I know McCarthy is a bit of a lightning rod on here with plenty of detractors, but you can't question his arm strength and ability to throw the ball off platform. McCarthy making plays - ( New Window )
were able to draft him without using the 6th pick. I like what I saw on TV.
No one, including the professionals, knows how college QBs will translate to the NFL. So much of a young QBs chances are dependent on the coaching staff he's with. Hopefully the Giants can pick a QB that Daboll can coach up quickly. Quickly in my mind means two years.
If any of you saw Josh Allen as a rookie and said he'd develop to a HOF level you're lying. He threw like Nuke Laloosh on the Durham Bulls his rookie season.
are his accuracy and his long throwing motion, either of which could be disasters in the NFL.
And while I understand Harbaugh's decision to put the games in the hands of his defense and his running game, doesn't that speak to at least some extent to the confidence Harbaugh hand in JJ? If when the chips are down, a coach rarely asks the QB to put the team on his shoulders, that's an indictment of the QB.
Brings a winning mentality and top notch intangibles. Teammates loved him and was a winner dating back to high school. Some guys have it and he seems to.
So?
How do you know that translates to the NFL and will make an NFL team better? I have been hearing and reading about Jones's intangibles for five long years.
To me, I find those to be nothing more than hackneyed items for football romantics who think intangibles help teams win more than physical skills.
Not sure what this has to do with Daniel Jones.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
RE: Interesting highlights compared to Jayden Daniels.
When watching Jayden Daniels highlights, the top impression was his receivers always seemed to be open by 5 yards. Even in tougher games like Missouri. Of course he threw and ran well, but I don't ever recall seeing so many receivers so totally wide open for their QB.
The main impression I get from JJ's highlights above is that he throws into tight windows very often, and his receivers do a great job on contected catches. And he is a better and tougher runner than you would expect. Maybe this is who Sy56 is referring to??
I could see the Patriots taking JJ McCarthy as a surprise pick. I know one poster said his connected buddy claimed Nix is their 2nd rated qb, but McCarthy would make a lot more sense and if he ended up being the goods then they'd look like geniuses. Going back to the old Michigan oil well to bring it back. He's used to playing with below average receivers and could fit right in on the Patriots. Wouldn't that be something.
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
My real concern with McCarthy is that the offense seemed to be a lot of one read or check it down. I am not sure if that is just John Harbaugh (he ran a similar style of offense with Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick) or the result of him trying to work within McCarthy's limits. It is frustrating as an observer (and I bet moreso for someone like you who does it professionally) that college teams just don't run pro style offenses.
RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
I have heard you mention that on a podcast before. You were with a guy who was a huge Michigan fan and he was drooling over McCarthy. Despite that, I don't recall you having a high grade on McCarthy during that show.
If you have had a change of mind, I look forward to you having him #1 on your board.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
My real concern with McCarthy is that the offense seemed to be a lot of one read or check it down. I am not sure if that is just John Harbaugh (he ran a similar style of offense with Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick) or the result of him trying to work within McCarthy's limits. It is frustrating as an observer (and I bet moreso for someone like you who does it professionally) that college teams just don't run pro style offenses.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Michigan's scheme was one of the more pro style offenses in CFB albeit an old school style predicated on run game, clock control, avoiding turnovers and sound defense. I think he ran nearly the same offense at Michigan as he did in the NFL. The rpo plays are usually with one read, but he goes through progressions well in traditional drop backs from what I've seen. I can't say he had elite processing as some claim, but it definitely doesn't appear to be a deficiency in his game.
RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Michigan's scheme was one of the more pro style offenses in CFB albeit an old school style predicated on run game, clock control, avoiding turnovers and sound defense. I think he ran nearly the same offense at Michigan as he did in the NFL. The rpo plays are usually with one read, but he goes through progressions well in traditional drop backs from what I've seen. I can't say he had elite processing as some claim, but it definitely doesn't appear to be a deficiency in his game.
How do you know McCarthy goes "through progressions well"? Based on what?
If McCarthy is this elite talent that many are trying to sell, then Harbaugh should trade Herbert and draft him at #5.
Harbaugh could get a boatload for Herbert and reset with the rookie deal. Do you think he will do that?
I mean, Harbaugh knows him the best, right? Will Harbaugh be making if he doesn't draft McCarthy?
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
Well, it seems plenty of posters are enamored with McCarthy's intangibles. And I've been hearing that about Jones for five years, especially since he was drafted. My point? How does that matter in the projection of a prospect? How do you measure that to see how it translate to NFL success?
Okay, so McCarthy wins a lot in high school and college. Are you suggesting we apply more weigh to that variable than his physical ability? I mean, I guess it means something, but all of these highly rated high school prospects go to good football schools and those schools continue to have good records.
