bowen wasn't on the radars but im glad they ended up with someone who is both younger and has the experience of doing it before on a winning team.
here's his bio from wiki (added my own emphasis to the key paragraph):
Quote:
Houston Texans
In 2016, Bowen began his NFL coaching career with the Houston Texans as a defensive assistant where he reunited with Mike Vrabel, the Texans’ linebackers coach. Bowen served in this position for the 2016 and 2017 seasons. Houston finished the 2016 season with the NFL's top-ranked defense for the first time in franchise history, surrendering an average of only 301.3 total net yards per game. They also gave up the fewest first downs (17.0) and second-fewest net passing yards (201.6) per game.[11] In 2017, Vrabel was promoted to Defensive Coordinator. Under Vrabel's guidance and Bowen's assistance, the Texans ranked fifth in the NFL in third-down defense and set a franchise record for fewest yards per carry by opponents (3.97).
Tennessee Titans
Bowen in 2019
On January 20, 2018, Mike Vrabel was named head coach of the Tennessee Titans. Ten days later, on January 30, Vrabel named Bowen as the team's outside linebacker coach.[12]
Bowen's new role reunited him with Derrick Morgan, a defensive teammate during Bowen's playing career at Georgia Tech. Morgan was drafted in the first round of the 2010 NFL draft by the Titans and played nine years with the Titans as an outside linebacker. Bowen had the honor of serving as Morgan's position coach in 2018, his final season in the NFL since Morgan retired following the season.[13]
In 2018, the Titans' defense ranked eighth overall (333.4 yards per game), third in points allowed (18.9 per game), 10th on third down (36.6 percent), and second in the red zone (44.7 touchdown percentage). Bowen helped two rookies: second-round draft pick Harold Landry and undrafted free agent Sharif Finch combine for six sacks.[9] In 2019, the Titans' defensive backs were again a top-10 unit in passing yards and interceptions.[14] The Titans made the playoffs but lost in the AFC Championship game, just one game away from the Super Bowl.
After the 2019 season, Titans defensive coordinator, Dean Pees, retired. Beginning with the 2020 season, Vrabel assumed many of the duties once held by Pees. However, Vrabel entrusted Bowen with the role of defensive play caller throughout most of the season while the latter served as outside linebackers coach.
On January 29, 2021, Bowen was promoted to defensive coordinator.[15] [16] In 2021, the Titans finished the season with a record of 12-5, won the American Football Conference (AFC) South Division, and earned the AFC’s overall #1 seed going into the playoffs. The defense finished the season among the NFL’s best in multiple categories: #4 in touchdowns per game, #4 in opponent’s red zone scoring, #6 in 3rd down conversion rate, and #6 in points per game.
the guy could fall on his face like bettcher did but i have no idea how that wouldnt be just as likely if not more likely with anyone who hadnt been a DC before.
The New York Giants are hiring Shane Bowen as their next defensive coordinator, league sources told The Athletic on Monday. Bowen spent the past three seasons in the same role for the Tennessee Titans, who fired head coach Mike Vrabel in January.
"In 2021, the Titans finished the season with a record of 12-5, won the American Football Conference (AFC) South Division, and earned the AFC’s overall #1 seed going into the playoffs. The defense finished the season among the NFL’s best in multiple categories: #4 in touchdowns per game, #4 in opponent’s red zone scoring, #6 in 3rd down conversion rate, and #6 in points per game."
I’m shocked this is where they wound up going. Nothing against him or the resume, there were just a lot of interviews after him that lead me to believe there wasn’t that much interest.
On the bright side, this is actually one of the more proven candidates we interviewed and probably second to only Fraizer in that matter. He’s supposed to specialize in EDGE rushers, we have one good one to work with and need bodies outside of that, so hopefully he can work some magic.
I’m shocked this is where they wound up going. Nothing against him or the resume, there were just a lot of interviews after him that lead me to believe there wasn’t that much interest.
On the bright side, this is actually one of the more proven candidates we interviewed and probably second to only Fraizer in that matter. He’s supposed to specialize in EDGE rushers, we have one good one to work with and need bodies outside of that, so hopefully he can work some magic.
Lol
If we hired the first guy we interviewed:
GIANTS ALWAYS HIRE FROM WITHIN AND DONT CAST A WIDE ENOUGH NET
When we go through a robust interview process and choose someone who the beat reporters weren't talking about:
GIANTS MISSED THE GUY THEY ACTUALLY WANTED AND NOBODY WANTS TO COACH HERE
I’m shocked this is where they wound up going. Nothing against him or the resume, there were just a lot of interviews after him that lead me to believe there wasn’t that much interest.
GIANTS MISSED THE GUY THEY ACTUALLY WANTED AND NOBODY WANTS TO COACH HERE
The dumbest thing about this site is when people do things like this.
Nobody said nobody wants to coach here. It was said that some people are hesitant about coming here because it could be a lame duck situation. Which is true.
Some people will think otherwise and choose to come here. It’s really not a complicated thing to understand.
why didn't we sign him sooner or he wasn't our first choice. I am sure he was waiting to first see if Vrabel got a coaching job. I am shocked he didn't and the fact we got a proven DC is great. I would bet he was a top choice, but wanted to hold on to see what was going to happen.
Connor Hughes
@Connor_J_Hughes
#Giants held an exhaustive search for their new DC. Shane Bowen impressed them. They believe he's a good teacher & communicator. Very physical style of defense. He actually shares some of the same roots as Wink Martindale (Dean Pees), but his scheme is a bit simpler. That could be a positive for #Giants.
Defense is 3-4 base, but varies by game plan. They are Patriots-like in that they do everything they can to take away what you do best and make you beat them with your second form of attack.
Production has certainly been there for #Titans under Bowen — ranked 10th, 11th and 16th in PPG. Very stout in red zone where they ranked seventh in 2021, then first in both 2022 and 2023.
Will say this: I'm told Mike Vrabel was very — very — involved in the Titans defense as a head coach. So it will be interesting to see what Bowen's defense/scheme looks like now without him.
Shane Bowen was the only known candidate with play-calling experience.
This 8s really an important factor in the hire. Its not like the Giants have this juggernaut offense where they can afford a crappy defensive season. This guy os going to be relied on so that Danoli can focus entirely 9n the offense and not worry about a questionable scheme (Wink's) or a DC who has never called the defensive plays (Wilson, Daly).
Love the Vrabel connection.
Perhaps a lower risk move for Bowen than other candidates
Let's say the Giants implode and everyone is out on their ass by 2025. That's right when Vrabel is going to be back in the market to be a head coach again.
Let's say the Giants implode and everyone is out on their ass by 2025. That's right when Vrabel is going to be back in the market to be a head coach again.
You know what else makes coming here low risk... we were bottom in the league in most stats. He improves us to even mid level and he will look really good.
I’m shocked this is where they wound up going. Nothing against him or the resume, there were just a lot of interviews after him that lead me to believe there wasn’t that much interest.
On the bright side, this is actually one of the more proven candidates we interviewed and probably second to only Fraizer in that matter. He’s supposed to specialize in EDGE rushers, we have one good one to work with and need bodies outside of that, so hopefully he can work some magic.
Lol
If we hired the first guy we interviewed:
GIANTS ALWAYS HIRE FROM WITHIN AND DONT CAST A WIDE ENOUGH NET
When we go through a robust interview process and choose someone who the beat reporters weren't talking about:
GIANTS MISSED THE GUY THEY ACTUALLY WANTED AND NOBODY WANTS TO COACH HERE
Where on earth was there anything in my comment that lead to this response?? There was no complaining, no negativity, nothing. Just that I didn’t think he was going to be the pick based on the flow of the process, thats it…
GIANTS MISSED THE GUY THEY ACTUALLY WANTED AND NOBODY WANTS TO COACH HERE
The dumbest thing about this site is when people do things like this.
Nobody said nobody wants to coach here. It was said that some people are hesitant about coming here because it could be a lame duck situation. Which is true.
Some people will think otherwise and choose to come here. It’s really not a complicated thing to understand.
No, Essex said exactly that. Repeatedly. He's clearly Raanan's biggest (only?) fan.
If more D coaches join from Tennessee but interesting considering Vrabel is available next season if things go bad next year and they already have a key guy from Tennessee in the FO.
I’m shocked this is where they wound up going. Nothing against him or the resume, there were just a lot of interviews after him that lead me to believe there wasn’t that much interest.
It's called due diligence.
I’m lost by your comment. Nothing in the entire process ever indicated they were leaning towards Bowen, none of the beats reported him as a possibility, the flow of the process didn’t indicate it. So chiming in with “its called due diligence” doesn’t really explain anything. It wasn’t even reported he had a second interview.
I’m shocked this is where they wound up going. Nothing against him or the resume, there were just a lot of interviews after him that lead me to believe there wasn’t that much interest.
On the bright side, this is actually one of the more proven candidates we interviewed and probably second to only Fraizer in that matter. He’s supposed to specialize in EDGE rushers, we have one good one to work with and need bodies outside of that, so hopefully he can work some magic.
Perhaps he was hoping Vrabel would get a HC gig somewhere and was waiting that out a bit.
I’m shocked this is where they wound up going. Nothing against him or the resume, there were just a lot of interviews after him that lead me to believe there wasn’t that much interest.
On the bright side, this is actually one of the more proven candidates we interviewed and probably second to only Fraizer in that matter. He’s supposed to specialize in EDGE rushers, we have one good one to work with and need bodies outside of that, so hopefully he can work some magic.
Perhaps he was hoping Vrabel would get a HC gig somewhere and was waiting that out a bit.
It’s possible. I think the likelihood is that Wilson was target 1, Babich target 2, when both fell through they probably wanted to get together as a group and discuss but waited until after the Senior Bowl.
is odd unless there was ongoing negotiations between Bowen and the team about issues.
Bowen was interviewed some time ago.
Could be that some position coaches Bowen wanted were still coaching and the Giants wanted to see if their current teams would let them come plus set up interviews.
You guys have all become caricatures at this point
They very well could have made this hire because they didn’t want to risk Daly saying no. Not sure how that is an unreasonable opinion.
You’re simply twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to find a way to criticize the move. They interviewed many candidates. According to Stapleton, more than the public even knows. They took their time, much to the agitation of this fanbase. Then they hired a young candidate with DC experience that did a pretty damn good job on a team that didn’t have a ton of talent and your first reaction is you hope they didn’t panic? It makes no sense. There’s plenty to criticize this team about without creating made up nonsense in your brain
His whole behavior this past season is beyond alarming and now he will spend this season unemployed unless a team hires him as an assistant. It wouldn't surprise me if his days in the NFL are over as I personally would never hire a coach who will probably try to backstab me to steal my job.
why didn't we sign him sooner or he wasn't our first choice. I am sure he was waiting to first see if Vrabel got a coaching job. I am shocked he didn't and the fact we got a proven DC is great. I would bet he was a top choice, but wanted to hold on to see what was going to happen.
If more D coaches join from Tennessee but interesting considering Vrabel is available next season if things go bad next year and they already have a key guy from Tennessee in the FO.
I was thinking the same thing. It'd be the perfect place for Vrabel to drop into. Daboll better take heed.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
Shane Bowen started calling plays for the Titans' defense in 2020 when he was a 33-year-old OLB coach and Mike Vrabel decided that season to not hire a replacement for DC Dean Pees.
Don’t know much about the guy but I do know that the Titans’ defenses under him always seemed to be really physical. Might not have been the best but you know they were going to try to kick your ass up front.
If anything it’s certainly somewhat of an out of the box hire. Most hired always try to get the next up and coming guy. We got a guy who has really solid success calling plays for good defenses when the talent has been there. I’ll take it.
Bowen's defense was first in red zone (37.7 percent) and goal-to-go (42.86 percent).
Callahan, who was Bengals offensive coordinator for five seasons before taking the Titans job, has faced Bowen's defenses three times since 2021. The high-scoring Bengals offenses managed only 14 points per game, including a 27-3 beatdown last season.
Callahan dropped a hint in his introductory press conference that could shed light on why he might keep Bowen.
"I know the hard defenses to game-plan against, and those are the things that I'm looking for in the style of defense we're going to play," Callahan said. "Without getting too far down a bunch of characteristics that don't mean much until we put the pads on ... that's what I look for is what makes it hard for me as an offensive coach. That's the style of defense that I'm looking for."
If anything it’s certainly somewhat of an out of the box hire. Most hired always try to get the next up and coming guy. We got a guy who has really solid success calling plays for good defenses when the talent has been there. I’ll take it.
The Giant Insider Podcast and Newspaper
@GiantInsider
Highest blitz % in a game last season for Shane Bowen was 37 percent. Wink had games in 70 and few in 80s. So, two totally different philosophies.
You guys have all become caricatures at this point
They very well could have made this hire because they didn’t want to risk Daly saying no. Not sure how that is an unreasonable opinion.
You’re simply twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to find a way to criticize the move. They interviewed many candidates. According to Stapleton, more than the public even knows. They took their time, much to the agitation of this fanbase. Then they hired a young candidate with DC experience that did a pretty damn good job on a team that didn’t have a ton of talent and your first reaction is you hope they didn’t panic? It makes no sense. There’s plenty to criticize this team about without creating made up nonsense in your brain
How is saying “I hope it wasn’t a panic move” criticizing the move?
Wilson was clearly their #1 choice, if Daly was their #2 and they hired Bowen instead of waiting for an answer from Daly that wouldn’t be ideal.
Nowhere did I say it was a panic move or even criticized it. However, everything the Giants do is going to get a side eye until they prove they deserve the benefit of the doubt. That’s grounded in reality.
Turnovers are inconsistent even on the best defenses
If anything it’s certainly somewhat of an out of the box hire. Most hired always try to get the next up and coming guy. We got a guy who has really solid success calling plays for good defenses when the talent has been there. I’ll take it.
If anything it’s certainly somewhat of an out of the box hire. Most hired always try to get the next up and coming guy. We got a guy who has really solid success calling plays for good defenses when the talent has been there. I’ll take it.
In looking at the Titans defense I am concerned that they don't create turnovers.
(8) forced fumbles (26)
(6) interceptions (32)
Total of only (14) turnovers compared to the Giants last year had (31) forced turnovers.
Turnovers are related to pressure the discrepancy is very disturbing.
Turnovers come and go. Giants were terrible at creating turnovers in 2022 and early in 2023.
Not disagreeing with the element of randomness, but Giants defense was 2nd in the league in fumbles recovered in 2022, and a number of those recoveries played a key role in wins.
They were near the bottom of INTs in 2022, 31 of 32 teams.
In 2023, they were again 2nd in fumble recoveries and jumped all the way up to number 3 in INTs. The combination put the defense number 1 in the league for TOs on the season.
The turnover bonanza that began after the first four games is the reason Giants are picking 6 instead of 2 or 3.
8 minutes on Shane Bowen as a defensive coordinator
At least Bowen has some recent experience as an NFL DC, so that seems positive.
Same here. Seems like a desperate hire. When is it that the Giants get anything they want?? smh. Only upside is, good history against the run and experienced coach.
Wouldn't the panic move have been promoting Henderson? We all criticized the articles over the weekend.
Forget it. There is no scenario in which he wouldn’t have questioned the move and wondered if it was a panic move. He’s had his post lined up for weeks. No matter who they hired
Wouldn't the panic move have been promoting Henderson? We all criticized the articles over the weekend.
Forget it. There is no scenario in which he wouldn’t have questioned the move and wondered if it was a panic move. He’s had his post lined up for weeks. No matter who they hired
For certain hires it would cross my mind, but for a sub-40 experienced DC who has built strong units in areas we struggled I would not be doing it for him.
Wouldn't the panic move have been promoting Henderson? We all criticized the articles over the weekend.
Forget it. There is no scenario in which he wouldn’t have questioned the move and wondered if it was a panic move. He’s had his post lined up for weeks. No matter who they hired
For certain hires it would cross my mind, but for a sub-40 experienced DC who has built strong units in areas we struggled I would not be doing it for him.
To play Wink's defense; that's why the Ravens fired him. Not that they didn't like him but that he doesn't want to do anything else - "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead"
20 total turnovers in 2022, 22 in 2021, 23 in 2020
Tennessee has been at the bottom for creating turnovers.
That is not good.
Top teams in turnovers
2022: SF (+13), DAL (+10) PHI (+8) DET (+7) NE (+7)
2021: DAL (+14) IND (+14) GB (+13) ARI (+12) MIN (+11)
2020: TEN (+11) IND (+10) MIA (+9) NO (+9) PIT (+9)
Titans defense plays a ton of stunts/games/twists and simulated pressures. Exactly what's given our OL trouble the last few years. Maybe we'll get some better practice looks this year and be able to pick up a stunt or two in real games
20 total turnovers in 2022, 22 in 2021, 23 in 2020
Tennessee has been at the bottom for creating turnovers.
