The Giants were one of the NFL’s least productive offenses in 2023. They were 30th in points per game (15.6) and 29th in yards per contest (280.0). Blaming Kafka was the easy way out. The bottom line is very little went right...Brian Daboll pinned a huge portion of their offensive woes on him.
From SNY’s Connor Hughes:
There was absolutely tension there. The idea there wasn’t is comical. This is no different than when so many tried to convince you there wasn’t an issue with Daboll and Wink Martindale. Kafka had his playcalling revoked at points last season — scapegoating him for the unit’s problems. He was open to leaving — maybe even more than that, I was told. The Giants prevented it. They were never going to let him leave for a lateral position.
Mike Kafka - (
New Window )
There is not one single instance of Daboll criticizing Kafka in the press.
But if that happened, why is this the first we're hearing about it?
There is not one single instance of Daboll criticizing Kafka in the press.
Because the beats went all in on this narrative and can't walk it back now.
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do you scapegoat someone when you never scapegoated him?
There is not one single instance of Daboll criticizing Kafka in the press.
Because the beats went all in on this narrative and can't walk it back now.
In fact, I'd argue they did the opposite of scapegoat him.
I fully believe Daboll took more control as the season was spiraling (as he SHOULD have), and yet the Giants dismissed all reports of him making changes to the press.
Daboll was nothing but complimentary to his staff publicly..Scapegoating would be the opposite.
Daboll is the head coach. I absolutely want my offensive head coach doing whatever he needs to do to get the team on track. Kafka was a second year PLAYCALLER...sometimes this stuff happens.
I use the word scapegoat all of the time, but it is a loaded word that - to me - implies hanging someone out to dry in the public.
It would appear Connor is using it here to imply that Daboll wasn't happy with the play calls and that he felt it was impacting the offense (similar to how Fassel took away play-calling from Sean Payton) If that's what he meant, I suppose you could use the word scapegoat but I wouldn't.
Regardless, if this is true, how come we are just hearing about this now? There are a half dozen reporters who exclusively cover the team.
But promoting him and giving him a raise is literally the opposite of scapegoating. I'm not sure what more you could do to show quite literally that he was not the issue. You had a backup and even third string QBs coming in and an unstable revolving door OLine. I would be far more worried if BD did nothing to try and get the offense going.
When I did not perform well at my job, it was largely invisible. With these guys, if they don't do well, they have millions of second guessers on their case.
If Kafka was really "hurt", then just resign. Since he is staying and with a promotion and more money, I'm sure the issues have been largely patched over.
As an aside, why can't we have the draft earlier so there are not so many slow news days filled with this sort of pot stirring?
The funny thing here is that the same collection of beats are pounding the table with a narrative that Wink was unhappy because his defense was getting blamed and Kafka is unhappy because he was getting blamed. So BD is a horrible coach for blaming the defense rather than "his" offense but he's also a horrible coach for doing exactly what Wink says he should do, which is try to fix the offense.
Apparently the guys who cover this team were happy with the way things were going expected BD to do nothing to try to fix anything. Unfreaking real.
There is not one single instance of Daboll criticizing Kafka in the press.
That's just what I was going to say. I was thinking back and asking myself when exactly this happened. I couldn't recall a single time.
Am absolutely with you, robbie. After the first six games, I wasn't even watching that closely and I recall numerous observations/suggestions that BD had taken play calling back from MK...and again.
You don't want to use scapegoating? Fine. It is what it is and there is ample evidence that Daboll has a short fuse that he displays in various ways. With him being the OC from Bills hired as HC, of course the O's pathetic showing reflects on him, in addition to MK. Even with what began to emerge as the Wink follies, the ugliness around the O and implicit blame had a ring of truth to me when it first came out. I posted contemporaneously that I thought MK could be an early fallout casualty. Why would it necessarily be only the D side that JS wanted to listen in to? The entire team was in shambles.
If daboll is not publicly making any statements in regards to the play calling or the offensive struggles being on kafka, how is that scapegoating? The media speculated who was calling the plays, but not once did daboll ever confirm that or point fingers.
If they were scapegoating, then why not let him go even for a lateral move? Why promote him and pay him more? If you are scapegoating someone, you would be happy to let them go and continue to point the finger at them.
Slow news day. And a journalist not knowing the proper usage of an important term. Equally unsurprising.