All of I have said is that McCarthy does not have the physical skill package as the top three. Otherwise, I would include him that discussion. To me, he looks like a very good college QB who played for a great head coach who recruited a ton of good players that made McCarthy's situation optimal for success. And he has some interesting skills.
I see a McCarthy type nearly every year in the draft.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Michigan's scheme was one of the more pro style offenses in CFB albeit an old school style predicated on run game, clock control, avoiding turnovers and sound defense. I think he ran nearly the same offense at Michigan as he did in the NFL. The rpo plays are usually with one read, but he goes through progressions well in traditional drop backs from what I've seen. I can't say he had elite processing as some claim, but it definitely doesn't appear to be a deficiency in his game.
How do you know McCarthy goes "through progressions well"? Based on what?
If McCarthy is this elite talent that many are trying to sell, then Harbaugh should trade Herbert and draft him at #5.
Harbaugh could get a boatload for Herbert and reset with the rookie deal. Do you think he will do that?
I mean, Harbaugh knows him the best, right? Will Harbaugh be making if he doesn't draft McCarthy?
"From what I've seen he goes through progressions well in traditional dropbacks". I do see some claim he had elite processing, but I don't have the ability to analyze that and im not going that far. I just see him go through multiple reads rather quickly and make a decision in a timely manner, going to his 2nd or 3rd or sometimes 4th option.
You misread Sy's comment I think. He said JJ is qb1 when it comes to his stats under pressure. That doesn't mean he will be ranked qb1 for Sy. Although, JJ's qb1 rating when under pressure definitely suggests his processing is above average and definitely not a flaw in his game as it was with DJ. I will always remember Sy's prophetic analysis of DJ predraft saying he didn't have the quick mind needed to be a good nfl qb. That is DJ's biggest issue and I don't think it's similar for JJ.
RE: RE: I really hope JJ McCarthy goes QB1 as well.
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
And that's the thing, as the season went on, it was apparent that Michigan had less than stellar offensive tackle play, which was a big reason why they leaned on the running game. But he was more than just a game manager, he's completely capable of delivering big plays when need be.
RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
Interesting. Ourlads has him at #45 in the mock draft. Does your view of him diverge from the rest of them there, or do they just feel he will go that low?
Stats vs. pressure and quick processing would be key traits for Schoen and Daboll one would think. I like Nabers and some of the edges, but my gut tells me it's JJ.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
Well, it seems plenty of posters are enamored with McCarthy's intangibles. And I've been hearing that about Jones for five years, especially since he was drafted. My point? How does that matter in the projection of a prospect? How do you measure that to see how it translate to NFL success?
Okay, so McCarthy wins a lot in high school and college. Are you suggesting we apply more weigh to that variable than his physical ability? I mean, I guess it means something, but all of these highly rated high school prospects go to good football schools and those schools continue to have good records.
All of I have said is that McCarthy does not have the physical skill package as the top three. Otherwise, I would include him that discussion. To me, he looks like a very good college QB who played for a great head coach who recruited a ton of good players that made McCarthy's situation optimal for success. And he has some interesting skills.
I see a McCarthy type nearly every year in the draft.
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
Well, it seems plenty of posters are enamored with McCarthy's intangibles. And I've been hearing that about Jones for five years, especially since he was drafted. My point? How does that matter in the projection of a prospect? How do you measure that to see how it translate to NFL success?
Okay, so McCarthy wins a lot in high school and college. Are you suggesting we apply more weigh to that variable than his physical ability? I mean, I guess it means something, but all of these highly rated high school prospects go to good football schools and those schools continue to have good records.
All of I have said is that McCarthy does not have the physical skill package as the top three. Otherwise, I would include him that discussion. To me, he looks like a very good college QB who played for a great head coach who recruited a ton of good players that made McCarthy's situation optimal for success. And he has some interesting skills.
I see a McCarthy type nearly every year in the draft.
As a casual fan watching JJ, I didn't see anything jump out at me either. My perspective changed after watching all 22s and studying him more. The injuries that hindered him in '22 and '23 are very real. The lack of offensive skill position talent is very real. His mentality for qb is qb1 to me. He is extremely athletic, I wouldn't be surprised if he is close to top of the charts on overall RAS score. He has a very strong arm and is very smart. He is qb1 in terms of stats under pressure. I believe his football iq is very high and he is extremely coachable.
I don't agree with the comparisons to DJ at all. JJ is vastly superior as an athlete and in nearly every way and JJ have a slow mind like DJ does imo. I can't get the inside perspective NFL front offices can, but I could see JJ being taken as qb2 if he shows vastly superior football iq while also testing off the charts at the combine.
Bw, you and I actually shared many discussions on how McCarthy wasn't impressive during the cfb season. I had the same opinion as you during the cfb season, but I hadn't done any research and didn't really know anything about him other than stats and watching some games on TV. Upon further review, my opinion completely changed on JJ. I'm glad it did because I was thinking we were screwed without some luck in this draft to get Maye or CW or JD.
