us hiring Gettleman after an 'extensive' hiring process. The whole thing sucked.
Oh no doubt. The era was over by the end of 2015. The Giants needed new blood and new eyes on the situation.
A GM and coach from the outside would have been more objective about Manning and the state of the team.
The original sin-if you will-was not letting both TC & Reese go after the '15 season. Instead John-in a classic half measure-lets Reese act like a sailor on shore leave that offseason heading into the '16 season in an attempt to save for Jerry to save his job. Then we have the sugar high of the '16 season before it all came crashing down in '17, followed promptly by EA doing a buddy a solid & us hiring Gettleman after an 'extensive' hiring process. The whole thing sucked.
Oh no doubt. The era was over by the end of 2015. The Giants needed new blood and new eyes on the situation.
A GM and coach from the outside would have been more objective about Manning and the state of the team.
The original sin-if you will-was not letting both TC & Reese go after the '15 season. Instead John-in a classic half measure-lets Reese act like a sailor on shore leave that offseason heading into the '16 season in an attempt to save for Jerry to save his job. Then we have the sugar high of the '16 season before it all came crashing down in '17, followed promptly by EA doing a buddy a solid & us hiring Gettleman after an 'extensive' hiring process. The whole thing sucked.
You win the contest for the most metaphors in one paragraph. But I will cut you some slack, you covered all of the bases.
John Mara mentioned all the letters he received telling him he needed to move on from Coughlin and/or Manning. He would reference this during the trophy ceremonies. I'm sure he felt he was right while everyone else was wrong, and he absolutely gets credit for that.
I like Terps, but if Wellington sold as he referenced above, you could say goodbye to those 07 & 11 Super Bowl titles. A new owner would have almost certainly cleaned house after 2006 in that hypothetical scenario.
But, I think Mara is very guided by history. He got two titles as an owner where patience paid off in the case of Coughlin and Manning. Now, the patience is not consistent. McAdoo, Shurmur and Judge were all NOT given patience. But, I do think he believes if he can just get the pieces right around Jones, he can have a run like the prior two Super Bowl teams. You just can't operate that way.
I think the injuries will help push Mara to signing off on a lottery pick QB, but it will be hard to win in this league now if you wait that long to see your ideal vision coming through. It most likely won't. It's also disrespectful to Manning to assume that a QB such as Jones can accomplish what he did.
John Mara mentioned all the letters he received telling him he needed to move on from Coughlin and/or Manning. He would reference this during the trophy ceremonies. I'm sure he felt he was right while everyone else was wrong, and he absolutely gets credit for that.
I like Terps, but if Wellington sold as he referenced above, you could say goodbye to those 07 & 11 Super Bowl titles. A new owner would have almost certainly cleaned house after 2006 in that hypothetical scenario.
But, I think Mara is very guided by history. He got two titles as an owner where patience paid off in the case of Coughlin and Manning. Now, the patience is not consistent. McAdoo, Shurmur and Judge were all NOT given patience. But, I do think he believes if he can just get the pieces right around Jones, he can have a run like the prior two Super Bowl teams. You just can't operate that way.
I think the injuries will help push Mara to signing off on a lottery pick QB, but it will be hard to win in this league now if you wait that long to see your ideal vision coming through. It most likely won't. It's also disrespectful to Manning to assume that a QB such as Jones can accomplish what he did.
Mara must remember that he was part of the group convincing his old man to move off Collins.
It’s a bit of a role reversal now but he should be able to see it.
I see this comment come up a lot on BBI and assuming it's all factually correct it's still seeing the world through revisionist anti-blue glasses. We all assume that the
Let's make the leap and assume Macadoo really did want him and was blocked by the Giants. Do we really think the Mahones in KC we see now is the version we'd get. Put Mahones on the team we had, with the talent we had and our coaches and is he the same player? People always forget he landed in the perfect spot to blossom. He landed on a team that was winning consistently with Alex Smith as the QB. He got the chance to come in, learn and take off the reigns of a really good team, which is not the mess he would have come to in the Giants. Who knows what he would of turned into on the Giants.
Too often we evaluate players like they can be rated and evaluated like some Madden NFL PlayStation player. His speed is 98, passing 78, etc... In reality, it's a lot of factors that need to play out on both sides for a player to be great, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
Lastly, I think we should probably stop bringing this up until/if we find out what really happened in that draft room. Was he really overruled? Did they try to trade, and KC outbid them? What was asked in the trade? Did it ever get that far? Why was he overruled?
I think the pieces to the rumor I had heard was that McAdoo
was not overruled per say. There was a good amount of interest growing on Mahomes within the NYG front office prior to the draft, and not just with McAdoo.
Reese never gave public details when asked subsequently, but they either just didn't pull the trigger in the end, or weren't willing to offer enough to move up and get it done. But it wasn't as if they just blocked McAdoo's interest imv.
I see this comment come up a lot on BBI and assuming it's all factually correct it's still seeing the world through revisionist anti-blue glasses. We all assume that the
Let's make the leap and assume Macadoo really did want him and was blocked by the Giants. Do we really think the Mahones in KC we see now is the version we'd get. Put Mahones on the team we had, with the talent we had and our coaches and is he the same player? People always forget he landed in the perfect spot to blossom. He landed on a team that was winning consistently with Alex Smith as the QB. He got the chance to come in, learn and take off the reigns of a really good team, which is not the mess he would have come to in the Giants. Who knows what he would of turned into on the Giants.
Too often we evaluate players like they can be rated and evaluated like some Madden NFL PlayStation player. His speed is 98, passing 78, etc... In reality, it's a lot of factors that need to play out on both sides for a player to be great, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
Lastly, I think we should probably stop bringing this up until/if we find out what really happened in that draft room. Was he really overruled? Did they try to trade, and KC outbid them? What was asked in the trade? Did it ever get that far? Why was he overruled?
Agreed. Mahomes took a very good team to the next level. This team has had more issues than just QB over the last 12 years. He would make the team better obviously, but how much? Would he have stayed healthy behind this OL? Would he have fit in McAdoo's scheme? Interesting questions to think about.... but he clearly found a great landing spot. Reid is a great coach, and that organization has been very stable since he was hired.
I don't think anyone is under the illusion Mahomes would be the same guy as a Giant as he is a Chief.
It's that if he accomplished half as much, it'd be exponentially more than the hit parade the Giants have put out there.
Maybe he gets in a game and tears his Achilles in this alternate universe. Maybe the scheme he plays under doesn't allow him to thrive or gets him killed. At the end of the day, we have no idea what would have happened or exactly we we'll never know who was at fault.
I don't think anyone is under the illusion Mahomes would be the same guy as a Giant as he is a Chief.
It's that if he accomplished half as much, it'd be exponentially more than the hit parade the Giants have put out there.
Maybe he gets in a game and tears his Achilles in this alternate universe. Maybe the scheme he plays under doesn't allow him to thrive or gets him killed. At the end of the day, we have no idea what would have happened or exactly we we'll never know who was at fault.
Just so I'm getting this straight -- you're jumping into a thread where fans are discussing the past and what ifs -- and your contribution is "we have no idea what would have happened."
I mean yeah, the surly bonds of physics do in fact keep us from rewinding time, but that's why it's called what if.
I don't think anyone is under the illusion Mahomes would be the same guy as a Giant as he is a Chief.
It's that if he accomplished half as much, it'd be exponentially more than the hit parade the Giants have put out there.
Maybe he gets in a game and tears his Achilles in this alternate universe. Maybe the scheme he plays under doesn't allow him to thrive or gets him killed. At the end of the day, we have no idea what would have happened or exactly we we'll never know who was at fault.
Just so I'm getting this straight -- you're jumping into a thread where fans are discussing the past and what ifs -- and your contribution is "we have no idea what would have happened."
I mean yeah, the surly bonds of physics do in fact keep us from rewinding time, but that's why it's called what if.
I'm fine with "What ifs" on a sport site like BBI. The problem is we don't acknowledge our lack of knowledge in those "What ifs." We take half a story, a nugget of unverified truth and hold that up as fact in those "what if'." We then recommend decisions and give our opinion on those unverified stories to change our what ifs to facts. We make conclusions on the overall state of the franchise based on that information. In this thread alone I've read three or four versions of a story in which several posters have made up their mind on.
I think there's a pretty big difference between challenging whether someone has the facts straight, and effectively dismissing a discussion because we can't know for sure what would have happened.
I think we know Mahomes is an exquisitely talented player, extremely tough, cool under pressure, and comes up big in the biggest spots.
Does that translate to multiple Super Bowls and MVP caliber seasons without a great coach like Reid? Probably not. But are the fortunes of the Giants better with him over Manning Corpse and Daniel Jones? I'd bet a tall boy that's a yes.
It is just amazing to me the stubborn nature of people.
THe Giants should have moved on from Eli Manning x years ago even though he put up top 10 passing numbers. huh?
Given how reality unfolded, stubborn might not mean exactly what you think it does.
Right stubborn doesn't mean stubborn. Like 5 years later of hearing from my neighbor how Eli doesn't have "it" to reading about the same thing here 5 years later on a 5 win team ....
Just like finding equivalency between Lamar Jackson's playoff game yesterday and post season record, and Dan Marino never winning a SB, and Peyton Manning having a few bad games early in his career in the playoffs isn't really a comparing them.
I think there’s a good shot that Gettleman watched that 17 season home game vs. the Eagles & told John-who probably wanted to hear it-that Eli still had gas left in the tank.
I think he actually said that at a press conference.
The Giants have had a lot of people in recent years who, for whatever reason, haven't worked out. And while it's disappointing it's very rare to actually detest anyone.
I detest Gettleman. Besides being incompetent he came across like an arrogant jerk and a misogynistic scumbag. A bad person. If one can be judged by their friends it's troubling that he was highly thought of enough by ownership to get the treatment he did. He was an embarrassment.
Pat Hanlon, if you're out there (for some reason I hear his voice when I read Mbavaro's posts), this planted attempt to humanize Gettleman before you announced he was keeping his job was fucking pathetic... Gettleman was a driver's ed teacher... - ( New Window )
The way Gettleman was allowed to exit this franchise was a slap in the face to the entire fanbase, for all of the reasons you state.
The Giants will have walked away from their highest pick in the draft in decades not with a cornerstone 10-15 year franchise changing player. Not the accrual of more picks in trade down to build a better roster. But a quickly aging running back who has a better than even chance of not being on the roster next year. All of this while Gettleman openly mocked everyone citing analytics as a reason not to invest so highly in the position. Lest we forget the trade up to select Deandre Baker or the trade down to select the immortal Yung Joka.
It is just amazing to me the stubborn nature of people.
THe Giants should have moved on from Eli Manning x years ago even though he put up top 10 passing numbers. huh?
Eli racked up most of his passing yards during a 1-7 start to the season in which most people who watched the games thought that he did not look very good.
I see this comment come up a lot on BBI and assuming it's all factually correct it's still seeing the world through revisionist anti-blue glasses. We all assume that the
Let's make the leap and assume Macadoo really did want him and was blocked by the Giants. Do we really think the Mahones in KC we see now is the version we'd get. Put Mahones on the team we had, with the talent we had and our coaches and is he the same player? People always forget he landed in the perfect spot to blossom. He landed on a team that was winning consistently with Alex Smith as the QB. He got the chance to come in, learn and take off the reigns of a really good team, which is not the mess he would have come to in the Giants. Who knows what he would of turned into on the Giants.
Too often we evaluate players like they can be rated and evaluated like some Madden NFL PlayStation player. His speed is 98, passing 78, etc... In reality, it's a lot of factors that need to play out on both sides for a player to be great, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
Lastly, I think we should probably stop bringing this up until/if we find out what really happened in that draft room. Was he really overruled? Did they try to trade, and KC outbid them? What was asked in the trade? Did it ever get that far? Why was he overruled?
We all assume that the what?
WE ALL ASSUME THAT THE WHAT???
Also, it's would have, not would of. And Mahomes, not Mahones. And McAdoo, not Macadoo. And reins, not reigns.
I've mentioned this before - Jerry Reese and his two rings were fired while Dave Gettleman got a little ceremony and was allowed to retired. That doesn't sit well with me.
In comment 16383791 lax counsel said:
I've mentioned this before - Jerry Reese and his two rings were fired while Dave Gettleman got a little ceremony and was allowed to retired. That doesn't sit well with me.
Well the bold move was to fire Reese in 2012, so ya know
I've mentioned this before - Jerry Reese and his two rings were fired while Dave Gettleman got a little ceremony and was allowed to retired. That doesn't sit well with me.
And he was fired for proceeding with the QB plan which Mara had approved.
I've mentioned this before - Jerry Reese and his two rings were fired while Dave Gettleman got a little ceremony and was allowed to retired. That doesn't sit well with me.
