The last 3 coaches were fired after two years. Daboll is most certainly on thin ice if he has a bad year 3.
And whether it's Daboll's fault or not, Martindale is clearly well liked among the fraternity of coaches, and their run in might be a warning sign. That might be unfair, but it's a big possibility.
What would the reaction be here if Schoen was picking Daboll's staff? I'd guess most of BBI would hate it.
A lot of BBI loves Adam Peters, how does he look right now with his coaching search?
This is simple. Ran Carthon is picking the staff for Callahan. Carthon has a prior working relationship with Wilson. The TEN situation is a clean slate. That's most likely all it is.
Doesn't this regime get some time? They had a very good first year and a bad second year. Year 3 will be crucial, but the Giants need to get out of this cycle of firing coaches. I've come around to this as well. I thought based on the candidates available they should look into anything at first, but that would be another 2 year reset. And then what happens when the next regime goes 6-11? Well just fire them because they are entering a lame duck anyway? The Giants need to end the cycle of overhauling staffs so soon.
Daboll has some adversity, but let's see him respond.
Babich decided not to move his family, relearn the names of an entire team of players, adjust to working with a new head coach etc...
Wilson picked a GM he worked with for years over one that he worked with a couple of years in Philly (Brown) who is likely going to a new team as GM next year.
I would have made the same decision if I were both guys.
I would have liked both, but lets not act like these were the only two defensive coordinators available in the entire NFL. I'd still like to see Henderson get the job or possibly a scenario where he's passing game coordinator and Patterson is run game coordinator.
that coaching doesnt matter until you have actual talent on the field?
We have no QB
An oft injured-disgruntled RB
Nothing but JAGs at WR
An oft injured TE
One good OL surrounded by an island of misfit toys.
One edge rusher with nothing on the other side.
Inexperienced CBs where one at least showed promise.
Poor special teams
And probably another 10-12 areas where we are below league average.
The heat shouldnt be on Daboll or even Mara (to the dismay of the vocals here). The problem started with Reese, it was magnified to nth degree with Gettelman, and Schoen is off to a bad start.
WE CANT IDENTIFY TALENT!!!!!
Coaches generally go where they have prior relationships
And while the Giants don't exactly deserve any benefits of the doubt here, sometimes coaches and players decide there are better places for them to be.
That doesn't mean Daboll or anybody else wearing blue is necessarily toxic or the franchise has no hope. But it also doesn't mean there aren't better landing places in the NFL.
RE: i have to wonder if daboll/schoen being on a hot seaat without a qb
And while the Giants don't exactly deserve any benefits of the doubt here, sometimes coaches and players decide there are better places for them to be.
That doesn't mean Daboll or anybody else wearing blue is necessarily toxic or the franchise has no hope. But it also doesn't mean there aren't better landing places in the NFL.
This is where I'm at. Once I learned that Carthon and Wilson were together before AND Carthon is picking the staff, it's easy to connect the dots.
They liked Babich in Buffalo, but he got promoted. Why would he leave his existing team to start fresh someone else. A team which has clear SB aspirations. Where are all these guys that are rejecting Daboll?
that coaching doesnt matter until you have actual talent on the field?
We have no QB
An oft injured-disgruntled RB
Nothing but JAGs at WR
An oft injured TE
One good OL surrounded by an island of misfit toys.
One edge rusher with nothing on the other side.
Inexperienced CBs where one at least showed promise.
Poor special teams
And probably another 10-12 areas where we are below league average.
The heat shouldnt be on Daboll or even Mara (to the dismay of the vocals here). The problem started with Reese, it was magnified to nth degree with Gettelman, and Schoen is off to a bad start.
WE CANT IDENTIFY TALENT!!!!!
From your list, I would conclude the Giants must have finished 3-14 last season, but no, they actually won 6 games.
But sure, go ahead and panic.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I’m not sure why people are so dismissive of everything
That's your interpretation, really, that they're striking out? There were people warning well before this that we do not know that Wilson is their top guy. Clearly, many choose to ignore this. And the guy came in for two interviews and would appear to have come down to Giants and one other team against multiple suiters --that would hardly appear as striking out, especially with a guy we don't even know was their top candidate. It's not even like Wilson is a proven play caller.
And it would be foolish to dismiss Henderson. The guy makes the world of sense for this team.
Did you read the full post or just the words “striking out”?
I read the full post, but it was the word striking out which I disagreed with. Rest was fine.
to think that a lot of this stuff is not positive for Daboll.
God forbid we ever have continuity, right? We were supposedly finally drafting players to the strengths of our coordinators except that now one of them is gone and the other might make a lateral move.
It’s not great and I don’t think ALL of it can be explained away as nothing to see here because Wink is a jerk.
But I agree, let’s see how Daboll responds because he’s clearly going to get this season. The challenges are piling up for him though, possibly new coordinators throughout, but at least 2 new ones and a mess at QB.
What would the reaction be here if Schoen was picking Daboll's staff? I'd guess most of BBI would hate it.
A lot of BBI loves Adam Peters, how does he look right now with his coaching search?
This is simple. Ran Carthon is picking the staff for Callahan. Carthon has a prior working relationship with Wilson. The TEN situation is a clean slate. That's most likely all it is.
Doesn't this regime get some time? They had a very good first year and a bad second year. Year 3 will be crucial, but the Giants need to get out of this cycle of firing coaches. I've come around to this as well. I thought based on the candidates available they should look into anything at first, but that would be another 2 year reset. And then what happens when the next regime goes 6-11? Well just fire them because they are entering a lame duck anyway? The Giants need to end the cycle of overhauling staffs so soon.
