Back in 2014, we created the following All-Time team document. Larry did almost all of the work but there was input from Daniel Franck, Mike Moran, John Berti, and myself.
Well felt it was best to break out the players into three distinct eras:
Single-Wing / Single-Platoon Era (1925 – 1949)
Pro T / Two-Platoon Era (1950 – 1977)
Post-Modern (1978 – 2010) & Post-Lockout Eras (2011-2019) Combined
In 2021, we revised the document. With the 100th-year anniversary of the team approaching, Larry correctly believes we should update it again.
My initial thought is we're going to have a problem with a controversial wide receiver from LSU. Right now, in the latter era, we have:
X Receiver – Amani Toomer (1996-2008)
Honorable Mention – Plaxico Burress (2005-08)
Z Receiver – Victor Cruz (2010-2016)
(BTW, we may need to include a slot receiver category).
I think the debate is going to be true talent/ability versus historical "value" and productivity to the franchise.
In other words, how do you view Toomer and Burress versus Beckham as an X receiver?
New York Giants All-Time Team - (
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Glad Richie is included. Someone fairly recently posted he was just a "JAG"
Wow. Who said that?
The way Odell handled slants those first few years was otherworldly. He’d get faster when others slowed down. Don’t know about overall but certainly the most explosive Giant athlete of the last 20 years, Barkley didn’t even have that burst as freakish as he is. But Odell lacked strength, toughness, and tried too hard off the field.
Tuck vs. JPP is tough. JPP in 2011 peaked in such a ridiculous way. I’ll never forget when him and Eli tag-teamed the entire Cowboys and beat them to keep our SB season alive that year. But Tuck was such a beast when he was on, including ‘11 when him waking up might’ve been the key.
Odell has to be among the top three receivers. His first two seasons in the NFL, the only QBs who threw more touchdowns than Eli were Brady and Rodgers. Keep in mind, the season before Odell was drafted was the fewest touchdowns Eli ever threw in a full season.
This list was mostly compiled by Larry with input from others. My involvement in this was mainly a sounding board and weighing in on the tough calls.
There may have been only a handful of players on this list where I had an actual impact.
What's interesting is how things can quickly change. How modern era players were viewed in 2014 did change just a few years later.
Look at Cruz. I can't recall many Giants fans saying back in 2014 that Nicks was the better player. But here we are in 2024 and some in this thread now think otherwise. Interesting.
So when I first came up with this article idea for the Giants 90th anniversary in 2014 I came up with a list broken into three eras of football.
I didn't want it to be just my opinion, I wanted it to be as well rounded and objective as possible.
I had Mike Moran (son of former Giant Hap Moran) assist me with the Single Platoon Era. Daniel Franck contributed to the Pro-T Era - and gave critical input and reshaped my vision of that team significantly and Eric rounded out the Post Modern Era.
I think what we have is the most comprehensive representation of New York Giants players and coaches you'll find anywhere. Forget about online blogs which pretty much exclude anything pre Super Bowl, but history books even disregard the first 30 years of pro football, which I find disgraceful. There were so many fantastic players and innovative coaches who brought pro football forward into the game we love today. Any book you read on the Giants pretty much implies the Giants history began with Frank Gifford and Sam Huff. Sure, they'll be the passing obligatory mentions of The Sneakers Game, Mel Hein and Steve Owen, but don't expect to learn anything about what made those men great and what they meant to the Giants and Pro Football in general.
It is no exaggeration to state that the Giants were critical to the growth of the NFL in the 1920s and 1930s. Benny Friedman and the evolution of the passing game in 1929 and 1930 brought major attention to the pros and helped differentiate them from the college game. The Notre Game All-Stars game in 1930 was a massive boon to pro football's esteem in the public;s eye, and helped pro football actually grow during the Great Depression, while college football and major league baseball suffered at the box office. Steve Owen guided the Giants through the WWII man shortage which ultimately helped the Giants and NFL stave off a major threat from the AAFC following the end of the war. It is a little known fact that the AAFC Yankees salary war nearly bankrupt the Giants, who took out a significant loan to remain solvent.
Then in 1950 Steve Owen concocted the Umbrella Defense to combat Paul Brown's juggernaut team from the rival conference. The Browns went on to win the NFL championship that year, but the Giants were the only team to beat Cleveland, and they did it twice! That was the beginning of the NFL's greatest rivalry of the 1950s and birthed the modern game of football.