And he was fired for proceeding with the QB plan which Mara had approved.
It's hard for me to then place sole blame on Schoen for how he handled Jones. Schoen needs to manage up and should have used the tag, but just look at recent history with this owner and Manning. Look at the comments the owner made after the Vikings win.
I'm not usually one to trip out about Mara, but the last guy who messed with Mara's boy at QB got taken out back and shot. And that guy had 2 rings.
And people who leave the Giants don't typically get equivalent second chances elsewhere. Fassel, Reese, McAdoo, Shurmur & Judge all have never got another role equal to what they had at NYG. We all thought Fassel was a lock to get another HC job.
It's hard for me to then place sole blame on Schoen for how he handled Jones. Schoen needs to manage up and should have used the tag, but just look at recent history with this owner and Manning. Look at the comments the owner made after the Vikings win.
Can we not mix things please? It is one thing to bench a 2x SB MVP for pre-Cinderella story Geno Smith (who barely completed 50% of his passes and lost to a shitty Raiders team) only to watch his peers in his draft class play for years after his retirement. It is quite another to have loyalty to Daniel Jones.
2019 for sure, but Jones 2020 looks pretty similar to Eli’s 2019.
I think one of the major stains on this organization was feeling that they owed Manning something.
Looking back now - shoulda just torn the bandaid off
Reese first, let the GM pick a coach, let the coach/GM pick a QB
Instead we have (up until Schoen was hired), a series of half measures
2019 for sure, but Jones 2020 looks pretty similar to Eli’s 2019.
I wonder what Manning would have wanted dollars wise to play after 2019?
Its all water under the bridge but 4 coaches later...are we any better today?
Looking back now - shoulda just torn the bandaid off
Yup, one of the big misses was conflating the impact of Beckham and McAdoo.
The thread is basically fat man calling people names, time really is a flat circle.
Ned In Atlanta : 3/19/2019 10:23 am : link
And like last year, Eli�s apologists will point to his good games and say he�s still got it, and point the finger anywhere else but at Eli when he sucks (my guess is this year they blame the loss of OBJ)
Sounds awfully familiar, and it’s not surprising it’s the same people making the same takes.
Looking back now - shoulda just torn the bandaid off
Reese first, let the GM pick a coach, let the coach/GM pick a QB
Instead we have (up until Schoen was hired), a series of half measures
“Half measures and platitudes.”
The Giants way!
Its all water under the bridge but 4 coaches later...are we any better today?
Yup. For me its not, what went wrong 5 years ago. Its, what went wrong 10 years ago and its still a major issue. If scouting/drafting to replace aging/under performing o-line was better, then there would not have been an issue with moving on from Manning. 2013-18 there was a lack of importance in improving the o-line and it continues to haunt the team.
I might be the only one in the boat but the Giants should have traded Jones after his rookie season for a 2nd or 3rd round pick and drafted Herbert.
Quote:
Was the single biggest failure of this organization. Unfortunately, the Giants brass thought much of the same way a lot of the former regulars on this site did.
I think one of the major stains on this organization was feeling that they owed Manning something.
Yup. That plus his teary eyed press conference plus the backlash to the benching set the Giants on the course they are now. Love Eli and it’s not his fault, it’s managements for operating that way but the last couple of years of Eli were brutal for the franchise.
They had a way out of it too. They had an elite #1 WR. Some pieces on defense (Collins, Harrison, Tomlinson, Kennard) that just needed an infusion of youth in the secondary. They just pivoted the wrong direction.
Even then, the Giants had plenty of chances to course correct, so I'm not necessarily going to say that 2018 alone ruined the course of this franchise. However, the team has certainly let the thinking that guided 2018 offseason mess up the team into present day: specifically, the Giants haved acted more like a reputation management firm for late-career Eli and then Jones than committing to building a successful team.
You can at least understand why Eli earned this privilege, but I don't get it for Jones. When he loses, we constantly hear about the supporting cast. Well, guess what; he is part of the cast, and outside of 2022, he has led a bottom tier passing attack every season.
We can also see how this thinking already wrecked Gettleman/Judge. Despite Jones having missed multiple games in 2019 and 2020, the Giants did not make a serious effort to bring in a quality backup in 2021, leading to Mike Glennon being the option instead of someone like Gardner Minshew.
Bottom line: the Giants need to return to looking at their QB as one of 53 players. Yes, the QB gets an elevated status in this league, but unless you are Mahomes-tier, you should be evaluated on your successes and failures at the same level of everyone else on the roster.
I think that problem is solved. Schoen seems much more competent. But it takes a while to get the talent in the door.
I am hoping that we see progress with the talent, rather than regression in 2024. Really true at every position, but especially OL. I have no problem moving on from DJ (regression in 2023 + injury), but I do think that with a competent OL he can do what Brock Purdy does, as an example. Bellinger got worse. SB was worse. Only Slayton was consistent. Yes read that sentence twice. Slayton was our most consistent offensive player.
2023 was the most disappointing season I can remember. If we don't see player progress then we probably need to move on again. Which sucks, because consistent good management and coaching are the most important things for franchise success.
But surely the answer is to draft a new QB because he'll be able to figure out how to complete throws with a defender in his face within 2 seconds of the snap!
Looking back now - shoulda just torn the bandaid off
Reese first, let the GM pick a coach, let the coach/GM pick a QB
Instead we have (up until Schoen was hired), a series of half measures
Believe it or not, there were serious threads in 2013 about replacing Eli there were rational and did not invite vitriol (outside of Dep). Unfortunately, Bridgewater was the guy people were interested in.
I was in favor of the full house-cleaning after 2013. Reese, Coughlin, Eli all gone or for sale. The whole project was clearly stagnant and they been playing basically .500 ball in the regular season since 2009.
You can absolutely criticize how the Giants handled the end of the Eli Manning era, but he wasn't just another player either.
The fault is spread out, Eli shares some of it just as the front office does just as the coaching does. The issue became so many people (still do) place all the blame on one area while excusing the others as victims in the incompetence. Everyone contributed to the shitty back half of Eli's career.
The time to move on from Eli was either 2018 or 2020. Once they decided to keep Eli in 2018, they should have committed two years to that plan and had a full clean break in 2020. They took an awful, half measured course of action. 2020 was a much better year to draft a QB.
Like Simms, Eli could have played another 2-3 years on another team with players. But good for them wanting to retire as a NYG.
This team has been disappointing since 2012 in my opinion. A couple good years scattered in the time period.
But as others said, once Eli was gone, the team should have just done a total rebuild not half measures. They should have brought in good scouts and good coaches, whatever it took.
Today, we're at a tipping point again. Can this staff and management turn this around? I would say if 2024 doesnt look vastly better then blow it up for 2025.
Ok Im done, back to work.
But surely the answer is to draft a new QB because he'll be able to figure out how to complete throws with a defender in his face within 2 seconds of the snap!
Eli declined at age 35 the same way that Matt Ryan and Russell Wilson did. Most QBs are finished by 38/39. Some are freaks like Brady and Brees and make it into their early 40s. Some like Eli and Ryan decline a little earlier than 38. It's ok; the only mistake is believing otherwise.
Jones was/is never that good.
That's always been a strange one for me. When Manning wasn't very good any more, did the Giants fail Bennie Fowler?
How do we really know that? He's basically had a different offensive every year of his career. I horrible o-line, and substandard receivers.
Was he supposed to succeed under those conditions? And more importantly would any QB the Giants draft succeed under those conditions?
Quote:
Jones was/is never that good.
How do we really know that? He's basically had a different offensive every year of his career. I horrible o-line, and substandard receivers.
Was he supposed to succeed under those conditions? And more importantly would any QB the Giants draft succeed under those conditions?
He had continuity at the offensive coordinator between 2020-2021 and 2022-2023. His coordinators just end up fired or on the hot seat because he's been a bottom-tier QB in every advanced stat save for 2022.
A career backup looked better than him in 2023 so I'm confident a top QB they draft will be better.
This is not complicated.
Obviously Reese was the big failure as GM and it seems the league agrees with this. He failed Eli. I think it is fair to expect your GM to be able to replace the good OL he inherited. He did not add one player who was as good or a better player than what he inherited on the OL. Tragic.
I also think Mara recognized this too late (after the benching) and then maybe got a little sentimental. I don't fault him as much as some for this decision. The Hail Mary attempt at putting a more competitive team around Eli to finish his contract was earned imv. I wanted Allen in 2018.
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Jones was/is never that good.
How do we really know that? He's basically had a different offensive every year of his career. I horrible o-line, and substandard receivers.
Was he supposed to succeed under those conditions? And more importantly would any QB the Giants draft succeed under those conditions?
For three years in a row the WRs have shown advanced metrics that would argue that they aren’t substandard. They also looked better with other QBs this year.
How do we know the receivers aren’t actually good and Jones is holding them back? Why is it that everyone is holding Jones back?
Was the 2018 team so good that a declining Manning could blow anything a prime Jones has accomplished out of the water?
I think this same thought experiment could have been applied to Manning in 2016-2017.
The Giants operated out of the assumption that Manning was good, so therefore the poor results were the product of everything else.
A cerebral ownership group would have been shaken to its intellectual core by the Geno Smith game. Instead they were shaken to their emotional worst places.
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How do we know the receivers aren’t actually good and Jones is holding them back? Why is it that everyone is holding Jones back?
I think this same thought experiment could have been applied to Manning in 2016-2017.
The Giants operated out of the assumption that Manning was good, so therefore the poor results were the product of everything else.
A cerebral ownership group would have been shaken to its intellectual core by the Geno Smith game. Instead they were shaken to their emotional worst places.
Even though Odell carried the 2016 offense.
I think this same thought experiment could have been applied to Manning in 2016-2017.
The Giants operated out of the assumption that Manning was good, so therefore the poor results were the product of everything else.
A cerebral ownership group would have been shaken to its intellectual core by the Geno Smith game. Instead they were shaken to their emotional worst places.
Even though Odell carried the 2016 offense.
OBJ's greatness 2014-2016 was such a curse disguised as a blessing. His singular ability to destroy defenses created the illusion Ben McAdoo and Eli Manning were a winning combination.
The head coach correctly identified two things:
1. The starter was in decline. Why wouldn't he be, he was about to turn 36.
2. There was a prospect in the draft worth moving up for.
The fucking head coach saw these things. But because the head coach doesn't really have a voice at the Olive Garden, he was paid no mind.
Looking back now - shoulda just torn the bandaid off
Reese first, let the GM pick a coach, let the coach/GM pick a QB
Instead we have (up until Schoen was hired), a series of half measures
The 2013 season should have been the end of Reese.
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Things were growing stale when Gilbride got the axe.
Looking back now - shoulda just torn the bandaid off
Reese first, let the GM pick a coach, let the coach/GM pick a QB
Instead we have (up until Schoen was hired), a series of half measures
The 2013 season should have been the end of Reese.
They hand out $40 million a year contracts after wild card wins. No chance this franchise would fire a GM two years removed from a Super Bowl.
Manning was an old 36. He had 199 caps. His ironman streak also meant he had a lot of miles on him.
Reese should have lost his job after the 2015 season.
This draft, we're going to have some major questions. Do we take a QB at any cost, do we prioritize building in the trenches (either side), do we move on from EN and take a stud OT or give him more time, is an impact WR the way to go at 6 or go elsewhere and look to take advantage of a deep WR class and look there in round 2?
There are all major questions and there are legit options in each of these paths, depending on how you feel about the second tier of QBs. So whatever we do --we cannot let 2022 fool us into making similar mistakes that DG made. At the same time, I'm of the rare opinion that this team is not in a disasterous state and we just have to be smart. We need a QB, but we cannot accept mediocrity just to appease the move on from Jones at all cost crowd.
We better have an option around who can move around and attack in the vertical game, that much I'll say, but the bottom line is this team needs to get better. If we can acquire major improvement in other areas and still get a QB in rounds 1-4 to compete with Jones, I'll take that. I feel like this team is capable of competing provided they're able to attack defenses downfield.
dep026 : 3/19/2019 9:38 am : link
the stock of Kleenex has soared recently.
I thank BBI for my profits. Poor Odell is gone..... boo freakity hoo.
Looking back now - shoulda just torn the bandaid off
Reese first, let the GM pick a coach, let the coach/GM pick a QB
Instead we have (up until Schoen was hired), a series of half measures
I think a case could be made that Schoen's continued the half measures approach. Until he shows me something different, extending Jones was a huge mistake BUT it was a continuation of a long line of mistakes the Giants have made over the last 10 years or more. I want to see Schoen actually rip that bandaid off, get rid of Barkley and Jones, and create a team in his image. Until I see that, it's just more of the same.
With the Giants is been the opposite philosophy. We had about the "human element" and the notion of moving on from a popular player being "a tough sell".