Daboll has some adversity, but let's see him respond.
People need to get off ideas of resets and the like per se - not every situation is the same. Daboll and Schoen came into a cap mess and actually labored this team into playoffs (with some luck). This year was an utter disaster to even win six games. Daboll is getting a Year 3 and we'll see how that goes. I'm expecting lessons learned. Right now, the pressure is on this regime to show a real plan, other than "make it work with Dave's guys".
If they go through this offseason and we have Jones and Barkley again, they're completely in trouble whether its January 2025 or 2026 where we are changing regimes, and in that scenario I'm not entirely sure Schoen survives himself.
Rule of thumb used to be a GM gets 2 HCs in their pot unless the roster is a total disaster. But thats been turned on it's head in the Not For Long leage.
RE: Coaches generally go where they have prior relationships
My guess is hiring coaches is like any other competitive recruiting environment. There are probably a number of 'if all things are equal, then' factors.
These guys are human, if the money is roughly the same, and the prestige of the job is roughly the same -- then I'm sure things like convenience, familiarity, and stability come into play.
If your a team like the Giants bidding for guys from other teams, the stability factor has got to come in okay, no?
I will completely bail on this regime if they don't draft a QB withing the first two rounds of the draft. They have three selections in the top 50 - one of those needs to be a QB. Anything less and then I'll lose faith in this regime to blatantly neglect the QB position.
Again, the smoke you are seeing is most likely all coming from two coaches who are desperately trying to salvage their reputations. Use your head.
or not. While there are no doubt exaggerations from the smoke, no objective person should be swallowing the party line whole hog no matter how hard Stapleton is working to sell it. Daboll and Schoen may be the people "desperately trying to salvage their reputations" this season.
I will completely bail on this regime if they don't draft a QB withing the first two rounds of the draft. They have three selections in the top 50 - one of those needs to be a QB. Anything less and then I'll lose faith in this regime to blatantly neglect the QB position.
How so many people have sat in front of a computer and convinced themselves on so many details they have no understanding of.
--Wilson is NYGs top target. You were warned not to assume this. It was your choice to ignore.
--If Wilson goes anywhere besides NYG it HAS to be because Daboll is hard to work with. And there's no other reason why he might chose. This logic is embarrassingly flawed.
--Henderson is nothing more than a plan B. There are so many reasons in favor of this guy, but hey --people in front of a computer know what they know, right?
--The KC guy is not still in play. Okay, this one I will give you, based on JS's remarks about being decided by end of week, but if that's the case I don't understand how he was every really a candidate even though has been reported he is/was.
Uber, I disagree with the third point. If Henderson was their top choice, why has he not been named the DC already?
Because there is a suggestion that there is a "top choice" before the process is completed. Or that there is 100% agreement internally. In other words, it is possible to have two leading candidates in a process that ultimately concludes on Wilson. Is that the case? Maybe, maybe not. If Wilson demands having full control of the defense and Daboll philosophically believes in a complimentary approach, for example, that could be a sticky point. Changing defensive alignments is another example. There are a million reasons why candidates and team might need to go through a process of coming to alignment that would influence the final decision. It's not a matter of looking at a guy's resume and saying this guy's unit ranked high so I like him best.
Speculation that this came down to NYG not getting their guy because of Daboll's personality is a massive jump in logic.
Again, the smoke you are seeing is most likely all coming from two coaches who are desperately trying to salvage their reputations. Use your head.
or not. While there are no doubt exaggerations from the smoke, no objective person should be swallowing the party line whole hog no matter how hard Stapleton is working to sell it. Daboll and Schoen may be the people "desperately trying to salvage their reputations" this season.
The again, how many interviews has Wink received across the league since his departure....one? two?
The Baltimore defense improved dramatically since his departure. Often times, that is enough evidence to prove the previous coach and/or scheme was not good enough.
Wink is likely to be unemployed this coming season...or working as an "advisor," no longer a DC. The League watched and saw with their own eyes and is giving you the feedback by their actions.
to describe that last 10+ years as anything but dis-functional (personally I would call it a lot worse things). Eeeking out a playoff spot every so often shouldn't be confused with developing a sustainable model for success - evaluating talent, drafting, signing your own players or other players to contracts that make sense, having a plan to maintain success going forward.
I could understand why players or coaches would think twice about coming here and we have to overpay at times. Hopefully JS is fixing those things that he can.
that coaching doesnt matter until you have actual talent on the field?
We have no QB
An oft injured-disgruntled RB
Nothing but JAGs at WR
An oft injured TE
One good OL surrounded by an island of misfit toys.
One edge rusher with nothing on the other side.
Inexperienced CBs where one at least showed promise.
Poor special teams
And probably another 10-12 areas where we are below league average.
The heat shouldnt be on Daboll or even Mara (to the dismay of the vocals here). The problem started with Reese, it was magnified to nth degree with Gettelman, and Schoen is off to a bad start.
WE CANT IDENTIFY TALENT!!!!!
From your list, I would conclude the Giants must have finished 3-14 last season, but no, they actually won 6 games.
But sure, go ahead and panic.
Oh yeah we were a serious contender this year. I mean 4 of our wins were against teams picking ahead of us in the draft. Those were big time wins. It may prevent us from finding a good QB.
Team is LOADED with talent.
I think Coach Daboll and the Giants will have a good season in 2024.
Getting rid of Martindale and his mutinous friends will help bring the team together, instead of pitting defence against offence in the locker room.
Maybe I'm a fool, but I still like Daboll.
There is a significant portion of the NYG fanbase that refuses to admit that their team is in the situation that it is in. Thus, they have to find scapegoats. "The problem isn't really the franchise. It's X." (Right now, X has become Daboll because they Giants were 6-11 and Wink told the press it was so).
