I know McCarthy is a bit of a lightning rod on here with plenty of detractors, but you can't question his arm strength and ability to throw the ball off platform. McCarthy making plays - ( New Window )
I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
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McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
Wow. You should probably let some NFL front offices know you've found the secret to rating QBs since processing ability has to be one of the most important abilities a QB can possess, if not the absolute most important. Surely eliminating guys who can't process the field would go a long way to drafting that special QB we all want.
Also, I would argue that most QBs who flame out of the NFL fail because of intangibles. Not too many guys with noodle arms are getting drafted, but every year we see guys with howitzers who can fly on the field flame out at QB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
Quote:
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
Wow. You should probably let some NFL front offices know you've found the secret to rating QBs since processing ability has to be one of the most important abilities a QB can possess, if not the absolute most important. Surely eliminating guys who can't process the field would go a long way to drafting that special QB we all want.
Also, I would argue that most QBs who flame out of the NFL fail because of intangibles. Not too many guys with noodle arms are getting drafted, but every year we see guys with howitzers who can fly on the field flame out at QB.
I think you should reread my post. I didn't say processing is unimportant, actually quite the opposite. I said it's a basic trait of the position, in my view, not an intangible.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
I will say that the QB position is unique in the sense that items that would be “intangibles” at other positions are important at QB. If you are doing well or doing poorly the media will flock to the QB. You listen to Mahomes he will never take the credit when they are doing well and when they are slumping it isn’t his WR’s fault for dropping the ball or lining up offsides, it is his (Mahomes’s) fault for not lining them up correctly, not throwing a more catchable ball, etc. Even when talking about the opponent he never gives bulletin board material.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
My personal opinion, and others can differ, is that there is a certain level of intangibles a QB needs to be successful. It is a yes or no question and if the answer is no they should not be on your board as a Day 1 or 2 guy regardless of physical attributes. If the answer is yes whether they barely make the threshold or are off the board high does not matter so long as they meet that threshold.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
I will say that the QB position is unique in the sense that items that would be “intangibles” at other positions are important at QB. If you are doing well or doing poorly the media will flock to the QB. You listen to Mahomes he will never take the credit when they are doing well and when they are slumping it isn’t his WR’s fault for dropping the ball or lining up offsides, it is his (Mahomes’s) fault for not lining them up correctly, not throwing a more catchable ball, etc. Even when talking about the opponent he never gives bulletin board material.
Mahomes is incredible. He seems like a great dude in top of being a great player. But what about a guy like Rodgers, who seems like a giant asshole, yet he's great on the field and players love him and he seems to be a good football leader. I'm not saying intangibles aren't important but they are hard to define, hard to measure, and don't seem to be a prerequisite for greatness. Lots of good dudes with excellent intangibles, who aren't any good at football.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
Okay. You are certainly a big McCarthy fan. Would to take him first if you were the Bears?
Just some additional comments to what you wrote:
Throwing the ball far doesn't equal arm talent. If I have to explain the differences, then we have to start from scratch.
Yeah, reading that linebacker and safety on those RPOs is PhD stuff at the college-level.
Being a winner, tough and playing hurt doesn't really move the needle for me as great separators vis-a-vis other QBs.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
I will say that the QB position is unique in the sense that items that would be “intangibles” at other positions are important at QB. If you are doing well or doing poorly the media will flock to the QB. You listen to Mahomes he will never take the credit when they are doing well and when they are slumping it isn’t his WR’s fault for dropping the ball or lining up offsides, it is his (Mahomes’s) fault for not lining them up correctly, not throwing a more catchable ball, etc. Even when talking about the opponent he never gives bulletin board material.
Mahomes is incredible. He seems like a great dude in top of being a great player. But what about a guy like Rodgers, who seems like a giant asshole, yet he's great on the field and players love him and he seems to be a good football leader. I'm not saying intangibles aren't important but they are hard to define, hard to measure, and don't seem to be a prerequisite for greatness. Lots of good dudes with excellent intangibles, who aren't any good at football.
Because people overrate intangibles. As I said in my prior post responding to bw, if they meet the threshold of intangibles needed to be a successful QB I do not believe any incremental increase will result in better play if it is coming at the expense of tangible tools.
That throw is about the limits of Williams's arm.
I am not saying that Williams does not have a strong arm.
McCarthy's arm is as strong if not stronger. The throws that I posted were from high school.
