I wish I had saved it so I could post it in it's entirety but about a month ago I wrote Mara a lengthy letter expressing my thoughts on the current direction of the team, my displeasure at how they've handled the QB position and strongly suggested that they take this QB class very seriously even if that means being overly aggressive in ensuring they find their future QB. I didn't hold anything back, I mentioned how insane it would be to give Jones yet another year given what we've seen so far and how doing so would almost certainly lead to yet another house cleaning next offseason in a much weaker QB class (as of now). I also said that if they did that I wouldn't spend a dime on this team next year.
I didn't expect to hear back but I wanted him to know how many of us feel as fans right now. I don't know what I expected him to reply if he did but it certainly wasn't what he wrote.
Here was his reply
He wrote back very quickly to a 2 page letter so I imagine that he reads everything he receives. Ultimately it may not make a difference but I'd urge others that feel this way to write to him, it certainly can't hurt to hear from as many fans as possible.
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So it’s Jones fault that after a pretty good rookie year that Shurmer got fired?
Really?
Jones is the reason the Judge was canned?
Interesting observation
You have to look at common factors.
Potential gets coaches fired.
We needed a QB,we paid market price,not a penny more not a penny less.
DJ got hurt
It fucking happens..
Stop the madness
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To say he sucks not even 6 full games later. My hope is Schoen did put an escape hatch in the deal which is 1 year from now and Jones has since suffered a neck and ACL. The team is also not nearly as close as they thought they were a year ago.
I think all these things provide an easy pivot to Schoen without ever having to admit that Jones is a bad player.
They are never going to say he sucks. But it’s 17 games since the extension, not 6. Him being unavailable for 11 of them absolutely counts in the evaluation. We need to stop saying 6 games. The other 11 count just as much, maybe more
Its plainly obvious Jones can't be relied upon to be a winning QB. I wpuld say most fans acknowledge that. But having it repeated by people here who have nothing better to do but ruin conversatins being had about the team. Its not like there is some massive wave of Jones support prior to these responses. There are people who won't even let the offseason start before they start bitching and as inciteful as these people might be (I for one think the ideas are quite extreme and defies any logic for a front office), they repeat them 8n the same tone even though everybody is aware of the stance and is tired of hearing the same high school loudspeaker annoucements in every thread they peek into.
We needed a QB,we paid market price,not a penny more not a penny less.
DJ got hurt
It fucking happens..
Stop the madness
He had a neck injury a few years ago. He wasn’t good before he got hurt, rushed back and tore his ACL.
We needed a QB,we paid market price,not a penny more not a penny less.
DJ got hurt
It fucking happens..
Stop the madness
Well, for starters...
A winning organization.
Is it that difficult? Quit and sell.
But they have to contend with their owner’s weird obsession with Jones. And it is weird. Jones has done NOTHING to warrant such admiration. But Mara has publicly gone to bat multiple times for Jones. Why???
This will be Jones’ SIXTH year! Sixth!!!
Did you see BDs reaction to DJ after the GB game in England, Arizona game, Colt game, Minnasota game? Don't hang your hat on one incident, too many QBs, even the greats, have made bonehead plays at one time or another.
Brady just had a $35.1M dead cap hit this past season. The Bucs were close to a NFC title appearance.
Let that sink in, folks.
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I'd hope and expect that Schoen & Daboll are leading the evaluation and decision.
Not only this, is Mara supposed to actually say, "you know what Mr. Random Fan, you are really clued in. We are sick of DJ disappointing years after year and we are doing everything we can to take a QB in the first and if that doesnt work out we will trade other picks to move up in the 2nd. But we are certainly Done with Jones!
Yours,
John"
Come onnnnnn
You’re not very bright, are you? He could have very easily just said “thank you for sharing your concerns. We’re always looking for ways to improve our team, especially after a disappointing season.”
My advice is be grateful he wrote back to you and be thankful his response is that the football guys will decide. Spend a little time reading posts and you should get an idea that fans calling the shots amounts to a terrible idea, thank you.
He’s a sports team owner. There is always public pressure. If fans aren’t happy, they won’t spend money. It’s as simple as that. If you don’t think the owner (of any team for that matter), isn’t involved in the decision making when it comes to to the single most important position in professional sports, then I don’t know what to tell you,
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In comment 16398350 Tim in Eternal Blue said:
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So it’s Jones fault that after a pretty good rookie year that Shurmer got fired?
Really?
Jones is the reason the Judge was canned?
Interesting observation
You have to look at common factors.
Potential gets coaches fired.