At this point, it's gonna be a long 2024 season. Hopefully, Daboll can find a DC he can collaborate with, and on offense he might just take it over/call the plays himself if he's gonna do it anyway - lots of other coaches do it. The longer it goes on though, the longer it would look to be a coach on one of the SB teams.
The Lions won 3 games in 2021. The Texans won 3 games in 2022. If you find the right QB and hit on a few draft picks and FA, things turn around fast in this league.
The QB play has been below average since 2017. Let's start there.
The Lions won 3 games in 2021. The Texans won 3 games in 2022. If you find the right QB and hit on a few draft picks and FA, things turn around fast in this league.
The QB play has been below average since 2017. Let's start there.
Who right now on offense can start for the 49ers at their respective positions?
You don’t want to hear about a lack of talent cause it goes against your narrative. What your suggesting is exactly what we need - FIND TALENT
I don't think Schoen or Daboll have been great so far
But we cannot keep changing those positions every few years. We need to give them 4-5 years to see if they can get it done.
Hopefully they learn from their mistakes and are not so hard headed to admit when a mistake was made. the worse thing they can do is double down on a mistake.
The Lions won 3 games in 2021. The Texans won 3 games in 2022. If you find the right QB and hit on a few draft picks and FA, things turn around fast in this league.
The QB play has been below average since 2017. Let's start there.
Yeah, there is talent, especially on the defensive side.
but not enough that he's getting flooded with interview requests
That's not my point at all.
I'm saying the perception among rank and file coaches *might* be Martindale got a raw deal. And that *could* be a factor for a coach who has options.
For the candidates who aren't close to Daboll, watching a head coach fire the DC's staff and then dare him to quit at the minimum isn't a positive.
It is clear that the Wilkins were identified by Schoen and Daboll as substandard. They were let go as was Bobby Johnson, a friend of Dabolls. The Giants did not fire Martindale. He fired himself. It proves that Martindale was loyal to his people above that of the team. I will not disagree that it was a calculated move to have Martindale leave without having to pay him. But clearly the OLBs were not doing their jobs as perceived by the GM and HC and were worthy of dismissal.
Coaches are let go all the time. Part of the gig. The coaching community knows this. Next man up.
RE: I think Coach Daboll and the Giants will have a good season in 2024.
Getting rid of Martindale and his mutinous friends will help bring the team together, instead of pitting defence against offence in the locker room.
Maybe I'm a fool, but I still like Daboll.
Defense was pit against offense because the offense stunk.
He was my first choice too. No, I wasn't in on the interview process but his success improving the units he coached wherever he goes is not in argument. Hoping at this point that Daly is our new DC. Henderson is a very likeable character and has been in the league a long time, but I don't want a continuation of our low ranked Defense trotted out again. I'm hoping for a new scheme that restores our defensive stature and I thought fresh blood was needed to that.
I will completely bail on this regime if they don't draft a QB withing the first two rounds of the draft. They have three selections in the top 50 - one of those needs to be a QB. Anything less and then I'll lose faith in this regime to blatantly neglect the QB position.
Its a big moment for Schoen.
Free agency starts March 13th. The draft ends April 27th.
In that 45-day stretch, Schoen will have to turn over his cards on his new plan for the QB position.
I mention the free agency period because Schoen could simply sign a vet QB (TT, Huntley, Lock, Mariota, etc) to play the role of placeholder until Jones is cleared. And at that point, we know Schoen has doubled down on Jones.
Or he goes big in the draft.
Whatever the case, March 13th is really when the clock starts.
Possibly more evidence that dicking around with Jones
I'm not saying I WANT Daboll fired after 2024. I'm saying there's a good chance he WILL be.
That's the distinction that has been difficult for a lot of fans these past few years: separating what they want from reality.
No, I fully appreciate what you said. And I disagreed saying it MAY happen vs you saying it is likely.
I will say it again - I see little chance of him getting fired unless he goes full Joe Judge meltdown, or they go 2-15(or similar) with dessention in the ranks.
My point was that where the deficencies are, needs to be identified and corrected. There were 12 years of decay as you well know. Deep seated as you point out. I totally agree. Where we differ is I believe it is not a simple fix. Schoen started with revamping the scouting department. Bringing outside FO personnel (Brown and Cowden) with different POVs. He obviously self scouted over the break identifying failure in the oline coaching and OLB coaching.
I know you want this revamping to be over and quickly. I just do not see it happening quickly. Deep seated rot is hard to remove. The GM and HC need to be on the same page so that players and coaches can be identified to fulfill the vision(gosh I hate these cliches).
We agree that they are in a deep shithole. I think Schoen rolls with Daboll as long as the continuity between the two is bearing fruit.
You have consistently pointed out teams needing a long view to provide stability. Unless Daboll goes postal(or Joe Judgian), he will be with the Giants. (IMHO)
RE: Some of you guys live in a fucking fantasy world
Daboll is the first of the last four Giant head coaches to make it past his second season. He's coming off a 6-11 season. Stories abound about his being tough to work with. He has lost two coordinators (one in a messy way) and may lose the third. He's entering 2024 with guaranteed QB uncertainty.
If you're a defensive coordinator candidate and you see those factors, are you going to hitch your wagon to that or to the guy that just got hired in Tennessee by the GM who's just been given the keys to the car?
I don't hate the Giants. I'm pissed that are poorly run and suck as a result. I can remember what it's like to watch the Giants when they are good, and I miss it. I care about that. Why don't you?
