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| The Giants are confident Daniel Jones will be ready to go Week 1 after tearing his ACL in early November. He’s been in the team facility regularly for rehab work, and while he’s not moving a lot yet, he’s said to be making good progress. Jones has $35.5 million fully guaranteed in 2024; after that, the guarantees are for injury only. The Giants are sitting at No. 6 in the draft order, which means they’d likely have to move up to nab one of the top quarterbacks in April. GM Joe Schoen attended a handful of games this past fall in which those passers were playing, including the USC-Washington game that featured both Caleb Williams and Michael Penix Jr.. Keep an eye on Big Blue to see if they try jockeying for position at the top of the draft. |
'22 semi miraculous season leading directly to the shit show beginning of '23 is the poster child for the anti argument of winning building culture.
Giants should have been in tank mode the moment it was unmistakenly obvious we were going nowhere.
Now we're in the situation of having massive resources invested in DJ and needing to invest massive resources to move up, or bring in a quality vet. That's a bitter pill that might make the brass think rolling with DJ again is a good idea.
Maybe we'll get lucky and the gods will smile on us and a decent prospect is there at 6, or down the line. That's not good planning, though, to depend on luck.
You mean the team that trotted out Tommy DeVito wasn't in tank mode? Come on. Daboll would be likely looking for work right now if he went 2-15. Easy for fans to say this.
Yep, just a question of how much it would cost.
There was some complaining about the cost for Eli, but 2 Super Bowl wins and 2 Super Bowl MVPs later, I'd say it was worth it.
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absolutely.
'22 semi miraculous season leading directly to the shit show beginning of '23 is the poster child for the anti argument of winning building culture.
Giants should have been in tank mode the moment it was unmistakenly obvious we were going nowhere.
Now we're in the situation of having massive resources invested in DJ and needing to invest massive resources to move up, or bring in a quality vet. That's a bitter pill that might make the brass think rolling with DJ again is a good idea.
Maybe we'll get lucky and the gods will smile on us and a decent prospect is there at 6, or down the line. That's not good planning, though, to depend on luck.
You mean the team that trotted out Tommy DeVito wasn't in tank mode? Come on. Daboll would be likely looking for work right now if he went 2-15. Easy for fans to say this.
Tanking in the NFL is akin to a sales department realizing they will fall short of sales goals, and decides to tank sales so that the turnaround next year will be all the more stunning. It misses that these are people, and this is their livelihood, and folks on staff won’t forget you screwed with their careers.
NFL teams do not actively tank seasons. It is a silly thing to expect.
You mean the team that trotted out Tommy DeVito wasn't in tank mode? Come on. Daboll would be likely looking for work right now if he went 2-15. Easy for fans to say this.
How do you know Daboll would have been on the market looking for work if we went 2-15? Are those four extra wins really material?
We still missed the playoffs, but we lost critical spots in the draft process. What would have been better for the franchise in preparing for the long term? Only two wins or the actual six?
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You mean the team that trotted out Tommy DeVito wasn't in tank mode? Come on. Daboll would be likely looking for work right now if he went 2-15. Easy for fans to say this.
How do you know Daboll would have been on the market looking for work if we went 2-15? Are those four extra wins really material?
We still missed the playoffs, but we lost critical spots in the draft process. What would have been better for the franchise in preparing for the long term? Only two wins or the actual six?
2 wins would have been better with regards to the draft, but I see no reason to dwell on it. Teams will always try to win on game day.
If Joe Schoen went into his interview saying, "my plan is to go 2-15 and draft a QB high." That isn't a plan. It's Schoen's job to manage the draft and get a QB.
Notice the two teams playing today didn't need to tank for a top 3 pick. Loser franchises rely on that and bitching or blaming the Giants for a few wins is a waste of energy imo.
It's also really hard to go 2-15. You need a ton of luck to be that bad. Relying on that is not realistic imo.
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You mean the team that trotted out Tommy DeVito wasn't in tank mode? Come on. Daboll would be likely looking for work right now if he went 2-15. Easy for fans to say this.
How do you know Daboll would have been on the market looking for work if we went 2-15? Are those four extra wins really material?
We still missed the playoffs, but we lost critical spots in the draft process. What would have been better for the franchise in preparing for the long term? Only two wins or the actual six?