That is not good.
Top teams in turnovers
2022: SF (+13), DAL (+10) PHI (+8) DET (+7) NE (+7)
2021: DAL (+14) IND (+14) GB (+13) ARI (+12) MIN (+11)
2020: TEN (+11) IND (+10) MIA (+9) NO (+9) PIT (+9)
There's no consistency to it.
Since the issue is defense creating turnovers, that would be the pertinent stat. Not the net plus/minus that depends on what a team's offense might be doing (or not doing).
And again, as I mentioned above, I don't disagree that there is a significant element of randomness in turnovers.
20 total turnovers in 2022, 22 in 2021, 23 in 2020
Tennessee has been at the bottom for creating turnovers.
That is not good.
Again, turnovers come and go. I've been a Giants fan long enough to know that. If your defense is predicated on turnovers, you are going to have a wildly inconsistent defense.
Wink's defense was bottom tier against the run. I'd rather have great run defense.
Wouldn't the panic move have been promoting Henderson? We all criticized the articles over the weekend.
Forget it. There is no scenario in which he wouldn’t have questioned the move and wondered if it was a panic move. He’s had his post lined up for weeks. No matter who they hired
You’re pretty sensitive if you think that’s criticism.
I actually like Bowen, I’ve met him a couple of times. I just hope they didn’t pass up on someone they may held in higher regard because they didn’t want to wait any longer incase that person said no.
Like I said the first time, it’s logical. I would have been escactic with a Wilson or Daly hire btw. My third choice was Weaver. But run with whatever you’ve made up in your head.
If I can recall, Wasn't Bowen one of the first DC candidates
of NYG fans on Twitter don't seem to know just how bad Wink's defense was.
Eric, a couple things.
We all understand Wink made his bed here with conduct behind the scenes that was clearly detrimental to the team, but again, there are 2 sides to every story. I highly doubt everything in the Ranaan “tell all” was false and therefore others (Daboll) I’m sure share some of the blame.
No one was complaining about Wink in year 1.
As for year 2, let’s at least be real. The defense had very little to do with the week 1 meltdown vs Dallas. It was a rough start for the team as a whole, the schedule was murder, and by the time the defense was playing really good football with the acclimation of Bobby O, they traded away a big piece of the defensive unit which was symbolically waving the white flag. They also started an extremely young secondary out of the gate.
It seems several of our opponents this year had great things to say about Wink’s defensive schemes. I put a lot of stock in stuff like that. All that said though, Wink will have to rehab his reputation after this.
I just think it’s worth looking at this in a somewhat balanced way.
At first glance, the first thing that popped into my mind was
Wouldn't the panic move have been promoting Henderson? We all criticized the articles over the weekend.
Forget it. There is no scenario in which he wouldn’t have questioned the move and wondered if it was a panic move. He’s had his post lined up for weeks. No matter who they hired
You’re pretty sensitive if you think that’s criticism.
I actually like Bowen, I’ve met him a couple of times. I just hope they didn’t pass up on someone they may held in higher regard because they didn’t want to wait any longer incase that person said no.
Like I said the first time, it’s logical. I would have been escactic with a Wilson or Daly hire btw. My third choice was Weaver. But run with whatever you’ve made up in your head.
And there it is. You’d have been ecstatic with Wilson or Daly with your 3rd choice being Weaver. So they hired someone that wasn’t on YOUR short list, so obviously there just may be panic involved in their decision. Got it. Thanks for proving my point. Panic= I liked other candidates more…
Whenever you watched TN play everything seemed to be a chore against their defenses. I for one am not going to miss Wink and his inability to stop a WR screen or drop a DT into coverage, etc
Read some of what was posted here about him - he helps players with pass rush - something the Giants need in spades. He has experience in playcalling
An experienced yet young DC who has worked for a very good NFL coach is a desirable coach to have.
What's ironic is that when we lived in Lockwood Glen w/them we sat out w/them on their back porch 4 yrs ago and I told him all about how I grew up w/the Giants. Now he's going to them. Wow.
He's the nicest guy and really chill in real life when he's not on the field. Their both Conservatives and his firecracker of a Wife is a huge Trump supporter. She's from TX.
RE: 8 minutes on Shane Bowen as a defensive coordinator
And there it is. You’d have been ecstatic with Wilson or Daly with your 3rd choice being Weaver. So they hired someone that wasn’t on YOUR short list, so obviously there just may be panic involved in their decision. Got it. Thanks for proving my point. Panic= I liked other candidates more…
I don’t think you can read. I said I like Bowen. I didn’t say that they panicked. I said I hope they didn’t make a panic move. Those mean two different things.
Wouldn't the panic move have been promoting Henderson? We all criticized the articles over the weekend.
Forget it. There is no scenario in which he wouldn’t have questioned the move and wondered if it was a panic move. He’s had his post lined up for weeks. No matter who they hired
You’re pretty sensitive if you think that’s criticism.
I actually like Bowen, I’ve met him a couple of times. I just hope they didn’t pass up on someone they may held in higher regard because they didn’t want to wait any longer incase that person said no.
Like I said the first time, it’s logical. I would have been escactic with a Wilson or Daly hire btw. My third choice was Weaver. But run with whatever you’ve made up in your head.
While I liked the idea of both Wilson and Daly, at the end of the day, they would be first time play callers. Also, Bowen as a Vrabel asst over the years as lure if Daboll's offense shows no progress or if he goes batshit on coaches again is a great deal of value.
I get the feeling they wanted to take a shot on Wilson, but were turned off by the idea of depending on Daly leaving KC for this job. Certainly more than just a consolation prize. Not every linebackers coach (Spags before he came here and what Daly is now) becomes Spags and not every DB coach who is lauded by DBs he coached in the past becomes a capable coordinator.
of NYG fans on Twitter don't seem to know just how bad Wink's defense was.
Eric, a couple things.
We all understand Wink made his bed here with conduct behind the scenes that was clearly detrimental to the team, but again, there are 2 sides to every story. I highly doubt everything in the Ranaan “tell all” was false and therefore others (Daboll) I’m sure share some of the blame.
No one was complaining about Wink in year 1.
As for year 2, let’s at least be real. The defense had very little to do with the week 1 meltdown vs Dallas. It was a rough start for the team as a whole, the schedule was murder, and by the time the defense was playing really good football with the acclimation of Bobby O, they traded away a big piece of the defensive unit which was symbolically waving the white flag. They also started an extremely young secondary out of the gate.
It seems several of our opponents this year had great things to say about Wink’s defensive schemes. I put a lot of stock in stuff like that. All that said though, Wink will have to rehab his reputation after this.
I just think it’s worth looking at this in a somewhat balanced way.
If you read my game previews for the past two years, you saw the transformation from me being a huge Wink fan to openly questioning his defense. This isn't sour grapes from me. Statistically speak, both in terms of yards and points allowed, his defense wasn't good.
If you can't stop the run in the NFC East, you can't compete. And his defenses were awful against the run here. He never fixed it. Even with a good DL and improved LB play.
The Giants have Cowden and Bowen in the building which may look desirable to Vrabel if 2024 is a disaster.
Yup, Schoen and Daboll are not a package deal. If this all goes South, I think Schoen gets another shot at hiring a head coach and Vrabel is a very safe choice with your job on the line.
of NYG fans on Twitter don't seem to know just how bad Wink's defense was.
Eric, a couple things.
We all understand Wink made his bed here with conduct behind the scenes that was clearly detrimental to the team, but again, there are 2 sides to every story. I highly doubt everything in the Ranaan “tell all” was false and therefore others (Daboll) I’m sure share some of the blame.
No one was complaining about Wink in year 1.
As for year 2, let’s at least be real. The defense had very little to do with the week 1 meltdown vs Dallas. It was a rough start for the team as a whole, the schedule was murder, and by the time the defense was playing really good football with the acclimation of Bobby O, they traded away a big piece of the defensive unit which was symbolically waving the white flag. They also started an extremely young secondary out of the gate.
It seems several of our opponents this year had great things to say about Wink’s defensive schemes. I put a lot of stock in stuff like that. All that said though, Wink will have to rehab his reputation after this.
I just think it’s worth looking at this in a somewhat balanced way.
If you read my game previews for the past two years, you saw the transformation from me being a huge Wink fan to openly questioning his defense. This isn't sour grapes from me. Statistically speak, both in terms of yards and points allowed, his defense wasn't good.
If you can't stop the run in the NFC East, you can't compete. And his defenses were awful against the run here. He never fixed it. Even with a good DL and improved LB play.
+1 run defense never improved. In NFC East that means you lose.
I prefer aggressive coaches.
I do not like bend and not break.
I like defenses that dictate to the offense.
Bowen is not that.
He came under considerable criticism from Titan fans for passive play.
The Titans played off the ball and rarely challenged the receivers. Wait until you see corners giving up crossing patterns and short passes. They play to limit the long play.
The Titans do not blitz. It is antithetical to the philosophy.
The reason the Titans did not have a lot of interceptions is that was not part of their game plan.
They will stop the run but unless Bowen changes his philosophy the Giants will be killed by teams making long drives.
The Giants have Cowden and Bowen in the building which may look desirable to Vrabel if 2024 is a disaster.
Yup, Schoen and Daboll are not a package deal. If this all goes South, I think Schoen gets another shot at hiring a head coach and Vrabel is a very safe choice with your job on the line.
Im glad it's obvious to others as well. This hire SCREAMS insurance if Daboll fails this year or at least doesnt show a marked improvement on last year. If we are stuck with Jones as the best option at QB, that will be rough, but je absolutely must figure something out be it coaching around his QB's limitations as he did in '22 or coach someone else up to at least make the offense respectable
I prefer aggressive coaches.
I do not like bend and not break.
I like defenses that dictate to the offense.
Bowen is not that.
He came under considerable criticism from Titan fans for passive play.
The Titans played off the ball and rarely challenged the receivers. Wait until you see corners giving up crossing patterns and short passes. They play to limit the long play.
The Titans do not blitz. It is antithetical to the philosophy.
The reason the Titans did not have a lot of interceptions is that was not part of their game plan.
They will stop the run but unless Bowen changes his philosophy the Giants will be killed by teams making long drives.
Bowen may prove to be a dud.
But Wink was a dud here.
Again, if you can't stop the run, what difference does it make if you are "aggressive"?
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
And not only that - but that Schoen is systematically hiring Tennessee Titans people so that when Daboll possibly gets fired he could hire Mike Vrabel?
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
And not only that - but that Schoen is systematically hiring Tennessee Titans people so that when Daboll possibly gets fired he could hire Mike Vrabel?
Jesus fucking Christ.
How could you justify bringing him back if his team scores less than 17 points and less than 2 TDs a game in 2024? Thats b9ttom 3 in the league. You simply cant justify that 2 years in a row Jones or no Jones.
RE: RE: 8 minutes on Shane Bowen as a defensive coordinator
but Tenn’s D’s are always physical. That would be nice for a change.
+1.
It’d be nice to see the opposing ball carrier or receiver get up a little slowly after the tackle. I miss the days where a Andre Reed was afraid to go in the middle of the field because he’d get worked over.
I prefer aggressive coaches.
I do not like bend and not break.
I like defenses that dictate to the offense.
Bowen is not that.
He came under considerable criticism from Titan fans for passive play.
The Titans played off the ball and rarely challenged the receivers. Wait until you see corners giving up crossing patterns and short passes. They play to limit the long play.
The Titans do not blitz. It is antithetical to the philosophy.
The reason the Titans did not have a lot of interceptions is that was not part of their game plan.
They will stop the run but unless Bowen changes his philosophy the Giants will be killed by teams making long drives.
Bowen may prove to be a dud.
But Wink was a dud here.
Again, if you can't stop the run, what difference does it make if you are "aggressive"?
I prefer aggressive coaches.
I do not like bend and not break.
I like defenses that dictate to the offense.
Bowen is not that.
He came under considerable criticism from Titan fans for passive play.
The Titans played off the ball and rarely challenged the receivers. Wait until you see corners giving up crossing patterns and short passes. They play to limit the long play.
The Titans do not blitz. It is antithetical to the philosophy.
The reason the Titans did not have a lot of interceptions is that was not part of their game plan.
They will stop the run but unless Bowen changes his philosophy the Giants will be killed by teams making long drives.
Bowen may prove to be a dud.
But Wink was a dud here.
Again, if you can't stop the run, what difference does it make if you are "aggressive"?
Correct.
Stop the friggin' run first.
It’s kinda funny since Wink ran defenses in Baltimore which were very good against the run but sputtered here. Hope Bowen has better luck.
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
And not only that - but that Schoen is systematically hiring Tennessee Titans people so that when Daboll possibly gets fired he could hire Mike Vrabel?
of NYG fans on Twitter don't seem to know just how bad Wink's defense was.
Eric, a couple things.
We all understand Wink made his bed here with conduct behind the scenes that was clearly detrimental to the team, but again, there are 2 sides to every story. I highly doubt everything in the Ranaan “tell all” was false and therefore others (Daboll) I’m sure share some of the blame.
No one was complaining about Wink in year 1.
As for year 2, let’s at least be real. The defense had very little to do with the week 1 meltdown vs Dallas. It was a rough start for the team as a whole, the schedule was murder, and by the time the defense was playing really good football with the acclimation of Bobby O, they traded away a big piece of the defensive unit which was symbolically waving the white flag. They also started an extremely young secondary out of the gate.
It seems several of our opponents this year had great things to say about Wink’s defensive schemes. I put a lot of stock in stuff like that. All that said though, Wink will have to rehab his reputation after this.
I just think it’s worth looking at this in a somewhat balanced way.
If you read my game previews for the past two years, you saw the transformation from me being a huge Wink fan to openly questioning his defense. This isn't sour grapes from me. Statistically speak, both in terms of yards and points allowed, his defense wasn't good.
If you can't stop the run in the NFC East, you can't compete. And his defenses were awful against the run here. He never fixed it. Even with a good DL and improved LB play.
Question is, was that a scheme or personell issue. Never finished worse than 8th against the run in Baltimore. They were first one of his years.
interesting both nyg/ten had similar pressure% and time to pressure
even though the nyg used a lot more blitzing to get there. nyg only had 2 players with 30+ pressures (lawrence, thibs). obviously no idea how much of ten was vrabel vs bowen, but i have a decent amount of confidence in the ten scheme working well in the front 7. a little less confident in the secondary, but they were pretty weak at CB.
Doug Analytics
@Doug_Analytics
The Titans defense recorded the 14th most pressures and the 3rd fastest time to pressure at 2.55s.
Time-to-Pressure of Titans' defenders with 30+ pressures:
Arden Key: 2.30s (2nd/78)
Denico Autry: 2.52s (11th)
Harold Landry: 2.55s (13th)
Jeffery Simmons: 2.60s (20th)
20 total turnovers in 2022, 22 in 2021, 23 in 2020
Tennessee has been at the bottom for creating turnovers.
That is not good.
Again, turnovers come and go. I've been a Giants fan long enough to know that. If your defense is predicated on turnovers, you are going to have a wildly inconsistent defense.
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
Daboll could conceivably survive a second consecutive bad season, as long as it's not absurdly bad or the lockerroom vibes aren't terrible.
The problem is, the stuff about Daboll's workplace behavior will all but certainly put him under a microscope next season. Every on-camera interaction, every press conference soundbite (by him and others) will be scrutinized. And the analysis will not always be fair to him. Shit stirrers gonna shit stir.
If the team wins, none of this will matter. But if not, even a simply mediocre season amidst a cloud of speculation about Daboll's behavior could be enough to doom him come next January.
Jesus I wish I could delete now. Like I said earlier I was just having fun anticipating the negative reaction and throwing out the worst name I could think of. Could have said Rod Rust too. Not based on anything. Don't know much about him. I miss the days when fans had a sense of humor about our struggles.
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
Daboll could conceivably survive a second consecutive bad season, as long as it's not absurdly bad or the lockerroom vibes aren't terrible.
The problem is, the stuff about Daboll's workplace behavior will all but certainly put him under a microscope next season. Every on-camera interaction, every press conference soundbite (by him and others) will be scrutinized. And the analysis will not always be fair to him. Shit stirrers gonna shit stir.
If the team wins, none of this will matter. But if not, even a simply mediocre season amidst a cloud of speculation about Daboll's behavior could be enough to doom him come next January.