Id be very excited if Dabs and Schoen like what JJ does in interviews, the combine etc along with believing in his talents. JJ could be potentially be like a taller and more athletic version of Russell Wilson.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
You misread Sy's comment I think. He said JJ is qb1 when it comes to his stats under pressure. That doesn't mean he will be ranked qb1 for Sy. Although, JJ's qb1 rating when under pressure definitely suggests his processing is above average and definitely not a flaw in his game as it was with DJ. I will always remember Sy's prophetic analysis of DJ predraft saying he didn't have the quick mind needed to be a good nfl qb. That is DJ's biggest issue and I don't think it's similar for JJ.
I didn't misread it. I was being a little tongue in cheek.
I really don't know what dealing with pressure in college means in terms of dealing with pressure in the NFL. The complexity of NFL defenses is PhD stuff compared to the vanilla Ds most face in college.
I would certainly be curious what goes into that pressure stat to arrive at a conclusion. For example:
Where did the pass go? Was it a check down? Did the receiver make actually make the play work with a good catch? Was the defense personnel actually good? Was the throw to an open receiver? What was the depth of the catch? Was the play between the numbers? Etc.
Can we agree that we collectively know nothing about these QBs?
Our opinions are based on our limited observations and research.
I do not know how people can be so set in their opinions.
I think that McCarthy has demonstrated some admirable traits and has prerequisite attributes.
I cannot tell you if he is a better prospect than the other QBs. What I can say is that he should be in the Giants' discussion when they draft a QB.
Also, even the NFL teams will have differing opinions based on what they want their QBs to be and to do.
For some to trash McCarthy or try and degrade him is ridiculous.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of you have not studied McCarthy at all
You misread Sy's comment I think. He said JJ is qb1 when it comes to his stats under pressure. That doesn't mean he will be ranked qb1 for Sy. Although, JJ's qb1 rating when under pressure definitely suggests his processing is above average and definitely not a flaw in his game as it was with DJ. I will always remember Sy's prophetic analysis of DJ predraft saying he didn't have the quick mind needed to be a good nfl qb. That is DJ's biggest issue and I don't think it's similar for JJ.
I didn't misread it. I was being a little tongue in cheek.
I really don't know what dealing with pressure in college means in terms of dealing with pressure in the NFL. The complexity of NFL defenses is PhD stuff compared to the vanilla Ds most face in college.
I would certainly be curious what goes into that pressure stat to arrive at a conclusion. For example:
Where did the pass go? Was it a check down? Did the receiver make actually make the play work with a good catch? Was the defense personnel actually good? Was the throw to an open receiver? What was the depth of the catch? Was the play between the numbers? Etc.
"McCarthy was 48 of 77 (62.3%) with eight TDs and three interceptions under pressure, and he was 78 of 112 (69.6%) for 1,144 yards, six TDs and three interceptions when blitzed."
14.7yds per completion seems with 70% completion percentage seems like he punished teams when he was blitzed. This points toward being quick minded, spotting blitzes and making defenses pay for blitzing him. He lit up top defenses like the 22 osu defense. CW looked below average against good defenses, while JJ shined. Just an interesting point to note, I will repeat his age is about 1.25 years younger than CW too.
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
The mentality definitely matters immensely albeit this is one of the hardest aspects to project with prospects. He is a winner and that's important. The parts of his A+ mentality that I find to be very important in evaluation is how he played under pressure, in big games and how he seemed unphased by mistakes or things not going his way. He has an old soul centerdness about him that is absolutely crucial for success in the NFL.
Can we agree that we collectively know nothing about these QBs?
Our opinions are based on our limited observations and research.
I do not know how people can be so set in their opinions.
I think that McCarthy has demonstrated some admirable traits and has prerequisite attributes.
I cannot tell you if he is a better prospect than the other QBs. What I can say is that he should be in the Giants' discussion when they draft a QB.
Also, even the NFL teams will have differing opinions based on what they want their QBs to be and to do.
For some to trash McCarthy or try and degrade him is ridiculous.
I agree we don't know everything. But who does? Scouts don't, either. This, IMV, is far more art than science.
I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
were able to draft him without using the 6th pick. I like what I saw on TV.
No one, including the professionals, knows how college QBs will translate to the NFL. So much of a young QBs chances are dependent on the coaching staff he's with. Hopefully the Giants can pick a QB that Daboll can coach up quickly. Quickly in my mind means two years.
If any of you saw Josh Allen as a rookie and said he'd develop to a HOF level you're lying. He threw like Nuke Laloosh on the Durham Bulls his rookie season.
The day after the Bills drafted Allen, I texted my friend, Larry, who is a huge Bills fan, and said "Allen is gong to be a monster!"