Well put. I don't always agree with you - I tend to be more optimistic - but you are not wrong to say it and hope for better. Wilson made a reasonable choice.
In the end we as fans know very little about what really goes on. I believe in letting the folks do their jobs - they are not trying to screw up. I assume they are making the best choices until the results say otherwise. The results have been bad for a while.
Understanding that Wink does seem like an asshole, there are usually 2 sides to every story and do we really think it’s ALL made up? Especially when there are some things you can read about Daboll prior to his time here.
What if Kafka makes a lateral move?
Sorry to cherry pick one comment but I see the flames of this toxic Daboll narrative being stoked by mentions of the Daboll/Colt McCoy articles from their time in Cleveland.
After reading what’s available out there to us average fans, I have no problems with anything Daboll did. Tough coaching to prepare a young man for the most difficult position in sport. Nothing more.
Have we interviewed him? There have been suggestions that we have, but with no first round bye and being in the SB, I'm not sure when. Also, we have JSs comment about having DC by end of the week. That would seem to rule him out, unless I'm missing something.
I don't think Daboll is being rejected or is toxic BUT
if you have multiple potential landing spots with similar money but one of those landing spots has a potentially shaky coaching regime, THAT would steer you away for sure.
Have we interviewed him? There have been suggestions that we have, but with no first round bye and being in the SB, I'm not sure when. Also, we have JSs comment about having DC by end of the week. That would seem to rule him out, unless I'm missing something.
Yes you are missing something..
Quote:
If the employer team has a bye in the wild-card round, virtual interviews may begin three days after Week 18 games (Jan. 9 or 10, whichever is applicable) and must happen before the end of wild-card games.
Raven had a BYE... so Wilson was allowed to interview
Quote:
If the employer team is participating in the wild-card round, virtual interviews may begin three days after the team’s wild-card game and must happen before the end of the divisional-round games on Jan. 21
Yes they interviewed Daly. Because KC didnt have a first round bye as per league rules he couldnt be interviewed until later... ie He was only able to be interviewed AFTER Wilson..
Wilson was also able to conduct a SECOND interview before Daly because now that Daly in in the Super Bowl, he cant be contacted, interviewed or have any contract discussions until AFTER the Super Bowl...
Its possible they could have seen Wilson and Daly as equal candidates... Notice that they interviewed Daly AFTER Wilson.. and they havent interviewed anyone else since.... and maybe their HOPE was to have someone in place at the DC position by the end of the week...
Now about Daly...
has worked defense under Belichick.
has worked defense under Spags
(we know Giants org loves and respects both these guys)
has worked with Daball in the past. Might have worked with Andre Patterson on the Vikings (now sure if they overlapped)
As a linebackers coach for the past two years, Daly has coached a group of underrated linebackers to help anchor a defensive unit that finished second in the NFL for both points allowed and yards allowed. Prior to that he worked with the KC Defensive Line.
He has coached on 5 Superbowl Winning defenses
IMO he has as solid a resume ( if not more so, to some degree ) than Wilson who everyone is crying over.
There is a significant portion of the NYG fanbase that refuses to admit that their team is in the situation that it is in. Thus, they have to find scapegoats. "The problem isn't really the franchise. It's X." (Right now, X has become Daboll because they Giants were 6-11 and Wink told the press it was so).
How do you define fanbase? If you read all the narratives on BBI it is easy to become negative on the franchise. Opinions are strictly opinions. The gloom and doomers exist in everyday life. I don’t need posters to sell me on their expert opinions. I am interested in facts about the team.
RE: RE: RE: There's a good chance Daboll is gone after 2024
If course you'd go somewhere where the head coach just got hired.
Why is there a good chance Daboll is gone after 2024? There might be a chance as ther is with any coach. I just think it is crazy to think like that.
He pulled a rabbit out of his hat in 2022. Ton of injuries and bad performance in 2023 that necessitated removing STC and DC because of lack of progress developing players.
No, I think he has two more years. Schoen isn't giving up that easily, unless he is just a beast and out of control with personnel.
Sorry to be so outspoken on this thread, this just happens to be a subject I am passionate about.
But, if the Goants have a year like 2023 where they are pretty much out of it by Halloween, can you really justify giving Daboll another year? Im not necessarily opposed to it, but we would be laughable 2 years in a row and likely not sniffing any good assistants coming over once again. Even if we are able to get out from Jones, if the line sucks ass again, the defense is middl8ng or worse, whats next? You trust Daboll another year to turn things around when 4 fifths of your O line were drafted in the 3rd round or higher, you have no QB, no identity as an offense, and a defense that has like 4/5 good players on it?
Yes I know there is an offseason and a lot can happen, but if Dabes runs yhis shit show back again and people still say hes a divk, you pretty much have to can him and start over. Again.
The ball bounced the right way in 2022, Giants won nine games, made the playoffs, Daboll gets high praise for some aggressive coaching decisions, wins a playoff game against a 13-win team, and is coach of the year.
The ball bounces the wrong way last year, we lose two games in excruciating fashion (Bills, Jets) are close in a couple others, the QB goes down, the backup goes down, injuries cripple an already shaky O-line, and Giants win six games. The Wink drama unfolds, Daboll goes from Da-Balls! to an out-of-control tyrant according some sources (Wink, Wink) and both he and Schoen are on the hot seat, again according to whom?
IIrc, when Schoen and Daboll were hired, the consensus was the rebuild process would take a few years and progress wouldn't be linear, a.k.a, ups and downs. Some of Daboll's decisions have been rightly questioned. Some of Schoen's decisions have been rightly questioned. Maybe Daboll needs to adjust his demeanor around the building. But from all the evidence I see, the players never stopped playing for him, never quit, and, apparently were not caught up in the Wink stuff.
