I know McCarthy is a bit of a lightning rod on here with plenty of detractors, but you can't question his arm strength and ability to throw the ball off platform. McCarthy making plays - ( New Window )
if the teams Scouts/Front office think he has the potential to be a franchise QB. Draft history clearly demonstrates how difficult it is to hit on a QB.
A QB that should be a late Day 2 pick but will go earlier
But he is the closest to Josh Allen in this class. Could JS and Dabs see it that way.
Wow, Jim. I hadn't heard that comp before. In what ways? Arm talent (which would be awesome)? Accuracy, coming out of college? (which would be less desirable)
But he is the closest to Josh Allen in this class. Could JS and Dabs see it that way.
Could not respectfully disagree more with this. Maye is a 6'4" 230lb highly mobile improviser that can make all the throws. Not taking anything away from McCarthy but he is not Allen's size and i think it's fair to question if his frame could even add that mass.
I personally would rather trade up, pick a QB at 6 or trade down and add picks for next years trade up. Some picks are more of a projection than others and I don't know why we'd sign up for a big time projection with the last one still on the roster.
Pratt is viewed as day 3, I think he goes day 2. McCarthy is everywhere from early second to late first, I think someone takes him high as in 15th or earlier.
6'-3" 210 lbs
McCarthy was a 5-star recruit coming out of high school.
McCarthy may be the fastest of the qbs having run a 4.48 forty.
He may have the strongest arm. Note in the video below that in 2020 he routinely threw the ball 80 yards in his warm-ups.
McCarthy injured his labrum in 2022 but played through the injury. This past year he injured his ankle and played through it. Both injuries impacted his throwing and running.
I have been watching more of McCarthy's games and I am coming away very impressed.
He comes from a pro-style offense where he needs to read and react.
He can run.
He continually extends plays when they break down.
He throws off the platform.
He makes all throws.
He has a great release.
He is accurate.
He can manage a game
He is tough and plays through injuries.
He just turned 21
on so many QB candidates that I will not comment much on McCarthy. He has a strong arm and seems to lack a bit of touch, but can certainly hustle the ball to a position if needed. Super young. Likely that Harbaugh protected him and the team from chances of INTs - well I would too if I had a running game and oline like Michigan has/had. He did make places vs Alabama when he needed to in the semis.
Think I will sit back and watch the QB draft issue as it unfolds.
Michigan. I remember him being a so-so college QB.......
If Schoen sees franchise potential in JJ, he will draft him. If not, we will get to witness his career elsewhere.
Personally, I watched a bunch of Michigan games this year vs. very good teams and he seems to be able to read a defense, not lock on to a receiver, smooth in the pocket, sense danger and if necessary, scramble for a first down.
Pratt is viewed as day 3, I think he goes day 2. McCarthy is everywhere from early second to late first, I think someone takes him high as in 15th or earlier.
Could be even higher than that, especially if he impresses at the combine. Have noticed recent tweets from reporters stating that McCarthy is thought of more highly by scouts as compared to the general public.
I see more of a Mitch Trubisky (adequate size, good not great athlete, average arm).
Actually, he's a great athlete, and he's Cleary got a strong arm. you got 1 out of 3 correct.
There is a lot to like about him and he's intriguing. But he isn't close to having the strongest arm in this class. I've been watching a lot of highlight videos of him and I don't see a particularly strong arm. He gets the ball to where it needs to be. But a lot of his passes just seem to take a long time to get there. I saw many of his "highlights" that would have been INTs in the pros, especially long outs. And his windup sometimes gets long to get extra zip. That will be a concern in the pros.
In all the highlights I've watched I've seen him throw 3 passes between 40 and 45 yards down the field, all were underthrown. I haven't seen him throw a pass more than 45 yards down the field. Maybe that's Michigan's offense.
He's a good runner, with above average speed for a QB, but he's not shifty and quick.
So many here rip Daniels for being 6-4, 210, but McCarthy is 6-3, 202. As I've said with Daniels, if McCarthy ends up a Giant he has a year to add weight and strength. So maybe the Giants are a good place for him.
on so many QB candidates that I will not comment much on McCarthy. He has a strong arm and seems to lack a bit of touch, but can certainly hustle the ball to a position if needed. Super young. Likely that Harbaugh protected him and the team from chances of INTs - well I would too if I had a running game and oline like Michigan has/had. He did make places vs Alabama when he needed to in the semis.
Think I will sit back and watch the QB draft issue as it unfolds.
I agree with, and I think that is fair. The aforementioned comparisons were all about upside, no-one is saying he will be the next so and so, but that he has those attributes.
Not in playing style, but in draft trajectory. Richardson spent his college career getting slammed on BBI but the pro scouts had an entirely different view.
Draft season started with Richardson speculation that he could maybe possibly go in the 1st. Then chatter elevated him in amateur mock drafts to go in the teens. He ended up going 4th and played well last season.
Sy’s also hinted that the top 3 QBs may not be who you think they are. So I think there’s a decent chance he is the Giants 1st pick at 6 this year. It will be really interesting to see how this unfolds.
McCarthy has played injured.
In 2022 he played the entire year with a partially torn labrum. The injury occurred in spring practice and did not heal until after the season.
This year he injured his ankle against Penn State. He could not set his feet, so for 4-5 games he was not asked to throw the ball.
As a high school senior, he and Milton were tested and they were one-two with arm strength, distance, and velocity.
6'-3" 210 lbs
McCarthy was a 5-star recruit coming out of high school.
McCarthy may be the fastest of the qbs having run a 4.48 forty.
He may have the strongest arm. Note in the video below that in 2020 he routinely threw the ball 80 yards in his warm-ups.
McCarthy injured his labrum in 2022 but played through the injury. This past year he injured his ankle and played through it. Both injuries impacted his throwing and running.
I have been watching more of McCarthy's games and I am coming away very impressed.
He comes from a pro-style offense where he needs to read and react.
He can run.
He continually extends plays when they break down.
He throws off the platform.
He makes all throws.
He has a great release.
He is accurate.
He can manage a game
He is tough and plays through injuries.
He just turned 21
and he is a winner
Link - ( New Window )
Yep, a lot to like about McCarthy. I have a gut feeling he will be the Giants pick. The top 3 QBs will be gone, as will Harrison. Chargers don't need a QB.
As mentioned by others, he is very young as well. There is a ton to work with, he has been coached by a former NFL head coach.
I just laugh at all those saying "I don't want him on my team." Nobody knows. Opinions are like a-holes. If Schoen and the rest of the front office like him enough to select him, I'm 100% behind it. You don't get cute, trying to get him later.
Ones sniping shots at the Giants getting McCarthy are the same ones bitching they didn't get Josh Allen back in 2018 when most were wishing for Josh Rosen or Sam Darnold. Draft is a crapshoot and a lot depends where they land. Lamar going to the Baltimore Ravens, for example. The man who has the same amount of playoff wins as the often ridiculed Baker Mayfield.
Or you had a crew who pushed for Kenny Pickett and Malik Willis (my god....).
6'-3" 210 lbs
McCarthy was a 5-star recruit coming out of high school.
McCarthy may be the fastest of the qbs having run a 4.48 forty.
He may have the strongest arm. Note in the video below that in 2020 he routinely threw the ball 80 yards in his warm-ups.
I
McCarthy injured his labrum in 2022 but played through the injury. This past year he injured his ankle and played through it. Both injuries impacted his throwing and running.
I have been watching more of McCarthy's games and I am coming away very impressed.
He comes from a pro-style offense where he needs to read and react.
He can run.
He continually extends plays when they break down.
He throws off the platform.
He makes all throws.
He has a great release.
He is accurate.
He can manage a game
He is tough and plays through injuries.
He just turned 21
and he is a winner
I agree on all these points Barens.
I especially like the fact that he’s just 21 and has so much room for growth both physically and and mentally.
I doubt he makes it past mid first round.
If we want him we may be in the Daniel Jones dilemma… do you take him at 6 or risk a trade down.
I’m not saying we definitely should or shouldn’t make him our choice, just opining on where he might go.
But he is the closest to Josh Allen in this class. Could JS and Dabs see it that way.
Maye is closer to Allen IMO.
Yeah Maye is absolutely much closer to Allen. I don't see the comparison between McCarthy and Allen at all. McCarthy played in a system that asked him to not lose the game.
is closer to Allen than McCarthy, but Allen is a better athlete than Maye.
I initially thought McCarthy was a late first, early second, round pick. I thought if was drafted in the top 15 it would be yet another example of teams over drafting a QB. But I now think he should be drafted top 15 - 20. He is a very good athlete, has a terrific arm, is accurate, and apparently has excellent processing speed. He's also only 21.
I still think he's a bit of a projection given that in many instances Michigan didn't seem to trust him to be more than a game manager who handed off and protected the ball with safe throws. But remember about 70% of Nix's throws were within 10 yards of the LOS and McCarthy has a much stronger arm IMO.
What will be really interesting is if McCarthy is taken ahead of Maye or Daniels.
IDK, I was just never impressed by him when I watched Michigan play
That both pro and anti-Jones people seem to dislike around here.
Which means he's the most likley to be passed on and six and subsequently tear it up in the league.
He may have all the talent needed to succeed in the NFL. He just never had to show that in college. He has the situation that people here want to build for Jones - great defense and dominant running game so the QB only has to be adequate. Maybe McCarthy doesn't need that at the NFL level, but I haven't seen him do enough in college to suggest that is true.
People are judging the Michigan offense as if they're breaking down McCarthy's arm talent, read process, reading the coverage, risk taking accuracy, and running ability off script. It's going to be exciting come Combine, pro days, and interview process. Wolverines vs Buckeyes 2022 - ( New Window )
he'd have put up big numbers. All that matters is the skillset. He has the arm and mobility but most important they say he has elite processing ability. I like him.
He may have all the talent needed to succeed in the NFL. He just never had to show that in college. He has the situation that people here want to build for Jones - great defense and dominant running game so the QB only has to be adequate. Maybe McCarthy doesn't need that at the NFL level, but I haven't seen him do enough in college to suggest that is true.
I may be confusing you with other members of the BBI QB Intelligentsia, but aren't you and certainly BW big proponents of the "scout QB traits, not stats" school of thought?
I personally, even as a Michigan fan, wouldn't touch JJ before the 2nd round and preferably 3rd. But watching him, I see a QB with a lot of plus if not plus plus traits. He's got a great arm (obviously not Elway/Allen, but who is?) and great mobility. He wasn't asked to do a whole lot and made some questionable decisions at times, but I would also argue that's just Harbaugh's offense and kind of always has been.
So I'm just curious what traits he definitively lacks that makes people cross him off? Physically, he's got it all. Mentally it's a question mark, but there's a huge difference between "hasn't had to do it" and "is incapable of doing it".
This is probably coming across as passive-aggressive, but I'm legitimately curious and asking in good faith. I don't love the guy, but I would think "traits hounds" would salivate at seeing what a guy with his combination of arm strength and mobility could be molded into by the right coaching staff.
Great point.
If you put McCarthy on USC, LSU, Oregon, Washington, etc. he would have been asked to do more.
He would likely be in the Heisman discussion and more highly touted.
The same can be said that if Williams, Maye, Daniels, etc. were on Michigan, there would be doubters.
And Maye didn't look too hot this past season. But their defense was abysmal and overall team talent wasn't too strong. If he drops to 6, he's a no brainer.
I think McCarthy is going to go much higher than any 2nd or 3rd round projection.
Ones sniping shots at the Giants getting McCarthy are the same ones bitching they didn't get Josh Allen back in 2018 when most were wishing for Josh Rosen or Sam Darnold. Draft is a crapshoot and a lot depends where they land. Lamar going to the Baltimore Ravens, for example. The man who has the same amount of playoff wins as the often ridiculed Baker Mayfield.
Or you had a crew who pushed for Kenny Pickett and Malik Willis (my god....).
IMV, lottery picks should be players who are vastly superior in terms of physical skills.
I could live with McCarthy later in the draft, but he does not possess the same package of physical attributes as Daniels, Maye and Williams. I think that's why there is pushback when McCarthy is elevated to the level of the top three.
If we took McCarthy on day two - or maybe trade up later in round one - I could live with it because I think that is fairer value based on his skills. And going late on day one or day two is still very complimentary of a prospect. You are one of the top 60+ players in the draft.
Watched pretty much every play of his college career.
Can run, but he won't hold up long term if asked to run often. Thought his reads on read option were inconsistent. Tough and will play through injury.
Has arm talent but frustrates with accuracy at times (especially overthrows). Struggled with deep accuracy especially early in his career. Was great on 3rd and long and 4th downs, Jake Butt is correct in point that out.
