Attracts a mass audience with their entertainment/celeb choices etc.
I have felt a lot this year “core fans” losing wnthusiasm for this whole thing, including myself tbh. It just feels like the whole event is getting a bit out of control and less appealing to footballfans. I felt the actual game was incredible though and awesome to see hard hitting again for first tine natve all year.
The media reports this it feels like every year and my initial reaction is of course it's the highest rated ... of all time. There are simply more viewers in 2024 than 2004, 1994, 1984, etc.
It's creating more separation with the other leagues. Christmas day used to be NBA real estate, the NFL took it from them. It's just another example of the NFL strategically pushing away the competition.
The NFL used to not play on Sunday night due to the World Series, imagine that? Now they put a huge marquee SNF game against the World Series and triple the rating.
Attracts a mass audience with their entertainment/celeb choices etc.
I have felt a lot this year “core fans” losing wnthusiasm for this whole thing, including myself tbh. It just feels like the whole event is getting a bit out of control and less appealing to football fans. I felt the actual game was incredible though and awesome to see hard hitting again for first tine natve all year.
As a fan of a team not involved its brutal. This was a strong finish of a highly competitive game but really didn't have the feel of it. Championship and Divisional rounds were so much more enjoyable.
It's creating more separation with the other leagues. Christmas day used to be NBA real estate, the NFL took it from them. It's just another example of the NFL strategically pushing away the competition.
The NFL used to not play on Sunday night due to the World Series, imagine that? Now they put a huge marquee SNF game against the World Series and triple the rating.
Yup, the NFL is quite literally becoming the only live content anyone gives a shit about.
This will most certainly impact the broadcast and cost model for fans.
The media reports this it feels like every year and my initial reaction is of course it's the highest rated ... of all time. There are simply more viewers in 2024 than 2004, 1994, 1984, etc.
As a fan, do you really care? If so, why?
It may “feel” this way but this is not true. There was actually a 4 year decline in viewership. So it great news for the NFL.
It just feels like the whole event is getting a bit out of control and less appealing to football fans.
Agree 100%
The whole "show" has gotten out of control. If feels like the game is now the halftime performance vs the focus.
Regarding the numbers, remember to also dive into what countries the views are coming from and where the increases are. I know the NFL has marketed to other countries. I would be more interested in what the US only views look like over time.
the NFL to pull the Peacock bullshit, they know people are going to watch so they can only show games on obscure broadcast avenues that require fans to pay more so they can make more. Thursday night football and games in Germany or the UK at 9:30 am on a Sunday is the NFL being arrogant, peacock or amazon prime broadcasts are obnoxious.
As fans, or maybe some will say old get off my lawn fans, this type of result is not good for the fans. it will only encourage more of this behavior and not grow the game in good ways but instead pull it in more directions that are irrelevant to the core fans.
I hope the NFL has an Icarus event, but it would need to be disastrous to be analogous and I don't think it's possible at this point.
I think the definition of core fan is probably changing.
This probably hits closer to the truth than many realize. It explains much, both from their actions and responses.
But this encompasses a lot of ground... teams making the in-person, game-day experience out of the financial range of the middle class, the internationalization of the game, the shift away from the football junkie to those looking for a selfie to post on the social media account, the merging of the game with the celebrities, the constant tweaking of the rules to promote offense, etc.
For better or worse, the entire experience will soon be completely different. Look at the Draft as just one example.
I think the definition of core fan is probably changing.
... the shift away from the football junkie to those looking for a selfie to post on the social media account, the merging of the game with the celebrities, the constant tweaking of the rules to promote offense, etc.
NFL Network is a great example of this. I had such high hopes. It started out great and then quickly became an MTV type network that dabbles in football.
I usually don't see the point in griping about this stuff
but I gotta say, seeing "Taylor's Version" slapped on everything really does bug the shit out of me. Super Bowl (Taylor's Version!), for example. Kinda wanna take all these folks and just launch them into the sun. I watched some of the second half Sunday, as others have said my interest has gone from breathing football from sun up to sun down from watching Giants games, half disinterested. Hey tho, fantasy football is so much fun.
but they had the two best teams playing(sorry Ravens), the Taylor Swift phenomenon and a pretty good game on top.
We can piss and moan about how the NFL conducts business, but they seem to know what they are doing.
Yes and no. They became vocal about subjects they shouldn't have touched and backed off (at least publicly). They've decided to "go Hollywood" (for lack of a better phrase) and it has helped.
But many of the football-related changes and commercialization have made the viewing experience noticeably worse for anyone over 40-50 years old. This gets into the actual quality of play as well as the way the game is presented.
They are seeking a new, bigger audience that is less committed to the product.... the casual fan over the diehard one. It is what it is.
What the numbers show is the NFL is attracting new viewers without alienating their legacy viewers. I bet the opinion of many BBIers is shared by more hardcore fans of other teams -- that many of the developments under Goodell have been annoying. But that hasn't changed their actions.
Slight tangent, but the NFL has an absolute dynamite product for junkies. NFL+ Premium is a total goldmine.
What the numbers show is the NFL is attracting new viewers without alienating their legacy viewers. I bet the opinion of many BBIers is shared by more hardcore fans of other teams -- that many of the developments under Goodell have been annoying. But that hasn't changed their actions.
Slight tangent, but the NFL has an absolute dynamite product for junkies. NFL+ Premium is a total goldmine.
Based on what I've seen on BBI and on social media, diehard fans are watching a lot less pro football than they did 10 years ago. I do. I watch the Giants and maybe one other game (maybe) each weekend. I see people talking about it all of the time here. In addition, the non-Giants gameday threads are a lot less commented on than in the past.
10 years ago, a Monday night thread would be filled with posters and commentary. Not so much anymore.
Fans have gotten a lot dumber about the game. Madden and Summerall used to praise how smart Giants fans were about football. Have you read comments from Giants fans on Twitter? It's like they've been eating paint chips.
What the numbers show is the NFL is attracting new viewers without alienating their legacy viewers. I bet the opinion of many BBIers is shared by more hardcore fans of other teams -- that many of the developments under Goodell have been annoying. But that hasn't changed their actions.
Slight tangent, but the NFL has an absolute dynamite product for junkies. NFL+ Premium is a total goldmine.
Based on what I've seen on BBI and on social media, diehard fans are watching a lot less pro football than they did 10 years ago. I do. I watch the Giants and maybe one other game (maybe) each weekend. I see people talking about it all of the time here. In addition, the non-Giants gameday threads are a lot less commented on than in the past.
10 years ago, a Monday night thread would be filled with posters and commentary. Not so much anymore.
I wonder if some of that has to do with where Giants fans gravitate for online discussion today vs. 10 years ago.
With all due respect to BBI, which is my go-to, a lot of fans spend their time and keystrokes discussing the game in short bursts on Twitter and Instagram, and not long form discussion boards.
I do agree there is probably centralization of fans to fewer games outside of their core team. But the NFL is doing magic then attracting new core viewers, because their rating are fantastic.
My college aged daughter emailed me after the SB to ask if I won my big SB square pool and told me she was a Kelce anytime TD away from hitting her 9-leg parlay.
WTF? She could not have been any less interested in football growing up, but now she has a draft kings account and bets $2 parlays to win whatever thousands.
and it's becoming rampant and will only expand. I do think it impacts viewership in ways that people may not have totally expected. Possibly in a big way.
I can tell you 2nd hand the NFL doesn't underestimate it at all. It's their number one strategic acquisition channel. They couple fantasy + gambling in the same bucket.
They believe fans will come for the gambling and stay for the football.
but they had the two best teams playing(sorry Ravens), the Taylor Swift phenomenon and a pretty good game on top.
We can piss and moan about how the NFL conducts business, but they seem to know what they are doing.
Yes and no. They became vocal about subjects they shouldn't have touched and backed off (at least publicly). They've decided to "go Hollywood" (for lack of a better phrase) and it has helped.
But many of the football-related changes and commercialization have made the viewing experience noticeably worse for anyone over 40-50 years old. This gets into the actual quality of play as well as the way the game is presented.
They are seeking a new, bigger audience that is less committed to the product.... the casual fan over the diehard one. It is what it is.
I didn't say it was better from a NFL fan perspective. I meant from the money making POV.
Yes, we old time NFL fans dislike the restrictions in place, many in the name of player safety. I do not like the streaming aspect, but it makes them money. Not a fan of TNF, but still tune in. Not sure about games in Europe.
But this encompasses a lot of ground... teams making the in-person, game-day experience out of the financial range of the middle class, the internationalization of the game, the shift away from the football junkie to those looking for a selfie to post on the social media account, the merging of the game with the celebrities, the constant tweaking of the rules to promote offense, etc.
For better or worse, the entire experience will soon be completely different. Look at the Draft as just one example.
Exactly true, at least for me. The NFL I grew up with was all about the game, plain and simple. I watch a lot of old games from the '70s and '80s on YouTube because I find them to be superior football broadcasts, in most ways, to what we see today. I don't care about celebrity culture, or fantasy football, and I don't gamble. None of that interests me in the slightest, but it's all what the NFL focuses on today. I find it repellent.
Yes, I still watch the Giants, and I still (mostly) watch the playoffs. But my viewing of other teams continues to dwindle.
Based on what I've seen on BBI and on social media, diehard fans are watching a lot less pro football than they did 10 years ago. I do. I watch the Giants and maybe one other game (maybe) each weekend. I see people talking about it all of the time here. In addition, the non-Giants gameday threads are a lot less commented on than in the past.
10 years ago, a Monday night thread would be filled with posters and commentary. Not so much anymore.
How much of that is because they've gotten 10 years older?
It's easy to compare your own behavior now to your behavior 10 years ago and observe that you're watching less football now, or watching it with less fervor or devotion than you did 10 years ago. And you can simultaneously observe the environmental factors that may have contributed to that, and assign them the full causality. I think many can relate; I can.
I'd offer as a counter that my brothers, who are 10 and 13 years older than me, also experienced their enthusiasm waning between age 35 and 50. My father, who was 35 years older than me, also experienced his enthusiasm waning between age 35 and 50. Different eras for each, but the same age range for each.
In other words, there may have been factors that nudged you away from the same level of passion that you had 10 years ago, but it also may be (in some part) the fact that it's inevitable that all people will eventually age out of the target demographic for the NFL's commercial productions, and it will feel like the product is changing for the worse. And while that may be objectively true for you (and your perception), neither party is actually static.
Most mainstream products are targeted toward people who are younger than your typical BBI poster. When we were in that targeted age range, the product felt like it fit our lifestyles more appropriately because it was built that way. Now that we're getting older, it's not actually intended for us. But that's been the case for a long time. We just weren't out of the target demo for most of that time.
I have a bit of an oddball personality, and have always rejected outside influences impacting things I like. In my 20s I watched the Giants at bars because I couldn't afford Sunday Ticket and I lived in San Francisco, and got used to not hearing the commentary.
So now I watch the games at home with the sound basically off because I don't need someone who knows less about football than me talking over the game.
I also don't watch the pre/post game coverage. I didn't even know the NFL was doing so much co-marketing with the gambling and gaming industry until I had some professional interests in it.
So for me the presentation of the game is very much the same it was 20 years ago. I totally get I'm not the average viewer though.
football is still great and the game itself was pretty good
what I have aged out of is the pre and post game stuff. I think it's all terrible. Remember how good "This week in football" used to be back in the day. There is no longer a good weekly recap of the weekends games. You barely see 30 second snippets.
And the Red Zone, if your team is not playing, still gets it right. That is a well produced football lovers dream of a broadcast. Charge $10 more per season and have those guys produce a highlight show and I would be all in.
I am sure we can all agree that fantasy football has had a huge impact on viewership. I wish we could measure it. I find myself watching so many other games because there are fantasy implications for me.
Wondering what the US numbers would look like without fantasy football.
Should payTaylor Swift enormous sums of money to hold a free concert given the boost she delivered to their valuations through increased ratings, merch sales, new fans etc
GD, great post. Related, and maybe actually fruit of the same tree, the phenomenon that when you loved something most, is when it was the best. Cuts across music, film, society at large.
I have a bit of an oddball personality, and have always rejected outside influences impacting things I like. In my 20s I watched the Giants at bars because I couldn't afford Sunday Ticket and I lived in San Francisco, and got used to not hearing the commentary.
So now I watch the games at home with the sound basically off because I don't need someone who knows less about football than me talking over the game.
I also don't watch the pre/post game coverage. I didn't even know the NFL was doing so much co-marketing with the gambling and gaming industry until I had some professional interests in it.