Bottom line, I don't think Schoen or Daboll have to win next season, and btw, what does "win" in 2024 mean? Winning record, playoffs, NFC, SB? And also, btw, Martindale and his two brotherly acolytes are still out of work.
I also think the conventional wisdom about coaches not wanting to come here is greatly exaggerated. It is still the NY Giants, a premier franchise in the premier sports market in the world. I see some Coughlin/Daboll paralells as well. Coughlin, aka, Col. Tom, was portrayed as somewhat of an inflexible martinet and a yeller. He made some adjustments. How did that work out?
Have we interviewed him? There have been suggestions that we have, but with no first round bye and being in the SB, I'm not sure when. Also, we have JSs comment about having DC by end of the week. That would seem to rule him out, unless I'm missing something.
Daly was interviewed once, that we know of.
Someone said the Schoen said he hoped to have it resolved by the end of the week....
There is a significant portion of the NYG fanbase that refuses to admit that their team is in the situation that it is in. Thus, they have to find scapegoats. "The problem isn't really the franchise. It's X." (Right now, X has become Daboll because they Giants were 6-11 and Wink told the press it was so).
How do you define fanbase? If you read all the narratives on BBI it is easy to become negative on the franchise. Opinions are strictly opinions. The gloom and doomers exist in everyday life. I don’t need posters to sell me on their expert opinions. I am interested in facts about the team.
I've given you the facts. It isn't doom and gloom.
RE: RE: RE: RE: There's a good chance Daboll is gone after 2024
If course you'd go somewhere where the head coach just got hired.
Why is there a good chance Daboll is gone after 2024? There might be a chance as ther is with any coach. I just think it is crazy to think like that.
He pulled a rabbit out of his hat in 2022. Ton of injuries and bad performance in 2023 that necessitated removing STC and DC because of lack of progress developing players.
No, I think he has two more years. Schoen isn't giving up that easily, unless he is just a beast and out of control with personnel.
It's simple. GT hates this organization and roots for its demise. This isn't news. He is smarter than a 4x Super Bowl winning organization and you can't convince him otherwise. He's the Joker, he just wants to see the world burn. That's his shtick, accept it and move on. He's not a bad dude but you have to understand the angle and you clearly don't.
I'm not sure I've ever seen him say anything good about the Giants in the 20+ years I've been on this board
And whether it's Daboll's fault or not, Martindale is clearly well liked among the fraternity of coaches, and their run in might be a warning sign. That might be unfair, but it's a big possibility.
A lot of BBI loves Adam Peters, how does he look right now with his coaching search?
This is simple. Ran Carthon is picking the staff for Callahan. Carthon has a prior working relationship with Wilson. The TEN situation is a clean slate. That's most likely all it is.
Doesn't this regime get some time? They had a very good first year and a bad second year. Year 3 will be crucial, but the Giants need to get out of this cycle of firing coaches. I've come around to this as well. I thought based on the candidates available they should look into anything at first, but that would be another 2 year reset. And then what happens when the next regime goes 6-11? Well just fire them because they are entering a lame duck anyway? The Giants need to end the cycle of overhauling staffs so soon.
Daboll has some adversity, but let's see him respond.
That's not my point at all.
I'm saying the perception among rank and file coaches *might* be Martindale got a raw deal. And that *could* be a factor for a coach who has options.
For the candidates who aren't close to Daboll, watching a head coach fire the DC's staff and then dare him to quit at the minimum isn't a positive.
Wilson picked a GM he worked with for years over one that he worked with a couple of years in Philly (Brown) who is likely going to a new team as GM next year.
I would have made the same decision if I were both guys.
I would have liked both, but lets not act like these were the only two defensive coordinators available in the entire NFL. I'd still like to see Henderson get the job or possibly a scenario where he's passing game coordinator and Patterson is run game coordinator.
We have no QB
An oft injured-disgruntled RB
Nothing but JAGs at WR
An oft injured TE
One good OL surrounded by an island of misfit toys.
One edge rusher with nothing on the other side.
Inexperienced CBs where one at least showed promise.
Poor special teams
And probably another 10-12 areas where we are below league average.
The heat shouldnt be on Daboll or even Mara (to the dismay of the vocals here). The problem started with Reese, it was magnified to nth degree with Gettelman, and Schoen is off to a bad start.
WE CANT IDENTIFY TALENT!!!!!
That doesn't mean Daboll or anybody else wearing blue is necessarily toxic or the franchise has no hope. But it also doesn't mean there aren't better landing places in the NFL.
1 year job.
TEN with new HC/GM has at least 3 years of runway with Levis.
That doesn't mean Daboll or anybody else wearing blue is necessarily toxic or the franchise has no hope. But it also doesn't mean there aren't better landing places in the NFL.
This is where I'm at. Once I learned that Carthon and Wilson were together before AND Carthon is picking the staff, it's easy to connect the dots.
They liked Babich in Buffalo, but he got promoted. Why would he leave his existing team to start fresh someone else. A team which has clear SB aspirations. Where are all these guys that are rejecting Daboll?
We have no QB
An oft injured-disgruntled RB
Nothing but JAGs at WR
An oft injured TE
One good OL surrounded by an island of misfit toys.
One edge rusher with nothing on the other side.
Inexperienced CBs where one at least showed promise.
Poor special teams
And probably another 10-12 areas where we are below league average.
The heat shouldnt be on Daboll or even Mara (to the dismay of the vocals here). The problem started with Reese, it was magnified to nth degree with Gettelman, and Schoen is off to a bad start.
WE CANT IDENTIFY TALENT!!!!!