Brings a winning mentality and top notch intangibles. Teammates loved him and was a winner dating back to high school. Some guys have it and he seems to.
Makes some wow throws, but also trusts his arm sometimes to a fault (throwing into traffic). Thought another year in college would have helped him, but understand he had nothing else to accomplish on that level.
Brings a winning mentality and top notch intangibles. Teammates loved him and was a winner dating back to high school. Some guys have it and he seems to.
So?
How do you know that translates to the NFL and will make an NFL team better? I have been hearing and reading about Jones's intangibles for five long years.
To me, I find those to be nothing more than hackneyed items for football romantics who think intangibles help teams win more than physical skills.
Interesting highlights compared to Jayden Daniels.
When watching Jayden Daniels highlights, the top impression was his receivers always seemed to be open by 5 yards. Even in tougher games like Missouri. Of course he threw and ran well, but I don't ever recall seeing so many receivers so totally wide open for their QB.
The main impression I get from JJ's highlights above is that he throws into tight windows very often, and his receivers do a great job on contected catches. And he is a better and tougher runner than you would expect. Maybe this is who Sy56 is referring to??
to succeed, but they aren't everything. At most, if not all, positions, physical skills are enough to succeed in college moreso than in the pros.
There's a reason so many physically gifted QBs don't do so well in the NFL. They don't have the it factor. Deny that if you want. Intangibles are what make it difficult to project success from college into the pros.
In 5 years, I rarely saw much praise of DJ's intangibles.
on so many QB candidates that I will not comment much on McCarthy. He has a strong arm and seems to lack a bit of touch, but can certainly hustle the ball to a position if needed. Super young. Likely that Harbaugh protected him and the team from chances of INTs - well I would too if I had a running game and oline like Michigan has/had. He did make places vs Alabama when he needed to in the semis.
Think I will sit back and watch the QB draft issue as it unfolds.
This. I didn't watch a lot of Michigan football, and the little I saw JJ looked ordinary. I do recognize with the running game and defense Michigan had, they may have wanted to stay conservative in the passing game.
The one interesting thing I read about JJ was a statement that he had elite processing skills. If the Giants' research really confirms that, then I could understand taking him in round 1 - we need a good arm with an elite brain.
He has all the traits you look for in a franchise qb. He just turned 21 a few weeks ago and he's 1.25 years younger than Caleb Williams.
When he had to make plays with his arm he performed well like against Ohio St x2. He was playing with an ankle injury that hindered his ability to step into throws after the Penn st game. He throws incredibly well on the move.
He will bulk up for the NFL and I wouldn't be surprised if he does better in the NFL stats wise than in college. His efficiency numbers passing and on 3rd down are off the charts.
He had no special receivers to throw to and he played in an old school system based on controlling the clock, running the rock and solid defense.
He will go much earlier than people think, perhaps as early as the Broncos pick. I don't see it being reasonably possible to trade into the back of rd1 for him. Sean Payton could turn him into a great franchise qb imo. If Dabs and Schoen believed in him and took him at pick 6 then I'd be excited tbh. I personally would prefer Jayden Daniels but we would need to get fortunate for a chance at him I think.
6'-3" 210 lbs
McCarthy was a 5-star recruit coming out of high school.
McCarthy may be the fastest of the qbs having run a 4.48 forty.
He may have the strongest arm. Note in the video below that in 2020 he routinely threw the ball 80 yards in his warm-ups.
McCarthy injured his labrum in 2022 but played through the injury. This past year he injured his ankle and played through it. Both injuries impacted his throwing and running.
I have been watching more of McCarthy's games and I am coming away very impressed.
He comes from a pro-style offense where he needs to read and react.
He can run.
He continually extends plays when they break down.
He throws off the platform.
He makes all throws.
He has a great release.
He is accurate.
He can manage a game
He is tough and plays through injuries.
He just turned 21
and he is a winner
Link - ( New Window )
Good post. I forgot to mention the injured Labrum last year. He is literally 1
25 years younger than Caleb Williams. Kids potential is sky high and I love his mentality. He is a gamer. My top 5 rankings of QB prospects are as follows:
1. Jayden Daniels
2. CW
3. Drake Maye
4. JJ McCarthy
5. Michael Pennix Jr
were able to draft him without using the 6th pick. I like what I saw on TV.
No one, including the professionals, knows how college QBs will translate to the NFL. So much of a young QBs chances are dependent on the coaching staff he's with. Hopefully the Giants can pick a QB that Daboll can coach up quickly. Quickly in my mind means two years.
If any of you saw Josh Allen as a rookie and said he'd develop to a HOF level you're lying. He threw like Nuke Laloosh on the Durham Bulls his rookie season.
are his accuracy and his long throwing motion, either of which could be disasters in the NFL.
And while I understand Harbaugh's decision to put the games in the hands of his defense and his running game, doesn't that speak to at least some extent to the confidence Harbaugh hand in JJ? If when the chips are down, a coach rarely asks the QB to put the team on his shoulders, that's an indictment of the QB.
Brings a winning mentality and top notch intangibles. Teammates loved him and was a winner dating back to high school. Some guys have it and he seems to.
So?
How do you know that translates to the NFL and will make an NFL team better? I have been hearing and reading about Jones's intangibles for five long years.
To me, I find those to be nothing more than hackneyed items for football romantics who think intangibles help teams win more than physical skills.
Not sure what this has to do with Daniel Jones.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
RE: Interesting highlights compared to Jayden Daniels.
When watching Jayden Daniels highlights, the top impression was his receivers always seemed to be open by 5 yards. Even in tougher games like Missouri. Of course he threw and ran well, but I don't ever recall seeing so many receivers so totally wide open for their QB.
The main impression I get from JJ's highlights above is that he throws into tight windows very often, and his receivers do a great job on contected catches. And he is a better and tougher runner than you would expect. Maybe this is who Sy56 is referring to??
I could see the Patriots taking JJ McCarthy as a surprise pick. I know one poster said his connected buddy claimed Nix is their 2nd rated qb, but McCarthy would make a lot more sense and if he ended up being the goods then they'd look like geniuses. Going back to the old Michigan oil well to bring it back. He's used to playing with below average receivers and could fit right in on the Patriots. Wouldn't that be something.
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
My real concern with McCarthy is that the offense seemed to be a lot of one read or check it down. I am not sure if that is just John Harbaugh (he ran a similar style of offense with Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick) or the result of him trying to work within McCarthy's limits. It is frustrating as an observer (and I bet moreso for someone like you who does it professionally) that college teams just don't run pro style offenses.
RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
I have heard you mention that on a podcast before. You were with a guy who was a huge Michigan fan and he was drooling over McCarthy. Despite that, I don't recall you having a high grade on McCarthy during that show.
If you have had a change of mind, I look forward to you having him #1 on your board.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
My real concern with McCarthy is that the offense seemed to be a lot of one read or check it down. I am not sure if that is just John Harbaugh (he ran a similar style of offense with Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick) or the result of him trying to work within McCarthy's limits. It is frustrating as an observer (and I bet moreso for someone like you who does it professionally) that college teams just don't run pro style offenses.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Michigan's scheme was one of the more pro style offenses in CFB albeit an old school style predicated on run game, clock control, avoiding turnovers and sound defense. I think he ran nearly the same offense at Michigan as he did in the NFL. The rpo plays are usually with one read, but he goes through progressions well in traditional drop backs from what I've seen. I can't say he had elite processing as some claim, but it definitely doesn't appear to be a deficiency in his game.
RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Michigan's scheme was one of the more pro style offenses in CFB albeit an old school style predicated on run game, clock control, avoiding turnovers and sound defense. I think he ran nearly the same offense at Michigan as he did in the NFL. The rpo plays are usually with one read, but he goes through progressions well in traditional drop backs from what I've seen. I can't say he had elite processing as some claim, but it definitely doesn't appear to be a deficiency in his game.
How do you know McCarthy goes "through progressions well"? Based on what?
If McCarthy is this elite talent that many are trying to sell, then Harbaugh should trade Herbert and draft him at #5.
Harbaugh could get a boatload for Herbert and reset with the rookie deal. Do you think he will do that?
I mean, Harbaugh knows him the best, right? Will Harbaugh be making if he doesn't draft McCarthy?
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
Well, it seems plenty of posters are enamored with McCarthy's intangibles. And I've been hearing that about Jones for five years, especially since he was drafted. My point? How does that matter in the projection of a prospect? How do you measure that to see how it translate to NFL success?
Okay, so McCarthy wins a lot in high school and college. Are you suggesting we apply more weigh to that variable than his physical ability? I mean, I guess it means something, but all of these highly rated high school prospects go to good football schools and those schools continue to have good records.
All of I have said is that McCarthy does not have the physical skill package as the top three. Otherwise, I would include him that discussion. To me, he looks like a very good college QB who played for a great head coach who recruited a ton of good players that made McCarthy's situation optimal for success. And he has some interesting skills.
I see a McCarthy type nearly every year in the draft.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Michigan's scheme was one of the more pro style offenses in CFB albeit an old school style predicated on run game, clock control, avoiding turnovers and sound defense. I think he ran nearly the same offense at Michigan as he did in the NFL. The rpo plays are usually with one read, but he goes through progressions well in traditional drop backs from what I've seen. I can't say he had elite processing as some claim, but it definitely doesn't appear to be a deficiency in his game.
How do you know McCarthy goes "through progressions well"? Based on what?
If McCarthy is this elite talent that many are trying to sell, then Harbaugh should trade Herbert and draft him at #5.
Harbaugh could get a boatload for Herbert and reset with the rookie deal. Do you think he will do that?
I mean, Harbaugh knows him the best, right? Will Harbaugh be making if he doesn't draft McCarthy?
"From what I've seen he goes through progressions well in traditional dropbacks". I do see some claim he had elite processing, but I don't have the ability to analyze that and im not going that far. I just see him go through multiple reads rather quickly and make a decision in a timely manner, going to his 2nd or 3rd or sometimes 4th option.
You misread Sy's comment I think. He said JJ is qb1 when it comes to his stats under pressure. That doesn't mean he will be ranked qb1 for Sy. Although, JJ's qb1 rating when under pressure definitely suggests his processing is above average and definitely not a flaw in his game as it was with DJ. I will always remember Sy's prophetic analysis of DJ predraft saying he didn't have the quick mind needed to be a good nfl qb. That is DJ's biggest issue and I don't think it's similar for JJ.
RE: RE: I really hope JJ McCarthy goes QB1 as well.
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
And that's the thing, as the season went on, it was apparent that Michigan had less than stellar offensive tackle play, which was a big reason why they leaned on the running game. But he was more than just a game manager, he's completely capable of delivering big plays when need be.
RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
Interesting. Ourlads has him at #45 in the mock draft. Does your view of him diverge from the rest of them there, or do they just feel he will go that low?
Stats vs. pressure and quick processing would be key traits for Schoen and Daboll one would think. I like Nabers and some of the edges, but my gut tells me it's JJ.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
Well, it seems plenty of posters are enamored with McCarthy's intangibles. And I've been hearing that about Jones for five years, especially since he was drafted. My point? How does that matter in the projection of a prospect? How do you measure that to see how it translate to NFL success?
Okay, so McCarthy wins a lot in high school and college. Are you suggesting we apply more weigh to that variable than his physical ability? I mean, I guess it means something, but all of these highly rated high school prospects go to good football schools and those schools continue to have good records.
All of I have said is that McCarthy does not have the physical skill package as the top three. Otherwise, I would include him that discussion. To me, he looks like a very good college QB who played for a great head coach who recruited a ton of good players that made McCarthy's situation optimal for success. And he has some interesting skills.
I see a McCarthy type nearly every year in the draft.
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
Well, it seems plenty of posters are enamored with McCarthy's intangibles. And I've been hearing that about Jones for five years, especially since he was drafted. My point? How does that matter in the projection of a prospect? How do you measure that to see how it translate to NFL success?
Okay, so McCarthy wins a lot in high school and college. Are you suggesting we apply more weigh to that variable than his physical ability? I mean, I guess it means something, but all of these highly rated high school prospects go to good football schools and those schools continue to have good records.
All of I have said is that McCarthy does not have the physical skill package as the top three. Otherwise, I would include him that discussion. To me, he looks like a very good college QB who played for a great head coach who recruited a ton of good players that made McCarthy's situation optimal for success. And he has some interesting skills.
I see a McCarthy type nearly every year in the draft.
As a casual fan watching JJ, I didn't see anything jump out at me either. My perspective changed after watching all 22s and studying him more. The injuries that hindered him in '22 and '23 are very real. The lack of offensive skill position talent is very real. His mentality for qb is qb1 to me. He is extremely athletic, I wouldn't be surprised if he is close to top of the charts on overall RAS score. He has a very strong arm and is very smart. He is qb1 in terms of stats under pressure. I believe his football iq is very high and he is extremely coachable.
