Aside from my “next day” reviews, I very rarely start a thread unless I see a transaction/coaching hire etc… that hasn’t been reported. After watching Mahomes win yet another Super Bowl I went down a thought path that I’m sure many on this board did, which is how long are we going to have to wait until its “our turn” again.
The Giants Roster has holes, a lot of them, but still the biggest and most glaring one is at QB. We were 1-5 with Jones as a starter and 5-6 with the combination of Devito/Taylor. As many holes as we have, I firmly believe if we had the ability to go almost .500 with the Devito/Taylor combo, we’d be a playoff team with an actual franchise QB. The holes would need to be filled to get us to the Super Bowl.
Like everyone on this board, I have no clue what the Giants will do in the draft. There seems to be a collective nervousness surrounding this topic amongst fans of the team and rightfully so. We have a QB that has constant injury issues and has only produced one “successful” season out of six. He’s also coming off a torn ACL. Our QB situation is not good and there is no arguing this.
The good news is that despite things seeming dire, watching Pat Mahomes win the Super Bowl last night can provide us some hope. Why? Because there is a lot that our front office, particularly Mara, can learn from the events that lead to the Chiefs drafting Mahomes.
Let’s start by looking at the 2017 NFL draft. Mahomes wasn’t the first pick, he also didn’t go in the top 5, he was actually the 10th pick and also wasn’t even the first quarterback taken. What great QB went before Mahomes??? Mitch Trubisky…
This means that not only was the NFL’s top QB not the top QB prospect in his draft class, but he was behind a guy that kind of stunk… All these arguments about needing to take a certain player are irrelevant, picking the 1st QB off the board is no guarantee of success.
Let’s also look at the idea of drafting a QB with the first overall pick. Some of you may view things differently, but in my opinion, there is one goal of playing in the NFL and that is winning a Super Bowl. With that measure of success in mind, how many QBs over the last 25 years have been the first overall pick and won a Super Bowl for the team who drafted them? The answer, just 1 and that would be Peyton Manning. Matt Stafford won a Super Bowl but with another team, as did Peyton Manning once with The Broncos and Eli Manning 2x with The Giants (we didn’t draft him…).
So now we’ve established that you do not need to pick #1 to get a Pat Mahomes, nor does picking a QB at #1 increase your odds of drafting a Super Bowl winning QB. We don’t pick first this year, so this gives us some hope.
Move forward to something that our front office, particularly John Mara, really needs to take a look at, this is the circumstances around KC drafting Mahomes. In the 2015 and 2016 seasons, prior to 2017 when Mahomes was drafted, the Chiefs had a starting QB (Alex Smith) that won 22 games, threw for just under 7,000 yards and 35 TDs during that span. They didn’t need a QB…
KC still drafted Mahomes and decided to let him develop for a year while Smith started for them. Smith turned around and had the best season of his career while Mahomes was on the bench posting a 4042yd 26TD and 5INT season.
Where most teams would take this as a sign to stick with Smith, the Chiefs went with their own evaluations and decided that the back up Mahomes was a better player. They traded Smith, started Mahomes the next season and the rest is history.
How does this relate to the Giants???
There seems to be two different streams of thought regarding why we can’t pick a QB. The first being that since we are picking 6th all the good QBs will be gone and the second is that since Jones was given a big contract, we’re stuck with him.
On point one about picking 6th, we need to be a little bit more comfortable with the idea that the draft isn’t guaranteed, and you never know what you’re getting until they play a game for you. Pat Mahomes was drafted after Mitch Trubisky, really think long and hard about how absurd that sounds 7 years later, but it was consensus in 2017 that Mitch was “the guy” and the prize of the draft. Heck, Sam Darnold and Baker Mayfield were picked before Josh Allen the following year.
Picking 1st or even the 1st QB guarantees you nothing. There is always a gamble to drafting QBs which is why you shouldn’t bat an eye regarding moving on if you’ve picked the wrong one.
Next is the contract and viewing Jones as “stuck” here. While I won’t try and sell anyone on Smith as a high-end franchise QB, he was better than Daniel Jones has been for us. Smith was a legitimate starting QB in the NFL and had value, however, he was not a star nor would I call him a franchise QB. Kansas City recognized that unless you have a top shelf player at QB, winning a Super Bowl is rather difficult. They decided to try and upgrade the position despite having someone in place.
What is the lesson here? Unless you have Pat Mahomes, don’t let having a QB stop you from trying to draft the next Pat Mahomes.