So for me the presentation of the game is very much the same it was 20 years ago. I totally get I'm not the average viewer though.
Always wished they would simulcast a gameday stadium experience. Nothing but crowd/field noise and the PA announcer. I've never really enjoyed the talking heads and sideline reports. If we can get a Nickelodeon broadcast can't we have this too (and i enjoy the Nick broadcast for a little bit - it really got my 8 year old watching much more intently)
Should payTaylor Swift enormous sums of money to hold a free concert given the boost she delivered to their valuations through increased ratings, merch sales, new fans etc
On the flip side, this could go bad. What happens if Kelce is an a-hole. What if he cheats on her, is mean to her and it all comes out? It would be a PR nightmare for the entire league.
My college aged daughter emailed me after the SB to ask if I won my big SB square pool and told me she was a Kelce anytime TD away from hitting her 9-leg parlay.
WTF? She could not have been any less interested in football growing up, but now she has a draft kings account and bets $2 parlays to win whatever thousands.
and it's becoming rampant and will only expand. I do think it impacts viewership in ways that people may not have totally expected. Possibly in a big way.
The decision by the NFL and the networks to shamelessly promote this vice all simply because of greed is going to have a harmful impact on the socio-economic status of millions for generations.
It's really quite appalling, especially given the popularity of the sport with young people.
I am no saint, but I worry about how much the NFL-& other leagues too-are leaning into gambling. I see a lot of my younger coworkers waging heavily on games. Every podcast I listen to seemingly have gambling ads.
Should payTaylor Swift enormous sums of money to hold a free concert given the boost she delivered to their valuations through increased ratings, merch sales, new fans etc
I think the whole thing is a PR stunt and they will break up this Summer. A well executed PR stunt
But the game isn't as good. From a view perspective, the commercial breaks are longer and there are more of them. They are legislating away special teams and defense. Fundamentals are at an all-time low. Non-contact injuries are up. When the winning TD is scored in the championship game, I have to listen to Romo babble while getting shots of celebrities in the stands.
Put on Super Bowl XXI, XXV. Hell, put on Super Bowl XLII. Tell me there isn't a difference.
I turned off the pre-game shows decades ago. That wasn't because I was getting older. The Draft has gotten ridiculous.
But the game isn't as good. From a view perspective, the commercial breaks are longer and there are more of them. They are legislating away special teams and defense. Fundamentals are at an all-time low. Non-contact injuries are up. When the winning TD is scored in the championship game, I have to listen to Romo babble while getting shots of celebrities in the stands.
Put on Super Bowl XXI, XXV. Hell, put on Super Bowl XLII. Tell me there isn't a difference.
I turned off the pre-game shows decades ago. That wasn't because I was getting older. The Draft has gotten ridiculous.
This is who the NFL is catering to now.... Narcissists and #GROCERIES - ( New Window )
I don't disagree with any of that. I just think that's more reflective of the world we live in than it is a reflection of the NFL's evolution or their unquenched thirst for incremental commercialization.
For example, there isn't any appointment TV anymore besides live sports, so the demand for those ad units far outpaces the supply (so logic dictates that the supply should increase). We now see more commercials during NFL games and it feels like a change for the worse. But most people are streaming more content now, and are probably viewing fewer commercials in general (across all TV shows they consume), but much more of them are during NFL content.
That's just one scenario where, in a vacuum, the NFL product is getting worse to many of us, and getting saturated with non-football elements. But some of that is a response to its place in the overall media consumption landscape.
- I rarely watch any night games anymore. They go on far too long and don’t even get me started with the abomination of TNF.
- there is way too much football in if you include college. There’s some type of game on every day of the week. Football use to be mostly two days a week: college on Saturday and NFL on Sunday.
- the play is so poor and it takes way too long.
- the amount of coverage of is asinine. If there isn’t a live game I don’t even turn on ESPN or the NFL coverage. Their opinion are atrocious and over the top.
- and as much as it’s a team sport - the game has turned into mostly into individuals promoting themselves.
It’s still a fun game and I’ll watch the giants and some big games. But I don’t watch nearly as much as I did 5-10 years ago.
but i don't mind the way the game has changed over the years. One thing I've learned is that if you aren't evolving, you are probably on the decline.
Yeah there is less contact in today's game than in the past and it seems to be evolving towards flag football; but I don't mind. I'll watch older games from the 80s and appreciate it, but at the same time recognize how much more violent it was and that today's rules are somewhat better for player safety.
I wonder how much of us are jaded by a historically bad stretch of Giants football.
One taste of a good season last year - and I found myself getting right back in there (only missing games when they came into conflict with kids sports)
Where I rarely watch a game in real time anymore. “Important” Giants games are the occasional exception —but there have been precious few of those lately. Grateful for DVR which lets me begin at the kickoff, zip through the commercials, halftime, etc.and turn it off at the final gun. Sometimes, while I’m waiting to let the game get ahead of the recording, I can get up, stretch, take care of something around the house, etc. Yes, I’m out of sync with the rest of the world for an hour or so. Big deal. It makes the football watchable.
For obvious reasons (and for the same reason why advertisers like TV ads), consumers are more aware of the TV commercials they're being fed during a live sports broadcast.
Do you think anyone bothers to count how many pages of ads a magazine has now compared to 20 years ago? Does it bother you to flip through a few extra pages on your way to the next article? Or did you stop reading magazines like everyone else?
Does it bother you that there are more billboards inside the stadium than there were 20 years ago or that the name of the venue itself is now an advertisement? Does it even register with you that there are more ads in that context?
What used to be Gate B in Giant Stadium is now Verizon Gate in MetLife Stadium. Even the Giants practice facility has a naming rights sponsor. Does that bother you?
Does it bother you that what was once the Giants Postgame Report is now the W.B. Mason Postgame (or whatever it's called)?
We live in a capitalist society. I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised that merchants are aggressively competing for your disposable income. Should the NFL refuse to bridge that unmet demand?
is there anything more NFL 2024 than Greenlaw rupturing his Achilles tendon running onto the field?
only if it was turf maybe it would be peak 2024, but being a grass field such a high profile non-contact injury doesn't help the grass vs turf debate which is an annoying debate.
the game itself is healthy-ish the problem isnt the changes as much as
the rate of changes accelerating so quickly that it's been hard for the various levels to keep up. the dearth of competent offensive lineman being an example of the downstream effects of a bunch of different things that were out of anyone's control but also made worse by the new CBA and rule changes.
but the NFL as a game when played at a high level like the SB was is still really fun - but i think tom brady is right when he observed that happens a lot less often now.
as a commercial product it is 1 of a kind. as mentioned in the peacock discussions a few weeks back the NFL was something like 96 of the 100 highest rated individual shows of the year. they practically have a monopoly on mass advertising and with sports books now legally core partners everyone can basically just print money.
w/r/t bbi, even in what is a wasted decade of giant football biz looks good even though id argue that just like the giants performance and the nfl rule changes, the quality of discussion over this time interval has gone a little backwards as more long timers have been replaced (which is unavoidable). though it would be nice if there were fewer trolling dupes or a more effective mute button.
For obvious reasons (and for the same reason why advertisers like TV ads), consumers are more aware of the TV commercials they're being fed during a live sports broadcast.
Do you think anyone bothers to count how many pages of ads a magazine has now compared to 20 years ago? Does it bother you to flip through a few extra pages on your way to the next article? Or did you stop reading magazines like everyone else?
Does it bother you that there are more billboards inside the stadium than there were 20 years ago or that the name of the venue itself is now an advertisement? Does it even register with you that there are more ads in that context?
What used to be Gate B in Giant Stadium is now Verizon Gate in MetLife Stadium. Even the Giants practice facility has a naming rights sponsor. Does that bother you?
Does it bother you that what was once the Giants Postgame Report is now the W.B. Mason Postgame (or whatever it's called)?
We live in a capitalist society. I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised that merchants are aggressively competing for your disposable income. Should the NFL refuse to bridge that unmet demand?
No, but there is a balance between game flow and interruption and it's swinging towards interruption. There have been multiple times where a commercial ran long causing a missed play. It also seems that some of the TV timeouts are unnecessary. I'll compare it to soccer which has a shit ton of ads, but not a lot of commercial breaks for obvious reasons. I don't mind that.
With football, you get the same ads plastered around the field with the added bonus of, IMO, an excessive amount of TV timeouts.
But when the first shot of the game winning TD in a SB in OT is to Taylor Swift. To me, that’s pathetic.
they have been doing shots of players families celebrating in stands forever. one of the first shots after plax td in 2008 was peyton in press box. i get that's easier to argue as "football related" but it's the same thing.
Taylor Swift had a grand total of 54 seconds of screen time during a 3.5 hour game. Rather look at her than Jerry Jones and Chris Christie making out after a Cowboys TD.
RE: I was just about to bring up Peyton, good call.
Taylor Swift had a grand total of 54 seconds of screen time during a 3.5 hour game. Rather look at her than Jerry Jones and Chris Christie making out after a Cowboys TD.
yep - or the cast of whatever new show (that will get canceled 6 months later) is coming out on whatever network is broadcasting the game as promotion.
all networks do all the same things and when there are human interest stories like taylor swift, or the manning family, or oj in a white bronco, they show it.
As I noted above I am probably an outlier in my ability to not just ignore the ancillary stuff, but I genuinely am so absent minded I don't even see it really.
I was never a fan of smash mouth football, so I enjoy more offensive and more action. I used to watch a ton of college ball for that reason. Now that the NFL resembles that more, I virtually only watch the NFL. I think the state of the game on the field is incredible. The high water for me as Giants fan was the 2011 season. I am full Team Basketball on Grass.
I think a lot of the negative comments stem at least partly from the Giants being almost unwatchably bad. Ask a Chiefs or Lions fan about how they feel about the game, and you'll get a very different answer than a Giants fan, I'd guess.
I bought the full YouTube Sunday Ticket package this year. With the four game on one screen option and three TVs in my living room 1pm on Sundays usually had 5 games + Red Zone at once. Audio stays on Red Zone so I don't have to listen to any ads. Gambling and fantasy football have improved the experience and been a fortunate replacement for rooting for a terrible team.
The options for watching football have never been better. Now we just need AI to find a way to have Summerall and Madden announce every game until the end of time.
RE: I was just about to bring up Peyton, good call.
Taylor Swift had a grand total of 54 seconds of screen time during a 3.5 hour game. Rather look at her than Jerry Jones and Chris Christie making out after a Cowboys TD.
I personally hadn't watched a full SB game for years but I did this one for whatever reason and the Swift/Kelce factor wasn't it.
As I noted above I am probably an outlier in my ability to not just ignore the ancillary stuff, but I genuinely am so absent minded I don't even see it really.
I was never a fan of smash mouth football, so I enjoy more offensive and more action. I used to watch a ton of college ball for that reason. Now that the NFL resembles that more, I virtually only watch the NFL. I think the state of the game on the field is incredible. The high water for me as Giants fan was the 2011 season. I am full Team Basketball on Grass.
basketball on grass isnt the issue, if anything defense has started to make a comeback. 3 of the final 4 teams were the top 3 in ppg allowed. the chiefs defense was arguably the biggest success driver in their run (also made the biggest play of last year's SB).
half the teams lost their starting qbs to injuries despite basically not even being allowed to get hit (pretty sure it was a record year). they made those rules bc qbs getting injured isn't good for any aspect of the business. there is just a lot of really bad OL play around the league. and the flatness of talent is i think one of the bigger factors in speeding up the firing cycles of coaches, which is i think a macro factor in lower quality football. every regime change leads to some breakage and more regime changes = more breakage. ol happens to be a position group that requires chemistry and cohesion more than others, and teams havent figured out how to improve that in the new world.
proliferation of spread offenses in CFB were just as big of a factor as anything the NFL did, but the combination of less development in CFB and the rules in the new CBA created a worse development environment for some positions (OL). the flip side was a better development environment for QBs/WRs, except if the QB gets hurt bc you cant protect that doesnt matter.
Based on what I've seen on BBI and on social media, diehard fans are watching a lot less pro football than they did 10 years ago. I do. I watch the Giants and maybe one other game (maybe) each weekend. I see people talking about it all of the time here. In addition, the non-Giants gameday threads are a lot less commented on than in the past.
10 years ago, a Monday night thread would be filled with posters and commentary. Not so much anymore.
How much of that is because they've gotten 10 years older?