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And scapegoating doesn't have to be public. When you take playcalling duties away, you are blaming the offensive struggles on him nit getting the job done. I know people want to shit all over the leaks from Wink's guys but there were very specific statements there that lend more credence to this being true than false. They had specific weeks that this occurred. That is scapegoating because it is putting the blame on Kafka as opposed to the HC or GM. And, from the article stating when the playcalling was taken away, the results after that were not good at all. From Daboll's perspective, he probably just wanted to try something different because it wasn't working but from Kafka's side, that is embarrassing and puts the blame on him.
If daboll is not publicly making any statements in regards to the play calling or the offensive struggles being on kafka, how is that scapegoating? The media speculated who was calling the plays, but not once did daboll ever confirm that or point fingers.
If they were scapegoating, then why not let him go even for a lateral move? Why promote him and pay him more? If you are scapegoating someone, you would be happy to let them go and continue to point the finger at them.
What is scapegoating? It is putting blame on someone else. That doesn't have to happen in the media. It is going on inside the Giants. If a boss blames one of his employees for his own failure, he has to go to the media to do so? That makes no sense. When you tale the playcalling away from a coordinator, it is scapegoating. You took responsibilities away from an employee for lack of results. Not sure why we are arguing over this. These are proud men in a sport where egos are huge. When you are losing and remove responsibilities from a coach, you are saying they aren't getting the job done.
However, again, scapegoating is a loaded word. It implies you are blaming someone for something when they are not at fault or should't receive the bulk of the blame.
Let's assume Daboll did take over the play calling (sidenote: when? for how long? why didn't Connor report this earlier?)... but let's assume Daboll did. "Scapegoat" implies that Daboll did this to make Kafka look bad.
If he did take it over, do you honestly think that was the reason? To make Kafka look bad? And if that was the case, why would he make him assistant head coach?
So what if it was embarrassing? Everyone should have been embarrassed by the results of last season, and everyone should take part of the blame. The guy didn't get fired or anything - his direct supervisor reportedly took over one of his roles for a few weeks and then gave it back. That's not the boss blaming him for everything that's gone wrong, it's the boss trying to do his own job better, acknowledging the fact that everything isn't going right and trying some different things to get things moving in the right direction. So man up, try to do your job better, and be part of the improvement process. Same for everyone else.
And I imagine that is what he eventually decided to do, even if at some point or another he felt hurt and wanted to leave.
I think Daboll has every right to take over playing and override calls during the game. Kafka is young and learning and perhaps his ego was bruised by losing play calling responsibilities. Whatever....
However, I can't recall one report this year that the play-calling was taken away from Kafka. On the contrary, I think Daboll was asked about it and he denied it. That doesn't mean he wasn't lying, but again "scapegoat"?
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And scapegoating doesn't have to be public. When you take playcalling duties away, you are blaming the offensive struggles on him nit getting the job done. I know people want to shit all over the leaks from Wink's guys but there were very specific statements there that lend more credence to this being true than false. They had specific weeks that this occurred. That is scapegoating because it is putting the blame on Kafka as opposed to the HC or GM. And, from the article stating when the playcalling was taken away, the results after that were not good at all. From Daboll's perspective, he probably just wanted to try something different because it wasn't working but from Kafka's side, that is embarrassing and puts the blame on him.
So what if it was embarrassing? Everyone should have been embarrassed by the results of last season, and everyone should take part of the blame. The guy didn't get fired or anything - his direct supervisor reportedly took over one of his roles for a few weeks and then gave it back. That's not the boss blaming him for everything that's gone wrong, it's the boss trying to do his own job better, acknowledging the fact that everything isn't going right and trying some different things to get things moving in the right direction. So man up, try to do your job better, and be part of the improvement process. Same for everyone else.
And I imagine that is what he eventually decided to do, even if at some point or another he felt hurt and wanted to leave.
So the tough guy approach? Playcalling was taken away because Daboll felt someone could do better which didn't happen. Why would Kafka want to stay? He has no connection with Daboll other than this job. Again, this didn't just happen all at once. Kafka probably felt that way and now Daboll seems to be trying to fix the situation by giving him a better title.