Tying this all up, I still have no clue what the franchise will do in the draft, but I have no issue giving my opinion which is that if they see a guy available at QB they think has franchise potential, they should draft him. There is no reason that the 3rd or 4th QB drafted won’t wind up the best of the group and Jones shouldn’t prohibit you from taking one, just as Smith didn’t deter KC.
The Giants should take a long hard look from KC’s path to landing Mahomes and how it paid off. Staying with Jones and hoping he turns it around isn’t a way to run a franchise. A lot of the best front offices don’t get things right the first time but they’re honest with their evaluations and are willing to admit a mistake then try and fix it. Most importantly, they know the value of a franchise QB and don’t stand pat until they have one.
There's NO way Barkley should be on this team this year, yet he probably will be.
They absolutely HAVE to move on from Jones, but probably won't
Mara's attachment to both players is a factor, but there are too many voices in the front office diluting the voice and power of the GM. I believe Schoen knows WHAT to do, but he may not be able to. Until this issue is resolved (and it may not be able to be), they will continue to be a bottom feeder in the league.
The problem is at what cost? The most extreme anti DJ poster here screams every year to 'take a QB, any QB'. That approach would have brought in another lack luster QB, leaving much better value on the board. On the flip side, quality picks were spent on bad players like Toney, or Baker (and maybe Neal), and maybe should have been spent on taking a flier on a QB. We'd probably be in the same situation, but also probably no worse off. The point is, though, that much better value than taking a flier QB could have been had over a not likely to succeed QB. Trading up uses even more resources, and should not be done unless you have good conviction.
Still, the point still stands that we should be looking to replace DJ. There's plenty of reasons why we haven't, mostly revolving around lack of realistic options given the choices and/or draft position. This year is no different. We're in a bad situation. At some point, the Giants are going to have to decide that they can't keep treading water waiting for next year for improved options. What's pissing off BBI as a whole is that this may not be the year they come to that realization, and BBI isn't patient enough to wait for the draft/FA to unfold before bitching incessantly about the incompetence of Giant brass.
I don't think drafting a QB at the top of the draft is as much of a "crapshoot" as people think it is. What you have to remember, is that the guys taken in the first few pick go to bad teams. Most often these are teams with constant turnover, impatient owners, and coaches in a "win now" situation. It is not surprising to me that so many never hit their potential.
Mahomes was picked by an organization that was winning and could afford to bring him along slowly. The saw the physical talent and could wait for the mind to catch up. Many teams can't and that is why the QBs fail. Consensus top picks rarely fool everybody.
What the Giants needs to do is determine which QB(s) they think can be a franchise guy - it can be more than one - and have a plan to go get them. And then they need to put the emphasis on grooming that player for success, whether that is starting Week 1 or not until his second year. Don't put him out there until he knows the offense and can read a defense. Some need to play to get that, some need to sit. You have to figure out which is which for your guy.
I don't care if Jones starts week 1 next year. He isn't important to this team's future. The injury guarantee is a problem so I would rather them start someone else who likely can't be much worse. But when the rookie plays should be decided on what is best for the rookie, not the season. This is a long term investment and you can't sell as soon as you need some quick cash.
This is the most important decision Schoen will make as Giants GM. If he gets it right it sets the team up for long term success. If he gets it wrong he won't be here to see the next QB.
Let's say McAdoo got his way and the Giants drafted Mahomes. I guess he could have sat behind Eli for at least a year, but then what? Instead of Reid, he would have had McAdoo as his coach. That's the same Ben McAdoo who took a 2 time Super Bowl MVP and "corrected" his basics McAdoo would have taken away every trait from Mahomes that made him great.
And if the Bears had picked him instead of Trubisky, he probably would have had to play immediately instead of sitting the first year to learn.
2. If the guy you drafted is going to be good, he's probably going to be good early. Mahomes was an MVP in year 2. Jackson, Burrow, Herbert, and Stroud are other examples that come to mind of guys playing very well immediately. It doesn't take many years; if you aren't seeing it by the end of year 2, it's time to start exploring options.
guess the year 2:
59%, 3100 yards, 20 tds, 9 ints, 6.7 y/a, +500 rushing 4.7 y/c.
There is more to sitting that learning from the starter. What you see in the NFL from defenses is not what you saw in college. Some guys get that right away, some need time. Mahomes played in an air raid system that does not translate to the NFL as easy, and so he may have needed more mental reps and coaching than someone coming from a pro-style offense.