McCarthy was known by all of the high school scouts that he and Milton had the strongest arms. They also had the greatest velocity on their throws.
They would line up at the 20 and take turns throwing the ball threw the uprights.
Remember this is when McCarthy was 180 lbs and still growing.
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I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
Okay. You are certainly a big McCarthy fan. Would to take him first if you were the Bears?
Just some additional comments to what you wrote:
Throwing the ball far doesn't equal arm talent. If I have to explain the differences, then we have to start from scratch.
Yeah, reading that linebacker and safety on those RPOs is PhD stuff at the college-level.
Being a winner, tough and playing hurt doesn't really move the needle for me as great separators vis-a-vis other QBs.
Just looking at college record doesn’t move the needle to me. However, a QB has to want to finish each NFL season 20-0. Otherwise you get a Jameis Winston who likes to pad his stats but really doesn’t look like he cares if it translates to wins on the field so long as he is getting paid.
That throw is about the limits of Williams's arm.
I am not saying that Williams does not have a strong arm.
McCarthy's arm is as strong if not stronger. The throws that I posted were from high school.
McCarthy was known by all of the high school scouts that he and Milton had the strongest arms. They also had the greatest velocity on their throws.
They would line up at the 20 and take turns throwing the ball threw the uprights.
Remember this is when McCarthy was 180 lbs and still growing.
Quote:
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
Since we are just making stuff up...
Spencer Rattler is so fast he can run back in time
Spencer Rattler once threw a ball through a tank
Spencer Rattler built a functional nuclear reactor when he was 7
Spencer Rattler eliminated childhood poverty through the sheer force of his will
Just looking at college record doesn’t move the needle to me. However, a QB has to want to finish each NFL season 20-0. Otherwise you get a Jameis Winston who likes to pad his stats but really doesn’t look like he cares if it translates to wins on the field so long as he is getting paid.
Again, I'm not underestimating that it's important to get under the head of prospect's mind. That certainly has value.
But so many of these kids these days are very well trained/rehearsed to know what to say in the interview process. Their agents/agencies want to make sure that box is checked...
Even so, until you are with a person day after day, week after week, month after month - you get the point - there really is no way to fully know what you are getting as a person. That is a very hard thing to project, especially going from programs that win in college to an NFL team that is at rock bottom.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
Okay. You are certainly a big McCarthy fan. Would to take him first if you were the Bears?
Just some additional comments to what you wrote:
Throwing the ball far doesn't equal arm talent. If I have to explain the differences, then we have to start from scratch.
Yeah, reading that linebacker and safety on those RPOs is PhD stuff at the college-level.
Being a winner, tough and playing hurt doesn't really move the needle for me as great separators vis-a-vis other QBs.
Everyone agrees on the top 3 QBs are going 1,2,3 in the draft. He's going to be the 4th QB picked, and look at the draft order.
All of these teams need a young QB and could get him, and don't forget the 5th year option they get if he's drafted in the 1st round. He's 21 years old. The 5th year option is huge for such a young QB with his tool set.
Daniel is a far superior runner and much quicker than McCarthy.
Daniels may time better at the combine but his best recorded time in the 40 is 4.50
McCarthy has been timed at 4.48
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"ahead of his first start for Michigan last season, McCarthy was consistently timed between 4.5 and 4.4 seconds. Oct 15, 2023 "
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McCarthy said that he’s improved his 40-yard dash from being in the 4.8s and now believes he is in the 4.4s or 4.5s. McCarthy credits strength and conditioning coach Ben Herbert with getting his speed down, and co-offensive coordinator/quarterbacks coach Matt Weiss with helping him become a more dangerous runner.
Or if he is there at #5, and Harbaugh knows him well, should the Chargers take him, trade Herbert for a ton of assets, and reset on the rookie contract?
Nix, Penix, and McCarthy are all second tier prospects that can be above average in Daboll’s scheme and an upgrade over Jones. I don’t want any of them at 6, but I won’t be upset if they could get any of them at the end of round 1. I just think all 6 QBs will go in the top 20. There’s too many teams that need a QB right now.
Everyone agrees on the top 3 QBs are going 1,2,3 in the draft. He's going to be the 4th QB picked, and look at the draft order.
All of these teams need a young QB and could get him, and don't forget the 5th year option they get if he's drafted in the 1st round. He's 21 years old. The 5th year option is huge for such a young QB with his tool set.