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In comment 16401758 robbieballs2003 said:
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And scapegoating doesn't have to be public. When you take playcalling duties away, you are blaming the offensive struggles on him nit getting the job done. I know people want to shit all over the leaks from Wink's guys but there were very specific statements there that lend more credence to this being true than false. They had specific weeks that this occurred. That is scapegoating because it is putting the blame on Kafka as opposed to the HC or GM. And, from the article stating when the playcalling was taken away, the results after that were not good at all. From Daboll's perspective, he probably just wanted to try something different because it wasn't working but from Kafka's side, that is embarrassing and puts the blame on him.
If daboll is not publicly making any statements in regards to the play calling or the offensive struggles being on kafka, how is that scapegoating? The media speculated who was calling the plays, but not once did daboll ever confirm that or point fingers.
If they were scapegoating, then why not let him go even for a lateral move? Why promote him and pay him more? If you are scapegoating someone, you would be happy to let them go and continue to point the finger at them.
What is scapegoating? It is putting blame on someone else. That doesn't have to happen in the media. It is going on inside the Giants. If a boss blames one of his employees for his own failure, he has to go to the media to do so? That makes no sense. When you tale the playcalling away from a coordinator, it is scapegoating. You took responsibilities away from an employee for lack of results. Not sure why we are arguing over this. These are proud men in a sport where egos are huge. When you are losing and remove responsibilities from a coach, you are saying they aren't getting the job done.
You’re assuming Daboll took over the play calling and that’s only based on internet detectives seeing Daboll talking into his headset. There is zero proof this happened. In fact if you Google Daboll play calling, all sorts of articles pop up and both Daboll and Kafka deny Daboll took over play calling. Daniel Jones said that Kafka was the one he was getting the plays from. You’re free to believe anything you want but calling all three liars based on random speculation that has never been proven seems like a stretch to me. But hey, conspiracy theories are all the rage these days
Can anyone really dispute all of that?
If your boss blamed you for poor results and took away some of your responsibilities, would you not at least be OPEN to leaving your company for another job?
If you really have an agenda, go after his decision making on the quarterback and offensive line situations. "Too mean"? "Too difficult to work with?" Boo fucking hoo. If the Giants were in the playoffs again, you guys wouldn't give a shit.
But they aren't in the playoffs because of the QB and offensive line (not to mention the defense was bottom tier again).
Can anyone really dispute all of that?
If your boss blamed you for poor results and took away some of your responsibilities, would you not at least be OPEN to leaving your company for another job?
We can dispute whether or not he actually took over the play calling, sure. They all deny it. Maybe they are all lying but what is the proof that they are?
However, again, scapegoating is a loaded word. It implies you are blaming someone for something when they are not at fault or should't receive the bulk of the blame.
Let's assume Daboll did take over the play calling (sidenote: when? for how long? why didn't Connor report this earlier?)... but let's assume Daboll did. "Scapegoat" implies that Daboll did this to make Kafka look bad.
If he did take it over, do you honestly think that was the reason? To make Kafka look bad? And if that was the case, why would he make him assistant head coach?
I think we have different definitions of scapegoat. There doesn't need to be shaming involved. I just look at it as simple as Daboll thinking he wasn't doing a good job so he took the playcalling away. Therefore, directly or indirectly, Kafka was the reason the offense wasn't performing. That is Daboll saying he thinks the offense is capable of more and Kafka was the reason. If the rumors are true that it went back to Kafka, that is Daboll saying okay now I know it wasn't you. It is the personnel. So, for that brief period of time, it can easily be viewed as Daboll was blaming Kafka. When he gave it back, it was him admitting he was wrong. While the end is the same that Kafka wasn't at fault, the journey was not the same. And why else would Kafka get a promotion? Our offense was putrid. Our team was one of the worst in the NFL. Kafka couldn't leave for any other job unless it was a HCing job. There was no need to give him the new title. So, why now? It just screams of Daboll trying to fix the issue between them.
Personally, I have no issue with anything that occurred. It is what it is. Daboll tries to keep everything close and keaves the media out of everything. But, too many fans seems to defend this team at all costs. I do agree the media makes up a lot of shit. We've seen it from too many writers like Leonard and Ranaan. But when very detailed pieces come out, I don't think they should be dismissed either.
Can anyone really dispute all of that?
If your boss blamed you for poor results and took away some of your responsibilities, would you not at least be OPEN to leaving your company for another job?
You are not incorrect.