I have no idea if that was the case. All of us can only guess. But I think you need to determine what a specific player needs, not simply assume what you want is what will make them succeed.
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if you aren't seeing it by the end of year 2, it's time to start exploring options.
guess the year 2:
59%, 3100 yards, 20 tds, 9 ints, 6.7 y/a, +500 rushing 4.7 y/c.
I think Josh Allen is an exception in a lot of ways. The improvement he's shown as a passer isn't something I'd use as a model.
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If anything I think Reid made a mistake not starting him from the outset. Mahomes didn't learn to play the way he does by watching Alex Smith. Mahomes was a great NFL QB the day he was drafted.
There is more to sitting that learning from the starter. What you see in the NFL from defenses is not what you saw in college. Some guys get that right away, some need time. Mahomes played in an air raid system that does not translate to the NFL as easy, and so he may have needed more mental reps and coaching than someone coming from a pro-style offense.
I have no idea if that was the case. All of us can only guess. But I think you need to determine what a specific player needs, not simply assume what you want is what will make them succeed.
sitting is a lot more about learning the playbook/scheme and learning how to prepare in the NFL from the coach than whoever the starting qb is.
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In comment 16396701 Go Terps said:
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if you aren't seeing it by the end of year 2, it's time to start exploring options.
guess the year 2:
59%, 3100 yards, 20 tds, 9 ints, 6.7 y/a, +500 rushing 4.7 y/c.
I think Josh Allen is an exception in a lot of ways. The improvement he's shown as a passer isn't something I'd use as a model.
i agree except for the fact that the giants are coached by the guy who made the right assessments on allen before it was obvious to the rest of us - which circles back to the point of my first post that these decisions always start with the guy making them more than anything else.
But yeah, you don't need the first pick in the draft to be successful, but I don't think that means you go out of your way to avoid a first overall QB just becasue more often that not, they don't end up being the best QB in the draft. Probably holds true for most positions; but statistically speaking, the higehr the draft pick, the more likely they are to be successful.
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In comment 16396716 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16396701 Go Terps said:
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if you aren't seeing it by the end of year 2, it's time to start exploring options.
guess the year 2:
59%, 3100 yards, 20 tds, 9 ints, 6.7 y/a, +500 rushing 4.7 y/c.
I think Josh Allen is an exception in a lot of ways. The improvement he's shown as a passer isn't something I'd use as a model.
i agree except for the fact that the giants are coached by the guy who made the right assessments on allen before it was obvious to the rest of us - which circles back to the point of my first post that these decisions always start with the guy making them more than anything else.
These same guys saw fit to pay Jones though, so one has to wonder about their acumen scouting QBs.
How many Mahomes are there in the past 10, 20, 30 years? How likely are Giants or any NFL team find a Mahomes level QB in the future drafts? How likely they can find a Purdy level QB in the future drafts?
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In comment 16396720 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16396716 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16396701 Go Terps said:
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if you aren't seeing it by the end of year 2, it's time to start exploring options.
guess the year 2:
59%, 3100 yards, 20 tds, 9 ints, 6.7 y/a, +500 rushing 4.7 y/c.
I think Josh Allen is an exception in a lot of ways. The improvement he's shown as a passer isn't something I'd use as a model.
i agree except for the fact that the giants are coached by the guy who made the right assessments on allen before it was obvious to the rest of us - which circles back to the point of my first post that these decisions always start with the guy making them more than anything else.
These same guys saw fit to pay Jones though, so one has to wonder about their acumen scouting QBs.
same guys also won a road playoff game with jones. and games against more than 1 playoff team this year with 2 different backup qbs. but i get it, harder to do the hyperbole schtick when opening both eyes.
The Giants seem to have evaluated him with their hearts and not their heads.
How many Mahomes are there in the past 10, 20, 30 years? How likely are Giants or any NFL team find a Mahomes level QB in the future drafts? How likely they can find a Purdy level QB in the future drafts?
oh brother...
Exactly. Allen wasn't some guy who completely unexpectedly revoked what appeared to be a sure bust label in year 3. His year 2 wasn't awesome statistically, but they made the playoffs in what was his first full season starting and he led the league in some promising categories (such as 4th quarter comebacks).
Something to learn for the 49ers is that if you whiff, you whiff. Trotting the same guy out for 6 years hoping it will finally click is insanity. 49ers drafted Lance, but kept bringing in QBs right up until the point where they found one they were happy with as a starter.
The failure rate on QBs is high. Teams need to get comfortable with this and realize that you may need to draft more than one guy before you find your next franchise QB.