With the Giants is been the opposite philosophy. We had about the "human element" and the notion of moving on from a popular player being "a tough sell".
Yep, ideally 2016 was the time to do it. Eli could have signed a 3 year deal with Jacksonville and reunited with Coughlin. I admit that would be tough to stomach for me as a fan, but maybe he would have had a rejuvenation in a weak division.
The Giants do always react and operate too late. They're holding onto Jones too long as well.
Eli had lost his long ball accuracy, he started watching the rush more and more, and become less patient in pocket, often just throwing the ball into ground. But because Eli was the only guy who didn't come of out the lockerroom with their head up their ass in the wildcard game in GB, the front office and his blinded loyal fan base didn't think he was part of the problem. However, both were wrong because he was. You can read a ton of posts in that linked archived thread and just see it dripping in their disdain and condemnation for anyone questioning Eli's role in it all.
And then 2017 was a disaster. And that brought another disaster in Gettleman who delayed the QB decision in 2018, and then drafted Jones in desperation in a weak 2019 draft.
And 5 long years later, after that latest mistake was extended with an awful contract, the franchise continues to be lost.
Eric on Li : mute : 3/19/2019 12:46 pm : link
is the expectation really that half of the league is definitively getting "franchise QB" production for $20m?
Rodgers ($33m) and Ryan ($30m) make significantly more. Extremely mediocre recently available options like Cousins ($28m), Grappolo ($27m), Alex Smith ($23.5m), Flacco ($22m) and Foles ($22m) make more. Brady ($15m) should be in the top 3 but we all know NE games the system.
The lack of understanding of what even semi-competent (NON-franchise QB) costs regardless of how anyone rates Eli specifically is mind boggling. The only alternatives to Eli that save money lead to the tired Saquon vs. Darnold argument or the short sighted delusions of "fitzmagic". It's also why the way forward that makes the most sense is drafting someone in the first round and getting 5 years of relatively cheap control.
Eli was plenty capable through 2017 though he may have needed a bit of a different type of team or really a OL like he had early in his career and like Philly and Dallas both had in 2016/17.
The line wasn’t the only problem. Nobody would confuse the Giants line with the Cowboys, but it’s become a crutch of an excuse
With the Giants is been the opposite philosophy. We had about the "human element" and the notion of moving on from a popular player being "a tough sell".
Yep, ideally 2016 was the time to do it. Eli could have signed a 3 year deal with Jacksonville and reunited with Coughlin. I admit that would be tough to stomach for me as a fan, but maybe he would have had a rejuvenation in a weak division.
The Giants do always react and operate too late. They're holding onto Jones too long as well.
Terps, if you want to really torture yourself, the equivalent trade for Mahomes would have been Engram, Webb, and Barkley.
I do hope he's doing ok from a health standpoint.
But if you're concerned, you can just ask him - he's back on BBI and even with a new handle you can figure out who he is.
Eli was plenty capable through 2017 though he may have needed a bit of a different type of team or really a OL like he had early in his career and like Philly and Dallas both had in 2016/17.
nobody was getting fired within 2 years of that SB win.
their first round picks in 2010 and 2011 were JPP, Linval, and then Prince Amukamara - who all started in the SB and went on to quality careers (excellent in the case of JPP/Linval). So in 2012 nothing looked that bad, and even after the 2012 season there were at least a few flashes from wilson/randle (wilson actually made 2nd team all pro kick return as a rookie).
that 2012 draft was the one that ended up totally catastrophic, along with the fact that the OL was about to spontaneously combust, but that couldn't be fully appreciated until 2014 or 2015 - at whichever point that happened Coughlin and Reese should have been dealt with at the same time and mara should have started over from scratch. but instead everything dragged out with patchwork hires/fires.
Was the 2018 team so good that a declining Manning could blow anything a prime Jones has accomplished out of the water?
Eli's conventional stats looked good during that season but his advanced numbers and the eye test didn't. He racked up some of his biggest games on the backend against bad defenses once the season was basically over.
The line wasn’t the only problem. Nobody would confuse the Giants line with the Cowboys, but it’s become a crutch of an excuse
Ajr, it is certainly exaggerated by many but the OL issues were not some overeaching excuse. Sacks stats for Eli are also not a clear indicator of the porous OL because he would often throw the ball away or at a RB's feet when a play was blown up quickly by pressure. He had no patience to hang in there and risk being hit and sacked any longer. Except maybe in 2018 :-)
Eli was plenty capable through 2017 though he may have needed a bit of a different type of team or really a OL like he had early in his career and like Philly and Dallas both had in 2016/17.
Come on. This is ridiculous. I know you think Reese sucks and deserves zero credit for anything he did here (2x SB champion GM), but even this from you is surprising.
In the 58 years of the Super Bowl, 13 starting quarterbacks have won more than one. Eli also started 210 consecutive games, the third-longest consecutive starts streak by an NFL quarterback.
But the franchise should have just moved on because he was too old. People forget how great he was because he's humble in public
The "move on" BS is a lot og
Are you also disputing my claim about Eli still having plenty left through 2017?
The 2012 offensive line per PFF.
PB – 20th, RB – 4th, PEN – 12th
Stud: Though he gets next to no praise, Will Beatty (+22.4) had a year that warranted Pro Bowl consideration. The penalties aren’t ideal, but there are not many left tackles who can keep their quarterback upright and generate movement in the run game.
Dud: It was David Diehl (-6.2) again, but the truth is he actually performed a lot better in the second half of the season compared to the liability we’ve known him to be.
Summary: A big improvement from this line, which was terrible in 2011. They made a big contribution in the running game while ensuring Eli Manning faced significantly less pressure. Still, this line is in transition to a degree with a few of players getting to that age where the cliff is approaching.
I think it was just another failure in a long line of failures dating back to 2011. The roster had been hollowed out and a FA spending spree and prime OBJ made everyone think that this team was a contender again.
Jim in Tampa : 3/19/2019 9:47 am
And a little over the top.
However, I think the OP's take is a lot closer to the truth than that of many Eli enthusiasts who think Eli is just a solid OL away from playing like an above average QB.
The Giants should have moved on from Eli.
Why the co-owner is so in love with Jones makes no sense whatsoever.
Bill L...
bw in dc : 3/19/2019 3:35 pm : link
Here's my bigger fear - actually winning with Eli.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
In the 58 years of the Super Bowl, 13 starting quarterbacks have won more than one. Eli also started 210 consecutive games, the third-longest consecutive starts streak by an NFL quarterback.
But the franchise should have just moved on because he was too old. People forget how great he was because he's humble in public
The "move on" BS is a lot og
This is crazy. No player on an NFL team should get special privileges to play as long as they want regardless of production.
The 49ers in 1988 alternated between Montana and Young despite Montana having won 2 superbowls. The reasoning was that Montana wasn't getting it done in the playoffs anymore (he of course responded to that challenge).
Parcells and the local Giants beats were openly discussing replacing Simms during the 1989 season.
The Seahawks sent Russell Wilson packing the moment it was clear he was declining.
The concept of a generalissmo Eli who gets to occupy the QB position for life based on past accomplishments is not how a team should operate.
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And two of his top 4 lowest sack rate seasons were 2016 and 2019. 2018 was awful, and 2017 was above average.
The line wasn’t the only problem. Nobody would confuse the Giants line with the Cowboys, but it’s become a crutch of an excuse
Ajr, it is certainly exaggerated by many but the OL issues were not some overeaching excuse. Sacks stats for Eli are also not a clear indicator of the porous OL because he would often throw the ball away or at a RB's feet when a play was blown up quickly by pressure. He had no patience to hang in there and risk being hit and sacked any longer. Except maybe in 2018 :-)
It was bad not doubt, but blaming it all on the line is oversimplifying it.
Jeff Rutledge (with the Giant)
Dave Humm (backup to Kenny Stabler)
Zeke Bratkowski (backup to Bart Starr)
Les in TO : 3/19/2019 4:10 pm : link
You can churn through GMs coaches coordinators and surrounding linemen and talent but Eli has and is the issue. I�m sure the Eli Fanboynistas will blame a dearth of receiving talent on the offense�s poor performance this year. Eli Dilfered his two Super Bowls and the Giants held on to him and overpaid him five years too long.
In the 58 years of the Super Bowl, 13 starting quarterbacks have won more than one. Eli also started 210 consecutive games, the third-longest consecutive starts streak by an NFL quarterback.
But the franchise should have just moved on because he was too old. People forget how great he was because he's humble in public
The "move on" BS is a lot og
This is one way to run a franchise. In a competitive landscape like the NFL it is not the way to build a winning team. Better quarterback than Eli have been forced to move on late in their careers.
It's a question of priority. Is winning the top priority for the Giants? I don't see how anyone can make the argument that it is.
The 2012 draft to me signified a big changing of the Giants direction moving forward and TC was being phased out imv.
I did say it would have been a bold move but I would have at least started with Ross to go along with the very clear message from Mara to Reese I mentioned.
We will never get details but I have a feeling TC and Reese saw football and team building very differently over time.
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was rightfully given the opportunity to go out on his terms. I don't think this should be looked at as a problem with the franchise in general. He WAS the New York Giants.
In the 58 years of the Super Bowl, 13 starting quarterbacks have won more than one. Eli also started 210 consecutive games, the third-longest consecutive starts streak by an NFL quarterback.
But the franchise should have just moved on because he was too old. People forget how great he was because he's humble in public
The "move on" BS is a lot og
This is crazy. No player on an NFL team should get special privileges to play as long as they want regardless of production.
The 49ers in 1988 alternated between Montana and Young despite Montana having won 2 superbowls. The reasoning was that Montana wasn't getting it done in the playoffs anymore (he of course responded to that challenge).
Parcells and the local Giants beats were openly discussing replacing Simms during the 1989 season.
The Seahawks sent Russell Wilson packing the moment it was clear he was declining.
The concept of a generalissmo Eli who gets to occupy the QB position for life based on past accomplishments is not how a team should operate.
All revisionist history:
Young was failed QB who had to start for Montana due to injury, the team was surprised he did as well as he did.
Same for Simms, Hoss was nobody who shocked everyone when he was able to come in and win the SB, and they went back to Simms when he was healthy.
Russell Wilson didn't win two Super Bowls.
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was rightfully given the opportunity to go out on his terms. I don't think this should be looked at as a problem with the franchise in general. He WAS the New York Giants.
In the 58 years of the Super Bowl, 13 starting quarterbacks have won more than one. Eli also started 210 consecutive games, the third-longest consecutive starts streak by an NFL quarterback.
But the franchise should have just moved on because he was too old. People forget how great he was because he's humble in public
The "move on" BS is a lot og
This is one way to run a franchise. In a competitive landscape like the NFL it is not the way to build a winning team. Better quarterback than Eli have been forced to move on late in their careers.
It's a question of priority. Is winning the top priority for the Giants? I don't see how anyone can make the argument that it is.
You act like it's a problem with the franchise. Eli gets to be an exception IMO.
You act like it's a problem with the franchise. Eli gets to be an exception IMO.
Making Eli an exception was certainly an option. The problem is it came at a cost of building a better team.
If you enjoyed watching Eli from 2017-2019, then it worked out for you. Personally I think it was the worst thing that could have happened to his career (in terms of legacy, not money) and he would have been better off going elsewhere.
And for the Giants it certainly would have been better on the field to move on.
I was screaming about the shit OL from the rooftops back then as well.
Plz fix the OL finallyz Giantz Thx.
lol
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Great post by the OP
Les in TO : 3/19/2019 4:10 pm : link
You can churn through GMs coaches coordinators and surrounding linemen and talent but Eli has and is the issue. I�m sure the Eli Fanboynistas will blame a dearth of receiving talent on the offense�s poor performance this year. Eli Dilfered his two Super Bowls and the Giants held on to him and overpaid him five years too long.
I assume you are talking to me. The garbage posts go both ways as it usually does. Although, the post you highlighted would also qualify as a garbage post as well. Do you really agree that Eli 'dilfered' his way to two super bowls? Honest question.
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You act like it's a problem with the franchise. Eli gets to be an exception IMO.
Making Eli an exception was certainly an option. The problem is it came at a cost of building a better team.
If you enjoyed watching Eli from 2017-2019, then it worked out for you. Personally I think it was the worst thing that could have happened to his career (in terms of legacy, not money) and he would have been better off going elsewhere.
And for the Giants it certainly would have been better on the field to move on.
There's a human element you leave out. Sure, the stats say you're right, but that's in a bubble.
2011 89.2yards/3.5
2016 88.3yards/3.5
2011 Nicks (big game playoff performer)
Cruz (healthy)
Manningham experienced third option
Ballard
2016 OBJ (dropped passes in one playoff game)
Cruz greatly diminished player unless you think he was still 2011 version. Not me.