It's easy to compare your own behavior now to your behavior 10 years ago and observe that you're watching less football now, or watching it with less fervor or devotion than you did 10 years ago. And you can simultaneously observe the environmental factors that may have contributed to that, and assign them the full causality. I think many can relate; I can.
I'd offer as a counter that my brothers, who are 10 and 13 years older than me, also experienced their enthusiasm waning between age 35 and 50. My father, who was 35 years older than me, also experienced his enthusiasm waning between age 35 and 50. Different eras for each, but the same age range for each.
In other words, there may have been factors that nudged you away from the same level of passion that you had 10 years ago, but it also may be (in some part) the fact that it's inevitable that all people will eventually age out of the target demographic for the NFL's commercial productions, and it will feel like the product is changing for the worse. And while that may be objectively true for you (and your perception), neither party is actually static.
Most mainstream products are targeted toward people who are younger than your typical BBI poster. When we were in that targeted age range, the product felt like it fit our lifestyles more appropriately because it was built that way. Now that we're getting older, it's not actually intended for us. But that's been the case for a long time. We just weren't out of the target demo for most of that time.
this is anecdotal but I have 8 nephews, all under 30 yo, seven from NJ and one from Ohio. All are playing of played sports in high school and college. None are even near my level of interest in the NFL at under 30, not even close. They barely know who the Giants or Steelers are playing on a week to week basis. Yes, the all watched the SB I am sure but regular season is very sporadic on their NFl viewing and pretty ho-hum on whether they watch any game.
I’ve become a big pro soccer fan the last couple of
Years and as a pure entertainment offering, it is much superior to the NFL. The commercials are what drag the NFL down. I was watching the glorious Tottenham win on Saturday and thought I could take advantage of a lull in the action to go to the kitchen for literally twenty seconds. Big mistake - I had to rush back in because of an attacking opportunity that had materialized in a flash. With one interruption at the half, it’s an absorbing ninety minutes without a break.
But one thing the NFL really has going for it is the “narrative flow” of the game. Good games build up tension as the final minute approaches. It’s gripping in a way that’s different from other sports. The Super Bowl was the longest game I have ever watched and the gradually developing suspense made it seem short.
Another way to describe it is a “rhythm”. Each sports has a rhythm and suspenseful NFL games are exciting in a very unique way. But the commercials suck.
I think a lot of the negative comments stem at least partly from the Giants being almost unwatchably bad. Ask a Chiefs or Lions fan about how they feel about the game, and you'll get a very different answer than a Giants fan, I'd guess.
I bought the full YouTube Sunday Ticket package this year. With the four game on one screen option and three TVs in my living room 1pm on Sundays usually had 5 games + Red Zone at once. Audio stays on Red Zone so I don't have to listen to any ads. Gambling and fantasy football have improved the experience and been a fortunate replacement for rooting for a terrible team.
The options for watching football have never been better. Now we just need AI to find a way to have Summerall and Madden announce every game until the end of time.
This is exactly what is coming - AI Captioning! Within a year or two, maybe sooner, we will get voice options to dub over the close captioning that streams through the broadcast. And my guess is, we will be able to download (for a fee of course!) the announcers of our choice. In your case, you could have Summerall and Madden dubbing over Romo and Nance on one screen, and Gifford and Cosell dubbing over Buck and Aikman on the other!
I think a lot of the negative comments stem at least partly from the Giants being almost unwatchably bad. Ask a Chiefs or Lions fan about how they feel about the game, and you'll get a very different answer than a Giants fan, I'd guess.
I bought the full YouTube Sunday Ticket package this year. With the four game on one screen option and three TVs in my living room 1pm on Sundays usually had 5 games + Red Zone at once. Audio stays on Red Zone so I don't have to listen to any ads. Gambling and fantasy football have improved the experience and been a fortunate replacement for rooting for a terrible team.
The options for watching football have never been better. Now we just need AI to find a way to have Summerall and Madden announce every game until the end of time.
Haven't you said, often, that the NFL as a product is inferior to the past versions of it, and particularly the broadcasts of the '80s were clearly superior to today?
The game isn't as well played, and the broadcasts generally aren't as good, but the options for viewing are better than ever. NFL games have always been drowned in ads; Red Zone is a great way around that. The Giants suck, but Sunday Ticket provides an option to watch the most compelling games.
There are minor tweaks I'd like to see to the game, but my overall preference is to see the ball moved in the air.
Eighteen of the top 25 seasons with the most passing yards per game have come after the Ty Law rule changes, which I've felt are a welcome addition to the game.
I think smash mouth, defensive struggles are boring. I also don't find any joy watching players get annihilated, so I'm also a fan of the safety protocols that have been implemented.
For those who prefer the game from the 80s, what about that makes it better than today's product? Just curious.
My view is that the the evolution of today's offensive and defensive gameplanning is just incredible compared to the 80s and 90s. Like the corndog play that won the SB where the goal is to hide the motion WR behind another player so the DB shifts his focus away is just next level, IMO.
Fundamentally the tackling sucks into today's game and I think the OL struggles are due to DL being much bigger and athletic than they were a few decades ago. But generally it seems that the game is more atheletic and required a higher IQ than in the past?
As an aside, I remember my grandpa being quite annoyed by John Madden's bing, bang, boom comments and drawing all over the screen. And now most of us who grew up on Madden pine for those days.
this is anecdotal but I have 8 nephews, all under 30 yo, seven from NJ and one from Ohio. All are playing of played sports in high school and college. None are even near my level of interest in the NFL at under 30, not even close. They barely know who the Giants or Steelers are playing on a week to week basis. Yes, the all watched the SB I am sure but regular season is very sporadic on their NFl viewing and pretty ho-hum on whether they watch any game.
I'm not sure what the point is, other than anecdotal evidence taken in small morsels can look very different than empirical evidence taken in the aggregate?
There were kids who played sports but weren't die hard NFL fans 30-40 years ago, too. I was friends with plenty of kids like that back then.
Somehow the NFL's engaged audience isn't shrinking. It may be evolving into a different audience than it used to be, but it's not getting smaller. So you're observing a handful of kids today that have different interests than a handful of different kids did a generation ago. I noticed the same thing about grunge music. Can you believe that there are kids today who play instruments but don't listen to Nirvana or Soundgarden? When I was their age, every kid who played an instrument listened to those bands!
There are dozens of major brands that have seen their core buyer shift in a similar way over the past 30 years. Do you think Apple's core consumer is the same as they were in 1994? How about Amazon? How about FedEx? What about a shopping mall? What about any restaurant that delivers food? Do you think they have the same relationship with their customers now in the food delivery app era that they had even 15 years ago when people ordered from the same handful of places and kept their menus in the junk drawer?
For those who prefer the game from the 80s, what about that makes it better than today's product? Just curious.
My view is that the the evolution of today's offensive and defensive gameplanning is just incredible compared to the 80s and 90s. Like the corndog play that won the SB where the goal is to hide the motion WR behind another player so the DB shifts his focus away is just next level, IMO.
Fundamentally the tackling sucks into today's game and I think the OL struggles are due to DL being much bigger and athletic than they were a few decades ago. But generally it seems that the game is more atheletic and required a higher IQ than in the past?
I think the biggest problem is the attrition on the top teams due to the salary cap. I think it's bad for the game that the Chiefs are forced to trade Tyreek Hill simply because they couldn't afford him; they were penalized for their success in drafting Mahomes, Chris Jones, and Travis Kelce. They won the Super Bowl twice without Hill anyway, but they could have been an even greater team. And now they may lose Jones.
Fundamentally the tackling sucks into today's game and I think the OL struggles are due to DL being much bigger and athletic than they were a few decades ago. But generally it seems that the game is more atheletic and required a higher IQ than in the past?
Absolutely agree here - Oline play across the league absolutely sucks.
Think about what it takes to be an Olinemen in todays game.
Need the body weight and strength to anchor and drive versus the monster DLs of today, and at the same time need the speed, athleticness, footwork to handle the Edge Rushers and Today's linebackers in space.
Who could be possibly built that way?
It is easy to view things only through your own lens
And if you think the game is degraded, and it's not as good anymore, and things like games on other days, and international games and Taylor Swift bug you. It's you. The game keeps getting bigger and more popular. You may not like it, but the NFL can almost do no wrong, they have been great at growing the game, and while you may not like the changes, the game is bigger than ever. I'm having fun with it, but I understand some older hardcore fans don't like it.
this is anecdotal but I have 8 nephews, all under 30 yo, seven from NJ and one from Ohio. All are playing of played sports in high school and college. None are even near my level of interest in the NFL at under 30, not even close. They barely know who the Giants or Steelers are playing on a week to week basis. Yes, the all watched the SB I am sure but regular season is very sporadic on their NFl viewing and pretty ho-hum on whether they watch any game.
I'm not sure what the point is, other than anecdotal evidence taken in small morsels can look very different than empirical evidence taken in the aggregate?
There were kids who played sports but weren't die hard NFL fans 30-40 years ago, too. I was friends with plenty of kids like that back then.
Somehow the NFL's engaged audience isn't shrinking. It may be evolving into a different audience than it used to be, but it's not getting smaller. So you're observing a handful of kids today that have different interests than a handful of different kids did a generation ago. I noticed the same thing about grunge music. Can you believe that there are kids today who play instruments but don't listen to Nirvana or Soundgarden? When I was their age, every kid who played an instrument listened to those bands!
There are dozens of major brands that have seen their core buyer shift in a similar way over the past 30 years. Do you think Apple's core consumer is the same as they were in 1994? How about Amazon? How about FedEx? What about a shopping mall? What about any restaurant that delivers food? Do you think they have the same relationship with their customers now in the food delivery app era that they had even 15 years ago when people ordered from the same handful of places and kept their menus in the junk drawer?
yes, SB was watched and this year had a perfect storm. But seems that the focus on the NFL and die-hard fans aren't coming through the ranks. I wonder how the ratings are in the under 30 demo during the regular season.
Always wished they would simulcast a gameday stadium experience. Nothing but crowd/field noise and the PA announcer. I've never really enjoyed the talking heads and sideline reports. If we can get a Nickelodeon broadcast can't we have this too (and i enjoy the Nick broadcast for a little bit - it really got my 8 year old watching much more intently)
The gameday stadium experience is so much more annoying than listening to TV announcers talk about the game. The PA announcer screams that it is thiiiiiirrrrd down, and yells for all of the people in front of me to stand up. There is near constant loud music playing.
to the ever increasing relevance of gambling to the NFL
and its total, on field and off, commercial branding and promotion, e.g., to Greg’s comment above, while I’m no fan of it, either, it’s not hard to understand how the League and the vig are joined at the hip. For years I’ve wondered how the Manning Clan’s total sell-out to the House does not rub BBIers the wrong way. It does me
The game isn't as well played, and the broadcasts generally aren't as good, but the options for viewing are better than ever. NFL games have always been drowned in ads; Red Zone is a great way around that. The Giants suck, but Sunday Ticket provides an option to watch the most compelling games.
this is anecdotal but I have 8 nephews, all under 30 yo, seven from NJ and one from Ohio. All are playing of played sports in high school and college. None are even near my level of interest in the NFL at under 30, not even close. They barely know who the Giants or Steelers are playing on a week to week basis. Yes, the all watched the SB I am sure but regular season is very sporadic on their NFl viewing and pretty ho-hum on whether they watch any game.
I'm not sure what the point is, other than anecdotal evidence taken in small morsels can look very different than empirical evidence taken in the aggregate?
There were kids who played sports but weren't die hard NFL fans 30-40 years ago, too. I was friends with plenty of kids like that back then.
Somehow the NFL's engaged audience isn't shrinking. It may be evolving into a different audience than it used to be, but it's not getting smaller. So you're observing a handful of kids today that have different interests than a handful of different kids did a generation ago. I noticed the same thing about grunge music. Can you believe that there are kids today who play instruments but don't listen to Nirvana or Soundgarden? When I was their age, every kid who played an instrument listened to those bands!
There are dozens of major brands that have seen their core buyer shift in a similar way over the past 30 years. Do you think Apple's core consumer is the same as they were in 1994? How about Amazon? How about FedEx? What about a shopping mall? What about any restaurant that delivers food? Do you think they have the same relationship with their customers now in the food delivery app era that they had even 15 years ago when people ordered from the same handful of places and kept their menus in the junk drawer?
yes, SB was watched and this year had a perfect storm. But seems that the focus on the NFL and die-hard fans aren't coming through the ranks. I wonder how the ratings are in the under 30 demo during the regular season.
Seems like you're still basing your entire conclusion on your eight nephews.
