A tough season with injuries, poor play at the start, and a shitty QB situation due to all of those factors has made people lose their fucking minds.
This after a great season where our new head coach won the award for best coach in the entire NFL. And then his defensive coordinator (that he didn’t want to hire at his first choice) started an in house mutiny and you guys fell for it and are somehow still bringing it up as if it’s some indictment against Daboll when one of the best players on our own defense said he might not return to the Giants if this guy was still around.
2022 was not a great season. It was a good positive season that felt greater because of so much losing five years prior, but the team almost collapsed in second half and needed some fortuitous matchup with teams (Commanders and Colts also collapsing to get in). In end it ended up not being a real directional and sustainable change in fortunes of roster and team.
We have just as many questions as before in 2021. Big offseason for Schoen.
I’m not sure why people are so dismissive of everything
Understanding that Wink does seem like an asshole, there are usually 2 sides to every story and do we really think it’s ALL made up? Especially when there are some things you can read about Daboll prior to his time here.
What if Kafka makes a lateral move?
RE: I’m not sure why people are so dismissive of everything
Understanding that Wink does seem like an asshole, there are usually 2 sides to every story and do we really think it’s ALL made up? Especially when there are some things you can read about Daboll prior to his time here.
What if Kafka makes a lateral move?
Because some people think the Giants can’t do any wrong.
I don’t think it’s anything to freak out about yet, but it’s mildly concerning they appear to be striking out with defensive coordinators. Let’s see what happens.
in the world for 2022 (other than the MVP candidate DJ) and give him a complete pass for 2023 when he did not have the team ready to start the season. Daboll has to be on thin ice in 2024 and can't have a repeat of this year if he wants to stick around. And fwiw I have found GT to be one of the best posters on this board even if he refuses to stick his head in the sand and pretend everything is great.
RE: RE: I’m not sure why people are so dismissive of everything
Understanding that Wink does seem like an asshole, there are usually 2 sides to every story and do we really think it’s ALL made up? Especially when there are some things you can read about Daboll prior to his time here.
What if Kafka makes a lateral move?
Because some people think the Giants can’t do any wrong.
I don’t think it’s anything to freak out about yet, but it’s mildly concerning they appear to be striking out with defensive coordinators. Let’s see what happens.
That's your interpretation, really, that they're striking out? There were people warning well before this that we do not know that Wilson is their top guy. Clearly, many choose to ignore this. And the guy came in for two interviews and would appear to have come down to Giants and one other team against multiple suiters --that would hardly appear as striking out, especially with a guy we don't even know was their top candidate. It's not even like Wilson is a proven play caller.
And it would be foolish to dismiss Henderson. The guy makes the world of sense for this team.
Again, the smoke you are seeing is most likely all coming from two coaches who are desperately trying to salvage their reputations. Use your head.
Hopefully you are right. However, Wildon I believe is the only one offered a 2nd interview. I have heard nothing about Henderson being one of the favorites to get the job. If Henderson winds up the DC, I am sorry, but it more than likely will be from default.
Again I hope Im wrong, but as someone else said, Schoen said he hoped this 2ould be done by the end of this week. Common sense would tell you that the guy who got a 2nd interview was likely the choice, not a guy they havent interviewed yet. Using my head, I got the indication Schoen thought Wilson would take the job.
It's pretty clear that Henderson is not the first choice.
But that doesn't mean coaches are picking other spots because of Daboll.
It means the NYG job isn't as attractive as others. Half the fan base wants the Giants to start over again. Why would a DC want to enter that picture?
There is a significant portion of the NYG fanbase that refuses to admit that their team is in the situation that it is in. Thus, they have to find scapegoats. "The problem isn't really the franchise. It's X." (Right now, X has become Daboll because they Giants were 6-11 and Wink told the press it was so).
How so many people have sat in front of a computer and convinced themselves on so many details they have no understanding of.
--Wilson is NYGs top target. You were warned not to assume this. It was your choice to ignore.
--If Wilson goes anywhere besides NYG it HAS to be because Daboll is hard to work with. And there's no other reason why he might chose. This logic is embarrassingly flawed.
--Henderson is nothing more than a plan B. There are so many reasons in favor of this guy, but hey --people in front of a computer know what they know, right?
--The KC guy is not still in play. Okay, this one I will give you, based on JS's remarks about being decided by end of week, but if that's the case I don't understand how he was every really a candidate even though has been reported he is/was.
RE: RE: RE: I’m not sure why people are so dismissive of everything
That's your interpretation, really, that they're striking out? There were people warning well before this that we do not know that Wilson is their top guy. Clearly, many choose to ignore this. And the guy came in for two interviews and would appear to have come down to Giants and one other team against multiple suiters --that would hardly appear as striking out, especially with a guy we don't even know was their top candidate. It's not even like Wilson is a proven play caller.
And it would be foolish to dismiss Henderson. The guy makes the world of sense for this team.
Did you read the full post or just the words “striking out”?
How so many people have sat in front of a computer and convinced themselves on so many details they have no understanding of.
--Wilson is NYGs top target. You were warned not to assume this. It was your choice to ignore.
--If Wilson goes anywhere besides NYG it HAS to be because Daboll is hard to work with. And there's no other reason why he might chose. This logic is embarrassingly flawed.
--Henderson is nothing more than a plan B. There are so many reasons in favor of this guy, but hey --people in front of a computer know what they know, right?
--The KC guy is not still in play. Okay, this one I will give you, based on JS's remarks about being decided by end of week, but if that's the case I don't understand how he was every really a candidate even though has been reported he is/was.
Uber, I disagree with the third point. If Henderson was their top choice, why has he not been named the DC already?
Why hasn’t he been hired and why are doing multiple interviews with candidates?
If they are striking out like it appears they are, I don’t think it’s because of the Daboll/Wink thing. I think it has more to do with a lot of people around the league seeing Daboll as a lame duck if they aren’t able to get a QB in the draft.