The mentality definitely matters immensely albeit this is one of the hardest aspects to project with prospects. He is a winner and that's important. The parts of his A+ mentality that I find to be very important in evaluation is how he played under pressure, in big games and how he seemed unphased by mistakes or things not going his way. He has an old soul centerdness about him that is absolutely crucial for success in the NFL.
Again, basically every highly ranked high school player goes to a top tier school. So, being a part of winning program - thus, you are a "winner" - doesn't bowl me over as some special attribute. But that's just me.
Re: McCarthy having "an old soul centerdness that is absolutely crucial..." Whatever you say, W.B. Yeats. ;)
Can we agree that we collectively know nothing about these QBs?
Our opinions are based on our limited observations and research.
I do not know how people can be so set in their opinions.
I think that McCarthy has demonstrated some admirable traits and has prerequisite attributes.
I cannot tell you if he is a better prospect than the other QBs. What I can say is that he should be in the Giants' discussion when they draft a QB.
Also, even the NFL teams will have differing opinions based on what they want their QBs to be and to do.
For some to trash McCarthy or try and degrade him is ridiculous.
I agree we don't know everything. But who does? Scouts don't, either. This, IMV, is far more art than science.
I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
I don't know how you got that comparison. Wilson was a gimmick QB in the NFL who had one year of starting at BYU. McCarthy played at Michigan in a pro style offense. Very different QB's.
After watching those throws I am beginning to like McCarthy as an option for the Giants. The issue is is #6 too high?
It's hard to know what to make of McCarthy based on his limited usage
I can't see him ahead of any of top 3 for that reason. Doesn't mean some team's scouts and coach won't fall in love with him and project him as QB2 or QB3. I just don't think there is enough for us laypeople to see it.
If the Giants traded back I would strongly consider him in the mid first range. Same with Nix. Interested to see what more of the analysts say regarding these QB's as the draft process plays out.
Here is why I never disliked McCarthy as an option
He is very young, as another poster mentioned he just turned 21, plus he has all the intangibles and a strong arm to be a franchise QB. It would be a great player to have Daboll develop.
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
Fair, I think we all may have Daniel Jones PTSD at this point.
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
McCarthy isn’t faster than Daniels.
McCarthy still struggles with the deep ball.
His arm is not the strongest.
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
But are we really good at deciding which intangibles matter? You only point to two busts, but there are others who didn't go bust. Did Aaron Rodgers show great intangibles?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McCarthy has the tools
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.
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In comment 16393719 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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But he is the closest to Josh Allen in this class. Could JS and Dabs see it that way.
I think he has more Mahomes attributes than Allen. Not saying he's the next great one, but I do think he has those abilities.
Are you two kidding mentioning Mahomes and Allen on this thread?
Reminds me of a combination of Marino, Montana, and Staubach.
I don't see how you can draft a QB on day 1 that didn't light it up in college. Their offense was run first, run second, throw short third.
No one, including the professionals, knows how college QBs will translate to the NFL. So much of a young QBs chances are dependent on the coaching staff he's with. Hopefully the Giants can pick a QB that Daboll can coach up quickly. Quickly in my mind means two years.
If any of you saw Josh Allen as a rookie and said he'd develop to a HOF level you're lying. He threw like Nuke Laloosh on the Durham Bulls his rookie season.
Just a wild thought, and I have no idea how that would affect LACs cap.
And while I understand Harbaugh's decision to put the games in the hands of his defense and his running game, doesn't that speak to at least some extent to the confidence Harbaugh hand in JJ? If when the chips are down, a coach rarely asks the QB to put the team on his shoulders, that's an indictment of the QB.
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Brings a winning mentality and top notch intangibles. Teammates loved him and was a winner dating back to high school. Some guys have it and he seems to.
So?
How do you know that translates to the NFL and will make an NFL team better? I have been hearing and reading about Jones's intangibles for five long years.
To me, I find those to be nothing more than hackneyed items for football romantics who think intangibles help teams win more than physical skills.
Not sure what this has to do with Daniel Jones.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
The main impression I get from JJ's highlights above is that he throws into tight windows very often, and his receivers do a great job on contected catches. And he is a better and tougher runner than you would expect. Maybe this is who Sy56 is referring to??
I could see the Patriots taking JJ McCarthy as a surprise pick. I know one poster said his connected buddy claimed Nix is their 2nd rated qb, but McCarthy would make a lot more sense and if he ended up being the goods then they'd look like geniuses. Going back to the old Michigan oil well to bring it back. He's used to playing with below average receivers and could fit right in on the Patriots. Wouldn't that be something.
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
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and it shows
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
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In comment 16394071 Sy'56 said:
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and it shows
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
My real concern with McCarthy is that the offense seemed to be a lot of one read or check it down. I am not sure if that is just John Harbaugh (he ran a similar style of offense with Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick) or the result of him trying to work within McCarthy's limits. It is frustrating as an observer (and I bet moreso for someone like you who does it professionally) that college teams just don't run pro style offenses.
