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| Ian Hartitz @Ihartitz Worst quarterbacks in terms of allowing pressures to be converted into sacks in 2023 (PFF) 1. Tommy DeVito (37% of pressures turned into sacks) 2. Daniel Jones (32%) 3. Ryan Tannehill (30%) 4. Bryce Young (25%) 5. Zach Wilson (24%) |
How many teams would trade their WRs for the Chiefs WRs? Any?
Would you rather have the Giants WRs or the Chiefs?
I think the Giants need to draft QBs until they find one they can win a championship with. IMO that piece is not on the current roster.
IMO until that piece is in place nothing else matters.
The biggest piece of evidence that this is on Jones and De Vito: Tyrod Taylor isn't on this list. Something's wrong. Even if this is all on those two guys, there's a flaw in the personnel dept. that put them on the roster together.
2 - they both hold the ball too long
Talk about no one is open or talk about these guys not manipulating the pocket or whatever but ultimately these are really the main two factors in this PFF turning pressures into sacks “stat” in my opinion.
I mean, it's possible he has a bounce-back season in 2024 but he'd have to be 1) good and 2) healthy for 2 or 3 seasons in a row to have any chance of being the Giants' answer at QB. I think the chances of that are very slim. Close to zero, even.
How many teams would trade their WRs for the Chiefs WRs? Any?
Would you rather have the Giants WRs or the Chiefs?
I think the Giants need to draft QBs until they find one they can win a championship with. IMO that piece is not on the current roster.
IMO until that piece is in place nothing else matters.
Do you just ignore how poor their offense has been and how great their defense has been?
That's the graphic representation of being David Carr'd.
That's the graphic representation of being David Carr'd.
lol... another with the David Carr myth. Somehow Jones got Carr'd but Burrow, Levis, Tua, Cousins didn't. Jones got Carr'd because like Carr, he was a bad QB.
IMO, the fact DJ faced the quickest pressure combined with an astonishingly bad pressure % is what Carr'd him.
You say he always sucked. Good for you.
The sooner the idiots at 1925 Giants Way realize that, the better.
No, because it's a rate stat, not a counting stat.
Anybody who watched Jones and Devito in their games could see they were actively contributing to the sack totals and why Daboll wanted Taylor in literally as long as he had a pulse.
Can't just blame the OL all the time. Our QBs aren't good enough to overcome even mediocre OL play.
Everyone knows the line sucks and it has to be fixed. This "do you get a QB or fix the Oline?" question is idiotic. You do BOTH! BOTH are the problem.
I don't see anyone posting "Do we get a WR or Edge this year?" You know why? Because you can do BOTH.
He was sacked 43 times on 143 pressures in 2022, for 31%
Golden boy Barkley was bad and is a below average pass blocker. Thomas was hurt.
There are many reasons why the Giants were bad, it’s not all on Jones.
Comparing him to Mahomes is stupid. No one else is as good as Mahomes. All the other QBs mentioned have at least one star player to throw to. We hitched our wagon to Waller as our star acquisition who hasn’t been a star in 2 years you get what you get. Our best player on O is an OT and it’s not even close for 2nd. Barkley at a whopping 3.9 yards per carry couldn’t perform behind this OL either
[quote] In comment 16398191 Bruner4329 said:
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Do you think it has anything to do with the fact we had the worst OL in the league that gave up the most sacks by far. Any QB at some point would be shell shocked to play behind this OL.
And not just a pressue from one missed block. Frquently had simultaneous jail.
YES!!
2 - they both hold the ball too long
Talk about no one is open or talk about these guys not manipulating the pocket or whatever but ultimately these are really the main two factors in this PFF turning pressures into sacks “stat” in my opinion.
To your point, no one is open is the reason they hold the ball to long, trying to make a play.
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1 - the OL stinks
2 - they both hold the ball too long
Talk about no one is open or talk about these guys not manipulating the pocket or whatever but ultimately these are really the main two factors in this PFF turning pressures into sacks “stat” in my opinion.
To your point, no one is open is the reason they hold the ball to long, trying to make a play.
Giants receivers were near the top of the league in separation again.
I don’t think Jones defenders actually understand the stat. His percentage was basically the same in 2022.
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1 - the OL stinks
2 - they both hold the ball too long
Talk about no one is open or talk about these guys not manipulating the pocket or whatever but ultimately these are really the main two factors in this PFF turning pressures into sacks “stat” in my opinion.
To your point, no one is open is the reason they hold the ball to long, trying to make a play.