I don't agree with the comparisons to DJ at all. JJ is vastly superior as an athlete and in nearly every way and JJ have a slow mind like DJ does imo. I can't get the inside perspective NFL front offices can, but I could see JJ being taken as qb2 if he shows vastly superior football iq while also testing off the charts at the combine.
Bw, you and I actually shared many discussions on how McCarthy wasn't impressive during the cfb season. I had the same opinion as you during the cfb season, but I hadn't done any research and didn't really know anything about him other than stats and watching some games on TV. Upon further review, my opinion completely changed on JJ. I'm glad it did because I was thinking we were screwed without some luck in this draft to get Maye or CW or JD.
Id be very excited if Dabs and Schoen like what JJ does in interviews, the combine etc along with believing in his talents. JJ could be potentially be like a taller and more athletic version of Russell Wilson.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
You misread Sy's comment I think. He said JJ is qb1 when it comes to his stats under pressure. That doesn't mean he will be ranked qb1 for Sy. Although, JJ's qb1 rating when under pressure definitely suggests his processing is above average and definitely not a flaw in his game as it was with DJ. I will always remember Sy's prophetic analysis of DJ predraft saying he didn't have the quick mind needed to be a good nfl qb. That is DJ's biggest issue and I don't think it's similar for JJ.
I didn't misread it. I was being a little tongue in cheek.
I really don't know what dealing with pressure in college means in terms of dealing with pressure in the NFL. The complexity of NFL defenses is PhD stuff compared to the vanilla Ds most face in college.
I would certainly be curious what goes into that pressure stat to arrive at a conclusion. For example:
Where did the pass go? Was it a check down? Did the receiver make actually make the play work with a good catch? Was the defense personnel actually good? Was the throw to an open receiver? What was the depth of the catch? Was the play between the numbers? Etc.
Can we agree that we collectively know nothing about these QBs?
Our opinions are based on our limited observations and research.
I do not know how people can be so set in their opinions.
I think that McCarthy has demonstrated some admirable traits and has prerequisite attributes.
I cannot tell you if he is a better prospect than the other QBs. What I can say is that he should be in the Giants' discussion when they draft a QB.
Also, even the NFL teams will have differing opinions based on what they want their QBs to be and to do.
For some to trash McCarthy or try and degrade him is ridiculous.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
You misread Sy's comment I think. He said JJ is qb1 when it comes to his stats under pressure. That doesn't mean he will be ranked qb1 for Sy. Although, JJ's qb1 rating when under pressure definitely suggests his processing is above average and definitely not a flaw in his game as it was with DJ. I will always remember Sy's prophetic analysis of DJ predraft saying he didn't have the quick mind needed to be a good nfl qb. That is DJ's biggest issue and I don't think it's similar for JJ.
I didn't misread it. I was being a little tongue in cheek.
I really don't know what dealing with pressure in college means in terms of dealing with pressure in the NFL. The complexity of NFL defenses is PhD stuff compared to the vanilla Ds most face in college.
I would certainly be curious what goes into that pressure stat to arrive at a conclusion. For example:
Where did the pass go? Was it a check down? Did the receiver make actually make the play work with a good catch? Was the defense personnel actually good? Was the throw to an open receiver? What was the depth of the catch? Was the play between the numbers? Etc.
"McCarthy was 48 of 77 (62.3%) with eight TDs and three interceptions under pressure, and he was 78 of 112 (69.6%) for 1,144 yards, six TDs and three interceptions when blitzed."
14.7yds per completion seems with 70% completion percentage seems like he punished teams when he was blitzed. This points toward being quick minded, spotting blitzes and making defenses pay for blitzing him. He lit up top defenses like the 22 osu defense. CW looked below average against good defenses, while JJ shined. Just an interesting point to note, I will repeat his age is about 1.25 years younger than CW too.
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
The mentality definitely matters immensely albeit this is one of the hardest aspects to project with prospects. He is a winner and that's important. The parts of his A+ mentality that I find to be very important in evaluation is how he played under pressure, in big games and how he seemed unphased by mistakes or things not going his way. He has an old soul centerdness about him that is absolutely crucial for success in the NFL.
Can we agree that we collectively know nothing about these QBs?
Our opinions are based on our limited observations and research.
I do not know how people can be so set in their opinions.
I think that McCarthy has demonstrated some admirable traits and has prerequisite attributes.
I cannot tell you if he is a better prospect than the other QBs. What I can say is that he should be in the Giants' discussion when they draft a QB.
Also, even the NFL teams will have differing opinions based on what they want their QBs to be and to do.
For some to trash McCarthy or try and degrade him is ridiculous.
I agree we don't know everything. But who does? Scouts don't, either. This, IMV, is far more art than science.
I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
were able to draft him without using the 6th pick. I like what I saw on TV.
No one, including the professionals, knows how college QBs will translate to the NFL. So much of a young QBs chances are dependent on the coaching staff he's with. Hopefully the Giants can pick a QB that Daboll can coach up quickly. Quickly in my mind means two years.
If any of you saw Josh Allen as a rookie and said he'd develop to a HOF level you're lying. He threw like Nuke Laloosh on the Durham Bulls his rookie season.
The day after the Bills drafted Allen, I texted my friend, Larry, who is a huge Bills fan, and said "Allen is gong to be a monster!"
The mentality definitely matters immensely albeit this is one of the hardest aspects to project with prospects. He is a winner and that's important. The parts of his A+ mentality that I find to be very important in evaluation is how he played under pressure, in big games and how he seemed unphased by mistakes or things not going his way. He has an old soul centerdness about him that is absolutely crucial for success in the NFL.
Again, basically every highly ranked high school player goes to a top tier school. So, being a part of winning program - thus, you are a "winner" - doesn't bowl me over as some special attribute. But that's just me.
Re: McCarthy having "an old soul centerdness that is absolutely crucial..." Whatever you say, W.B. Yeats. ;)
Can we agree that we collectively know nothing about these QBs?
Our opinions are based on our limited observations and research.
I do not know how people can be so set in their opinions.
I think that McCarthy has demonstrated some admirable traits and has prerequisite attributes.
I cannot tell you if he is a better prospect than the other QBs. What I can say is that he should be in the Giants' discussion when they draft a QB.
Also, even the NFL teams will have differing opinions based on what they want their QBs to be and to do.
For some to trash McCarthy or try and degrade him is ridiculous.
I agree we don't know everything. But who does? Scouts don't, either. This, IMV, is far more art than science.
I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
I don't know how you got that comparison. Wilson was a gimmick QB in the NFL who had one year of starting at BYU. McCarthy played at Michigan in a pro style offense. Very different QB's.
After watching those throws I am beginning to like McCarthy as an option for the Giants. The issue is is #6 too high?
It's hard to know what to make of McCarthy based on his limited usage
I can't see him ahead of any of top 3 for that reason. Doesn't mean some team's scouts and coach won't fall in love with him and project him as QB2 or QB3. I just don't think there is enough for us laypeople to see it.
If the Giants traded back I would strongly consider him in the mid first range. Same with Nix. Interested to see what more of the analysts say regarding these QB's as the draft process plays out.
Here is why I never disliked McCarthy as an option
He is very young, as another poster mentioned he just turned 21, plus he has all the intangibles and a strong arm to be a franchise QB. It would be a great player to have Daboll develop.
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
Fair, I think we all may have Daniel Jones PTSD at this point.
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
McCarthy isn’t faster than Daniels.
McCarthy still struggles with the deep ball.
His arm is not the strongest.
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
But are we really good at deciding which intangibles matter? You only point to two busts, but there are others who didn't go bust. Did Aaron Rodgers show great intangibles?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
Quote:
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
Wow. You should probably let some NFL front offices know you've found the secret to rating QBs since processing ability has to be one of the most important abilities a QB can possess, if not the absolute most important. Surely eliminating guys who can't process the field would go a long way to drafting that special QB we all want.
Also, I would argue that most QBs who flame out of the NFL fail because of intangibles. Not too many guys with noodle arms are getting drafted, but every year we see guys with howitzers who can fly on the field flame out at QB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
Quote:
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
Wow. You should probably let some NFL front offices know you've found the secret to rating QBs since processing ability has to be one of the most important abilities a QB can possess, if not the absolute most important. Surely eliminating guys who can't process the field would go a long way to drafting that special QB we all want.
Also, I would argue that most QBs who flame out of the NFL fail because of intangibles. Not too many guys with noodle arms are getting drafted, but every year we see guys with howitzers who can fly on the field flame out at QB.
I think you should reread my post. I didn't say processing is unimportant, actually quite the opposite. I said it's a basic trait of the position, in my view, not an intangible.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
I will say that the QB position is unique in the sense that items that would be “intangibles” at other positions are important at QB. If you are doing well or doing poorly the media will flock to the QB. You listen to Mahomes he will never take the credit when they are doing well and when they are slumping it isn’t his WR’s fault for dropping the ball or lining up offsides, it is his (Mahomes’s) fault for not lining them up correctly, not throwing a more catchable ball, etc. Even when talking about the opponent he never gives bulletin board material.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
My personal opinion, and others can differ, is that there is a certain level of intangibles a QB needs to be successful. It is a yes or no question and if the answer is no they should not be on your board as a Day 1 or 2 guy regardless of physical attributes. If the answer is yes whether they barely make the threshold or are off the board high does not matter so long as they meet that threshold.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
I will say that the QB position is unique in the sense that items that would be “intangibles” at other positions are important at QB. If you are doing well or doing poorly the media will flock to the QB. You listen to Mahomes he will never take the credit when they are doing well and when they are slumping it isn’t his WR’s fault for dropping the ball or lining up offsides, it is his (Mahomes’s) fault for not lining them up correctly, not throwing a more catchable ball, etc. Even when talking about the opponent he never gives bulletin board material.
Mahomes is incredible. He seems like a great dude in top of being a great player. But what about a guy like Rodgers, who seems like a giant asshole, yet he's great on the field and players love him and he seems to be a good football leader. I'm not saying intangibles aren't important but they are hard to define, hard to measure, and don't seem to be a prerequisite for greatness. Lots of good dudes with excellent intangibles, who aren't any good at football.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
Okay. You are certainly a big McCarthy fan. Would to take him first if you were the Bears?
Just some additional comments to what you wrote:
Throwing the ball far doesn't equal arm talent. If I have to explain the differences, then we have to start from scratch.
Yeah, reading that linebacker and safety on those RPOs is PhD stuff at the college-level.
Being a winner, tough and playing hurt doesn't really move the needle for me as great separators vis-a-vis other QBs.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
I will say that the QB position is unique in the sense that items that would be “intangibles” at other positions are important at QB. If you are doing well or doing poorly the media will flock to the QB. You listen to Mahomes he will never take the credit when they are doing well and when they are slumping it isn’t his WR’s fault for dropping the ball or lining up offsides, it is his (Mahomes’s) fault for not lining them up correctly, not throwing a more catchable ball, etc. Even when talking about the opponent he never gives bulletin board material.
Mahomes is incredible. He seems like a great dude in top of being a great player. But what about a guy like Rodgers, who seems like a giant asshole, yet he's great on the field and players love him and he seems to be a good football leader. I'm not saying intangibles aren't important but they are hard to define, hard to measure, and don't seem to be a prerequisite for greatness. Lots of good dudes with excellent intangibles, who aren't any good at football.
Because people overrate intangibles. As I said in my prior post responding to bw, if they meet the threshold of intangibles needed to be a successful QB I do not believe any incremental increase will result in better play if it is coming at the expense of tangible tools.
That throw is about the limits of Williams's arm.
I am not saying that Williams does not have a strong arm.
McCarthy's arm is as strong if not stronger. The throws that I posted were from high school.
McCarthy was known by all of the high school scouts that he and Milton had the strongest arms. They also had the greatest velocity on their throws.
They would line up at the 20 and take turns throwing the ball threw the uprights.
Remember this is when McCarthy was 180 lbs and still growing.
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I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
Okay. You are certainly a big McCarthy fan. Would to take him first if you were the Bears?
Just some additional comments to what you wrote:
Throwing the ball far doesn't equal arm talent. If I have to explain the differences, then we have to start from scratch.
Yeah, reading that linebacker and safety on those RPOs is PhD stuff at the college-level.
Being a winner, tough and playing hurt doesn't really move the needle for me as great separators vis-a-vis other QBs.
Just looking at college record doesn’t move the needle to me. However, a QB has to want to finish each NFL season 20-0. Otherwise you get a Jameis Winston who likes to pad his stats but really doesn’t look like he cares if it translates to wins on the field so long as he is getting paid.