For a guy that is laughably arrogant for absolutely no reason, you sure are freakin clueless. That’s your fantasy world that teams are going to go out there and lose games intentionally for half the season. You may see them mail it in the last week of the season but what you clowns are suggesting is completely asinine. Easy shit to say from for couch
So it could have been much worse.
Well this sure would be a really boring place if everyone just posted “I hope JS and BD have a plan and follow it. I’ll be ok with whatever they decide because I am not a pro.”
It’s ok for fans to have opinions, like some players and not like others. The discussion and arguing isn’t hurting the Giants.
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You mean the team that trotted out Tommy DeVito wasn't in tank mode? Come on. Daboll would be likely looking for work right now if he went 2-15. Easy for fans to say this.
How do you know Daboll would have been on the market looking for work if we went 2-15? Are those four extra wins really material?
We still missed the playoffs, but we lost critical spots in the draft process. What would have been better for the franchise in preparing for the long term? Only two wins or the actual six?
The idea that the coaches or players are going to tank is nothing more than a fan driven delusion. I'd love the #1 pick but also realize professional athletes and coaches aren't going to try and lose games.
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Do intelligent scouting and development. Basically, JS and BD need a plan and to execute on it. There isn’t going g to be any sure thing falling into our lap. There’s so much complaining about has to be this guy or can’t be that guy. I dint care about that. Get a plan and see it through. Fans are embarrassingly conceited in overestimating their ability to predict outcomes.
Well this sure would be a really boring place if everyone just posted “I hope JS and BD have a plan and follow it. I’ll be ok with whatever they decide because I am not a pro.”
It’s ok for fans to have opinions, like some players and not like others. The discussion and arguing isn’t hurting the Giants.
'22 semi miraculous season leading directly to the shit show beginning of '23 is the poster child for the anti argument of winning building culture.
Giants should have been in tank mode the moment it was unmistakenly obvious we were going nowhere.
Now we're in the situation of having massive resources invested in DJ and needing to invest massive resources to move up, or bring in a quality vet. That's a bitter pill that might make the brass think rolling with DJ again is a good idea.
Maybe we'll get lucky and the gods will smile on us and a decent prospect is there at 6, or down the line. That's not good planning, though, to depend on luck.
That sums it up well, especially your last paragraph.
However, I think my original theory has merit here. Schoen and Daboll are still comfortable being hitched to Jones in the long-term and being in the Big Three Sweepstakes was never a priority.
So, whether we finished with the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 10th pick didn't matter. They will look to upgrade at position outside QB.
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You mean the team that trotted out Tommy DeVito wasn't in tank mode? Come on. Daboll would be likely looking for work right now if he went 2-15. Easy for fans to say this.
How do you know Daboll would have been on the market looking for work if we went 2-15? Are those four extra wins really material?
We still missed the playoffs, but we lost critical spots in the draft process. What would have been better for the franchise in preparing for the long term? Only two wins or the actual six?
You are putting yourself in the perspective of a fan or the front office. There are around 100 players and coaches fighting their ass off for their job and the coaches are trying to build a culture. They can’t be concerned with next year draft position gamesmanship.
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absolutely.
'22 semi miraculous season leading directly to the shit show beginning of '23 is the poster child for the anti argument of winning building culture.
Giants should have been in tank mode the moment it was unmistakenly obvious we were going nowhere.
Now we're in the situation of having massive resources invested in DJ and needing to invest massive resources to move up, or bring in a quality vet. That's a bitter pill that might make the brass think rolling with DJ again is a good idea.
Maybe we'll get lucky and the gods will smile on us and a decent prospect is there at 6, or down the line. That's not good planning, though, to depend on luck.
That sums it up well, especially your last paragraph.
However, I think my original theory has merit here. Schoen and Daboll are still comfortable being hitched to Jones in the long-term and being in the Big Three Sweepstakes was never a priority.
So, whether we finished with the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 10th pick didn't matter. They will look to upgrade at position outside QB.
I don’t agree with anything in either of these posts outside of the “tank mode” comment. I wouldn’t take the “reports” that the Giants are happy going forward with Jones as the starter in 2024 as anything other than the adage, “You say what you have to say until you don’t have to say it anymore.”There’s absolutely nothing to be gained by the Giants saying otherwise outside of the happiness of a portion of Giants fans on social media.
No shit the Giants are trying to move up in the draft. Unfortunately, none of the top 3 teams are trading their picks (unless to each other) despite any delusions to the contrary. I think the Giants definitely would’ve drafted a QB if they had one of the top 3 picks and would’ve traded up if they had the fourth pick. Heck, that would’ve given the GM and HC more rope than another year with Jones will. That’s why I think they’ll draft a QB somewhere in the top 40 picks.
