Te Commanders are getting the version of Josh Harris that signed Tobias Harris to a max contract and let Jimmy Butler go, no the version of Harris that drafted Embiid and Maxey.
Sometimes, just making a change and different voices/approaches makes the difference.
Same reason people move, or change jobs.
Also - the Commanders OL was just as bad as ours - the Giants supercharged their below water negative stats in like 3 games, but Washington was consistently ineffective and terrible most of the time.
it wasn't Bobby Johnson and the talent he had to work with was sub par?
The only proven above average player on our line is Thomas. The rest have done nothing to instill confidence including JMS.
Neal's issue is not coaching. He cannot block the man in front of him because he is slow and has terrible balance and reaction time. Coaching is not fixing that.
Our new o line coach is not going to turn our mess of an o line around without fresh talent. And thinking he will is going to result in another year of terrible o line play.
Schoen needs to figure out how to draft o linemen and get good o linemen in FA.
it wasn't Bobby Johnson and the talent he had to work with was sub par?
The only proven above average player on our line is Thomas. The rest have done nothing to instill confidence including JMS.
Neal's issue is not coaching. He cannot block the man in front of him because he is slow and has terrible balance and reaction time. Coaching is not fixing that.
Our new o line coach is not going to turn our mess of an o line around without fresh talent. And thinking he will is going to result in another year of terrible o line play.
Schoen needs to figure out how to draft o linemen and get good o linemen in FA.
All of this might be true, however, let's take a look at how the Buffalo Oline performed under Bobby Johnson and since his departure.
It's very well accepted that their Oline has improved substantially in both pass protection and in the running game.
As we know, here with the Giants there has been little to no development from Neal, JMS, Ezedu, McKethan, nor Bredeson. That is a lot of evidence that Johnson was not the answer.
Once is an occurrence, twice is a pattern. Three times?
it wasn't Bobby Johnson and the talent he had to work with was sub par?
The only proven above average player on our line is Thomas. The rest have done nothing to instill confidence including JMS.
Neal's issue is not coaching. He cannot block the man in front of him because he is slow and has terrible balance and reaction time. Coaching is not fixing that.
Our new o line coach is not going to turn our mess of an o line around without fresh talent. And thinking he will is going to result in another year of terrible o line play.
Schoen needs to figure out how to draft o linemen and get good o linemen in FA.
Except Neal didn't have these issues in the SEC. And the Cowboys (who everyone here says know about OL) had Neal rated as the #1 player in the draft.
it wasn't Bobby Johnson and the talent he had to work with was sub par?
The only proven above average player on our line is Thomas. The rest have done nothing to instill confidence including JMS.
Neal's issue is not coaching. He cannot block the man in front of him because he is slow and has terrible balance and reaction time. Coaching is not fixing that.
Our new o line coach is not going to turn our mess of an o line around without fresh talent. And thinking he will is going to result in another year of terrible o line play.
Schoen needs to figure out how to draft o linemen and get good o linemen in FA.
Except Neal didn't have these issues in the SEC. And the Cowboys (who everyone here says know about OL) had Neal rated as the #1 player in the draft.
it wasn't Bobby Johnson and the talent he had to work with was sub par?
The only proven above average player on our line is Thomas. The rest have done nothing to instill confidence including JMS.
Neal's issue is not coaching. He cannot block the man in front of him because he is slow and has terrible balance and reaction time. Coaching is not fixing that.
Our new o line coach is not going to turn our mess of an o line around without fresh talent. And thinking he will is going to result in another year of terrible o line play.
Schoen needs to figure out how to draft o linemen and get good o linemen in FA.
By no means do I think our talent is good, but Johnson didn't exactly light the world on fire in Buffalo either and they were happy to let him walk and replace with Cromer.