I could see McCarthy being in the running for the 4th spot.
The age is a factor to a degree. Raw talent matters more to me. But I get your point. Fashanu has the same age "advantage" for LT.
he's the real deal in the NFL, why on earth would you trade him? Top prospects often fail in the transition to the NFL, so why take the risk?
Either draft a top prospect at a position of need (now, or next year), or trade the draft slot for a ton of picks.
Harbaugh not drafting JJM would not be indicative of confidence level of JJM in the NFL. IF Harbaugh needs a QB and passes on JJM, then there's a conversation to be had.
he's the real deal in the NFL, why on earth would you trade him? Top prospects often fail in the transition to the NFL, so why take the risk?
Either draft a top prospect at a position of need (now, or next year), or trade the draft slot for a ton of picks.
Harbaugh not drafting JJM would not be indicative of confidence level of JJM in the NFL. IF Harbaugh needs a QB and passes on JJM, then there's a conversation to be had.
I was/am trying to get a feel for just how highly Archer views McCarthy.
I absolutely wouldn't waste a second thinking about trading Herbert to reset with McCarthy.
That throw is about the limits of Williams's arm.
I am not saying that Williams does not have a strong arm.
McCarthy's arm is as strong if not stronger. The throws that I posted were from high school.
McCarthy was known by all of the high school scouts that he and Milton had the strongest arms. They also had the greatest velocity on their throws.
They would line up at the 20 and take turns throwing the ball threw the uprights.
Remember this is when McCarthy was 180 lbs and still growing.
Quote:
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
A 7 step run up and jump will give you more distance than a typical step into a throw. That's just physics.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
I have heard you mention that on a podcast before. You were with a guy who was a huge Michigan fan and he was drooling over McCarthy. Despite that, I don't recall you having a high grade on McCarthy during that show.
If you have had a change of mind, I look forward to you having him #1 on your board.
I hadn't studied McCarthy in depth when it came to film study at that point. I thought there was a shot he would go back to school.
He has since moved up.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
Interesting. Ourlads has him at #45 in the mock draft. Does your view of him diverge from the rest of them there, or do they just feel he will go that low?
Stats vs. pressure and quick processing would be key traits for Schoen and Daboll one would think. I like Nabers and some of the edges, but my gut tells me it's JJ.
That mock was pre-McCarthy film study and yes, I have to somewhat tailor the Ourlads Mock to the staff rankings.
There is film of him doing everything other QBs have to do, just less of it due to his situation. He's a massively intriguing wild card. But I can assure you, any team in need of a QB will do their homework. An analyst I know has him as QB 4. What is not clear to me is if he is closer to 3 or closer to 5. That's the question.
I will say this though --it is telling that JJ has elected to come out after three seasons compared to the four or five of Penix, Daniels, and Nix.
pretty late in the process? Maybe I am not remembering properly but I feel like he was initially considered a later 1st round pick and then had a steady rise heading toward draft day.
And a 1st round grade on him:
McCarthy has first-round arm talent and can beat defenses with his legs too. He ranked third in the country in Total QBR (89.2) and completion percentage (72.3%) in 2023. Since he took over as the Wolverines' starter in 2022, he threw 44 touchdown passes and nine interceptions. Five of those INTs have come in two games, however; he threw three against Bowling Green earlier in 2023, and he had two pick-sixes in the College Football Playoff semifinal loss to TCU last season. Outside of those two games, he has managed games effectively and made great decisions with the football.
I recently projected McCarthy in the middle of Round 1 in my debut mock draft, and I think he will put up great testing numbers at the combine. Sure, he averaged just 22.1 pass attempts per game in 2023 and only needed to complete 10 passes in the national title game, but his upside is immense.
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
All true, however there is one thing I have not read about JJ that I also know is true, his teammates all love him! Even when he was in HS he became Michigan’s lead recruiter having other guys join him. That’s something that should not be overlooked.
"Tom Brady is the the greatest football player of all time. He’s lapped the field. He’s lapped the field a full lap. J.J. has a long way to go to get to that. But in terms of who I think is the best college quarterback in the 144-year history of Michigan football, I’m nominating J.J. McCarthy. I’m not the maker of that list, but that’s my opinion."
No endorsement on my part. Just reporting what the coach said.