If they don’t, that will say far more about the available QBs than it does about their belief in Jones.
Fans overreact when they are sick and tired of the incessant losing and terrible performances by the team. This isn’t new.
You are putting yourself in the perspective of a fan or the front office. There are around 100 players and coaches fighting their ass off for their job and the coaches are trying to build a culture. They can’t be concerned with next year draft position gamesmanship.
I stand by my point directed at those who insist winning those meaningless games in the second half of the season have value.
Agreed.
First off, you can call them meaningless games if you like but losing more games would have done nothing but blow this shit up again.. It also means nothing as far as the roll of the dice draft goes. We finished pretty high in the draft in 2018 and most folks (tons on here by the way) were thrilled with getting Barkley or Darnold or Rosen.. Very few if any were clamoring for Allen and none were interested in Mayfield.. In fact one person here was ringing the bell for us to trade with the Cards in the next off season for Rosen. Rosen who never amounted to anything in the NFL.
How about the we shouldn't have beaten Washington late in the season because it cost us Chase Young? Young has been average (and a big injury as well) and is playing for his second team. We got our franchise LT instead.
Most everyone here was thrilled with Thibs and Neal at the top of the draft two years ago and to date Thibs has been good (not great by any stretch) and Neal is heading into the switch positions or bust phase if things don't improve soon..
We are at 6 with two teams ahead of us not going QB. You folks are arguing for 1 -2 because you have made up YOUR mind who they should pick. I think we can get McCarthy or possibly Maye at 6.
The fallacy here is that unless the Giants draft the QB YOU want they will have reached or made a mistake etc. But, how do you know that? Williams might be amazing but he has some serious yellow flags around him that need to be at least acknowledged. Daniels- has a frame that will get crushed if he doesn't bulk up a bit. Maye- struggled last year at times and has the stigma of Howell and Trubisky hanging over him. McCarthy, many downplay his ability because the Wolverines ran a run heavy offense. Penix has injury history and true lack of mobility issues. Nix, older guy, plays against softer college defenses and might have a low ceiling..
We are not in no mans land, it is just you have decided what the Giants should do and what the other 5 teams ahead of us will do..
I personally think this draft could see 4-5 QB's in rd 1.. But max of 3 in the top 5. Free Agency could make that be 2 in the top 5..
Like SY said, drafting a QB doesn't mean he will start in 2024..
Sure but if they draft a first round QB, either at #6 or a trade into the back half of the 1st round, by far the highest likelihood is that QB will start by game 6 of his first season. We're not the playoff Chiefs with Alex Smith and we're not the playoff Packers with Aaron Rodgers. We are a perennial loser with an injury prone QB who has played poorly and has a punitive injury clause trigger in 2025.
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This blurb that suggests we should "keep an eye on the Giants to see if they try jockeying for position at the top of the draft" doesn't really mean anything. It's not even speculation that the Giants are thinking about trading up for a QB or replacing DJ.
Agreed.
Rapaport was on NFL network this AM and made it clear it was in reference to a QB.
So it could have been much worse.
If we won those three games, which we should have, we would have been in the playoffs and not Green Bay!
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It’s more for me than anything, I’m trying to avoid getting too emotional about things that are far less certain than they appear/feel.
Fans overreact when they are sick and tired of the incessant losing and terrible performances by the team. This isn’t new.
Ok, but somebody has to. Jones could likely be on PUP when the season starts.
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In comment 16395233 UberAlias said:
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It’s more for me than anything, I’m trying to avoid getting too emotional about things that are far less certain than they appear/feel.
Fans overreact when they are sick and tired of the incessant losing and terrible performances by the team. This isn’t new.
You’re missing the contex. Not about overreacting.
What is the context? Besides you unnecessarily sideways lecturing other fans how to think, feel, argue or behave?
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Giants were "this close" to winning another two games, including an easy FG miss by Mr. Automatic.
So it could have been much worse.
If we won those three games, which we should have, we would have been in the playoffs and not Green Bay!
The Giants also had two wins they lucked out in and should have lost if the officials and other team weren’t incompetent in the second half.
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In comment 16395264 Sammo85 said:
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In comment 16395233 UberAlias said:
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It’s more for me than anything, I’m trying to avoid getting too emotional about things that are far less certain than they appear/feel.