There were communication and assignment issues all over the place, those things go on coaching. Maybe Johnson learns from his mistakes and does better in Washington, but he wasn't good here and he needed to go.
myself included. But it is entirely possible that our O line problems were more related to lack of talent than bad coaching. I am certainly in no position to judge the competency of our O line coach's ability to teach etc. And i suspect that most on this board are similarly lacking.
In any event, i am hopeful that the problem was Bobby J and we see great improvement with the new coach. Nothing would make me happier
myself included. But it is entirely possible that our O line problems were more related to lack of talent than bad coaching. I am certainly in no position to judge the competency of our O line coach's ability to teach etc. And i suspect that most on this board are similarly lacking.
In any event, i am hopeful that the problem was Bobby J and we see great improvement with the new coach. Nothing would make me happier
So the #7 overall pick sucked, our second round pick sucked, our third round pick sucked, a guy who started for a SB team sucked, our FA signing Glowinski sucked here...
I am not saying Johnson was not part of the problem. But I am saying the main problem is a lack of talent.
All those clamouring for a wide receiver at six remember that when our qb has no time to get him the ball.
You do realize that there is free agency and rounds 2-7 to address the offensive line right? The Giants need to add a good veteran guard to the line. Adding yet another inexperienced player in the top 10 for the third time in five years is not the way to go. If I was up to me I would take a guard on day 2 after signing a starting guard in free agency.
Under BJ none of the OL guys improved except Thomas but he was already on the rise. Glowinski was worse under BJ. No drafted players developed into what was expected in Neal, Ezeudo and JMS. It’s a pretty bad resume for him. I guess we will see.
To be fair to BJ, the Giants OL has been pathetic for a decade so he just stayed the course.
Neal is not a starting caliber tackle not now, not ever.
JMS has proved nothing.
Our guards have proved nothing.
When you cannot block the guy in front of you that is on the player. When you cannot pick up stunts that may be on coaching.
I saw Pugh get blown up time and again. Ezudo can't stay healthy. Mckethan didn't show much. Bredeson was better at center. Glowinski mailed it in.
Phillips, now injured was significantly better than Neal. Peart was terrible.
But somehow people see a lot of talent in that group. What are you looking at? Where are the four above average players in that group? Thomas is the only above average o linemen on the team. One out of five.
Schoen drafted Neal, JMS, Ezudo, Mckethan. None, I repeat none have panned out. That is where the problem is..poor drafting. Actually horrible drafting.
It's easier for Schoen to say it is coaching then to say he did a lousy job of drafting. So when his draft picks still stink after a new coach, then what?
Giants need to hire an o line draft specialist who does nothing but evaluate o linemen Someone who knows what the hell a good o line prospect looks like because they evidently have no clue.
Neal is not a starting caliber tackle not now, not ever.
JMS has proved nothing.
Our guards have proved nothing.
When you cannot block the guy in front of you that is on the player. When you cannot pick up stunts that may be on coaching.
I saw Pugh get blown up time and again. Ezudo can't stay healthy. Mckethan didn't show much. Bredeson was better at center. Glowinski mailed it in.
Phillips, now injured was significantly better than Neal. Peart was terrible.
But somehow people see a lot of talent in that group. What are you looking at? Where are the four above average players in that group? Thomas is the only above average o linemen on the team. One out of five.
Schoen drafted Neal, JMS, Ezudo, Mckethan. None, I repeat none have panned out. That is where the problem is..poor drafting. Actually horrible drafting.
It's easier for Schoen to say it is coaching then to say he did a lousy job of drafting. So when his draft picks still stink after a new coach, then what?
Giants need to hire an o line draft specialist who does nothing but evaluate o linemen Someone who knows what the hell a good o line prospect looks like because they evidently have no clue.
Wow
You have JMS all figured out after Bud rookie season
McKethan who missed his entire first year and all of camp his 2nd year and Ezudu who has had 2 injury plagued seasons and played out of position when he did play
Brilliant analysis
Msybe you can tell us more about how Mahomes can’t handle a blitz
Except Neal didn't have these issues in the SEC. And the Cowboys (who everyone here says know about OL) had Neal rated as the #1 player in the draft.