Not many people in the league want to take what could be a one year job that banks on the prospect of Daniel Jones.
RE: Some of you guys live in a fucking fantasy world
Daboll is the first of the last four Giant head coaches to make it past his second season. He's coming off a 6-11 season. Stories abound about his being tough to work with. He has lost two coordinators (one in a messy way) and may lose the third. He's entering 2024 with guaranteed QB uncertainty.
If you're a defensive coordinator candidate and you see those factors, are you going to hitch your wagon to that or to the guy that just got hired in Tennessee by the GM who's just been given the keys to the car?
I don't hate the Giants. I'm pissed that are poorly run and suck as a result. I can remember what it's like to watch the Giants when they are good, and I miss it. I care about that. Why don't you?
No, I do not live in a fantasy world. No team snaps its' fingers and transforms overnight. But it does not do any team any good to keep changing FOs and HCs like you want. How do you ever get a cohesive organization with panic moves that you suggest and even point out. How do you weed out the weak links if you are not there long enough to identify who/what they are.
We all know the Giants have a severe talent shortage. That is not changing overnight. The fact that Daboll was able to get to the playoffs and win a game with a team that was even less talented than the one now, is proof Daboll can coach. Do I think he is at McVay's or Shanahan's level - no. McVay's job this year was stunning.
But this is what I do know, despite an awful start the team actually played for him down the stretch. You point out he got rid of the DC and STC. Well everyone had been calling for McGaughey's head for two years. It is also quite clear that the DC was unable to improve the defenses' performance depsite being the recipient of the bulk of the major roster signings. The run defense was still putrid. A'Shawn and Nacho were brought in to help get Leo and Dex off the field for a breather. Those are two good backup DTs by any measure. Didn't help a thing. OLBs did not improve much if any. Okereke was a stellar signing and still didn't help. While I loved Wink's style of attack, the defense still couldn't get off the field on 3rd downs, backing DBs so far off the line of scrimmage they could not possibly pressure the WRs. Frankly, I think the Giants defense had sufficient good players to be a mid pack(statwise) unit.
Wink proved to be a prima donna and frankly after the Jets game, his ass should have been sat down. You hold a team to virtually nothing for 59 minutes and 32 seconds and then allow them to move 50 yards with no time outs and 27 seconds because you played a two man front?
So when the HC and GM identify the problem, should they not be allowed to correct it. The oline failed to develop a single player; the OLB coaches failed to develop the ERs. Those coaches were given time to develop some talented players and failed. Shouldn't they be dismissed?
Bill Parcells was a prick. Bill Belichick is a prick and there are plenty of others. So I don't want to hear that Daboll is hard to work for. And he is not perfect. But the players did play for him.
I totally agree on the QB situation. Watching fragile Tyrod Taylor move the ball behind a dogshit line, even misfiring passes to wide open players, showed what the offense could with a quick witted QB. I am not a fan of Kafka's in game play calling, but he can design good plays.
Yes, re-signing Jones to a not so insignificant contract was a mistake. And that is on Daboll and Schoen. I do not know what they were thinking or what they saw to go down that road. Schoen and Daboll are not stupid - so I agree headscratcher.
In summary, there needs to be an allowable learning curve. There will be failures along the way. What happened before Daboll and Schoen is not relevant to them. They are a separate entity from previous "regimes". We as fans bring up 12 years of collective failure through Accorsi, Reese, DG, TC, McAdoo, Shurmur and Judge as a single block. Yet each was a seperate entity that collectively brought us to where this team is now (and yes the owners). There is no doubt that the talent level dwindled under those regimes. It is now Schoen's job the rebuild it. And the level was so low that it will take several offseasons to correct. Does this team have better players on the roster than it had two years ago? It does. Is it sufficient? Not even close but improving. So, do they now change regimes because Go Terps is not satisfied with the speed of improvement? That is what you are inferring and that is fantasy.
I do not wish to go through what Schoen has done internally from scouting changes and dismissals, to new FO staff from outside the org and assignment changes within.
So no, I do not live in a fantasy world, but on occassion you do. NFL is not Madden.
The last 3 coaches were fired after two years. Daboll is most certainly on thin ice if he has a bad year 3.
And whether it's Daboll's fault or not, Martindale is clearly well liked among the fraternity of coaches, and their run in might be a warning sign. That might be unfair, but it's a big possibility.
What would the reaction be here if Schoen was picking Daboll's staff? I'd guess most of BBI would hate it.
A lot of BBI loves Adam Peters, how does he look right now with his coaching search?
This is simple. Ran Carthon is picking the staff for Callahan. Carthon has a prior working relationship with Wilson. The TEN situation is a clean slate. That's most likely all it is.
Doesn't this regime get some time? They had a very good first year and a bad second year. Year 3 will be crucial, but the Giants need to get out of this cycle of firing coaches. I've come around to this as well. I thought based on the candidates available they should look into anything at first, but that would be another 2 year reset. And then what happens when the next regime goes 6-11? Well just fire them because they are entering a lame duck anyway? The Giants need to end the cycle of overhauling staffs so soon.
Daboll has some adversity, but let's see him respond.
Babich decided not to move his family, relearn the names of an entire team of players, adjust to working with a new head coach etc...
Wilson picked a GM he worked with for years over one that he worked with a couple of years in Philly (Brown) who is likely going to a new team as GM next year.
I would have made the same decision if I were both guys.
I would have liked both, but lets not act like these were the only two defensive coordinators available in the entire NFL. I'd still like to see Henderson get the job or possibly a scenario where he's passing game coordinator and Patterson is run game coordinator.
that coaching doesnt matter until you have actual talent on the field?
We have no QB
An oft injured-disgruntled RB
Nothing but JAGs at WR
An oft injured TE
One good OL surrounded by an island of misfit toys.
One edge rusher with nothing on the other side.
Inexperienced CBs where one at least showed promise.
Poor special teams
And probably another 10-12 areas where we are below league average.