1/3 of the league hasnt won a playoff game since the reese administration including pittsburgh.
The Giants seem to have evaluated him with their hearts and not their heads.
Allen was sensational in September of his year 3.
I know this has been discussed but there’s only been one 21st century QB I could spot who emerged as an upper tier player in their year 4 and that was Drew Brees. You could say Cousins except he was on the bench for his first 3 seasons but the moment he got the starting job, he posted good numbers. As part of the Jones debate in 2021, I combed through pro football reference looking for examples of QBs who took over 3 years to emerge, not as pro bowlers but as high level quality starters, and that’s the best I could come up with. It just doesn’t happen.
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1/3 of the league hasnt won a playoff game since the reese administration including pittsburgh.
So?
I don't know what your point is here. Are you saying the Giants have handled/are handling the QB position well?
Shit, they were basically doing that with Eli because they won the Super Bowl five years earlier. The one guy in the building smart enough to want to trade for Mahomes got thrown out on his ass, and some people that preferred to draft Davis Webb (probably in part because he wouldn't threaten Eli) are likely still in the building.
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1/3 of the league hasnt won a playoff game since the reese administration including pittsburgh.
That wildcard playoff win cost the Giants $92M in guarantees to Jones and another potential $23M in injury guarantees. For what, a couple of regular season wins?
But I guess that's what a B+/A type QB contract looks like these days.
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In comment 16396870 Go Terps said:
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1/3 of the league hasnt won a playoff game since the reese administration including pittsburgh.
So?
I don't know what your point is here. Are you saying the Giants have handled/are handling the QB position well?
reread my first post in the thread, and maybe every post on the subject in our exchanges for the last 3+ years.
you fall hook line sinker thinking there's some savior at qb just around the corner when in reality it all comes down to finding the same thing 2/3's of the league is looking for at the same time - a coach who can get that pick (and a bunch of other stuff) right. failure rate on coaches has probably surpassed qbs at this point.
You (and the Giants) have it reversed. The Giants anoint a savior and then make excuses if the savior isn't producing. That's been the policy for 20 years.
Also found a pretty good RB in the 7th round
Shit, they were basically doing that with Eli because they won the Super Bowl five years earlier. The one guy in the building smart enough to want to trade for Mahomes got thrown out on his ass, and some people that preferred to draft Davis Webb (probably in part because he wouldn't threaten Eli) are likely still in the building.
read jonc's post above and anita marks' tweet from 2017, apparently they had a coach who loved mahomes and as an organization made a failed effort to trade up. likely bc the coach didnt have the juice, the gm didnt have the fortitude, and the head of the draft was made more for tv than reality - which is why all involved havent held those positions since.
Instead of thinking the best qb has to be one of the top three maybe its one of the others?
JJ, Pratt, Rattler, Penix, Nix etc
I am not sold on any of the qb,s let alone the top three.
I am wondering if somehow JJ has the "it" factor.
You (and the Giants) have it reversed. The Giants anoint a savior and then make excuses if the savior isn't producing. That's been the policy for 20 years.
a) i've never declared anyone a savior (eli is prob going to the hof but nowhere near mahomes level)
b) he still won the giants 2 sbs in the last 20 years
c) as usual you are conflating some small scale bumper sticker tactics (competition! a plan! investment!) with a plan. pick the head coach wrong (as nyg clearly did between coughlin and daboll) and none of those things matter.
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The way the Giants handle the QB position, they would not have drafted Mahomes. They would have made Alex Smith one of the richest QBs in the league and said "We're back."
Shit, they were basically doing that with Eli because they won the Super Bowl five years earlier. The one guy in the building smart enough to want to trade for Mahomes got thrown out on his ass, and some people that preferred to draft Davis Webb (probably in part because he wouldn't threaten Eli) are likely still in the building.
read jonc's post above and anita marks' tweet from 2017, apparently they had a coach who loved mahomes and as an organization made a failed effort to trade up. likely bc the coach didnt have the juice, the gm didnt have the fortitude, and the head of the draft was made more for tv than reality - which is why all involved havent held those positions since.
Or because Eli was a sacred cow. Gettleman was hired shortly after to build around Eli, starting with drafting a RB #2 overall.
Shit, they were basically doing that with Eli because they won the Super Bowl five years earlier. The one guy in the building smart enough to want to trade for Mahomes got thrown out on his ass, and some people that preferred to draft Davis Webb (probably in part because he wouldn't threaten Eli) are likely still in the building.