So what the common factor they after having a good rookie year led to Shurmur’s firing?
Let that sink in, folks.
Not looking good for that this decade at moment.
I WANT Schoen, Daboll and Mara to outwardly show they are committed to Jones. It is the poker thing to do.
I WANT Schoen, Daboll and Mara to outwardly show they are committed to Jones. It is the poker thing to do.
Please don’t confuse this board with logic, sanity or anything close to being a rational argument. It’s a lot more fun to let things stay in a fantasy world. 😎
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In comment 16398407 Sean said:
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I'd hope and expect that Schoen & Daboll are leading the evaluation and decision.
Not only this, is Mara supposed to actually say, "you know what Mr. Random Fan, you are really clued in. We are sick of DJ disappointing years after year and we are doing everything we can to take a QB in the first and if that doesnt work out we will trade other picks to move up in the 2nd. But we are certainly Done with Jones!
Yours,
John"
Come onnnnnn
You’re not very bright, are you? He could have very easily just said “thank you for sharing your concerns. We’re always looking for ways to improve our team, especially after a disappointing season.”
I guess my post deserved that kind of treatment. But he could have sent that exact same letter and it wouldve said the exact same thing.
But sure, go on and insult me simply because it sounded like a response he had to send out 10k times.
Jones fits in the poor crew. Jones has no ability to find WR targets, and when he does throw the ball they are rarely caught due to being off target. His ability to rush with the ball himself will be gone now since the ACL injury. He's a nice guy, it's impossible to dislike him as a person, but being a nice gut doesn't win football games. Jones works hard at rehabbing himself after his multiple injuries, but that doesn't make him an elite QB, yet Mara wants to pay him like an elite QB.
The Giants MUST draft a QB! They need to move on from Jones.
"Oh yeah Daniel fucking sucks we are ready to move on ASAP even though we have no idea if we will be able to draft a QB."
Mara isn’t going to bash jones and give away ANYTHING about how we handle the position.
My guess is and always has been giants make a move for a QB in April.
Enough with the it’s Mara’s fault, he loves jones so we are screwed. Mara and co know we need to go a different direction. I fully expect us to have a new young race in the qb room
"Oh yeah Daniel fucking sucks we are ready to move on ASAP even though we have no idea if we will be able to draft a QB."
Yea exactly
Ah I understand you’re concern don’t worry we are trying to trade up for Williams
But John Mara, the owner of one of the storied principals in this enterprise, could not be more lost at sea as it relates to running a football operation. First, expressing to an anonymous fan a strategic preference on the direction of the franchise is downright stupid. And not just for revealing that preference. Has he not ever heard the phrase "never let anyone outside the family know what you are thinking?" There are very important reasons to keep your mouth shut as an owner that I need not get into here.
But it is stupid for the preference itself. It clearly and unequivocally signals that the team is committed to a future with Daniel Jones leading this team. Which is precisely the definition of insanity. Repeating the same mistake now for six years and running. But I believe the primary reason he did so is because he is signaling that they will be restructuring his contract so as to mitigate his 2024 cap hit. And making it difficult to move on from DJ for at least another year if not more. So get ready for that lovely nugget to drop soon.
Second, and more importantly, it illustrates the "emperor has no clothes" cultural problem that will prevent this franchise from ever rising to championship pedigree again. The reason the Giants won four Super Bowls is because they had two HoF coaches and two HoF players leading the team. Parcells & LT and Coughlin & Eli. Yes, George Young can be called a genius in putting the first pair together and Ernie Accorsi was smart in putting the second pair together. But in the end, the Giants won four championships because those pairings created the locker room culture of an "earned on the playing field" meritocracy. And clearly the inner workings of that environment established a capacity to identify and develop talent that enabled them to win.
Today, we have a GM, Coach and locker room culture that all bow to the emperor and his misguided views on personnel, looking for scape goats to explain away the self-evident truth that the inability to effectively source talent on the field is the fundamental problem for this organization. The "Maratocracy" phrase presented above is actually a very astute mnemonic! This began with Kevin Gilbride and has continued unabated ever since. But with DJ, it has metastasized into a bizarre quest to be proven right that is leaving coaching casualties in the dust and positioning the team for not only failure going forward, but perhaps our worst Super Bowl Era team ever in 2024. It just can't be DJ causing this though, despite the fact that he cannot process information at average NFL capacity and he constantly looks to be the most uncomfortable player ever to play the quarterback position. It simply must be the coaches. Or the OL. Or the weapons.