The heat shouldnt be on Daboll or even Mara (to the dismay of the vocals here). The problem started with Reese, it was magnified to nth degree with Gettelman, and Schoen is off to a bad start.
WE CANT IDENTIFY TALENT!!!!!
Coaches generally go where they have prior relationships
And while the Giants don't exactly deserve any benefits of the doubt here, sometimes coaches and players decide there are better places for them to be.
That doesn't mean Daboll or anybody else wearing blue is necessarily toxic or the franchise has no hope. But it also doesn't mean there aren't better landing places in the NFL.
RE: i have to wonder if daboll/schoen being on a hot seaat without a qb
And while the Giants don't exactly deserve any benefits of the doubt here, sometimes coaches and players decide there are better places for them to be.
That doesn't mean Daboll or anybody else wearing blue is necessarily toxic or the franchise has no hope. But it also doesn't mean there aren't better landing places in the NFL.
This is where I'm at. Once I learned that Carthon and Wilson were together before AND Carthon is picking the staff, it's easy to connect the dots.
They liked Babich in Buffalo, but he got promoted. Why would he leave his existing team to start fresh someone else. A team which has clear SB aspirations. Where are all these guys that are rejecting Daboll?
that coaching doesnt matter until you have actual talent on the field?
We have no QB
An oft injured-disgruntled RB
Nothing but JAGs at WR
An oft injured TE
One good OL surrounded by an island of misfit toys.
One edge rusher with nothing on the other side.
Inexperienced CBs where one at least showed promise.
Poor special teams
And probably another 10-12 areas where we are below league average.
The heat shouldnt be on Daboll or even Mara (to the dismay of the vocals here). The problem started with Reese, it was magnified to nth degree with Gettelman, and Schoen is off to a bad start.
WE CANT IDENTIFY TALENT!!!!!
From your list, I would conclude the Giants must have finished 3-14 last season, but no, they actually won 6 games.
But sure, go ahead and panic.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I’m not sure why people are so dismissive of everything
That's your interpretation, really, that they're striking out? There were people warning well before this that we do not know that Wilson is their top guy. Clearly, many choose to ignore this. And the guy came in for two interviews and would appear to have come down to Giants and one other team against multiple suiters --that would hardly appear as striking out, especially with a guy we don't even know was their top candidate. It's not even like Wilson is a proven play caller.
And it would be foolish to dismiss Henderson. The guy makes the world of sense for this team.
Did you read the full post or just the words “striking out”?
I read the full post, but it was the word striking out which I disagreed with. Rest was fine.
to think that a lot of this stuff is not positive for Daboll.
God forbid we ever have continuity, right? We were supposedly finally drafting players to the strengths of our coordinators except that now one of them is gone and the other might make a lateral move.
It’s not great and I don’t think ALL of it can be explained away as nothing to see here because Wink is a jerk.
But I agree, let’s see how Daboll responds because he’s clearly going to get this season. The challenges are piling up for him though, possibly new coordinators throughout, but at least 2 new ones and a mess at QB.
What would the reaction be here if Schoen was picking Daboll's staff? I'd guess most of BBI would hate it.
A lot of BBI loves Adam Peters, how does he look right now with his coaching search?
This is simple. Ran Carthon is picking the staff for Callahan. Carthon has a prior working relationship with Wilson. The TEN situation is a clean slate. That's most likely all it is.
Doesn't this regime get some time? They had a very good first year and a bad second year. Year 3 will be crucial, but the Giants need to get out of this cycle of firing coaches. I've come around to this as well. I thought based on the candidates available they should look into anything at first, but that would be another 2 year reset. And then what happens when the next regime goes 6-11? Well just fire them because they are entering a lame duck anyway? The Giants need to end the cycle of overhauling staffs so soon.
Daboll has some adversity, but let's see him respond.
People need to get off ideas of resets and the like per se - not every situation is the same. Daboll and Schoen came into a cap mess and actually labored this team into playoffs (with some luck). This year was an utter disaster to even win six games. Daboll is getting a Year 3 and we'll see how that goes. I'm expecting lessons learned. Right now, the pressure is on this regime to show a real plan, other than "make it work with Dave's guys".
If they go through this offseason and we have Jones and Barkley again, they're completely in trouble whether its January 2025 or 2026 where we are changing regimes, and in that scenario I'm not entirely sure Schoen survives himself.
Rule of thumb used to be a GM gets 2 HCs in their pot unless the roster is a total disaster. But thats been turned on it's head in the Not For Long leage.
RE: Coaches generally go where they have prior relationships
My guess is hiring coaches is like any other competitive recruiting environment. There are probably a number of 'if all things are equal, then' factors.
These guys are human, if the money is roughly the same, and the prestige of the job is roughly the same -- then I'm sure things like convenience, familiarity, and stability come into play.
If your a team like the Giants bidding for guys from other teams, the stability factor has got to come in okay, no?
I will completely bail on this regime if they don't draft a QB withing the first two rounds of the draft. They have three selections in the top 50 - one of those needs to be a QB. Anything less and then I'll lose faith in this regime to blatantly neglect the QB position.
Again, the smoke you are seeing is most likely all coming from two coaches who are desperately trying to salvage their reputations. Use your head.
or not. While there are no doubt exaggerations from the smoke, no objective person should be swallowing the party line whole hog no matter how hard Stapleton is working to sell it. Daboll and Schoen may be the people "desperately trying to salvage their reputations" this season.
I will completely bail on this regime if they don't draft a QB withing the first two rounds of the draft. They have three selections in the top 50 - one of those needs to be a QB. Anything less and then I'll lose faith in this regime to blatantly neglect the QB position.
How so many people have sat in front of a computer and convinced themselves on so many details they have no understanding of.
--Wilson is NYGs top target. You were warned not to assume this. It was your choice to ignore.
--If Wilson goes anywhere besides NYG it HAS to be because Daboll is hard to work with. And there's no other reason why he might chose. This logic is embarrassingly flawed.