Stick around? You registered this month.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
I have heard you mention that on a podcast before. You were with a guy who was a huge Michigan fan and he was drooling over McCarthy. Despite that, I don't recall you having a high grade on McCarthy during that show.
If you have had a change of mind, I look forward to you having him #1 on your board.
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In comment 16394093 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16394071 Sy'56 said:
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and it shows
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
My real concern with McCarthy is that the offense seemed to be a lot of one read or check it down. I am not sure if that is just John Harbaugh (he ran a similar style of offense with Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick) or the result of him trying to work within McCarthy's limits. It is frustrating as an observer (and I bet moreso for someone like you who does it professionally) that college teams just don't run pro style offenses.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Michigan's scheme was one of the more pro style offenses in CFB albeit an old school style predicated on run game, clock control, avoiding turnovers and sound defense. I think he ran nearly the same offense at Michigan as he did in the NFL. The rpo plays are usually with one read, but he goes through progressions well in traditional drop backs from what I've seen. I can't say he had elite processing as some claim, but it definitely doesn't appear to be a deficiency in his game.
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One of the big reasons I stick around.
Stick around? You registered this month.
I've been here since 2005, we have had many good conversations and our perspectives are often very resonant.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Michigan's scheme was one of the more pro style offenses in CFB albeit an old school style predicated on run game, clock control, avoiding turnovers and sound defense. I think he ran nearly the same offense at Michigan as he did in the NFL. The rpo plays are usually with one read, but he goes through progressions well in traditional drop backs from what I've seen. I can't say he had elite processing as some claim, but it definitely doesn't appear to be a deficiency in his game.
How do you know McCarthy goes "through progressions well"? Based on what?
If McCarthy is this elite talent that many are trying to sell, then Harbaugh should trade Herbert and draft him at #5.
Harbaugh could get a boatload for Herbert and reset with the rookie deal. Do you think he will do that?
I mean, Harbaugh knows him the best, right? Will Harbaugh be making if he doesn't draft McCarthy?
Not sure what this has to do with Daniel Jones.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
Well, it seems plenty of posters are enamored with McCarthy's intangibles. And I've been hearing that about Jones for five years, especially since he was drafted. My point? How does that matter in the projection of a prospect? How do you measure that to see how it translate to NFL success?
Okay, so McCarthy wins a lot in high school and college. Are you suggesting we apply more weigh to that variable than his physical ability? I mean, I guess it means something, but all of these highly rated high school prospects go to good football schools and those schools continue to have good records.
All of I have said is that McCarthy does not have the physical skill package as the top three. Otherwise, I would include him that discussion. To me, he looks like a very good college QB who played for a great head coach who recruited a ton of good players that made McCarthy's situation optimal for success. And he has some interesting skills.
I see a McCarthy type nearly every year in the draft.
Hypothetically, that would be great.
Of course, that assumes we would take a Maye if he fell into our lap...
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Michigan's scheme was one of the more pro style offenses in CFB albeit an old school style predicated on run game, clock control, avoiding turnovers and sound defense. I think he ran nearly the same offense at Michigan as he did in the NFL. The rpo plays are usually with one read, but he goes through progressions well in traditional drop backs from what I've seen. I can't say he had elite processing as some claim, but it definitely doesn't appear to be a deficiency in his game.
How do you know McCarthy goes "through progressions well"? Based on what?
If McCarthy is this elite talent that many are trying to sell, then Harbaugh should trade Herbert and draft him at #5.
Harbaugh could get a boatload for Herbert and reset with the rookie deal. Do you think he will do that?
I mean, Harbaugh knows him the best, right? Will Harbaugh be making if he doesn't draft McCarthy?
"From what I've seen he goes through progressions well in traditional dropbacks". I do see some claim he had elite processing, but I don't have the ability to analyze that and im not going that far. I just see him go through multiple reads rather quickly and make a decision in a timely manner, going to his 2nd or 3rd or sometimes 4th option.
You misread Sy's comment I think. He said JJ is qb1 when it comes to his stats under pressure. That doesn't mean he will be ranked qb1 for Sy. Although, JJ's qb1 rating when under pressure definitely suggests his processing is above average and definitely not a flaw in his game as it was with DJ. I will always remember Sy's prophetic analysis of DJ predraft saying he didn't have the quick mind needed to be a good nfl qb. That is DJ's biggest issue and I don't think it's similar for JJ.
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That would be very helpful.
Hypothetically, that would be great.
Of course, that assumes we would take a Maye if he fell into our lap...
I guess. Unless Schoen pulls the trigger and spends two 1sts and a 2nd rounder to move up and draft JJ overall #1.