Sheppard Rookie
Tye
TC versus BM
2011 Big playoff performing D versus one that crumbled with a couple injuries.
Older and breaking down OL with a champion pedigree (who stepped up when WB got hurt) versus Flowers, Pugh, WR, Jerry, Hart.
Yet Eli looked like he was ready to go early in the 2016 playoff game.....
1. Better a year early than a year late.
2. There's a human element to consider, and some decisions could be a tough sell to ownership and the fans.
If your sole priority is winning football games, the first approach is what you do. If sentimentality and nostalgia are important to you, the second approach is what you do.
There is no question the Maras believe in the second approach. That is their right; they own the team.
Lamar is expensive and just seems like he can't get it done in the playoffs with a really good team around him. SB winning HC and the number one D who pitched a shutout in the 2nd half.
Time to get a replacement?
1. Better a year early than a year late.
2. There's a human element to consider, and some decisions could be a tough sell to ownership and the fans.
If your sole priority is winning football games, the first approach is what you do. If sentimentality and nostalgia are important to you, the second approach is what you do.
There is no question the Maras believe in the second approach. That is their right; they own the team.
They did do it. The fans reaction was unhinged. Billboards and everything. All because Geno Smith was getting a chance to play on a 2-9 team. Even beyond that, the rest of the NFL reacted. I think I recall Roethlisberger saying he's thankful to play for the Steelers because that would never have happened there.
The reaction was beyond what anyone could have expected.
I linked the thread once Geno Smith was named the starter. A lot of us thought that was the end, but they reversed course. Ghosts of Simms.
Link - ( New Window )
Lamar is expensive and just seems like he can't get it done in the playoffs with a really good team around him. SB winning HC and the number one D who pitched a shutout in the 2nd half.
Time to get a replacement?
If Lamar were 36 years old and 5 years removed from the last time he was on a team that did something that mattered, yes I'd say it was past time. I'm sure this was a genuine question.
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do with Lamar GoTerps? You have a lot of opinions on two time SB MVP Eli who got it done in the playoffs but curious what your thoughts are with that question.
Lamar is expensive and just seems like he can't get it done in the playoffs with a really good team around him. SB winning HC and the number one D who pitched a shutout in the 2nd half.
Time to get a replacement?
If Lamar were 36 years old and 5 years removed from the last time he was on a team that did something that mattered, yes I'd say it was past time. I'm sure this was a genuine question.
You have repeatedly said SB's are the only thing that matters abd the question is legit- how much more talent, advantage and set up do you need before you are willing to criticize Ljax? You won't because you are disingenuous at best and extremely biased at worst..
1. Better a year early than a year late.
2. There's a human element to consider, and some decisions could be a tough sell to ownership and the fans.
If your sole priority is winning football games, the first approach is what you do. If sentimentality and nostalgia are important to you, the second approach is what you do.
There is no question the Maras believe in the second approach. That is their right; they own the team.
There is a human element to consider when you are working with humans. I can't imagine any team ignores this element when dealing with a situation where it may be time to replace an iconic player or coach. I think teams care (even the successful ones) how players and coaches perceive their treatment of employees.
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was rightfully given the opportunity to go out on his terms. I don't think this should be looked at as a problem with the franchise in general. He WAS the New York Giants.
In the 58 years of the Super Bowl, 13 starting quarterbacks have won more than one. Eli also started 210 consecutive games, the third-longest consecutive starts streak by an NFL quarterback.
But the franchise should have just moved on because he was too old. People forget how great he was because he's humble in public
The "move on" BS is a lot og
This is one way to run a franchise. In a competitive landscape like the NFL it is not the way to build a winning team. Better quarterback than Eli have been forced to move on late in their careers.
It's a question of priority. Is winning the top priority for the Giants? I don't see how anyone can make the argument that it is.
I'll admit it, I was a huge fan of Joe Montana and was majorly pissed that he, of all people, wasn't allowed to go out on his own terms. But Walsh and the 49ers were right. They focused on what was best for winning and not sentimentality. The Giants don't do that and as much as the front office and owners might deny it, they aren't in it to win at all costs.
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Wasn't it Bill Walsh that said, "Better a year early than a year late?"
With the Giants is been the opposite philosophy. We had about the "human element" and the notion of moving on from a popular player being "a tough sell".
Yep, ideally 2016 was the time to do it. Eli could have signed a 3 year deal with Jacksonville and reunited with Coughlin. I admit that would be tough to stomach for me as a fan, but maybe he would have had a rejuvenation in a weak division.
The Giants do always react and operate too late. They're holding onto Jones too long as well.
If Jones is a Giant beyond next season, I don't know what to say other than the Mara's have full control and the "Giant look" is the only thing that matters. There should be exactly 0 sentimentality with Jones.
Probably get back to work next week and dissect how he can be a better quarterback, coach him up, and be prepared for MVP level play next season and another shot in the playoffs.
Just like the Bills will do with Allen, just like the Bengals will do with Burrow, just like the Lions will do with Goff, just like the Dolphins will do with Tua, just like the Cowboys will do with Dak, just like the Eagles will do with Hurts.
1. Better a year early than a year late.
2. There's a human element to consider, and some decisions could be a tough sell to ownership and the fans.
If your sole priority is winning football games, the first approach is what you do. If sentimentality and nostalgia are important to you, the second approach is what you do.
There is no question the Maras believe in the second approach. That is their right; they own the team.
There is a human element to consider when you are working with humans. I can't imagine any team ignores this element when dealing with a situation where it may be time to replace an iconic player or coach. I think teams care (even the successful ones) how players and coaches perceive their treatment of employees.
What's your opinion on how the Packers treat their players?
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It's like I said above - there are a couple different approaches:
1. Better a year early than a year late.
2. There's a human element to consider, and some decisions could be a tough sell to ownership and the fans.
If your sole priority is winning football games, the first approach is what you do. If sentimentality and nostalgia are important to you, the second approach is what you do.
There is no question the Maras believe in the second approach. That is their right; they own the team.
There is a human element to consider when you are working with humans. I can't imagine any team ignores this element when dealing with a situation where it may be time to replace an iconic player or coach. I think teams care (even the successful ones) how players and coaches perceive their treatment of employees.
What about the human element for the other 52 players? Do you think they're working and dealing with injuries so they can be part of the Eli Manning farewell tour? Do their careers and feelings count?
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In comment 16382615 Go Terps said:
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It's like I said above - there are a couple different approaches:
1. Better a year early than a year late.
2. There's a human element to consider, and some decisions could be a tough sell to ownership and the fans.
If your sole priority is winning football games, the first approach is what you do. If sentimentality and nostalgia are important to you, the second approach is what you do.
There is no question the Maras believe in the second approach. That is their right; they own the team.
There is a human element to consider when you are working with humans. I can't imagine any team ignores this element when dealing with a situation where it may be time to replace an iconic player or coach. I think teams care (even the successful ones) how players and coaches perceive their treatment of employees.
What about the human element for the other 52 players? Do you think they're working and dealing with injuries so they can be part of the Eli Manning farewell tour? Do their careers and feelings count?
Certianly other players matter of course. I don't think the Giants planned an Eli Manning farewell tour. I think the Giants thought Eli was still a viable option (right or wrong). If a team deliberately orchestrates some sort of a 'farewell tour' for a player they know or strongly feel is not a viable option then I would agree with you. It seems to me you believe the Giants did orchestrate this farewell tour at the expense of fans and other players while I do not. That is a big difference.
Funny about the Kleenex connection. Pretty obvious.
This a bit tricky because of hindsight, no? To answer you question with the benefit of hindsight, absolutely the Giants should have made every effort to trade up for Mahomes and dealt with Eli then. A team can deal with the human element while also making the correct decision. The Giants did it with Armstead, Osi, Tuck etc. Treating your players well does not mean you aren't making the correct business decisions.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
I don't think their decisions were about trying to build the best football team they could.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
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If your answer is yes, then how do you account for the human element in kicking Eli to the curb?
This a bit tricky because of hindsight, no? To answer you question with the benefit of hindsight, absolutely the Giants should have made every effort to trade up for Mahomes and dealt with Eli then. A team can deal with the human element while also making the correct decision. The Giants did it with Armstead, Osi, Tuck etc. Treating your players well does not mean you aren't making the correct business decisions.
But it's not hindsight; the Giants' has coach at the time saw it and lobbied to trade up for Mahomes. McAdoo had the double benefit of being in the building but not having the sentimental tie to the Super Bowls. He knew Eli was in decline and he wanted to do something about it.
I don't think their decisions were about trying to build the best football team they could.
It's certainly possible, and if so, that was the wrong way to go about it. You and I see it differently though.
In real terms, the 2019 Eli Manning Goodbye Yellow Brick Road tour kept 17M in his pocket, and out of the pockets of other football players. And none of those other players made anywhere near the ~quarter of a billion Manning made.
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In comment 16382688 Go Terps said:
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If your answer is yes, then how do you account for the human element in kicking Eli to the curb?
This a bit tricky because of hindsight, no? To answer you question with the benefit of hindsight, absolutely the Giants should have made every effort to trade up for Mahomes and dealt with Eli then. A team can deal with the human element while also making the correct decision. The Giants did it with Armstead, Osi, Tuck etc. Treating your players well does not mean you aren't making the correct business decisions.
But it's not hindsight; the Giants' has coach at the time saw it and lobbied to trade up for Mahomes. McAdoo had the double benefit of being in the building but not having the sentimental tie to the Super Bowls. He knew Eli was in decline and he wanted to do something about it.
Mac liked him, who else in the organization liked him? The Giants have said that their process is collaborative. If Mac liked Mahomes, but others weren't so sure, especially with the price it would have taken to move up, I can see why he was overruled. It is hindsight because had the Giants front office known the player they would be getting in Mahomes there really would be no reason to not trade up no matter the cost. At the time, Mahomes was not one of the 'sure things'.
In real terms, the 2019 Eli Manning Goodbye Yellow Brick Road tour kept 17M in his pocket, and out of the pockets of other football players. And none of those other players made anywhere near the ~quarter of a billion Manning made.
I am not telling fans who to feel for. I am saying that teams typically deal with iconic players a bit differently than your typical player. Now that does not mean they should give them a farewell tour, but they may take a bit more time laying the ground-work for that player's release or trade.
Who in the org chart is qualified to counter both the head coach and GM on a QB decision?
Maybe he did, but unless I missed it, Reese never said publicly what he preferred.
Who in the org chart is qualified to counter both the head coach and GM on a QB decision?
I don't know.
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Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
I think, if you're willing to contort your argument to fit your belief (rather than the other way around), then you're right that we aren't likely to agree.
If Daboll was such a big Shepard fan, he sure had a weird way of showing it, considering Shepard's snap count reflects that he was the least involved WR on the roster, and it was a pretty stark indication. Here are the WR snap counts (on offense only) for the year:
Darius Slayton, 896 snaps (81.2%)
Wan'Dale Robinson, 641 snaps (58.1%)
Jalin Hyatt, 557 snaps (50.5%)
Isaiah Hodgins, 511 snaps (46.3%)
Parris Campbell, 207 snaps (18.8%)
Sterling Shepard, 142 snaps (12.9%)
Parris Campbell wound up basically a forgotten man by the halfway point, and even he had 46% more snaps than Shepard this past season. If you're unwilling to take that as evidence that there was a courtesy passenger on the 2023 Giants roster, I don't have any other way to convince you.
In real terms, the 2019 Eli Manning Goodbye Yellow Brick Road tour kept 17M in his pocket, and out of the pockets of other football players. And none of those other players made anywhere near the ~quarter of a billion Manning made.
I am not telling fans who to feel for. I am saying that teams typically deal with iconic players a bit differently than your typical player. Now that does not mean they should give them a farewell tour, but they may take a bit more time laying the ground-work for that player's release or trade.
That's why I pointed to the Packers, who are the gold standard in the NFL as an organization.
They also had no problem drafting quarterbacks in round one, while they had iconic quarterbacks on the roster. It even pissed the icons off. Those icons even went and played for the Jets!
The Packers have had 5 losing seasons since Favre became the starter in 1992. The Giants have 5 in the last 6.
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In comment 16382697 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
I think, if you're willing to contort your argument to fit your belief (rather than the other way around), then you're right that we aren't likely to agree.
If Daboll was such a big Shepard fan, he sure had a weird way of showing it, considering Shepard's snap count reflects that he was the least involved WR on the roster, and it was a pretty stark indication. Here are the WR snap counts (on offense only) for the year:
Darius Slayton, 896 snaps (81.2%)
Wan'Dale Robinson, 641 snaps (58.1%)
Jalin Hyatt, 557 snaps (50.5%)
Isaiah Hodgins, 511 snaps (46.3%)
Parris Campbell, 207 snaps (18.8%)
Sterling Shepard, 142 snaps (12.9%)
Parris Campbell wound up basically a forgotten man by the halfway point, and even he had 46% more snaps than Shepard this past season. If you're unwilling to take that as evidence that there was a courtesy passenger on the 2023 Giants roster, I don't have any other way to convince you.