How many open receivers doing jumping jacks do we need to see?
He didn't turn the ball over for that stretch.
Took a ton of sacks.
It helps to be so if all of your O-linemen are in the top 20, at their position ....
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams
IOL - Joe Tierney (#1), Creed Humprey (#2), Trey Smith (#4)
OT - Jawann Taylor (#15), Donovan Smith (#17)
Note: Adding insult-to-injury; Ex Giants' BBI "hated ones" -
IOLs Will Hernandez #13 and Jon Feliciano #18.
Remember how HELPLESS Mahomes looked in Super Bowl LV, when he was running for his life, all day, because his sucked ? The Bucs administered a 31-9 whipping.
Mahomes was on one leg against TB and 4/5 of the line was backups (one being a third string PSer).
Great QBs make pedestrian players look better.
Small sample size, but DeVito had 2 disastrous sack games - Saints (7), Pats (6). 2 sacks total in his other 3 games.
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Jones faced (easily) the quickest pressure in the NFL & the highest pressure % rate in the NFL.
That's the graphic representation of being David Carr'd.
lol... another with the David Carr myth. Somehow Jones got Carr'd but Burrow, Levis, Tua, Cousins didn't. Jones got Carr'd because like Carr, he was a bad QB.
David Carr was actually pretty good for a time. Even with Data, you insist the oline wasn't a real problem, and that.. No, you don't need a functional oline to be successful. Burrow got injured with his terrible line, and when they started blocking and got healthy Jake Browning (JAKE BROWNING) looked good. But don't let data sway your dug in position. He's the guy at the top of graph. He had Tee Higgins, He had Jamar Chase, and a functioning oline at the end of the year. Supported by data.
I'm calling you guys the Binary take club. Good/Bad, no such thing as gray. Context means nothing right?
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In comment 16398254 mittenedman said:
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Jones faced (easily) the quickest pressure in the NFL & the highest pressure % rate in the NFL.
That's the graphic representation of being David Carr'd.
lol... another with the David Carr myth. Somehow Jones got Carr'd but Burrow, Levis, Tua, Cousins didn't. Jones got Carr'd because like Carr, he was a bad QB.
David Carr was actually pretty good for a time. Even with Data, you insist the oline wasn't a real problem, and that.. No, you don't need a functional oline to be successful. Burrow got injured with his terrible line, and when they started blocking and got healthy Jake Browning (JAKE BROWNING) looked good. But don't let data sway your dug in position. He's the guy at the top of graph. He had Tee Higgins, He had Jamar Chase, and a functioning oline at the end of the year. Supported by data.
I'm calling you guys the Binary take club. Good/Bad, no such thing as gray. Context means nothing right?
Sorry, dude. You don't have data. You have a bunch of vague assertions stitched together by a bogus theory. Burrow had bad OLs after the injury. Herbert had atrocious OLs. Eli Manning won a Super Bowl with a shit OL. Beyond that, there isn't a single bit of compelling evidence that David Carr was any good as a QB other than, I saw him throw a tight spiral once, I saw him play a good game once. Good QBs put together good careers by doing the job over and over again with consistency, play after play, game after game, season after season. All these highly drafted QBs get enough starts to prove their worth. If they still suck after 60 career starts, that's it -- you suck. That's the situation with Carr, and it's the situation with Daniel Jones. Carr had plenty of opportunities to show he can play. Jones had plenty of opportunities to show he can play. The bad play outweighs the good play. It's as simple as that. And when you can't put up much more good play than bad play, then you don't start in the NFL. Except if you play for the New York fucking Giants, where you can suck for half a decade but management, and an unbelievably large percentage of deluded fans, think a small fraction of decent play is the real QB, and all the bad stuff, piles of bad plays, bad games, and bad seasons, they don't exist.
I agree our org was and could still be broken, and am frustrated. Changing coordinators every year, having historically terrible O-lines, and no weapons but an oft injured running back are some big issues as well. The suck is/was everywhere. Your binary argument pins the sole success of this franchise on one player out of 22.. when he’s has time to throw, he’s been pretty good. If we can upgrade, awesome, all for it. But this droning on how he’s solely responsible shows a lack of understanding of the game, and how important protection is.
The final four this year .. Eagles, Ravens, Niners, Chiefs all had very good olines. Their QB’s? Not as linear an argument.
Mahomes would be way worse than Jones. Daniel Jones is actually the best QB in the league, it's everyone else's fault he can't succeed.