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In comment 16394071 Sy'56 said:
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and it shows
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
And that's the thing, as the season went on, it was apparent that Michigan had less than stellar offensive tackle play, which was a big reason why they leaned on the running game. But he was more than just a game manager, he's completely capable of delivering big plays when need be.
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In comment 16394071 Sy'56 said:
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and it shows
BINGO. Love having you around here Sy. One of the big reasons I stick around. Those complaining about him not being asked to do too much at Michigan, being enamored with stats from QBs playing in gimmicky college offenses that don't fly in the NfL, classic amateur hour. I wouldn't be surprised if McCarthy ends up the best of this bunch and I'm saying this as a huge Jayden Daniels fan. If I was a GM I could totally see liking JJ more than Maye or Daniels based on his mind and his game. I think his mentality is very rare. That calmness and focus that is unaltered when things don't go right is Eli Manningesque. I can't really comment on his "elite processing", but if that's true then I would be more than happy with him at pick 6. I just don't see him lasting until late rd1 and we would have to trade a boatload to jump teams in rd1 that would likely take him, going all the way from pick 39 up to around pick 10 or 11.
You are correct.
But the ironic thing is - if you take a deeper look into stats (especially vs. pressure) McCarthy is QB1
Interesting. Ourlads has him at #45 in the mock draft. Does your view of him diverge from the rest of them there, or do they just feel he will go that low?
Stats vs. pressure and quick processing would be key traits for Schoen and Daboll one would think. I like Nabers and some of the edges, but my gut tells me it's JJ.
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Not sure what this has to do with Daniel Jones.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
Well, it seems plenty of posters are enamored with McCarthy's intangibles. And I've been hearing that about Jones for five years, especially since he was drafted. My point? How does that matter in the projection of a prospect? How do you measure that to see how it translate to NFL success?
Okay, so McCarthy wins a lot in high school and college. Are you suggesting we apply more weigh to that variable than his physical ability? I mean, I guess it means something, but all of these highly rated high school prospects go to good football schools and those schools continue to have good records.
All of I have said is that McCarthy does not have the physical skill package as the top three. Otherwise, I would include him that discussion. To me, he looks like a very good college QB who played for a great head coach who recruited a ton of good players that made McCarthy's situation optimal for success. And he has some interesting skills.
I see a McCarthy type nearly every year in the draft.
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
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Not sure what this has to do with Daniel Jones.
JJ McCarthy has done nothing but win since he put on the pads. He also played on talented teams dating back to high school. How much credit does he deserve? Debatable, but his W/L record is relevant to the discussion.
And he has the physical skills. Speed, arm talent, natural athleticism. All of this shows up on tape. He is not going to hold up as a run first QB, he does not have that build. But he has NFL caliber tools and is young enough that he may not have hit his ceiling.
Well, it seems plenty of posters are enamored with McCarthy's intangibles. And I've been hearing that about Jones for five years, especially since he was drafted. My point? How does that matter in the projection of a prospect? How do you measure that to see how it translate to NFL success?
Okay, so McCarthy wins a lot in high school and college. Are you suggesting we apply more weigh to that variable than his physical ability? I mean, I guess it means something, but all of these highly rated high school prospects go to good football schools and those schools continue to have good records.
All of I have said is that McCarthy does not have the physical skill package as the top three. Otherwise, I would include him that discussion. To me, he looks like a very good college QB who played for a great head coach who recruited a ton of good players that made McCarthy's situation optimal for success. And he has some interesting skills.
I see a McCarthy type nearly every year in the draft.
As a casual fan watching JJ, I didn't see anything jump out at me either. My perspective changed after watching all 22s and studying him more. The injuries that hindered him in '22 and '23 are very real. The lack of offensive skill position talent is very real. His mentality for qb is qb1 to me. He is extremely athletic, I wouldn't be surprised if he is close to top of the charts on overall RAS score. He has a very strong arm and is very smart. He is qb1 in terms of stats under pressure. I believe his football iq is very high and he is extremely coachable.
I don't agree with the comparisons to DJ at all. JJ is vastly superior as an athlete and in nearly every way and JJ have a slow mind like DJ does imo. I can't get the inside perspective NFL front offices can, but I could see JJ being taken as qb2 if he shows vastly superior football iq while also testing off the charts at the combine.
Bw, you and I actually shared many discussions on how McCarthy wasn't impressive during the cfb season. I had the same opinion as you during the cfb season, but I hadn't done any research and didn't really know anything about him other than stats and watching some games on TV. Upon further review, my opinion completely changed on JJ. I'm glad it did because I was thinking we were screwed without some luck in this draft to get Maye or CW or JD.
Id be very excited if Dabs and Schoen like what JJ does in interviews, the combine etc along with believing in his talents. JJ could be potentially be like a taller and more athletic version of Russell Wilson.