I am contorting my argument to fit my belief? Ok. If that was the case, then this farewell tour stuff would be an open and closed case. You see it that way, I do not.
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If I had to choose which player(s) to feel for, it's the guys who busted their ass to make the team and play at/near the minimum. I wish those guys had the chance to make the playoffs or play in a meaningful game after Halloween.
In real terms, the 2019 Eli Manning Goodbye Yellow Brick Road tour kept 17M in his pocket, and out of the pockets of other football players. And none of those other players made anywhere near the ~quarter of a billion Manning made.
I am not telling fans who to feel for. I am saying that teams typically deal with iconic players a bit differently than your typical player. Now that does not mean they should give them a farewell tour, but they may take a bit more time laying the ground-work for that player's release or trade.
That's why I pointed to the Packers, who are the gold standard in the NFL as an organization.
They also had no problem drafting quarterbacks in round one, while they had iconic quarterbacks on the roster. It even pissed the icons off. Those icons even went and played for the Jets!
The Packers have had 5 losing seasons since Favre became the starter in 1992. The Giants have 5 in the last 6.
Those two quarterbacks seemed to become problems for the organization. Perhaps that helped move them out?
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In comment 16382701 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 16382697 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
I think, if you're willing to contort your argument to fit your belief (rather than the other way around), then you're right that we aren't likely to agree.
If Daboll was such a big Shepard fan, he sure had a weird way of showing it, considering Shepard's snap count reflects that he was the least involved WR on the roster, and it was a pretty stark indication. Here are the WR snap counts (on offense only) for the year:
Darius Slayton, 896 snaps (81.2%)
Wan'Dale Robinson, 641 snaps (58.1%)
Jalin Hyatt, 557 snaps (50.5%)
Isaiah Hodgins, 511 snaps (46.3%)
Parris Campbell, 207 snaps (18.8%)
Sterling Shepard, 142 snaps (12.9%)
Parris Campbell wound up basically a forgotten man by the halfway point, and even he had 46% more snaps than Shepard this past season. If you're unwilling to take that as evidence that there was a courtesy passenger on the 2023 Giants roster, I don't have any other way to convince you.
I am contorting my argument to fit my belief? Ok. If that was the case, then this farewell tour stuff would be an open and closed case. You see it that way, I do not.
Bold above and clipped out below is specifically what I'm referring to as the contortion:
If Daboll was such a big fan of having Shepard on the roster, someone should have reminded him on game day.
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In comment 16382720 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16382701 ChrisRick said:
Quote:
In comment 16382697 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
I think, if you're willing to contort your argument to fit your belief (rather than the other way around), then you're right that we aren't likely to agree.
If Daboll was such a big Shepard fan, he sure had a weird way of showing it, considering Shepard's snap count reflects that he was the least involved WR on the roster, and it was a pretty stark indication. Here are the WR snap counts (on offense only) for the year:
Darius Slayton, 896 snaps (81.2%)
Wan'Dale Robinson, 641 snaps (58.1%)
Jalin Hyatt, 557 snaps (50.5%)
Isaiah Hodgins, 511 snaps (46.3%)
Parris Campbell, 207 snaps (18.8%)
Sterling Shepard, 142 snaps (12.9%)
Parris Campbell wound up basically a forgotten man by the halfway point, and even he had 46% more snaps than Shepard this past season. If you're unwilling to take that as evidence that there was a courtesy passenger on the 2023 Giants roster, I don't have any other way to convince you.
I am contorting my argument to fit my belief? Ok. If that was the case, then this farewell tour stuff would be an open and closed case. You see it that way, I do not.
Bold above and clipped out below is specifically what I'm referring to as the contortion:
Quote:
I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster.
If Daboll was such a big fan of having Shepard on the roster, someone should have reminded him on game day.
But not all players play the same amount, he liked him as a reserve who may have added locker room leadership. What was Shepard making last year? Was it an unusual amount for a player like him?
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
THIS x100
I don't think their decisions were about trying to build the best football team they could.
YUP...
This ownership -- and that is who has the noose around the neck and hand up the GM puppets ass -- prioritizes sentimentality first and winning somewhere past PR and short term season ticket sales.
If a buffoon like McAdoo and also Reese could see Mahommes was someone to trade for and they were stamped out by ownership, then what reason do we have to believe that ownership aren't doing the exact same thing currently to stand on Schoen and Daboll's heads?
Bill L...
bw in dc : 3/19/2019 3:35 pm : link
Here's my bigger fear - actually winning with Eli.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
Thanks. Fortunately, this draft is another opportunity to correct the error of keeping Jones.
Starting March 13th (free agency begins) to April 27th (last day of the draft), this will be the most critical 45 days of Schoen's tenure as GM. And that will reveal how Schoen feels about his QB.
Who in the org chart is qualified to counter both the head coach and GM on a QB decision?
THIS is the smoking gun.
The same story has occurred over several regimes.
Same shit different day. Same owners. Gee... hard to put the dots together....
They also had no problem drafting quarterbacks in round one, while they had iconic quarterbacks on the roster. It even pissed the icons off. Those icons even went and played for the Jets!
The Packers have had 5 losing seasons since Favre became the starter in 1992. The Giants have 5 in the last 6.
Those two quarterbacks seemed to become problems for the organization. Perhaps that helped move them out?
If memory serves us correctly when did Favre and Rodgers become problems for the organization?
Also, did either ever get embroiled in a scheme to rip off fans with the equipment staff?
And while we're at it, what about the human element for Coughlin and especially Reese? Why was it ok to unceremoniously dump them? Coughlin got a press conference but we all saw how he felt about John Mara that day. And Reese...he got a cardboard box to carry his shit out the door - and hasn't been able to get a job since. Wonder why?
I really wish the team had been sold when Wellington died. It doesn't appear his children were adequately trained to take on this responsibility.
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I think they opted not to objectively assess Eli's performance. Further, I think they opted not to follow McAdoo's advice to pursue Mahomes or draft a QB in 2018 because it would threaten Eli.
I don't think their decisions were about trying to build the best football team they could.
YUP...
This ownership -- and that is who has the noose around the neck and hand up the GM puppets ass -- prioritizes sentimentality first and winning somewhere past PR and short term season ticket sales.
If a buffoon like McAdoo and also Reese could see Mahommes was someone to trade for and they were stamped out by ownership, then what reason do we have to believe that ownership aren't doing the exact same thing currently to stand on Schoen and Daboll's heads?
The funniest part of this is they still get bad PR and probably worse ticket sales using this approach.
I'm increasingly convinced they do this stuff for the approval of 20 percent of the fanbase and supporting guys they personally like (Barkley, Shepard, Jones) and literally everything else is secondary. I guess being known as an organization that treats its players well is the only benefit.
To think we've got people on BBI, who STILL do not want to draft a QB in the first round.
I really like the Packers model. They've never "needed" a QB in the last 25 plus years. They also got ahead of the 5th year option decision with Love and extended him.
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
I'd argue until a fainted that picking a QB in round one before you need it, is the right approach : )
Who in the org chart is qualified to counter both the head coach and GM on a QB decision?
It's a fair point. I only ever heard of McAdoo wanting Mahomes though, not Reese.
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
Eli gets to retire when he wants. Osi (who was there before Eli) and Tuck? Fuck them. And fuck Coughlin and Reese.
But hey the Giants are a class organization that treats its people right.
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
Yes, all Manning got out of those extra 20 games between 2018 and 2019 losing to the point of landing on a .500 record, which is going to be an obstacle for his Hall-of-Fame nomination.
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And if it's so that McAdoo and Reese both thought they should try to trade for Mahomes, then what voices overruled them?
Who in the org chart is qualified to counter both the head coach and GM on a QB decision?
THIS is the smoking gun.
The same story has occurred over several regimes.
Same shit different day. Same owners. Gee... hard to put the dots together....
Of all the many back-stories I would love to have more information on, what actually went down with the McAdoo-Mahomes discussion may be at the top of the list.
If you want to talk about a guy who got screwed by this organization, McAdoo is right at the top, too.
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
Eli gets to retire when he wants. Osi (who was there before Eli) and Tuck? Fuck them. And fuck Coughlin and Reese.
But hey the Giants are a class organization that treats its people right.
LOL the only thing missing in that Coughlin "retirement" press conference was an animatronic lion to feed Tom to at the end.
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Terps -- I believe it was the poster Chris in Philly who said it best. Something to the effect of "Manning deserves to retire when he wants to."
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
Eli gets to retire when he wants. Osi (who was there before Eli) and Tuck? Fuck them. And fuck Coughlin and Reese.
But hey the Giants are a class organization that treats its people right.
People will frame this whole scenario as John not wanting to follow his father's footsteps in cutting Simms. But guess what: cutting Simms was the right decision! That 1993 team was full of aging vets and was in the process of being turned over. The reason everyone got up in arms was due to the Giants - as always - having a lame and half-assed succession plan.
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That's why I pointed to the Packers, who are the gold standard in the NFL as an organization.
They also had no problem drafting quarterbacks in round one, while they had iconic quarterbacks on the roster. It even pissed the icons off. Those icons even went and played for the Jets!
The Packers have had 5 losing seasons since Favre became the starter in 1992. The Giants have 5 in the last 6.
Those two quarterbacks seemed to become problems for the organization. Perhaps that helped move them out?
If memory serves us correctly when did Favre and Rodgers become problems for the organization?
Also, did either ever get embroiled in a scheme to rip off fans with the equipment staff?
If I remember correctly, there were rifts with Favre and Ted Thompson. Weren't there also rifts with Rodgers and the front office and coaching staff?
As for your second question, is that a serious question or are you particapting in the same crabby responses that you complained about the other day?
And you are too dim to see the connection between five years ago and today. Lol.
I think you're a particularly unpleasant member of this community. Can you please agree to not post on the threads I start, and we both promise to not interact with each other?
It's just not the same as every other position in football...maybe even sport.
But surely the answer is to draft a new QB because he'll be able to figure out how to complete throws with a defender in his face within 2 seconds of the snap!
You make too much sense for this board.
And while we're at it, what about the human element for Coughlin and especially Reese? Why was it ok to unceremoniously dump them? Coughlin got a press conference but we all saw how he felt about John Mara that day. And Reese...he got a cardboard box to carry his shit out the door - and hasn't been able to get a job since. Wonder why?
I really wish the team had been sold when Wellington died. It doesn't appear his children were adequately trained to take on this responsibility.
I can't remember, were Tuck and Osi 'unceremoniously' dumped? I don't recall that.
Is it possible that Jerry Reese has not got another job because maybe he does want to be a GM or other teams around the league don't see the same value that you do?
Not everything is conspiracy.
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In comment 16382696 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 16382688 Go Terps said:
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If your answer is yes, then how do you account for the human element in kicking Eli to the curb?
This a bit tricky because of hindsight, no? To answer you question with the benefit of hindsight, absolutely the Giants should have made every effort to trade up for Mahomes and dealt with Eli then. A team can deal with the human element while also making the correct decision. The Giants did it with Armstead, Osi, Tuck etc. Treating your players well does not mean you aren't making the correct business decisions.
But it's not hindsight; the Giants' has coach at the time saw it and lobbied to trade up for Mahomes. McAdoo had the double benefit of being in the building but not having the sentimental tie to the Super Bowls. He knew Eli was in decline and he wanted to do something about it.
Mac liked him, who else in the organization liked him? The Giants have said that their process is collaborative. If Mac liked Mahomes, but others weren't so sure, especially with the price it would have taken to move up, I can see why he was overruled. It is hindsight because had the Giants front office known the player they would be getting in Mahomes there really would be no reason to not trade up no matter the cost. At the time, Mahomes was not one of the 'sure things'.
If memory serves us correctly when did Favre and Rodgers become problems for the organization?
Also, did either ever get embroiled in a scheme to rip off fans with the equipment staff?
If I remember correctly, there were rifts with Favre and Ted Thompson. Weren't there also rifts with Rodgers and the front office and coaching staff?
As for your second question, is that a serious question or are you particapting in the same crabby responses that you complained about the other day?
Completely serious question. If the debate is about causing problems for the organization, I found it very problematic Manning hustled fans and Mara had to payoff a lawsuit.
As to Favre and Rodgers, my recollection is those rifts took on legs because the team drafted their replacements, but I could certainly be wrong.
Obviously the Chiefs were more aggressive than the Giants, but was it ever reported that Mara vetoed going to get Mahomes? I always assumed they tried to move up for him but KC just got it done.
It's just not the same as every other position in football...maybe even sport.
I look at it as comparable to a number 1 option Giannis/Jokic/Curry type in basketball and a number 10 Messi/Mbappe type in soccer.