This is exactly right. You can make excuses gor lack of production. But when it comes to a toxic work place, that is intolerable. If you win withon a yoxic work place, it can work out sometimes, but not for long (see Buck Showalter). If the team starts generating some good offensive production, maybe Kafka leaves and Tierney gets promoted... All is well. One more year of terrible production on offense and the stories of Daboll continue with Vrabel available, and he SHOULD be fired.
Are under contract for next year. I know scouts are year to year - but do position coaches usually coach under longer terms?
It looks like most of the Titans defensive staff could be available. (As per Titans wire 30 January)
Quote:
As of right now, the only coach from Vrabel’s staff who appears to have a shot to stay is defensive coordinator Shane Bowen, who the team is reportedly holding on to for now as it looks at candidates.
RE: interesting both nyg/ten had similar pressure% and time to pressure
even though the nyg used a lot more blitzing to get there. nyg only had 2 players with 30+ pressures (lawrence, thibs). obviously no idea how much of ten was vrabel vs bowen, but i have a decent amount of confidence in the ten scheme working well in the front 7. a little less confident in the secondary, but they were pretty weak at CB.
Doug Analytics
@Doug_Analytics
The Titans defense recorded the 14th most pressures and the 3rd fastest time to pressure at 2.55s.
Time-to-Pressure of Titans' defenders with 30+ pressures:
Arden Key: 2.30s (2nd/78)
Denico Autry: 2.52s (11th)
Harold Landry: 2.55s (13th)
Jeffery Simmons: 2.60s (20th)
This is very interesting considering the disparity in Blitze rates.
In 2023 the Giants blitzed 45.4% of the time (2nd most in NFL), while the Titans blitzed 22.0% of the time, 24th.
In 2022, the Giants blitzed 39.7% of the time (most in NFL), while the Titans blitzed 18.1% of the time.
I wouldn't overlook his time as Tennessee Titans Outside linebackers coach from 2018–2020.
Looking at the top 25 seasons for sacks in Houston Oiler/Tennessee Titan history:
2018: 25th all time / 39.0 sacks for 248 yards
2019: 12th all time / 43.0 sacks for 276 yards
2020: (not in top 25 season all time)
2021: 11th all time / 43.0 sacks for 316 yards
2022: 24th all time / 39.0 sacks for 264 yards
2023: 7th all time / 45.0 sacks for 315 yards
During Bowens's 6 seasons in Tennessee, the Titans had 5 of best seasons in franchise history. Given that goes back to 1960, that is impressive.
What we can't know is the level of Vrabel's involvement with these defences.
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
And not only that - but that Schoen is systematically hiring Tennessee Titans people so that when Daboll possibly gets fired he could hire Mike Vrabel?
Jesus fucking Christ.
Yes. A majority of football fans are fucking morons who spew garbage. Very few have any actual ability to understand the game or anything about it.
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
And not only that - but that Schoen is systematically hiring Tennessee Titans people so that when Daboll possibly gets fired he could hire Mike Vrabel?
Jesus fucking Christ.
Yes. A majority of football fans are fucking morons who spew garbage. Very few have any actual ability to understand the game or anything about it.
So are you saying that if Daboll finishes bottom 5 in the league again in TDs and points, that he should be unquestionably invited back to coach for a fourth year?
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
Daboll could conceivably survive a second consecutive bad season, as long as it's not absurdly bad or the lockerroom vibes aren't terrible.
The problem is, the stuff about Daboll's workplace behavior will all but certainly put him under a microscope next season. Every on-camera interaction, every press conference soundbite (by him and others) will be scrutinized. And the analysis will not always be fair to him. Shit stirrers gonna shit stir.
If the team wins, none of this will matter. But if not, even a simply mediocre season amidst a cloud of speculation about Daboll's behavior could be enough to doom him come next January.
What is the stuff about Daboll’s “workplace behavior?”
I prefer aggressive coaches.
I do not like bend and not break.
I like defenses that dictate to the offense.
Bowen is not that.
He came under considerable criticism from Titan fans for passive play.
The Titans played off the ball and rarely challenged the receivers. Wait until you see corners giving up crossing patterns and short passes. They play to limit the long play.
The Titans do not blitz. It is antithetical to the philosophy.
The reason the Titans did not have a lot of interceptions is that was not part of their game plan.
They will stop the run but unless Bowen changes his philosophy the Giants will be killed by teams making long drives.
I also read that their secondary was bad under his coaching.
I am not sure how that fits in with our team. The primary reason we won any games this past season is due to Wink’s aggressive play forcing turnovers. Our offense cannot sustain a drive for shit.
I am not sure how that fits in with our team. The primary reason we won any games this past season is due to Wink’s aggressive play forcing turnovers. Our offense cannot sustain a drive for shit.
Our defense looked like shit when we played the better teams that know how to protect the ball. Just look at the first 5 weeks of the season.
Everyone likes aggressive until you give up 156 points in the first 5 games. Our season was effectively over at that point.
but the secondary sucked.
As always it's personal as well as coaching
Bowen is a solid coach. I do see us allowing McKinney to walk for bigger money but we have Belton to step up and likely will draft a rookie safety too.
As long as our young guys develop on defense and stay healthy we should be fine with Bowen. The key is Thibs and Lawrence generating relentless pressure and our DB's covering well which is something TN could not do last year.
and I have pointed it out numerous times that Wink's defenses kind of sucked.
Despite getting the bulk of players last off season, he could not stop the run. He could not get his ERs to the QB.
Someone mentioned Tenn playing off the ball, but that is exactly what Wink did - CBs playing 10-12 yards off the LoS even on 3rd and short or medium.
As far as Daboll, he is not getting fired unless he goes full on Joe Judgian or they go 2-15 and show no clue as to what is happening on the field.
Let us also remember, like FA, it takes two to tango. The Giants need to want a DC and the DC needs to want to join the Giants.
My first reaction is that this hire makes a lot of sense.
I was very pro Daly because of his resume, and coaching parents, but he would have been a 1st time DC. Dabs has to get this right both with personality and skills. It’s a safer play to hire experience. I always thought Tennessee was tough to beat, but it is unclear how much was Vrabel’s overall influence. I wish Mr Bowen the best. Please keep Patterson and Henderson happy and especially please, NO 2 DL sets.
The Daboll getting fired dialog is utter stupidity
The guy won COTY one year ago and last year we won 6 games, could have easily won 3 more with a small amount of luck and a healthy Graham Gano…all this with a much tougher schedule and having to play a 3rd string QB for 6 games….not to mention another horrible OL year that led the league in everything bad.
Not to mention we finally beat the snot out of the Philadelphia Eagles last year. Hail to the King!
My opinion on Wink's defense was that when it was "on" it was awesome, top 5 in the league type stuff. But when you can't sustain that, too many massive breakdowns happen. That's when you end up towards the bottom of the league in defense. Too reliant on 1 thing happening during a play in order to get a stop. Not consistent at all on third downs and didn't do the little things right.
I like it on a number of levels. Though young, he's been a DC for 5
I've said in other threads that I don't think Daboll is a lame duck. He had a strong 2022 and kept the team together in what could have been a disastrous season with Taylor & DeVito at QB.
My point throughout the season has been that fans want their cake and eat it too. Every time I read about meaningless wins in 2023, I find it ridiculous because what is good for the franchise long term is bad for the head coach. Had Daboll gone 2-15 and the Giants had the 2nd pick in the draft, that would have meant he did an awful job down the stretch and it would have been bad for his resume. The same fans who complain about meaningless wins were referencing Pat Shurmur's career record every chance they got in 2019. The same fans who complain about not having a top 2 pick this year are the same fans saying Daboll is a lame duck coming off a 6-11 season. Well, which is it?
The teams which earned the top 3 picks in the draft (CAR, WSH, NE) all have new head coaches. You generally don't have seasons like that and bring back the head coach. So I find bitching about winning meaningless games to be extremely non productive and just comes across as whining. No head coach wants that on their resume and if they get it, they are typically replaced.
As for my point about Cowden and Bowen, it's just an observation. No, Schoen is not placing these people in charge in order to attract Vrabel next year. That's absurd. It's simply stating that Vrabel wanted Cowden to be TEN GM and the Giants just hired his DC of 3 years. Barring a complete meltdown by NYG in 2024, it won't have any relevance.
Its all about correcting the mistakes to determine the length of his future. So far, I like where this offseason is headed - new OL coach, new DC that will be in lockstep under HC - one team, one staff.
Better offseason prep, hard camp, getting OL and QB situation stable (and getting Jones replacement in house ASAP).
Folks can't dismiss reality of Daboll having short leash over next two years. No playoff berth in 2024, he very well is coaching to prove a year to year hold on job. Its just how the NFL is. Schoen and Daboll are not going to be given an unlimited 4-5 year leash because they got lucky in 2022. Did they get unlucky this year - of course, but they made some of that own "unluck" with some exuberant assumptions that blew up.
If the "program" is to just hope and pray with Jones, they are going to get blown up sooner or later. Heck I'll even confess I see a possible dead cat bounce in 2024 with Jones, but I don't trust him against good defensive teams (especially our own division), nor to stay healthy. Given contract - it's a fait accompli to anyone with sensibility to get a low cost option in house to develop and mold and move on in next year or two.
I am very hopeful based on tidbits being seen, and what I'm hearing from the grapevine about efforting a QB situation. So let's see.
Really doesn’t have an impact on if he’s at risk of getting fired with a bad 2024.
The team was an embarrassment in most games in 2023, and his side of the ball was absolutely pathetic. If they’re embarrassing again in 2024, I don’t think there’s any way that he survives and if he does he’ll be a lame duck in 2025.
Sean - my opinion - a lot of fans on this site love to live in the chaos and perceived drama that would happen "if" Daboll were to be fired. A lot of posters here just want to say things for dramatic effect.
Brian Daboll won coach of the year in 2022. He took the Giants to the final 4 of the conference in a year where most of this board thought the Giants would go 3-14. Quite literally - this has now been forgotten by almost everyone on this message board.
Brian Daboll went 6-11 in his second season - a lot of folks actually said this might happen. More roster turnover, more young players, tougher schedule. The OL was a disaster, QB situation was a disaster because of poor early play and injuries throughout the QB room. Somehow - again - these facts are just not even brought up when discussing Daboll.
Not only that, when most posters here thought the season would unravel, Brian Daboll beat the Packers with Tommy DeVito at QB. He beat the Eagles with Tyrod Taylor, nearly beat the Bills with Tyrod Taylor. Could have easily beaten the Rams if we know how to convert a 2 yard pass. Daboll kept the team together and they were strong towards the end of the year. Does that take the sting away from the 6-11 season? No, absolutely not. But they won 6 games with a disaster of a situation at QB. Also should have beaten the Eagles twice, a team that most everyone here said was 17 miles better than us before the year.
So - yeah - it pisses me off when fans just throw stupid shit out there like Daboll is "coaching for his job."
He is not coaching for his job. He's coaching to make this team a playoff team again. The only people who actually believe the "coaching for his job" bullshit probably don't realize that all of these "reports" about Daboll being tough to deal with are all put out there by Wink Martindale, who basically got fired because he created a narrative to national reporters about his job, became insubordinate to the point of ridiculousness and then spouted off to the media afterward.
The fact that fans still get fooled by this stuff is beyond me. Daboll is a good football coach and him and Schoen will continue on.
Really doesn’t have an impact on if he’s at risk of getting fired with a bad 2024.
The team was an embarrassment in most games in 2023, and his side of the ball was absolutely pathetic. If they’re embarrassing again in 2024, I don’t think there’s any way that he survives and if he does he’ll be a lame duck in 2025.
Not sure that’s really any better.
I think it absolutely does. The way Mara has operated he keeps a close eye on whether players continue to play hard for the coach. And why would Daboll want to go 2-15? All these coaches want to win. It's just a fans argument but has no bearing on what actually happens on the field. When do good coaches go 2-15 is another way to put it? You want to include Zack Taylor? I guess, but what's he ever done without Burrow? There aren't many.
My hope is he’s a teacher, develops and evaluates talent. His schemes will be based upon the talent. Only other thing I hope for is an honest assessment of the talent. I don’t think the Giants of the past do a good job of being honest about their talent.
He took the Giants to the final 4 of the conference in a year where most of this board thought the Giants would go 3-14. Quite literally - this has now been forgotten by almost everyone on this message board.
You clearly don't have a strong grasp on the definition of literally, and I'm starting to think this extends to numbers in general. Predict the 2022 Giants Record - ( New Window )
Really doesn’t have an impact on if he’s at risk of getting fired with a bad 2024.
The team was an embarrassment in most games in 2023, and his side of the ball was absolutely pathetic. If they’re embarrassing again in 2024, I don’t think there’s any way that he survives and if he does he’ll be a lame duck in 2025.
Not sure that’s really any better.
I think it absolutely does. The way Mara has operated he keeps a close eye on whether players continue to play hard for the coach. And why would Daboll want to go 2-15? All these coaches want to win. It's just a fans argument but has no bearing on what actually happens on the field. When do good coaches go 2-15 is another way to put it? You want to include Zack Taylor? I guess, but what's he ever done without Burrow? There aren't many.
Who said Daboll wanted to go 2-15? Perception matters more to Mara, and the team was a laughingstock. If they’re a laughingstock again it’s not going to matter much that they made the playoffs last year or went 6-11 this year. If the offense struggles to put up two touchdowns a game again he’s going to be at risk of getting fired. I can’t think of a single coach that has survived two embarrassing seasons that hasn’t had a successful past.
Basing decisions on if a bad team won some games at the end of year is what’s gotten the Giants to this point.
That would be disappointing. If the Giants fire Daboll without ever giving him a chance to build an offense with a QB skillset which he wants to run, that would be a missed opportunity imo.
That’s how the league works. At the same time, Daboll had some say in the Jones contract so he’s got some blame.
If the Giants end up with the chance to land a first round QB this year it buys Daboll a guaranteed two more years in my opinion.
If next years hinges on Daniel Jones and Daniel Jones alone, his job is going to be at risk. Remember, he’s supposed to be a QB molder. If Jones is pathetic again, that isn’t going to bode well for Daboll.
That would be disappointing. If the Giants fire Daboll without ever giving him a chance to build an offense with a QB skillset which he wants to run, that would be a missed opportunity imo.
That falls on deaf ears for me when they handed out the biggest contract in team history to Jones.
every thread leads to the same stupid 'elders of mara' debate
any head coach's job security is simple. they keep their job as long as they have a shred of hope alive they can win more games than they lose.
they get fired when they lose the room or do a bad enough job -- and that can happen to any coach any year.
as bad as daboll's 2nd year ended up he kept the team competitive and beat a few playoff teams with 2 different backup qbs. no award for that but it probably rightfully got him another year. next black monday he will sink or swim based on whatever the results are.
this time last year nobody would have guessed reich, vrabel, belichek, caroll would be out of jobs and siriani on the hot seat.
Siriani is on the hot seat a year after making the Super Bowl. But Daboll is safe if they’re bad again because he won a wild card game? Highly doubt it.
That would be disappointing. If the Giants fire Daboll without ever giving him a chance to build an offense with a QB skillset which he wants to run, that would be a missed opportunity imo.
That falls on deaf ears for me when they handed out the biggest contract in team history to Jones.
"Team history" is overstated imo. Look at it more towards what the QB market is.
For comparison, Vrabel was part of the decision making to sign Tannehill to a comparative contract to Jones, draft Willis & draft Levis. Willis wasn't a big deal as a mid round pick, but I'm not impressed with Levis thus far. Yet everyone likes Vrabel, but there is no evidence he is better equipped to evaluate the QB position.
That would be disappointing. If the Giants fire Daboll without ever giving him a chance to build an offense with a QB skillset which he wants to run, that would be a missed opportunity imo.
That falls on deaf ears for me when they handed out the biggest contract in team history to Jones.
"Team history" is overstated imo. Look at it more towards what the QB market is.
For comparison, Vrabel was part of the decision making to sign Tannehill to a comparative contract to Jones, draft Willis & draft Levis. Willis wasn't a big deal as a mid round pick, but I'm not impressed with Levis thus far. Yet everyone likes Vrabel, but there is no evidence he is better equipped to evaluate the QB position.
What does Vrabel have to do with this discussion. We didn't hire him. We hired his DC, who likely had zero say in evaluating their QB situation.
about the Vrabel-GM situation in Tennessee. Vrabel didn't run the drafts or personnel. Robinson and Carthon did. Robinson, for example, traded AJ Brown to the Eagles against the wishes of Vrabel, which led to the power struggle that got Robinson fired.