The recent look on KT's face when expressing his support for DJ is the tell tale sign that no one can utter the truth on this matter within the organization. Doing so will just accelerate their entry into Mara's "chateau bow wow" and an early exit from the team. So everyone drinks the DJ kool aid and lives for another day, trying their best to keep the Titanic from sinking rather than deploying life boats and moving on. Very sad.
But John Mara, the owner of one of the storied principals in this enterprise, could not be more lost at sea as it relates to running a football operation. First, expressing to an anonymous fan a strategic preference on the direction of the franchise is downright stupid. And not just for revealing that preference. Has he not ever heard the phrase "never let anyone outside the family know what you are thinking?" There are very important reasons to keep your mouth shut as an owner that I need not get into here.
But it is stupid for the preference itself. It clearly and unequivocally signals that the team is committed to a future with Daniel Jones leading this team. Which is precisely the definition of insanity. Repeating the same mistake now for six years and running. But I believe the primary reason he did so is because he is signaling that they will be restructuring his contract so as to mitigate his 2024 cap hit. And making it difficult to move on from DJ for at least another year if not more. So get ready for that lovely nugget to drop soon.
Second, and more importantly, it illustrates the "emperor has no clothes" cultural problem that will prevent this franchise from ever rising to championship pedigree again. The reason the Giants won four Super Bowls is because they had two HoF coaches and two HoF players leading the team. Parcells & LT and Coughlin & Eli.Yes, George Young can be called a genius in putting the first pair together and Ernie Accorsi was smart in putting the second pair together. But in the end, the Giants won four championships because those pairings created the locker room culture of an "earned on the playing field" meritocracy. And clearly the inner workings of that environment established a capacity to identify and develop talent that enabled them to win.
Today, we have a GM, Coach and locker room culture that all bow to the emperor and his misguided views on personnel, looking for scape goats to explain away the self-evident truth that the inability to effectively source talent on the field is the fundamental problem for this organization. The "Maratocracy" phrase presented above is actually a very astute mnemonic! This began with Kevin Gilbride and has continued unabated ever since. But with DJ, it has metastasized into a bizarre quest to be proven right that is leaving coaching casualties in the dust and positioning the team for not only failure going forward, but perhaps our worst Super Bowl Era team ever in 2024. It just can't be DJ causing this though, despite the fact that he cannot process information at average NFL capacity and he constantly looks to be the most uncomfortable player ever to play the quarterback position. It simply must be the coaches. Or the OL. Or the weapons.
The recent look on KT's face when expressing his support for DJ is the tell tale sign that no one can utter the truth on this matter within the organization. Doing so will just accelerate their entry into Mara's "chateau bow wow" and an early exit from the team. So everyone drinks the DJ kool aid and lives for another day, trying their best to keep the Titanic from sinking rather than deploying life boats and moving on. Very sad.
The Mike, I really enjoy your posts. I'd just say in regards to the bolded part, this is how it is for just about every super bowl winner. Teams with an elite HC/QB combo win super bowls.
For all the debate that's done here, finding a QB will solve a lot. The Chiefs were a rudderless franchise before Reid & Mahomes. The Saints were a joke before Payton & Brees and they are forgettable after them. Belichick & Brady. Coughlin & Manning. The list goes on.
The Giants haven't had strong QB play since 2015. I think Daboll is a good coach, but we won't know for sure until he has a QB who can produce production via the air. If QB is figured out, all of a sudden Mara doesn't look so bad just like Hunt in KC.
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"I do not believe we are ready to give up on Daniel Jones."
Whether or not that's true (and yes of course he isn't going to indicate they are moving on), I don't think the question should be about giving up on him. Rather, is he earning his job? Is he being made to earn it?
Welcome to the Giants, where reasons are found to keep underperforming family members like Jones, Shepard, Gettleman, and (gasp) late career Eli rather than establishing a meritocracy where roles are earned and the best candidates rise to the top.
Im not sure if you should be rooting for this team. All you do is talk shit on literally everything they do and honestly it gets tiresome.
There seems to be group of people here that just do nothing but bash the team. Even when they say something is good about the team, its because another component of the team screwed it up. If you are so down on the team, why discuss it to begin with.?
I came here because I love talking ball and the Giants and none of my peers are into it like I am. Ive stopped texting Hisnts fams friends because I started getting responses like "the team's been dead for ____ weeks, what is there to talk about and why do youwant to talk about a bad team?" The answer is because I want them to turn it around and have to believe that ownership does too.