--Henderson is nothing more than a plan B. There are so many reasons in favor of this guy, but hey --people in front of a computer know what they know, right?
--The KC guy is not still in play. Okay, this one I will give you, based on JS's remarks about being decided by end of week, but if that's the case I don't understand how he was every really a candidate even though has been reported he is/was.
Uber, I disagree with the third point. If Henderson was their top choice, why has he not been named the DC already?
Because there is a suggestion that there is a "top choice" before the process is completed. Or that there is 100% agreement internally. In other words, it is possible to have two leading candidates in a process that ultimately concludes on Wilson. Is that the case? Maybe, maybe not. If Wilson demands having full control of the defense and Daboll philosophically believes in a complimentary approach, for example, that could be a sticky point. Changing defensive alignments is another example. There are a million reasons why candidates and team might need to go through a process of coming to alignment that would influence the final decision. It's not a matter of looking at a guy's resume and saying this guy's unit ranked high so I like him best.
Speculation that this came down to NYG not getting their guy because of Daboll's personality is a massive jump in logic.
Again, the smoke you are seeing is most likely all coming from two coaches who are desperately trying to salvage their reputations. Use your head.
or not. While there are no doubt exaggerations from the smoke, no objective person should be swallowing the party line whole hog no matter how hard Stapleton is working to sell it. Daboll and Schoen may be the people "desperately trying to salvage their reputations" this season.
The again, how many interviews has Wink received across the league since his departure....one? two?
The Baltimore defense improved dramatically since his departure. Often times, that is enough evidence to prove the previous coach and/or scheme was not good enough.
Wink is likely to be unemployed this coming season...or working as an "advisor," no longer a DC. The League watched and saw with their own eyes and is giving you the feedback by their actions.
to describe that last 10+ years as anything but dis-functional (personally I would call it a lot worse things). Eeeking out a playoff spot every so often shouldn't be confused with developing a sustainable model for success - evaluating talent, drafting, signing your own players or other players to contracts that make sense, having a plan to maintain success going forward.
I could understand why players or coaches would think twice about coming here and we have to overpay at times. Hopefully JS is fixing those things that he can.
that coaching doesnt matter until you have actual talent on the field?
We have no QB
An oft injured-disgruntled RB
Nothing but JAGs at WR
An oft injured TE
One good OL surrounded by an island of misfit toys.
One edge rusher with nothing on the other side.
Inexperienced CBs where one at least showed promise.
Poor special teams
And probably another 10-12 areas where we are below league average.
The heat shouldnt be on Daboll or even Mara (to the dismay of the vocals here). The problem started with Reese, it was magnified to nth degree with Gettelman, and Schoen is off to a bad start.
WE CANT IDENTIFY TALENT!!!!!
From your list, I would conclude the Giants must have finished 3-14 last season, but no, they actually won 6 games.
But sure, go ahead and panic.
Oh yeah we were a serious contender this year. I mean 4 of our wins were against teams picking ahead of us in the draft. Those were big time wins. It may prevent us from finding a good QB.
Team is LOADED with talent.
I think Coach Daboll and the Giants will have a good season in 2024.
Getting rid of Martindale and his mutinous friends will help bring the team together, instead of pitting defence against offence in the locker room.
Maybe I'm a fool, but I still like Daboll.
There is a significant portion of the NYG fanbase that refuses to admit that their team is in the situation that it is in. Thus, they have to find scapegoats. "The problem isn't really the franchise. It's X." (Right now, X has become Daboll because they Giants were 6-11 and Wink told the press it was so).
At this point, it's gonna be a long 2024 season. Hopefully, Daboll can find a DC he can collaborate with, and on offense he might just take it over/call the plays himself if he's gonna do it anyway - lots of other coaches do it. The longer it goes on though, the longer it would look to be a coach on one of the SB teams.
The Lions won 3 games in 2021. The Texans won 3 games in 2022. If you find the right QB and hit on a few draft picks and FA, things turn around fast in this league.
The QB play has been below average since 2017. Let's start there.
The Lions won 3 games in 2021. The Texans won 3 games in 2022. If you find the right QB and hit on a few draft picks and FA, things turn around fast in this league.
The QB play has been below average since 2017. Let's start there.
Who right now on offense can start for the 49ers at their respective positions?
You don’t want to hear about a lack of talent cause it goes against your narrative. What your suggesting is exactly what we need - FIND TALENT
I don't think Schoen or Daboll have been great so far
But we cannot keep changing those positions every few years. We need to give them 4-5 years to see if they can get it done.
Hopefully they learn from their mistakes and are not so hard headed to admit when a mistake was made. the worse thing they can do is double down on a mistake.
The Lions won 3 games in 2021. The Texans won 3 games in 2022. If you find the right QB and hit on a few draft picks and FA, things turn around fast in this league.
The QB play has been below average since 2017. Let's start there.
Yeah, there is talent, especially on the defensive side.
but not enough that he's getting flooded with interview requests
That's not my point at all.
I'm saying the perception among rank and file coaches *might* be Martindale got a raw deal. And that *could* be a factor for a coach who has options.
For the candidates who aren't close to Daboll, watching a head coach fire the DC's staff and then dare him to quit at the minimum isn't a positive.
It is clear that the Wilkins were identified by Schoen and Daboll as substandard. They were let go as was Bobby Johnson, a friend of Dabolls. The Giants did not fire Martindale. He fired himself. It proves that Martindale was loyal to his people above that of the team. I will not disagree that it was a calculated move to have Martindale leave without having to pay him. But clearly the OLBs were not doing their jobs as perceived by the GM and HC and were worthy of dismissal.
Coaches are let go all the time. Part of the gig. The coaching community knows this. Next man up.
RE: I think Coach Daboll and the Giants will have a good season in 2024.
Getting rid of Martindale and his mutinous friends will help bring the team together, instead of pitting defence against offence in the locker room.
Maybe I'm a fool, but I still like Daboll.
