I was watching some clips of the 2011 championship team the other day and I was struck by how much pressure Manning was under throughout the playoffs. But, wow, he really stood tall in the pocket and delivered strike after strike downfield.
So leads me to the question for the audience, if you have the QB position figured out, what would you rather have a great line or great skill players?
Then a legit run threat, but it doesn't have to be elite. Just enough that it can't be ignored. Then WRs and finally TE/FB.
Just look at the SB history and you see how critical OL play is. Not many example of teams winning a SB with a crap OL. The last 30 years many of the SB winners had good to great OL play.
The talent of the skill group and then the QB can navigate not ideal OL play but it is dangerous to rely on that formula trying to navigate the 3-4 playoff journey.
J. Allen was OK until they got a top end WR in Diggs
Dolphins traded for Hill while already having Waddle
Eagles traded for Brown while having Smith
Dallas added Cooks to have with Lamb
Cincy had T. Higgins and Boyd and got Chase
Min drafted Addison in the 1st while having Jefferson
SD had Allen, William, Palmer and used a 1st on Johnson and will likely get another skill guy this draft
Jax had Kirk and Jones and went and got Ridley
The Ravens had 2 1st at WR and still brought in OBJ and Agholor
You need a functional OL but almost always need great skill players
Aaron Rodgers himself said as much on the short lived Bill Simmons HBO show - if it has to be one or the other, have the strong offensive line.
They have Mahomes who is the best and a bunch of skill positions players that, with the exception of Kelce, you might call "average". And the Kelce of the last 2 seasons hasn't been quite the same as his peak level.
Any WR worth a damn should be able to play catch with a great QB at the NFL level. Hardman, MVS, JuJu (last year), these guys are not world beaters, but give Mahomes time and it works.
Manning was absolutely fearless in that game, while David Diehl got beat like a bag. I don't blame Diehl, he later revealed he played the last month of the year with a broken hand.
I wonder what Manning would prefer, a great line like 2008 or a great group of skill players like 2011.
I think that tracks most of the time.
The Eagles by the grading and counting stats had a fantastic offensive line yet again in 2023. They didn't appear to be in every game down the stretch. Curios what your thoughts are on them?
'11 was not a great skill group. Very good indeed and Nicks was projecting to be a great WR but unfortunately was hurt game 2 in 2012 and was never the same.
The Pats had a more talented skill group.
Aaron Rodgers himself said as much on the short lived Bill Simmons HBO show - if it has to be one or the other, have the strong offensive line.
Completely agree, finding good young linemen is much more difficult in the 3rd-6th rounds.
So the OL absolutely above WR.
So the OL absolutely above WR.
I certainly wouldn't limit it to WRs. When I say skill players I'd include TEs and running backs. Does that change the calculus?
THIS. 1000X
If one has to be bad, I would chose the skill players because I feel a great offensive line and a qualified qb can make not-so-good players look much more effective.
I might be willing to be flexible if the skill players are great and the OL is, say, just below average.
Would you rather have the 2008 Giants offensive line or the 2011 Giants pass catchers?
I agree. I'd absolutely rather have an average line with great skill players, than a great line with average skill players.
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Skill players, but I don't think you can have a 'bad' OL.
I agree. I'd absolutely rather have an average line with great skill players, than a great line with average skill players.
Exactly. Outside of the Chiefs, are there serious contenders without elite weapons?
Would you rather have the 2008 Giants offensive line or the 2011 Giants pass catchers?
The 08 OL. I think you could get away with more than with the skill players. More room for error with the OL.
The 08 OL. I think you could get away with more than with the skill players. More room for error with the OL.
Do you think the 2008 offense had room for error?
I think Eli would get killed by even the Bills line--which is ranked as top ten by PFF--line play since the early 2010s has deteriorated across the board. Mobile QBs and elite skill players lessen the need for an elite OL imo.
You can't have bad at either grouping.
Once you have good enough at one, the other can shine.
A great OL can make an OK skill set look a lot better.
An ok OL can allow the great skill set get the job done.
I know the mantra is that the game is won in the trenches, but I don't think that is the entire story. I think the game is lost in the trenches, more than won. An OL that can't open holes, or can't protect the QB for an adequate period of time will lose games.
Once you have good enough at either, give me the great skill set to go with your good to great QB.
Would you rather have the 2008 Giants offensive line or the 2011 Giants pass catchers?
In those respective seasons, the 2011 pass catchers played better than the 2008 OL did. But nevertheless, the great OL is what you want.