The definition of what constitutes a "diehard" fan probably merits some discussion. When I was a kid, we had a two games on Sundays, usually just the Giants game and the Jets game, and then Sunday Night Football (on ESPN), and Monday Night Football (on ABC). There was WFAN for daily discussion (there was no satellite radio and there wasn't even a competing all-sports radio station in the NYC market), the local newspapers for daily updates, and then just chatter amongst other fans wherever you found them (friends, family, etc.). We might get an occasional feature or blurb in Sports Illustrated or The Sporting News. We had The Giant Insider print edition.
There was no internet yet, which meant there were no message boards, no social media, no streaming, no NFL Network. There weren't even any competitors to ESPN yet back then, and there were barely any regional sports networks yet. We had Sportschannel, but there was no YES, no MSG, no SNY, no FSN, etc. Being a diehard fan wasn't really all that time consuming in terms of our daily lives.
Now, you have 24/7 access to NFL news and updates. You can find people to discuss the Giants with at any time of the day, any day of the week. You can watch any Giants game from the past, you can watch any NFL game of the present, you can consume multiple games at the same time across various screens. You get email newsletters, social media updates, message board threads, and blog updates. You get podcasts, and radio shows, and you can tune into radio shows for any market in the world.
Being a diehard fan in 2024 is materially different than being a diehard fan was in 1994. We probably remember how much we CARED about the Giants 30-40 years ago, but we weren't consuming the Giants anywhere close to as much as we do now. All of which is to say that there are fans that we would call casual NFL fans nowadays that actually spend more time engaged with the NFL than we did, as the most diehard of the diehards, as recently as a generation ago.
The NFL didn't force all of those changes. The world did. The NFL just kept up with that evolution, IMO. The same goes for almost any other customer affinity for any other brand, product, personality, etc. There is so much more out there to consume. We grew up at a time when we were starved for access to the things we cared about. Now, the kids who represent the modern equivalent of us from then have infinite content at their fingertips, and their challenge is prioritizing that content within their lives.
Being a diehard now isn't the same as it used to be, and it's unrealistic to expect kids who grew up in the internet era to have the same view of what being a diehard fan means. For us, it was a part of our identity because most of our fan experience happened internally or interpersonally. Now it involves interacting with a screen more often than not. It's not the same.
It was fun to go on a Friday night to pick out a movie or video game for the weekend. I could get a box of candy too. I'll feel nostalgic about it. But, as GD says above, the world changing. The internet happened and Blockbuster was stubborn and rigid. Now Blockbuster is out of business.
If you dislike change, you are going to dislike irrelevance even more.
#s are hard to find but fantasy football is a good proxy for diehards
espn alone had 12m fantasy football players in 2023 which was it's biggest year ever and up 10% from 2022.
the total estimate of ff players in 2022 between all platforms was somewhere between 40-50m people and more than double what it was a decade earlier.
idk about anyone else but i know very few people who play ff and dont tune in for 2+ games per week now that there are games on at least 3 different days and twice in prime time.
can growth sustain forever? probably not but it hasnt yet.
In comment 16397815 Eric from BBI said:
[quote] is there anything more NFL 2024 than Greenlaw rupturing his Achilles tendon running onto the field? [/quot
but they had the two best teams playing(sorry Ravens), the Taylor Swift phenomenon and a pretty good game on top.
We can piss and moan about how the NFL conducts business, but they seem to know what they are doing.
Yes and no. They became vocal about subjects they shouldn't have touched and backed off (at least publicly). They've decided to "go Hollywood" (for lack of a better phrase) and it has helped.
But many of the football-related changes and commercialization have made the viewing experience noticeably worse for anyone over 40-50 years old. This gets into the actual quality of play as well as the way the game is presented.
They are seeking a new, bigger audience that is less committed to the product.... the casual fan over the diehard one. It is what it is.
Speak for yourself. I’m 55 and enjoy the product greatly. All year long and not just Giants football.. The negativity and lack of support on this board makes me wonder why a lot of folks here continue to be football fans.
Ultimately, the NFL does what any other business does: Maximize profits.
Can you blame them for wanting to do that?
No but the question is if they are doing it at the risk of losing something long term. Weve yet to see sports take a fall as it gravitated towards more entertainment then a gladiator event in the rise if the ESPN era. But it could be a possibility as I think a large % feel as if its become out of touch. Letting the tik tok crowd take over football is t sustainable if the non tick tock crowd opt out. Their riding a popularity wave versus likeing the gane for what it truly is.
I’ve got my own thoughts on the game itself but I don’t matter to the NFL all that much so I won’t go down that hole. The NFL is expanding and embracing technology better than just about anyone else in sports - the long term effects of that will be that they are ahead of the game. Soccer is the other sport that is put neck and neck with the NFL in terms of embracing tech but that’s a different conversation.
is the same risk most companies face when they focus on the customers they don't have and neglect the ones they do have.
they alienate their fan base.
But the NFL is not Bud Light, and the fan base for pro sports is different than most consumer products so I think that risk is very very minor. There is no "Modelo" to take market share from the NFL, fans option is consume the product or don't. And most will no matter how arrogant or obnoxious the NFL gets.
After that the biggest risk is simply the growth ventures don't pan out. People don't watch on Peacock or Amazon Prime or Munich hates American football. Or the US Government bans ads for gambling, and that just impacts growth which is really what the NFL is focused on (like many businesses).
right now (and since goodell took over for tagliabue) they are milking the product for all they can.
another form of entertainment could get popular,
player safety could become a bigger issue that leads to legislation, or lower participation,
they could lose revenue streams like gambling.
none may seem likely right now but predicting 50 years from now or 100 years from now who knows. and if any of that happens maybe milking for all they can now is the right move anyway.
they’ve been successfully focusing on new fans and it keeps working. 5/10 years ago I laughed at some of their decisions but they keep panning out. And I don’t think anyone is being alienated outside of fringe fans or the older crowd that gets disinterested in things as they age anyway.
The NFL needs to embrace tech, interest the young generation, and figure out how they are expanding to a new continent full time if they are going to continue to grow. They are nailing the first 2 and the last one is TBD - but judging by how long they are taking they seem to be pretty methodical with it and I bet that will pan out too.
outside of normal business risks associated to companies, and contact sports safety issues that will always be there, I don’t see much risk at all in anything the nfl is investing in.
Just wanted to chime in that I think criticism of the TV presentation is a bit overblown - what’s distracting you from watching the action on the field? The score bug with the game and play clock? I find that valuable. The yellow line indicating the first down marker has been a great addition too. A lot of the graphics and other bells and whistles are done during stoppages in play. I hate all the pregame shows so I no longer watch, but if you tune in at 1pm for the game I don’t find the viewing experience to be dramatically different.
they’ve been successfully focusing on new fans and it keeps working. 5/10 years ago I laughed at some of their decisions but they keep panning out. And I don’t think anyone is being alienated outside of fringe fans or the older crowd that gets disinterested in things as they age anyway.
The NFL needs to embrace tech, interest the young generation, and figure out how they are expanding to a new continent full time if they are going to continue to grow. They are nailing the first 2 and the last one is TBD - but judging by how long they are taking they seem to be pretty methodical with it and I bet that will pan out too.
I said the risk is very very small. but you lose the hard core fans and the bond becomes weaker and it takes less for people to find something else to spend their money on.
And I don't think they nailed the younger generations. Data shows in fact younger generations are far less interested in NFL than previous generations (even year to year in the same generation). Maybe the first one (tech) helps, but I doubt technology is the reason people consume the NFL. I think they have to want to watch the games first, then technology can be an enhancer or enabler, but I doubt it's the draw. be interesting to find out though.
Quote:
...The NFL's viewership among youth has indeed been declining in recent years. A 2023 study by the Pew Research Center found that only 15% of 12-to-17-year-olds reported following the NFL, down from 25% in 2016. This decline is likely due to a number of factors, including the rise of other sports and entertainment options, such as video games and streaming services....
I think the numbers are even worse if you look at Gen Z as a whole. Probably even millennials compared to Gen X for example and even boomers.
they’ve been successfully focusing on new fans and it keeps working. 5/10 years ago I laughed at some of their decisions but they keep panning out. And I don’t think anyone is being alienated outside of fringe fans or the older crowd that gets disinterested in things as they age anyway.
The NFL needs to embrace tech, interest the young generation, and figure out how they are expanding to a new continent full time if they are going to continue to grow. They are nailing the first 2 and the last one is TBD - but judging by how long they are taking they seem to be pretty methodical with it and I bet that will pan out too.
I said the risk is very very small. but you lose the hard core fans and the bond becomes weaker and it takes less for people to find something else to spend their money on.
And I don't think they nailed the younger generations. Data shows in fact younger generations are far less interested in NFL than previous generations (even year to year in the same generation). Maybe the first one (tech) helps, but I doubt technology is the reason people consume the NFL. I think they have to want to watch the games first, then technology can be an enhancer or enabler, but I doubt it's the draw. be interesting to find out though.
Quote:
...The NFL's viewership among youth has indeed been declining in recent years. A 2023 study by the Pew Research Center found that only 15% of 12-to-17-year-olds reported following the NFL, down from 25% in 2016. This decline is likely due to a number of factors, including the rise of other sports and entertainment options, such as video games and streaming services....
I think the numbers are even worse if you look at Gen Z as a whole. Probably even millennials compared to Gen X for example and even boomers.
this is my thought too but especially the younger generations that you would expect to have a deeper or more intense interest.
We're we love the game, many who watch the Super Bowl don't really know or care, they watch it because it's a time to be around friends and have a good time. Nothing wrong with that.
Many watch to see the Half-time show, and here's something that may shock many - Some watch to see the COMMERCIALS !
Kind of like, how I am with basketball, except of the Celtics, sometimes. IF I tune in, most of the time I will get up and go do something else for 10-15 minutes, no matter who is playing.
Everybody's different, I've switched channels at half-time the last five Super Bowls because I'm not Rap fan, but I do enjoy seeing the new commercials. "Different strokes for different folks".
outside of normal business risks associated to companies, and contact sports safety issues that will always be there, I don’t see much risk at all in anything the nfl is investing in.
the only thing id point to that would be considered as marginally elevated risk is their willingness to be greedy at all times. some b2c companies that want to last forever bend over backwards for brand loyalty. nfl bends their fans over backwards.
Earnest question to the group, what are some discreet things you wish had not changed and from what era?
beyond what's already been mentioned from the era post tagliabue this may not qualify as 'discreet' but just like .1% less greed. if someone buys sunday ticket, throw in red zone. and preseason games. they are making enough money they could throw fans a few bones instead of acting like spirit airlines.
dont mind the 3 day draft but i wish they'd keep it more about the football/players less of the concert/sideshow.
and this is just utopia, I can deal with all the changes. Nothing bothers me enough about the NFL to care more than to take note/complain, I wasn't including myself in the group bothered by the current state.
1. No Thursday night football. I don't mind an annual MNF game or two if your team is a contender and popular draw, but I can't stand TNF and when being honest coaches and teams hate it too. even playing prime time. Coaches like routine and consistency. and the more "off schedule" games the harder it is to get into that routine. and TNF is basically just a money grab. My preference is for all games to be Sunday at 1 with the occasional 4
2. This is a hard one and not really due to any specific change but just an obvious (seeming) degradation in quality, but consistent officiating and simpler rules. When it takes 4 to 5 minutes to review if a play is a catch and then the "experts" get it wrong half the time too. and the game changing calls and non-calls do impact the game.
3. 66 quarterbacks started games in 2023. Not all were due to injury, some were due to poor play by the starter, but a lot were due to injury. The rules to protect QB's aren't working. Football is a violent game and the ridiculous rules about protecting a QB get "over-called" and impact the game negatively. go back to the days where QB's are treated like other players. I doubt the injuries are worse than what we currently see.
4. If you're going to legislate kick-offs out of the game. Get them out of the game or allow the option to not kick. The sequence of commercial break, kick-off out of the end zone, commercial break, offense starts series is the kind of thing baseball would eliminate in their efforts to speed the game up, football should too. If you as the kicking team intend to kick it out of the end zone, give the kicking the team the option to just not kick it. and avoid the 5 minutes+ of commercials and designate it so the offense just starts at the 25. I view this like an intentional walk in baseball where you no longer need to throw the pitches.