Strunk agreed that Robinson needed to go, but she still wouldn't give Vrabel total control even when Carthon was brought in. So, when this season ended, Vrabel asked for full control again, but Strunk said no because she wanted to keep the traditional set-up and move hard to a full analytics model.
Do admit I like how he employs his personnel. Lots of twists and stunts on the line.
He does run blitzes where his OLB will be in coverage disguising the play, so I imagine those who hated Thibodeaux in coverage will hate it. Thibodeaux is a tall man and can disrupt passing lanes.
Definitely need another OLB and corner, and in I feel McKinney can thrive in his defense.
A good analysis of Bowen's defenses by Big Blue View
Among many other things, they point out that Bowen had Vrabel and Jim Schwartz to lean on in Tennessee. He'll be more on his own in New York. Link - ( New Window )
I was very pro Daly because of his resume, and coaching parents, but he would have been a 1st time DC. Dabs has to get this right both with personality and skills. It’s a safer play to hire experience. I always thought Tennessee was tough to beat, but it is unclear how much was Vrabel’s overall influence. I wish Mr Bowen the best. Please keep Patterson and Henderson happy and especially please, NO 2 DL sets.
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
Daboll could conceivably survive a second consecutive bad season, as long as it's not absurdly bad or the lockerroom vibes aren't terrible.
The problem is, the stuff about Daboll's workplace behavior will all but certainly put him under a microscope next season. Every on-camera interaction, every press conference soundbite (by him and others) will be scrutinized. And the analysis will not always be fair to him. Shit stirrers gonna shit stir.
If the team wins, none of this will matter. But if not, even a simply mediocre season amidst a cloud of speculation about Daboll's behavior could be enough to doom him come next January.
What is the stuff about Daboll’s “workplace behavior?”
Can you please stop being dumb? It's fine if you think multiple reporters are simply carrying the water for two unemployed former Giant coaches (and fabricating sources still working in the building), but can you please not waste time pretending like your opinion of these reports is self-evident fact?
I don't get the people ripping JS and BD for the hire
A team with a HC going into his third year after a rocky second season who is not looking to clean house on the entire side of the ball to accommodate the coordinator could do far worse under the circumstances. The two guys we had over him had very sound reasons/connections for the choices they made. Getting a guy with coordinator experience who has learned under some pretty good people while having two strong veteran positional coaches in two key spots on that side of the ball to help ease the transition should not be reason for disappointment. It seems like a solid safe move. While the other guys might be more sexy hires, were a bit of a gamble with undoubted learning curve. Given where this team is, we should happy with the idea of having an experienced coordinator to run the defense and let Daboll focus more of his time doing what he does best which is figuring out the QB and things on the offensive side.
Yikes, those numbers are not encouraging. My6 guess is we will see an emphasis on pass rush in the draft.
His defenses use a lot of twists and stunts. More zone than man. As you can see, not really a blitzer but you must remember he hasn't really signaled a defense with his own stamp - yet. Vrabel was the HC overseeing things and they also had Jim Schwartz as an assistant for a bit. Also should note their defense has been hampered by injuries and lost a big key pass rusher in 2022 (Harold Landry).
No matter what, the Giants need another OLB who can play and rush the passer a bit. Cover some and contain. Ojulari isn't reliable for the run or being healthy. They also need another corner and hope to re-sign Xavier McKinney.
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
Daboll could conceivably survive a second consecutive bad season, as long as it's not absurdly bad or the lockerroom vibes aren't terrible.
The problem is, the stuff about Daboll's workplace behavior will all but certainly put him under a microscope next season. Every on-camera interaction, every press conference soundbite (by him and others) will be scrutinized. And the analysis will not always be fair to him. Shit stirrers gonna shit stir.
If the team wins, none of this will matter. But if not, even a simply mediocre season amidst a cloud of speculation about Daboll's behavior could be enough to doom him come next January.
What is the stuff about Daboll’s “workplace behavior?”
Can you please stop being dumb? It's fine if you think multiple reporters are simply carrying the water for two unemployed former Giant coaches (and fabricating sources still working in the building), but can you please not waste time pretending like your opinion of these reports is self-evident fact?
I don't doubt Daboll is probably loud and vocal, but so what if assistant coaches eff up(or players)? None of us know what is the real story. I think the fact that neither Wink nor Wilkins were hired probably lends credence to the stories being exaggerated.
BTW, what sources working at MetLife confirmed any part of the narrative? I may have ignored it if it was listed, but I do not remember it.
I love posters saying Bowen teaches his defense to be physical. Can someone name a team who teaches their defense to not hit hard and be physical?
I guess you missed the NFC title game When Detroit tacklers were bouncing off of 49er receivers when they had them tackled at or near the line of scrimmage
Among many other things, they point out that Bowen had Vrabel and Jim Schwartz to lean on in Tennessee. He'll be more on his own in New York. Link - ( New Window )
I love this type of stuff. I read some posters who wanted Wilson from the Ravens, who was never a D-Coordinator and were ok with that. But when we hire a coach who was a coordinator, we say he had help.
People always want to complain about something. You can't have it both ways.
I also read that Bowen was under contract with the Titans and they didn't release him until Wilson was hired. That may have been why we waited, but we'll never really know the truth.
BTW, what sources working at MetLife confirmed any part of the narrative? I may have ignored it if it was listed, but I do not remember it.
Both Duggan and Leonard's reporting cited people still working for the team who corroborated what was being said about Daboll's workplace behavior. Now granted, nobody was willing to put their name to it - but my point stands: anyone dismissing these claims as reporters carrying the water for Wink and Wilkins is also effectively asserting that those same reporters are simply fabricating additional sourcing to support their articles.
Anyone who wants to believe that is free to do so, but I don't see anyone willing to explicitly own it. It's all a bunch of hand-waving about disgruntled former employees with axes to grind, while ignoring that, at least on paper, there's a bit more to it than that.
Teams that can't stop the run are not going to win time of possession battles.
Question about that: Wink had a reputation for his defenses playing well against the run throughout his tenure with Baltimore. Then they weren't good against the run here. How much of that can be chalked up to Wink's defensive schemes, the personnel the Giants had, or other factors at work?
Who knows, but Dexter Lawrence and Leonard Williams were not problems. Wink hand-picked Thibodeaux and Okereke. They got him two veteran DTs in free agency too. They also got him his hand picked CB.
BTW, what sources working at MetLife confirmed any part of the narrative? I may have ignored it if it was listed, but I do not remember it.
Both Duggan and Leonard's reporting cited people still working for the team who corroborated what was being said about Daboll's workplace behavior. Now granted, nobody was willing to put their name to it - but my point stands: anyone dismissing these claims as reporters carrying the water for Wink and Wilkins is also effectively asserting that those same reporters are simply fabricating additional sourcing to support their articles.
Anyone who wants to believe that is free to do so, but I don't see anyone willing to explicitly own it. It's all a bunch of hand-waving about disgruntled former employees with axes to grind, while ignoring that, at least on paper, there's a bit more to it than that.
I realize I am pissing up a tree, but unnamed sources and "corroborating witnesses" are pretty loose assertions. And reporters ARE notorious for seeking out people that confirm their reporting. And just what positions do those people hold. Are they assistant coaches or are they office secretaries? Are they people that believe raising your voice is one of the seven deadly sins? BTW, when has Leonard ever been considered a reliable and trustworthy beat writer - Duggan, yes, is one of the better reporters.
Again, I believe that Daboll probably is crusty when he is pissed off. But so are many football coaches. Frankly, I think TC may have been one of the worst offenders. And it nearly cost him.
FWIW, my own wife says I am yelling at her, when in fact my voice is not raised but my tone is assertive, not elevated. (nature of the beast for an old sea captain.)
So I do think it is likely hyperbole mixed with truth.
Does anyone remember what kind of defense Romeo Crennel
advocated? Bowen spent several initial coaching years working under Crennel in Houston. Of course they had a guy named Watt and sone decent LBs back then too. Thanks.
BTW, what sources working at MetLife confirmed any part of the narrative? I may have ignored it if it was listed, but I do not remember it.
Both Duggan and Leonard's reporting cited people still working for the team who corroborated what was being said about Daboll's workplace behavior. Now granted, nobody was willing to put their name to it - but my point stands: anyone dismissing these claims as reporters carrying the water for Wink and Wilkins is also effectively asserting that those same reporters are simply fabricating additional sourcing to support their articles.
Anyone who wants to believe that is free to do so, but I don't see anyone willing to explicitly own it. It's all a bunch of hand-waving about disgruntled former employees with axes to grind, while ignoring that, at least on paper, there's a bit more to it than that.
I realize I am pissing up a tree, but unnamed sources and "corroborating witnesses" are pretty loose assertions. And reporters ARE notorious for seeking out people that confirm their reporting. And just what positions do those people hold. Are they assistant coaches or are they office secretaries? Are they people that believe raising your voice is one of the seven deadly sins? BTW, when has Leonard ever been considered a reliable and trustworthy beat writer - Duggan, yes, is one of the better reporters.
Again, I believe that Daboll probably is crusty when he is pissed off. But so are many football coaches. Frankly, I think TC may have been one of the worst offenders. And it nearly cost him.
FWIW, my own wife says I am yelling at her, when in fact my voice is not raised but my tone is assertive, not elevated. (nature of the beast for an old sea captain.)
So I do think it is likely hyperbole mixed with truth.
The fact that the poster you are responding to even gives Leonard the least little bit of credibility on his “reporting” is comical
There is a reason why Leonard was literally THROWN off the Rangers beat….
For making things up and using the same corroborated sources BS….
He is a disgrace
And fyi….Duggan was also thrown off the Rutgers beat as well….neither one of those guys in my opinion has any credibility
I get that some fans are not overly excited about Shane Bowden.
We should note that Ryan Cowden (our Executive advisor to the general manager) was withe Titans front office 2016 to 2022.
[ul]
[li]Director of player personnel (2016–2017)
[li]Vice president of player personnel (2018–2022)
[li]Interim general manager
[/ul]
Joe Schoen, Brian Daboll etc will have a very detailed understanding of what Shane Bowen brings to NYG, including his schemes, teaching approach, how he works with other coaches etc.
I believe that Daboll wants to keep most of the defensive coaching staff (as he should imho). How Bowen interacts with them will be important.
It may not be a 'big name' hire but that doesn't mean he isn't a really good fit for this team.
BTW, what sources working at MetLife confirmed any part of the narrative? I may have ignored it if it was listed, but I do not remember it.
Both Duggan and Leonard's reporting cited people still working for the team who corroborated what was being said about Daboll's workplace behavior. Now granted, nobody was willing to put their name to it - but my point stands: anyone dismissing these claims as reporters carrying the water for Wink and Wilkins is also effectively asserting that those same reporters are simply fabricating additional sourcing to support their articles.
Anyone who wants to believe that is free to do so, but I don't see anyone willing to explicitly own it. It's all a bunch of hand-waving about disgruntled former employees with axes to grind, while ignoring that, at least on paper, there's a bit more to it than that.
I realize I am pissing up a tree, but unnamed sources and "corroborating witnesses" are pretty loose assertions. And reporters ARE notorious for seeking out people that confirm their reporting. And just what positions do those people hold. Are they assistant coaches or are they office secretaries? Are they people that believe raising your voice is one of the seven deadly sins? BTW, when has Leonard ever been considered a reliable and trustworthy beat writer - Duggan, yes, is one of the better reporters.
Again, I believe that Daboll probably is crusty when he is pissed off. But so are many football coaches. Frankly, I think TC may have been one of the worst offenders. And it nearly cost him.
FWIW, my own wife says I am yelling at her, when in fact my voice is not raised but my tone is assertive, not elevated. (nature of the beast for an old sea captain.)
So I do think it is likely hyperbole mixed with truth.
The fact that the poster you are responding to even gives Leonard the least little bit of credibility on his “reporting” is comical
There is a reason why Leonard was literally THROWN off the Rangers beat….
For making things up and using the same corroborated sources BS….
He is a disgrace
And fyi….Duggan was also thrown off the Rutgers beat as well….neither one of those guys in my opinion has any credibility
Its amazing they are still allowed to be employed after shit like that. If I lied to one of our clients or misled them in any way, there is a decent chance I don't even get written up or even talked to harshly, I would be told its not working out and be let go. Free of explanation.
Having a writer bring absolutely nothing concrete and pissing off two sets of teams and their fan bases is an awfully long leash. There are plenty of writers who just want a chance and will do the job well.
RE: Did Adoree Jackson and Shane Bowen overlap at Tennessee?
BTW, what sources working at MetLife confirmed any part of the narrative? I may have ignored it if it was listed, but I do not remember it.
Both Duggan and Leonard's reporting cited people still working for the team who corroborated what was being said about Daboll's workplace behavior. Now granted, nobody was willing to put their name to it - but my point stands: anyone dismissing these claims as reporters carrying the water for Wink and Wilkins is also effectively asserting that those same reporters are simply fabricating additional sourcing to support their articles.
Anyone who wants to believe that is free to do so, but I don't see anyone willing to explicitly own it. It's all a bunch of hand-waving about disgruntled former employees with axes to grind, while ignoring that, at least on paper, there's a bit more to it than that.
I realize I am pissing up a tree, but unnamed sources and "corroborating witnesses" are pretty loose assertions. And reporters ARE notorious for seeking out people that confirm their reporting. And just what positions do those people hold. Are they assistant coaches or are they office secretaries? Are they people that believe raising your voice is one of the seven deadly sins? BTW, when has Leonard ever been considered a reliable and trustworthy beat writer - Duggan, yes, is one of the better reporters.
Again, I believe that Daboll probably is crusty when he is pissed off. But so are many football coaches. Frankly, I think TC may have been one of the worst offenders. And it nearly cost him.
FWIW, my own wife says I am yelling at her, when in fact my voice is not raised but my tone is assertive, not elevated. (nature of the beast for an old sea captain.)
So I do think it is likely hyperbole mixed with truth.
The fact that the poster you are responding to even gives Leonard the least little bit of credibility on his “reporting” is comical
There is a reason why Leonard was literally THROWN off the Rangers beat….
For making things up and using the same corroborated sources BS….
He is a disgrace
And fyi….Duggan was also thrown off the Rutgers beat as well….neither one of those guys in my opinion has any credibility
Its amazing they are still allowed to be employed after shit like that. If I lied to one of our clients or misled them in any way, there is a decent chance I don't even get written up or even talked to harshly, I would be told its not working out and be let go. Free of explanation.
Having a writer bring absolutely nothing concrete and pissing off two sets of teams and their fan bases is an awfully long leash. There are plenty of writers who just want a chance and will do the job well.
It’s not too difficult to make educated guesses who people’s sources are.
It's tweeted by everyone
Shane Bowen has had top 5 run defenses every year with the Titans and never been lower than 16th in PPG in his 3 seasons.
Bleacher Report - ( New Window )
here's his bio from wiki (added my own emphasis to the key paragraph):
In 2016, Bowen began his NFL coaching career with the Houston Texans as a defensive assistant where he reunited with Mike Vrabel, the Texans’ linebackers coach. Bowen served in this position for the 2016 and 2017 seasons. Houston finished the 2016 season with the NFL's top-ranked defense for the first time in franchise history, surrendering an average of only 301.3 total net yards per game. They also gave up the fewest first downs (17.0) and second-fewest net passing yards (201.6) per game.[11] In 2017, Vrabel was promoted to Defensive Coordinator. Under Vrabel's guidance and Bowen's assistance, the Texans ranked fifth in the NFL in third-down defense and set a franchise record for fewest yards per carry by opponents (3.97).
Tennessee Titans
Bowen in 2019
On January 20, 2018, Mike Vrabel was named head coach of the Tennessee Titans. Ten days later, on January 30, Vrabel named Bowen as the team's outside linebacker coach.[12]
Bowen's new role reunited him with Derrick Morgan, a defensive teammate during Bowen's playing career at Georgia Tech. Morgan was drafted in the first round of the 2010 NFL draft by the Titans and played nine years with the Titans as an outside linebacker. Bowen had the honor of serving as Morgan's position coach in 2018, his final season in the NFL since Morgan retired following the season.[13]
In 2018, the Titans' defense ranked eighth overall (333.4 yards per game), third in points allowed (18.9 per game), 10th on third down (36.6 percent), and second in the red zone (44.7 touchdown percentage). Bowen helped two rookies: second-round draft pick Harold Landry and undrafted free agent Sharif Finch combine for six sacks.[9] In 2019, the Titans' defensive backs were again a top-10 unit in passing yards and interceptions.[14] The Titans made the playoffs but lost in the AFC Championship game, just one game away from the Super Bowl.