That throw is about the limits of Williams's arm.
I am not saying that Williams does not have a strong arm.
McCarthy's arm is as strong if not stronger. The throws that I posted were from high school.
McCarthy was known by all of the high school scouts that he and Milton had the strongest arms. They also had the greatest velocity on their throws.
They would line up at the 20 and take turns throwing the ball threw the uprights.
Remember this is when McCarthy was 180 lbs and still growing.
Quote:
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
Since we are just making stuff up...
Spencer Rattler is so fast he can run back in time
Spencer Rattler once threw a ball through a tank
Spencer Rattler built a functional nuclear reactor when he was 7
Spencer Rattler eliminated childhood poverty through the sheer force of his will
Just looking at college record doesn’t move the needle to me. However, a QB has to want to finish each NFL season 20-0. Otherwise you get a Jameis Winston who likes to pad his stats but really doesn’t look like he cares if it translates to wins on the field so long as he is getting paid.
Again, I'm not underestimating that it's important to get under the head of prospect's mind. That certainly has value.
But so many of these kids these days are very well trained/rehearsed to know what to say in the interview process. Their agents/agencies want to make sure that box is checked...
Even so, until you are with a person day after day, week after week, month after month - you get the point - there really is no way to fully know what you are getting as a person. That is a very hard thing to project, especially going from programs that win in college to an NFL team that is at rock bottom.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
Okay. You are certainly a big McCarthy fan. Would to take him first if you were the Bears?
Just some additional comments to what you wrote:
Throwing the ball far doesn't equal arm talent. If I have to explain the differences, then we have to start from scratch.
Yeah, reading that linebacker and safety on those RPOs is PhD stuff at the college-level.
Being a winner, tough and playing hurt doesn't really move the needle for me as great separators vis-a-vis other QBs.
Everyone agrees on the top 3 QBs are going 1,2,3 in the draft. He's going to be the 4th QB picked, and look at the draft order.
All of these teams need a young QB and could get him, and don't forget the 5th year option they get if he's drafted in the 1st round. He's 21 years old. The 5th year option is huge for such a young QB with his tool set.
Daniel is a far superior runner and much quicker than McCarthy.
Daniels may time better at the combine but his best recorded time in the 40 is 4.50
McCarthy has been timed at 4.48
Quote:
"ahead of his first start for Michigan last season, McCarthy was consistently timed between 4.5 and 4.4 seconds. Oct 15, 2023 "
Quote:
McCarthy said that he’s improved his 40-yard dash from being in the 4.8s and now believes he is in the 4.4s or 4.5s. McCarthy credits strength and conditioning coach Ben Herbert with getting his speed down, and co-offensive coordinator/quarterbacks coach Matt Weiss with helping him become a more dangerous runner.
Or if he is there at #5, and Harbaugh knows him well, should the Chargers take him, trade Herbert for a ton of assets, and reset on the rookie contract?
Nix, Penix, and McCarthy are all second tier prospects that can be above average in Daboll’s scheme and an upgrade over Jones. I don’t want any of them at 6, but I won’t be upset if they could get any of them at the end of round 1. I just think all 6 QBs will go in the top 20. There’s too many teams that need a QB right now.
Everyone agrees on the top 3 QBs are going 1,2,3 in the draft. He's going to be the 4th QB picked, and look at the draft order.
All of these teams need a young QB and could get him, and don't forget the 5th year option they get if he's drafted in the 1st round. He's 21 years old. The 5th year option is huge for such a young QB with his tool set.
I could see McCarthy being in the running for the 4th spot.
The age is a factor to a degree. Raw talent matters more to me. But I get your point. Fashanu has the same age "advantage" for LT.
he's the real deal in the NFL, why on earth would you trade him? Top prospects often fail in the transition to the NFL, so why take the risk?
Either draft a top prospect at a position of need (now, or next year), or trade the draft slot for a ton of picks.
Harbaugh not drafting JJM would not be indicative of confidence level of JJM in the NFL. IF Harbaugh needs a QB and passes on JJM, then there's a conversation to be had.
he's the real deal in the NFL, why on earth would you trade him? Top prospects often fail in the transition to the NFL, so why take the risk?
Either draft a top prospect at a position of need (now, or next year), or trade the draft slot for a ton of picks.
Harbaugh not drafting JJM would not be indicative of confidence level of JJM in the NFL. IF Harbaugh needs a QB and passes on JJM, then there's a conversation to be had.
I was/am trying to get a feel for just how highly Archer views McCarthy.
I absolutely wouldn't waste a second thinking about trading Herbert to reset with McCarthy.
That throw is about the limits of Williams's arm.
I am not saying that Williams does not have a strong arm.
McCarthy's arm is as strong if not stronger. The throws that I posted were from high school.
McCarthy was known by all of the high school scouts that he and Milton had the strongest arms. They also had the greatest velocity on their throws.
They would line up at the 20 and take turns throwing the ball threw the uprights.
Remember this is when McCarthy was 180 lbs and still growing.
Quote:
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
A 7 step run up and jump will give you more distance than a typical step into a throw. That's just physics.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
I have heard you mention that on a podcast before. You were with a guy who was a huge Michigan fan and he was drooling over McCarthy. Despite that, I don't recall you having a high grade on McCarthy during that show.
If you have had a change of mind, I look forward to you having him #1 on your board.
I hadn't studied McCarthy in depth when it came to film study at that point. I thought there was a shot he would go back to school.
He has since moved up.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
Interesting. Ourlads has him at #45 in the mock draft. Does your view of him diverge from the rest of them there, or do they just feel he will go that low?
Stats vs. pressure and quick processing would be key traits for Schoen and Daboll one would think. I like Nabers and some of the edges, but my gut tells me it's JJ.
That mock was pre-McCarthy film study and yes, I have to somewhat tailor the Ourlads Mock to the staff rankings.
There is film of him doing everything other QBs have to do, just less of it due to his situation. He's a massively intriguing wild card. But I can assure you, any team in need of a QB will do their homework. An analyst I know has him as QB 4. What is not clear to me is if he is closer to 3 or closer to 5. That's the question.
I will say this though --it is telling that JJ has elected to come out after three seasons compared to the four or five of Penix, Daniels, and Nix.
pretty late in the process? Maybe I am not remembering properly but I feel like he was initially considered a later 1st round pick and then had a steady rise heading toward draft day.
And a 1st round grade on him:
McCarthy has first-round arm talent and can beat defenses with his legs too. He ranked third in the country in Total QBR (89.2) and completion percentage (72.3%) in 2023. Since he took over as the Wolverines' starter in 2022, he threw 44 touchdown passes and nine interceptions. Five of those INTs have come in two games, however; he threw three against Bowling Green earlier in 2023, and he had two pick-sixes in the College Football Playoff semifinal loss to TCU last season. Outside of those two games, he has managed games effectively and made great decisions with the football.
I recently projected McCarthy in the middle of Round 1 in my debut mock draft, and I think he will put up great testing numbers at the combine. Sure, he averaged just 22.1 pass attempts per game in 2023 and only needed to complete 10 passes in the national title game, but his upside is immense.
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
All true, however there is one thing I have not read about JJ that I also know is true, his teammates all love him! Even when he was in HS he became Michigan’s lead recruiter having other guys join him. That’s something that should not be overlooked.
"Tom Brady is the the greatest football player of all time. He’s lapped the field. He’s lapped the field a full lap. J.J. has a long way to go to get to that. But in terms of who I think is the best college quarterback in the 144-year history of Michigan football, I’m nominating J.J. McCarthy. I’m not the maker of that list, but that’s my opinion."
No endorsement on my part. Just reporting what the coach said.
I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
Quote:
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions. Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
Thar was 60 yards from the 25 to the 15, here is a 55 yard howitzer from JJ Link - ( New Window )
I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
Quote:
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions. Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
On this throw he goes 40 yards deep and 40 yards across the field making it at least 55 yards and on a line the kid can throw with the best of them and he can definitely put on 20-30lbs as his body is still growing just turned 21: Link - ( New Window )
I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
Quote:
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions. Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
Thar was 60 yards from the 25 to the 15, here is a 55 yard howitzer from JJ Link - ( New Window )
The throw was from the 16. I think it is telling that you are comparing a 50 yard throw to a 65 yard throw. You're basically admitting my point. McCarthy doesn't have any throws that big on tape.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
I think you should reread my post. I didn't say processing is unimportant, actually quite the opposite. I said it's a basic trait of the position, in my view, not an intangible.
We agree on the importance of processing speed and ability and I completely understood your post. At this point I'm just pretty sure you don't know what the terms "tangible" and "intangible" actually mean. It has nothing to do with how vital an ability is to performing the position, but how well that ability can be measured. Things like arm strength, running speed, agility, height, weight, etc are all tangible qualities. They can be accurately measured and quantified. They are tangible.
Things like leadership ability, work ethic, having a "will to win", and, I would argue things like the ability to sense pressure or process the field are much harder to measure directly. They are essentially unquantifiable. Intangible.
A QB's coaches with full knowledge of their offensive system and the read progressions can watch plays and tell you how well and quickly a player can generally process the field, but not a single person sitting on the couch watching TV or even pouring over hours of Youtube videos or All 22 film will know with 100% certainty a lot of the information needed to try to quantify processing ability. You can maybe come up with an educated guess, and sometimes it might be obvious if a QB is consistently missing open guys like Jones seems to, but it's still not a really measurable data point.
The S2 test may be a breakthrough in that area, but I think we'll need to see exactly how applicable it is to football specifically and playing QB even more specifically. I don't think the body of data is there yet to say definitively one way or the other how accurate an assessment it is, but hopefully we'll know soon enough.
Whoever drafts him is going to need a good system and patience. He’s just now turning 21 years old. He will need to sit and learn the pro game, and wait his time. He has talent, but doesn’t have a ton experience. I like the fact that he progress every season at Michigan. That bodes well for his future.
Whoever drafts him is going to need a good system and patience. He’s just now turning 21 years old. He will need to sit and learn the pro game, and wait his time. He has talent, but doesn’t have a ton experience. I like the fact that he progress every season at Michigan. That bodes well for his future.
evergreen comment for just about any rookie qb. can/could have said the same about lawrence, tua, bryce young, hurts, lamar, josh allen, mahomes, fields, etc.
herbert may be the only who looks to have been so traditionally talented that he stood out despite the situation, but not unlike mccarthy was held back in college by the system he played in (cristobal's wet dream is ironically the UM offense).
Btw, glad to see Manhattan make the Anthony Richardson analogy. Not about the style of play but how pro scouts saw an entirely different player from what fans saw. I bet McCarthy goes in the top 7. This is good for the Giants.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
Sure. I guess I just think most of the guys even up for debate have relatively similar physical skills. Obviously there are outliers and you want the Herbert/Allen/Mahomes type of unicorn if you can get him. I just doubt there's really that huge a spread.
For argument's sake, I just browsed the list of NFL Combine Throw velocities of the last 10 years. The slowest I found was Deshaun Watson at 45 (tied withsomeone I never heard of in the same class). Josh Allen (and Dorian Thomson-Robinson) at 62. Much larger than I would have guessed. Most QBs (including Mahomes at 55mph) measure in the mid to high 50s. That's just one small measurable, but it would appear as long as you're in the neighborhood of 55mph, you should be golden.
I think once you get to that baseline physical talent, it's the intangibles that set most of the great QBs apart from the benchwarmers.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
Sure. I guess I just think most of the guys even up for debate have relatively similar physical skills. Obviously there are outliers and you want the Herbert/Allen/Mahomes type of unicorn if you can get him. I just doubt there's really that huge a spread.
For argument's sake, I just browsed the list of NFL Combine Throw velocities of the last 10 years. The slowest I found was Deshaun Watson at 45 (tied withsomeone I never heard of in the same class). Josh Allen (and Dorian Thomson-Robinson) at 62. Much larger than I would have guessed. Most QBs (including Mahomes at 55mph) measure in the mid to high 50s. That's just one small measurable, but it would appear as long as you're in the neighborhood of 55mph, you should be golden.
I think once you get to that baseline physical talent, it's the intangibles that set most of the great QBs apart from the benchwarmers.
Agreed, you'd think NFL front offices would be using high tech simulators to analyze in game processing speed. It wouldn't be as accurate as real in game processing with real 250-350lb guys in your face, but I'd imagine it would provide some better Intel.
Maybe Jimbo Harbaugh will save us from making a mistake and grab him when Rd 2 starts to back up Herbert.
I'm hoping Washington or NE falls in love with JJ and takes him allowing one of the others to drop within reach
This is false. Drake Maye is the closest to Josh Allen in this class.