Defense was pit against offense because the offense stunk.
He was my first choice too. No, I wasn't in on the interview process but his success improving the units he coached wherever he goes is not in argument. Hoping at this point that Daly is our new DC. Henderson is a very likeable character and has been in the league a long time, but I don't want a continuation of our low ranked Defense trotted out again. I'm hoping for a new scheme that restores our defensive stature and I thought fresh blood was needed to that.
I will completely bail on this regime if they don't draft a QB withing the first two rounds of the draft. They have three selections in the top 50 - one of those needs to be a QB. Anything less and then I'll lose faith in this regime to blatantly neglect the QB position.
Its a big moment for Schoen.
Free agency starts March 13th. The draft ends April 27th.
In that 45-day stretch, Schoen will have to turn over his cards on his new plan for the QB position.
I mention the free agency period because Schoen could simply sign a vet QB (TT, Huntley, Lock, Mariota, etc) to play the role of placeholder until Jones is cleared. And at that point, we know Schoen has doubled down on Jones.
Or he goes big in the draft.
Whatever the case, March 13th is really when the clock starts.
Possibly more evidence that dicking around with Jones
I'm not saying I WANT Daboll fired after 2024. I'm saying there's a good chance he WILL be.
That's the distinction that has been difficult for a lot of fans these past few years: separating what they want from reality.
No, I fully appreciate what you said. And I disagreed saying it MAY happen vs you saying it is likely.
I will say it again - I see little chance of him getting fired unless he goes full Joe Judge meltdown, or they go 2-15(or similar) with dessention in the ranks.
My point was that where the deficencies are, needs to be identified and corrected. There were 12 years of decay as you well know. Deep seated as you point out. I totally agree. Where we differ is I believe it is not a simple fix. Schoen started with revamping the scouting department. Bringing outside FO personnel (Brown and Cowden) with different POVs. He obviously self scouted over the break identifying failure in the oline coaching and OLB coaching.
I know you want this revamping to be over and quickly. I just do not see it happening quickly. Deep seated rot is hard to remove. The GM and HC need to be on the same page so that players and coaches can be identified to fulfill the vision(gosh I hate these cliches).
We agree that they are in a deep shithole. I think Schoen rolls with Daboll as long as the continuity between the two is bearing fruit.
You have consistently pointed out teams needing a long view to provide stability. Unless Daboll goes postal(or Joe Judgian), he will be with the Giants. (IMHO)
This after a great season where our new head coach won the award for best coach in the entire NFL. And then his defensive coordinator (that he didn’t want to hire at his first choice) started an in house mutiny and you guys fell for it and are somehow still bringing it up as if it’s some indictment against Daboll when one of the best players on our own defense said he might not return to the Giants if this guy was still around.
2022 was not a great season. It was a good positive season that felt greater because of so much losing five years prior, but the team almost collapsed in second half and needed some fortuitous matchup with teams (Commanders and Colts also collapsing to get in). In end it ended up not being a real directional and sustainable change in fortunes of roster and team.
We have just as many questions as before in 2021. Big offseason for Schoen.
Understanding that Wink does seem like an asshole, there are usually 2 sides to every story and do we really think it’s ALL made up? Especially when there are some things you can read about Daboll prior to his time here.
What if Kafka makes a lateral move?
Understanding that Wink does seem like an asshole, there are usually 2 sides to every story and do we really think it’s ALL made up? Especially when there are some things you can read about Daboll prior to his time here.
What if Kafka makes a lateral move?
Because some people think the Giants can’t do any wrong.
I don’t think it’s anything to freak out about yet, but it’s mildly concerning they appear to be striking out with defensive coordinators. Let’s see what happens.
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surrounding Daboll this offseason.
Understanding that Wink does seem like an asshole, there are usually 2 sides to every story and do we really think it’s ALL made up? Especially when there are some things you can read about Daboll prior to his time here.
What if Kafka makes a lateral move?
Because some people think the Giants can’t do any wrong.
I don’t think it’s anything to freak out about yet, but it’s mildly concerning they appear to be striking out with defensive coordinators. Let’s see what happens.
And it would be foolish to dismiss Henderson. The guy makes the world of sense for this team.
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Again, the smoke you are seeing is most likely all coming from two coaches who are desperately trying to salvage their reputations. Use your head.
Hopefully you are right. However, Wildon I believe is the only one offered a 2nd interview. I have heard nothing about Henderson being one of the favorites to get the job. If Henderson winds up the DC, I am sorry, but it more than likely will be from default.
Again I hope Im wrong, but as someone else said, Schoen said he hoped this 2ould be done by the end of this week. Common sense would tell you that the guy who got a 2nd interview was likely the choice, not a guy they havent interviewed yet. Using my head, I got the indication Schoen thought Wilson would take the job.
It's pretty clear that Henderson is not the first choice.
But that doesn't mean coaches are picking other spots because of Daboll.
It means the NYG job isn't as attractive as others. Half the fan base wants the Giants to start over again. Why would a DC want to enter that picture?
There is a significant portion of the NYG fanbase that refuses to admit that their team is in the situation that it is in. Thus, they have to find scapegoats. "The problem isn't really the franchise. It's X." (Right now, X has become Daboll because they Giants were 6-11 and Wink told the press it was so).
--Wilson is NYGs top target. You were warned not to assume this. It was your choice to ignore.
--If Wilson goes anywhere besides NYG it HAS to be because Daboll is hard to work with. And there's no other reason why he might chose. This logic is embarrassingly flawed.
--Henderson is nothing more than a plan B. There are so many reasons in favor of this guy, but hey --people in front of a computer know what they know, right?
--The KC guy is not still in play. Okay, this one I will give you, based on JS's remarks about being decided by end of week, but if that's the case I don't understand how he was every really a candidate even though has been reported he is/was.