After the 2019 season, Titans defensive coordinator, Dean Pees, retired. Beginning with the 2020 season, Vrabel assumed many of the duties once held by Pees. However, Vrabel entrusted Bowen with the role of defensive play caller throughout most of the season while the latter served as outside linebackers coach.
On January 29, 2021, Bowen was promoted to defensive coordinator.[15] [16] In 2021, the Titans finished the season with a record of 12-5, won the American Football Conference (AFC) South Division, and earned the AFC’s overall #1 seed going into the playoffs. The defense finished the season among the NFL’s best in multiple categories: #4 in touchdowns per game, #4 in opponent’s red zone scoring, #6 in 3rd down conversion rate, and #6 in points per game.
the guy could fall on his face like bettcher did but i have no idea how that wouldnt be just as likely if not more likely with anyone who hadnt been a DC before.
Link - ( New Window )
You say one thing about Schoen, at least he has better OpSec than the previous regime.
wtf? Panic move?
You guys have all become caricatures at this point
On the bright side, this is actually one of the more proven candidates we interviewed and probably second to only Fraizer in that matter. He’s supposed to specialize in EDGE rushers, we have one good one to work with and need bodies outside of that, so hopefully he can work some magic.
Quote:
Hope this wasn’t a panic move
wtf? Panic move?
You guys have all become caricatures at this point
They very well could have made this hire because they didn’t want to risk Daly saying no. Not sure how that is an unreasonable opinion.
Quote:
Hope this wasn’t a panic move
wtf? Panic move?
You guys have all become caricatures at this point
Just insane to consider this "panic." He coached very good defenses with Vrabel for over 10 years at OSU, Texans and Titans.
Plus if Daboll does get canned next year, might make this an attractive spot for Vrabel as I assume he would want to keep this guy.
On the bright side, this is actually one of the more proven candidates we interviewed and probably second to only Fraizer in that matter. He’s supposed to specialize in EDGE rushers, we have one good one to work with and need bodies outside of that, so hopefully he can work some magic.
Lol
If we hired the first guy we interviewed:
GIANTS ALWAYS HIRE FROM WITHIN AND DONT CAST A WIDE ENOUGH NET
When we go through a robust interview process and choose someone who the beat reporters weren't talking about:
GIANTS MISSED THE GUY THEY ACTUALLY WANTED AND NOBODY WANTS TO COACH HERE
Quote:
Sounds like they were given intentionally bad information
You say one thing about Schoen, at least he has better OpSec than the previous regime.
Spot on.
@art_stapleton
I'm told #NYGiants expect to bring back most if not all of their defensive staff under contract under Bowen, per source.
3-4 base
@JordanRaanan
Shane Bowen has been the Titans defensive coordinator since 2021. His unit ranked tied for 17th this past season.
He's known as a good teacher. Specialized in pass rush. His work with and the development of Harold Landry was notable under his watch.
#Giants
It's called due diligence.
GIANTS MISSED THE GUY THEY ACTUALLY WANTED AND NOBODY WANTS TO COACH HERE
The dumbest thing about this site is when people do things like this.
Nobody said nobody wants to coach here. It was said that some people are hesitant about coming here because it could be a lame duck situation. Which is true.
Some people will think otherwise and choose to come here. It’s really not a complicated thing to understand.
@JFowlerESPN
Sources: #Giants plan to hire former #Titans DC Shane Bowen as their defensive coordinator.
Giants have begun lining up talks with Titans staffers who worked under him.
@art_stapleton
I'm told #NYGiants expect to bring back most if not all of their defensive staff under contract under Bowen, per source.
I’d kinda rather the new guy be able to bring in some of his guys. Hopefully that ends up being the case. Henderson should stay.
@rydunleavy
#Giants have their DC.
Shane Bowen was the only known candidate with play-calling experience.
That seems odd. He has only two positions to replace the ones vacated by the Wilkens brothers.
Quote:
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
I'm told #NYGiants expect to bring back most if not all of their defensive staff under contract under Bowen, per source.
I’d kinda rather the new guy be able to bring in some of his guys. Hopefully that ends up being the case. Henderson should stay.
they have at least 2 open spots he can fill. patterson and henderson both seem pretty good. mix is best of both worlds, let cream rise to top.
@rydunleavy
#Giants have their DC.
Shane Bowen was the only known candidate with play-calling experience.
it's been sort of shocking to me that more people werent concerned by the lack of experience among the known prior candidates.
@JFowlerESPN
Sources: #Giants plan to hire former #Titans DC Shane Bowen as their defensive coordinator.
Giants have begun lining up talks with Titans staffers who worked under him.
does this mean the Wilkins Brothers are coming back? 🦆
Rannan is terrible at his job.
@Connor_J_Hughes
#Giants held an exhaustive search for their new DC. Shane Bowen impressed them. They believe he's a good teacher & communicator. Very physical style of defense. He actually shares some of the same roots as Wink Martindale (Dean Pees), but his scheme is a bit simpler. That could be a positive for #Giants.
Defense is 3-4 base, but varies by game plan. They are Patriots-like in that they do everything they can to take away what you do best and make you beat them with your second form of attack.
Production has certainly been there for #Titans under Bowen — ranked 10th, 11th and 16th in PPG. Very stout in red zone where they ranked seventh in 2021, then first in both 2022 and 2023.
Will say this: I'm told Mike Vrabel was very — very — involved in the Titans defense as a head coach. So it will be interesting to see what Bowen's defense/scheme looks like now without him.
@rydunleavy
#Giants have their DC.
Shane Bowen was the only known candidate with play-calling experience.
This 8s really an important factor in the hire. Its not like the Giants have this juggernaut offense where they can afford a crappy defensive season. This guy os going to be relied on so that Danoli can focus entirely 9n the offense and not worry about a questionable scheme (Wink's) or a DC who has never called the defensive plays (Wilson, Daly).
Love the Vrabel connection.
Based on what?
You know what else makes coming here low risk... we were bottom in the league in most stats. He improves us to even mid level and he will look really good.
Hey if they couldn't get Vrabel, getting his DC is good.
One thing Go Terps always yelled for was a deep and outside search(yes mainly for GM and HC) but I would think DC would be included in this.
I have always liked how Tennessee liked defense.
@Doug_Analytics
The Titans defense allowed the fewest % of opponent RedZone drives to result in a TD.
Of the 61 drives that TEN allowed into the RZ, only 23 of those drives resulted in a TD (37.7%)
But, of the 177 total drives for TEN's defense, they allowed 61 to enter the RZ (2nd worst %)
Quote:
Part deux
Based on what?
They share the same letters that are their initials? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Quote:
Part deux
Based on what?
No reason really just being negative :) Don't really know anything about him
Quote:
In comment 16389585 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Hope this wasn’t a panic move
wtf? Panic move?
You guys have all become caricatures at this point
Just insane to consider this "panic." He coached very good defenses with Vrabel for over 10 years at OSU, Texans and Titans.
Plus if Daboll does get canned next year, might make this an attractive spot for Vrabel as I assume he would want to keep this guy.
Quote:
I’m shocked this is where they wound up going. Nothing against him or the resume, there were just a lot of interviews after him that lead me to believe there wasn’t that much interest.
On the bright side, this is actually one of the more proven candidates we interviewed and probably second to only Fraizer in that matter. He’s supposed to specialize in EDGE rushers, we have one good one to work with and need bodies outside of that, so hopefully he can work some magic.
Lol
If we hired the first guy we interviewed:
GIANTS ALWAYS HIRE FROM WITHIN AND DONT CAST A WIDE ENOUGH NET
When we go through a robust interview process and choose someone who the beat reporters weren't talking about:
GIANTS MISSED THE GUY THEY ACTUALLY WANTED AND NOBODY WANTS TO COACH HERE
Where on earth was there anything in my comment that lead to this response?? There was no complaining, no negativity, nothing. Just that I didn’t think he was going to be the pick based on the flow of the process, thats it…
Quote:
GIANTS MISSED THE GUY THEY ACTUALLY WANTED AND NOBODY WANTS TO COACH HERE
The dumbest thing about this site is when people do things like this.
Nobody said nobody wants to coach here. It was said that some people are hesitant about coming here because it could be a lame duck situation. Which is true.
Some people will think otherwise and choose to come here. It’s really not a complicated thing to understand.
No, Essex said exactly that. Repeatedly. He's clearly Raanan's biggest (only?) fan.
Probably gonna need to import at least one quality DL then, maybe 2. (Already had that need, of course.)
WBG84
@WBG84
Titans advanced defense under Shane Bowen as DC:
2023:
Blitz %: 22.0 (T-24th)
Pressure %: 18.8 (T-27th)
2022:
Blitz %: 18.1% (26th)
Pressure %: 21.2 (18th)
2021:
Blitz %: 21.3 (28th)
Pressure %: 24.0 (T-22nd) #NYGiants
Quote:
I’m shocked this is where they wound up going. Nothing against him or the resume, there were just a lot of interviews after him that lead me to believe there wasn’t that much interest.
It's called due diligence.
I’m lost by your comment. Nothing in the entire process ever indicated they were leaning towards Bowen, none of the beats reported him as a possibility, the flow of the process didn’t indicate it. So chiming in with “its called due diligence” doesn’t really explain anything. It wasn’t even reported he had a second interview.
Usually, Coordinators come in and you think they will get 2 years at worst. 2 years for uprooting their life, their family etc.
In NYG favor, IIRC, in this case Ryan Cowden knows him, I think from Tennessee? If so that is both sides have inside info on each other.
I do think this does put more of a need for another edge. Bowen is known for stopping the run.
Giants Hire Shane Bowen as Defensive Coordinator - ( New Window )
On the bright side, this is actually one of the more proven candidates we interviewed and probably second to only Fraizer in that matter. He’s supposed to specialize in EDGE rushers, we have one good one to work with and need bodies outside of that, so hopefully he can work some magic.
Perhaps he was hoping Vrabel would get a HC gig somewhere and was waiting that out a bit.
Have you ever considered posting anything other than empty hot takes?
Bowen was interviewed some time ago.
Quote:
I’m shocked this is where they wound up going. Nothing against him or the resume, there were just a lot of interviews after him that lead me to believe there wasn’t that much interest.
On the bright side, this is actually one of the more proven candidates we interviewed and probably second to only Fraizer in that matter. He’s supposed to specialize in EDGE rushers, we have one good one to work with and need bodies outside of that, so hopefully he can work some magic.
Perhaps he was hoping Vrabel would get a HC gig somewhere and was waiting that out a bit.
It’s possible. I think the likelihood is that Wilson was target 1, Babich target 2, when both fell through they probably wanted to get together as a group and discuss but waited until after the Senior Bowl.
Bowen was interviewed some time ago.
Could be that some position coaches Bowen wanted were still coaching and the Giants wanted to see if their current teams would let them come plus set up interviews.
Bowen is 37. He's younger than Wilson and Daly.
Quote:
In comment 16389585 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Hope this wasn’t a panic move
wtf? Panic move?
You guys have all become caricatures at this point
They very well could have made this hire because they didn’t want to risk Daly saying no. Not sure how that is an unreasonable opinion.
You’re simply twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to find a way to criticize the move. They interviewed many candidates. According to Stapleton, more than the public even knows. They took their time, much to the agitation of this fanbase. Then they hired a young candidate with DC experience that did a pretty damn good job on a team that didn’t have a ton of talent and your first reaction is you hope they didn’t panic? It makes no sense. There’s plenty to criticize this team about without creating made up nonsense in your brain
@JFowlerESPN
Sources: #Giants plan to hire former #Titans DC Shane Bowen as their defensive coordinator.
Giants have begun lining up talks with Titans staffers who worked under him.
Bowen was interviewed some time ago.
Wonder if Bowen gave them an ultimatum before Daly became available
Report: Callahan May Keep Shane Bowen as Titans’ Defensive Coordinator - ( New Window )
This +1
Glad to see someone on the ball. Nice call.
(8) forced fumbles (26)
(6) interceptions (32)
Total of only (14) turnovers compared to the Giants last year had (31) forced turnovers.
Turnovers are related to pressure the discrepancy is very disturbing.
https://titanswire.usatoday.com/2024/01/30/titans-shane-bowen-defensive-coordinator-holding-on-for-now/
(8) forced fumbles (26)
(6) interceptions (32)
Total of only (14) turnovers compared to the Giants last year had (31) forced turnovers.
Turnovers are related to pressure the discrepancy is very disturbing.
Turnovers come and go. Giants were terrible at creating turnovers in 2022 and early in 2023.
Would be great if he has a relationship to pull D Autry up here to pair with Dex up front.
Plays a lot of nickel but good at stoping the run.
Gave up a lot through the air though. will need Pass rush to get better.
I was thinking the same thing. It'd be the perfect place for Vrabel to drop into. Daboll better take heed.
@art_stapleton
Shane Bowen started calling plays for the Titans' defense in 2020 when he was a 33-year-old OLB coach and Mike Vrabel decided that season to not hire a replacement for DC Dean Pees.
Bowen took over officially as DC in 2021.
I'm surprised. I thought after the Schwartz and Traina articles it was going to Henderson.
:-)
At least Bowen has some recent experience as an NFL DC, so that seems positive.
@clt_ny
Carmen Bricillo - NFL experience, lateral move
Joel Thomas - NFL experience, lateral move
Michael Ghobrial - NFL experience, promotion
Shane Bowen - NFL experience, lateral move
Fairly consistent philosophy from Schoen and Daboll
Callahan, who was Bengals offensive coordinator for five seasons before taking the Titans job, has faced Bowen's defenses three times since 2021. The high-scoring Bengals offenses managed only 14 points per game, including a 27-3 beatdown last season.
Callahan dropped a hint in his introductory press conference that could shed light on why he might keep Bowen.
"I know the hard defenses to game-plan against, and those are the things that I'm looking for in the style of defense we're going to play," Callahan said. "Without getting too far down a bunch of characteristics that don't mean much until we put the pads on ... that's what I look for is what makes it hard for me as an offensive coach. That's the style of defense that I'm looking for."
He was born in 1986. He's pretty young.
@GiantInsider
Highest blitz % in a game last season for Shane Bowen was 37 percent. Wink had games in 70 and few in 80s. So, two totally different philosophies.
Quote:
In comment 16389601 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 16389585 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Hope this wasn’t a panic move
wtf? Panic move?
You guys have all become caricatures at this point
They very well could have made this hire because they didn’t want to risk Daly saying no. Not sure how that is an unreasonable opinion.
You’re simply twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to find a way to criticize the move. They interviewed many candidates. According to Stapleton, more than the public even knows. They took their time, much to the agitation of this fanbase. Then they hired a young candidate with DC experience that did a pretty damn good job on a team that didn’t have a ton of talent and your first reaction is you hope they didn’t panic? It makes no sense. There’s plenty to criticize this team about without creating made up nonsense in your brain
How is saying “I hope it wasn’t a panic move” criticizing the move?
Wilson was clearly their #1 choice, if Daly was their #2 and they hired Bowen instead of waiting for an answer from Daly that wouldn’t be ideal.
Nowhere did I say it was a panic move or even criticized it. However, everything the Giants do is going to get a side eye until they prove they deserve the benefit of the doubt. That’s grounded in reality.
This literally describes the Wink hire too.
Waiting on Daly is not an issue.
Quote:
If anything it’s certainly somewhat of an out of the box hire. Most hired always try to get the next up and coming guy. We got a guy who has really solid success calling plays for good defenses when the talent has been there. I’ll take it.
This literally describes the Wink hire too.
Except the up and coming part :)
Quote:
In looking at the Titans defense I am concerned that they don't create turnovers.
(8) forced fumbles (26)
(6) interceptions (32)
Total of only (14) turnovers compared to the Giants last year had (31) forced turnovers.
Turnovers are related to pressure the discrepancy is very disturbing.
Turnovers come and go. Giants were terrible at creating turnovers in 2022 and early in 2023.
Not disagreeing with the element of randomness, but Giants defense was 2nd in the league in fumbles recovered in 2022, and a number of those recoveries played a key role in wins.
They were near the bottom of INTs in 2022, 31 of 32 teams.
In 2023, they were again 2nd in fumble recoveries and jumped all the way up to number 3 in INTs. The combination put the defense number 1 in the league for TOs on the season.
The turnover bonanza that began after the first four games is the reason Giants are picking 6 instead of 2 or 3.
I think Henderson was the last resort and they would have only hired him if Bowen and Daly said no.
Again, I’m not saying it was a panic move but the way the process seems to have gone it may have been.
At least Bowen has some recent experience as an NFL DC, so that seems positive.