From your list, I would conclude the Giants must have finished 3-14 last season, but no, they actually won 6 games.
But sure, go ahead and panic.
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That's your interpretation, really, that they're striking out? There were people warning well before this that we do not know that Wilson is their top guy. Clearly, many choose to ignore this. And the guy came in for two interviews and would appear to have come down to Giants and one other team against multiple suiters --that would hardly appear as striking out, especially with a guy we don't even know was their top candidate. It's not even like Wilson is a proven play caller.
And it would be foolish to dismiss Henderson. The guy makes the world of sense for this team.
Did you read the full post or just the words “striking out”?
God forbid we ever have continuity, right? We were supposedly finally drafting players to the strengths of our coordinators except that now one of them is gone and the other might make a lateral move.
It’s not great and I don’t think ALL of it can be explained away as nothing to see here because Wink is a jerk.
But I agree, let’s see how Daboll responds because he’s clearly going to get this season. The challenges are piling up for him though, possibly new coordinators throughout, but at least 2 new ones and a mess at QB.
A lot of BBI loves Adam Peters, how does he look right now with his coaching search?
This is simple. Ran Carthon is picking the staff for Callahan. Carthon has a prior working relationship with Wilson. The TEN situation is a clean slate. That's most likely all it is.
Doesn't this regime get some time? They had a very good first year and a bad second year. Year 3 will be crucial, but the Giants need to get out of this cycle of firing coaches. I've come around to this as well. I thought based on the candidates available they should look into anything at first, but that would be another 2 year reset. And then what happens when the next regime goes 6-11? Well just fire them because they are entering a lame duck anyway? The Giants need to end the cycle of overhauling staffs so soon.
Daboll has some adversity, but let's see him respond.
People need to get off ideas of resets and the like per se - not every situation is the same. Daboll and Schoen came into a cap mess and actually labored this team into playoffs (with some luck). This year was an utter disaster to even win six games. Daboll is getting a Year 3 and we'll see how that goes. I'm expecting lessons learned. Right now, the pressure is on this regime to show a real plan, other than "make it work with Dave's guys".
If they go through this offseason and we have Jones and Barkley again, they're completely in trouble whether its January 2025 or 2026 where we are changing regimes, and in that scenario I'm not entirely sure Schoen survives himself.
Rule of thumb used to be a GM gets 2 HCs in their pot unless the roster is a total disaster. But thats been turned on it's head in the Not For Long leage.
My guess is hiring coaches is like any other competitive recruiting environment. There are probably a number of 'if all things are equal, then' factors.
These guys are human, if the money is roughly the same, and the prestige of the job is roughly the same -- then I'm sure things like convenience, familiarity, and stability come into play.
If your a team like the Giants bidding for guys from other teams, the stability factor has got to come in okay, no?
Its a big moment for Schoen.
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How so many people have sat in front of a computer and convinced themselves on so many details they have no understanding of.
--Wilson is NYGs top target. You were warned not to assume this. It was your choice to ignore.
--If Wilson goes anywhere besides NYG it HAS to be because Daboll is hard to work with. And there's no other reason why he might chose. This logic is embarrassingly flawed.
--Henderson is nothing more than a plan B. There are so many reasons in favor of this guy, but hey --people in front of a computer know what they know, right?
--The KC guy is not still in play. Okay, this one I will give you, based on JS's remarks about being decided by end of week, but if that's the case I don't understand how he was every really a candidate even though has been reported he is/was.
Uber, I disagree with the third point. If Henderson was their top choice, why has he not been named the DC already?
Speculation that this came down to NYG not getting their guy because of Daboll's personality is a massive jump in logic.
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Again, the smoke you are seeing is most likely all coming from two coaches who are desperately trying to salvage their reputations. Use your head.
or not. While there are no doubt exaggerations from the smoke, no objective person should be swallowing the party line whole hog no matter how hard Stapleton is working to sell it. Daboll and Schoen may be the people "desperately trying to salvage their reputations" this season.
The again, how many interviews has Wink received across the league since his departure....one? two?
The Baltimore defense improved dramatically since his departure. Often times, that is enough evidence to prove the previous coach and/or scheme was not good enough.
Wink is likely to be unemployed this coming season...or working as an "advisor," no longer a DC. The League watched and saw with their own eyes and is giving you the feedback by their actions.
I could understand why players or coaches would think twice about coming here and we have to overpay at times. Hopefully JS is fixing those things that he can.
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that coaching doesnt matter until you have actual talent on the field?
We have no QB
An oft injured-disgruntled RB
Nothing but JAGs at WR
An oft injured TE
One good OL surrounded by an island of misfit toys.
One edge rusher with nothing on the other side.
Inexperienced CBs where one at least showed promise.
Poor special teams
And probably another 10-12 areas where we are below league average.
The heat shouldnt be on Daboll or even Mara (to the dismay of the vocals here). The problem started with Reese, it was magnified to nth degree with Gettelman, and Schoen is off to a bad start.
WE CANT IDENTIFY TALENT!!!!!
From your list, I would conclude the Giants must have finished 3-14 last season, but no, they actually won 6 games.
But sure, go ahead and panic.
Oh yeah we were a serious contender this year. I mean 4 of our wins were against teams picking ahead of us in the draft. Those were big time wins. It may prevent us from finding a good QB.
Team is LOADED with talent.
Maybe I'm a fool, but I still like Daboll.
There is a significant portion of the NYG fanbase that refuses to admit that their team is in the situation that it is in. Thus, they have to find scapegoats. "The problem isn't really the franchise. It's X." (Right now, X has become Daboll because they Giants were 6-11 and Wink told the press it was so).