European soccer clubs are notoriously ruthless and unsentimental. If you want to be a top player, you're either winning your league or competing for the Champions League title or teams will look to replace you. There's competition around every corner.
There more leeway in basketball, but even then, if you fashion yourself an alpha, number 1 option, and you can't get past the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs, you're on your way to becoming trade bait and a number 2 or 3 option on a better team.
In the end, quarterbacks often get more privilege then the above, particularly if you play QB for the Giants.
Does that make any sense at all?
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If memory serves us correctly when did Favre and Rodgers become problems for the organization?
Also, did either ever get embroiled in a scheme to rip off fans with the equipment staff?
If I remember correctly, there were rifts with Favre and Ted Thompson. Weren't there also rifts with Rodgers and the front office and coaching staff?
As for your second question, is that a serious question or are you particapting in the same crabby responses that you complained about the other day?
Completely serious question. If the debate is about causing problems for the organization, I found it very problematic Manning hustled fans and Mara had to payoff a lawsuit.
As to Favre and Rodgers, my recollection is those rifts took on legs because the team drafted their replacements, but I could certainly be wrong.
That situation with Manning was a terrible look. If my recollection on Favre and Rodgers are right, I think there is a difference with a player at odds with the front office and coaching staff than a player who had a one-time error in judgement. One of those can be one and done, while the other can be an ongoing problem which could lead to a trade.
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In comment 16382698 Go Terps said:
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I think they opted not to objectively assess Eli's performance. Further, I think they opted not to follow McAdoo's advice to pursue Mahomes or draft a QB in 2018 because it would threaten Eli.
I don't think their decisions were about trying to build the best football team they could.
YUP...
This ownership -- and that is who has the noose around the neck and hand up the GM puppets ass -- prioritizes sentimentality first and winning somewhere past PR and short term season ticket sales.
If a buffoon like McAdoo and also Reese could see Mahommes was someone to trade for and they were stamped out by ownership, then what reason do we have to believe that ownership aren't doing the exact same thing currently to stand on Schoen and Daboll's heads?
The funniest part of this is they still get bad PR and probably worse ticket sales using this approach.
I'm increasingly convinced they do this stuff for the approval of 20 percent of the fanbase and supporting guys they personally like (Barkley, Shepard, Jones) and literally everything else is secondary. I guess being known as an organization that treats its players well is the only benefit.
Exactly. I think this is pretty close to the truth.
It is hilarious but this half measures stuff is what keeps us embroiled in an endless cycle of mediocrity.
News flash to the Maras, winning is what fans want. Not to watch nice guys that we like get pummeled on 5-12 teams.
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
Yippee.
I have incredibly fond memories of 2017-2019. Oh wait, I don't remember anything except Eli's last game and being thankful he didn't have to get murdered behind a joke of an o-line and play on this shit team any longer.
But at least we got to see him hang it up on his terms while we delayed a rebuild and toiled in mediocrity for 2-3 years more than necessary.
Eli was/is an all time great Giant. That doesn't mean the organization handled the transition well. If you are more a fan of nostalgia than current/future even, than how the Giants operate aligns very closely with your views.
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Terps -- I believe it was the poster Chris in Philly who said it best. Something to the effect of "Manning deserves to retire when he wants to."
John Mara felt that way, and a surprising amount of fans felt that way.
Me, I thought it was rough to watch Manning get beat like a bag, the team be terrible, and the organization founder. But Manning got to retire when he wanted to -- so yay us.
Eli gets to retire when he wants. Osi (who was there before Eli) and Tuck? Fuck them. And fuck Coughlin and Reese.
But hey the Giants are a class organization that treats its people right.
Perhaps Mara has "Eyes Wide Shut" secret mixers in an underground lair below Metlife Stadium with his favorites Eli, Jones, Barkley, Shepard etc.. It's an exclusive club according to Mara's type. And everyone has incriminating evidence on each other, hence the kid gloves.
Obviously the Chiefs were more aggressive than the Giants, but was it ever reported that Mara vetoed going to get Mahomes? I always assumed they tried to move up for him but KC just got it done.
Considering where we were drafting that year, higher than the Chiefs, we could have offered a better package to the Bills to move him.
We were 23rd in the first round. The Chiefs were 27th.
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In comment 16382714 Go Terps said:
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And if it's so that McAdoo and Reese both thought they should try to trade for Mahomes, then what voices overruled them?
Who in the org chart is qualified to counter both the head coach and GM on a QB decision?
THIS is the smoking gun.
The same story has occurred over several regimes.
Same shit different day. Same owners. Gee... hard to put the dots together....
Of all the many back-stories I would love to have more information on, what actually went down with the McAdoo-Mahomes discussion may be at the top of the list.
If you want to talk about a guy who got screwed by this organization, McAdoo is right at the top, too.
Agreed.
As much as McAdoo was made out to be a fool and a doofus in an oversized suit, ironically he was the only in that building who demonstrated CEO traits. Unemotional in regard to decisions, and improving the bottom line on the field even if it meant doing the hard things. Mara and the entire ownership could have learned something, but they didn't, and still haven't.
If we had more of McAdoo's mentality we would be winners instead of the league's bottom feeders. Try to reconcile that.
There’s a reason he hasn’t been a serious hire anywhere since his firing.
Yup.
You can't and shouldn't be friends with everyone in business. It's the same reason they say working with family is something you should avoid in business if you can help it. It gets messy and clouds your judgement and you feel you cannot make the right decision because the relationship is then threatened. The funny thing is the Giants have made it a culture that everyone becomes their family!
This is the Giants to a T. Relationships over results. The Giants way.
Does that make any sense at all?
Eyes Wide Shut
There’s a reason he hasn’t been a serious hire anywhere since his firing.
I am not a McAdoo guy, but the way Mara fired him was bush league.
Mara made him (and Reese) the fall guy for the Eli benching. In fact, Mara asked McAdoo and Reese to draw up their plan how the Eli benching would work. He signed-off on it. But when the media and fans became emotional basket cases when Eli cried on TV, Mara quickly distanced him from his decision and drove the bus after he threw him under it.
What a class act, huh?
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the Giants organization failed Eli Manning after the second Super Bowl by allowing the offensive line to deteriorate. They then decided that Eli as the QB was getting old and a newly drafted QB could overcome any problems on the o-line. Enter DJ. But sadly he was not able to overcome the problems the porous o-line created.
But surely the answer is to draft a new QB because he'll be able to figure out how to complete throws with a defender in his face within 2 seconds of the snap!
You make too much sense for this board.
You wouldn't be able to identify "sense" with both hands and a proctologist's assistance.
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In comment 16382730 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 16382720 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16382701 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 16382697 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
I think, if you're willing to contort your argument to fit your belief (rather than the other way around), then you're right that we aren't likely to agree.
If Daboll was such a big Shepard fan, he sure had a weird way of showing it, considering Shepard's snap count reflects that he was the least involved WR on the roster, and it was a pretty stark indication. Here are the WR snap counts (on offense only) for the year:
Darius Slayton, 896 snaps (81.2%)
Wan'Dale Robinson, 641 snaps (58.1%)
Jalin Hyatt, 557 snaps (50.5%)
Isaiah Hodgins, 511 snaps (46.3%)
Parris Campbell, 207 snaps (18.8%)
Sterling Shepard, 142 snaps (12.9%)
Parris Campbell wound up basically a forgotten man by the halfway point, and even he had 46% more snaps than Shepard this past season. If you're unwilling to take that as evidence that there was a courtesy passenger on the 2023 Giants roster, I don't have any other way to convince you.
I am contorting my argument to fit my belief? Ok. If that was the case, then this farewell tour stuff would be an open and closed case. You see it that way, I do not.
Bold above and clipped out below is specifically what I'm referring to as the contortion:
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I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster.
If Daboll was such a big fan of having Shepard on the roster, someone should have reminded him on game day.
But not all players play the same amount, he liked him as a reserve who may have added locker room leadership. What was Shepard making last year? Was it an unusual amount for a player like him?
How many punts did he return when the Giants needed a punt returner and had to cut Crowder to keep Shepard?
More importantly, how many sacred cows will need to be kept on the roster over a long enough period of time before you at least consider the possibility of a weepy-eyed team president asking the GM and HC if they can find a spot on the roster for [insert player here] because it would really mean a lot to the fans?
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Out of anything.
There’s a reason he hasn’t been a serious hire anywhere since his firing.
I am not a McAdoo guy, but the way Mara fired him was bush league.
Mara made him (and Reese) the fall guy for the Eli benching. In fact, Mara asked McAdoo and Reese to draw up their plan how the Eli benching would work. He signed-off on it. But when the media and fans became emotional basket cases when Eli cried on TV, Mara quickly distanced him from his decision and drove the bus after he threw him under it.
What a class act, huh?
I completely agree with this.
Eli was/is an all time great Giant. That doesn't mean the organization handled the transition well. If you are more a fan of nostalgia than current/future even, than how the Giants operate aligns very closely with your views.
To be fair, the org failed Eli with what they put in front of him in the last years of his prime. I think everyone can agree to that. Tough to transition to a new guy when you keep trotting out one of the worst OLs in the league and a revolving door of coaches and schemes. Ugh. This team is still a mess. I hope Schoen and Daboll have a rebound year and actually start pushing this team forward again. Build the lines, build the depth to adequate, get another pass rusher.... a real TE. And yes, a QB as well if you have real conviction.
The 2017 season was a complete disaster from almost every angle - injuries, Eli hit his expiration date, immature players, etc.
If you want to lay all of the blame at McAdoo's doorstep, fine. I just think it was more complicated than that and Mara was too daft to see that Eli did hit his expiration date...
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McAdoo was canned even before the benching. Players had quit on him. He lost the locker room. And let’s be honest - he sucked that year as a coach. He was suppose to be an offensive guy and it got worse when he became coach.
The 2017 season was a complete disaster from almost every angle - injuries, Eli hit his expiration date, immature players, etc.
If you want to lay all of the blame at McAdoo's doorstep, fine. I just think it was more complicated than that and Mara was too daft to see that Eli did hit his expiration date...
Could be. But I was also ok cleaning house from Eli, to Reese, to McAdoo.
The problem was we stuck with one, hired a worse GM, and still drafted shitty players.
He made the comment that Davis Webb was drafted with no input from Macadoo. He even commented Macadoo had never even seem him throw
This was pretty eye opening to me - taking a QB anywhere in the draft, I'd think the head coaches input would rank high? (especially for Macadoo - who at the time had the reputation of being some kind of QB whisperer.)
It was also reported that Davis Webb was a favorite of the Chris Mara faction of the scouting department.
Seemed very telling to me...
As much as McAdoo was made out to be a fool and a doofus in an oversized suit, ironically he was the only in that building who demonstrated CEO traits
Maybe he should have been a CEO then, because his offense in 2016 and 17 blew chunks.
Where is he now?
What do Quaker Oats have to do with winning football games?
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or anyone selling Quaker Oats on tv right now? Eli is a special case. He cant be used as an example. Maybe Namath but I was maybe an infant but probably not born yet.
What do Quaker Oats have to do with winning football games?
Absolutely nothing, but this is why Eli cant be used as a comparison to any other situation. It may have caused bad decisions to be made, but not in a vacuum.
The team has sucked Christian, not just the QB. I know you know this. Our roster still isn't all that close to any of the top 10 or even 12 teams in the playoffs this year. We don't have enough horses, especially on the OL and TE for the offense. Since forever it feels.
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As much as McAdoo was made out to be a fool and a doofus in an oversized suit, ironically he was the only in that building who demonstrated CEO traits
Maybe he should have been a CEO then, because his offense in 2016 and 17 blew chunks.
Where is he now?
Mike Sullivan was the offensive coordinator in 2016 and 2017.
Mike Sullivan was the offensive coordinator in 2016 and 2017.
McAdoo called the plays in 2016 I believe and for the first 5-6 games in 2017.
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or anyone selling Quaker Oats on tv right now? Eli is a special case. He cant be used as an example. Maybe Namath but I was maybe an infant but probably not born yet.
What do Quaker Oats have to do with winning football games?
They are delicious, rich in nutrient and fiber, antioxidants. Should be part of any balanced diet. What do they NOT have to do with winning football games?
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In comment 16382831 GiantTuff1 said:
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As much as McAdoo was made out to be a fool and a doofus in an oversized suit, ironically he was the only in that building who demonstrated CEO traits
Maybe he should have been a CEO then, because his offense in 2016 and 17 blew chunks.
Where is he now?
Mike Sullivan was the offensive coordinator in 2016 and 2017.
Still his offense now, c'mon.
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In comment 16382877 BillKo said:
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In comment 16382831 GiantTuff1 said:
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As much as McAdoo was made out to be a fool and a doofus in an oversized suit, ironically he was the only in that building who demonstrated CEO traits
Maybe he should have been a CEO then, because his offense in 2016 and 17 blew chunks.