Same here. Seems like a desperate hire. When is it that the Giants get anything they want?? smh. Only upside is, good history against the run and experienced coach.
aaaah yes.. forgot about that... good mention.
Forget it. There is no scenario in which he wouldn’t have questioned the move and wondered if it was a panic move. He’s had his post lined up for weeks. No matter who they hired
Quote:
Wouldn't the panic move have been promoting Henderson? We all criticized the articles over the weekend.
Forget it. There is no scenario in which he wouldn’t have questioned the move and wondered if it was a panic move. He’s had his post lined up for weeks. No matter who they hired
For certain hires it would cross my mind, but for a sub-40 experienced DC who has built strong units in areas we struggled I would not be doing it for him.
I gotta imagine Shane talked to Mike.
Quote:
In comment 16389738 Sean said:
Quote:
Wouldn't the panic move have been promoting Henderson? We all criticized the articles over the weekend.
Forget it. There is no scenario in which he wouldn’t have questioned the move and wondered if it was a panic move. He’s had his post lined up for weeks. No matter who they hired
For certain hires it would cross my mind, but for a sub-40 experienced DC who has built strong units in areas we struggled I would not be doing it for him.
Exactly.
Tennessee has been at the bottom for creating turnovers.
That is not good.
To play Wink's defense; that's why the Ravens fired him. Not that they didn't like him but that he doesn't want to do anything else - "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead"
Tennessee has been at the bottom for creating turnovers.
That is not good.
They also traded away most of their more productive players like Byard
Tennessee has been at the bottom for creating turnovers.
That is not good.
Top teams in turnovers
2022: SF (+13), DAL (+10) PHI (+8) DET (+7) NE (+7)
2021: DAL (+14) IND (+14) GB (+13) ARI (+12) MIN (+11)
2020: TEN (+11) IND (+10) MIA (+9) NO (+9) PIT (+9)
There's no consistency to it.
@AlbertBreer
Shane's a really good coach. Smart hire—and natural connection through Mike Vrabel to Brian Daboll.
Quote:
20 total turnovers in 2022, 22 in 2021, 23 in 2020
Tennessee has been at the bottom for creating turnovers.
That is not good.
Top teams in turnovers
2022: SF (+13), DAL (+10) PHI (+8) DET (+7) NE (+7)
2021: DAL (+14) IND (+14) GB (+13) ARI (+12) MIN (+11)
2020: TEN (+11) IND (+10) MIA (+9) NO (+9) PIT (+9)
There's no consistency to it.
Since the issue is defense creating turnovers, that would be the pertinent stat. Not the net plus/minus that depends on what a team's offense might be doing (or not doing).
And again, as I mentioned above, I don't disagree that there is a significant element of randomness in turnovers.
But he blitzed a lot, and that's what fans like.
Even if the play goes off big, it seems.
Tennessee has been at the bottom for creating turnovers.
That is not good.
Again, turnovers come and go. I've been a Giants fan long enough to know that. If your defense is predicated on turnovers, you are going to have a wildly inconsistent defense.
Wink's defense was bottom tier against the run. I'd rather have great run defense.
Quote:
Wouldn't the panic move have been promoting Henderson? We all criticized the articles over the weekend.
Forget it. There is no scenario in which he wouldn’t have questioned the move and wondered if it was a panic move. He’s had his post lined up for weeks. No matter who they hired
You’re pretty sensitive if you think that’s criticism.
I actually like Bowen, I’ve met him a couple of times. I just hope they didn’t pass up on someone they may held in higher regard because they didn’t want to wait any longer incase that person said no.
Like I said the first time, it’s logical. I would have been escactic with a Wilson or Daly hire btw. My third choice was Weaver. But run with whatever you’ve made up in your head.
I posted about the interview with Bowen on January 12.
Giants Interview Defensive Coordinators, Special Teams Blocked - ( New Window )
Eric, a couple things.
We all understand Wink made his bed here with conduct behind the scenes that was clearly detrimental to the team, but again, there are 2 sides to every story. I highly doubt everything in the Ranaan “tell all” was false and therefore others (Daboll) I’m sure share some of the blame.
No one was complaining about Wink in year 1.
As for year 2, let’s at least be real. The defense had very little to do with the week 1 meltdown vs Dallas. It was a rough start for the team as a whole, the schedule was murder, and by the time the defense was playing really good football with the acclimation of Bobby O, they traded away a big piece of the defensive unit which was symbolically waving the white flag. They also started an extremely young secondary out of the gate.
It seems several of our opponents this year had great things to say about Wink’s defensive schemes. I put a lot of stock in stuff like that. All that said though, Wink will have to rehab his reputation after this.
I just think it’s worth looking at this in a somewhat balanced way.
But we'll see. Let's hope for the best. Go Shane!
Quote:
In comment 16389738 Sean said:
Quote:
Wouldn't the panic move have been promoting Henderson? We all criticized the articles over the weekend.
Forget it. There is no scenario in which he wouldn’t have questioned the move and wondered if it was a panic move. He’s had his post lined up for weeks. No matter who they hired
You’re pretty sensitive if you think that’s criticism.
I actually like Bowen, I’ve met him a couple of times. I just hope they didn’t pass up on someone they may held in higher regard because they didn’t want to wait any longer incase that person said no.
Like I said the first time, it’s logical. I would have been escactic with a Wilson or Daly hire btw. My third choice was Weaver. But run with whatever you’ve made up in your head.
And there it is. You’d have been ecstatic with Wilson or Daly with your 3rd choice being Weaver. So they hired someone that wasn’t on YOUR short list, so obviously there just may be panic involved in their decision. Got it. Thanks for proving my point. Panic= I liked other candidates more…
Read some of what was posted here about him - he helps players with pass rush - something the Giants need in spades. He has experience in playcalling
An experienced yet young DC who has worked for a very good NFL coach is a desirable coach to have.
Now go get some more players
He's the nicest guy and really chill in real life when he's not on the field. Their both Conservatives and his firecracker of a Wife is a huge Trump supporter. She's from TX.
this was really good. giving it a repost.
https://youtu.be/F41eoZu-qF8?si=M36b3vY9TY6Gyhfb - ( New Window )
And there it is. You’d have been ecstatic with Wilson or Daly with your 3rd choice being Weaver. So they hired someone that wasn’t on YOUR short list, so obviously there just may be panic involved in their decision. Got it. Thanks for proving my point. Panic= I liked other candidates more…
I don’t think you can read. I said I like Bowen. I didn’t say that they panicked. I said I hope they didn’t make a panic move. Those mean two different things.
Quote:
In comment 16389738 Sean said:
Quote:
Wouldn't the panic move have been promoting Henderson? We all criticized the articles over the weekend.
Forget it. There is no scenario in which he wouldn’t have questioned the move and wondered if it was a panic move. He’s had his post lined up for weeks. No matter who they hired
You’re pretty sensitive if you think that’s criticism.
I actually like Bowen, I’ve met him a couple of times. I just hope they didn’t pass up on someone they may held in higher regard because they didn’t want to wait any longer incase that person said no.
Like I said the first time, it’s logical. I would have been escactic with a Wilson or Daly hire btw. My third choice was Weaver. But run with whatever you’ve made up in your head.
While I liked the idea of both Wilson and Daly, at the end of the day, they would be first time play callers. Also, Bowen as a Vrabel asst over the years as lure if Daboll's offense shows no progress or if he goes batshit on coaches again is a great deal of value.
I get the feeling they wanted to take a shot on Wilson, but were turned off by the idea of depending on Daly leaving KC for this job. Certainly more than just a consolation prize. Not every linebackers coach (Spags before he came here and what Daly is now) becomes Spags and not every DB coach who is lauded by DBs he coached in the past becomes a capable coordinator.
Lovely...then again, so are Schoen and his wife.
They already interviewed Daly. Could have easily just waited for him had they thought he was stronger than Bowen.
They already interviewed Daly. Could have easily just waited for him had they thought he was stronger than Bowen.
It's the opposite of a panic move.
Quote:
Their both Conservatives and his firecracker of a Wife is a huge Trump supporter. She's from TX.
Lovely...then again, so are Schoen and his wife.
😅
Quote:
https://youtu.be/F41eoZu-qF8?si=M36b3vY9TY6Gyhfb
this was really good. giving it a repost. https://youtu.be/F41eoZu-qF8?si=M36b3vY9TY6Gyhfb - ( New Window )
Makes re-signing McKinney more likely. Unless they think Belton and Owens have the instincts to be autonomous on those safety reads.
BTW, Ryan Crow was the OLB coach for the Titans.
Quote:
of NYG fans on Twitter don't seem to know just how bad Wink's defense was.
Eric, a couple things.
We all understand Wink made his bed here with conduct behind the scenes that was clearly detrimental to the team, but again, there are 2 sides to every story. I highly doubt everything in the Ranaan “tell all” was false and therefore others (Daboll) I’m sure share some of the blame.
No one was complaining about Wink in year 1.
As for year 2, let’s at least be real. The defense had very little to do with the week 1 meltdown vs Dallas. It was a rough start for the team as a whole, the schedule was murder, and by the time the defense was playing really good football with the acclimation of Bobby O, they traded away a big piece of the defensive unit which was symbolically waving the white flag. They also started an extremely young secondary out of the gate.
It seems several of our opponents this year had great things to say about Wink’s defensive schemes. I put a lot of stock in stuff like that. All that said though, Wink will have to rehab his reputation after this.
I just think it’s worth looking at this in a somewhat balanced way.
If you read my game previews for the past two years, you saw the transformation from me being a huge Wink fan to openly questioning his defense. This isn't sour grapes from me. Statistically speak, both in terms of yards and points allowed, his defense wasn't good.
If you can't stop the run in the NFC East, you can't compete. And his defenses were awful against the run here. He never fixed it. Even with a good DL and improved LB play.
Yup, Schoen and Daboll are not a package deal. If this all goes South, I think Schoen gets another shot at hiring a head coach and Vrabel is a very safe choice with your job on the line.
27th.
Quote:
In comment 16389721 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
of NYG fans on Twitter don't seem to know just how bad Wink's defense was.
Eric, a couple things.
We all understand Wink made his bed here with conduct behind the scenes that was clearly detrimental to the team, but again, there are 2 sides to every story. I highly doubt everything in the Ranaan “tell all” was false and therefore others (Daboll) I’m sure share some of the blame.
No one was complaining about Wink in year 1.
As for year 2, let’s at least be real. The defense had very little to do with the week 1 meltdown vs Dallas. It was a rough start for the team as a whole, the schedule was murder, and by the time the defense was playing really good football with the acclimation of Bobby O, they traded away a big piece of the defensive unit which was symbolically waving the white flag. They also started an extremely young secondary out of the gate.
It seems several of our opponents this year had great things to say about Wink’s defensive schemes. I put a lot of stock in stuff like that. All that said though, Wink will have to rehab his reputation after this.
I just think it’s worth looking at this in a somewhat balanced way.
If you read my game previews for the past two years, you saw the transformation from me being a huge Wink fan to openly questioning his defense. This isn't sour grapes from me. Statistically speak, both in terms of yards and points allowed, his defense wasn't good.
If you can't stop the run in the NFC East, you can't compete. And his defenses were awful against the run here. He never fixed it. Even with a good DL and improved LB play.
+1 run defense never improved. In NFC East that means you lose.
I do not like bend and not break.
I like defenses that dictate to the offense.
Bowen is not that.
He came under considerable criticism from Titan fans for passive play.
The Titans played off the ball and rarely challenged the receivers. Wait until you see corners giving up crossing patterns and short passes. They play to limit the long play.
The Titans do not blitz. It is antithetical to the philosophy.
The reason the Titans did not have a lot of interceptions is that was not part of their game plan.
They will stop the run but unless Bowen changes his philosophy the Giants will be killed by teams making long drives.
Please elaborate on your analysis.
I gotta imagine Shane talked to Mike.
thats it huh. 3 years is all your giving BD. then we start all over again.
how fucking stupid football has become.
Quote:
The Giants have Cowden and Bowen in the building which may look desirable to Vrabel if 2024 is a disaster.
Yup, Schoen and Daboll are not a package deal. If this all goes South, I think Schoen gets another shot at hiring a head coach and Vrabel is a very safe choice with your job on the line.
Im glad it's obvious to others as well. This hire SCREAMS insurance if Daboll fails this year or at least doesnt show a marked improvement on last year. If we are stuck with Jones as the best option at QB, that will be rough, but je absolutely must figure something out be it coaching around his QB's limitations as he did in '22 or coach someone else up to at least make the offense respectable
I do not like bend and not break.
I like defenses that dictate to the offense.
Bowen is not that.
He came under considerable criticism from Titan fans for passive play.
The Titans played off the ball and rarely challenged the receivers. Wait until you see corners giving up crossing patterns and short passes. They play to limit the long play.
The Titans do not blitz. It is antithetical to the philosophy.
The reason the Titans did not have a lot of interceptions is that was not part of their game plan.
They will stop the run but unless Bowen changes his philosophy the Giants will be killed by teams making long drives.
Bowen may prove to be a dud.
But Wink was a dud here.
Again, if you can't stop the run, what difference does it make if you are "aggressive"?
And you are basing this on what?
The voices in your head
Do you ever get sick of posting the same BS about Daboll ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHT5hG7wlss - ( New Window )
And not only that - but that Schoen is systematically hiring Tennessee Titans people so that when Daboll possibly gets fired he could hire Mike Vrabel?
Jesus fucking Christ.
What do you think will happen if the Giants have the 6th worst record in the NFL again?
And not only that - but that Schoen is systematically hiring Tennessee Titans people so that when Daboll possibly gets fired he could hire Mike Vrabel?
Jesus fucking Christ.
How could you justify bringing him back if his team scores less than 17 points and less than 2 TDs a game in 2024? Thats b9ttom 3 in the league. You simply cant justify that 2 years in a row Jones or no Jones.
Quote:
https://youtu.be/F41eoZu-qF8?si=M36b3vY9TY6Gyhfb
this was really good. giving it a repost. https://youtu.be/F41eoZu-qF8?si=M36b3vY9TY6Gyhfb - ( New Window )
That was interesting - thanks for posting/reposting it.
Quote:
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
What do you think will happen if the Giants have the 6th worst record in the NFL again?
He will remain the coach.
What do you think will happen if the Giants have the 6th worst record in the NFL again?
He will remain the coach.
What if the Giants have the 6th worst record and the 3rd worst offense?
Azeez Al-Shaair LB, 95.7% snaps, 27, $5,000,000 APY
Joseph Jones LB, 0.0% snaps, 30, $1,080,000 APY
Trevis Gipson EDGE, 6.6% snaps, $250,000 APY
Sean Murphy-Bunting CB, 65.8% snaps, 27, $3,500,000 APY
Kristian Fulton CB, 44.0% snaps, 26, $1,332,549 APY
Terrell Edmunds S, 41.1% snaps, 27, $2,000,000 APY
K'Von Wallace S, 64.2% snaps 27, $1,000,278 APY
As always it's personal as well as coaching
Sorry, I was just living in reality there for a moment, carry on.
Well okay then!
+1.
It’d be nice to see the opposing ball carrier or receiver get up a little slowly after the tackle. I miss the days where a Andre Reed was afraid to go in the middle of the field because he’d get worked over.
You are not going to get a top 5 defensive coordinator to take a lateral move to be the DC in NY.
Quote:
I prefer aggressive coaches.
I do not like bend and not break.
I like defenses that dictate to the offense.
Bowen is not that.
He came under considerable criticism from Titan fans for passive play.
The Titans played off the ball and rarely challenged the receivers. Wait until you see corners giving up crossing patterns and short passes. They play to limit the long play.
The Titans do not blitz. It is antithetical to the philosophy.
The reason the Titans did not have a lot of interceptions is that was not part of their game plan.
They will stop the run but unless Bowen changes his philosophy the Giants will be killed by teams making long drives.
Bowen may prove to be a dud.
But Wink was a dud here.
Again, if you can't stop the run, what difference does it make if you are "aggressive"?
Correct.
Stop the friggin' run first.
Ryan Crow, who coached #Titans' OLBs since 2021 and was on Mike Vrabel's staff for all six years, has been let go by the team.
Prior to taking over at outside linebackers coach, Crow was a defensive assistant for two seasons before moving to assistant special teams coach.
The Browns reportedly requested to interview Ryan Crow for their DL coach role
Quote:
In comment 16389819 Archer said:
Quote:
I prefer aggressive coaches.
I do not like bend and not break.
I like defenses that dictate to the offense.
Bowen is not that.
He came under considerable criticism from Titan fans for passive play.