Actually, it was #2, Thibodeaux was #1, but your point remains the same. The Cowboys tend to draft upside/potential at the expense of a low floor, so not surprising that these two got their top grades. There were balance issues that several draftniks pointed out (including Sy'56 and Boylhart, two of my favorites), but none thought it was egregious enough to push him off a first round grade. About the worst anyone could say about him was that he belonged in the 10-15 range rather than top five or ten and given the Giants need at OT and the fact he would be a right tackle and not a left tackle for them, I don't see how anyone can fault the selection.
Quote:
...It seems we have some clarity on 34 of the top 39 names on Dallas' draft board. To wit, starting with verification that the Cowboys told the truth about having "14 first-round grades'' on prospects (and where they landed):
1. Kayvon Thibodeaux, DE, Oregon: drafted fifth overall by the Giants.
2. Evan Neal, OT, Alabama: drafted seventh overall by the Giants.
3. Aidan Hutchinson, DE, Michigan: drafted second overall by the Lions.
4. Garrett Wilson, WR, Ohio State: drafted 10th overall by the Jets.
5. Ahmad Gardner, CB, Cincinnati: drafted fourth overall by the Jets.
6. Derek Stingley, CB, LSU: drafted third overall by the Texans.
7. Travon Walker, DE, Georgia: drafted first overall by the Jaguars.
8. Kyle Hamilton, S, Notre Dame: drafted 14th overall by the Ravens.
9. Ikem Ekwonu, OT, North Carolina State: drafted sixth overall by the Panthers.
10. Drake London, WR, USC: drafted eighth overall by the Falcons.
11. Jordan Davis, DT, Georgia: drafted 13th overall by the Eagles.
12. Charles Cross, OT, Mississippi State: drafted ninth overall by the Seahawks.
13. Lewis Cine, S, Georgia: drafted 32nd overall by the Vikings.
14. Jameson Williams, WR, Alabama: drafted 12th overall by the Lions.
This is also a reminder for some that, in general, most NFL scouting departments only hand out 18 to 20 or so first round grades per draft. Apparently the Cowboys only had 14 with first round grades!
p.s.--If I were to criticize the Neal selection it would be based on the fact that the Giants already had a Pro Bowl left tackle so it's a questionable use of resources when you spend a top ten pick on an OT destined for right tackle.
No need to upgrade. Coaching will fix everything. Instead lets draft a receiver and a running back since our o line is now fixed. Brilliant.
The answer in 2024 to the Giants OL woes is to make signing a blue chip OG in free agency who can be effective enough sliding out to right tackle if Neal were to flop. I haven't delved into availability, but there's usually at least one blue chip OG available in free agency each year. The Giants need to make sure they are the team to land him. I'm not against drafting another OL, but I'm thinking more 4th or 5th round than 1st or 2nd round.
Of o line to improve except for Thomas and lets say JMD. The others after two years on the team have shown nothing. If we assume one of them can play at an average level and that JMS improves to average we still are short two o linemen just to hopefully get to average.
The cost of good fa o linemen is high and we don't have much cap space. Signing two fa linemen means no Barkley or Mckinney which creates two holes on the roster.
Draft a right tackle first. Guard in second. At least then you have competition and depth both of which we need.
Regardless of who our qb is no one will be effective until the line is fixed. Same goes for resigning Barkley. Why resign him and waste his talent behind a poor o libe.
RE: Problem is we cannot count on the current group
Of o line to improve except for Thomas and lets say JMD. The others after two years on the team have shown nothing. If we assume one of them can play at an average level and that JMS improves to average we still are short two o linemen just to hopefully get to average.
The cost of good fa o linemen is high and we don't have much cap space. Signing two fa linemen means no Barkley or Mckinney which creates two holes on the roster.