+1
Wow, Jim. I hadn't heard that comp before. In what ways? Arm talent (which would be awesome)? Accuracy, coming out of college? (which would be less desirable)
I think he has more Mahomes attributes than Allen. Not saying he's the next great one, but I do think he has those abilities.
Could not respectfully disagree more with this. Maye is a 6'4" 230lb highly mobile improviser that can make all the throws. Not taking anything away from McCarthy but he is not Allen's size and i think it's fair to question if his frame could even add that mass.
I personally would rather trade up, pick a QB at 6 or trade down and add picks for next years trade up. Some picks are more of a projection than others and I don't know why we'd sign up for a big time projection with the last one still on the roster.
I see more of a Mitch Trubisky (adequate size, good not great athlete, average arm).
That's McCarthy???
LOFL X infinity
I see more of a Mitch Trubisky (adequate size, good not great athlete, average arm).
Actually, he's a great athlete, and he's Cleary got a strong arm. you got 1 out of 3 correct.
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But he is the closest to Josh Allen in this class. Could JS and Dabs see it that way.
I think he has more Mahomes attributes than Allen. Not saying he's the next great one, but I do think he has those abilities.
Are you two kidding mentioning Mahomes and Allen on this thread?
Pratt is viewed as day 3, I think he goes day 2. McCarthy is everywhere from early second to late first, I think someone takes him high as in 15th or earlier.
6'-3" 210 lbs
McCarthy was a 5-star recruit coming out of high school.
McCarthy may be the fastest of the qbs having run a 4.48 forty.
He may have the strongest arm. Note in the video below that in 2020 he routinely threw the ball 80 yards in his warm-ups.
McCarthy injured his labrum in 2022 but played through the injury. This past year he injured his ankle and played through it. Both injuries impacted his throwing and running.
I have been watching more of McCarthy's games and I am coming away very impressed.
He comes from a pro-style offense where he needs to read and react.
He can run.
He continually extends plays when they break down.
He throws off the platform.
He makes all throws.
He has a great release.
He is accurate.
He can manage a game
He is tough and plays through injuries.
He just turned 21
and he is a winner
Link - ( New Window )
Think I will sit back and watch the QB draft issue as it unfolds.
I don't know how he stacks up against the top three QBs but he has everything that they have and more.
I think he is underrated because he was not asked to be the focus of the team. He was not asked to win games.
He did what he had to do.
Williams, Maye, Daniels, Nix, and Penix were the focus of their teams, and as such received more acclaim.
If Schoen sees franchise potential in JJ, he will draft him. If not, we will get to witness his career elsewhere.
Personally, I watched a bunch of Michigan games this year vs. very good teams and he seems to be able to read a defense, not lock on to a receiver, smooth in the pocket, sense danger and if necessary, scramble for a first down.
His arm is strong and he seems to have touch.
Pratt is viewed as day 3, I think he goes day 2. McCarthy is everywhere from early second to late first, I think someone takes him high as in 15th or earlier.
Could be even higher than that, especially if he impresses at the combine. Have noticed recent tweets from reporters stating that McCarthy is thought of more highly by scouts as compared to the general public.
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holding water.
I see more of a Mitch Trubisky (adequate size, good not great athlete, average arm).
Actually, he's a great athlete, and he's Cleary got a strong arm. you got 1 out of 3 correct.
There is a lot to like about him and he's intriguing. But he isn't close to having the strongest arm in this class. I've been watching a lot of highlight videos of him and I don't see a particularly strong arm. He gets the ball to where it needs to be. But a lot of his passes just seem to take a long time to get there. I saw many of his "highlights" that would have been INTs in the pros, especially long outs. And his windup sometimes gets long to get extra zip. That will be a concern in the pros.
In all the highlights I've watched I've seen him throw 3 passes between 40 and 45 yards down the field, all were underthrown. I haven't seen him throw a pass more than 45 yards down the field. Maybe that's Michigan's offense.
He's a good runner, with above average speed for a QB, but he's not shifty and quick.
So many here rip Daniels for being 6-4, 210, but McCarthy is 6-3, 202. As I've said with Daniels, if McCarthy ends up a Giant he has a year to add weight and strength. So maybe the Giants are a good place for him.
Think I will sit back and watch the QB draft issue as it unfolds.
I agree with, and I think that is fair. The aforementioned comparisons were all about upside, no-one is saying he will be the next so and so, but that he has those attributes.
Draft season started with Richardson speculation that he could maybe possibly go in the 1st. Then chatter elevated him in amateur mock drafts to go in the teens. He ended up going 4th and played well last season.
Sy’s also hinted that the top 3 QBs may not be who you think they are. So I think there’s a decent chance he is the Giants 1st pick at 6 this year. It will be really interesting to see how this unfolds.
In 2022 he played the entire year with a partially torn labrum. The injury occurred in spring practice and did not heal until after the season.
This year he injured his ankle against Penn State. He could not set his feet, so for 4-5 games he was not asked to throw the ball.
As a high school senior, he and Milton were tested and they were one-two with arm strength, distance, and velocity.
Penix and Nix turns 24 soon.
Daniels turns 24 in December.
6'-3" 210 lbs
McCarthy was a 5-star recruit coming out of high school.
McCarthy may be the fastest of the qbs having run a 4.48 forty.
He may have the strongest arm. Note in the video below that in 2020 he routinely threw the ball 80 yards in his warm-ups.
McCarthy injured his labrum in 2022 but played through the injury. This past year he injured his ankle and played through it. Both injuries impacted his throwing and running.
I have been watching more of McCarthy's games and I am coming away very impressed.
He comes from a pro-style offense where he needs to read and react.
He can run.
He continually extends plays when they break down.
He throws off the platform.
He makes all throws.
He has a great release.
He is accurate.
He can manage a game
He is tough and plays through injuries.
He just turned 21
and he is a winner
Link - ( New Window )
Yep, a lot to like about McCarthy. I have a gut feeling he will be the Giants pick. The top 3 QBs will be gone, as will Harrison. Chargers don't need a QB.
As mentioned by others, he is very young as well. There is a ton to work with, he has been coached by a former NFL head coach.
I just laugh at all those saying "I don't want him on my team." Nobody knows. Opinions are like a-holes. If Schoen and the rest of the front office like him enough to select him, I'm 100% behind it. You don't get cute, trying to get him later.
Or you had a crew who pushed for Kenny Pickett and Malik Willis (my god....).
6'-3" 210 lbs
McCarthy was a 5-star recruit coming out of high school.
McCarthy may be the fastest of the qbs having run a 4.48 forty.
He may have the strongest arm. Note in the video below that in 2020 he routinely threw the ball 80 yards in his warm-ups.
I
McCarthy injured his labrum in 2022 but played through the injury. This past year he injured his ankle and played through it. Both injuries impacted his throwing and running.
I have been watching more of McCarthy's games and I am coming away very impressed.
He comes from a pro-style offense where he needs to read and react.
He can run.
He continually extends plays when they break down.
He throws off the platform.
He makes all throws.
He has a great release.
He is accurate.
He can manage a game
He is tough and plays through injuries.
He just turned 21
and he is a winner
I agree on all these points Barens.
I especially like the fact that he’s just 21 and has so much room for growth both physically and and mentally.
I doubt he makes it past mid first round.
If we want him we may be in the Daniel Jones dilemma… do you take him at 6 or risk a trade down.
I’m not saying we definitely should or shouldn’t make him our choice, just opining on where he might go.
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Maye is closer to Allen IMO.
Which means he's the most likley to be passed on and six and subsequently tear it up in the league.
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But he is the closest to Josh Allen in this class. Could JS and Dabs see it that way.
Maye is closer to Allen IMO.
Yeah Maye is absolutely much closer to Allen. I don't see the comparison between McCarthy and Allen at all. McCarthy played in a system that asked him to not lose the game.
I initially thought McCarthy was a late first, early second, round pick. I thought if was drafted in the top 15 it would be yet another example of teams over drafting a QB. But I now think he should be drafted top 15 - 20. He is a very good athlete, has a terrific arm, is accurate, and apparently has excellent processing speed. He's also only 21.
I still think he's a bit of a projection given that in many instances Michigan didn't seem to trust him to be more than a game manager who handed off and protected the ball with safe throws. But remember about 70% of Nix's throws were within 10 yards of the LOS and McCarthy has a much stronger arm IMO.
What will be really interesting is if McCarthy is taken ahead of Maye or Daniels.
Any intel out there about whether his teammates attended his 21st birthday party?
Which means he's the most likley to be passed on and six and subsequently tear it up in the league.
He may have all the talent needed to succeed in the NFL. He just never had to show that in college. He has the situation that people here want to build for Jones - great defense and dominant running game so the QB only has to be adequate. Maybe McCarthy doesn't need that at the NFL level, but I haven't seen him do enough in college to suggest that is true.
People are judging the Michigan offense as if they're breaking down McCarthy's arm talent, read process, reading the coverage, risk taking accuracy, and running ability off script. It's going to be exciting come Combine, pro days, and interview process.
Wolverines vs Buckeyes 2022 - ( New Window )
He may have all the talent needed to succeed in the NFL. He just never had to show that in college. He has the situation that people here want to build for Jones - great defense and dominant running game so the QB only has to be adequate. Maybe McCarthy doesn't need that at the NFL level, but I haven't seen him do enough in college to suggest that is true.
I may be confusing you with other members of the BBI QB Intelligentsia, but aren't you and certainly BW big proponents of the "scout QB traits, not stats" school of thought?
I personally, even as a Michigan fan, wouldn't touch JJ before the 2nd round and preferably 3rd. But watching him, I see a QB with a lot of plus if not plus plus traits. He's got a great arm (obviously not Elway/Allen, but who is?) and great mobility. He wasn't asked to do a whole lot and made some questionable decisions at times, but I would also argue that's just Harbaugh's offense and kind of always has been.
So I'm just curious what traits he definitively lacks that makes people cross him off? Physically, he's got it all. Mentally it's a question mark, but there's a huge difference between "hasn't had to do it" and "is incapable of doing it".
This is probably coming across as passive-aggressive, but I'm legitimately curious and asking in good faith. I don't love the guy, but I would think "traits hounds" would salivate at seeing what a guy with his combination of arm strength and mobility could be molded into by the right coaching staff.
If you put McCarthy on USC, LSU, Oregon, Washington, etc. he would have been asked to do more.
He would likely be in the Heisman discussion and more highly touted.
The same can be said that if Williams, Maye, Daniels, etc. were on Michigan, there would be doubters.
I think McCarthy is going to go much higher than any 2nd or 3rd round projection.
Or you had a crew who pushed for Kenny Pickett and Malik Willis (my god....).
IMV, lottery picks should be players who are vastly superior in terms of physical skills.
I could live with McCarthy later in the draft, but he does not possess the same package of physical attributes as Daniels, Maye and Williams. I think that's why there is pushback when McCarthy is elevated to the level of the top three.
If we took McCarthy on day two - or maybe trade up later in round one - I could live with it because I think that is fairer value based on his skills. And going late on day one or day two is still very complimentary of a prospect. You are one of the top 60+ players in the draft.
Can run, but he won't hold up long term if asked to run often. Thought his reads on read option were inconsistent. Tough and will play through injury.
Has arm talent but frustrates with accuracy at times (especially overthrows). Struggled with deep accuracy especially early in his career. Was great on 3rd and long and 4th downs, Jake Butt is correct in point that out.
Brings a winning mentality and top notch intangibles. Teammates loved him and was a winner dating back to high school. Some guys have it and he seems to.
Makes some wow throws, but also trusts his arm sometimes to a fault (throwing into traffic). Thought another year in college would have helped him, but understand he had nothing else to accomplish on that level.
Brings a winning mentality and top notch intangibles. Teammates loved him and was a winner dating back to high school. Some guys have it and he seems to.
So?
How do you know that translates to the NFL and will make an NFL team better? I have been hearing and reading about Jones's intangibles for five long years.
To me, I find those to be nothing more than hackneyed items for football romantics who think intangibles help teams win more than physical skills.
The main impression I get from JJ's highlights above is that he throws into tight windows very often, and his receivers do a great job on contected catches. And he is a better and tougher runner than you would expect. Maybe this is who Sy56 is referring to??
There's a reason so many physically gifted QBs don't do so well in the NFL. They don't have the it factor. Deny that if you want. Intangibles are what make it difficult to project success from college into the pros.
In 5 years, I rarely saw much praise of DJ's intangibles.
Think I will sit back and watch the QB draft issue as it unfolds.
This. I didn't watch a lot of Michigan football, and the little I saw JJ looked ordinary. I do recognize with the running game and defense Michigan had, they may have wanted to stay conservative in the passing game.