I do not believe for a second that Mara is meddling any more at this point. I think he made it abundantly clear to Schoen about his fondness for Jones/Barkley and after last year, Schoen was under a ton of pressure to give Jones the contract combined with there not being a qb option where we were drafting, and flushing a playoff season by letting him 2alk would have been a tough ask to have Schoen tell Mara.
But some of you legitimately post the most miserable things about a team you say you care about. This is a fact: its not fun to read the same thought over and over again.
Don't get so upset Norman.
At least try the site longer than a few weeks.
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In comment 16398428 Sean said:
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To say he sucks not even 6 full games later. My hope is Schoen did put an escape hatch in the deal which is 1 year from now and Jones has since suffered a neck and ACL. The team is also not nearly as close as they thought they were a year ago.
I think all these things provide an easy pivot to Schoen without ever having to admit that Jones is a bad player.
They are never going to say he sucks. But it’s 17 games since the extension, not 6. Him being unavailable for 11 of them absolutely counts in the evaluation. We need to stop saying 6 games. The other 11 count just as much, maybe more
Its plainly obvious Jones can't be relied upon to be a winning QB. I wpuld say most fans acknowledge that. But having it repeated by people here who have nothing better to do but ruin conversatins being had about the team. Its not like there is some massive wave of Jones support prior to these responses. There are people who won't even let the offseason start before they start bitching and as inciteful as these people might be (I for one think the ideas are quite extreme and defies any logic for a front office), they repeat them 8n the same tone even though everybody is aware of the stance and is tired of hearing the same high school loudspeaker annoucements in every thread they peek into.
Hang in there.
I honestly don’t think the Giants bigwigs realize how large a segment of the fan base is done with Jones. If the Giants and Jones get off to a slow start, MetLife is going to be one empty place.
Then the Giants lost their way for over a decade which was rooted in bottom 5 drafting for that time period.
They dumped the last great HC (and leader in the building) and the last great QB they failed for his last 6-7 years. Whether it is Jones or someone else they need to better support that QB.
What Mara's role in all this is debatable but it has been clear to me the front office has been the bigger problem of all the issues for a very long time. JS/BD are a big TBD if they are the right tandem.
That said, I'm sure you laid out all the reasons and they are aware of them. I'm not sure that any response other than what was sent is warranted. They won't throw Jones under the bus while he's still here. If, as the letter says, Schoen and Daboll make the call WRT drafting, then so be it.
We'll know in about 10 weeks.
Maybe because his potential is through the roof... yes he's been hurt. Yes he was poorly coached for the first 3 years. Yes he's had NO real NFL receivers on his roster...
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I have NEVER seen a Giant get this much rope. It is so bizarre. Is it because he’s seemingly a nice kid? A hard worker? Eli clone?
Maybe because his potential is through the roof... yes he's been hurt. Yes he was poorly coached for the first 3 years. Yes he's had NO real NFL receivers on his roster...
How low are the ceilings?
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But some of you legitimately post the most miserable things about a team you say you care about. This is a fact: its not fun to read the same thought over and over again.
What else is there to talk about? Posting good things about the Giants, at present, would be either ignorant or dishonest.
What else is there to talk about? I don't know, maybe the fact that our coach was coach of the year just 1 year ago, Schoen drafted a top 10 corner in football at 24, he made the best free agency signing we've made in a decade this past year, nice development from the draft picks aside from Neal, schedule easing up a bit in 2024, we have 3 picks in the top 47 of the NFL draft, new defensive coordinator who led the league in red zone defense, new special teams coordinator in hopes that we won't be the worst unit in football there.
Plenty to discuss, you just choose not to.
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I have NEVER seen a Giant get this much rope. It is so bizarre. Is it because he’s seemingly a nice kid? A hard worker? Eli clone?
Maybe because his potential is through the roof... yes he's been hurt. Yes he was poorly coached for the first 3 years. Yes he's had NO real NFL receivers on his roster...
“Through the roof” lol, if you believe that then I have a bridge to sell you.
2 playoff appearances in 13 years. Two winning seasons in the last 10. One of the worst records in all of sports the last decade. More of the same possibly coming next year.
Keep tugging yourself to one fluke season though.
For me, I really need to see what happens this offseason before I lump Schoen & Daboll into the prior decade.
I actually agree that most owners do weigh in on major personnel decisions. The starting QB is definitely a major personnel decision.
John Mara doesn't differ from his fellow owners in having a preference and stating that preference. Where he differs that not all owners get so attached to abject mediocrity.
There is also nothing wrong with Mara's response. Of course he is not going to announce any plans or decisions related to a player or coach. He is a good man who likely wants this team to win more than anyone on this board. This team is his life and his family's business for generations.