In essence, this is the TL:DR version of my post and why I made it. I think the Giants would have done exactly what you think, held on to Smith, overpaid him and then acted shocked when it was 5 years later and they still haven't won a Super Bowl.
At some point in time Mara needs to realize these are players he's paying to perform a task, whenever we draft someone top 10 it isn't for John to make a new friend. If you can't see your QB winning you a Super Bowl, you need to move on from him. If Mara can see Jones driving down the field and beating Pat Mahomes next February, this franchise has bigger problems.
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In comment 16396928 Go Terps said:
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The way the Giants handle the QB position, they would not have drafted Mahomes. They would have made Alex Smith one of the richest QBs in the league and said "We're back."
Shit, they were basically doing that with Eli because they won the Super Bowl five years earlier. The one guy in the building smart enough to want to trade for Mahomes got thrown out on his ass, and some people that preferred to draft Davis Webb (probably in part because he wouldn't threaten Eli) are likely still in the building.
read jonc's post above and anita marks' tweet from 2017, apparently they had a coach who loved mahomes and as an organization made a failed effort to trade up. likely bc the coach didnt have the juice, the gm didnt have the fortitude, and the head of the draft was made more for tv than reality - which is why all involved havent held those positions since.
Or because Eli was a sacred cow. Gettleman was hired shortly after to build around Eli, starting with drafting a RB #2 overall.
eli was so sacred they tried to trade up for mahomes ('17), drafted webb ('17)/lauletta ('18)/jones ('19) (competition! turnover! investment!), and then benched eli 18 games into the gettleman era.
Throw him a few bucks for old times sake.
The first time Mahomes faced NFL defenses, it was clear he was a superb talent with an elite ceiling. Even with Josh Allen, despite his difficult first year, his enormous ceiling was plainly in evidence. Alternatively, the first time Lance and Young faced NFL defenses, it was crystal clear that neither will ever be elite. Could they develop into modest or below average starters in the NFL? Of course. But who cares? How pointless is it to invest in these types of players who will never accomplish anything in the league, other than to vindicate the original sin of drafting them in the first place.
So the proper course of action with these kinds of players is to cut bait asap, as the Niners did with Lance despite the fireable offense of a grossly excessive initial price tag. Tepper is making the same slow moving train wreck mistakes with his franchise, due to denial and self-preservation in support of his misguided opinion of Young, as Mara has made with DJ for years. It is a road to organization and franchise ruin.
We keep hearing "trust the process" from Schoen. But there is no process here as it relates to the quarterback position. Only double and triple downing with head scratching decisions to justify prior stupid decisions. Getting our elite quarterback will ultimately be delivered by implementing a process of positional fast failure where "trust the progress" in a competitive meritocracy, rather than an "emperor has no clothes" anointment, will be the only thing that matters.
Unfortunately, I just don't think Schoen has the doubt he should have about Jones to start that process of change.
But that will be answered definitively in this 45-day window: March 13th (start of free agency) and April 27th (end of the draft).
Like the Giants, the Chiefs are clearly a family business. Unlike the Giants, it seems like the Hunts stay the hell out of the way and let Reid and Veach be the football experts they are.
We keep hearing "trust the process" from Schoen. But there is no process here as it relates to the quarterback position. Only double and triple downing with head scratching decisions to justify prior stupid decisions. Getting our elite quarterback will ultimately be delivered by implementing a process of positional fast failure where "trust the progress" in a competitive meritocracy, rather than an "emperor has no clothes" anointment, will be the only thing that matters.
how many elite qbs do you believe are available on average in any draft class?
how would 'fast failure' have helped schoen secure 1 from the last 2 classes?
stroud is probably the only player that can be argued as a potentially elite qb in the last couple drafts and his team was doing the opposite of trading backwards last year.
Unfortunately, I just don't think Schoen has the doubt he should have about Jones to start that process of change.
But that will be answered definitively in this 45-day window: March 13th (start of free agency) and April 27th (end of the draft).
Like the Giants, the Chiefs are clearly a family business. Unlike the Giants, it seems like the Hunts stay the hell out of the way and let Reid and Veach be the football experts they are.
And Reid would have never come had they not provided a structure where the GM reported to Reid. Hunt obliged and success followed. He also knew to hire Reid as soon as he was available.
An owner is bad until they are good. The Chiefs were a rudderless forgetful franchise until they weren't. And now they are viewed as well run. A lot of it is just Reid & Mahomes. I think the Chiefs were 1-15 in 2011 with countless forgettable head coaches.