Draft a right tackle first. Guard in second. At least then you have competition and depth both of which we need.
Regardless of who our qb is no one will be effective until the line is fixed. Same goes for resigning Barkley. Why resign him and waste his talent behind a poor o libe.
So you want to spend a 1st rd pick for “competition” for a position?
But he was not playing at an All-Pro level until 22/23.
Can we ever be objective?
Or is this going to be just like Daniel Jones arguments, and everything bad about O-line was Bobby Johnson’s fault and everything good was because of something else that had nothing to do with Bobby Johnson?
Haha well done
The Giants may dodge a bullet.
Hopefully he does exactly as good as a job in Washington as he did here...
Sometimes, just making a change and different voices/approaches makes the difference.
Same reason people move, or change jobs.
Also - the Commanders OL was just as bad as ours - the Giants supercharged their below water negative stats in like 3 games, but Washington was consistently ineffective and terrible most of the time.
The only way literally is up for both teams.
The only proven above average player on our line is Thomas. The rest have done nothing to instill confidence including JMS.
Neal's issue is not coaching. He cannot block the man in front of him because he is slow and has terrible balance and reaction time. Coaching is not fixing that.
Our new o line coach is not going to turn our mess of an o line around without fresh talent. And thinking he will is going to result in another year of terrible o line play.
Schoen needs to figure out how to draft o linemen and get good o linemen in FA.
The only proven above average player on our line is Thomas. The rest have done nothing to instill confidence including JMS.
Neal's issue is not coaching. He cannot block the man in front of him because he is slow and has terrible balance and reaction time. Coaching is not fixing that.
Our new o line coach is not going to turn our mess of an o line around without fresh talent. And thinking he will is going to result in another year of terrible o line play.
Schoen needs to figure out how to draft o linemen and get good o linemen in FA.
All of this might be true, however, let's take a look at how the Buffalo Oline performed under Bobby Johnson and since his departure.
It's very well accepted that their Oline has improved substantially in both pass protection and in the running game.
As we know, here with the Giants there has been little to no development from Neal, JMS, Ezedu, McKethan, nor Bredeson. That is a lot of evidence that Johnson was not the answer.
Once is an occurrence, twice is a pattern. Three times?
The only proven above average player on our line is Thomas. The rest have done nothing to instill confidence including JMS.
Neal's issue is not coaching. He cannot block the man in front of him because he is slow and has terrible balance and reaction time. Coaching is not fixing that.
Our new o line coach is not going to turn our mess of an o line around without fresh talent. And thinking he will is going to result in another year of terrible o line play.
Schoen needs to figure out how to draft o linemen and get good o linemen in FA.
Except Neal didn't have these issues in the SEC. And the Cowboys (who everyone here says know about OL) had Neal rated as the #1 player in the draft.
Quote:
it wasn't Bobby Johnson and the talent he had to work with was sub par?
The only proven above average player on our line is Thomas. The rest have done nothing to instill confidence including JMS.
Neal's issue is not coaching. He cannot block the man in front of him because he is slow and has terrible balance and reaction time. Coaching is not fixing that.
Our new o line coach is not going to turn our mess of an o line around without fresh talent. And thinking he will is going to result in another year of terrible o line play.
Schoen needs to figure out how to draft o linemen and get good o linemen in FA.
Except Neal didn't have these issues in the SEC. And the Cowboys (who everyone here says know about OL) had Neal rated as the #1 player in the draft.
yup
The only proven above average player on our line is Thomas. The rest have done nothing to instill confidence including JMS.
Neal's issue is not coaching. He cannot block the man in front of him because he is slow and has terrible balance and reaction time. Coaching is not fixing that.
Our new o line coach is not going to turn our mess of an o line around without fresh talent. And thinking he will is going to result in another year of terrible o line play.
Schoen needs to figure out how to draft o linemen and get good o linemen in FA.