But again, scapegoat implies you are being a dick about it. As pointed out by others, Daboll did everything to protect the image of Kafka (assuming the play-calling story is legit).
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In comment 16401791 TrueBlue56 said:
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In comment 16401758 robbieballs2003 said:
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And scapegoating doesn't have to be public. When you take playcalling duties away, you are blaming the offensive struggles on him nit getting the job done. I know people want to shit all over the leaks from Wink's guys but there were very specific statements there that lend more credence to this being true than false. They had specific weeks that this occurred. That is scapegoating because it is putting the blame on Kafka as opposed to the HC or GM. And, from the article stating when the playcalling was taken away, the results after that were not good at all. From Daboll's perspective, he probably just wanted to try something different because it wasn't working but from Kafka's side, that is embarrassing and puts the blame on him.
If daboll is not publicly making any statements in regards to the play calling or the offensive struggles being on kafka, how is that scapegoating? The media speculated who was calling the plays, but not once did daboll ever confirm that or point fingers.
If they were scapegoating, then why not let him go even for a lateral move? Why promote him and pay him more? If you are scapegoating someone, you would be happy to let them go and continue to point the finger at them.
What is scapegoating? It is putting blame on someone else. That doesn't have to happen in the media. It is going on inside the Giants. If a boss blames one of his employees for his own failure, he has to go to the media to do so? That makes no sense. When you tale the playcalling away from a coordinator, it is scapegoating. You took responsibilities away from an employee for lack of results. Not sure why we are arguing over this. These are proud men in a sport where egos are huge. When you are losing and remove responsibilities from a coach, you are saying they aren't getting the job done.
You’re assuming Daboll took over the play calling and that’s only based on internet detectives seeing Daboll talking into his headset. There is zero proof this happened. In fact if you Google Daboll play calling, all sorts of articles pop up and both Daboll and Kafka deny Daboll took over play calling. Daniel Jones said that Kafka was the one he was getting the plays from. You’re free to believe anything you want but calling all three liars based on random speculation that has never been proven seems like a stretch to me. But hey, conspiracy theories are all the rage these days
Not once did I say Daboll took over playcalling. Everything is an assumption because coaches don't want their dirty laundry aired for all to see.
I believe Daboll was asked about this at least once, perhaps more. He said Kafka would continue to call the plays.
After the season, there has been some asshat talk that Daboll would call the plays in 2024 (this was before the Seattle request and his Kafka's promotion).
It's February 18, 2024. If Daboll did take over play-calling in at some point in 2023, why are we only hearing about it right now?
The irony is that I suspect many of the same people who wanted Kafka fired will now latch onto this and say this is proof Daboll is the issue.
Kafka is not long for the Giants, but it's more based on his own merits.
Fans are beginning to conflate the number of negative news stories (which again, started with the Wink/Drew crap) with some perceived growing dysfunction inside the organization.
We have no evidence of the latter except what Wink generated.
But fans are getting the impression of chaos.
I believe Daboll was asked about this at least once, perhaps more. He said Kafka would continue to call the plays.
After the season, there has been some asshat talk that Daboll would call the plays in 2024 (this was before the Seattle request and his Kafka's promotion).
It's February 18, 2024. If Daboll did take over play-calling in at some point in 2023, why are we only hearing about it right now?
It's not the first we are hearing about it. I know you crap all over the Wink article by Leonard but, as I have said a few times now, there were very detailed quotes on what happened with the playcalling. You have also said numerous times that Daboll HATES when things get leaked. He is not going to publicly shame anyone, hence why he gave Wink the game ball after the leak. It was so transparent. Not once have I ever seen Daboll give a game ball to a coach. People said we were reading way too much into it. No. It was exactly as it appeared. Same for Kafka. He isn't going to say that he took the playcalling away and, if I remember the article correctly, Daboll didn't take over playcalling. He gave it to someone else if not multiple people. And the last time I will say this, if you're going to lie, it would be really odd to state specific weeks and a specific person who took over playcalling. You'd simple state that playcalling duties were taken away or you could say Daboll interfered with playcalling. Why state specific weeks and people? I don't think it should just be dismissed.
Daboll may be taking away his play-calling duties but assuaging his feelings a bit by giving him a promotion that will also help him get a new job. But if Daboll didn't want him here, they would not have blocked his interview.