That's your interpretation, really, that they're striking out? There were people warning well before this that we do not know that Wilson is their top guy. Clearly, many choose to ignore this. And the guy came in for two interviews and would appear to have come down to Giants and one other team against multiple suiters --that would hardly appear as striking out, especially with a guy we don't even know was their top candidate. It's not even like Wilson is a proven play caller.
And it would be foolish to dismiss Henderson. The guy makes the world of sense for this team.
Did you read the full post or just the words “striking out”?
--Wilson is NYGs top target. You were warned not to assume this. It was your choice to ignore.
--If Wilson goes anywhere besides NYG it HAS to be because Daboll is hard to work with. And there's no other reason why he might chose. This logic is embarrassingly flawed.
--Henderson is nothing more than a plan B. There are so many reasons in favor of this guy, but hey --people in front of a computer know what they know, right?
--The KC guy is not still in play. Okay, this one I will give you, based on JS's remarks about being decided by end of week, but if that's the case I don't understand how he was every really a candidate even though has been reported he is/was.
Uber, I disagree with the third point. If Henderson was their top choice, why has he not been named the DC already?
If they are striking out like it appears they are, I don’t think it’s because of the Daboll/Wink thing. I think it has more to do with a lot of people around the league seeing Daboll as a lame duck if they aren’t able to get a QB in the draft.
Not many people in the league want to take what could be a one year job that banks on the prospect of Daniel Jones.
Daboll is the first of the last four Giant head coaches to make it past his second season. He's coming off a 6-11 season. Stories abound about his being tough to work with. He has lost two coordinators (one in a messy way) and may lose the third. He's entering 2024 with guaranteed QB uncertainty.
If you're a defensive coordinator candidate and you see those factors, are you going to hitch your wagon to that or to the guy that just got hired in Tennessee by the GM who's just been given the keys to the car?
I don't hate the Giants. I'm pissed that are poorly run and suck as a result. I can remember what it's like to watch the Giants when they are good, and I miss it. I care about that. Why don't you?
No, I do not live in a fantasy world. No team snaps its' fingers and transforms overnight. But it does not do any team any good to keep changing FOs and HCs like you want. How do you ever get a cohesive organization with panic moves that you suggest and even point out. How do you weed out the weak links if you are not there long enough to identify who/what they are.
We all know the Giants have a severe talent shortage. That is not changing overnight. The fact that Daboll was able to get to the playoffs and win a game with a team that was even less talented than the one now, is proof Daboll can coach. Do I think he is at McVay's or Shanahan's level - no. McVay's job this year was stunning.
But this is what I do know, despite an awful start the team actually played for him down the stretch. You point out he got rid of the DC and STC. Well everyone had been calling for McGaughey's head for two years. It is also quite clear that the DC was unable to improve the defenses' performance depsite being the recipient of the bulk of the major roster signings. The run defense was still putrid. A'Shawn and Nacho were brought in to help get Leo and Dex off the field for a breather. Those are two good backup DTs by any measure. Didn't help a thing. OLBs did not improve much if any. Okereke was a stellar signing and still didn't help. While I loved Wink's style of attack, the defense still couldn't get off the field on 3rd downs, backing DBs so far off the line of scrimmage they could not possibly pressure the WRs. Frankly, I think the Giants defense had sufficient good players to be a mid pack(statwise) unit.
Wink proved to be a prima donna and frankly after the Jets game, his ass should have been sat down. You hold a team to virtually nothing for 59 minutes and 32 seconds and then allow them to move 50 yards with no time outs and 27 seconds because you played a two man front?
So when the HC and GM identify the problem, should they not be allowed to correct it. The oline failed to develop a single player; the OLB coaches failed to develop the ERs. Those coaches were given time to develop some talented players and failed. Shouldn't they be dismissed?
Bill Parcells was a prick. Bill Belichick is a prick and there are plenty of others. So I don't want to hear that Daboll is hard to work for. And he is not perfect. But the players did play for him.
I totally agree on the QB situation. Watching fragile Tyrod Taylor move the ball behind a dogshit line, even misfiring passes to wide open players, showed what the offense could with a quick witted QB. I am not a fan of Kafka's in game play calling, but he can design good plays.
Yes, re-signing Jones to a not so insignificant contract was a mistake. And that is on Daboll and Schoen. I do not know what they were thinking or what they saw to go down that road. Schoen and Daboll are not stupid - so I agree headscratcher.
In summary, there needs to be an allowable learning curve. There will be failures along the way. What happened before Daboll and Schoen is not relevant to them. They are a separate entity from previous "regimes". We as fans bring up 12 years of collective failure through Accorsi, Reese, DG, TC, McAdoo, Shurmur and Judge as a single block. Yet each was a seperate entity that collectively brought us to where this team is now (and yes the owners). There is no doubt that the talent level dwindled under those regimes. It is now Schoen's job the rebuild it. And the level was so low that it will take several offseasons to correct. Does this team have better players on the roster than it had two years ago? It does. Is it sufficient? Not even close but improving. So, do they now change regimes because Go Terps is not satisfied with the speed of improvement? That is what you are inferring and that is fantasy.
I do not wish to go through what Schoen has done internally from scouting changes and dismissals, to new FO staff from outside the org and assignment changes within.
So no, I do not live in a fantasy world, but on occassion you do. NFL is not Madden.
And whether it's Daboll's fault or not, Martindale is clearly well liked among the fraternity of coaches, and their run in might be a warning sign. That might be unfair, but it's a big possibility.
A lot of BBI loves Adam Peters, how does he look right now with his coaching search?
This is simple. Ran Carthon is picking the staff for Callahan. Carthon has a prior working relationship with Wilson. The TEN situation is a clean slate. That's most likely all it is.
Doesn't this regime get some time? They had a very good first year and a bad second year. Year 3 will be crucial, but the Giants need to get out of this cycle of firing coaches. I've come around to this as well. I thought based on the candidates available they should look into anything at first, but that would be another 2 year reset. And then what happens when the next regime goes 6-11? Well just fire them because they are entering a lame duck anyway? The Giants need to end the cycle of overhauling staffs so soon.