The one interesting thing I read about JJ was a statement that he had elite processing skills. If the Giants' research really confirms that, then I could understand taking him in round 1 - we need a good arm with an elite brain.
When he had to make plays with his arm he performed well like against Ohio St x2. He was playing with an ankle injury that hindered his ability to step into throws after the Penn st game. He throws incredibly well on the move.
He will bulk up for the NFL and I wouldn't be surprised if he does better in the NFL stats wise than in college. His efficiency numbers passing and on 3rd down are off the charts.
He had no special receivers to throw to and he played in an old school system based on controlling the clock, running the rock and solid defense.
He will go much earlier than people think, perhaps as early as the Broncos pick. I don't see it being reasonably possible to trade into the back of rd1 for him. Sean Payton could turn him into a great franchise qb imo. If Dabs and Schoen believed in him and took him at pick 6 then I'd be excited tbh. I personally would prefer Jayden Daniels but we would need to get fortunate for a chance at him I think.
6'-3" 210 lbs
McCarthy was a 5-star recruit coming out of high school.
McCarthy may be the fastest of the qbs having run a 4.48 forty.
He may have the strongest arm. Note in the video below that in 2020 he routinely threw the ball 80 yards in his warm-ups.
McCarthy injured his labrum in 2022 but played through the injury. This past year he injured his ankle and played through it. Both injuries impacted his throwing and running.
I have been watching more of McCarthy's games and I am coming away very impressed.
He comes from a pro-style offense where he needs to read and react.
He can run.
He continually extends plays when they break down.
He throws off the platform.
He makes all throws.
He has a great release.
He is accurate.
He can manage a game
He is tough and plays through injuries.
He just turned 21
and he is a winner
Link - ( New Window )
Good post. I forgot to mention the injured Labrum last year. He is literally 1
25 years younger than Caleb Williams. Kids potential is sky high and I love his mentality. He is a gamer. My top 5 rankings of QB prospects are as follows:
1. Jayden Daniels
2. CW
3. Drake Maye
4. JJ McCarthy
5. Michael Pennix Jr
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In comment 16393719 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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But he is the closest to Josh Allen in this class. Could JS and Dabs see it that way.
I think he has more Mahomes attributes than Allen. Not saying he's the next great one, but I do think he has those abilities.
Are you two kidding mentioning Mahomes and Allen on this thread?
Reminds me of a combination of Marino, Montana, and Staubach.
I don't see how you can draft a QB on day 1 that didn't light it up in college. Their offense was run first, run second, throw short third.
No one, including the professionals, knows how college QBs will translate to the NFL. So much of a young QBs chances are dependent on the coaching staff he's with. Hopefully the Giants can pick a QB that Daboll can coach up quickly. Quickly in my mind means two years.
If any of you saw Josh Allen as a rookie and said he'd develop to a HOF level you're lying. He threw like Nuke Laloosh on the Durham Bulls his rookie season.
Just a wild thought, and I have no idea how that would affect LACs cap.
And while I understand Harbaugh's decision to put the games in the hands of his defense and his running game, doesn't that speak to at least some extent to the confidence Harbaugh hand in JJ? If when the chips are down, a coach rarely asks the QB to put the team on his shoulders, that's an indictment of the QB.
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Brings a winning mentality and top notch intangibles. Teammates loved him and was a winner dating back to high school. Some guys have it and he seems to.
So?
How do you know that translates to the NFL and will make an NFL team better? I have been hearing and reading about Jones's intangibles for five long years.
To me, I find those to be nothing more than hackneyed items for football romantics who think intangibles help teams win more than physical skills.
Not sure what this has to do with Daniel Jones.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
The main impression I get from JJ's highlights above is that he throws into tight windows very often, and his receivers do a great job on contected catches. And he is a better and tougher runner than you would expect. Maybe this is who Sy56 is referring to??
I could see the Patriots taking JJ McCarthy as a surprise pick. I know one poster said his connected buddy claimed Nix is their 2nd rated qb, but McCarthy would make a lot more sense and if he ended up being the goods then they'd look like geniuses. Going back to the old Michigan oil well to bring it back. He's used to playing with below average receivers and could fit right in on the Patriots. Wouldn't that be something.
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
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and it shows
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
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In comment 16394071 Sy'56 said:
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and it shows
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
My real concern with McCarthy is that the offense seemed to be a lot of one read or check it down. I am not sure if that is just John Harbaugh (he ran a similar style of offense with Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick) or the result of him trying to work within McCarthy's limits. It is frustrating as an observer (and I bet moreso for someone like you who does it professionally) that college teams just don't run pro style offenses.
Stick around? You registered this month.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
I have heard you mention that on a podcast before. You were with a guy who was a huge Michigan fan and he was drooling over McCarthy. Despite that, I don't recall you having a high grade on McCarthy during that show.
If you have had a change of mind, I look forward to you having him #1 on your board.
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In comment 16394093 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16394071 Sy'56 said:
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and it shows
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
My real concern with McCarthy is that the offense seemed to be a lot of one read or check it down. I am not sure if that is just John Harbaugh (he ran a similar style of offense with Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick) or the result of him trying to work within McCarthy's limits. It is frustrating as an observer (and I bet moreso for someone like you who does it professionally) that college teams just don't run pro style offenses.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Michigan's scheme was one of the more pro style offenses in CFB albeit an old school style predicated on run game, clock control, avoiding turnovers and sound defense. I think he ran nearly the same offense at Michigan as he did in the NFL. The rpo plays are usually with one read, but he goes through progressions well in traditional drop backs from what I've seen. I can't say he had elite processing as some claim, but it definitely doesn't appear to be a deficiency in his game.
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One of the big reasons I stick around.
Stick around? You registered this month.
I've been here since 2005, we have had many good conversations and our perspectives are often very resonant.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Michigan's scheme was one of the more pro style offenses in CFB albeit an old school style predicated on run game, clock control, avoiding turnovers and sound defense. I think he ran nearly the same offense at Michigan as he did in the NFL. The rpo plays are usually with one read, but he goes through progressions well in traditional drop backs from what I've seen. I can't say he had elite processing as some claim, but it definitely doesn't appear to be a deficiency in his game.
How do you know McCarthy goes "through progressions well"? Based on what?
If McCarthy is this elite talent that many are trying to sell, then Harbaugh should trade Herbert and draft him at #5.
Harbaugh could get a boatload for Herbert and reset with the rookie deal. Do you think he will do that?
I mean, Harbaugh knows him the best, right? Will Harbaugh be making if he doesn't draft McCarthy?
Not sure what this has to do with Daniel Jones.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
Well, it seems plenty of posters are enamored with McCarthy's intangibles. And I've been hearing that about Jones for five years, especially since he was drafted. My point? How does that matter in the projection of a prospect? How do you measure that to see how it translate to NFL success?
Okay, so McCarthy wins a lot in high school and college. Are you suggesting we apply more weigh to that variable than his physical ability? I mean, I guess it means something, but all of these highly rated high school prospects go to good football schools and those schools continue to have good records.
All of I have said is that McCarthy does not have the physical skill package as the top three. Otherwise, I would include him that discussion. To me, he looks like a very good college QB who played for a great head coach who recruited a ton of good players that made McCarthy's situation optimal for success. And he has some interesting skills.
I see a McCarthy type nearly every year in the draft.
Hypothetically, that would be great.
Of course, that assumes we would take a Maye if he fell into our lap...
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Michigan's scheme was one of the more pro style offenses in CFB albeit an old school style predicated on run game, clock control, avoiding turnovers and sound defense. I think he ran nearly the same offense at Michigan as he did in the NFL. The rpo plays are usually with one read, but he goes through progressions well in traditional drop backs from what I've seen. I can't say he had elite processing as some claim, but it definitely doesn't appear to be a deficiency in his game.
How do you know McCarthy goes "through progressions well"? Based on what?
If McCarthy is this elite talent that many are trying to sell, then Harbaugh should trade Herbert and draft him at #5.
Harbaugh could get a boatload for Herbert and reset with the rookie deal. Do you think he will do that?
I mean, Harbaugh knows him the best, right? Will Harbaugh be making if he doesn't draft McCarthy?
"From what I've seen he goes through progressions well in traditional dropbacks". I do see some claim he had elite processing, but I don't have the ability to analyze that and im not going that far. I just see him go through multiple reads rather quickly and make a decision in a timely manner, going to his 2nd or 3rd or sometimes 4th option.
You misread Sy's comment I think. He said JJ is qb1 when it comes to his stats under pressure. That doesn't mean he will be ranked qb1 for Sy. Although, JJ's qb1 rating when under pressure definitely suggests his processing is above average and definitely not a flaw in his game as it was with DJ. I will always remember Sy's prophetic analysis of DJ predraft saying he didn't have the quick mind needed to be a good nfl qb. That is DJ's biggest issue and I don't think it's similar for JJ.
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That would be very helpful.
Hypothetically, that would be great.
Of course, that assumes we would take a Maye if he fell into our lap...
I guess. Unless Schoen pulls the trigger and spends two 1sts and a 2nd rounder to move up and draft JJ overall #1.
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In comment 16394071 Sy'56 said:
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and it shows
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
And that's the thing, as the season went on, it was apparent that Michigan had less than stellar offensive tackle play, which was a big reason why they leaned on the running game. But he was more than just a game manager, he's completely capable of delivering big plays when need be.
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In comment 16394071 Sy'56 said:
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and it shows
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
Interesting. Ourlads has him at #45 in the mock draft. Does your view of him diverge from the rest of them there, or do they just feel he will go that low?
Stats vs. pressure and quick processing would be key traits for Schoen and Daboll one would think. I like Nabers and some of the edges, but my gut tells me it's JJ.
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Not sure what this has to do with Daniel Jones.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
Well, it seems plenty of posters are enamored with McCarthy's intangibles. And I've been hearing that about Jones for five years, especially since he was drafted. My point? How does that matter in the projection of a prospect? How do you measure that to see how it translate to NFL success?
Okay, so McCarthy wins a lot in high school and college. Are you suggesting we apply more weigh to that variable than his physical ability? I mean, I guess it means something, but all of these highly rated high school prospects go to good football schools and those schools continue to have good records.
All of I have said is that McCarthy does not have the physical skill package as the top three. Otherwise, I would include him that discussion. To me, he looks like a very good college QB who played for a great head coach who recruited a ton of good players that made McCarthy's situation optimal for success. And he has some interesting skills.
I see a McCarthy type nearly every year in the draft.
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
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Not sure what this has to do with Daniel Jones.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
Well, it seems plenty of posters are enamored with McCarthy's intangibles. And I've been hearing that about Jones for five years, especially since he was drafted. My point? How does that matter in the projection of a prospect? How do you measure that to see how it translate to NFL success?
Okay, so McCarthy wins a lot in high school and college. Are you suggesting we apply more weigh to that variable than his physical ability? I mean, I guess it means something, but all of these highly rated high school prospects go to good football schools and those schools continue to have good records.
All of I have said is that McCarthy does not have the physical skill package as the top three. Otherwise, I would include him that discussion. To me, he looks like a very good college QB who played for a great head coach who recruited a ton of good players that made McCarthy's situation optimal for success. And he has some interesting skills.
I see a McCarthy type nearly every year in the draft.
As a casual fan watching JJ, I didn't see anything jump out at me either. My perspective changed after watching all 22s and studying him more. The injuries that hindered him in '22 and '23 are very real. The lack of offensive skill position talent is very real. His mentality for qb is qb1 to me. He is extremely athletic, I wouldn't be surprised if he is close to top of the charts on overall RAS score. He has a very strong arm and is very smart. He is qb1 in terms of stats under pressure. I believe his football iq is very high and he is extremely coachable.
I don't agree with the comparisons to DJ at all. JJ is vastly superior as an athlete and in nearly every way and JJ have a slow mind like DJ does imo. I can't get the inside perspective NFL front offices can, but I could see JJ being taken as qb2 if he shows vastly superior football iq while also testing off the charts at the combine.
Bw, you and I actually shared many discussions on how McCarthy wasn't impressive during the cfb season. I had the same opinion as you during the cfb season, but I hadn't done any research and didn't really know anything about him other than stats and watching some games on TV. Upon further review, my opinion completely changed on JJ. I'm glad it did because I was thinking we were screwed without some luck in this draft to get Maye or CW or JD.
Id be very excited if Dabs and Schoen like what JJ does in interviews, the combine etc along with believing in his talents. JJ could be potentially be like a taller and more athletic version of Russell Wilson.