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Mahomes would be just like Jones if he was here
Mahomes would be way worse than Jones. Daniel Jones is actually the best QB in the league, it's everyone else's fault he can't succeed.
Been this way in college. Really should have won the Heisman every year as a starter. Shame his teammates have held him back for so long
That's the graphic representation of being David Carr'd.
2.3 seconds 52% of the is simply inoperable. What level of success could anyone reasonably expect under that much pressure?
Anybody who watched Jones and Devito in their games could see they were actively contributing to the sack totals and why Daboll wanted Taylor in literally as long as he had a pulse.
Can't just blame the OL all the time. Our QBs aren't good enough to overcome even mediocre OL play.
I agree. I would say Jones didn't play well in that Seattle game but people need to rewatch the first Dallas game, the 49er game and the Dolphin game again. To suggest Ezeudu was mediocre would have been a compliment.
The David Carr talk is kind of funny. Eli Manning suffered the same fate but judging by the criteria, he just suddenly got bad, no rhyme or reason behind what happened in 2016 other than a shit HC job/GM ignoring the line.
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1 - the OL stinks
2 - they both hold the ball too long
Talk about no one is open or talk about these guys not manipulating the pocket or whatever but ultimately these are really the main two factors in this PFF turning pressures into sacks “stat” in my opinion.
To your point, no one is open is the reason they hold the ball to long, trying to make a play.
I hope you wouldn’t bet your life on this because there is plenty of data and plenty of All 22 film that proves that the WRs were in fact getting open. You just keep adding to the mountain of evidence that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about
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1 - the OL stinks
2 - they both hold the ball too long
Talk about no one is open or talk about these guys not manipulating the pocket or whatever but ultimately these are really the main two factors in this PFF turning pressures into sacks “stat” in my opinion.
To your point, no one is open is the reason they hold the ball to long, trying to make a play.
Then throw the ball away.
Oh, I forgot. We are looking to lose both Down and Distance to ensure the drive ends right there.
Eli Manning got older and aged out of his prime, like literally every other athlete whose ever played a sport. He just aged out a little earlier, like Matt Ryan or Russell Wilson.
Could Eli have had a 1993 Phil Simms-level season with a great line? Probably, but eventially that team ran into prime Steve Young and got rolled, just like the 2016 team got rolled by prime Aaron Rodgers.
Instead of trying to get 5 pro bowlers at the OL to prop up average (and in Jones' case most of time, worse than average) QB play, just get better QB play AND upgrade the OL where you can.
I agree our org was and could still be broken, and am frustrated. Changing coordinators every year, having historically terrible O-lines, and no weapons but an oft injured running back are some big issues as well. The suck is/was everywhere. Your binary argument pins the sole success of this franchise on one player out of 22.. when he’s has time to throw, he’s been pretty good. If we can upgrade, awesome, all for it. But this droning on how he’s solely responsible shows a lack of understanding of the game, and how important protection is.
The final four this year .. Eagles, Ravens, Niners, Chiefs all had very good olines. Their QB’s? Not as linear an argument.
Lol. The only thing funnier than someone completely misinformed, is a misinformed person who is smug about it.
You either don't watch the NFL or you have terrible analytical ability. The modern NFL hinges on the QB. Sorry it's not 1986 any longer, or 2007. Look at the playoff QBs. Look at the haves vs the have nots. The playoffs are a whos who of the best QBs.
And Jones has never been a good passer. So you want to make excuses and stick with a QB coming off two big injuries who rarely finishes a season and in year 6 hasn't been anything more than a below average passer, and who posted 32nd ranked starter numbers in 2023, have at it. Sorry, but I wouldn't trust you to make any important decisions. I woukd suggest you take another look at the data, rather than becoming a poster boy for the Dunning Kruger Effect.
Between DJ running into sacks and/or failing to call out protections and/or missing obvious blitzes AND Eli falling down every time he was touched at the end of this career... those numbers are going to be lopsided.
It's a shared problem - which too many don't want to believe.
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You are mostly anecdotal and frustrated. Which I get. Your fantasy that an nfl team lives and dies on one player is the simple dream. This isn’t the NBA, and we were never in position to get those guys. Herbert wasn’t very good this year and he had some weapons. He started to see ghosts at the end of the year, while being beat to a pulp. Those hits add up. But just ignore what’s convenient, like actual time to throw. That is data btw.
I agree our org was and could still be broken, and am frustrated. Changing coordinators every year, having historically terrible O-lines, and no weapons but an oft injured running back are some big issues as well. The suck is/was everywhere. Your binary argument pins the sole success of this franchise on one player out of 22.. when he’s has time to throw, he’s been pretty good. If we can upgrade, awesome, all for it. But this droning on how he’s solely responsible shows a lack of understanding of the game, and how important protection is.