5. Fewer defensive penalties should be automatic 1st downs if the penalty yardage wouldn't result in a 1st down (like defensive holding). Why is that an automatic 1st down on 3rd and 15. It's a 5 yard penalty why not just make it 3rd and 10 if the play is incomplete. or make it even. Offensive holding is 10 yards, why not just make defensive holding 10 yards and if it's not a 1st down instead of 3rd and 15 it's 3rd and 5.
I am sure I have more and some have been mentioned by others, and again a lot of this is just things I'd change not things related to recent changes. I love a lot of the new things.
I like the gambling, lol, fantasy football, red zone, sunday ticket, I have Amazon Prime so that broadcast media games don't bother me, I like the challenges in general since you want to get game altering plays officiated correctly but half the time it seems like it's still controversial (per my inconsistent officiating comment), and more of the last decade or whatever changes.
I agree with the quarterback protection rules. I think the regular protections that apply to the other players sufficiently now protect the quarterback.
I'm curious about replay in the context of the past. Was there a time when fans liked it?
I agree with the quarterback protection rules. I think the regular protections that apply to the other players sufficiently now protect the quarterback.
I'm curious about replay in the context of the past. Was there a time when fans liked it?
Not sure how others feel, but I'm torn. I want the calls to be right, obviously, but I also feel like a: after lengthy reviews it's still sometimes seems like they get it wrong and b: the delays hurt the flow of the game.
this is an area I think technology can help. Like the British fan in his review of the championship games noted- how are things like placement of the football and breaking the plane of the goal line, not managed by technology at this point.
In hockey I feel like review is killing the game in some areas (irrelevant off sides, interpreting goalie interference, intending to blow a whistle, etc.) - at some level if you can be sure the refs are not compromised I'm prepared to accept it's a game played by humans refereed by humans - they call it to the best of their ability and you live with the results.
In some areas I feel like I would adopt that mindset for football too. Unless you can ensure replay is fast and accurate.
Earnest question to the group, what are some discreet things you wish had not changed and from what era?
The Super Bowl intros of each team. When players were announced individually that was a real, genuine moment in their lives that really came across on TV. Now we get these canned, overproduced pieces that are written by the networks. I know I'm in the minority but I thought the "Resiliency" thing in 2007 was so corny.
The look on Hostetler's face before he came out of the tunnel on his own in 1990: that is real.
Earnest question to the group, what are some discreet things you wish had not changed and from what era?
The Super Bowl intros of each team. When players were announced individually that was a real, genuine moment in their lives that really came across on TV. Now we get these canned, overproduced pieces that are written by the networks. I know I'm in the minority but I thought the "Resiliency" thing in 2007 was so corny.
The look on Hostetler's face before he came out of the tunnel on his own in 1990: that is real.
that whole approach got ended when the 2001 Patriots refused individual intros and were simply introduced and ran out of the tunnel as a team.
I think (though not 100% sure) that's the first time that was done at a Super Bowl.
The fact that the rules can’t be implemented well across a wide group of officials isn’t proof that we need officials, it’s that the rules have to be redesigned.
Earnest question to the group, what are some discreet things you wish had not changed and from what era?
The Super Bowl intros of each team. When players were announced individually that was a real, genuine moment in their lives that really came across on TV. Now we get these canned, overproduced pieces that are written by the networks. I know I'm in the minority but I thought the "Resiliency" thing in 2007 was so corny.
The look on Hostetler's face before he came out of the tunnel on his own in 1990: that is real.
that whole approach got ended when the 2001 Patriots refused individual intros and were simply introduced and ran out of the tunnel as a team.
I think (though not 100% sure) that's the first time that was done at a Super Bowl.
How can you go back to individuals now?
I don't see why you couldn't, but I'm sure it's not even a consideration. The canned stuff makes me cringe. The one this past Sunday was so lame; Tony Gonzalez screaming in front of a green screen like it's a comic book movie.
I could just picture in 2008: "Ok Eli we need you to run through it again, but look at camera 2 this time when you say 'Resiliency'." Ugh. Might as well be a GEICO ad.
Earnest question to the group, what are some discreet things you wish had not changed and from what era?
The Super Bowl intros of each team. When players were announced individually that was a real, genuine moment in their lives that really came across on TV. Now we get these canned, overproduced pieces that are written by the networks. I know I'm in the minority but I thought the "Resiliency" thing in 2007 was so corny.
The look on Hostetler's face before he came out of the tunnel on his own in 1990: that is real.
that whole approach got ended when the 2001 Patriots refused individual intros and were simply introduced and ran out of the tunnel as a team.
I think (though not 100% sure) that's the first time that was done at a Super Bowl.
How can you go back to individuals now?
I don't see why you couldn't, but I'm sure it's not even a consideration. The canned stuff makes me cringe. The one this past Sunday was so lame; Tony Gonzalez screaming in front of a green screen like it's a comic book movie.
I could just picture in 2008: "Ok Eli we need you to run through it again, but look at camera 2 this time when you say 'Resiliency'." Ugh. Might as well be a GEICO ad.
Agree, elements of the super bowl seem manufactured and plastic.
The Super Bowl has turned into a Las Vegas/Disney circus
which I don't care for, but it's for the entire world which has mostly casual fans. Really started in the 90s mainly through the funny commercials. It's actually the only time I watch commercials. Also, adding fantasy football which I cannot stand. I want to watch the games as a pure fan and not be tugged in the wrong direction like hoping a WR scores a TD against the Giants, but the Giants still win.
I moved away from NY in 1979, so I've was unable to watch most of the NYG games until the later 80's when bars began getting all the games on direcTV, but you had to get there early and make sure your game got on a TV you could see and usually with no sound because they would be playing the home team over their speaker system. And many times they had trouble or were limited on the games they could show and you wouldn't be able to get the game until midway the first quarter. It sucked! Then in 2010 I was able to get direcTV and could watch the games live--unless it snowed or rained hard and screwed the reception. Finally, I got the NFL package off the internet about 5 years ago, so I can watch every game in comfort of my home.
Nowadays, I watch the NYG on delay--a couple hours after it finished. Usually, the full commercial-less version, unless I heard they got killed, then I watch the condensed one when I can handle it. I also, watch many of the other games condensed version, sometimes just the second half or 4th quarter.
I have felt a lot this year “core fans” losing wnthusiasm for this whole thing, including myself tbh. It just feels like the whole event is getting a bit out of control and less appealing to footballfans. I felt the actual game was incredible though and awesome to see hard hitting again for first tine natve all year.
As a fan, do you really care? If so, why?
Many more people this year were interested in watching.
It was a bit of a perfect storm -- KC is a dynasty, Mahomes and Kelce are celebrities, Taylor Swift is the biggest entertainer in the world.
The NFL used to not play on Sunday night due to the World Series, imagine that? Now they put a huge marquee SNF game against the World Series and triple the rating.
I have felt a lot this year “core fans” losing wnthusiasm for this whole thing, including myself tbh. It just feels like the whole event is getting a bit out of control and less appealing to football fans. I felt the actual game was incredible though and awesome to see hard hitting again for first tine natve all year.
The NFL used to not play on Sunday night due to the World Series, imagine that? Now they put a huge marquee SNF game against the World Series and triple the rating.
Yup, the NFL is quite literally becoming the only live content anyone gives a shit about.
This will most certainly impact the broadcast and cost model for fans.
As a fan, do you really care? If so, why?
It may “feel” this way but this is not true. There was actually a 4 year decline in viewership. So it great news for the NFL.
It just feels like the whole event is getting a bit out of control and less appealing to football fans.
Agree 100%
The whole "show" has gotten out of control. If feels like the game is now the halftime performance vs the focus.
Regarding the numbers, remember to also dive into what countries the views are coming from and where the increases are. I know the NFL has marketed to other countries. I would be more interested in what the US only views look like over time.
As fans, or maybe some will say old get off my lawn fans, this type of result is not good for the fans. it will only encourage more of this behavior and not grow the game in good ways but instead pull it in more directions that are irrelevant to the core fans.
I hope the NFL has an Icarus event, but it would need to be disastrous to be analogous and I don't think it's possible at this point.
This probably hits closer to the truth than many realize. It explains much, both from their actions and responses.
But this encompasses a lot of ground... teams making the in-person, game-day experience out of the financial range of the middle class, the internationalization of the game, the shift away from the football junkie to those looking for a selfie to post on the social media account, the merging of the game with the celebrities, the constant tweaking of the rules to promote offense, etc.
For better or worse, the entire experience will soon be completely different. Look at the Draft as just one example.
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I think the definition of core fan is probably changing.
... the shift away from the football junkie to those looking for a selfie to post on the social media account, the merging of the game with the celebrities, the constant tweaking of the rules to promote offense, etc.
NFL Network is a great example of this. I had such high hopes. It started out great and then quickly became an MTV type network that dabbles in football.
We can piss and moan about how the NFL conducts business, but they seem to know what they are doing.
We can piss and moan about how the NFL conducts business, but they seem to know what they are doing.
Yes and no. They became vocal about subjects they shouldn't have touched and backed off (at least publicly). They've decided to "go Hollywood" (for lack of a better phrase) and it has helped.
But many of the football-related changes and commercialization have made the viewing experience noticeably worse for anyone over 40-50 years old. This gets into the actual quality of play as well as the way the game is presented.
They are seeking a new, bigger audience that is less committed to the product.... the casual fan over the diehard one. It is what it is.
Slight tangent, but the NFL has an absolute dynamite product for junkies. NFL+ Premium is a total goldmine.
Cued up to talk on the future of live sports and the media - ( New Window )
Slight tangent, but the NFL has an absolute dynamite product for junkies. NFL+ Premium is a total goldmine.
Based on what I've seen on BBI and on social media, diehard fans are watching a lot less pro football than they did 10 years ago. I do. I watch the Giants and maybe one other game (maybe) each weekend. I see people talking about it all of the time here. In addition, the non-Giants gameday threads are a lot less commented on than in the past.
10 years ago, a Monday night thread would be filled with posters and commentary. Not so much anymore.
Fans have gotten a lot dumber about the game. Madden and Summerall used to praise how smart Giants fans were about football. Have you read comments from Giants fans on Twitter? It's like they've been eating paint chips.
lead based paint chips
Slight tangent, but the NFL has an absolute dynamite product for junkies. NFL+ Premium is a total goldmine.
Based on what I've seen on BBI and on social media, diehard fans are watching a lot less pro football than they did 10 years ago. I do. I watch the Giants and maybe one other game (maybe) each weekend. I see people talking about it all of the time here. In addition, the non-Giants gameday threads are a lot less commented on than in the past.
10 years ago, a Monday night thread would be filled with posters and commentary. Not so much anymore.
I wonder if some of that has to do with where Giants fans gravitate for online discussion today vs. 10 years ago.
With all due respect to BBI, which is my go-to, a lot of fans spend their time and keystrokes discussing the game in short bursts on Twitter and Instagram, and not long form discussion boards.
I do agree there is probably centralization of fans to fewer games outside of their core team. But the NFL is doing magic then attracting new core viewers, because their rating are fantastic.
My college aged daughter emailed me after the SB to ask if I won my big SB square pool and told me she was a Kelce anytime TD away from hitting her 9-leg parlay.
WTF? She could not have been any less interested in football growing up, but now she has a draft kings account and bets $2 parlays to win whatever thousands.
and it's becoming rampant and will only expand. I do think it impacts viewership in ways that people may not have totally expected. Possibly in a big way.
Kelce gets down on one knee - ( New Window )
I can tell you 2nd hand the NFL doesn't underestimate it at all. It's their number one strategic acquisition channel. They couple fantasy + gambling in the same bucket.
They believe fans will come for the gambling and stay for the football.
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but they had the two best teams playing(sorry Ravens), the Taylor Swift phenomenon and a pretty good game on top.
We can piss and moan about how the NFL conducts business, but they seem to know what they are doing.
Yes and no. They became vocal about subjects they shouldn't have touched and backed off (at least publicly). They've decided to "go Hollywood" (for lack of a better phrase) and it has helped.
But many of the football-related changes and commercialization have made the viewing experience noticeably worse for anyone over 40-50 years old. This gets into the actual quality of play as well as the way the game is presented.
They are seeking a new, bigger audience that is less committed to the product.... the casual fan over the diehard one. It is what it is.
I didn't say it was better from a NFL fan perspective. I meant from the money making POV.
Yes, we old time NFL fans dislike the restrictions in place, many in the name of player safety. I do not like the streaming aspect, but it makes them money. Not a fan of TNF, but still tune in. Not sure about games in Europe.
I should have qualified or made my point clearer.
For better or worse, the entire experience will soon be completely different. Look at the Draft as just one example.
