Great Line or Great Skill Players?

The regular season especially first 8-12 games were a different story..

only their front 4. The Greenlaw injury was huge for the 2H. I may be old school, but I still believe the game is won, or lost up front. You have to win the LoS on both sides of the ball.

next, for me, is OL. A solid OL and a legit QB can make JAGs at the skill positions look like Pro Bowlers.

Then a legit run threat, but it doesn't have to be elite. Just enough that it can't be ignored. Then WRs and finally TE/FB.

followed by serviceable receivers and RBs.

The OL was much better in the playoffs outside SF. WB being injured turned out to be a blessing. The run game was overall much better as well in the playoffs.

Just look at the SB history and you see how critical OL play is. Not many example of teams winning a SB with a crap OL. The last 30 years many of the SB winners had good to great OL play.

The talent of the skill group and then the QB can navigate not ideal OL play but it is dangerous to rely on that formula trying to navigate the 3-4 playoff journey.

Look at the teams in the league and see what they are doing. It is all about skill position players Outside of Mahomes, there are zero QBs elevating skill players.

J. Allen was OK until they got a top end WR in Diggs

Dolphins traded for Hill while already having Waddle

Eagles traded for Brown while having Smith

Dallas added Cooks to have with Lamb

Cincy had T. Higgins and Boyd and got Chase

Min drafted Addison in the 1st while having Jefferson

SD had Allen, William, Palmer and used a 1st on Johnson and will likely get another skill guy this draft

Jax had Kirk and Jones and went and got Ridley

The Ravens had 2 1st at WR and still brought in OBJ and Agholor

You need a functional OL but almost always need great skill players

as well.

I think this is particularly true now, as college football is producing so many WRs you can find them in later rounds.

Aaron Rodgers himself said as much on the short lived Bill Simmons HBO show - if it has to be one or the other, have the strong offensive line.

Look at the last 2 years of the KC Chiefs as the example.

They have Mahomes who is the best and a bunch of skill positions players that, with the exception of Kelce, you might call "average". And the Kelce of the last 2 seasons hasn't been quite the same as his peak level.

Any WR worth a damn should be able to play catch with a great QB at the NFL level. Hardman, MVS, JuJu (last year), these guys are not world beaters, but give Mahomes time and it works.

I'd encourage anyone who thinks Manning wasn't under a lot of pressure in the Super Bowl to re-watch that game.

Manning was absolutely fearless in that game, while David Diehl got beat like a bag. I don't blame Diehl, he later revealed he played the last month of the year with a broken hand.

I wonder what Manning would prefer, a great line like 2008 or a great group of skill players like 2011.

If you can win the trenches, you're in every game

In comment 16398855 Biteymax22 said:

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If you can win the trenches, you're in every game

I think that tracks most of the time.

The Eagles by the grading and counting stats had a fantastic offensive line yet again in 2023. They didn't appear to be in every game down the stretch. Curios what your thoughts are on them?

Bitey but I took your "trenches" to mean both sides of the ball.

'11 was not a great skill group. Very good indeed and Nicks was projecting to be a great WR but unfortunately was hurt game 2 in 2012 and was never the same.

The Pats had a more talented skill group.

In comment 16398779 Go Terps said:

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I think this is particularly true now, as college football is producing so many WRs you can find them in later rounds. Aaron Rodgers himself said as much on the short lived Bill Simmons HBO show - if it has to be one or the other, have the strong offensive line.

Completely agree, finding good young linemen is much more difficult in the 3rd-6th rounds.

and a solid Oline that lets him scan the field and go through his progressions, someone will get open. This is how you make average receivers look good.

So the OL absolutely above WR.

In comment 16398895 Mike from Ohio said:

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and a solid Oline that lets him scan the field and go through his progressions, someone will get open. This is how you make average receivers look good. So the OL absolutely above WR.

I certainly wouldn't limit it to WRs. When I say skill players I'd include TEs and running backs. Does that change the calculus?

that position group. It's the foundation for everything good on offense. It's hard to compete without a semi-decent Oline.

In comment 16398710 Spider56 said:

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only their front 4. The Greenlaw injury was huge for the 2H. I may be old school, but I still believe the game is won, or lost up front. You have to win the LoS on both sides of the ball.

THIS. 1000X

Offensive line. To dig deeper, if one picks great skill plays, does that mean the OL is terrible, below average? The same goes for those that pick OL, are the skill plays terrible, below average?

If one has to be bad, I would chose the skill players because I feel a great offensive line and a qualified qb can make not-so-good players look much more effective.

I might be willing to be flexible if the skill players are great and the OL is, say, just below average.

Fairly straightforward

How about if the question is framed this way:

Would you rather have the 2008 Giants offensive line or the 2011 Giants pass catchers?

Hm. Let's rewind Odell or Donald or Martin? How many WRs are there's in their teams win. I wanted Martin but Donald would have been fine. Now making sure you pick the right one matters of course. You don't want Tony Mandarich but it's pretty obvious

Skill players, but I don't think you can have a 'bad' OL.

In comment 16399233 BrettNYG10 said:

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Skill players, but I don't think you can have a 'bad' OL.

I agree. I'd absolutely rather have an average line with great skill players, than a great line with average skill players.

In comment 16399238 christian said:

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In comment 16399233 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Skill players, but I don't think you can have a 'bad' OL. I agree. I'd absolutely rather have an average line with great skill players, than a great line with average skill players.

Exactly. Outside of the Chiefs, are there serious contenders without elite weapons?

In comment 16399221 christian said:

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How about if the question is framed this way: Would you rather have the 2008 Giants offensive line or the 2011 Giants pass catchers?

The 08 OL. I think you could get away with more than with the skill players. More room for error with the OL.

In comment 16399252 ChrisRick said:

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Would you rather have the 2008 Giants offensive line or the 2011 Giants pass catchers? The 08 OL. I think you could get away with more than with the skill players. More room for error with the OL.

Do you think the 2008 offense had room for error?

With mobile QBs, I think the quality of the OL is more malleable than ever. Back in 2011, Eli was a master at creating an extra half second with his foot work and pocket movement. Today, guys create seconds with their athleticism and ability to take off.

I think Eli would get killed by even the Bills line--which is ranked as top ten by PFF--line play since the early 2010s has deteriorated across the board. Mobile QBs and elite skill players lessen the need for an elite OL imo.

it isn't either/or

You can't have bad at either grouping.

Once you have good enough at one, the other can shine.

A great OL can make an OK skill set look a lot better.
An ok OL can allow the great skill set get the job done.

I know the mantra is that the game is won in the trenches, but I don't think that is the entire story. I think the game is lost in the trenches, more than won. An OL that can't open holes, or can't protect the QB for an adequate period of time will lose games.

Once you have good enough at either, give me the great skill set to go with your good to great QB.

In comment 16399221 christian said:

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How about if the question is framed this way: Would you rather have the 2008 Giants offensive line or the 2011 Giants pass catchers?

In those respective seasons, the 2011 pass catchers played better than the 2008 OL did. But nevertheless, the great OL is what you want.