The QB play has been below average since 2017. Let's start there.
The QB play has been below average since 2017. Let's start there.
Who right now on offense can start for the 49ers at their respective positions?
You don’t want to hear about a lack of talent cause it goes against your narrative. What your suggesting is exactly what we need - FIND TALENT
But we cannot keep changing those positions every few years. We need to give them 4-5 years to see if they can get it done.
Hopefully they learn from their mistakes and are not so hard headed to admit when a mistake was made. the worse thing they can do is double down on a mistake.
The QB play has been below average since 2017. Let's start there.
I'm not saying I WANT Daboll fired after 2024. I'm saying there's a good chance he WILL be.
That's the distinction that has been difficult for a lot of fans these past few years: separating what they want from reality.
Thomas
Dex
Thibs
Okereke
Banks
That’s extremely sad.
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but not enough that he's getting flooded with interview requests
That's not my point at all.
I'm saying the perception among rank and file coaches *might* be Martindale got a raw deal. And that *could* be a factor for a coach who has options.
For the candidates who aren't close to Daboll, watching a head coach fire the DC's staff and then dare him to quit at the minimum isn't a positive.
It is clear that the Wilkins were identified by Schoen and Daboll as substandard. They were let go as was Bobby Johnson, a friend of Dabolls. The Giants did not fire Martindale. He fired himself. It proves that Martindale was loyal to his people above that of the team. I will not disagree that it was a calculated move to have Martindale leave without having to pay him. But clearly the OLBs were not doing their jobs as perceived by the GM and HC and were worthy of dismissal.
Coaches are let go all the time. Part of the gig. The coaching community knows this. Next man up.
Maybe I'm a fool, but I still like Daboll.
Defense was pit against offense because the offense stunk.
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I will completely bail on this regime if they don't draft a QB withing the first two rounds of the draft. They have three selections in the top 50 - one of those needs to be a QB. Anything less and then I'll lose faith in this regime to blatantly neglect the QB position.
Its a big moment for Schoen.
Free agency starts March 13th. The draft ends April 27th.
In that 45-day stretch, Schoen will have to turn over his cards on his new plan for the QB position.
I mention the free agency period because Schoen could simply sign a vet QB (TT, Huntley, Lock, Mariota, etc) to play the role of placeholder until Jones is cleared. And at that point, we know Schoen has doubled down on Jones.
Or he goes big in the draft.
Whatever the case, March 13th is really when the clock starts.
I'm not saying I WANT Daboll fired after 2024. I'm saying there's a good chance he WILL be.
That's the distinction that has been difficult for a lot of fans these past few years: separating what they want from reality.
No, I fully appreciate what you said. And I disagreed saying it MAY happen vs you saying it is likely.
I will say it again - I see little chance of him getting fired unless he goes full Joe Judge meltdown, or they go 2-15(or similar) with dessention in the ranks.
My point was that where the deficencies are, needs to be identified and corrected. There were 12 years of decay as you well know. Deep seated as you point out. I totally agree. Where we differ is I believe it is not a simple fix. Schoen started with revamping the scouting department. Bringing outside FO personnel (Brown and Cowden) with different POVs. He obviously self scouted over the break identifying failure in the oline coaching and OLB coaching.
I know you want this revamping to be over and quickly. I just do not see it happening quickly. Deep seated rot is hard to remove. The GM and HC need to be on the same page so that players and coaches can be identified to fulfill the vision(gosh I hate these cliches).
We agree that they are in a deep shithole. I think Schoen rolls with Daboll as long as the continuity between the two is bearing fruit.
You have consistently pointed out teams needing a long view to provide stability. Unless Daboll goes postal(or Joe Judgian), he will be with the Giants. (IMHO)
Daboll is the first of the last four Giant head coaches to make it past his second season. He's coming off a 6-11 season. Stories abound about his being tough to work with. He has lost two coordinators (one in a messy way) and may lose the third. He's entering 2024 with guaranteed QB uncertainty.
If you're a defensive coordinator candidate and you see those factors, are you going to hitch your wagon to that or to the guy that just got hired in Tennessee by the GM who's just been given the keys to the car?
I don't hate the Giants. I'm pissed that are poorly run and suck as a result. I can remember what it's like to watch the Giants when they are good, and I miss it. I care about that. Why don't you?
Well put. I don't always agree with you - I tend to be more optimistic - but you are not wrong to say it and hope for better. Wilson made a reasonable choice.
In the end we as fans know very little about what really goes on. I believe in letting the folks do their jobs - they are not trying to screw up. I assume they are making the best choices until the results say otherwise. The results have been bad for a while.
How should we feel about Campanile?
Understanding that Wink does seem like an asshole, there are usually 2 sides to every story and do we really think it’s ALL made up? Especially when there are some things you can read about Daboll prior to his time here.
What if Kafka makes a lateral move?
Sorry to cherry pick one comment but I see the flames of this toxic Daboll narrative being stoked by mentions of the Daboll/Colt McCoy articles from their time in Cleveland.
After reading what’s available out there to us average fans, I have no problems with anything Daboll did. Tough coaching to prepare a young man for the most difficult position in sport. Nothing more.
Yes you are missing something..
Raven had a BYE... so Wilson was allowed to interview
Yes they interviewed Daly. Because KC didnt have a first round bye as per league rules he couldnt be interviewed until later... ie He was only able to be interviewed AFTER Wilson..
Wilson was also able to conduct a SECOND interview before Daly because now that Daly in in the Super Bowl, he cant be contacted, interviewed or have any contract discussions until AFTER the Super Bowl...