Exactly true, at least for me. The NFL I grew up with was all about the game, plain and simple. I watch a lot of old games from the '70s and '80s on YouTube because I find them to be superior football broadcasts, in most ways, to what we see today. I don't care about celebrity culture, or fantasy football, and I don't gamble. None of that interests me in the slightest, but it's all what the NFL focuses on today. I find it repellent.
Yes, I still watch the Giants, and I still (mostly) watch the playoffs. But my viewing of other teams continues to dwindle.
10 years ago, a Monday night thread would be filled with posters and commentary. Not so much anymore.
How much of that is because they've gotten 10 years older?
It's easy to compare your own behavior now to your behavior 10 years ago and observe that you're watching less football now, or watching it with less fervor or devotion than you did 10 years ago. And you can simultaneously observe the environmental factors that may have contributed to that, and assign them the full causality. I think many can relate; I can.
I'd offer as a counter that my brothers, who are 10 and 13 years older than me, also experienced their enthusiasm waning between age 35 and 50. My father, who was 35 years older than me, also experienced his enthusiasm waning between age 35 and 50. Different eras for each, but the same age range for each.
In other words, there may have been factors that nudged you away from the same level of passion that you had 10 years ago, but it also may be (in some part) the fact that it's inevitable that all people will eventually age out of the target demographic for the NFL's commercial productions, and it will feel like the product is changing for the worse. And while that may be objectively true for you (and your perception), neither party is actually static.
Most mainstream products are targeted toward people who are younger than your typical BBI poster. When we were in that targeted age range, the product felt like it fit our lifestyles more appropriately because it was built that way. Now that we're getting older, it's not actually intended for us. But that's been the case for a long time. We just weren't out of the target demo for most of that time.
So now I watch the games at home with the sound basically off because I don't need someone who knows less about football than me talking over the game.
I also don't watch the pre/post game coverage. I didn't even know the NFL was doing so much co-marketing with the gambling and gaming industry until I had some professional interests in it.
So for me the presentation of the game is very much the same it was 20 years ago. I totally get I'm not the average viewer though.
And the Red Zone, if your team is not playing, still gets it right. That is a well produced football lovers dream of a broadcast. Charge $10 more per season and have those guys produce a highlight show and I would be all in.
Wondering what the US numbers would look like without fantasy football.
So now I watch the games at home with the sound basically off because I don't need someone who knows less about football than me talking over the game.
I also don't watch the pre/post game coverage. I didn't even know the NFL was doing so much co-marketing with the gambling and gaming industry until I had some professional interests in it.
So for me the presentation of the game is very much the same it was 20 years ago. I totally get I'm not the average viewer though.
Always wished they would simulcast a gameday stadium experience. Nothing but crowd/field noise and the PA announcer. I've never really enjoyed the talking heads and sideline reports. If we can get a Nickelodeon broadcast can't we have this too (and i enjoy the Nick broadcast for a little bit - it really got my 8 year old watching much more intently)
On the flip side, this could go bad. What happens if Kelce is an a-hole. What if he cheats on her, is mean to her and it all comes out? It would be a PR nightmare for the entire league.
My college aged daughter emailed me after the SB to ask if I won my big SB square pool and told me she was a Kelce anytime TD away from hitting her 9-leg parlay.
WTF? She could not have been any less interested in football growing up, but now she has a draft kings account and bets $2 parlays to win whatever thousands.
and it's becoming rampant and will only expand. I do think it impacts viewership in ways that people may not have totally expected. Possibly in a big way.
The decision by the NFL and the networks to shamelessly promote this vice all simply because of greed is going to have a harmful impact on the socio-economic status of millions for generations.
It's really quite appalling, especially given the popularity of the sport with young people.
I think the whole thing is a PR stunt and they will break up this Summer. A well executed PR stunt
But the game isn't as good. From a view perspective, the commercial breaks are longer and there are more of them. They are legislating away special teams and defense. Fundamentals are at an all-time low. Non-contact injuries are up. When the winning TD is scored in the championship game, I have to listen to Romo babble while getting shots of celebrities in the stands.
Put on Super Bowl XXI, XXV. Hell, put on Super Bowl XLII. Tell me there isn't a difference.
I turned off the pre-game shows decades ago. That wasn't because I was getting older. The Draft has gotten ridiculous.
This is who the NFL is catering to now....
Narcissists and #GROCERIES - ( New Window )
My son's reaction?
"I don't like how there is nothing on the screen except for the game."
They've conditioned people to like all the junk on the screen.
But the game isn't as good. From a view perspective, the commercial breaks are longer and there are more of them. They are legislating away special teams and defense. Fundamentals are at an all-time low. Non-contact injuries are up. When the winning TD is scored in the championship game, I have to listen to Romo babble while getting shots of celebrities in the stands.
Put on Super Bowl XXI, XXV. Hell, put on Super Bowl XLII. Tell me there isn't a difference.
I turned off the pre-game shows decades ago. That wasn't because I was getting older. The Draft has gotten ridiculous.
This is who the NFL is catering to now.... Narcissists and #GROCERIES - ( New Window )
I don't disagree with any of that. I just think that's more reflective of the world we live in than it is a reflection of the NFL's evolution or their unquenched thirst for incremental commercialization.
For example, there isn't any appointment TV anymore besides live sports, so the demand for those ad units far outpaces the supply (so logic dictates that the supply should increase). We now see more commercials during NFL games and it feels like a change for the worse. But most people are streaming more content now, and are probably viewing fewer commercials in general (across all TV shows they consume), but much more of them are during NFL content.
That's just one scenario where, in a vacuum, the NFL product is getting worse to many of us, and getting saturated with non-football elements. But some of that is a response to its place in the overall media consumption landscape.
- I rarely watch any night games anymore. They go on far too long and don’t even get me started with the abomination of TNF.
- there is way too much football in if you include college. There’s some type of game on every day of the week. Football use to be mostly two days a week: college on Saturday and NFL on Sunday.
- the play is so poor and it takes way too long.
- the amount of coverage of is asinine. If there isn’t a live game I don’t even turn on ESPN or the NFL coverage. Their opinion are atrocious and over the top.
- and as much as it’s a team sport - the game has turned into mostly into individuals promoting themselves.
It’s still a fun game and I’ll watch the giants and some big games. But I don’t watch nearly as much as I did 5-10 years ago.
Yeah there is less contact in today's game than in the past and it seems to be evolving towards flag football; but I don't mind. I'll watch older games from the 80s and appreciate it, but at the same time recognize how much more violent it was and that today's rules are somewhat better for player safety.
Commericals are annoying as shit tho.
One taste of a good season last year - and I found myself getting right back in there (only missing games when they came into conflict with kids sports)
For obvious reasons (and for the same reason why advertisers like TV ads), consumers are more aware of the TV commercials they're being fed during a live sports broadcast.
Do you think anyone bothers to count how many pages of ads a magazine has now compared to 20 years ago? Does it bother you to flip through a few extra pages on your way to the next article? Or did you stop reading magazines like everyone else?
Does it bother you that there are more billboards inside the stadium than there were 20 years ago or that the name of the venue itself is now an advertisement? Does it even register with you that there are more ads in that context?
What used to be Gate B in Giant Stadium is now Verizon Gate in MetLife Stadium. Even the Giants practice facility has a naming rights sponsor. Does that bother you?
Does it bother you that what was once the Giants Postgame Report is now the W.B. Mason Postgame (or whatever it's called)?
We live in a capitalist society. I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised that merchants are aggressively competing for your disposable income. Should the NFL refuse to bridge that unmet demand?
only if it was turf maybe it would be peak 2024, but being a grass field such a high profile non-contact injury doesn't help the grass vs turf debate which is an annoying debate.
but the NFL as a game when played at a high level like the SB was is still really fun - but i think tom brady is right when he observed that happens a lot less often now.
as a commercial product it is 1 of a kind. as mentioned in the peacock discussions a few weeks back the NFL was something like 96 of the 100 highest rated individual shows of the year. they practically have a monopoly on mass advertising and with sports books now legally core partners everyone can basically just print money.
w/r/t bbi, even in what is a wasted decade of giant football biz looks good even though id argue that just like the giants performance and the nfl rule changes, the quality of discussion over this time interval has gone a little backwards as more long timers have been replaced (which is unavoidable). though it would be nice if there were fewer trolling dupes or a more effective mute button.
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Commericals are annoying as shit tho.
For obvious reasons (and for the same reason why advertisers like TV ads), consumers are more aware of the TV commercials they're being fed during a live sports broadcast.
Do you think anyone bothers to count how many pages of ads a magazine has now compared to 20 years ago? Does it bother you to flip through a few extra pages on your way to the next article? Or did you stop reading magazines like everyone else?
Does it bother you that there are more billboards inside the stadium than there were 20 years ago or that the name of the venue itself is now an advertisement? Does it even register with you that there are more ads in that context?
What used to be Gate B in Giant Stadium is now Verizon Gate in MetLife Stadium. Even the Giants practice facility has a naming rights sponsor. Does that bother you?
Does it bother you that what was once the Giants Postgame Report is now the W.B. Mason Postgame (or whatever it's called)?
We live in a capitalist society. I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised that merchants are aggressively competing for your disposable income. Should the NFL refuse to bridge that unmet demand?
No, but there is a balance between game flow and interruption and it's swinging towards interruption. There have been multiple times where a commercial ran long causing a missed play. It also seems that some of the TV timeouts are unnecessary. I'll compare it to soccer which has a shit ton of ads, but not a lot of commercial breaks for obvious reasons. I don't mind that.
With football, you get the same ads plastered around the field with the added bonus of, IMO, an excessive amount of TV timeouts.
But when the first shot of the game winning TD in a SB in OT is to Taylor Swift. To me, that’s pathetic.
But when the first shot of the game winning TD in a SB in OT is to Taylor Swift. To me, that’s pathetic.
they have been doing shots of players families celebrating in stands forever. one of the first shots after plax td in 2008 was peyton in press box. i get that's easier to argue as "football related" but it's the same thing.
yep - or the cast of whatever new show (that will get canceled 6 months later) is coming out on whatever network is broadcasting the game as promotion.
all networks do all the same things and when there are human interest stories like taylor swift, or the manning family, or oj in a white bronco, they show it.
I was never a fan of smash mouth football, so I enjoy more offensive and more action. I used to watch a ton of college ball for that reason. Now that the NFL resembles that more, I virtually only watch the NFL. I think the state of the game on the field is incredible. The high water for me as Giants fan was the 2011 season. I am full Team Basketball on Grass.
I bought the full YouTube Sunday Ticket package this year. With the four game on one screen option and three TVs in my living room 1pm on Sundays usually had 5 games + Red Zone at once. Audio stays on Red Zone so I don't have to listen to any ads. Gambling and fantasy football have improved the experience and been a fortunate replacement for rooting for a terrible team.
The options for watching football have never been better. Now we just need AI to find a way to have Summerall and Madden announce every game until the end of time.
I personally hadn't watched a full SB game for years but I did this one for whatever reason and the Swift/Kelce factor wasn't it.
I was never a fan of smash mouth football, so I enjoy more offensive and more action. I used to watch a ton of college ball for that reason. Now that the NFL resembles that more, I virtually only watch the NFL. I think the state of the game on the field is incredible. The high water for me as Giants fan was the 2011 season. I am full Team Basketball on Grass.
basketball on grass isnt the issue, if anything defense has started to make a comeback. 3 of the final 4 teams were the top 3 in ppg allowed. the chiefs defense was arguably the biggest success driver in their run (also made the biggest play of last year's SB).
half the teams lost their starting qbs to injuries despite basically not even being allowed to get hit (pretty sure it was a record year). they made those rules bc qbs getting injured isn't good for any aspect of the business. there is just a lot of really bad OL play around the league. and the flatness of talent is i think one of the bigger factors in speeding up the firing cycles of coaches, which is i think a macro factor in lower quality football. every regime change leads to some breakage and more regime changes = more breakage. ol happens to be a position group that requires chemistry and cohesion more than others, and teams havent figured out how to improve that in the new world.
proliferation of spread offenses in CFB were just as big of a factor as anything the NFL did, but the combination of less development in CFB and the rules in the new CBA created a worse development environment for some positions (OL). the flip side was a better development environment for QBs/WRs, except if the QB gets hurt bc you cant protect that doesnt matter.
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Based on what I've seen on BBI and on social media, diehard fans are watching a lot less pro football than they did 10 years ago. I do. I watch the Giants and maybe one other game (maybe) each weekend. I see people talking about it all of the time here. In addition, the non-Giants gameday threads are a lot less commented on than in the past.