I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
Quote:
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions. Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
Thar was 60 yards from the 25 to the 15, here is a 55 yard howitzer from JJ Link - ( New Window )
I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
Quote:
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions. Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
On this throw he goes 40 yards deep and 40 yards across the field making it at least 55 yards and on a line the kid can throw with the best of them and he can definitely put on 20-30lbs as his body is still growing just turned 21: Link - ( New Window )
I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
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McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions. Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
Thar was 60 yards from the 25 to the 15, here is a 55 yard howitzer from JJ Link - ( New Window )
The throw was from the 16. I think it is telling that you are comparing a 50 yard throw to a 65 yard throw. You're basically admitting my point. McCarthy doesn't have any throws that big on tape.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
I think you should reread my post. I didn't say processing is unimportant, actually quite the opposite. I said it's a basic trait of the position, in my view, not an intangible.
We agree on the importance of processing speed and ability and I completely understood your post. At this point I'm just pretty sure you don't know what the terms "tangible" and "intangible" actually mean. It has nothing to do with how vital an ability is to performing the position, but how well that ability can be measured. Things like arm strength, running speed, agility, height, weight, etc are all tangible qualities. They can be accurately measured and quantified. They are tangible.
Things like leadership ability, work ethic, having a "will to win", and, I would argue things like the ability to sense pressure or process the field are much harder to measure directly. They are essentially unquantifiable. Intangible.
A QB's coaches with full knowledge of their offensive system and the read progressions can watch plays and tell you how well and quickly a player can generally process the field, but not a single person sitting on the couch watching TV or even pouring over hours of Youtube videos or All 22 film will know with 100% certainty a lot of the information needed to try to quantify processing ability. You can maybe come up with an educated guess, and sometimes it might be obvious if a QB is consistently missing open guys like Jones seems to, but it's still not a really measurable data point.
The S2 test may be a breakthrough in that area, but I think we'll need to see exactly how applicable it is to football specifically and playing QB even more specifically. I don't think the body of data is there yet to say definitively one way or the other how accurate an assessment it is, but hopefully we'll know soon enough.
Whoever drafts him is going to need a good system and patience. He’s just now turning 21 years old. He will need to sit and learn the pro game, and wait his time. He has talent, but doesn’t have a ton experience. I like the fact that he progress every season at Michigan. That bodes well for his future.
Whoever drafts him is going to need a good system and patience. He’s just now turning 21 years old. He will need to sit and learn the pro game, and wait his time. He has talent, but doesn’t have a ton experience. I like the fact that he progress every season at Michigan. That bodes well for his future.
evergreen comment for just about any rookie qb. can/could have said the same about lawrence, tua, bryce young, hurts, lamar, josh allen, mahomes, fields, etc.
herbert may be the only who looks to have been so traditionally talented that he stood out despite the situation, but not unlike mccarthy was held back in college by the system he played in (cristobal's wet dream is ironically the UM offense).
Btw, glad to see Manhattan make the Anthony Richardson analogy. Not about the style of play but how pro scouts saw an entirely different player from what fans saw. I bet McCarthy goes in the top 7. This is good for the Giants.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
Sure. I guess I just think most of the guys even up for debate have relatively similar physical skills. Obviously there are outliers and you want the Herbert/Allen/Mahomes type of unicorn if you can get him. I just doubt there's really that huge a spread.
For argument's sake, I just browsed the list of NFL Combine Throw velocities of the last 10 years. The slowest I found was Deshaun Watson at 45 (tied withsomeone I never heard of in the same class). Josh Allen (and Dorian Thomson-Robinson) at 62. Much larger than I would have guessed. Most QBs (including Mahomes at 55mph) measure in the mid to high 50s. That's just one small measurable, but it would appear as long as you're in the neighborhood of 55mph, you should be golden.
I think once you get to that baseline physical talent, it's the intangibles that set most of the great QBs apart from the benchwarmers.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
Sure. I guess I just think most of the guys even up for debate have relatively similar physical skills. Obviously there are outliers and you want the Herbert/Allen/Mahomes type of unicorn if you can get him. I just doubt there's really that huge a spread.
For argument's sake, I just browsed the list of NFL Combine Throw velocities of the last 10 years. The slowest I found was Deshaun Watson at 45 (tied withsomeone I never heard of in the same class). Josh Allen (and Dorian Thomson-Robinson) at 62. Much larger than I would have guessed. Most QBs (including Mahomes at 55mph) measure in the mid to high 50s. That's just one small measurable, but it would appear as long as you're in the neighborhood of 55mph, you should be golden.