Daboll has some adversity, but let's see him respond.
That's not my point at all.
I'm saying the perception among rank and file coaches *might* be Martindale got a raw deal. And that *could* be a factor for a coach who has options.
For the candidates who aren't close to Daboll, watching a head coach fire the DC's staff and then dare him to quit at the minimum isn't a positive.
Wilson picked a GM he worked with for years over one that he worked with a couple of years in Philly (Brown) who is likely going to a new team as GM next year.
I would have made the same decision if I were both guys.
I would have liked both, but lets not act like these were the only two defensive coordinators available in the entire NFL. I'd still like to see Henderson get the job or possibly a scenario where he's passing game coordinator and Patterson is run game coordinator.
We have no QB
An oft injured-disgruntled RB
Nothing but JAGs at WR
An oft injured TE
One good OL surrounded by an island of misfit toys.
One edge rusher with nothing on the other side.
Inexperienced CBs where one at least showed promise.
Poor special teams
And probably another 10-12 areas where we are below league average.
The heat shouldnt be on Daboll or even Mara (to the dismay of the vocals here). The problem started with Reese, it was magnified to nth degree with Gettelman, and Schoen is off to a bad start.
WE CANT IDENTIFY TALENT!!!!!
That doesn't mean Daboll or anybody else wearing blue is necessarily toxic or the franchise has no hope. But it also doesn't mean there aren't better landing places in the NFL.
1 year job.
TEN with new HC/GM has at least 3 years of runway with Levis.
That doesn't mean Daboll or anybody else wearing blue is necessarily toxic or the franchise has no hope. But it also doesn't mean there aren't better landing places in the NFL.
This is where I'm at. Once I learned that Carthon and Wilson were together before AND Carthon is picking the staff, it's easy to connect the dots.
They liked Babich in Buffalo, but he got promoted. Why would he leave his existing team to start fresh someone else. A team which has clear SB aspirations. Where are all these guys that are rejecting Daboll?
We have no QB
An oft injured-disgruntled RB
Nothing but JAGs at WR
An oft injured TE
One good OL surrounded by an island of misfit toys.
One edge rusher with nothing on the other side.
Inexperienced CBs where one at least showed promise.
Poor special teams
And probably another 10-12 areas where we are below league average.
The heat shouldnt be on Daboll or even Mara (to the dismay of the vocals here). The problem started with Reese, it was magnified to nth degree with Gettelman, and Schoen is off to a bad start.
WE CANT IDENTIFY TALENT!!!!!
From your list, I would conclude the Giants must have finished 3-14 last season, but no, they actually won 6 games.
But sure, go ahead and panic.
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That's your interpretation, really, that they're striking out? There were people warning well before this that we do not know that Wilson is their top guy. Clearly, many choose to ignore this. And the guy came in for two interviews and would appear to have come down to Giants and one other team against multiple suiters --that would hardly appear as striking out, especially with a guy we don't even know was their top candidate. It's not even like Wilson is a proven play caller.
And it would be foolish to dismiss Henderson. The guy makes the world of sense for this team.
Did you read the full post or just the words “striking out”?
God forbid we ever have continuity, right? We were supposedly finally drafting players to the strengths of our coordinators except that now one of them is gone and the other might make a lateral move.
It’s not great and I don’t think ALL of it can be explained away as nothing to see here because Wink is a jerk.
But I agree, let’s see how Daboll responds because he’s clearly going to get this season. The challenges are piling up for him though, possibly new coordinators throughout, but at least 2 new ones and a mess at QB.
A lot of BBI loves Adam Peters, how does he look right now with his coaching search?
This is simple. Ran Carthon is picking the staff for Callahan. Carthon has a prior working relationship with Wilson. The TEN situation is a clean slate. That's most likely all it is.
Doesn't this regime get some time? They had a very good first year and a bad second year. Year 3 will be crucial, but the Giants need to get out of this cycle of firing coaches. I've come around to this as well. I thought based on the candidates available they should look into anything at first, but that would be another 2 year reset. And then what happens when the next regime goes 6-11? Well just fire them because they are entering a lame duck anyway? The Giants need to end the cycle of overhauling staffs so soon.
Daboll has some adversity, but let's see him respond.
People need to get off ideas of resets and the like per se - not every situation is the same. Daboll and Schoen came into a cap mess and actually labored this team into playoffs (with some luck). This year was an utter disaster to even win six games. Daboll is getting a Year 3 and we'll see how that goes. I'm expecting lessons learned. Right now, the pressure is on this regime to show a real plan, other than "make it work with Dave's guys".
If they go through this offseason and we have Jones and Barkley again, they're completely in trouble whether its January 2025 or 2026 where we are changing regimes, and in that scenario I'm not entirely sure Schoen survives himself.
Rule of thumb used to be a GM gets 2 HCs in their pot unless the roster is a total disaster. But thats been turned on it's head in the Not For Long leage.
My guess is hiring coaches is like any other competitive recruiting environment. There are probably a number of 'if all things are equal, then' factors.
These guys are human, if the money is roughly the same, and the prestige of the job is roughly the same -- then I'm sure things like convenience, familiarity, and stability come into play.
If your a team like the Giants bidding for guys from other teams, the stability factor has got to come in okay, no?
Its a big moment for Schoen.
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How so many people have sat in front of a computer and convinced themselves on so many details they have no understanding of.
--Wilson is NYGs top target. You were warned not to assume this. It was your choice to ignore.
--If Wilson goes anywhere besides NYG it HAS to be because Daboll is hard to work with. And there's no other reason why he might chose. This logic is embarrassingly flawed.
--Henderson is nothing more than a plan B. There are so many reasons in favor of this guy, but hey --people in front of a computer know what they know, right?
--The KC guy is not still in play. Okay, this one I will give you, based on JS's remarks about being decided by end of week, but if that's the case I don't understand how he was every really a candidate even though has been reported he is/was.