Fans overreact when they are sick and tired of the incessant losing and terrible performances by the team. This isn’t new.
You’re missing the contex. Not about overreacting.
What is the context? Besides you unnecessarily sideways lecturing other fans how to think, feel, argue or behave?
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he does not need to start in 2024.
Ok, but somebody has to. Jones could likely be on PUP when the season starts.
Notwithstanding your point, why would you even start Jones if he was healthy? By investing in another QB in the lottery, you are basically declaring the Jones Era dead.
We don't want him to get injured (per the contract) and, IMV, you wouldn't want him to play and possibly hurt whatever trade value he may still have by playing poorly again.
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In comment 16395270 Sy'56 said:
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he does not need to start in 2024.
Ok, but somebody has to. Jones could likely be on PUP when the season starts.
Notwithstanding your point, why would you even start Jones if he was healthy? By investing in another QB in the lottery, you are basically declaring the Jones Era dead.
We don't want him to get injured (per the contract) and, IMV, you wouldn't want him to play and possibly hurt whatever trade value he may still have by playing poorly again.
This is the conundrum in a nutshell we have to see what Schoen decides to do and how Daboll executes from there, either way. Their futures really do rest on what happens with the QB pivot decision. I don’t agree Schoen gets a 2nd HC/QB duo in his GM stocking if things go south, but who knows with Mara seeming to be more gushy after the blow it up cycle of every 2 years for 6-7 years and three regime changes.
He needs to compete for the starting position though, otherwise what are we doing here?
Thats why we should try to trade up, if we want one of those top QBs, as i dont see anyone fallin, even if chicago doesnt draft one.
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he does not need to start in 2024.
He needs to compete for the starting position though, otherwise what are we doing here?
'22 semi miraculous season leading directly to the shit show beginning of '23 is the poster child for the anti argument of winning building culture.
Giants should have been in tank mode the moment it was unmistakenly obvious we were going nowhere.
Now we're in the situation of having massive resources invested in DJ and needing to invest massive resources to move up, or bring in a quality vet. That's a bitter pill that might make the brass think rolling with DJ again is a good idea.
Maybe we'll get lucky and the gods will smile on us and a decent prospect is there at 6, or down the line. That's not good planning, though, to depend on luck.
Playing an undrafted rookie at QB is the very definition of tank mode. Credit to DeVito for making the most of his opportunity.
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In comment 16395270 Sy'56 said:
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he does not need to start in 2024.
Ok, but somebody has to. Jones could likely be on PUP when the season starts.
Notwithstanding your point, why would you even start Jones if he was healthy? By investing in another QB in the lottery, you are basically declaring the Jones Era dead.
We don't want him to get injured (per the contract) and, IMV, you wouldn't want him to play and possibly hurt whatever trade value he may still have by playing poorly again.
As I said, someone has to start.
If Jones can’t or they determine he shouldn’t then it would be silly to have a drafted QB just sitting around.
Being paralyzed or held hostage with QB decisions is no way to run a franchise.
This makes perfect logical sense. Schoen may have made mistakes, but he is not a fool. No matter how much he loves Jones, he is coming off an ACL and you absolutely need another starting-caliber QB on the roster. The veteran option is the worse path to take because you will be committing too many cap dollars to the position to bring in a legit backup, even if you backload their contract to 2025 (that will still be ton of cap tied up combined with either Jones' base or dead cap if they cut him after 24').
Now, they may not get their guy, but I'll bet they'll try to. Schoen has an extra 2nd round pick for a reason. He can either simply get the QB at 6 and accumulate talent with his 2nd round picks or he can use them to move up.
Bottom line: I'm not buying for a second this "the Giants will NOT take a QB in the 1st round" stuff that's getting leaked.
I think there is a real fear that the front office will have to the narrative of "The Giants have the most expensive backup in the league. They are paying him $40M/year to hold a clipboard."
Whenever Jones is healthy, I think they are going to put him back in as the starter.
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I agree with your completely logical take but think that there will be institutional pressures to play Jones. I’m not talking about the Maras but things like the fact that the Giants are paying him a lot of money and he will be 1st or 2nd on the depth chart.
I think there is a real fear that the front office will have to the narrative of "The Giants have the most expensive backup in the league. They are paying him $40M/year to hold a clipboard."
Whenever Jones is healthy, I think they are going to put him back in as the starter.