I think once you get to that baseline physical talent, it's the intangibles that set most of the great QBs apart from the benchwarmers.
Agreed, you'd think NFL front offices would be using high tech simulators to analyze in game processing speed. It wouldn't be as accurate as real in game processing with real 250-350lb guys in your face, but I'd imagine it would provide some better Intel.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research.
Link - ( New Window )
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
Wow. You should probably let some NFL front offices know you've found the secret to rating QBs since processing ability has to be one of the most important abilities a QB can possess, if not the absolute most important. Surely eliminating guys who can't process the field would go a long way to drafting that special QB we all want.
Also, I would argue that most QBs who flame out of the NFL fail because of intangibles. Not too many guys with noodle arms are getting drafted, but every year we see guys with howitzers who can fly on the field flame out at QB.
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In comment 16394274 Manhattan said:
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Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
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McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
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I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
Wow. You should probably let some NFL front offices know you've found the secret to rating QBs since processing ability has to be one of the most important abilities a QB can possess, if not the absolute most important. Surely eliminating guys who can't process the field would go a long way to drafting that special QB we all want.
Also, I would argue that most QBs who flame out of the NFL fail because of intangibles. Not too many guys with noodle arms are getting drafted, but every year we see guys with howitzers who can fly on the field flame out at QB.
I think you should reread my post. I didn't say processing is unimportant, actually quite the opposite. I said it's a basic trait of the position, in my view, not an intangible.
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In comment 16394283 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
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In comment 16394274 Manhattan said:
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Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
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In comment 16394288 Manhattan said:
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In comment 16394283 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
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In comment 16394274 Manhattan said:
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Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
I will say that the QB position is unique in the sense that items that would be “intangibles” at other positions are important at QB. If you are doing well or doing poorly the media will flock to the QB. You listen to Mahomes he will never take the credit when they are doing well and when they are slumping it isn’t his WR’s fault for dropping the ball or lining up offsides, it is his (Mahomes’s) fault for not lining them up correctly, not throwing a more catchable ball, etc. Even when talking about the opponent he never gives bulletin board material.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
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On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
My personal opinion, and others can differ, is that there is a certain level of intangibles a QB needs to be successful. It is a yes or no question and if the answer is no they should not be on your board as a Day 1 or 2 guy regardless of physical attributes. If the answer is yes whether they barely make the threshold or are off the board high does not matter so long as they meet that threshold.
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In comment 16394306 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16394288 Manhattan said:
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In comment 16394283 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
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In comment 16394274 Manhattan said:
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Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
I will say that the QB position is unique in the sense that items that would be “intangibles” at other positions are important at QB. If you are doing well or doing poorly the media will flock to the QB. You listen to Mahomes he will never take the credit when they are doing well and when they are slumping it isn’t his WR’s fault for dropping the ball or lining up offsides, it is his (Mahomes’s) fault for not lining them up correctly, not throwing a more catchable ball, etc. Even when talking about the opponent he never gives bulletin board material.
Mahomes is incredible. He seems like a great dude in top of being a great player. But what about a guy like Rodgers, who seems like a giant asshole, yet he's great on the field and players love him and he seems to be a good football leader. I'm not saying intangibles aren't important but they are hard to define, hard to measure, and don't seem to be a prerequisite for greatness. Lots of good dudes with excellent intangibles, who aren't any good at football.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
Okay. You are certainly a big McCarthy fan. Would to take him first if you were the Bears?
Just some additional comments to what you wrote:
Throwing the ball far doesn't equal arm talent. If I have to explain the differences, then we have to start from scratch.
Yeah, reading that linebacker and safety on those RPOs is PhD stuff at the college-level.
Being a winner, tough and playing hurt doesn't really move the needle for me as great separators vis-a-vis other QBs.
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In comment 16394310 Manhattan said:
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In comment 16394306 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16394288 Manhattan said:
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In comment 16394283 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
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In comment 16394274 Manhattan said:
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Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
I will say that the QB position is unique in the sense that items that would be “intangibles” at other positions are important at QB. If you are doing well or doing poorly the media will flock to the QB. You listen to Mahomes he will never take the credit when they are doing well and when they are slumping it isn’t his WR’s fault for dropping the ball or lining up offsides, it is his (Mahomes’s) fault for not lining them up correctly, not throwing a more catchable ball, etc. Even when talking about the opponent he never gives bulletin board material.