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might not be "a sign all is A-OK between the two in Giants land" but it's also not necessarily an indication that the two sides aren't fine, either. It not only happens in the NFL all the time, but everywhere else as well. Employees use evidence that others are also interested in their services to their advantage with their current bosses. This situation might be different from most since the Giants could block him without giving the raise, but if anything that shows they are treating him with respect, which seems like a good thing to me.
Daboll may be taking away his play-calling duties but assuaging his feelings a bit by giving him a promotion that will also help him get a new job. But if Daboll didn't want him here, they would not have blocked his interview.
Or he really wants those two 3rd round picks next year. 🤣
No, I think it was another offensive coach.
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As far as I know, the play-calling remained with Daboll during the 2023 season. When things went south, reporters and fans began speculating that Daboll might want to start calling the plays.
I believe Daboll was asked about this at least once, perhaps more. He said Kafka would continue to call the plays.
After the season, there has been some asshat talk that Daboll would call the plays in 2024 (this was before the Seattle request and his Kafka's promotion).
It's February 18, 2024. If Daboll did take over play-calling in at some point in 2023, why are we only hearing about it right now?
It's not the first we are hearing about it. I know you crap all over the Wink article by Leonard but, as I have said a few times now, there were very detailed quotes on what happened with the playcalling. You have also said numerous times that Daboll HATES when things get leaked. He is not going to publicly shame anyone, hence why he gave Wink the game ball after the leak. It was so transparent. Not once have I ever seen Daboll give a game ball to a coach. People said we were reading way too much into it. No. It was exactly as it appeared. Same for Kafka. He isn't going to say that he took the playcalling away and, if I remember the article correctly, Daboll didn't take over playcalling. He gave it to someone else if not multiple people. And the last time I will say this, if you're going to lie, it would be really odd to state specific weeks and a specific person who took over playcalling. You'd simple state that playcalling duties were taken away or you could say Daboll interfered with playcalling. Why state specific weeks and people? I don't think it should just be dismissed.
robbie - having a hard time following your logic. Just who were all these other people calling plays for the offense. The only one I could see is Tierney.
As far as I know, there was some noise about Daboll either thinking of taking over or perhaps really calling some plays. Never, ever did I read anything about other people calling plays.
And sorry, I do dismiss most of the Wink/Leonard narrative.
Start at the section Off The Wave - ( New Window )
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Did Leonard say Daboll called the plays last year? If so, I did not see that.
No, I think it was another offensive coach.
I'm not following you. What specifically was said?
The quotes in that article are from Martindale/Wilkins. We know that now.
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In comment 16401821 Eric from BBI said:
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As far as I know, the play-calling remained with Daboll during the 2023 season. When things went south, reporters and fans began speculating that Daboll might want to start calling the plays.
I believe Daboll was asked about this at least once, perhaps more. He said Kafka would continue to call the plays.
After the season, there has been some asshat talk that Daboll would call the plays in 2024 (this was before the Seattle request and his Kafka's promotion).
It's February 18, 2024. If Daboll did take over play-calling in at some point in 2023, why are we only hearing about it right now?
It's not the first we are hearing about it. I know you crap all over the Wink article by Leonard but, as I have said a few times now, there were very detailed quotes on what happened with the playcalling. You have also said numerous times that Daboll HATES when things get leaked. He is not going to publicly shame anyone, hence why he gave Wink the game ball after the leak. It was so transparent. Not once have I ever seen Daboll give a game ball to a coach. People said we were reading way too much into it. No. It was exactly as it appeared. Same for Kafka. He isn't going to say that he took the playcalling away and, if I remember the article correctly, Daboll didn't take over playcalling. He gave it to someone else if not multiple people. And the last time I will say this, if you're going to lie, it would be really odd to state specific weeks and a specific person who took over playcalling. You'd simple state that playcalling duties were taken away or you could say Daboll interfered with playcalling. Why state specific weeks and people? I don't think it should just be dismissed.
robbie - having a hard time following your logic. Just who were all these other people calling plays for the offense. The only one I could see is Tierney.
As far as I know, there was some noise about Daboll either thinking of taking over or perhaps really calling some plays. Never, ever did I read anything about other people calling plays.
And sorry, I do dismiss most of the Wink/Leonard narrative.