But I do think the letter tips his hand about how he runs the team. To Terp's point about job security, he sees Jones as someone who needs more chances to prove they were right about him, as opposed to seeing Jones as someone who hasn't yet earned job security. This is where being personally attached to the players is a bad thing. You love that he supports ex-players going through tough times and that he genuinely cares. But that can't extend to roster positions and on-field decisions. He runs the team like a family, and that has some upside and some downside. We are seeing that downside right now.
I do want to believe that everyone in the building has come to the conclusion that Jones isn't the answer. There is no reason to conclude anything else except for emotional fondness and/or willful blindness as a handful of fans have. But that isn't going to be put in a letter.
All that matters is what happens between free agency and the draft. If there is no viable replacement for Jones on the roster when the draft ends, this team will continue spinning its wheels because of a fondness for a son who is a really great kid, but not built for this level of competition.
Maybe Mara should have gotten that advice seven years ago.
Let that sink in, folks.
Giants fans find the most arbitrary shit to latch onto as copium.
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I have NEVER seen a Giant get this much rope. It is so bizarre. Is it because he’s seemingly a nice kid? A hard worker? Eli clone?
Maybe because his potential is through the roof... yes he's been hurt. Yes he was poorly coached for the first 3 years. Yes he's had NO real NFL receivers on his roster...
Through the roof?
If these aren't burner accounts, they're Cowboys fans here trolling us. No sane person genuinely believes that DJ's potential is "through the roof."
Get fucking real.
For me, I really need to see what happens this offseason before I lump Schoen & Daboll into the prior decade.
Until proven otherwise, no. I like Schoen and Daboll, but they also made the mistake of paying Jones.
They have to prove they’re different than past regimes, one fluke playoff year doesn’t change that if they miss the playoffs next year and the year after.
Get results to separate yourself from regimes of the past.
But I do think the letter tips his hand about how he runs the team. To Terp's point about job security, he sees Jones as someone who needs more chances to prove they were right about him, as opposed to seeing Jones as someone who hasn't yet earned job security. This is where being personally attached to the players is a bad thing. You love that he supports ex-players going through tough times and that he genuinely cares. But that can't extend to roster positions and on-field decisions. He runs the team like a family, and that has some upside and some downside. We are seeing that downside right now.
This is exactly why I shared it. There's an endless number of ways he could have responded that wouldn't tip the team's hand without giving Jones the big vote of confidence.
All that matters is what happens between free agency and the draft. If there is no viable replacement for Jones on the roster when the draft ends, this team will continue spinning its wheels because of a fondness for a son who is a really great kid, but not built for this level of competition.
Jones is basically Gob. Daddy keeps giving him chances with the company even though he’s nothing more than a screwup, and every once in awhile he has a good idea.
I have his letter. I didn't save the one that I sent to him.
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Oh, and the Giants are basically the youngest team in the NFL. But hey, we didn't make the playoffs this past year so you guys are acting like a bunch of children about it every single day.
2 playoff appearances in 13 years. Two winning seasons in the last 10. One of the worst records in all of sports the last decade. More of the same possibly coming next year.
Keep tugging yourself to one fluke season though.
The ‘22 Giants have morphed into the ‘86 Giants to some. It is so pathetic.
although I do not believe we are ready to give up on Daniel Jones
Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll will make the final call on whether we draft a quarterback.
Some focus only on one statement, while others only focus on the other.
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It actually can hurt what you are asking. What I want is JS and BD making a clear minded unemotional decision. The last thing I want is the experts getting outside pressure. And no, I have zero faith in arm chair GMs making football decisions. Aside from that, literally, people bitch constantly about Mara getting involved and here you are asking the guy to get involved and recruiting people to the cause? Horrible idea.
My advice is be grateful he wrote back to you and be thankful his response is that the football guys will decide. Spend a little time reading posts and you should get an idea that fans calling the shots amounts to a terrible idea, thank you.
He’s a sports team owner. There is always public pressure. If fans aren’t happy, they won’t spend money. It’s as simple as that. If you don’t think the owner (of any team for that matter), isn’t involved in the decision making when it comes to to the single most important position in professional sports, then I don’t know what to tell you,
Everything you've said is OBVIOUS, except massively simplified. Go read my other post and you will see I literally said as much. But there are degrees to everything, which I would have hoped I should not have point out. Good owners resist temptation to cave into fan pressure in favor of letting actual football make the decisions. Imagine that as a concept...