The Titans played off the ball and rarely challenged the receivers. Wait until you see corners giving up crossing patterns and short passes. They play to limit the long play.
The Titans do not blitz. It is antithetical to the philosophy.
The reason the Titans did not have a lot of interceptions is that was not part of their game plan.
They will stop the run but unless Bowen changes his philosophy the Giants will be killed by teams making long drives.
Bowen may prove to be a dud.
But Wink was a dud here.
Again, if you can't stop the run, what difference does it make if you are "aggressive"?
Correct.
Stop the friggin' run first.
It’s kinda funny since Wink ran defenses in Baltimore which were very good against the run but sputtered here. Hope Bowen has better luck.
Quote:
Ryan Crow, who coached #Titans' OLBs since 2021 and was on Mike Vrabel's staff for all six years, has been let go by the team.
Prior to taking over at outside linebackers coach, Crow was a defensive assistant for two seasons before moving to assistant special teams coach.
The Browns reportedly requested to interview Ryan Crow for their DL coach role
Well that was Willins' job, soooo bring him over!
Based on your track record this all but guarantees it
I wonder if Henderson might be promoted to a similar role here.
And not only that - but that Schoen is systematically hiring Tennessee Titans people so that when Daboll possibly gets fired he could hire Mike Vrabel?
Jesus fucking Christ.
Please watch your language.
we have patterson at DL.
its the start of 3 good coaches coaching the 3 main position groups.
Quote:
In comment 16389721 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
of NYG fans on Twitter don't seem to know just how bad Wink's defense was.
Eric, a couple things.
We all understand Wink made his bed here with conduct behind the scenes that was clearly detrimental to the team, but again, there are 2 sides to every story. I highly doubt everything in the Ranaan “tell all” was false and therefore others (Daboll) I’m sure share some of the blame.
No one was complaining about Wink in year 1.
As for year 2, let’s at least be real. The defense had very little to do with the week 1 meltdown vs Dallas. It was a rough start for the team as a whole, the schedule was murder, and by the time the defense was playing really good football with the acclimation of Bobby O, they traded away a big piece of the defensive unit which was symbolically waving the white flag. They also started an extremely young secondary out of the gate.
It seems several of our opponents this year had great things to say about Wink’s defensive schemes. I put a lot of stock in stuff like that. All that said though, Wink will have to rehab his reputation after this.
I just think it’s worth looking at this in a somewhat balanced way.
If you read my game previews for the past two years, you saw the transformation from me being a huge Wink fan to openly questioning his defense. This isn't sour grapes from me. Statistically speak, both in terms of yards and points allowed, his defense wasn't good.
If you can't stop the run in the NFC East, you can't compete. And his defenses were awful against the run here. He never fixed it. Even with a good DL and improved LB play.
Question is, was that a scheme or personell issue. Never finished worse than 8th against the run in Baltimore. They were first one of his years.
Doug Analytics
@Doug_Analytics
The Titans defense recorded the 14th most pressures and the 3rd fastest time to pressure at 2.55s.
Time-to-Pressure of Titans' defenders with 30+ pressures:
Arden Key: 2.30s (2nd/78)
Denico Autry: 2.52s (11th)
Harold Landry: 2.55s (13th)
Jeffery Simmons: 2.60s (20th)
Quote:
20 total turnovers in 2022, 22 in 2021, 23 in 2020
Tennessee has been at the bottom for creating turnovers.
That is not good.
Again, turnovers come and go. I've been a Giants fan long enough to know that. If your defense is predicated on turnovers, you are going to have a wildly inconsistent defense.
1997
Daboll could conceivably survive a second consecutive bad season, as long as it's not absurdly bad or the lockerroom vibes aren't terrible.
The problem is, the stuff about Daboll's workplace behavior will all but certainly put him under a microscope next season. Every on-camera interaction, every press conference soundbite (by him and others) will be scrutinized. And the analysis will not always be fair to him. Shit stirrers gonna shit stir.
If the team wins, none of this will matter. But if not, even a simply mediocre season amidst a cloud of speculation about Daboll's behavior could be enough to doom him come next January.
Quote:
Part deux
And you are basing this on what?
The voices in your head
Jesus I wish I could delete now. Like I said earlier I was just having fun anticipating the negative reaction and throwing out the worst name I could think of. Could have said Rod Rust too. Not based on anything. Don't know much about him. I miss the days when fans had a sense of humor about our struggles.
Quote:
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
Daboll could conceivably survive a second consecutive bad season, as long as it's not absurdly bad or the lockerroom vibes aren't terrible.
The problem is, the stuff about Daboll's workplace behavior will all but certainly put him under a microscope next season. Every on-camera interaction, every press conference soundbite (by him and others) will be scrutinized. And the analysis will not always be fair to him. Shit stirrers gonna shit stir.
If the team wins, none of this will matter. But if not, even a simply mediocre season amidst a cloud of speculation about Daboll's behavior could be enough to doom him come next January.
This is exactly right. You can make excuses gor lack of production. But when it comes to a toxic work place, that is intolerable. If you win withon a yoxic work place, it can work out sometimes, but not for long (see Buck Showalter). If the team starts generating some good offensive production, maybe Kafka leaves and Tierney gets promoted... All is well. One more year of terrible production on offense and the stories of Daboll continue with Vrabel available, and he SHOULD be fired.
I've never liked defenses that DEPEND on turnovers.
Stop the run. Get after the passer.
Quote:
Giants interviewed like 29 candidates for this role. How would this be a panic move?
They already interviewed Daly. Could have easily just waited for him had they thought he was stronger than Bowen.
It's the opposite of a panic move.
Yeah, you're right but it's hard pushing against confirmation bias.
It looks like most of the Titans defensive staff could be available. (As per Titans wire 30 January)
As of right now, the only coach from Vrabel’s staff who appears to have a shot to stay is defensive coordinator Shane Bowen, who the team is reportedly holding on to for now as it looks at candidates.
Doug Analytics
@Doug_Analytics
The Titans defense recorded the 14th most pressures and the 3rd fastest time to pressure at 2.55s.
Time-to-Pressure of Titans' defenders with 30+ pressures:
Arden Key: 2.30s (2nd/78)
Denico Autry: 2.52s (11th)
Harold Landry: 2.55s (13th)
Jeffery Simmons: 2.60s (20th)
This is very interesting considering the disparity in Blitze rates.
In 2023 the Giants blitzed 45.4% of the time (2nd most in NFL), while the Titans blitzed 22.0% of the time, 24th.
In 2022, the Giants blitzed 39.7% of the time (most in NFL), while the Titans blitzed 18.1% of the time.
we have patterson at DL.
its the start of 3 good coaches coaching the 3 main position groups.
Could we see Andre Patterson with an Assistant head coach/defensive line role? (much like the Titans did with Terrell Williams)
That would be a way to ensure we keep both Jerome Henderson and Andre Patterson and keeping their key influences on the defence.
Looking at the top 25 seasons for sacks in Houston Oiler/Tennessee Titan history:
2018: 25th all time / 39.0 sacks for 248 yards
2019: 12th all time / 43.0 sacks for 276 yards
2020: (not in top 25 season all time)
2021: 11th all time / 43.0 sacks for 316 yards
2022: 24th all time / 39.0 sacks for 264 yards
2023: 7th all time / 45.0 sacks for 315 yards
During Bowens's 6 seasons in Tennessee, the Titans had 5 of best seasons in franchise history. Given that goes back to 1960, that is impressive.
What we can't know is the level of Vrabel's involvement with these defences.
Quote:
Part deux
Please elaborate on your analysis.
And not only that - but that Schoen is systematically hiring Tennessee Titans people so that when Daboll possibly gets fired he could hire Mike Vrabel?
Jesus fucking Christ.
Quote:
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
And not only that - but that Schoen is systematically hiring Tennessee Titans people so that when Daboll possibly gets fired he could hire Mike Vrabel?
Jesus fucking Christ.
Yes. A majority of football fans are fucking morons who spew garbage. Very few have any actual ability to understand the game or anything about it.
So are you saying that if Daboll finishes bottom 5 in the league again in TDs and points, that he should be unquestionably invited back to coach for a fourth year?
Quote:
Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
Daboll could conceivably survive a second consecutive bad season, as long as it's not absurdly bad or the lockerroom vibes aren't terrible.
The problem is, the stuff about Daboll's workplace behavior will all but certainly put him under a microscope next season. Every on-camera interaction, every press conference soundbite (by him and others) will be scrutinized. And the analysis will not always be fair to him. Shit stirrers gonna shit stir.
If the team wins, none of this will matter. But if not, even a simply mediocre season amidst a cloud of speculation about Daboll's behavior could be enough to doom him come next January.
What is the stuff about Daboll’s “workplace behavior?”
I do not like bend and not break.
I like defenses that dictate to the offense.
Bowen is not that.
He came under considerable criticism from Titan fans for passive play.
The Titans played off the ball and rarely challenged the receivers. Wait until you see corners giving up crossing patterns and short passes. They play to limit the long play.
The Titans do not blitz. It is antithetical to the philosophy.
The reason the Titans did not have a lot of interceptions is that was not part of their game plan.
They will stop the run but unless Bowen changes his philosophy the Giants will be killed by teams making long drives.
vrabel like - ( New Window )
Our defense looked like shit when we played the better teams that know how to protect the ball. Just look at the first 5 weeks of the season.
Everyone likes aggressive until you give up 156 points in the first 5 games. Our season was effectively over at that point.
As always it's personal as well as coaching
As long as our young guys develop on defense and stay healthy we should be fine with Bowen. The key is Thibs and Lawrence generating relentless pressure and our DB's covering well which is something TN could not do last year.
Despite getting the bulk of players last off season, he could not stop the run. He could not get his ERs to the QB.
Someone mentioned Tenn playing off the ball, but that is exactly what Wink did - CBs playing 10-12 yards off the LoS even on 3rd and short or medium.
As far as Daboll, he is not getting fired unless he goes full on Joe Judgian or they go 2-15 and show no clue as to what is happening on the field.
Let us also remember, like FA, it takes two to tango. The Giants need to want a DC and the DC needs to want to join the Giants.
Not to mention we finally beat the snot out of the Philadelphia Eagles last year. Hail to the King!
Would love a defensive coordinator who actually knows how to call plays towards the end of a half.
My point throughout the season has been that fans want their cake and eat it too. Every time I read about meaningless wins in 2023, I find it ridiculous because what is good for the franchise long term is bad for the head coach. Had Daboll gone 2-15 and the Giants had the 2nd pick in the draft, that would have meant he did an awful job down the stretch and it would have been bad for his resume. The same fans who complain about meaningless wins were referencing Pat Shurmur's career record every chance they got in 2019. The same fans who complain about not having a top 2 pick this year are the same fans saying Daboll is a lame duck coming off a 6-11 season. Well, which is it?
The teams which earned the top 3 picks in the draft (CAR, WSH, NE) all have new head coaches. You generally don't have seasons like that and bring back the head coach. So I find bitching about winning meaningless games to be extremely non productive and just comes across as whining. No head coach wants that on their resume and if they get it, they are typically replaced.
As for my point about Cowden and Bowen, it's just an observation. No, Schoen is not placing these people in charge in order to attract Vrabel next year. That's absurd. It's simply stating that Vrabel wanted Cowden to be TEN GM and the Giants just hired his DC of 3 years. Barring a complete meltdown by NYG in 2024, it won't have any relevance.
Better offseason prep, hard camp, getting OL and QB situation stable (and getting Jones replacement in house ASAP).
Folks can't dismiss reality of Daboll having short leash over next two years. No playoff berth in 2024, he very well is coaching to prove a year to year hold on job. Its just how the NFL is. Schoen and Daboll are not going to be given an unlimited 4-5 year leash because they got lucky in 2022. Did they get unlucky this year - of course, but they made some of that own "unluck" with some exuberant assumptions that blew up.
If the "program" is to just hope and pray with Jones, they are going to get blown up sooner or later. Heck I'll even confess I see a possible dead cat bounce in 2024 with Jones, but I don't trust him against good defensive teams (especially our own division), nor to stay healthy. Given contract - it's a fait accompli to anyone with sensibility to get a low cost option in house to develop and mold and move on in next year or two.
I am very hopeful based on tidbits being seen, and what I'm hearing from the grapevine about efforting a QB situation. So let's see.
The team was an embarrassment in most games in 2023, and his side of the ball was absolutely pathetic. If they’re embarrassing again in 2024, I don’t think there’s any way that he survives and if he does he’ll be a lame duck in 2025.
Not sure that’s really any better.
Brian Daboll won coach of the year in 2022. He took the Giants to the final 4 of the conference in a year where most of this board thought the Giants would go 3-14. Quite literally - this has now been forgotten by almost everyone on this message board.
Brian Daboll went 6-11 in his second season - a lot of folks actually said this might happen. More roster turnover, more young players, tougher schedule. The OL was a disaster, QB situation was a disaster because of poor early play and injuries throughout the QB room. Somehow - again - these facts are just not even brought up when discussing Daboll.
Not only that, when most posters here thought the season would unravel, Brian Daboll beat the Packers with Tommy DeVito at QB. He beat the Eagles with Tyrod Taylor, nearly beat the Bills with Tyrod Taylor. Could have easily beaten the Rams if we know how to convert a 2 yard pass. Daboll kept the team together and they were strong towards the end of the year. Does that take the sting away from the 6-11 season? No, absolutely not. But they won 6 games with a disaster of a situation at QB. Also should have beaten the Eagles twice, a team that most everyone here said was 17 miles better than us before the year.
So - yeah - it pisses me off when fans just throw stupid shit out there like Daboll is "coaching for his job."
He is not coaching for his job. He's coaching to make this team a playoff team again. The only people who actually believe the "coaching for his job" bullshit probably don't realize that all of these "reports" about Daboll being tough to deal with are all put out there by Wink Martindale, who basically got fired because he created a narrative to national reporters about his job, became insubordinate to the point of ridiculousness and then spouted off to the media afterward.
The fact that fans still get fooled by this stuff is beyond me. Daboll is a good football coach and him and Schoen will continue on.
The team was an embarrassment in most games in 2023, and his side of the ball was absolutely pathetic. If they’re embarrassing again in 2024, I don’t think there’s any way that he survives and if he does he’ll be a lame duck in 2025.
Not sure that’s really any better.
I think it absolutely does. The way Mara has operated he keeps a close eye on whether players continue to play hard for the coach. And why would Daboll want to go 2-15? All these coaches want to win. It's just a fans argument but has no bearing on what actually happens on the field. When do good coaches go 2-15 is another way to put it? You want to include Zack Taylor? I guess, but what's he ever done without Burrow? There aren't many.
You clearly don't have a strong grasp on the definition of literally, and I'm starting to think this extends to numbers in general.
Predict the 2022 Giants Record - ( New Window )
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Really doesn’t have an impact on if he’s at risk of getting fired with a bad 2024.
The team was an embarrassment in most games in 2023, and his side of the ball was absolutely pathetic. If they’re embarrassing again in 2024, I don’t think there’s any way that he survives and if he does he’ll be a lame duck in 2025.
Not sure that’s really any better.
I think it absolutely does. The way Mara has operated he keeps a close eye on whether players continue to play hard for the coach. And why would Daboll want to go 2-15? All these coaches want to win. It's just a fans argument but has no bearing on what actually happens on the field. When do good coaches go 2-15 is another way to put it? You want to include Zack Taylor? I guess, but what's he ever done without Burrow? There aren't many.
Who said Daboll wanted to go 2-15? Perception matters more to Mara, and the team was a laughingstock. If they’re a laughingstock again it’s not going to matter much that they made the playoffs last year or went 6-11 this year. If the offense struggles to put up two touchdowns a game again he’s going to be at risk of getting fired. I can’t think of a single coach that has survived two embarrassing seasons that hasn’t had a successful past.
Basing decisions on if a bad team won some games at the end of year is what’s gotten the Giants to this point.
If the Giants end up with the chance to land a first round QB this year it buys Daboll a guaranteed two more years in my opinion.
If next years hinges on Daniel Jones and Daniel Jones alone, his job is going to be at risk. Remember, he’s supposed to be a QB molder. If Jones is pathetic again, that isn’t going to bode well for Daboll.
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In looking at the Titans defense I am concerned that they don't create turnovers.
(8) forced fumbles (26)
(6) interceptions (32)
Total of only (14) turnovers compared to the Giants last year had (31) forced turnovers.
Turnovers are related to pressure the discrepancy is very disturbing.
Turnovers come and go. Giants were terrible at creating turnovers in 2022 and early in 2023.