I'm not saying I believe most of it but this stuff is out there for a reason. Again, when specifics are mentioned, it brings more credence to the side of the story. Daboll is never going to give his side of the story. There is no benefit to him so using Daboll as one side isn't going to help any argument. All we know is that this is still a story. I also found it weird that there were leaks that said, "Some in the Giants organization want Daboll to call plays." Where is that coming from? It isn't coming from Wink and his goons.
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Maybe Daboll did some weeks but the QB coach was specifically named.. Start at the section Off The Wave - ( New Window )
The quotes in that article are from Martindale/Wilkins. We know that now.
So? Does it make it automatically false?
I can see Kafka feeling like he was getting blamed for the offense’s dysfunction, but if Daboll thought he was ineffective enough to take over play calling, why go to so much effort to keep him?
BUT.....
If you close follow Pat Leonard's Twitter account, you get a very good insight to his character and journalistic warts (and I'm being polite here). He's a shit-stirrer. And I don't think it's always intentional. I think he's not good at evaluating information.
I never completely discount him because sometimes he has some decent info (and I post his tweets here).
But I can't tell you how many times I've read tweets from him and thought, "what a dick."
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In comment 16401758 robbieballs2003 said:
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And scapegoating doesn't have to be public. When you take playcalling duties away, you are blaming the offensive struggles on him nit getting the job done. I know people want to shit all over the leaks from Wink's guys but there were very specific statements there that lend more credence to this being true than false. They had specific weeks that this occurred. That is scapegoating because it is putting the blame on Kafka as opposed to the HC or GM. And, from the article stating when the playcalling was taken away, the results after that were not good at all. From Daboll's perspective, he probably just wanted to try something different because it wasn't working but from Kafka's side, that is embarrassing and puts the blame on him.
So what if it was embarrassing? Everyone should have been embarrassed by the results of last season, and everyone should take part of the blame. The guy didn't get fired or anything - his direct supervisor reportedly took over one of his roles for a few weeks and then gave it back. That's not the boss blaming him for everything that's gone wrong, it's the boss trying to do his own job better, acknowledging the fact that everything isn't going right and trying some different things to get things moving in the right direction. So man up, try to do your job better, and be part of the improvement process. Same for everyone else.
And I imagine that is what he eventually decided to do, even if at some point or another he felt hurt and wanted to leave.
So the tough guy approach? Playcalling was taken away because Daboll felt someone could do better which didn't happen. Why would Kafka want to stay? He has no connection with Daboll other than this job. Again, this didn't just happen all at once. Kafka probably felt that way and now Daboll seems to be trying to fix the situation by giving him a better title.
It's not a tough guy approach IMO. It's taking some emotion out of a situation where, with incomplete knowledge of how the subjects are communicating, feeling, etc, people on the outside are just throwing in their own emotions and assumptions.
I can make a narrative where Daboll approached Kafka, saying something like, "Mike, you're doing a great job. We know the injuries and player limitations are holding us back, but there's not much we can do about those right now. I have to try something. I love your play designs. What do you think about me taking over play calling for a little bit? If it goes well, we'll talk about what about it is different and work together to get it back in your hands moving forward." And then two or three weeks later, "Well, that didn't go so great. I think we can learn about some things that happened in particular game situations, but yeah, I agree with your arguments about what you would have tried and agree it's better in your hands. Thanks for understanding where I was coming from and that I had to try. Let's get things going and turn things around."
With that kind of discussion and decision-making, as well as how Daboll handled it in the press, why would Kafka be so upset?
And yes, I'd assume that the above is much closer to what happened (if any of the play calling stuff is even true) than what many are picturing in their heads when they read articles like this.
Not once has Daboll ever cast any blame on Mike Kafka, whether he took away play calling or not, in the media and public eye he defended him and stood by him as his OC. Given his relationship with Tierney, Kafka was our easiest coordinator to replace yet the only one still here, think about it…
If I had to make an educated guess, the sources of information for things like this are probably still tying back to either the Wilkins brothers themselves or someone else they gave information too.
Management has rallied the troops to counter the narrative that Daboll is difficult to work for. The team wouldn't have had to block Kafka from a lateral move if Kafka didn't want to go. None of this matter if he wins. If he doesn't, he's going to be out the door.
Didn't Daboll have a history of some sort at his other stops?