So, anyway, that was my long rant on why I think it is important to recognize the totality of the Giants history. You can argue about Odell Beckham and fantasy stats all you want, that's fine. But don't ignore what came before. The guys who wore leather helmets and played both sides of the ball for four quarters without recognition because stats weren't official and highlights were sparsely confined to newsreels in movie theaters made it all possible.
Eric,
Are you able to pull some next gen stats as to who they would have rated as best indivdual season's for a WR in Giants History?
Also, would like to see things such as the difference between him and the 2nd best receiver on his team etc.
I'd be suprsed if teh Advnaced Stats didn't show these type of advantages.
Did you think Odell put the team near completely on his back that year they made the playoffs? Or am I wrong? Okay if I am.
I just have to say I felt like he was everything during thos se four of 5 years. With that said he angered me so much - he was hardly among my favorite players ever so I believe I'm putting up too much of a fightfor him due to my personal frutration with him. I'll drop.
But damn -- he was great for a time.
Not sure how to make a credible argument about a Guard,but having watched both its just my guy feeling
Thanks for all the efforts on this stuff dude
That was a big factor. See the bottom chart Larry created.
That team was 25th in offense.
It was 10th in defense and SECOND in scoring defense.
The defense carried that team.
Odell was a huge part of the offense, but they got there because of the other side of the ball. And then Odell had a horrific playoff game.
That team was 25th in offense.
It was 10th in defense and SECOND in scoring defense.
The defense carried that team.
Odell was a huge part of the offense, but they got there because of the other side of the ball. And then Odell had a horrific playoff game.
I meant offensively -- I thought he was the show. I felt Eli was at a signficant decline and there was nothing else. Cruz was out of football the next year. Odell was the only weapon-.
But as I was talking to you and I spoke of how much he pissed me off at times-- that's probably a factor of probably playing likr a sick dog sometimes where others were more appropriate such as Toomer more appropriate for being all-time.
No longer fighting this.
I’ve always thought Erik Howard was better than Jim Burt.
And, finally, Simms will always be my guy. Eli’s stats dominance rests almost entirely on circumstances beyond Simms’ control - much better receivers, rules changes favoring passing, and a more wide open offense. And remember, Simms threw for 4000 yards back when very few QBs ever had - by 1985 only a handful of QBs had: Namath, Fouts, Marino, Brian Sipe, Lynn Dickey, and Neil Lomax.
Set aside OBJ's eventual emotional meltdown, his injuries in 2017 and 2018 sapped a lot of who he was previously.
The Giants got 3 healthy years from OBJ, 3 healthy years from Cruz, and 3 healthy years from Nicks.
That's comical.
Simms OL for the back end of his career:
Elliot Roberts Oates Moore Reisenberg. Three players on the list of all timers.
Eli's OL post '12. A whole lot of Giants that won't be making any lists.
Both great QB's who needed a quality OL with the skillset they had.
I’ve always thought Erik Howard was better than Jim Burt.
And, finally, Simms will always be my guy. Eli’s stats dominance rests almost entirely on circumstances beyond Simms’ control - much better receivers, rules changes favoring passing, and a more wide open offense. And remember, Simms threw for 4000 yards back when very few QBs ever had - by 1985 only a handful of QBs had: Namath, Fouts, Marino, Brian Sipe, Lynn Dickey, and Neil Lomax.
Greg, I think younger fans who only really knew Toomer from the latter stages of his career don't know how good he was when he was in his prime, especially limited by guys like Kent Graham throwing to him.
When push comes to shove, he's the team's all-time leading receiver. It's not close. That matters.
The other guy who suffers from younger fans not knowing him in his prime is Harry Carson. Before the LT years, Carson was a best. We're talking 20 tackle games on terrible teams. Then LT arrives and Carson is also overshaddowed by LT.
Simms OL for the back end of his career:
Elliot Roberts Oates Moore Reisenberg. Three players on the list of all timers.
Eli's OL post '12. A whole lot of Giants that won't be making any lists.
Both great QB's who needed a quality OL with the skillset they had.
One thing to keep in mind is that this article was originally generated in 2014. Think of how Eli was considered in 2014, just three years after his second Super Bowl and five years before his retirement.
This is what I talked about above how perceptions can quickly change. In 2014, it was largely given that Eli would crush Simms in the stats department but of course he would be back to the playoffs. We all know what happened.