Mahomes is incredible. He seems like a great dude in top of being a great player. But what about a guy like Rodgers, who seems like a giant asshole, yet he's great on the field and players love him and he seems to be a good football leader. I'm not saying intangibles aren't important but they are hard to define, hard to measure, and don't seem to be a prerequisite for greatness. Lots of good dudes with excellent intangibles, who aren't any good at football.
Because people overrate intangibles. As I said in my prior post responding to bw, if they meet the threshold of intangibles needed to be a successful QB I do not believe any incremental increase will result in better play if it is coming at the expense of tangible tools.
I am not saying that Williams does not have a strong arm.
McCarthy's arm is as strong if not stronger. The throws that I posted were from high school.
McCarthy was known by all of the high school scouts that he and Milton had the strongest arms. They also had the greatest velocity on their throws.
They would line up at the 20 and take turns throwing the ball threw the uprights.
Remember this is when McCarthy was 180 lbs and still growing.
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
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McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
Okay. You are certainly a big McCarthy fan. Would to take him first if you were the Bears?
Just some additional comments to what you wrote:
Throwing the ball far doesn't equal arm talent. If I have to explain the differences, then we have to start from scratch.
Yeah, reading that linebacker and safety on those RPOs is PhD stuff at the college-level.
Being a winner, tough and playing hurt doesn't really move the needle for me as great separators vis-a-vis other QBs.
Just looking at college record doesn’t move the needle to me. However, a QB has to want to finish each NFL season 20-0. Otherwise you get a Jameis Winston who likes to pad his stats but really doesn’t look like he cares if it translates to wins on the field so long as he is getting paid.
I am not saying that Williams does not have a strong arm.
McCarthy's arm is as strong if not stronger. The throws that I posted were from high school.
McCarthy was known by all of the high school scouts that he and Milton had the strongest arms. They also had the greatest velocity on their throws.
They would line up at the 20 and take turns throwing the ball threw the uprights.
Remember this is when McCarthy was 180 lbs and still growing.
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I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
Since we are just making stuff up...
Spencer Rattler is so fast he can run back in time
Spencer Rattler once threw a ball through a tank
Spencer Rattler built a functional nuclear reactor when he was 7
Spencer Rattler eliminated childhood poverty through the sheer force of his will
I'd go Rattler before I go McCarthy.
Just looking at college record doesn’t move the needle to me. However, a QB has to want to finish each NFL season 20-0. Otherwise you get a Jameis Winston who likes to pad his stats but really doesn’t look like he cares if it translates to wins on the field so long as he is getting paid.
Again, I'm not underestimating that it's important to get under the head of prospect's mind. That certainly has value.
But so many of these kids these days are very well trained/rehearsed to know what to say in the interview process. Their agents/agencies want to make sure that box is checked...
Even so, until you are with a person day after day, week after week, month after month - you get the point - there really is no way to fully know what you are getting as a person. That is a very hard thing to project, especially going from programs that win in college to an NFL team that is at rock bottom.
Knowing game processing is part of the position is different from being able to measure it.
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McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
Okay. You are certainly a big McCarthy fan. Would to take him first if you were the Bears?
Just some additional comments to what you wrote:
Throwing the ball far doesn't equal arm talent. If I have to explain the differences, then we have to start from scratch.
Yeah, reading that linebacker and safety on those RPOs is PhD stuff at the college-level.
Being a winner, tough and playing hurt doesn't really move the needle for me as great separators vis-a-vis other QBs.
Everyone agrees on the top 3 QBs are going 1,2,3 in the draft. He's going to be the 4th QB picked, and look at the draft order.
All of these teams need a young QB and could get him, and don't forget the 5th year option they get if he's drafted in the 1st round. He's 21 years old. The 5th year option is huge for such a young QB with his tool set.
8 - Atlanta
10 - NY Jets
11 - Minnesota
12 - Denver
13 - Las Vegas
14 - New Orleans
16 - Seattle
Daniels may time better at the combine but his best recorded time in the 40 is 4.50
McCarthy has been timed at 4.48
"ahead of his first start for Michigan last season, McCarthy was consistently timed between 4.5 and 4.4 seconds. Oct 15, 2023 "
McCarthy said that he’s improved his 40-yard dash from being in the 4.8s and now believes he is in the 4.4s or 4.5s. McCarthy credits strength and conditioning coach Ben Herbert with getting his speed down, and co-offensive coordinator/quarterbacks coach Matt Weiss with helping him become a more dangerous runner.