If the Giants ever got HC & QB right (I like Daboll and think he can be good), you'll hear people say about the Maras what they say about the Hunts now.
They'll need to figure out QB. Not to make excuses for Schoen, but had the 2022 draft had top ten QB prospects, I have no doubt Schoen would have drafted one. Last year, he couldn't trade up from 25 to draft Stroud or Richardson.
This is the spring we will find out.
The Chiefs had the 28th pick in the 2016 draft and they made a trade offer to Seattle (which held the 26th pick) because KC wanted to draft QB Paxton Lynch. Denver (which held the 31st pick) made a better offer to Seattle, and they ended up taking Lynch at 26.
With Lynch no longer on the board, the Chiefs traded out of RD-1 down to pick 37 and took Chris Jones. Then of course in 2017 the Chiefs traded up to take Mahomes.
So if things had worked out for the Chiefs the way they originally wanted it to, it would have meant no Mahomes, no Chris Jones and Paxton Lynch would have been their QB.
Sometimes you just get lucky.
That's all it is.
After 40 years, I can say the 49er dynasty of the '80s was all LUCK as well.
Better to be lucky than good.
That's the only comforting thing in this.....luck or lack thereof is something people can accept. Not getting the job done because you assume incompetence is very hard to deal with.
The way the NFL is now, you need luck more than ever.
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We keep hearing "trust the process" from Schoen. But there is no process here as it relates to the quarterback position. Only double and triple downing with head scratching decisions to justify prior stupid decisions. Getting our elite quarterback will ultimately be delivered by implementing a process of positional fast failure where "trust the progress" in a competitive meritocracy, rather than an "emperor has no clothes" anointment, will be the only thing that matters.
how many elite qbs do you believe are available on average in any draft class?
how would 'fast failure' have helped schoen secure 1 from the last 2 classes?
stroud is probably the only player that can be argued as a potentially elite qb in the last couple drafts and his team was doing the opposite of trading backwards last year.
The right choice for the Giants in 2020 was Herbert. So the search for an elite talent would have been over then. And don't talk to me about hindsight - many on this board including myself and JonC were screaming for the Giants to do precisely this at the time.
In 2021, the Giants could have traded DJ and drafted someone like Davis Mills as a solid young backup to compete with Herbert. In 2022, they could have drafted Purdy or Howell and traded Mills. This past year, they could have drafted a Hendon Hooker and traded Purdy.
This year, they simply have to get a quarterback. One could even argue they should draft more than one as the Redskins did in 2012 with RGIII and Cousins. So if one of the top three doesn't fall to them, (and by the way, if one of the top three falls to them and Schoen doesn't select him, Schoen needs to be fired on the spot), then perhaps go BPA at six and then trade up into the first round to get Nix/Penix/McCarthy. And then take someone like Pratt/Rattler/Hartman in the fourth round.
And if none of these guys show elite, do it again next year. And again. And again. Everything else is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic for this franchise.
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In comment 16397019 The Mike said:
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We keep hearing "trust the process" from Schoen. But there is no process here as it relates to the quarterback position. Only double and triple downing with head scratching decisions to justify prior stupid decisions. Getting our elite quarterback will ultimately be delivered by implementing a process of positional fast failure where "trust the progress" in a competitive meritocracy, rather than an "emperor has no clothes" anointment, will be the only thing that matters.
how many elite qbs do you believe are available on average in any draft class?
how would 'fast failure' have helped schoen secure 1 from the last 2 classes?
stroud is probably the only player that can be argued as a potentially elite qb in the last couple drafts and his team was doing the opposite of trading backwards last year.
The right choice for the Giants in 2020 was Herbert. So the search for an elite talent would have been over then. And don't talk to me about hindsight - many on this board including myself and JonC were screaming for the Giants to do precisely this at the time.
thank you for answering and dont worry about hindsight, i trust you said what you say you did at the time.
what i will mention is that 2020 is 4 drafts ago. so if your better path boils down to 1 qb out of about 40 who got drafted in the last 4 years you can say "pick a qb, and again, and again" and it sounds great - unless you are the coach forcing picks in the off years with pickett, willis, ridder, levis and then getting canned long before getting a shot at someone like herbert.
your initial comment i replied to was directed a gm who has been here for 2 years and needless to say in that time there's been no good answer in the last 2 drafts. which is why you went back 4 drafts to herbert. this year's draft is different so i suspect we will see something different play out.