10 years ago, a Monday night thread would be filled with posters and commentary. Not so much anymore.
How much of that is because they've gotten 10 years older?
It's easy to compare your own behavior now to your behavior 10 years ago and observe that you're watching less football now, or watching it with less fervor or devotion than you did 10 years ago. And you can simultaneously observe the environmental factors that may have contributed to that, and assign them the full causality. I think many can relate; I can.
I'd offer as a counter that my brothers, who are 10 and 13 years older than me, also experienced their enthusiasm waning between age 35 and 50. My father, who was 35 years older than me, also experienced his enthusiasm waning between age 35 and 50. Different eras for each, but the same age range for each.
In other words, there may have been factors that nudged you away from the same level of passion that you had 10 years ago, but it also may be (in some part) the fact that it's inevitable that all people will eventually age out of the target demographic for the NFL's commercial productions, and it will feel like the product is changing for the worse. And while that may be objectively true for you (and your perception), neither party is actually static.
Most mainstream products are targeted toward people who are younger than your typical BBI poster. When we were in that targeted age range, the product felt like it fit our lifestyles more appropriately because it was built that way. Now that we're getting older, it's not actually intended for us. But that's been the case for a long time. We just weren't out of the target demo for most of that time.
But one thing the NFL really has going for it is the “narrative flow” of the game. Good games build up tension as the final minute approaches. It’s gripping in a way that’s different from other sports. The Super Bowl was the longest game I have ever watched and the gradually developing suspense made it seem short.
Another way to describe it is a “rhythm”. Each sports has a rhythm and suspenseful NFL games are exciting in a very unique way. But the commercials suck.
I bought the full YouTube Sunday Ticket package this year. With the four game on one screen option and three TVs in my living room 1pm on Sundays usually had 5 games + Red Zone at once. Audio stays on Red Zone so I don't have to listen to any ads. Gambling and fantasy football have improved the experience and been a fortunate replacement for rooting for a terrible team.
The options for watching football have never been better. Now we just need AI to find a way to have Summerall and Madden announce every game until the end of time.
This is exactly what is coming - AI Captioning! Within a year or two, maybe sooner, we will get voice options to dub over the close captioning that streams through the broadcast. And my guess is, we will be able to download (for a fee of course!) the announcers of our choice. In your case, you could have Summerall and Madden dubbing over Romo and Nance on one screen, and Gifford and Cosell dubbing over Buck and Aikman on the other!
I bought the full YouTube Sunday Ticket package this year. With the four game on one screen option and three TVs in my living room 1pm on Sundays usually had 5 games + Red Zone at once. Audio stays on Red Zone so I don't have to listen to any ads. Gambling and fantasy football have improved the experience and been a fortunate replacement for rooting for a terrible team.
The options for watching football have never been better. Now we just need AI to find a way to have Summerall and Madden announce every game until the end of time.
Haven't you said, often, that the NFL as a product is inferior to the past versions of it, and particularly the broadcasts of the '80s were clearly superior to today?
Can you blame them for wanting to do that?
Eighteen of the top 25 seasons with the most passing yards per game have come after the Ty Law rule changes, which I've felt are a welcome addition to the game.
I think smash mouth, defensive struggles are boring. I also don't find any joy watching players get annihilated, so I'm also a fan of the safety protocols that have been implemented.
My view is that the the evolution of today's offensive and defensive gameplanning is just incredible compared to the 80s and 90s. Like the corndog play that won the SB where the goal is to hide the motion WR behind another player so the DB shifts his focus away is just next level, IMO.
Fundamentally the tackling sucks into today's game and I think the OL struggles are due to DL being much bigger and athletic than they were a few decades ago. But generally it seems that the game is more atheletic and required a higher IQ than in the past?
I'm not sure what the point is, other than anecdotal evidence taken in small morsels can look very different than empirical evidence taken in the aggregate?
There were kids who played sports but weren't die hard NFL fans 30-40 years ago, too. I was friends with plenty of kids like that back then.
Somehow the NFL's engaged audience isn't shrinking. It may be evolving into a different audience than it used to be, but it's not getting smaller. So you're observing a handful of kids today that have different interests than a handful of different kids did a generation ago. I noticed the same thing about grunge music. Can you believe that there are kids today who play instruments but don't listen to Nirvana or Soundgarden? When I was their age, every kid who played an instrument listened to those bands!
There are dozens of major brands that have seen their core buyer shift in a similar way over the past 30 years. Do you think Apple's core consumer is the same as they were in 1994? How about Amazon? How about FedEx? What about a shopping mall? What about any restaurant that delivers food? Do you think they have the same relationship with their customers now in the food delivery app era that they had even 15 years ago when people ordered from the same handful of places and kept their menus in the junk drawer?
My view is that the the evolution of today's offensive and defensive gameplanning is just incredible compared to the 80s and 90s. Like the corndog play that won the SB where the goal is to hide the motion WR behind another player so the DB shifts his focus away is just next level, IMO.
Fundamentally the tackling sucks into today's game and I think the OL struggles are due to DL being much bigger and athletic than they were a few decades ago. But generally it seems that the game is more atheletic and required a higher IQ than in the past?
I think the biggest problem is the attrition on the top teams due to the salary cap. I think it's bad for the game that the Chiefs are forced to trade Tyreek Hill simply because they couldn't afford him; they were penalized for their success in drafting Mahomes, Chris Jones, and Travis Kelce. They won the Super Bowl twice without Hill anyway, but they could have been an even greater team. And now they may lose Jones.
I'd like to see less parity.
Absolutely agree here - Oline play across the league absolutely sucks.
Think about what it takes to be an Olinemen in todays game.
Need the body weight and strength to anchor and drive versus the monster DLs of today, and at the same time need the speed, athleticness, footwork to handle the Edge Rushers and Today's linebackers in space.
Who could be possibly built that way?
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this is anecdotal but I have 8 nephews, all under 30 yo, seven from NJ and one from Ohio. All are playing of played sports in high school and college. None are even near my level of interest in the NFL at under 30, not even close. They barely know who the Giants or Steelers are playing on a week to week basis. Yes, the all watched the SB I am sure but regular season is very sporadic on their NFl viewing and pretty ho-hum on whether they watch any game.
I'm not sure what the point is, other than anecdotal evidence taken in small morsels can look very different than empirical evidence taken in the aggregate?
There were kids who played sports but weren't die hard NFL fans 30-40 years ago, too. I was friends with plenty of kids like that back then.
Somehow the NFL's engaged audience isn't shrinking. It may be evolving into a different audience than it used to be, but it's not getting smaller. So you're observing a handful of kids today that have different interests than a handful of different kids did a generation ago. I noticed the same thing about grunge music. Can you believe that there are kids today who play instruments but don't listen to Nirvana or Soundgarden? When I was their age, every kid who played an instrument listened to those bands!
There are dozens of major brands that have seen their core buyer shift in a similar way over the past 30 years. Do you think Apple's core consumer is the same as they were in 1994? How about Amazon? How about FedEx? What about a shopping mall? What about any restaurant that delivers food? Do you think they have the same relationship with their customers now in the food delivery app era that they had even 15 years ago when people ordered from the same handful of places and kept their menus in the junk drawer?
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Always wished they would simulcast a gameday stadium experience. Nothing but crowd/field noise and the PA announcer. I've never really enjoyed the talking heads and sideline reports. If we can get a Nickelodeon broadcast can't we have this too (and i enjoy the Nick broadcast for a little bit - it really got my 8 year old watching much more intently)
The NFL has become, more or less, what Arenaball was. Some of you like that. I don't. I liked power football and great defense.
I can't stress enough that it's important to watch something other than the Giants.
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In comment 16397974 SomeFan said:
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this is anecdotal but I have 8 nephews, all under 30 yo, seven from NJ and one from Ohio. All are playing of played sports in high school and college. None are even near my level of interest in the NFL at under 30, not even close. They barely know who the Giants or Steelers are playing on a week to week basis. Yes, the all watched the SB I am sure but regular season is very sporadic on their NFl viewing and pretty ho-hum on whether they watch any game.
I'm not sure what the point is, other than anecdotal evidence taken in small morsels can look very different than empirical evidence taken in the aggregate?
There were kids who played sports but weren't die hard NFL fans 30-40 years ago, too. I was friends with plenty of kids like that back then.
Somehow the NFL's engaged audience isn't shrinking. It may be evolving into a different audience than it used to be, but it's not getting smaller. So you're observing a handful of kids today that have different interests than a handful of different kids did a generation ago. I noticed the same thing about grunge music. Can you believe that there are kids today who play instruments but don't listen to Nirvana or Soundgarden? When I was their age, every kid who played an instrument listened to those bands!
There are dozens of major brands that have seen their core buyer shift in a similar way over the past 30 years. Do you think Apple's core consumer is the same as they were in 1994? How about Amazon? How about FedEx? What about a shopping mall? What about any restaurant that delivers food? Do you think they have the same relationship with their customers now in the food delivery app era that they had even 15 years ago when people ordered from the same handful of places and kept their menus in the junk drawer?
yes, SB was watched and this year had a perfect storm. But seems that the focus on the NFL and die-hard fans aren't coming through the ranks. I wonder how the ratings are in the under 30 demo during the regular season.
Seems like you're still basing your entire conclusion on your eight nephews.
The definition of what constitutes a "diehard" fan probably merits some discussion. When I was a kid, we had a two games on Sundays, usually just the Giants game and the Jets game, and then Sunday Night Football (on ESPN), and Monday Night Football (on ABC). There was WFAN for daily discussion (there was no satellite radio and there wasn't even a competing all-sports radio station in the NYC market), the local newspapers for daily updates, and then just chatter amongst other fans wherever you found them (friends, family, etc.). We might get an occasional feature or blurb in Sports Illustrated or The Sporting News. We had The Giant Insider print edition.
There was no internet yet, which meant there were no message boards, no social media, no streaming, no NFL Network. There weren't even any competitors to ESPN yet back then, and there were barely any regional sports networks yet. We had Sportschannel, but there was no YES, no MSG, no SNY, no FSN, etc. Being a diehard fan wasn't really all that time consuming in terms of our daily lives.
Now, you have 24/7 access to NFL news and updates. You can find people to discuss the Giants with at any time of the day, any day of the week. You can watch any Giants game from the past, you can watch any NFL game of the present, you can consume multiple games at the same time across various screens. You get email newsletters, social media updates, message board threads, and blog updates. You get podcasts, and radio shows, and you can tune into radio shows for any market in the world.
Being a diehard fan in 2024 is materially different than being a diehard fan was in 1994. We probably remember how much we CARED about the Giants 30-40 years ago, but we weren't consuming the Giants anywhere close to as much as we do now. All of which is to say that there are fans that we would call casual NFL fans nowadays that actually spend more time engaged with the NFL than we did, as the most diehard of the diehards, as recently as a generation ago.
The NFL didn't force all of those changes. The world did. The NFL just kept up with that evolution, IMO. The same goes for almost any other customer affinity for any other brand, product, personality, etc. There is so much more out there to consume. We grew up at a time when we were starved for access to the things we cared about. Now, the kids who represent the modern equivalent of us from then have infinite content at their fingertips, and their challenge is prioritizing that content within their lives.
Being a diehard now isn't the same as it used to be, and it's unrealistic to expect kids who grew up in the internet era to have the same view of what being a diehard fan means. For us, it was a part of our identity because most of our fan experience happened internally or interpersonally. Now it involves interacting with a screen more often than not. It's not the same.
If you dislike change, you are going to dislike irrelevance even more.
the total estimate of ff players in 2022 between all platforms was somewhere between 40-50m people and more than double what it was a decade earlier.
idk about anyone else but i know very few people who play ff and dont tune in for 2+ games per week now that there are games on at least 3 different days and twice in prime time.
can growth sustain forever? probably not but it hasnt yet.
[quote] is there anything more NFL 2024 than Greenlaw rupturing his Achilles tendon running onto the field? [/quot
Lolll. Nope
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but they had the two best teams playing(sorry Ravens), the Taylor Swift phenomenon and a pretty good game on top.
We can piss and moan about how the NFL conducts business, but they seem to know what they are doing.
Yes and no. They became vocal about subjects they shouldn't have touched and backed off (at least publicly). They've decided to "go Hollywood" (for lack of a better phrase) and it has helped.
But many of the football-related changes and commercialization have made the viewing experience noticeably worse for anyone over 40-50 years old. This gets into the actual quality of play as well as the way the game is presented.