Almost unbelievably, Eli's legacy is a .500 quarterback with two incredible playoff runs and upsets over Tom Brady (8-0 total). If it were not for those two playoff runs, Eli is viewed completely differently.
IMO, the Simms-Manning debate is now a lot closer than it was in 2014.
Set aside OBJ's eventual emotional meltdown, his injuries in 2017 and 2018 sapped a lot of who he was previously.
The Giants got 3 healthy years from OBJ, 3 healthy years from Cruz, and 3 healthy years from Nicks.
That's comical.
I would use a different word than comical.
Simms OL for the back end of his career:
Elliot Roberts Oates Moore Reisenberg. Three players on the list of all timers.
Eli's OL post '12. A whole lot of Giants that won't be making any lists.
Both great QB's who needed a quality OL with the skillset they had.
Does YA Tittle make it into the conversation of the Giants All-Time QB?
Beckham is a dilemma to me.
I'm also influenced by the shitty way he handled himself before, during, and after he was traded (he's still mouthing off to this day about it too, reinventing history).
For a few years, I thought we were witnessing clearly the team's all-time receiver (the Giants also do not have a rich legacy at the position...it's kind of pathetic).
But like Plaxico did himself in, Beckham did as well.
I don't know what it is about the WR position and the Giants, but the team is jinxed.
Toomer is at the top of the stats heap because he's one of the few who didn't see his career sabotaged by his own actions or injuries.
That's comical.
I would use a different word than comical.
In the the "so ridiculous, you have to laugh sense."
I remember pre-Burress the debates on BBI about how aside from Toomer, the Giants had a pretty unimpressive list of "best all time WR."
If you include Burress -- the Giants had 4 guys with really high ceilings fizzle after 3 years as Giants.
That doesn't even include Steve Smith, who had his career cut short as well.
Before my time too. In 1963 he had 36 TD passes, 3100 yards, 60% Completions, and 2 rushing TD. He had a shorter regular season and with much less friendly rules for passing. Not saying he should be the All-Time QB but think he should be in the discussion.
Quote:
This is the “best peak year” versus “sustained, long term excellence” debate.
Toomer was an excellent receiver for longer than some of the other “big names”, so if longevity / historical impact is the criteria, Toomer has it over the likes of Burress, Beckham, Nicks etc.
I tend to more gravitate to the peak / near peak excellence (but not just a one year flash in the pan).
Peak / near peak, I’m taking Beckham, Burress, Nicks over Toomer.
This is correct.
However, I tend to lean to a guy like Toomer. Both played games in Green Bay in the playoffs. One showed up. The other did not.
Ditto. Beckham had a couple of great years, but due to all the other stuff, I would not ever put him on any all-time Giants team. I'll take Nicks, Plax, Cruz, Toomer, hell Phil McConkey before I'd take OBJ.
That Tampa game in 2012 was disastrous. Nicks beat Aqib Talib like a rented mule all day, then that knee injury happened. His career was still on an upward trajectory at that point.
Beckham is a dilemma to me.
I'm also influenced by the shitty way he handled himself before, during, and after he was traded (he's still mouthing off to this day about it too, reinventing history).
For a few years, I thought we were witnessing clearly the team's all-time receiver (the Giants also do not have a rich legacy at the position...it's kind of pathetic).
But like Plaxico did himself in, Beckham did as well.
I don't know what it is about the WR position and the Giants, but the team is jinxed.
Toomer is at the top of the stats heap because he's one of the few who didn't see his career sabotaged by his own actions or injuries.
Yes. When I was tyoping a prior post to you and was saying in a way "I don't even like him . . ." - it made me think "why?" - And that I did support him being traded --
I understand "why" not to put him in. He really isn't / shouldn't be "an all-time Giant" is how I view it now. I understand the dilemma better now.
Homer Jones is a much much better option that Odell. Really Odell doesn't below in the conversation. Toomer, Plax and Homer ahead of Odell just off teh top of my head.
Should be the greatest Giants to ever lace them up. Not the most "talented".
Toomer over OBJ. All day. Twice on Sunday.
Antonio Pierce should be an honorable mention at MLB.
And I'm putting Ottis Anderson in over Rodney Hampton. 2 SB rings. Was instrumental in our 1990 SB run and when he retired he was 7-8 in yards and TDs, respectively. Dude is definitely one on the greatest Giants
Off topic but it would’ve been great to see Snacks vs the tush-push.