You misread Sy's comment I think. He said JJ is qb1 when it comes to his stats under pressure. That doesn't mean he will be ranked qb1 for Sy. Although, JJ's qb1 rating when under pressure definitely suggests his processing is above average and definitely not a flaw in his game as it was with DJ. I will always remember Sy's prophetic analysis of DJ predraft saying he didn't have the quick mind needed to be a good nfl qb. That is DJ's biggest issue and I don't think it's similar for JJ.
I didn't misread it. I was being a little tongue in cheek.
I really don't know what dealing with pressure in college means in terms of dealing with pressure in the NFL. The complexity of NFL defenses is PhD stuff compared to the vanilla Ds most face in college.
I would certainly be curious what goes into that pressure stat to arrive at a conclusion. For example:
Where did the pass go? Was it a check down? Did the receiver make actually make the play work with a good catch? Was the defense personnel actually good? Was the throw to an open receiver? What was the depth of the catch? Was the play between the numbers? Etc.
Our opinions are based on our limited observations and research.
I do not know how people can be so set in their opinions.
I think that McCarthy has demonstrated some admirable traits and has prerequisite attributes.
I cannot tell you if he is a better prospect than the other QBs. What I can say is that he should be in the Giants' discussion when they draft a QB.
Also, even the NFL teams will have differing opinions based on what they want their QBs to be and to do.
For some to trash McCarthy or try and degrade him is ridiculous.
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In comment 16394093 BleedBlue46 said:
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One of the big reasons I stick around.
Stick around? You registered this month.
I've been here since 2005, we have had many good conversations and our perspectives are often very resonant.
Fair enough. I figured you were saying like you were planning to bail after a week.
I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
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You misread Sy's comment I think. He said JJ is qb1 when it comes to his stats under pressure. That doesn't mean he will be ranked qb1 for Sy. Although, JJ's qb1 rating when under pressure definitely suggests his processing is above average and definitely not a flaw in his game as it was with DJ. I will always remember Sy's prophetic analysis of DJ predraft saying he didn't have the quick mind needed to be a good nfl qb. That is DJ's biggest issue and I don't think it's similar for JJ.
I didn't misread it. I was being a little tongue in cheek.
I really don't know what dealing with pressure in college means in terms of dealing with pressure in the NFL. The complexity of NFL defenses is PhD stuff compared to the vanilla Ds most face in college.
I would certainly be curious what goes into that pressure stat to arrive at a conclusion. For example:
Where did the pass go? Was it a check down? Did the receiver make actually make the play work with a good catch? Was the defense personnel actually good? Was the throw to an open receiver? What was the depth of the catch? Was the play between the numbers? Etc.
"McCarthy was 48 of 77 (62.3%) with eight TDs and three interceptions under pressure, and he was 78 of 112 (69.6%) for 1,144 yards, six TDs and three interceptions when blitzed."
14.7yds per completion seems with 70% completion percentage seems like he punished teams when he was blitzed. This points toward being quick minded, spotting blitzes and making defenses pay for blitzing him. He lit up top defenses like the 22 osu defense. CW looked below average against good defenses, while JJ shined. Just an interesting point to note, I will repeat his age is about 1.25 years younger than CW too.
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I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
The mentality definitely matters immensely albeit this is one of the hardest aspects to project with prospects. He is a winner and that's important. The parts of his A+ mentality that I find to be very important in evaluation is how he played under pressure, in big games and how he seemed unphased by mistakes or things not going his way. He has an old soul centerdness about him that is absolutely crucial for success in the NFL.
Our opinions are based on our limited observations and research.
I do not know how people can be so set in their opinions.
I think that McCarthy has demonstrated some admirable traits and has prerequisite attributes.
I cannot tell you if he is a better prospect than the other QBs. What I can say is that he should be in the Giants' discussion when they draft a QB.
Also, even the NFL teams will have differing opinions based on what they want their QBs to be and to do.
For some to trash McCarthy or try and degrade him is ridiculous.
I agree we don't know everything. But who does? Scouts don't, either. This, IMV, is far more art than science.
I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
No one, including the professionals, knows how college QBs will translate to the NFL. So much of a young QBs chances are dependent on the coaching staff he's with. Hopefully the Giants can pick a QB that Daboll can coach up quickly. Quickly in my mind means two years.
If any of you saw Josh Allen as a rookie and said he'd develop to a HOF level you're lying. He threw like Nuke Laloosh on the Durham Bulls his rookie season.
The day after the Bills drafted Allen, I texted my friend, Larry, who is a huge Bills fan, and said "Allen is gong to be a monster!"
HOPE ITS NOT SCHOEN!!!!!
The mentality definitely matters immensely albeit this is one of the hardest aspects to project with prospects. He is a winner and that's important. The parts of his A+ mentality that I find to be very important in evaluation is how he played under pressure, in big games and how he seemed unphased by mistakes or things not going his way. He has an old soul centerdness about him that is absolutely crucial for success in the NFL.