Should McCarthy go #1 to the Bears?
Or if he is there at #5, and Harbaugh knows him well, should the Chargers take him, trade Herbert for a ton of assets, and reset on the rookie contract?
Everyone agrees on the top 3 QBs are going 1,2,3 in the draft. He's going to be the 4th QB picked, and look at the draft order.
All of these teams need a young QB and could get him, and don't forget the 5th year option they get if he's drafted in the 1st round. He's 21 years old. The 5th year option is huge for such a young QB with his tool set.
I could see McCarthy being in the running for the 4th spot.
The age is a factor to a degree. Raw talent matters more to me. But I get your point. Fashanu has the same age "advantage" for LT.
Either draft a top prospect at a position of need (now, or next year), or trade the draft slot for a ton of picks.
Harbaugh not drafting JJM would not be indicative of confidence level of JJM in the NFL. IF Harbaugh needs a QB and passes on JJM, then there's a conversation to be had.
I dislike it when people make uninformed assessments of players.
My comments are responding to misinformation that has been bandied on the site.
It is not accurate to say that McCarthy is not a great athlete. You can criticize for many things but there is empirical data that cannot be refuted.
I do not know what makes a great QB. Many subjective elements cannot be quantified.
Either draft a top prospect at a position of need (now, or next year), or trade the draft slot for a ton of picks.
Harbaugh not drafting JJM would not be indicative of confidence level of JJM in the NFL. IF Harbaugh needs a QB and passes on JJM, then there's a conversation to be had.
I was/am trying to get a feel for just how highly Archer views McCarthy.
I absolutely wouldn't waste a second thinking about trading Herbert to reset with McCarthy.
I am - thanks.
I am not saying that Williams does not have a strong arm.
McCarthy's arm is as strong if not stronger. The throws that I posted were from high school.
McCarthy was known by all of the high school scouts that he and Milton had the strongest arms. They also had the greatest velocity on their throws.
They would line up at the 20 and take turns throwing the ball threw the uprights.
Remember this is when McCarthy was 180 lbs and still growing.
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I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
A 7 step run up and jump will give you more distance than a typical step into a throw. That's just physics.
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You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
I have heard you mention that on a podcast before. You were with a guy who was a huge Michigan fan and he was drooling over McCarthy. Despite that, I don't recall you having a high grade on McCarthy during that show.
If you have had a change of mind, I look forward to you having him #1 on your board.
I hadn't studied McCarthy in depth when it came to film study at that point. I thought there was a shot he would go back to school.
He has since moved up.
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In comment 16394093 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16394071 Sy'56 said:
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and it shows
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
Interesting. Ourlads has him at #45 in the mock draft. Does your view of him diverge from the rest of them there, or do they just feel he will go that low?
Stats vs. pressure and quick processing would be key traits for Schoen and Daboll one would think. I like Nabers and some of the edges, but my gut tells me it's JJ.
That mock was pre-McCarthy film study and yes, I have to somewhat tailor the Ourlads Mock to the staff rankings.
To my eye McCarthy doesn't look like he trusts what he's seeing, and is slow to deliver the ball as a result. Sounds like you've seen otherwise?
I will say this though --it is telling that JJ has elected to come out after three seasons compared to the four or five of Penix, Daniels, and Nix.
McCarthy has first-round arm talent and can beat defenses with his legs too. He ranked third in the country in Total QBR (89.2) and completion percentage (72.3%) in 2023. Since he took over as the Wolverines' starter in 2022, he threw 44 touchdown passes and nine interceptions. Five of those INTs have come in two games, however; he threw three against Bowling Green earlier in 2023, and he had two pick-sixes in the College Football Playoff semifinal loss to TCU last season. Outside of those two games, he has managed games effectively and made great decisions with the football.
I recently projected McCarthy in the middle of Round 1 in my debut mock draft, and I think he will put up great testing numbers at the combine. Sure, he averaged just 22.1 pass attempts per game in 2023 and only needed to complete 10 passes in the national title game, but his upside is immense.
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I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
All true, however there is one thing I have not read about JJ that I also know is true, his teammates all love him! Even when he was in HS he became Michigan’s lead recruiter having other guys join him. That’s something that should not be overlooked.
No endorsement on my part. Just reporting what the coach said.