You misread Sy's comment I think. He said JJ is qb1 when it comes to his stats under pressure. That doesn't mean he will be ranked qb1 for Sy. Although, JJ's qb1 rating when under pressure definitely suggests his processing is above average and definitely not a flaw in his game as it was with DJ. I will always remember Sy's prophetic analysis of DJ predraft saying he didn't have the quick mind needed to be a good nfl qb. That is DJ's biggest issue and I don't think it's similar for JJ.
I didn't misread it. I was being a little tongue in cheek.
I really don't know what dealing with pressure in college means in terms of dealing with pressure in the NFL. The complexity of NFL defenses is PhD stuff compared to the vanilla Ds most face in college.
I would certainly be curious what goes into that pressure stat to arrive at a conclusion. For example:
Where did the pass go? Was it a check down? Did the receiver make actually make the play work with a good catch? Was the defense personnel actually good? Was the throw to an open receiver? What was the depth of the catch? Was the play between the numbers? Etc.
Our opinions are based on our limited observations and research.
I do not know how people can be so set in their opinions.
I think that McCarthy has demonstrated some admirable traits and has prerequisite attributes.
I cannot tell you if he is a better prospect than the other QBs. What I can say is that he should be in the Giants' discussion when they draft a QB.
Also, even the NFL teams will have differing opinions based on what they want their QBs to be and to do.
For some to trash McCarthy or try and degrade him is ridiculous.
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In comment 16394093 BleedBlue46 said:
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One of the big reasons I stick around.
Stick around? You registered this month.
I've been here since 2005, we have had many good conversations and our perspectives are often very resonant.
Fair enough. I figured you were saying like you were planning to bail after a week.
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
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You misread Sy's comment I think. He said JJ is qb1 when it comes to his stats under pressure. That doesn't mean he will be ranked qb1 for Sy. Although, JJ's qb1 rating when under pressure definitely suggests his processing is above average and definitely not a flaw in his game as it was with DJ. I will always remember Sy's prophetic analysis of DJ predraft saying he didn't have the quick mind needed to be a good nfl qb. That is DJ's biggest issue and I don't think it's similar for JJ.
I didn't misread it. I was being a little tongue in cheek.
I really don't know what dealing with pressure in college means in terms of dealing with pressure in the NFL. The complexity of NFL defenses is PhD stuff compared to the vanilla Ds most face in college.
I would certainly be curious what goes into that pressure stat to arrive at a conclusion. For example:
Where did the pass go? Was it a check down? Did the receiver make actually make the play work with a good catch? Was the defense personnel actually good? Was the throw to an open receiver? What was the depth of the catch? Was the play between the numbers? Etc.
"McCarthy was 48 of 77 (62.3%) with eight TDs and three interceptions under pressure, and he was 78 of 112 (69.6%) for 1,144 yards, six TDs and three interceptions when blitzed."
14.7yds per completion seems with 70% completion percentage seems like he punished teams when he was blitzed. This points toward being quick minded, spotting blitzes and making defenses pay for blitzing him. He lit up top defenses like the 22 osu defense. CW looked below average against good defenses, while JJ shined. Just an interesting point to note, I will repeat his age is about 1.25 years younger than CW too.
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I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
The mentality definitely matters immensely albeit this is one of the hardest aspects to project with prospects. He is a winner and that's important. The parts of his A+ mentality that I find to be very important in evaluation is how he played under pressure, in big games and how he seemed unphased by mistakes or things not going his way. He has an old soul centerdness about him that is absolutely crucial for success in the NFL.
Our opinions are based on our limited observations and research.
I do not know how people can be so set in their opinions.
I think that McCarthy has demonstrated some admirable traits and has prerequisite attributes.
I cannot tell you if he is a better prospect than the other QBs. What I can say is that he should be in the Giants' discussion when they draft a QB.
Also, even the NFL teams will have differing opinions based on what they want their QBs to be and to do.
For some to trash McCarthy or try and degrade him is ridiculous.
I agree we don't know everything. But who does? Scouts don't, either. This, IMV, is far more art than science.
I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
No one, including the professionals, knows how college QBs will translate to the NFL. So much of a young QBs chances are dependent on the coaching staff he's with. Hopefully the Giants can pick a QB that Daboll can coach up quickly. Quickly in my mind means two years.
If any of you saw Josh Allen as a rookie and said he'd develop to a HOF level you're lying. He threw like Nuke Laloosh on the Durham Bulls his rookie season.
The day after the Bills drafted Allen, I texted my friend, Larry, who is a huge Bills fan, and said "Allen is gong to be a monster!"
HOPE ITS NOT SCHOEN!!!!!
The mentality definitely matters immensely albeit this is one of the hardest aspects to project with prospects. He is a winner and that's important. The parts of his A+ mentality that I find to be very important in evaluation is how he played under pressure, in big games and how he seemed unphased by mistakes or things not going his way. He has an old soul centerdness about him that is absolutely crucial for success in the NFL.
Again, basically every highly ranked high school player goes to a top tier school. So, being a part of winning program - thus, you are a "winner" - doesn't bowl me over as some special attribute. But that's just me.
Re: McCarthy having "an old soul centerdness that is absolutely crucial..." Whatever you say, W.B. Yeats. ;)
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Can we agree that we collectively know nothing about these QBs?
Our opinions are based on our limited observations and research.
I do not know how people can be so set in their opinions.
I think that McCarthy has demonstrated some admirable traits and has prerequisite attributes.
I cannot tell you if he is a better prospect than the other QBs. What I can say is that he should be in the Giants' discussion when they draft a QB.
Also, even the NFL teams will have differing opinions based on what they want their QBs to be and to do.
For some to trash McCarthy or try and degrade him is ridiculous.
I agree we don't know everything. But who does? Scouts don't, either. This, IMV, is far more art than science.
I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
solid sammary
I don't know how you got that comparison. Wilson was a gimmick QB in the NFL who had one year of starting at BYU. McCarthy played at Michigan in a pro style offense. Very different QB's.
After watching those throws I am beginning to like McCarthy as an option for the Giants. The issue is is #6 too high?
I can't see him ahead of any of top 3 for that reason. Doesn't mean some team's scouts and coach won't fall in love with him and project him as QB2 or QB3. I just don't think there is enough for us laypeople to see it.
I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
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I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
Fair, I think we all may have Daniel Jones PTSD at this point.
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I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
McCarthy isn’t faster than Daniels.
McCarthy still struggles with the deep ball.
His arm is not the strongest.
The last two don’t translate to the NFL.
McCarthy isn’t faster than Daniels.
McCarthy still struggles with the deep ball.
His arm is not the strongest.
The last two don’t translate to the NFL.
McCarthy's arm is definitely above average strength wise.
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McCarthy isn’t faster than Daniels.
McCarthy still struggles with the deep ball.
His arm is not the strongest.
The last two don’t translate to the NFL.
McCarthy's arm is definitely above average strength wise.
Yeah it is. But I think there are a few like Williams and Maye who have bigger arms. I think Penix does as well.
Lot of QBs can sling it in this draft.
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I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
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I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
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In comment 16394179 RawhideMarshall said:
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I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
But are we really good at deciding which intangibles matter? You only point to two busts, but there are others who didn't go bust. Did Aaron Rodgers show great intangibles?
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In comment 16394179 RawhideMarshall said:
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I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
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Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research.
Link - ( New Window )
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
Wow. You should probably let some NFL front offices know you've found the secret to rating QBs since processing ability has to be one of the most important abilities a QB can possess, if not the absolute most important. Surely eliminating guys who can't process the field would go a long way to drafting that special QB we all want.
Also, I would argue that most QBs who flame out of the NFL fail because of intangibles. Not too many guys with noodle arms are getting drafted, but every year we see guys with howitzers who can fly on the field flame out at QB.
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In comment 16394274 Manhattan said:
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Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
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McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
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I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
Wow. You should probably let some NFL front offices know you've found the secret to rating QBs since processing ability has to be one of the most important abilities a QB can possess, if not the absolute most important. Surely eliminating guys who can't process the field would go a long way to drafting that special QB we all want.
Also, I would argue that most QBs who flame out of the NFL fail because of intangibles. Not too many guys with noodle arms are getting drafted, but every year we see guys with howitzers who can fly on the field flame out at QB.
I think you should reread my post. I didn't say processing is unimportant, actually quite the opposite. I said it's a basic trait of the position, in my view, not an intangible.
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In comment 16394283 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
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In comment 16394274 Manhattan said:
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Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
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In comment 16394288 Manhattan said:
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In comment 16394283 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
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In comment 16394274 Manhattan said:
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Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
I will say that the QB position is unique in the sense that items that would be “intangibles” at other positions are important at QB. If you are doing well or doing poorly the media will flock to the QB. You listen to Mahomes he will never take the credit when they are doing well and when they are slumping it isn’t his WR’s fault for dropping the ball or lining up offsides, it is his (Mahomes’s) fault for not lining them up correctly, not throwing a more catchable ball, etc. Even when talking about the opponent he never gives bulletin board material.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
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On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
My personal opinion, and others can differ, is that there is a certain level of intangibles a QB needs to be successful. It is a yes or no question and if the answer is no they should not be on your board as a Day 1 or 2 guy regardless of physical attributes. If the answer is yes whether they barely make the threshold or are off the board high does not matter so long as they meet that threshold.
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In comment 16394306 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16394288 Manhattan said:
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Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
I will say that the QB position is unique in the sense that items that would be “intangibles” at other positions are important at QB. If you are doing well or doing poorly the media will flock to the QB. You listen to Mahomes he will never take the credit when they are doing well and when they are slumping it isn’t his WR’s fault for dropping the ball or lining up offsides, it is his (Mahomes’s) fault for not lining them up correctly, not throwing a more catchable ball, etc. Even when talking about the opponent he never gives bulletin board material.
Mahomes is incredible. He seems like a great dude in top of being a great player. But what about a guy like Rodgers, who seems like a giant asshole, yet he's great on the field and players love him and he seems to be a good football leader. I'm not saying intangibles aren't important but they are hard to define, hard to measure, and don't seem to be a prerequisite for greatness. Lots of good dudes with excellent intangibles, who aren't any good at football.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
Okay. You are certainly a big McCarthy fan. Would to take him first if you were the Bears?
Just some additional comments to what you wrote:
Throwing the ball far doesn't equal arm talent. If I have to explain the differences, then we have to start from scratch.
Yeah, reading that linebacker and safety on those RPOs is PhD stuff at the college-level.
Being a winner, tough and playing hurt doesn't really move the needle for me as great separators vis-a-vis other QBs.
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In comment 16394310 Manhattan said:
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In comment 16394306 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16394288 Manhattan said:
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Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
I don't consider processing to be an intangible. It's a basic trait of the position. To me intangibles are "leadership", "character", "good with media", "hard working", etc. Processing to me goes along with arm talent, pocket awareness, mechanics, off-platform ability.
I think “leadership” and “hard working” belong in the latter category. If you are not a leader your teammates will not help you out. See Jeff George. You also can’t rest on your laurels as a QB or any position because someone will find a weakness and exploit it.
If you think those are basic traits, rather than intangibles, I'm ok with that. But processing is not an intangible, in my opinion. It's fundamental to the position.
I will say that the QB position is unique in the sense that items that would be “intangibles” at other positions are important at QB. If you are doing well or doing poorly the media will flock to the QB. You listen to Mahomes he will never take the credit when they are doing well and when they are slumping it isn’t his WR’s fault for dropping the ball or lining up offsides, it is his (Mahomes’s) fault for not lining them up correctly, not throwing a more catchable ball, etc. Even when talking about the opponent he never gives bulletin board material.
Mahomes is incredible. He seems like a great dude in top of being a great player. But what about a guy like Rodgers, who seems like a giant asshole, yet he's great on the field and players love him and he seems to be a good football leader. I'm not saying intangibles aren't important but they are hard to define, hard to measure, and don't seem to be a prerequisite for greatness. Lots of good dudes with excellent intangibles, who aren't any good at football.
Because people overrate intangibles. As I said in my prior post responding to bw, if they meet the threshold of intangibles needed to be a successful QB I do not believe any incremental increase will result in better play if it is coming at the expense of tangible tools.
I am not saying that Williams does not have a strong arm.
McCarthy's arm is as strong if not stronger. The throws that I posted were from high school.
McCarthy was known by all of the high school scouts that he and Milton had the strongest arms. They also had the greatest velocity on their throws.
They would line up at the 20 and take turns throwing the ball threw the uprights.
Remember this is when McCarthy was 180 lbs and still growing.
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
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McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
Okay. You are certainly a big McCarthy fan. Would to take him first if you were the Bears?
Just some additional comments to what you wrote:
Throwing the ball far doesn't equal arm talent. If I have to explain the differences, then we have to start from scratch.