That falls on deaf ears for me when they handed out the biggest contract in team history to Jones.
they get fired when they lose the room or do a bad enough job -- and that can happen to any coach any year.
as bad as daboll's 2nd year ended up he kept the team competitive and beat a few playoff teams with 2 different backup qbs. no award for that but it probably rightfully got him another year. next black monday he will sink or swim based on whatever the results are.
this time last year nobody would have guessed reich, vrabel, belichek, caroll would be out of jobs and siriani on the hot seat.
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That would be disappointing. If the Giants fire Daboll without ever giving him a chance to build an offense with a QB skillset which he wants to run, that would be a missed opportunity imo.
That falls on deaf ears for me when they handed out the biggest contract in team history to Jones.
"Team history" is overstated imo. Look at it more towards what the QB market is.
For comparison, Vrabel was part of the decision making to sign Tannehill to a comparative contract to Jones, draft Willis & draft Levis. Willis wasn't a big deal as a mid round pick, but I'm not impressed with Levis thus far. Yet everyone likes Vrabel, but there is no evidence he is better equipped to evaluate the QB position.
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In comment 16390088 Sean said:
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That would be disappointing. If the Giants fire Daboll without ever giving him a chance to build an offense with a QB skillset which he wants to run, that would be a missed opportunity imo.
That falls on deaf ears for me when they handed out the biggest contract in team history to Jones.
"Team history" is overstated imo. Look at it more towards what the QB market is.
For comparison, Vrabel was part of the decision making to sign Tannehill to a comparative contract to Jones, draft Willis & draft Levis. Willis wasn't a big deal as a mid round pick, but I'm not impressed with Levis thus far. Yet everyone likes Vrabel, but there is no evidence he is better equipped to evaluate the QB position.
there are fewer than 5 head coaches not on the hot seat coaching for their jobs any given year.
there were rumors the bills might move on from sean mcdermott a few months ago.
;)
Strunk agreed that Robinson needed to go, but she still wouldn't give Vrabel total control even when Carthon was brought in. So, when this season ended, Vrabel asked for full control again, but Strunk said no because she wanted to keep the traditional set-up and move hard to a full analytics model.
I've never liked defenses that DEPEND on turnovers.
Stop the run. Get after the passer.
This is a Guy
He does run blitzes where his OLB will be in coverage disguising the play, so I imagine those who hated Thibodeaux in coverage will hate it. Thibodeaux is a tall man and can disrupt passing lanes.
Definitely need another OLB and corner, and in I feel McKinney can thrive in his defense.
Link - ( New Window )
WBG84
@WBG84
Titans advanced defense under Shane Bowen as DC:
2023:
Blitz %: 22.0 (T-24th)
Pressure %: 18.8 (T-27th)
2022:
Blitz %: 18.1% (26th)
Pressure %: 21.2 (18th)
2021:
Blitz %: 21.3 (28th)
Pressure %: 24.0 (T-22nd) #NYGiants
Yikes, those numbers are not encouraging. My6 guess is we will see an emphasis on pass rush in the draft.
I'm with you.
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In comment 16389847 ryanmkeane said:
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Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
Daboll could conceivably survive a second consecutive bad season, as long as it's not absurdly bad or the lockerroom vibes aren't terrible.
The problem is, the stuff about Daboll's workplace behavior will all but certainly put him under a microscope next season. Every on-camera interaction, every press conference soundbite (by him and others) will be scrutinized. And the analysis will not always be fair to him. Shit stirrers gonna shit stir.
If the team wins, none of this will matter. But if not, even a simply mediocre season amidst a cloud of speculation about Daboll's behavior could be enough to doom him come next January.
What is the stuff about Daboll’s “workplace behavior?”
Can you please stop being dumb? It's fine if you think multiple reporters are simply carrying the water for two unemployed former Giant coaches (and fabricating sources still working in the building), but can you please not waste time pretending like your opinion of these reports is self-evident fact?
You don't get it, but you tend not to.
It's a mindset. It's a culture. It's not playing more talented players who won't play a physical game but playing the guys who buy into the mindset.
If you watched football under Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick, you know what I'm talking about. If you didn't, you won't.
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seems like a similar scheme but almost opposite approach from wink.
WBG84
@WBG84
Titans advanced defense under Shane Bowen as DC:
2023:
Blitz %: 22.0 (T-24th)
Pressure %: 18.8 (T-27th)
2022:
Blitz %: 18.1% (26th)
Pressure %: 21.2 (18th)
2021:
Blitz %: 21.3 (28th)
Pressure %: 24.0 (T-22nd) #NYGiants
Yikes, those numbers are not encouraging. My6 guess is we will see an emphasis on pass rush in the draft.
His defenses use a lot of twists and stunts. More zone than man. As you can see, not really a blitzer but you must remember he hasn't really signaled a defense with his own stamp - yet. Vrabel was the HC overseeing things and they also had Jim Schwartz as an assistant for a bit. Also should note their defense has been hampered by injuries and lost a big key pass rusher in 2022 (Harold Landry).
No matter what, the Giants need another OLB who can play and rush the passer a bit. Cover some and contain. Ojulari isn't reliable for the run or being healthy. They also need another corner and hope to re-sign Xavier McKinney.
And as usual, more garbage posting from you. Just real shitty stuff.
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In comment 16389929 BlackLight said:
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In comment 16389847 ryanmkeane said:
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Can someone explain to me where this theory about Daboll losing his job after this season derived from?
Daboll could conceivably survive a second consecutive bad season, as long as it's not absurdly bad or the lockerroom vibes aren't terrible.
The problem is, the stuff about Daboll's workplace behavior will all but certainly put him under a microscope next season. Every on-camera interaction, every press conference soundbite (by him and others) will be scrutinized. And the analysis will not always be fair to him. Shit stirrers gonna shit stir.
If the team wins, none of this will matter. But if not, even a simply mediocre season amidst a cloud of speculation about Daboll's behavior could be enough to doom him come next January.
What is the stuff about Daboll’s “workplace behavior?”
Can you please stop being dumb? It's fine if you think multiple reporters are simply carrying the water for two unemployed former Giant coaches (and fabricating sources still working in the building), but can you please not waste time pretending like your opinion of these reports is self-evident fact?
I don't doubt Daboll is probably loud and vocal, but so what if assistant coaches eff up(or players)? None of us know what is the real story. I think the fact that neither Wink nor Wilkins were hired probably lends credence to the stories being exaggerated.
BTW, what sources working at MetLife confirmed any part of the narrative? I may have ignored it if it was listed, but I do not remember it.
I guess you missed the NFC title game When Detroit tacklers were bouncing off of 49er receivers when they had them tackled at or near the line of scrimmage
I love this type of stuff. I read some posters who wanted Wilson from the Ravens, who was never a D-Coordinator and were ok with that. But when we hire a coach who was a coordinator, we say he had help.
People always want to complain about something. You can't have it both ways.
I also read that Bowen was under contract with the Titans and they didn't release him until Wilson was hired. That may have been why we waited, but we'll never really know the truth.
Yeah we won the time of possession a lot this year.
BTW, what sources working at MetLife confirmed any part of the narrative? I may have ignored it if it was listed, but I do not remember it.
Both Duggan and Leonard's reporting cited people still working for the team who corroborated what was being said about Daboll's workplace behavior. Now granted, nobody was willing to put their name to it - but my point stands: anyone dismissing these claims as reporters carrying the water for Wink and Wilkins is also effectively asserting that those same reporters are simply fabricating additional sourcing to support their articles.
Anyone who wants to believe that is free to do so, but I don't see anyone willing to explicitly own it. It's all a bunch of hand-waving about disgruntled former employees with axes to grind, while ignoring that, at least on paper, there's a bit more to it than that.
Except Wink's defense was dreadful against the run. And 27th overall.
So much for your time of possession argument.
29th in run defense in 2023.
Teams that can't stop the run are not going to win time of possession battles.
Giants don't have the horses to play from behind on offense.
29th in run defense in 2023.
Teams that can't stop the run are not going to win time of possession battles.
Question about that: Wink had a reputation for his defenses playing well against the run throughout his tenure with Baltimore. Then they weren't good against the run here. How much of that can be chalked up to Wink's defensive schemes, the personnel the Giants had, or other factors at work?
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BTW, what sources working at MetLife confirmed any part of the narrative? I may have ignored it if it was listed, but I do not remember it.
Both Duggan and Leonard's reporting cited people still working for the team who corroborated what was being said about Daboll's workplace behavior. Now granted, nobody was willing to put their name to it - but my point stands: anyone dismissing these claims as reporters carrying the water for Wink and Wilkins is also effectively asserting that those same reporters are simply fabricating additional sourcing to support their articles.
Anyone who wants to believe that is free to do so, but I don't see anyone willing to explicitly own it. It's all a bunch of hand-waving about disgruntled former employees with axes to grind, while ignoring that, at least on paper, there's a bit more to it than that.
I realize I am pissing up a tree, but unnamed sources and "corroborating witnesses" are pretty loose assertions. And reporters ARE notorious for seeking out people that confirm their reporting. And just what positions do those people hold. Are they assistant coaches or are they office secretaries? Are they people that believe raising your voice is one of the seven deadly sins? BTW, when has Leonard ever been considered a reliable and trustworthy beat writer - Duggan, yes, is one of the better reporters.
Again, I believe that Daboll probably is crusty when he is pissed off. But so are many football coaches. Frankly, I think TC may have been one of the worst offenders. And it nearly cost him.
FWIW, my own wife says I am yelling at her, when in fact my voice is not raised but my tone is assertive, not elevated. (nature of the beast for an old sea captain.)
So I do think it is likely hyperbole mixed with truth.
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In comment 16390659 section125 said:
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BTW, what sources working at MetLife confirmed any part of the narrative? I may have ignored it if it was listed, but I do not remember it.
Both Duggan and Leonard's reporting cited people still working for the team who corroborated what was being said about Daboll's workplace behavior. Now granted, nobody was willing to put their name to it - but my point stands: anyone dismissing these claims as reporters carrying the water for Wink and Wilkins is also effectively asserting that those same reporters are simply fabricating additional sourcing to support their articles.
Anyone who wants to believe that is free to do so, but I don't see anyone willing to explicitly own it. It's all a bunch of hand-waving about disgruntled former employees with axes to grind, while ignoring that, at least on paper, there's a bit more to it than that.
I realize I am pissing up a tree, but unnamed sources and "corroborating witnesses" are pretty loose assertions. And reporters ARE notorious for seeking out people that confirm their reporting. And just what positions do those people hold. Are they assistant coaches or are they office secretaries? Are they people that believe raising your voice is one of the seven deadly sins? BTW, when has Leonard ever been considered a reliable and trustworthy beat writer - Duggan, yes, is one of the better reporters.
Again, I believe that Daboll probably is crusty when he is pissed off. But so are many football coaches. Frankly, I think TC may have been one of the worst offenders. And it nearly cost him.
FWIW, my own wife says I am yelling at her, when in fact my voice is not raised but my tone is assertive, not elevated. (nature of the beast for an old sea captain.)
So I do think it is likely hyperbole mixed with truth.
The fact that the poster you are responding to even gives Leonard the least little bit of credibility on his “reporting” is comical
There is a reason why Leonard was literally THROWN off the Rangers beat….
For making things up and using the same corroborated sources BS….
He is a disgrace
And fyi….Duggan was also thrown off the Rutgers beat as well….neither one of those guys in my opinion has any credibility
We should note that Ryan Cowden (our Executive advisor to the general manager) was withe Titans front office 2016 to 2022.
[ul]
[li]Director of player personnel (2016–2017)
[li]Vice president of player personnel (2018–2022)
[li]Interim general manager
[/ul]
Joe Schoen, Brian Daboll etc will have a very detailed understanding of what Shane Bowen brings to NYG, including his schemes, teaching approach, how he works with other coaches etc.
I believe that Daboll wants to keep most of the defensive coaching staff (as he should imho). How Bowen interacts with them will be important.
It may not be a 'big name' hire but that doesn't mean he isn't a really good fit for this team.
Breaking down Titans' Defensive Coordinator, Shane Bowen - ( New Window )
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In comment 16390699 BlackLight said:
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In comment 16390659 section125 said:
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BTW, what sources working at MetLife confirmed any part of the narrative? I may have ignored it if it was listed, but I do not remember it.
Both Duggan and Leonard's reporting cited people still working for the team who corroborated what was being said about Daboll's workplace behavior. Now granted, nobody was willing to put their name to it - but my point stands: anyone dismissing these claims as reporters carrying the water for Wink and Wilkins is also effectively asserting that those same reporters are simply fabricating additional sourcing to support their articles.
Anyone who wants to believe that is free to do so, but I don't see anyone willing to explicitly own it. It's all a bunch of hand-waving about disgruntled former employees with axes to grind, while ignoring that, at least on paper, there's a bit more to it than that.
I realize I am pissing up a tree, but unnamed sources and "corroborating witnesses" are pretty loose assertions. And reporters ARE notorious for seeking out people that confirm their reporting. And just what positions do those people hold. Are they assistant coaches or are they office secretaries? Are they people that believe raising your voice is one of the seven deadly sins? BTW, when has Leonard ever been considered a reliable and trustworthy beat writer - Duggan, yes, is one of the better reporters.
Again, I believe that Daboll probably is crusty when he is pissed off. But so are many football coaches. Frankly, I think TC may have been one of the worst offenders. And it nearly cost him.
FWIW, my own wife says I am yelling at her, when in fact my voice is not raised but my tone is assertive, not elevated. (nature of the beast for an old sea captain.)
So I do think it is likely hyperbole mixed with truth.
The fact that the poster you are responding to even gives Leonard the least little bit of credibility on his “reporting” is comical
There is a reason why Leonard was literally THROWN off the Rangers beat….
For making things up and using the same corroborated sources BS….
He is a disgrace
And fyi….Duggan was also thrown off the Rutgers beat as well….neither one of those guys in my opinion has any credibility
Its amazing they are still allowed to be employed after shit like that. If I lied to one of our clients or misled them in any way, there is a decent chance I don't even get written up or even talked to harshly, I would be told its not working out and be let go. Free of explanation.
Having a writer bring absolutely nothing concrete and pissing off two sets of teams and their fan bases is an awfully long leash. There are plenty of writers who just want a chance and will do the job well.
As a DC no. He was OLB coach starting in '18 when adoree was in his 2nd year. He became DC the year AJ signed with us in '21
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In comment 16390731 section125 said:
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In comment 16390699 BlackLight said:
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In comment 16390659 section125 said:
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BTW, what sources working at MetLife confirmed any part of the narrative? I may have ignored it if it was listed, but I do not remember it.
Both Duggan and Leonard's reporting cited people still working for the team who corroborated what was being said about Daboll's workplace behavior. Now granted, nobody was willing to put their name to it - but my point stands: anyone dismissing these claims as reporters carrying the water for Wink and Wilkins is also effectively asserting that those same reporters are simply fabricating additional sourcing to support their articles.
Anyone who wants to believe that is free to do so, but I don't see anyone willing to explicitly own it. It's all a bunch of hand-waving about disgruntled former employees with axes to grind, while ignoring that, at least on paper, there's a bit more to it than that.
I realize I am pissing up a tree, but unnamed sources and "corroborating witnesses" are pretty loose assertions. And reporters ARE notorious for seeking out people that confirm their reporting. And just what positions do those people hold. Are they assistant coaches or are they office secretaries? Are they people that believe raising your voice is one of the seven deadly sins? BTW, when has Leonard ever been considered a reliable and trustworthy beat writer - Duggan, yes, is one of the better reporters.
Again, I believe that Daboll probably is crusty when he is pissed off. But so are many football coaches. Frankly, I think TC may have been one of the worst offenders. And it nearly cost him.
FWIW, my own wife says I am yelling at her, when in fact my voice is not raised but my tone is assertive, not elevated. (nature of the beast for an old sea captain.)
So I do think it is likely hyperbole mixed with truth.
The fact that the poster you are responding to even gives Leonard the least little bit of credibility on his “reporting” is comical
There is a reason why Leonard was literally THROWN off the Rangers beat….
For making things up and using the same corroborated sources BS….
He is a disgrace
And fyi….Duggan was also thrown off the Rutgers beat as well….neither one of those guys in my opinion has any credibility
Its amazing they are still allowed to be employed after shit like that. If I lied to one of our clients or misled them in any way, there is a decent chance I don't even get written up or even talked to harshly, I would be told its not working out and be let go. Free of explanation.
Having a writer bring absolutely nothing concrete and pissing off two sets of teams and their fan bases is an awfully long leash. There are plenty of writers who just want a chance and will do the job well.