By no means do I think our talent is good, but Johnson didn't exactly light the world on fire in Buffalo either and they were happy to let him walk and replace with Cromer.
There were communication and assignment issues all over the place, those things go on coaching. Maybe Johnson learns from his mistakes and does better in Washington, but he wasn't good here and he needed to go.
Thomas was already doing well the year before Johnson got here.
No one, and I mean no one, improved under Johnson. In fact, every player, veteran or young, took a step back.
In any event, i am hopeful that the problem was Bobby J and we see great improvement with the new coach. Nothing would make me happier
In any event, i am hopeful that the problem was Bobby J and we see great improvement with the new coach. Nothing would make me happier
So the #7 overall pick sucked, our second round pick sucked, our third round pick sucked, a guy who started for a SB team sucked, our FA signing Glowinski sucked here...
I sense a trend
I am not saying Johnson was not part of the problem. But I am saying the main problem is a lack of talent.
All those clamouring for a wide receiver at six remember that when our qb has no time to get him the ball.
I am not saying Johnson was not part of the problem. But I am saying the main problem is a lack of talent.
All those clamouring for a wide receiver at six remember that when our qb has no time to get him the ball.
What the heck are you even talking about?
The only hold over on the o-line before Johnson came here was Thomas
SMH
I am not saying Johnson was not part of the problem. But I am saying the main problem is a lack of talent.
All those clamouring for a wide receiver at six remember that when our qb has no time to get him the ball.
You do realize that there is free agency and rounds 2-7 to address the offensive line right? The Giants need to add a good veteran guard to the line. Adding yet another inexperienced player in the top 10 for the third time in five years is not the way to go. If I was up to me I would take a guard on day 2 after signing a starting guard in free agency.
And you know this how?
When a team still can’t pick up a stunt in week 17….yea….thats a coaching problem
Quote:
Then why have all the coaches before him failed?
I am not saying Johnson was not part of the problem. But I am saying the main problem is a lack of talent.
All those clamouring for a wide receiver at six remember that when our qb has no time to get him the ball.
What the heck are you even talking about?
The only hold over on the o-line before Johnson came here was Thomas
SMH
As well as Peart and Lemeix. But they both still suck, and or have gotten worse under Johnson, so your point stands.
That will not happen....
Under BJ none of the OL guys improved except Thomas but he was already on the rise. Glowinski was worse under BJ. No drafted players developed into what was expected in Neal, Ezeudo and JMS. It’s a pretty bad resume for him. I guess we will see.
To be fair to BJ, the Giants OL has been pathetic for a decade so he just stayed the course.
Beat me to it!
Neal is not a starting caliber tackle not now, not ever.
JMS has proved nothing.
Our guards have proved nothing.
When you cannot block the guy in front of you that is on the player. When you cannot pick up stunts that may be on coaching.
I saw Pugh get blown up time and again. Ezudo can't stay healthy. Mckethan didn't show much. Bredeson was better at center. Glowinski mailed it in.
Phillips, now injured was significantly better than Neal. Peart was terrible.
But somehow people see a lot of talent in that group. What are you looking at? Where are the four above average players in that group? Thomas is the only above average o linemen on the team. One out of five.
Schoen drafted Neal, JMS, Ezudo, Mckethan. None, I repeat none have panned out. That is where the problem is..poor drafting. Actually horrible drafting.
It's easier for Schoen to say it is coaching then to say he did a lousy job of drafting. So when his draft picks still stink after a new coach, then what?
Giants need to hire an o line draft specialist who does nothing but evaluate o linemen Someone who knows what the hell a good o line prospect looks like because they evidently have no clue.
Neal is not a starting caliber tackle not now, not ever.
JMS has proved nothing.
Our guards have proved nothing.
When you cannot block the guy in front of you that is on the player. When you cannot pick up stunts that may be on coaching.