Again, basically every highly ranked high school player goes to a top tier school. So, being a part of winning program - thus, you are a "winner" - doesn't bowl me over as some special attribute. But that's just me.
Re: McCarthy having "an old soul centerdness that is absolutely crucial..." Whatever you say, W.B. Yeats. ;)
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Can we agree that we collectively know nothing about these QBs?
Our opinions are based on our limited observations and research.
I do not know how people can be so set in their opinions.
I think that McCarthy has demonstrated some admirable traits and has prerequisite attributes.
I cannot tell you if he is a better prospect than the other QBs. What I can say is that he should be in the Giants' discussion when they draft a QB.
Also, even the NFL teams will have differing opinions based on what they want their QBs to be and to do.
For some to trash McCarthy or try and degrade him is ridiculous.
I agree we don't know everything. But who does? Scouts don't, either. This, IMV, is far more art than science.
I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
solid sammary
I don't know how you got that comparison. Wilson was a gimmick QB in the NFL who had one year of starting at BYU. McCarthy played at Michigan in a pro style offense. Very different QB's.
After watching those throws I am beginning to like McCarthy as an option for the Giants. The issue is is #6 too high?
I can't see him ahead of any of top 3 for that reason. Doesn't mean some team's scouts and coach won't fall in love with him and project him as QB2 or QB3. I just don't think there is enough for us laypeople to see it.
I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
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I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
Fair, I think we all may have Daniel Jones PTSD at this point.
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I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
McCarthy isn’t faster than Daniels.
McCarthy still struggles with the deep ball.
His arm is not the strongest.
The last two don’t translate to the NFL.
McCarthy isn’t faster than Daniels.
McCarthy still struggles with the deep ball.
His arm is not the strongest.
The last two don’t translate to the NFL.
McCarthy's arm is definitely above average strength wise.
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McCarthy isn’t faster than Daniels.
McCarthy still struggles with the deep ball.
His arm is not the strongest.
The last two don’t translate to the NFL.
McCarthy's arm is definitely above average strength wise.
Yeah it is. But I think there are a few like Williams and Maye who have bigger arms. I think Penix does as well.
Lot of QBs can sling it in this draft.
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I do know these things:
-- Jayden Daniels is an electric runner who made great athletes in the SEC look ordinary.
-- Daniels throws a very impressive deep ball.
-- Daniels sure gives strong signals that he is very efficient and comfortable off-script
-- Caleb Williams has unique arm talent where he seems to be able to make any throw.
-- Williams is a terrific runner, too.
-- Williams is from another planet off-script.
-- Drake Maye has ideal size.
-- Maye has a plus arm and seems quite capable of making any throw you can imagine...
-- Maye is also a mobile athlete who can make plays on the move.
McCarthy has unique arm talent, the strongest other than Milton.
McCarthy is accurate at all levels
McCarthy is fast and can run, perhaps the fastest of all the QBs.
McCarthy comes from an NFL-style offense that requires him to read and react.
McCarthy makes plays off-script and can throw off-platform
McCarthy is a winner
McCarthy is tough and plays hurt
McCarthy does not have a stronger arm than Caleb Williams. I don't know where you are getting this. Caleb has a 65 air yard throw on tape that is a laser, not a looper. He makes it effortlessly with accuracy and not much set up. I haven't seen anything close to that from McCarthy. Plus Williams shows power and accuracy from all points on the field to all required throws on the field.
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I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
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In comment 16394179 RawhideMarshall said:
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I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
But are we really good at deciding which intangibles matter? You only point to two busts, but there are others who didn't go bust. Did Aaron Rodgers show great intangibles?
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In comment 16394179 RawhideMarshall said:
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I do not see the Daniel Jones comparison at all. One was lightly recruited and had a sub-500 record at a second tier ACC program. One was a blue chip recruit who lost one game as a starter, including playing on the biggest stages.
Their playing styles are not really comparable either.
JJ McCarthy is no guarantee as an NFL prospect, but I would not use Daniel Jones' shortcomings as a barometer.
I am not comparing their physical skills.
But I am seeing that many posters highlighting McCarthy's intangibles. While you certainly don't want a jerkoff (see Jeff George or Jay Cutler), I just don't think those features should be heavily weighed when evaluating a prospect.
On the flipside, not weighing intangibles heavily is how guys like Jamarcus Russell and Zach Wilson get drafted in the Top 5.
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
Conversely I can point to many more QBs who had great intangibles who went bust -- like #8.
I have no idea what Daniel Jones has to do with my comment. Fact is, intangibles are an important part of the equation. A QB with the best physical tools in the world will fail if he has no work ethic and drive. In fact, one of Daniel Jones oft quoted weaknesses is his inability to process the field quickly enough. That's an intangible, is it not? It's certainly not quantifiable in any meaningful way.