Yeah, reading that linebacker and safety on those RPOs is PhD stuff at the college-level.
Being a winner, tough and playing hurt doesn't really move the needle for me as great separators vis-a-vis other QBs.
Just looking at college record doesn’t move the needle to me. However, a QB has to want to finish each NFL season 20-0. Otherwise you get a Jameis Winston who likes to pad his stats but really doesn’t look like he cares if it translates to wins on the field so long as he is getting paid.
I am not saying that Williams does not have a strong arm.
McCarthy's arm is as strong if not stronger. The throws that I posted were from high school.
McCarthy was known by all of the high school scouts that he and Milton had the strongest arms. They also had the greatest velocity on their throws.
They would line up at the 20 and take turns throwing the ball threw the uprights.
Remember this is when McCarthy was 180 lbs and still growing.
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I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
Since we are just making stuff up...
Spencer Rattler is so fast he can run back in time
Spencer Rattler once threw a ball through a tank
Spencer Rattler built a functional nuclear reactor when he was 7
Spencer Rattler eliminated childhood poverty through the sheer force of his will
I'd go Rattler before I go McCarthy.
Just looking at college record doesn’t move the needle to me. However, a QB has to want to finish each NFL season 20-0. Otherwise you get a Jameis Winston who likes to pad his stats but really doesn’t look like he cares if it translates to wins on the field so long as he is getting paid.
Again, I'm not underestimating that it's important to get under the head of prospect's mind. That certainly has value.
But so many of these kids these days are very well trained/rehearsed to know what to say in the interview process. Their agents/agencies want to make sure that box is checked...
Even so, until you are with a person day after day, week after week, month after month - you get the point - there really is no way to fully know what you are getting as a person. That is a very hard thing to project, especially going from programs that win in college to an NFL team that is at rock bottom.
Knowing game processing is part of the position is different from being able to measure it.
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McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
Okay. You are certainly a big McCarthy fan. Would to take him first if you were the Bears?
Just some additional comments to what you wrote:
Throwing the ball far doesn't equal arm talent. If I have to explain the differences, then we have to start from scratch.
Yeah, reading that linebacker and safety on those RPOs is PhD stuff at the college-level.
Being a winner, tough and playing hurt doesn't really move the needle for me as great separators vis-a-vis other QBs.
Everyone agrees on the top 3 QBs are going 1,2,3 in the draft. He's going to be the 4th QB picked, and look at the draft order.
All of these teams need a young QB and could get him, and don't forget the 5th year option they get if he's drafted in the 1st round. He's 21 years old. The 5th year option is huge for such a young QB with his tool set.
8 - Atlanta
10 - NY Jets
11 - Minnesota
12 - Denver
13 - Las Vegas
14 - New Orleans
16 - Seattle
Daniels may time better at the combine but his best recorded time in the 40 is 4.50
McCarthy has been timed at 4.48
"ahead of his first start for Michigan last season, McCarthy was consistently timed between 4.5 and 4.4 seconds. Oct 15, 2023 "
McCarthy said that he’s improved his 40-yard dash from being in the 4.8s and now believes he is in the 4.4s or 4.5s. McCarthy credits strength and conditioning coach Ben Herbert with getting his speed down, and co-offensive coordinator/quarterbacks coach Matt Weiss with helping him become a more dangerous runner.
Should McCarthy go #1 to the Bears?
Or if he is there at #5, and Harbaugh knows him well, should the Chargers take him, trade Herbert for a ton of assets, and reset on the rookie contract?
Everyone agrees on the top 3 QBs are going 1,2,3 in the draft. He's going to be the 4th QB picked, and look at the draft order.
All of these teams need a young QB and could get him, and don't forget the 5th year option they get if he's drafted in the 1st round. He's 21 years old. The 5th year option is huge for such a young QB with his tool set.
I could see McCarthy being in the running for the 4th spot.
The age is a factor to a degree. Raw talent matters more to me. But I get your point. Fashanu has the same age "advantage" for LT.
Either draft a top prospect at a position of need (now, or next year), or trade the draft slot for a ton of picks.
Harbaugh not drafting JJM would not be indicative of confidence level of JJM in the NFL. IF Harbaugh needs a QB and passes on JJM, then there's a conversation to be had.
I dislike it when people make uninformed assessments of players.
My comments are responding to misinformation that has been bandied on the site.
It is not accurate to say that McCarthy is not a great athlete. You can criticize for many things but there is empirical data that cannot be refuted.
I do not know what makes a great QB. Many subjective elements cannot be quantified.
Either draft a top prospect at a position of need (now, or next year), or trade the draft slot for a ton of picks.
Harbaugh not drafting JJM would not be indicative of confidence level of JJM in the NFL. IF Harbaugh needs a QB and passes on JJM, then there's a conversation to be had.
I was/am trying to get a feel for just how highly Archer views McCarthy.
I absolutely wouldn't waste a second thinking about trading Herbert to reset with McCarthy.
I am - thanks.
I am not saying that Williams does not have a strong arm.
McCarthy's arm is as strong if not stronger. The throws that I posted were from high school.
McCarthy was known by all of the high school scouts that he and Milton had the strongest arms. They also had the greatest velocity on their throws.
They would line up at the 20 and take turns throwing the ball threw the uprights.
Remember this is when McCarthy was 180 lbs and still growing.
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I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions.
A 7 step run up and jump will give you more distance than a typical step into a throw. That's just physics.
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You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
I have heard you mention that on a podcast before. You were with a guy who was a huge Michigan fan and he was drooling over McCarthy. Despite that, I don't recall you having a high grade on McCarthy during that show.
If you have had a change of mind, I look forward to you having him #1 on your board.
I hadn't studied McCarthy in depth when it came to film study at that point. I thought there was a shot he would go back to school.
He has since moved up.
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In comment 16394093 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16394071 Sy'56 said:
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and it shows
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
Interesting. Ourlads has him at #45 in the mock draft. Does your view of him diverge from the rest of them there, or do they just feel he will go that low?
Stats vs. pressure and quick processing would be key traits for Schoen and Daboll one would think. I like Nabers and some of the edges, but my gut tells me it's JJ.
That mock was pre-McCarthy film study and yes, I have to somewhat tailor the Ourlads Mock to the staff rankings.
To my eye McCarthy doesn't look like he trusts what he's seeing, and is slow to deliver the ball as a result. Sounds like you've seen otherwise?
I will say this though --it is telling that JJ has elected to come out after three seasons compared to the four or five of Penix, Daniels, and Nix.
McCarthy has first-round arm talent and can beat defenses with his legs too. He ranked third in the country in Total QBR (89.2) and completion percentage (72.3%) in 2023. Since he took over as the Wolverines' starter in 2022, he threw 44 touchdown passes and nine interceptions. Five of those INTs have come in two games, however; he threw three against Bowling Green earlier in 2023, and he had two pick-sixes in the College Football Playoff semifinal loss to TCU last season. Outside of those two games, he has managed games effectively and made great decisions with the football.
I recently projected McCarthy in the middle of Round 1 in my debut mock draft, and I think he will put up great testing numbers at the combine. Sure, he averaged just 22.1 pass attempts per game in 2023 and only needed to complete 10 passes in the national title game, but his upside is immense.
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I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
All true, however there is one thing I have not read about JJ that I also know is true, his teammates all love him! Even when he was in HS he became Michigan’s lead recruiter having other guys join him. That’s something that should not be overlooked.
No endorsement on my part. Just reporting what the coach said.
Better than Brady? Jim Harbaugh's praise for JJ McCarthy might not be hyperbole - ( New Window )
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I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
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McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions. Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
Thar was 60 yards from the 25 to the 15, here is a 55 yard howitzer from JJ
Link - ( New Window )
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I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
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McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions. Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
On this throw he goes 40 yards deep and 40 yards across the field making it at least 55 yards and on a line the kid can throw with the best of them and he can definitely put on 20-30lbs as his body is still growing just turned 21:
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 16394295 Archer said:
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I posted previously a video of McCarthy warming up in high school throwing a ball from the 20 into the back of the endzone.
I follow high school football and McCarthy and Milton were known to have the two strongest arms in their class. The wowed at the high school combine.
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McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
Perhaps you should do more research. Link - ( New Window )
I guess that's good. He takes a 7 yard running start. Can he put up some game tape with big throws? Here's Williams' 65 air yard throw, which isn't a looper and lands in the basket, under game conditions, no running start. I haven't seen anything in McCarthy's film that's close to this. And I'm not saying you don't love Williams too but I think if we are to conclude McCarthy has an arm on par with Williams, he has to do it in a game.
I don't know if it is accurate but more than one observer has said, of QBs playing today, only Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers have thrown it that far under game conditions. Caleb Williams Shows Off the CANNON on 75-yard TD Pass - ( New Window )
Thar was 60 yards from the 25 to the 15, here is a 55 yard howitzer from JJ Link - ( New Window )
The throw was from the 16. I think it is telling that you are comparing a 50 yard throw to a 65 yard throw. You're basically admitting my point. McCarthy doesn't have any throws that big on tape.
I think you should reread my post. I didn't say processing is unimportant, actually quite the opposite. I said it's a basic trait of the position, in my view, not an intangible.
We agree on the importance of processing speed and ability and I completely understood your post. At this point I'm just pretty sure you don't know what the terms "tangible" and "intangible" actually mean. It has nothing to do with how vital an ability is to performing the position, but how well that ability can be measured. Things like arm strength, running speed, agility, height, weight, etc are all tangible qualities. They can be accurately measured and quantified. They are tangible.
Things like leadership ability, work ethic, having a "will to win", and, I would argue things like the ability to sense pressure or process the field are much harder to measure directly. They are essentially unquantifiable. Intangible.
A QB's coaches with full knowledge of their offensive system and the read progressions can watch plays and tell you how well and quickly a player can generally process the field, but not a single person sitting on the couch watching TV or even pouring over hours of Youtube videos or All 22 film will know with 100% certainty a lot of the information needed to try to quantify processing ability. You can maybe come up with an educated guess, and sometimes it might be obvious if a QB is consistently missing open guys like Jones seems to, but it's still not a really measurable data point.
The S2 test may be a breakthrough in that area, but I think we'll need to see exactly how applicable it is to football specifically and playing QB even more specifically. I don't think the body of data is there yet to say definitively one way or the other how accurate an assessment it is, but hopefully we'll know soon enough.
Knowing game processing is part of the position is different from being able to measure it.
Or this, much more succinctly put post haha
evergreen comment for just about any rookie qb. can/could have said the same about lawrence, tua, bryce young, hurts, lamar, josh allen, mahomes, fields, etc.
herbert may be the only who looks to have been so traditionally talented that he stood out despite the situation, but not unlike mccarthy was held back in college by the system he played in (cristobal's wet dream is ironically the UM offense).
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On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
Sure. I guess I just think most of the guys even up for debate have relatively similar physical skills. Obviously there are outliers and you want the Herbert/Allen/Mahomes type of unicorn if you can get him. I just doubt there's really that huge a spread.
For argument's sake, I just browsed the list of NFL Combine Throw velocities of the last 10 years. The slowest I found was Deshaun Watson at 45 (tied withsomeone I never heard of in the same class). Josh Allen (and Dorian Thomson-Robinson) at 62. Much larger than I would have guessed. Most QBs (including Mahomes at 55mph) measure in the mid to high 50s. That's just one small measurable, but it would appear as long as you're in the neighborhood of 55mph, you should be golden.
I think once you get to that baseline physical talent, it's the intangibles that set most of the great QBs apart from the benchwarmers.
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In comment 16394270 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
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On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
I get it.
I'm not saying toss the intangibles, but they shouldn't be on the same level - IMO - as the physical skills.
Sure. I guess I just think most of the guys even up for debate have relatively similar physical skills. Obviously there are outliers and you want the Herbert/Allen/Mahomes type of unicorn if you can get him. I just doubt there's really that huge a spread.
For argument's sake, I just browsed the list of NFL Combine Throw velocities of the last 10 years. The slowest I found was Deshaun Watson at 45 (tied withsomeone I never heard of in the same class). Josh Allen (and Dorian Thomson-Robinson) at 62. Much larger than I would have guessed. Most QBs (including Mahomes at 55mph) measure in the mid to high 50s. That's just one small measurable, but it would appear as long as you're in the neighborhood of 55mph, you should be golden.
I think once you get to that baseline physical talent, it's the intangibles that set most of the great QBs apart from the benchwarmers.
Agreed, you'd think NFL front offices would be using high tech simulators to analyze in game processing speed. It wouldn't be as accurate as real in game processing with real 250-350lb guys in your face, but I'd imagine it would provide some better Intel.