The final four this year .. Eagles, Ravens, Niners, Chiefs all had very good olines. Their QB’s? Not as linear an argument.
Lol. The only thing funnier than someone completely misinformed, is a misinformed person who is smug about it.
You either don't watch the NFL or you have terrible analytical ability. The modern NFL hinges on the QB. Sorry it's not 1986 any longer, or 2007. Look at the playoff QBs. Look at the haves vs the have nots. The playoffs are a whos who of the best QBs.
And Jones has never been a good passer. So you want to make excuses and stick with a QB coming off two big injuries who rarely finishes a season and in year 6 hasn't been anything more than a below average passer, and who posted 32nd ranked starter numbers in 2023, have at it. Sorry, but I wouldn't trust you to make any important decisions. I woukd suggest you take another look at the data, rather than becoming a poster boy for the Dunning Kruger Effect.
You offer nothing but anecdotes. He bad cuz he bad and Mahomes good. Really that is what your argument hinges on. We need a good QB, and we win. Got it.
Most would disagree with your take that . I worked in Molecular analytics for yeas, use statistics in my line of work, and have played football. I know you have been here for a couple months, which tells me you have switched handles for some reason, and your now getting a tad touchy. You don't have to rely on me for anything "manhattan" .. so don't. Asked what alternatives you would have selected instead of Jones.. crickets. You weren't here posting back then, so i guess you can pick any position you'd like, but I think at this point, this is a waste of time.
But let's memorialize your nuanced take..., we need a top four QB, ideally the best one ever, and we can win. Awesome! Oline ain't the issue -- check. Receivers -- ain't the issue, check. But Jones is terrible, and was from the drop, and the primary reason we didn't win last year. I am of the opinion that a QB needs some baseline requirements to survive in an offense and they haven't been met. Joe Montana wasn't Joe Montana without some help. Jones is not Montana, but he's not Zach Wilson either. Bye, have fun watching football and waiting for Mahomes.
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In comment 16398511 RAIN said:
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You are mostly anecdotal and frustrated. Which I get. Your fantasy that an nfl team lives and dies on one player is the simple dream. This isn’t the NBA, and we were never in position to get those guys. Herbert wasn’t very good this year and he had some weapons. He started to see ghosts at the end of the year, while being beat to a pulp. Those hits add up. But just ignore what’s convenient, like actual time to throw. That is data btw.
I agree our org was and could still be broken, and am frustrated. Changing coordinators every year, having historically terrible O-lines, and no weapons but an oft injured running back are some big issues as well. The suck is/was everywhere. Your binary argument pins the sole success of this franchise on one player out of 22.. when he’s has time to throw, he’s been pretty good. If we can upgrade, awesome, all for it. But this droning on how he’s solely responsible shows a lack of understanding of the game, and how important protection is.
The final four this year .. Eagles, Ravens, Niners, Chiefs all had very good olines. Their QB’s? Not as linear an argument.
Lol. The only thing funnier than someone completely misinformed, is a misinformed person who is smug about it.
You either don't watch the NFL or you have terrible analytical ability. The modern NFL hinges on the QB. Sorry it's not 1986 any longer, or 2007. Look at the playoff QBs. Look at the haves vs the have nots. The playoffs are a whos who of the best QBs.
And Jones has never been a good passer. So you want to make excuses and stick with a QB coming off two big injuries who rarely finishes a season and in year 6 hasn't been anything more than a below average passer, and who posted 32nd ranked starter numbers in 2023, have at it. Sorry, but I wouldn't trust you to make any important decisions. I woukd suggest you take another look at the data, rather than becoming a poster boy for the Dunning Kruger Effect.
You offer nothing but anecdotes. He bad cuz he bad and Mahomes good. Really that is what your argument hinges on. We need a good QB, and we win. Got it.
Most would disagree with your take that . I worked in Molecular analytics for yeas, use statistics in my line of work, and have played football. I know you have been here for a couple months, which tells me you have switched handles for some reason, and your now getting a tad touchy. You don't have to rely on me for anything "manhattan" .. so don't. Asked what alternatives you would have selected instead of Jones.. crickets. You weren't here posting back then, so i guess you can pick any position you'd like, but I think at this point, this is a waste of time.