I saw Pugh get blown up time and again. Ezudo can't stay healthy. Mckethan didn't show much. Bredeson was better at center. Glowinski mailed it in.
Phillips, now injured was significantly better than Neal. Peart was terrible.
But somehow people see a lot of talent in that group. What are you looking at? Where are the four above average players in that group? Thomas is the only above average o linemen on the team. One out of five.
Schoen drafted Neal, JMS, Ezudo, Mckethan. None, I repeat none have panned out. That is where the problem is..poor drafting. Actually horrible drafting.
It's easier for Schoen to say it is coaching then to say he did a lousy job of drafting. So when his draft picks still stink after a new coach, then what?
Giants need to hire an o line draft specialist who does nothing but evaluate o linemen Someone who knows what the hell a good o line prospect looks like because they evidently have no clue.
Wow
You have JMS all figured out after Bud rookie season
McKethan who missed his entire first year and all of camp his 2nd year and Ezudu who has had 2 injury plagued seasons and played out of position when he did play
Brilliant analysis
Msybe you can tell us more about how Mahomes can’t handle a blitz
Instead lets draft a receiver and a running back since our o line is now fixed.
Brilliant.
Except Neal didn't have these issues in the SEC. And the Cowboys (who everyone here says know about OL) had Neal rated as the #1 player in the draft.
1. Kayvon Thibodeaux, DE, Oregon: drafted fifth overall by the Giants.
2. Evan Neal, OT, Alabama: drafted seventh overall by the Giants.
3. Aidan Hutchinson, DE, Michigan: drafted second overall by the Lions.
4. Garrett Wilson, WR, Ohio State: drafted 10th overall by the Jets.
5. Ahmad Gardner, CB, Cincinnati: drafted fourth overall by the Jets.
6. Derek Stingley, CB, LSU: drafted third overall by the Texans.
7. Travon Walker, DE, Georgia: drafted first overall by the Jaguars.
8. Kyle Hamilton, S, Notre Dame: drafted 14th overall by the Ravens.
9. Ikem Ekwonu, OT, North Carolina State: drafted sixth overall by the Panthers.
10. Drake London, WR, USC: drafted eighth overall by the Falcons.
11. Jordan Davis, DT, Georgia: drafted 13th overall by the Eagles.
12. Charles Cross, OT, Mississippi State: drafted ninth overall by the Seahawks.
13. Lewis Cine, S, Georgia: drafted 32nd overall by the Vikings.
14. Jameson Williams, WR, Alabama: drafted 12th overall by the Lions.
p.s.--If I were to criticize the Neal selection it would be based on the fact that the Giants already had a Pro Bowl left tackle so it's a questionable use of resources when you spend a top ten pick on an OT destined for right tackle.
Instead lets draft a receiver and a running back since our o line is now fixed.
Brilliant.
Won’t fix everything but it will help development along with a FA acquisition
The cost of good fa o linemen is high and we don't have much cap space. Signing two fa linemen means no Barkley or Mckinney which creates two holes on the roster.
Draft a right tackle first. Guard in second. At least then you have competition and depth both of which we need.
Regardless of who our qb is no one will be effective until the line is fixed. Same goes for resigning Barkley. Why resign him and waste his talent behind a poor o libe.
The cost of good fa o linemen is high and we don't have much cap space. Signing two fa linemen means no Barkley or Mckinney which creates two holes on the roster.
Draft a right tackle first. Guard in second. At least then you have competition and depth both of which we need.
Regardless of who our qb is no one will be effective until the line is fixed. Same goes for resigning Barkley. Why resign him and waste his talent behind a poor o libe.
So you want to spend a 1st rd pick for “competition” for a position?
Were you fed paint chips as a child?
Man…you really say some utterly bizarre things
Can we ever be objective?
Or is this going to be just like Daniel Jones arguments, and everything bad about O-line was Bobby Johnson’s fault and everything good was because of something else that had nothing to do with Bobby Johnson?