Where is he now?
Mike Sullivan was the offensive coordinator in 2016 and 2017.
Still his offense now, c'mon.
I believe its a version of the Air Coryell offense. Why no name tight ends sometimes were wide open.
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As much as McAdoo was made out to be a fool and a doofus in an oversized suit, ironically he was the only in that building who demonstrated CEO traits
Maybe he should have been a CEO then, because his offense in 2016 and 17 blew chunks.
Where is he now?
The point is if he was allowed actually make decisions and draft Mahommes like he wanted that's more balls and CEO than Mara's demonstrated.
And we would have been far better off for it as a team. Instead, we get to see Sterling Shepard attempt to catch touchdowns in his final game as we finish another losing season.
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or anyone selling Quaker Oats on tv right now? Eli is a special case. He cant be used as an example. Maybe Namath but I was maybe an infant but probably not born yet.
What do Quaker Oats have to do with winning football games?
Terps you are missing the point.
Franks Red Hot. Toyota. It all equates to winning football games, don't you see?
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In comment 16382877 BillKo said:
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In comment 16382831 GiantTuff1 said:
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As much as McAdoo was made out to be a fool and a doofus in an oversized suit, ironically he was the only in that building who demonstrated CEO traits
Maybe he should have been a CEO then, because his offense in 2016 and 17 blew chunks.
Where is he now?
Mike Sullivan was the offensive coordinator in 2016 and 2017.
Still his offense now, c'mon.
Bullshit. Was it the same offense as 2014 and 2015?
And before you try to say that that was Coughlin's offense, did 2014 and 2015 resemble the Gilbride years in any way?
Whose defense did the Giants execute in 1986 and 1990? Was that Belichick's defense or Parcells'?
Mike Sullivan was the OC in 2016 and 2017. Not coincidentally, Mike Sullivan was also dreadful in his prior OC job as well. Because Mike Sullivan (a Coughlin disciple, so that's probably why people don't like to shit on him) fucking sucks as an NFL OC. And he's not so great as a QB coach either, as evidenced by his work over the past couple of years with Kenny Pickett.
McAdoo, on the other hand, was a bad HC, but he only got a HC opportunity in the first place because he was a good OC. The 2016 and 2017 offense is Sullivan's. The numbers support that if you go look at Tampa's offense under Schiano (when Sullivan was OC) and the Giants' offense in 2016 and 2017.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 16382878 Pete in MD said:
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or anyone selling Quaker Oats on tv right now? Eli is a special case. He cant be used as an example. Maybe Namath but I was maybe an infant but probably not born yet.
What do Quaker Oats have to do with winning football games?
They are delicious, rich in nutrient and fiber, antioxidants. Should be part of any balanced diet. What do they NOT have to do with winning football games?
but Belichick liked to fuck with people. He had two DL against Buffalo in that Super Bowl and let the run happen.
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In comment 16382888 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16382877 BillKo said:
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In comment 16382831 GiantTuff1 said:
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As much as McAdoo was made out to be a fool and a doofus in an oversized suit, ironically he was the only in that building who demonstrated CEO traits
Maybe he should have been a CEO then, because his offense in 2016 and 17 blew chunks.
Where is he now?
Mike Sullivan was the offensive coordinator in 2016 and 2017.
Still his offense now, c'mon.
I believe its a version of the Air Coryell offense. Why no name tight ends sometimes were wide open.
Neither Sullivan nor McAdoo have Air Coryell pedigree.
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In comment 16382912 BillKo said:
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In comment 16382888 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16382877 BillKo said:
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In comment 16382831 GiantTuff1 said:
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As much as McAdoo was made out to be a fool and a doofus in an oversized suit, ironically he was the only in that building who demonstrated CEO traits
Maybe he should have been a CEO then, because his offense in 2016 and 17 blew chunks.
Where is he now?
Mike Sullivan was the offensive coordinator in 2016 and 2017.
Still his offense now, c'mon.
I believe its a version of the Air Coryell offense. Why no name tight ends sometimes were wide open.
Neither Sullivan nor McAdoo have Air Coryell pedigree.
Same offense, been around for decades. No need to coach together.
When TC left we got the full BM offense.
The fact that some Giants' fans then (and even now) preferred a few years of warm and fuzzy goodbyes to Eli, rather than taking steps to get better, boggles the mind.
Well, ok, what was the huge difference between the two coaches "schematically"?
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in either McAdoo's or Sullivan's offenses, schematically. Are you sure you're not confusing either of them with Jason Garrett?
Well, ok, what was the huge difference between the two coaches "schematically"?
Why don't we start with what are the Air Coryell influences that you observed, coach?
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In comment 16382733 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16382730 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 16382720 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16382701 ChrisRick said:
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In comment 16382697 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Did you not see the Sterling Shepard farewell tour this past season? Not only did it include a roster spot for Shep all season that could have gone to a WR with return skills (Schoen went so far as to say that they originally kept Gray as the PR because of a numbers crunch at WR that left them with not enough spots to carry a veteran with return experience), it also included several manufactured attempts to give Shep a farewell TD reception at the very end.
This franchise is guided by storyline more than by winning. If they weren't, Crowder would have made the opening day 53 over Shepard, 100 times out of 100.
You feel Daboll was forced to keep Shepard for an orchestrated farewell tour, I do not necessarily believe that. I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster. We aren't likely to agree on this.
I think, if you're willing to contort your argument to fit your belief (rather than the other way around), then you're right that we aren't likely to agree.
If Daboll was such a big Shepard fan, he sure had a weird way of showing it, considering Shepard's snap count reflects that he was the least involved WR on the roster, and it was a pretty stark indication. Here are the WR snap counts (on offense only) for the year:
Darius Slayton, 896 snaps (81.2%)
Wan'Dale Robinson, 641 snaps (58.1%)
Jalin Hyatt, 557 snaps (50.5%)
Isaiah Hodgins, 511 snaps (46.3%)
Parris Campbell, 207 snaps (18.8%)
Sterling Shepard, 142 snaps (12.9%)
Parris Campbell wound up basically a forgotten man by the halfway point, and even he had 46% more snaps than Shepard this past season. If you're unwilling to take that as evidence that there was a courtesy passenger on the 2023 Giants roster, I don't have any other way to convince you.
I am contorting my argument to fit my belief? Ok. If that was the case, then this farewell tour stuff would be an open and closed case. You see it that way, I do not.
Bold above and clipped out below is specifically what I'm referring to as the contortion:
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I think it is quite possible that Daboll liked Shepard as a player on the roster.
If Daboll was such a big fan of having Shepard on the roster, someone should have reminded him on game day.
But not all players play the same amount, he liked him as a reserve who may have added locker room leadership. What was Shepard making last year? Was it an unusual amount for a player like him?
How many punts did he return when the Giants needed a punt returner and had to cut Crowder to keep Shepard?
More importantly, how many sacred cows will need to be kept on the roster over a long enough period of time before you at least consider the possibility of a weepy-eyed team president asking the GM and HC if they can find a spot on the roster for [insert player here] because it would really mean a lot to the fans?
I don’t know why they cut Crowder. I never once said that it is not a possibility that the team is giving these players farewell tours. I consider what people tell me even if I don’t agree with it. Me not seeing something the same as you does not mean I think it is impossible or wrong. This whole discussion started out with posters saying successful teams take the human element out of the roster building equation. I strongly disagree with that. Some teams navigate it better than others. I think for the most part, teams care about their players and I think that is the right thing to do.
I will not stand for you disparaging Quaker Oats my good sir!
It's especially funny because I never said "NO LINK" (or "KNOW LINK") - I said "zero evidence of Coryell influence" which is pretty clearly about the current offensive scheme that the coach uses, not the evolution of modern football.
There are elements of the single wing in modern football also, but I wouldn't call any current coach a Pop Warner disciple.
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in the breakfast hierarchy of "good" they are LOW on the list.
I will not stand for you disparaging Quaker Oats my good sir!
And yes they are gross. Would rather eat a carpet.
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no link
It's especially funny because I never said "NO LINK" (or "KNOW LINK") - I said "zero evidence of Coryell influence" which is pretty clearly about the current offensive scheme that the coach uses, not the evolution of modern football.
There are elements of the single wing in modern football also, but I wouldn't call any current coach a Pop Warner disciple.
you didn't say link? But single wing, not at all. There are 11 dudes on the field so we can agree on that.
Original point, those two coaches had no innovative different playbooks.
Fassel actually did because of that crazy pre-snap shit different story. It wasn't "different" just meant to confusing from the staring point. He was actually trying to do what defenses do.
He never had to cut him, he never had to trade him, and he only ever had to replace with a guy who could be his stand-in.
A not so small part of the fan base has pity for Manning. Imagine that. He made 230M, won 2 Super Bowls, left the game with his health, and is famous beyond measure.
Coughlin was unceremoniously dumped, Reese was setup and dumped, Gilbride was pushed out, McAdoo was emasculated and dumped.
The two most gracious exits ended up being Gettleman of all people and Manning.
He never had to cut him, he never had to trade him, and he only ever had to replace with a guy who could be his stand-in.
A not so small part of the fan base has pity for Manning. Imagine that. He made 230M, won 2 Super Bowls, left the game with his health, and is famous beyond measure.
Coughlin was unceremoniously dumped, Reese was setup and dumped, Gilbride was pushed out, McAdoo was emasculated and dumped.
The two most gracious exits ended up being Gettleman of all people and Manning.
The Gettleman exit I'll never understand. In trying to understand it, I can only speculate that Gettleman's health, age and fan ridicule allowed for the "retirement" and family photos.
I don't think Coughlin got a raw deal. The team went 6-10, 7-9 & 7-9. Reese got a longer stay than Coughlin which I don't think was outrageous given Reese's age.
Coughlin also ran to the Eagles not even 5 minutes after being out of the building.
I also believe Reese deserved to lose his job after the 2015 season, but the "fix it or else" and Manning charade was embarrassing to him.
The Giants had a lot to learn about just telling people thank you, and moving on.
I also believe Reese deserved to lose his job after the 2015 season, but the "fix it or else" and Manning charade was embarrassing to him.
The Giants had a lot to learn about just telling people thank you, and moving on.
Very well said. The Mara win mandate for Reese in 2015 was incredibly short sighted. There was never a long term plan.
Mara needed to have a honest conversation with himself after 2013. This is when the win or else mandates began for Coughlin and the staff. This is when the scapegoating really began as well. It would have been better to overhaul everything after 2013 as opposed to scapegoating someone each season without really changing anything.
Pretty amazing because when significant people leave a organization (whatever the terms) you always tend to see a lot of appreciation and respect.
That tells a story that seems to say a lot without any words imv.
I think he actually said that at a press conference.
The Giants have had a lot of people in recent years who, for whatever reason, haven't worked out. And while it's disappointing it's very rare to actually detest anyone.
I detest Gettleman. Besides being incompetent he came across like an arrogant jerk and a misogynistic scumbag. A bad person. If one can be judged by their friends it's troubling that he was highly thought of enough by ownership to get the treatment he did. He was an embarrassment.
Pat Hanlon, if you're out there (for some reason I hear his voice when I read Mbavaro's posts), this planted attempt to humanize Gettleman before you announced he was keeping his job was fucking pathetic...
Gettleman was a driver's ed teacher... - ( New Window )
It’s amazing how far beyond that some people go with him. Sounds like a you problem more than a Gettleman problem.
Pretty amazing because when significant people leave a organization (whatever the terms) you always tend to see a lot of appreciation and respect.
That tells a story that seems to say a lot without any words imv.
A lot of those Giant champion players celebrated the Gettleman hire. How did that work out?
I will agree with you about Marc Ross, he should have been let go way sooner. But, then what does it tell you that Marc Ross was one of four interviews for GM in 2017? Ross was interviewed for GM after Reese was fired. Not good.
As for a GM, I don't want them being buddies with the players. I want them making non emotional decisions.
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I think there’s a good shot that Gettleman watched that 17 season home game vs. the Eagles & told John-who probably wanted to hear it-that Eli still had gas left in the tank.
I think he actually said that at a press conference.
The Giants have had a lot of people in recent years who, for whatever reason, haven't worked out. And while it's disappointing it's very rare to actually detest anyone.
I detest Gettleman. Besides being incompetent he came across like an arrogant jerk and a misogynistic scumbag. A bad person. If one can be judged by their friends it's troubling that he was highly thought of enough by ownership to get the treatment he did. He was an embarrassment.
Pat Hanlon, if you're out there (for some reason I hear his voice when I read Mbavaro's posts), this planted attempt to humanize Gettleman before you announced he was keeping his job was fucking pathetic... Gettleman was a driver's ed teacher... - ( New Window )
But that's a fucking charming story
I think my work here is done.