But let's memorialize your nuanced take..., we need a top four QB, ideally the best one ever, and we can win. Awesome! Oline ain't the issue -- check. Receivers -- ain't the issue, check. But Jones is terrible, and was from the drop, and the primary reason we didn't win last year. I am of the opinion that a QB needs some baseline requirements to survive in an offense and they haven't been met. Joe Montana wasn't Joe Montana without some help. Jones is not Montana, but he's not Zach Wilson either. Bye, have fun watching football and waiting for Mahomes.
Ok you claim to have a background in statistics and I assume probabilities. I can quote you chapter and verse on stats that show without question that Jones is a limited QB. But let's tackle a probability question, shall we? What are the chances that a QB with Jones' statistical performance after 5 years will eventually emerge as a Super Bowl winner, especially in this era of amped up offenses? Answer: Very low.
And what are the chances, based on the same career performance, that he will never emerge as a serious challenger to win a Super Bowl title, never mind compete for multiple titles? Answer: Very high.
Weigh these two. You can apply this same test to all the rookies coming in. Every one of the top 5 or 6, will provide a better probability of emerging as a Super Bowl challenger than Daniel Jones, because their ceilings are untested and largely unknown. Then why should we waste more seasons (a season being the most precious resource an NFL franchise has), and more time, on a player with a low probability to achieve the ultimate goal - which is to win Super Bowls. Right? That's the ultimate goal, correct? The goal for the New York Giants isn't a science project to figure out how far we can go with Daniel Jones. The goal for the New York Giants is to take the most direct path to compete for multiple titles.
So if you are someone who appreciates statistics, probabilities and game theory, you will take this question seriously. But if you are someone who wants to flout their background but can't actually use it for any critical analysis and would rather lean on outdated and hackneyed football clichés, by all means continue to pump up a failed and overpaid QB, and push for us to squander more seasons trying to figure out what we already knew two seasons ago.
Ok you claim to have a background in statistics and I assume probabilities. I can quote you chapter and verse on stats that show without question that Jones is a limited QB. But let's tackle a probability question, shall we? What are the chances that a QB with Jones' statistical performance after 5 years will eventually emerge as a Super Bowl winner, especially in this era of amped up offenses? Answer: Very low.
And what are the chances, based on the same career performance, that he will never emerge as a serious challenger to win a Super Bowl title, never mind compete for multiple titles? Answer: Very high.
Weigh these two. You can apply this same test to all the rookies coming in. Every one of the top 5 or 6, will provide a better probability of emerging as a Super Bowl challenger than Daniel Jones, because their ceilings are untested and largely unknown. Then why should we waste more seasons (a season being the most precious resource an NFL franchise has), and more time, on a player with a low probability to achieve the ultimate goal - which is to win Super Bowls. Right? That's the ultimate goal, correct? The goal for the New York Giants isn't a science project to figure out how far we can go with Daniel Jones. The goal for the New York Giants is to take the most direct path to compete for multiple titles.
If you factor in cost, the odds are even worse. You could replace Jones with an exact replica on a rookie contract and be far better off than the Giants are now or will be if they continue moving forward with Jones at $40+ million per.
If Mahomes was the Giants QB this year with the exact same roster, all the injuries and all the OL chaos I think they would have won at least 10 games.
If the Giants had made the same trade with the Bills that the Chiefs did they would have given up Evan Engram and Daniel Jones for Patrick Mahomes.
If the Giants trade their 1st round pick this year and 1st round pick next year to move up for a QB I hope they get it right like the Chiefs did. The Bills did something similar to move up to draft Josh Allen. Of course Ernie did something similar to get Eli.
Drafting QBs seems to be boom or bust. The Giants desperately need a boom this year.
After 58 years this is the list of Super Bowl winning QB's that aren't or won't be in the NFL Hall of Fame.
Pre free agency 1966 - 1992
Jim Plunket - twice
Joe Theismann
Phil Simms
Doug Williams
Jeff Hostetler
Mark Rypien
Post free agency 1993-2024
Trent Dilfer
Brad Johnson
Joe Flacco
Nick Foles
58 Super Bowls only 10 winning QBs not in the NFL Hall of Fame. I think there would be only 9 if Phil didn't get hurt in 1990. 26 out of the last 30 Super Bowls have been won by current or probable Hall of Fame QBs.
What's the probability that Daniel Jones is going to be in the NFL Hall of Fame?
I’m all for taking a guy we have a conviction on. No issue with that. We’ll start another clock on a guy that can learn and grow, and hopefully we fix the OL for him. This year we have options. I will agree that we may need to move on.