Uber, I disagree with the third point. If Henderson was their top choice, why has he not been named the DC already?
Speculation that this came down to NYG not getting their guy because of Daboll's personality is a massive jump in logic.
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Again, the smoke you are seeing is most likely all coming from two coaches who are desperately trying to salvage their reputations. Use your head.
or not. While there are no doubt exaggerations from the smoke, no objective person should be swallowing the party line whole hog no matter how hard Stapleton is working to sell it. Daboll and Schoen may be the people "desperately trying to salvage their reputations" this season.
The again, how many interviews has Wink received across the league since his departure....one? two?
The Baltimore defense improved dramatically since his departure. Often times, that is enough evidence to prove the previous coach and/or scheme was not good enough.
Wink is likely to be unemployed this coming season...or working as an "advisor," no longer a DC. The League watched and saw with their own eyes and is giving you the feedback by their actions.
I could understand why players or coaches would think twice about coming here and we have to overpay at times. Hopefully JS is fixing those things that he can.
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that coaching doesnt matter until you have actual talent on the field?
We have no QB
An oft injured-disgruntled RB
Nothing but JAGs at WR
An oft injured TE
One good OL surrounded by an island of misfit toys.
One edge rusher with nothing on the other side.
Inexperienced CBs where one at least showed promise.
Poor special teams
And probably another 10-12 areas where we are below league average.
The heat shouldnt be on Daboll or even Mara (to the dismay of the vocals here). The problem started with Reese, it was magnified to nth degree with Gettelman, and Schoen is off to a bad start.
WE CANT IDENTIFY TALENT!!!!!
From your list, I would conclude the Giants must have finished 3-14 last season, but no, they actually won 6 games.
But sure, go ahead and panic.
Oh yeah we were a serious contender this year. I mean 4 of our wins were against teams picking ahead of us in the draft. Those were big time wins. It may prevent us from finding a good QB.
Team is LOADED with talent.
Maybe I'm a fool, but I still like Daboll.
There is a significant portion of the NYG fanbase that refuses to admit that their team is in the situation that it is in. Thus, they have to find scapegoats. "The problem isn't really the franchise. It's X." (Right now, X has become Daboll because they Giants were 6-11 and Wink told the press it was so).
The QB play has been below average since 2017. Let's start there.
The QB play has been below average since 2017. Let's start there.
Who right now on offense can start for the 49ers at their respective positions?
You don’t want to hear about a lack of talent cause it goes against your narrative. What your suggesting is exactly what we need - FIND TALENT
But we cannot keep changing those positions every few years. We need to give them 4-5 years to see if they can get it done.
Hopefully they learn from their mistakes and are not so hard headed to admit when a mistake was made. the worse thing they can do is double down on a mistake.
The QB play has been below average since 2017. Let's start there.
I'm not saying I WANT Daboll fired after 2024. I'm saying there's a good chance he WILL be.
That's the distinction that has been difficult for a lot of fans these past few years: separating what they want from reality.
Thomas
Dex
Thibs
Okereke
Banks
That’s extremely sad.
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but not enough that he's getting flooded with interview requests
That's not my point at all.
I'm saying the perception among rank and file coaches *might* be Martindale got a raw deal. And that *could* be a factor for a coach who has options.
For the candidates who aren't close to Daboll, watching a head coach fire the DC's staff and then dare him to quit at the minimum isn't a positive.
It is clear that the Wilkins were identified by Schoen and Daboll as substandard. They were let go as was Bobby Johnson, a friend of Dabolls. The Giants did not fire Martindale. He fired himself. It proves that Martindale was loyal to his people above that of the team. I will not disagree that it was a calculated move to have Martindale leave without having to pay him. But clearly the OLBs were not doing their jobs as perceived by the GM and HC and were worthy of dismissal.
Coaches are let go all the time. Part of the gig. The coaching community knows this. Next man up.
Maybe I'm a fool, but I still like Daboll.
Defense was pit against offense because the offense stunk.
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I will completely bail on this regime if they don't draft a QB withing the first two rounds of the draft. They have three selections in the top 50 - one of those needs to be a QB. Anything less and then I'll lose faith in this regime to blatantly neglect the QB position.
Its a big moment for Schoen.
Free agency starts March 13th. The draft ends April 27th.
In that 45-day stretch, Schoen will have to turn over his cards on his new plan for the QB position.
I mention the free agency period because Schoen could simply sign a vet QB (TT, Huntley, Lock, Mariota, etc) to play the role of placeholder until Jones is cleared. And at that point, we know Schoen has doubled down on Jones.
Or he goes big in the draft.
Whatever the case, March 13th is really when the clock starts.
I'm not saying I WANT Daboll fired after 2024. I'm saying there's a good chance he WILL be.
That's the distinction that has been difficult for a lot of fans these past few years: separating what they want from reality.
No, I fully appreciate what you said. And I disagreed saying it MAY happen vs you saying it is likely.
I will say it again - I see little chance of him getting fired unless he goes full Joe Judge meltdown, or they go 2-15(or similar) with dessention in the ranks.
My point was that where the deficencies are, needs to be identified and corrected. There were 12 years of decay as you well know. Deep seated as you point out. I totally agree. Where we differ is I believe it is not a simple fix. Schoen started with revamping the scouting department. Bringing outside FO personnel (Brown and Cowden) with different POVs. He obviously self scouted over the break identifying failure in the oline coaching and OLB coaching.
I know you want this revamping to be over and quickly. I just do not see it happening quickly. Deep seated rot is hard to remove. The GM and HC need to be on the same page so that players and coaches can be identified to fulfill the vision(gosh I hate these cliches).
We agree that they are in a deep shithole. I think Schoen rolls with Daboll as long as the continuity between the two is bearing fruit.
You have consistently pointed out teams needing a long view to provide stability. Unless Daboll goes postal(or Joe Judgian), he will be with the Giants. (IMHO)