Oh no doubt. The era was over by the end of 2015. The Giants needed new blood and new eyes on the situation.
A GM and coach from the outside would have been more objective about Manning and the state of the team.
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The original sin-if you will-was not letting both TC & Reese go after the '15 season. Instead John-in a classic half measure-lets Reese act like a sailor on shore leave that offseason heading into the '16 season in an attempt to save for Jerry to save his job. Then we have the sugar high of the '16 season before it all came crashing down in '17, followed promptly by EA doing a buddy a solid & us hiring Gettleman after an 'extensive' hiring process. The whole thing sucked.
Oh no doubt. The era was over by the end of 2015. The Giants needed new blood and new eyes on the situation.
A GM and coach from the outside would have been more objective about Manning and the state of the team.
How come that didn't happen last year?
You win the contest for the most metaphors in one paragraph. But I will cut you some slack, you covered all of the bases.
I like Terps, but if Wellington sold as he referenced above, you could say goodbye to those 07 & 11 Super Bowl titles. A new owner would have almost certainly cleaned house after 2006 in that hypothetical scenario.
But, I think Mara is very guided by history. He got two titles as an owner where patience paid off in the case of Coughlin and Manning. Now, the patience is not consistent. McAdoo, Shurmur and Judge were all NOT given patience. But, I do think he believes if he can just get the pieces right around Jones, he can have a run like the prior two Super Bowl teams. You just can't operate that way.
I think the injuries will help push Mara to signing off on a lottery pick QB, but it will be hard to win in this league now if you wait that long to see your ideal vision coming through. It most likely won't. It's also disrespectful to Manning to assume that a QB such as Jones can accomplish what he did.
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In comment 16382962 Dnew15 said:
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in the breakfast hierarchy of "good" they are LOW on the list.
I will not stand for you disparaging Quaker Oats my good sir!
And yes they are gross. Would rather eat a carpet.
They are useful, however, in fighting against diabeatus.
I like Terps, but if Wellington sold as he referenced above, you could say goodbye to those 07 & 11 Super Bowl titles. A new owner would have almost certainly cleaned house after 2006 in that hypothetical scenario.
But, I think Mara is very guided by history. He got two titles as an owner where patience paid off in the case of Coughlin and Manning. Now, the patience is not consistent. McAdoo, Shurmur and Judge were all NOT given patience. But, I do think he believes if he can just get the pieces right around Jones, he can have a run like the prior two Super Bowl teams. You just can't operate that way.
I think the injuries will help push Mara to signing off on a lottery pick QB, but it will be hard to win in this league now if you wait that long to see your ideal vision coming through. It most likely won't. It's also disrespectful to Manning to assume that a QB such as Jones can accomplish what he did.
Mara must remember that he was part of the group convincing his old man to move off Collins.
It’s a bit of a role reversal now but he should be able to see it.
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In comment 16382968 Pete in MD said:
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In comment 16382962 Dnew15 said:
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in the breakfast hierarchy of "good" they are LOW on the list.
I will not stand for you disparaging Quaker Oats my good sir!
And yes they are gross. Would rather eat a carpet.
They are useful, however, in fighting against diabeatus.
Let's make the leap and assume Macadoo really did want him and was blocked by the Giants. Do we really think the Mahones in KC we see now is the version we'd get. Put Mahones on the team we had, with the talent we had and our coaches and is he the same player? People always forget he landed in the perfect spot to blossom. He landed on a team that was winning consistently with Alex Smith as the QB. He got the chance to come in, learn and take off the reigns of a really good team, which is not the mess he would have come to in the Giants. Who knows what he would of turned into on the Giants.
Too often we evaluate players like they can be rated and evaluated like some Madden NFL PlayStation player. His speed is 98, passing 78, etc... In reality, it's a lot of factors that need to play out on both sides for a player to be great, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
Lastly, I think we should probably stop bringing this up until/if we find out what really happened in that draft room. Was he really overruled? Did they try to trade, and KC outbid them? What was asked in the trade? Did it ever get that far? Why was he overruled?
Reese never gave public details when asked subsequently, but they either just didn't pull the trigger in the end, or weren't willing to offer enough to move up and get it done. But it wasn't as if they just blocked McAdoo's interest imv.
It's that if he accomplished half as much, it'd be exponentially more than the hit parade the Giants have put out there.
Let's make the leap and assume Macadoo really did want him and was blocked by the Giants. Do we really think the Mahones in KC we see now is the version we'd get. Put Mahones on the team we had, with the talent we had and our coaches and is he the same player? People always forget he landed in the perfect spot to blossom. He landed on a team that was winning consistently with Alex Smith as the QB. He got the chance to come in, learn and take off the reigns of a really good team, which is not the mess he would have come to in the Giants. Who knows what he would of turned into on the Giants.
Too often we evaluate players like they can be rated and evaluated like some Madden NFL PlayStation player. His speed is 98, passing 78, etc... In reality, it's a lot of factors that need to play out on both sides for a player to be great, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
Lastly, I think we should probably stop bringing this up until/if we find out what really happened in that draft room. Was he really overruled? Did they try to trade, and KC outbid them? What was asked in the trade? Did it ever get that far? Why was he overruled?
Agreed. Mahomes took a very good team to the next level. This team has had more issues than just QB over the last 12 years. He would make the team better obviously, but how much? Would he have stayed healthy behind this OL? Would he have fit in McAdoo's scheme? Interesting questions to think about.... but he clearly found a great landing spot. Reid is a great coach, and that organization has been very stable since he was hired.
It's that if he accomplished half as much, it'd be exponentially more than the hit parade the Giants have put out there.
Maybe he gets in a game and tears his Achilles in this alternate universe. Maybe the scheme he plays under doesn't allow him to thrive or gets him killed. At the end of the day, we have no idea what would have happened or exactly we we'll never know who was at fault.
It's that if he accomplished half as much, it'd be exponentially more than the hit parade the Giants have put out there.
Maybe he gets in a game and tears his Achilles in this alternate universe. Maybe the scheme he plays under doesn't allow him to thrive or gets him killed. At the end of the day, we have no idea what would have happened or exactly we we'll never know who was at fault.
Just so I'm getting this straight -- you're jumping into a thread where fans are discussing the past and what ifs -- and your contribution is "we have no idea what would have happened."
I mean yeah, the surly bonds of physics do in fact keep us from rewinding time, but that's why it's called what if.
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I don't think anyone is under the illusion Mahomes would be the same guy as a Giant as he is a Chief.
It's that if he accomplished half as much, it'd be exponentially more than the hit parade the Giants have put out there.
Maybe he gets in a game and tears his Achilles in this alternate universe. Maybe the scheme he plays under doesn't allow him to thrive or gets him killed. At the end of the day, we have no idea what would have happened or exactly we we'll never know who was at fault.
Just so I'm getting this straight -- you're jumping into a thread where fans are discussing the past and what ifs -- and your contribution is "we have no idea what would have happened."
I mean yeah, the surly bonds of physics do in fact keep us from rewinding time, but that's why it's called what if.
I'm fine with "What ifs" on a sport site like BBI. The problem is we don't acknowledge our lack of knowledge in those "What ifs." We take half a story, a nugget of unverified truth and hold that up as fact in those "what if'." We then recommend decisions and give our opinion on those unverified stories to change our what ifs to facts. We make conclusions on the overall state of the franchise based on that information. In this thread alone I've read three or four versions of a story in which several posters have made up their mind on.
I think we know Mahomes is an exquisitely talented player, extremely tough, cool under pressure, and comes up big in the biggest spots.
Does that translate to multiple Super Bowls and MVP caliber seasons without a great coach like Reid? Probably not. But are the fortunes of the Giants better with him over Manning Corpse and Daniel Jones? I'd bet a tall boy that's a yes.
It is just amazing to me the stubborn nature of people.
THe Giants should have moved on from Eli Manning x years ago even though he put up top 10 passing numbers. huh?
It is just amazing to me the stubborn nature of people.
THe Giants should have moved on from Eli Manning x years ago even though he put up top 10 passing numbers. huh?
Given how reality unfolded, stubborn might not mean exactly what you think it does.
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....in 2018.
It is just amazing to me the stubborn nature of people.
THe Giants should have moved on from Eli Manning x years ago even though he put up top 10 passing numbers. huh?
Given how reality unfolded, stubborn might not mean exactly what you think it does.
Right stubborn doesn't mean stubborn. Like 5 years later of hearing from my neighbor how Eli doesn't have "it" to reading about the same thing here 5 years later on a 5 win team ....
Just like finding equivalency between Lamar Jackson's playoff game yesterday and post season record, and Dan Marino never winning a SB, and Peyton Manning having a few bad games early in his career in the playoffs isn't really a comparing them.
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I think there’s a good shot that Gettleman watched that 17 season home game vs. the Eagles & told John-who probably wanted to hear it-that Eli still had gas left in the tank.
I think he actually said that at a press conference.
The Giants have had a lot of people in recent years who, for whatever reason, haven't worked out. And while it's disappointing it's very rare to actually detest anyone.
I detest Gettleman. Besides being incompetent he came across like an arrogant jerk and a misogynistic scumbag. A bad person. If one can be judged by their friends it's troubling that he was highly thought of enough by ownership to get the treatment he did. He was an embarrassment.
Pat Hanlon, if you're out there (for some reason I hear his voice when I read Mbavaro's posts), this planted attempt to humanize Gettleman before you announced he was keeping his job was fucking pathetic... Gettleman was a driver's ed teacher... - ( New Window )
The way Gettleman was allowed to exit this franchise was a slap in the face to the entire fanbase, for all of the reasons you state.
The Giants will have walked away from their highest pick in the draft in decades not with a cornerstone 10-15 year franchise changing player. Not the accrual of more picks in trade down to build a better roster. But a quickly aging running back who has a better than even chance of not being on the roster next year. All of this while Gettleman openly mocked everyone citing analytics as a reason not to invest so highly in the position. Lest we forget the trade up to select Deandre Baker or the trade down to select the immortal Yung Joka.
But that guy a soft send off...
It is just amazing to me the stubborn nature of people.
THe Giants should have moved on from Eli Manning x years ago even though he put up top 10 passing numbers. huh?
Eli racked up most of his passing yards during a 1-7 start to the season in which most people who watched the games thought that he did not look very good.
Let's make the leap and assume Macadoo really did want him and was blocked by the Giants. Do we really think the Mahones in KC we see now is the version we'd get. Put Mahones on the team we had, with the talent we had and our coaches and is he the same player? People always forget he landed in the perfect spot to blossom. He landed on a team that was winning consistently with Alex Smith as the QB. He got the chance to come in, learn and take off the reigns of a really good team, which is not the mess he would have come to in the Giants. Who knows what he would of turned into on the Giants.
Too often we evaluate players like they can be rated and evaluated like some Madden NFL PlayStation player. His speed is 98, passing 78, etc... In reality, it's a lot of factors that need to play out on both sides for a player to be great, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
Lastly, I think we should probably stop bringing this up until/if we find out what really happened in that draft room. Was he really overruled? Did they try to trade, and KC outbid them? What was asked in the trade? Did it ever get that far? Why was he overruled?
We all assume that the what?
WE ALL ASSUME THAT THE WHAT???
Also, it's would have, not would of. And Mahomes, not Mahones. And McAdoo, not Macadoo. And reins, not reigns.
I've mentioned this before - Jerry Reese and his two rings were fired while Dave Gettleman got a little ceremony and was allowed to retired. That doesn't sit well with me.
I've mentioned this before - Jerry Reese and his two rings were fired while Dave Gettleman got a little ceremony and was allowed to retired. That doesn't sit well with me.
Well the bold move was to fire Reese in 2012, so ya know
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But that guy a soft send off...
I've mentioned this before - Jerry Reese and his two rings were fired while Dave Gettleman got a little ceremony and was allowed to retired. That doesn't sit well with me.
And he was fired for proceeding with the QB plan which Mara had approved.
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In comment 16383791 lax counsel said:
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But that guy a soft send off...
I've mentioned this before - Jerry Reese and his two rings were fired while Dave Gettleman got a little ceremony and was allowed to retired. That doesn't sit well with me.
And he was fired for proceeding with the QB plan which Mara had approved.
Not only did Mara approve it, he requested it!
And people who leave the Giants don't typically get equivalent second chances elsewhere. Fassel, Reese, McAdoo, Shurmur & Judge all have never got another role equal to what they had at NYG. We all thought Fassel was a lock to get another HC job.
Can we not mix things please? It is one thing to bench a 2x SB MVP for pre-Cinderella story Geno Smith (who barely completed 50% of his passes and lost to a shitty Raiders team) only to watch his peers in his draft class play for years after his retirement. It is quite another to have loyalty to Daniel Jones.