They are seeking a new, bigger audience that is less committed to the product.... the casual fan over the diehard one. It is what it is.
Speak for yourself. I’m 55 and enjoy the product greatly. All year long and not just Giants football.. The negativity and lack of support on this board makes me wonder why a lot of folks here continue to be football fans.
Can you blame them for wanting to do that?
No but the question is if they are doing it at the risk of losing something long term. Weve yet to see sports take a fall as it gravitated towards more entertainment then a gladiator event in the rise if the ESPN era. But it could be a possibility as I think a large % feel as if its become out of touch. Letting the tik tok crowd take over football is t sustainable if the non tick tock crowd opt out. Their riding a popularity wave versus likeing the gane for what it truly is.
they alienate their fan base.
But the NFL is not Bud Light, and the fan base for pro sports is different than most consumer products so I think that risk is very very minor. There is no "Modelo" to take market share from the NFL, fans option is consume the product or don't. And most will no matter how arrogant or obnoxious the NFL gets.
After that the biggest risk is simply the growth ventures don't pan out. People don't watch on Peacock or Amazon Prime or Munich hates American football. Or the US Government bans ads for gambling, and that just impacts growth which is really what the NFL is focused on (like many businesses).
just my opinion.
another form of entertainment could get popular,
player safety could become a bigger issue that leads to legislation, or lower participation,
they could lose revenue streams like gambling.
none may seem likely right now but predicting 50 years from now or 100 years from now who knows. and if any of that happens maybe milking for all they can now is the right move anyway.
The NFL needs to embrace tech, interest the young generation, and figure out how they are expanding to a new continent full time if they are going to continue to grow. They are nailing the first 2 and the last one is TBD - but judging by how long they are taking they seem to be pretty methodical with it and I bet that will pan out too.
The NFL needs to embrace tech, interest the young generation, and figure out how they are expanding to a new continent full time if they are going to continue to grow. They are nailing the first 2 and the last one is TBD - but judging by how long they are taking they seem to be pretty methodical with it and I bet that will pan out too.
I said the risk is very very small. but you lose the hard core fans and the bond becomes weaker and it takes less for people to find something else to spend their money on.
And I don't think they nailed the younger generations. Data shows in fact younger generations are far less interested in NFL than previous generations (even year to year in the same generation). Maybe the first one (tech) helps, but I doubt technology is the reason people consume the NFL. I think they have to want to watch the games first, then technology can be an enhancer or enabler, but I doubt it's the draw. be interesting to find out though.
I think the numbers are even worse if you look at Gen Z as a whole. Probably even millennials compared to Gen X for example and even boomers.
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they’ve been successfully focusing on new fans and it keeps working. 5/10 years ago I laughed at some of their decisions but they keep panning out. And I don’t think anyone is being alienated outside of fringe fans or the older crowd that gets disinterested in things as they age anyway.
The NFL needs to embrace tech, interest the young generation, and figure out how they are expanding to a new continent full time if they are going to continue to grow. They are nailing the first 2 and the last one is TBD - but judging by how long they are taking they seem to be pretty methodical with it and I bet that will pan out too.
I said the risk is very very small. but you lose the hard core fans and the bond becomes weaker and it takes less for people to find something else to spend their money on.
And I don't think they nailed the younger generations. Data shows in fact younger generations are far less interested in NFL than previous generations (even year to year in the same generation). Maybe the first one (tech) helps, but I doubt technology is the reason people consume the NFL. I think they have to want to watch the games first, then technology can be an enhancer or enabler, but I doubt it's the draw. be interesting to find out though.
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...The NFL's viewership among youth has indeed been declining in recent years. A 2023 study by the Pew Research Center found that only 15% of 12-to-17-year-olds reported following the NFL, down from 25% in 2016. This decline is likely due to a number of factors, including the rise of other sports and entertainment options, such as video games and streaming services....
I think the numbers are even worse if you look at Gen Z as a whole. Probably even millennials compared to Gen X for example and even boomers.
We're we love the game, many who watch the Super Bowl don't really know or care, they watch it because it's a time to be around friends and have a good time. Nothing wrong with that.
Many watch to see the Half-time show, and here's something that may shock many - Some watch to see the COMMERCIALS !
Some, in the World, this year, just watched to catch a glimpse of the most popular person in the World - (you know who) !
Kind of like, how I am with basketball, except of the Celtics, sometimes. IF I tune in, most of the time I will get up and go do something else for 10-15 minutes, no matter who is playing.
Everybody's different, I've switched channels at half-time the last five Super Bowls because I'm not Rap fan, but I do enjoy seeing the new commercials. "Different strokes for different folks".
One thing I really miss is the custom super bowl logos. I wish 46 had a unique logo.
the only thing id point to that would be considered as marginally elevated risk is their willingness to be greedy at all times. some b2c companies that want to last forever bend over backwards for brand loyalty. nfl bends their fans over backwards.
beyond what's already been mentioned from the era post tagliabue this may not qualify as 'discreet' but just like .1% less greed. if someone buys sunday ticket, throw in red zone. and preseason games. they are making enough money they could throw fans a few bones instead of acting like spirit airlines.
dont mind the 3 day draft but i wish they'd keep it more about the football/players less of the concert/sideshow.
1. No Thursday night football. I don't mind an annual MNF game or two if your team is a contender and popular draw, but I can't stand TNF and when being honest coaches and teams hate it too. even playing prime time. Coaches like routine and consistency. and the more "off schedule" games the harder it is to get into that routine. and TNF is basically just a money grab. My preference is for all games to be Sunday at 1 with the occasional 4
2. This is a hard one and not really due to any specific change but just an obvious (seeming) degradation in quality, but consistent officiating and simpler rules. When it takes 4 to 5 minutes to review if a play is a catch and then the "experts" get it wrong half the time too. and the game changing calls and non-calls do impact the game.
3. 66 quarterbacks started games in 2023. Not all were due to injury, some were due to poor play by the starter, but a lot were due to injury. The rules to protect QB's aren't working. Football is a violent game and the ridiculous rules about protecting a QB get "over-called" and impact the game negatively. go back to the days where QB's are treated like other players. I doubt the injuries are worse than what we currently see.
4. If you're going to legislate kick-offs out of the game. Get them out of the game or allow the option to not kick. The sequence of commercial break, kick-off out of the end zone, commercial break, offense starts series is the kind of thing baseball would eliminate in their efforts to speed the game up, football should too. If you as the kicking team intend to kick it out of the end zone, give the kicking the team the option to just not kick it. and avoid the 5 minutes+ of commercials and designate it so the offense just starts at the 25. I view this like an intentional walk in baseball where you no longer need to throw the pitches.
5. Fewer defensive penalties should be automatic 1st downs if the penalty yardage wouldn't result in a 1st down (like defensive holding). Why is that an automatic 1st down on 3rd and 15. It's a 5 yard penalty why not just make it 3rd and 10 if the play is incomplete. or make it even. Offensive holding is 10 yards, why not just make defensive holding 10 yards and if it's not a 1st down instead of 3rd and 15 it's 3rd and 5.
I am sure I have more and some have been mentioned by others, and again a lot of this is just things I'd change not things related to recent changes. I love a lot of the new things.
I like the gambling, lol, fantasy football, red zone, sunday ticket, I have Amazon Prime so that broadcast media games don't bother me, I like the challenges in general since you want to get game altering plays officiated correctly but half the time it seems like it's still controversial (per my inconsistent officiating comment), and more of the last decade or whatever changes.
I'm curious about replay in the context of the past. Was there a time when fans liked it?
I'm curious about replay in the context of the past. Was there a time when fans liked it?
Not sure how others feel, but I'm torn. I want the calls to be right, obviously, but I also feel like a: after lengthy reviews it's still sometimes seems like they get it wrong and b: the delays hurt the flow of the game.
this is an area I think technology can help. Like the British fan in his review of the championship games noted- how are things like placement of the football and breaking the plane of the goal line, not managed by technology at this point.
In hockey I feel like review is killing the game in some areas (irrelevant off sides, interpreting goalie interference, intending to blow a whistle, etc.) - at some level if you can be sure the refs are not compromised I'm prepared to accept it's a game played by humans refereed by humans - they call it to the best of their ability and you live with the results.
In some areas I feel like I would adopt that mindset for football too. Unless you can ensure replay is fast and accurate.
Every penalty that's a matter of placement -- offsides, in/out of bounds, breaking the goal, etc. can all be easily called by sensors.
I'd also like to see all reviews initiated by the booth, and have a strict 60 second timer, or the play stands.
The Super Bowl intros of each team. When players were announced individually that was a real, genuine moment in their lives that really came across on TV. Now we get these canned, overproduced pieces that are written by the networks. I know I'm in the minority but I thought the "Resiliency" thing in 2007 was so corny.
The look on Hostetler's face before he came out of the tunnel on his own in 1990: that is real.
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Earnest question to the group, what are some discreet things you wish had not changed and from what era?
The Super Bowl intros of each team. When players were announced individually that was a real, genuine moment in their lives that really came across on TV. Now we get these canned, overproduced pieces that are written by the networks. I know I'm in the minority but I thought the "Resiliency" thing in 2007 was so corny.
The look on Hostetler's face before he came out of the tunnel on his own in 1990: that is real.
that whole approach got ended when the 2001 Patriots refused individual intros and were simply introduced and ran out of the tunnel as a team.
I think (though not 100% sure) that's the first time that was done at a Super Bowl.
How can you go back to individuals now?
The fact that the rules can’t be implemented well across a wide group of officials isn’t proof that we need officials, it’s that the rules have to be redesigned.
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In comment 16398399 christian said:
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Earnest question to the group, what are some discreet things you wish had not changed and from what era?
The Super Bowl intros of each team. When players were announced individually that was a real, genuine moment in their lives that really came across on TV. Now we get these canned, overproduced pieces that are written by the networks. I know I'm in the minority but I thought the "Resiliency" thing in 2007 was so corny.
The look on Hostetler's face before he came out of the tunnel on his own in 1990: that is real.
that whole approach got ended when the 2001 Patriots refused individual intros and were simply introduced and ran out of the tunnel as a team.
I think (though not 100% sure) that's the first time that was done at a Super Bowl.
How can you go back to individuals now?
I don't see why you couldn't, but I'm sure it's not even a consideration. The canned stuff makes me cringe. The one this past Sunday was so lame; Tony Gonzalez screaming in front of a green screen like it's a comic book movie.
I could just picture in 2008: "Ok Eli we need you to run through it again, but look at camera 2 this time when you say 'Resiliency'." Ugh. Might as well be a GEICO ad.
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In comment 16398728 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16398399 christian said:
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Earnest question to the group, what are some discreet things you wish had not changed and from what era?
The Super Bowl intros of each team. When players were announced individually that was a real, genuine moment in their lives that really came across on TV. Now we get these canned, overproduced pieces that are written by the networks. I know I'm in the minority but I thought the "Resiliency" thing in 2007 was so corny.
The look on Hostetler's face before he came out of the tunnel on his own in 1990: that is real.
that whole approach got ended when the 2001 Patriots refused individual intros and were simply introduced and ran out of the tunnel as a team.
I think (though not 100% sure) that's the first time that was done at a Super Bowl.
How can you go back to individuals now?
I don't see why you couldn't, but I'm sure it's not even a consideration. The canned stuff makes me cringe. The one this past Sunday was so lame; Tony Gonzalez screaming in front of a green screen like it's a comic book movie.
I could just picture in 2008: "Ok Eli we need you to run through it again, but look at camera 2 this time when you say 'Resiliency'." Ugh. Might as well be a GEICO ad.
Agree, elements of the super bowl seem manufactured and plastic.
I moved away from NY in 1979, so I've was unable to watch most of the NYG games until the later 80's when bars began getting all the games on direcTV, but you had to get there early and make sure your game got on a TV you could see and usually with no sound because they would be playing the home team over their speaker system. And many times they had trouble or were limited on the games they could show and you wouldn't be able to get the game until midway the first quarter. It sucked! Then in 2010 I was able to get direcTV and could watch the games live--unless it snowed or rained hard and screwed the reception. Finally, I got the NFL package off the internet about 5 years ago, so I can watch every game in comfort of my home.
Nowadays, I watch the NYG on delay--a couple hours after it finished. Usually, the full commercial-less version, unless I heard they got killed, then I watch the condensed one when I can handle it. I also, watch many of the other games condensed version, sometimes just the second half or 4th quarter.