Better than Brady? Jim Harbaugh's praise for JJ McCarthy might not be hyperbole - ( New Window )
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I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
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McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions. Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
Thar was 60 yards from the 25 to the 15, here is a 55 yard howitzer from JJ
Link - ( New Window )
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I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
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McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions. Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
On this throw he goes 40 yards deep and 40 yards across the field making it at least 55 yards and on a line the kid can throw with the best of them and he can definitely put on 20-30lbs as his body is still growing just turned 21:
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 16394295 Archer said:
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I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
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McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions. Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
Thar was 60 yards from the 25 to the 15, here is a 55 yard howitzer from JJ Link - ( New Window )
The throw was from the 16. I think it is telling that you are comparing a 50 yard throw to a 65 yard throw. You're basically admitting my point. McCarthy doesn't have any throws that big on tape.
I think you should reread my post. I didn't say processing is unimportant, actually quite the opposite. I said it's a basic trait of the position, in my view, not an intangible.
We agree on the importance of processing speed and ability and I completely understood your post. At this point I'm just pretty sure you don't know what the terms "tangible" and "intangible" actually mean. It has nothing to do with how vital an ability is to performing the position, but how well that ability can be measured. Things like arm strength, running speed, agility, height, weight, etc are all tangible qualities. They can be accurately measured and quantified. They are tangible.
Things like leadership ability, work ethic, having a "will to win", and, I would argue things like the ability to sense pressure or process the field are much harder to measure directly. They are essentially unquantifiable. Intangible.
A QB's coaches with full knowledge of their offensive system and the read progressions can watch plays and tell you how well and quickly a player can generally process the field, but not a single person sitting on the couch watching TV or even pouring over hours of Youtube videos or All 22 film will know with 100% certainty a lot of the information needed to try to quantify processing ability. You can maybe come up with an educated guess, and sometimes it might be obvious if a QB is consistently missing open guys like Jones seems to, but it's still not a really measurable data point.
The S2 test may be a breakthrough in that area, but I think we'll need to see exactly how applicable it is to football specifically and playing QB even more specifically. I don't think the body of data is there yet to say definitively one way or the other how accurate an assessment it is, but hopefully we'll know soon enough.
Knowing game processing is part of the position is different from being able to measure it.
Or this, much more succinctly put post haha
evergreen comment for just about any rookie qb. can/could have said the same about lawrence, tua, bryce young, hurts, lamar, josh allen, mahomes, fields, etc.
herbert may be the only who looks to have been so traditionally talented that he stood out despite the situation, but not unlike mccarthy was held back in college by the system he played in (cristobal's wet dream is ironically the UM offense).
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On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
Sure. I guess I just think most of the guys even up for debate have relatively similar physical skills. Obviously there are outliers and you want the Herbert/Allen/Mahomes type of unicorn if you can get him. I just doubt there's really that huge a spread.
For argument's sake, I just browsed the list of NFL Combine Throw velocities of the last 10 years. The slowest I found was Deshaun Watson at 45 (tied withsomeone I never heard of in the same class). Josh Allen (and Dorian Thomson-Robinson) at 62. Much larger than I would have guessed. Most QBs (including Mahomes at 55mph) measure in the mid to high 50s. That's just one small measurable, but it would appear as long as you're in the neighborhood of 55mph, you should be golden.
I think once you get to that baseline physical talent, it's the intangibles that set most of the great QBs apart from the benchwarmers.
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In comment 16394270 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
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On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
Sure. I guess I just think most of the guys even up for debate have relatively similar physical skills. Obviously there are outliers and you want the Herbert/Allen/Mahomes type of unicorn if you can get him. I just doubt there's really that huge a spread.
For argument's sake, I just browsed the list of NFL Combine Throw velocities of the last 10 years. The slowest I found was Deshaun Watson at 45 (tied withsomeone I never heard of in the same class). Josh Allen (and Dorian Thomson-Robinson) at 62. Much larger than I would have guessed. Most QBs (including Mahomes at 55mph) measure in the mid to high 50s. That's just one small measurable, but it would appear as long as you're in the neighborhood of 55mph, you should be golden.
I think once you get to that baseline physical talent, it's the intangibles that set most of the great QBs apart from the benchwarmers.
Agreed, you'd think NFL front offices would be using high tech simulators to analyze in game processing speed. It wouldn't be as accurate as real in game processing with real 250-350lb guys in your face, but I'd imagine it would provide some better Intel.