Its possible they could have seen Wilson and Daly as equal candidates... Notice that they interviewed Daly AFTER Wilson.. and they havent interviewed anyone else since.... and maybe their HOPE was to have someone in place at the DC position by the end of the week...
Now about Daly...
has worked defense under Belichick.
has worked defense under Spags
(we know Giants org loves and respects both these guys)
has worked with Daball in the past. Might have worked with Andre Patterson on the Vikings (now sure if they overlapped)
As a linebackers coach for the past two years, Daly has coached a group of underrated linebackers to help anchor a defensive unit that finished second in the NFL for both points allowed and yards allowed. Prior to that he worked with the KC Defensive Line.
He has coached on 5 Superbowl Winning defenses
IMO he has as solid a resume ( if not more so, to some degree ) than Wilson who everyone is crying over.
There is a significant portion of the NYG fanbase that refuses to admit that their team is in the situation that it is in. Thus, they have to find scapegoats. "The problem isn't really the franchise. It's X." (Right now, X has become Daboll because they Giants were 6-11 and Wink told the press it was so).
How do you define fanbase? If you read all the narratives on BBI it is easy to become negative on the franchise. Opinions are strictly opinions. The gloom and doomers exist in everyday life. I don’t need posters to sell me on their expert opinions. I am interested in facts about the team.
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In comment 16385017 Go Terps said:
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If course you'd go somewhere where the head coach just got hired.
Why is there a good chance Daboll is gone after 2024? There might be a chance as ther is with any coach. I just think it is crazy to think like that.
He pulled a rabbit out of his hat in 2022. Ton of injuries and bad performance in 2023 that necessitated removing STC and DC because of lack of progress developing players.
No, I think he has two more years. Schoen isn't giving up that easily, unless he is just a beast and out of control with personnel.
Sorry to be so outspoken on this thread, this just happens to be a subject I am passionate about.
But, if the Goants have a year like 2023 where they are pretty much out of it by Halloween, can you really justify giving Daboll another year? Im not necessarily opposed to it, but we would be laughable 2 years in a row and likely not sniffing any good assistants coming over once again. Even if we are able to get out from Jones, if the line sucks ass again, the defense is middl8ng or worse, whats next? You trust Daboll another year to turn things around when 4 fifths of your O line were drafted in the 3rd round or higher, you have no QB, no identity as an offense, and a defense that has like 4/5 good players on it?
Yes I know there is an offseason and a lot can happen, but if Dabes runs yhis shit show back again and people still say hes a divk, you pretty much have to can him and start over. Again.
The ball bounced the right way in 2022, Giants won nine games, made the playoffs, Daboll gets high praise for some aggressive coaching decisions, wins a playoff game against a 13-win team, and is coach of the year.
The ball bounces the wrong way last year, we lose two games in excruciating fashion (Bills, Jets) are close in a couple others, the QB goes down, the backup goes down, injuries cripple an already shaky O-line, and Giants win six games. The Wink drama unfolds, Daboll goes from Da-Balls! to an out-of-control tyrant according some sources (Wink, Wink) and both he and Schoen are on the hot seat, again according to whom?
IIrc, when Schoen and Daboll were hired, the consensus was the rebuild process would take a few years and progress wouldn't be linear, a.k.a, ups and downs. Some of Daboll's decisions have been rightly questioned. Some of Schoen's decisions have been rightly questioned. Maybe Daboll needs to adjust his demeanor around the building. But from all the evidence I see, the players never stopped playing for him, never quit, and, apparently were not caught up in the Wink stuff.
Bottom line, I don't think Schoen or Daboll have to win next season, and btw, what does "win" in 2024 mean? Winning record, playoffs, NFC, SB? And also, btw, Martindale and his two brotherly acolytes are still out of work.
I also think the conventional wisdom about coaches not wanting to come here is greatly exaggerated. It is still the NY Giants, a premier franchise in the premier sports market in the world. I see some Coughlin/Daboll paralells as well. Coughlin, aka, Col. Tom, was portrayed as somewhat of an inflexible martinet and a yeller. He made some adjustments. How did that work out?
Daly was interviewed once, that we know of.
Someone said the Schoen said he hoped to have it resolved by the end of the week....
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is correct.
There is a significant portion of the NYG fanbase that refuses to admit that their team is in the situation that it is in. Thus, they have to find scapegoats. "The problem isn't really the franchise. It's X." (Right now, X has become Daboll because they Giants were 6-11 and Wink told the press it was so).
How do you define fanbase? If you read all the narratives on BBI it is easy to become negative on the franchise. Opinions are strictly opinions. The gloom and doomers exist in everyday life. I don’t need posters to sell me on their expert opinions. I am interested in facts about the team.
I've given you the facts. It isn't doom and gloom.
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In comment 16385043 section125 said:
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In comment 16385017 Go Terps said:
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If course you'd go somewhere where the head coach just got hired.
Why is there a good chance Daboll is gone after 2024? There might be a chance as ther is with any coach. I just think it is crazy to think like that.
He pulled a rabbit out of his hat in 2022. Ton of injuries and bad performance in 2023 that necessitated removing STC and DC because of lack of progress developing players.
No, I think he has two more years. Schoen isn't giving up that easily, unless he is just a beast and out of control with personnel.
It's simple. GT hates this organization and roots for its demise. This isn't news. He is smarter than a 4x Super Bowl winning organization and you can't convince him otherwise. He's the Joker, he just wants to see the world burn. That's his shtick, accept it and move on. He's not a bad dude but you have to understand the angle and you clearly don't.
I'm not sure I've ever seen him say anything good about the Giants in the 20+ years I've been on this board
It’s just incessant.