I think you’re right. The franchise is paralyzed by optics. Happened with the Eli benching and will probably happen again.
lol
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In comment 16395385 cosmicj said:
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I agree with your completely logical take but think that there will be institutional pressures to play Jones. I’m not talking about the Maras but things like the fact that the Giants are paying him a lot of money and he will be 1st or 2nd on the depth chart.
I think there is a real fear that the front office will have to the narrative of "The Giants have the most expensive backup in the league. They are paying him $40M/year to hold a clipboard."
Whenever Jones is healthy, I think they are going to put him back in as the starter.
I think you’re right. The franchise is paralyzed by optics. Happened with the Eli benching and will probably happen again.
Yep.
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In comment 16395385 cosmicj said:
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I agree with your completely logical take but think that there will be institutional pressures to play Jones. I’m not talking about the Maras but things like the fact that the Giants are paying him a lot of money and he will be 1st or 2nd on the depth chart.
I think there is a real fear that the front office will have to the narrative of "The Giants have the most expensive backup in the league. They are paying him $40M/year to hold a clipboard."
Whenever Jones is healthy, I think they are going to put him back in as the starter.
I think you’re right. The franchise is paralyzed by optics. Happened with the Eli benching and will probably happen again.
You definitely can call it optics - and the easy headline $40M backup - will be hard for them to see in the press, but it is entirely the fault of ownership that the fans have to root for a team in this position and there are a lot of fatal flaws that brought us here.
Over-drafting him at #6, because they saw qualities in him that are relatively unimportant in a QB (looks like Eli, obsequious, clean-cut) was bad but defensible. Sticking with him through numerous failures, shows an inability to be honest with yourself (and I'm looking at you John Mara). In American pros sports you can't keep doubling down on poor players at key positions and expect to win anything of consequence. And then the disastrous contract at the first glimmer of hope. Hope and wishful thinking are not effective management strategies. They paid Jones that awful contract not for his ability, but for what they expected him to become after four years. And now it is hard to admit publicly they got it so wrong and so they might pretend nobody sees what they have done. We have eyes, ears and memories better than a flea. There is no hiding from one of the worst contracts in American sports history.
If they pretend they did not make a mistake with the Jones deal, they are just further compounding all the other mistakes outlined above. Aw3ful -- awful management.
lol
Those Colin Cowherd takes of he's a third rounder will be aging like milk rapidly.
He's a top 12 pick right now and always has been. Those judging his ability and traits by freaking statistics in a conservative, run based offense with no real NFL caliber wide receivers is hilarious. Combine, pro days and the interviews will be all the answer we need and what Schoen thinks of him. He could very well be the pick at 6. There will be some who hate it, but they should know right now he isn't falling past Denver. Maybe even Minnesota. Giants like him enough he's their pick unless someone were to jump ahead with the LAC.
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You are putting yourself in the perspective of a fan or the front office. There are around 100 players and coaches fighting their ass off for their job and the coaches are trying to build a culture. They can’t be concerned with next year draft position gamesmanship.
I stand by my point directed at those who insist winning those meaningless games in the second half of the season have value.
IE This is not settled science dude.
I think their are good arguments both ways and both can situationally correct to use.
IE not all team situations are the same
In general, as a believer in morale and team chemistry to build a long lasting, winning program. I believe "tanking" sends a bad message and believe players know however subtle you try to tank.
So. it is OK to lose when it is good for the owners, but I should play hurt? The players you might draft could be my replacement and we are going to lose to make that happen...
Morale destroyer IMO
Don't forget it's the fans fault. The fans don't care about meaningful or sustained excellence. They only care about 1-2 wins that help them have fun in December.
I read that about 200 times right here. Gem after gem here daily but that one might take the cake.
IE This is not settled science dude.
I think their are good arguments both ways and both can situationally correct to use.
IE not all team situations are the same
In general, as a believer in morale and team chemistry to build a long lasting, winning program. I believe "tanking" sends a bad message and believe players know however subtle you try to tank.
So. it is OK to lose when it is good for the owners, but I should play hurt? The players you might draft could be my replacement and we are going to lose to make that happen...
Morale destroyer IMO
I really wasn't talking about tanking. I was making the point that there are posters who think it was a good thing to finish 6-11 versus 2-15. That those four additional wins somehow created some team cultural impact that would catapult into 2024.
The only tangible result of those four additional wins is that they cost us a better draft position.