Be worried about how he handles the quarterback and offensive line positions.
This other stuff doesn't register with me. I still can't get over the fact that fans are upset that the coach may have been upset during a 6-11 season. When I tell other people about these discussions offsite, they don't believe me.
BUT.....
If you close follow Pat Leonard's Twitter account, you get a very good insight to his character and journalistic warts (and I'm being polite here). He's a shit-stirrer. And I don't think it's always intentional. I think he's not good at evaluating information.
I never completely discount him because sometimes he has some decent info (and I post his tweets here).
But I can't tell you how many times I've read tweets from him and thought, "what a dick."
All of this has been typed by me earlier. I said Leonard and Ranaan suck and create stories. However, I have also said countless times now that if you are going to lie about playcalling duties you'd simply say he took them away or interfered with the playcalling. Why say specific weeks and people? I have said this so many times and I feel it is just being ignored like I never said it. I hate Leonard. He is a piece of shit that is always trying to create issues. However, that doesn't mean he is lying about the playcalling. And, as I have said, I don't care that Daboll took it away if he did. It's his ass on the line. So, when he took it away, that to me was scapegoating but giving it back was also some sort of an apology. As you said, if Daboll wanted him gone then he would have let him go interview for the OC job in Seattle. I think this story is being blown up for multiple reasons. One, Dabool wants to keep everything in house and that actually makes it worse because people are becoming detectives to see whose mouth was moving on certain plays. People were breaking down clips. Two, he doesn't want to show up any coach or player publicly. It does him no favors. It does the team no favors. I have also said that to get to this level of coaching, most coaches have egos. Some are bigger than others. What got them this far is also the same thing that makes them look bad publicly. We really don't need to know all this crap. I think it is a horrible time for sports and more in this world with the instant news. Everything gets blown out of proportion just like negotiations. All I am doing is sifting through what is out there and just stating what I think is the most obvious situation, which was playcalling was taken from him, Kafka wasn't haooy about it because that makes it look like he's the problem, Daboll gave it back, and then Kafka got a promotion to try to smooth things over. Honestly, both have handled this well publicly. This is really only out there because of Wink and his goons. Leonard was first on this aspect of it and I am sure it led to others digging around for more info. That is all. I bet both Daboll and Kafka want this buried and never talked about again. It wouldn't help Kafka to publicly comment on this as it could hurt his chances of getting a HCing job next year.
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In comment 16401798 jhibb said:
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In comment 16401758 robbieballs2003 said:
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And scapegoating doesn't have to be public. When you take playcalling duties away, you are blaming the offensive struggles on him nit getting the job done. I know people want to shit all over the leaks from Wink's guys but there were very specific statements there that lend more credence to this being true than false. They had specific weeks that this occurred. That is scapegoating because it is putting the blame on Kafka as opposed to the HC or GM. And, from the article stating when the playcalling was taken away, the results after that were not good at all. From Daboll's perspective, he probably just wanted to try something different because it wasn't working but from Kafka's side, that is embarrassing and puts the blame on him.
So what if it was embarrassing? Everyone should have been embarrassed by the results of last season, and everyone should take part of the blame. The guy didn't get fired or anything - his direct supervisor reportedly took over one of his roles for a few weeks and then gave it back. That's not the boss blaming him for everything that's gone wrong, it's the boss trying to do his own job better, acknowledging the fact that everything isn't going right and trying some different things to get things moving in the right direction. So man up, try to do your job better, and be part of the improvement process. Same for everyone else.
And I imagine that is what he eventually decided to do, even if at some point or another he felt hurt and wanted to leave.
So the tough guy approach? Playcalling was taken away because Daboll felt someone could do better which didn't happen. Why would Kafka want to stay? He has no connection with Daboll other than this job. Again, this didn't just happen all at once. Kafka probably felt that way and now Daboll seems to be trying to fix the situation by giving him a better title.
It's not a tough guy approach IMO. It's taking some emotion out of a situation where, with incomplete knowledge of how the subjects are communicating, feeling, etc, people on the outside are just throwing in their own emotions and assumptions.
I can make a narrative where Daboll approached Kafka, saying something like, "Mike, you're doing a great job. We know the injuries and player limitations are holding us back, but there's not much we can do about those right now. I have to try something. I love your play designs. What do you think about me taking over play calling for a little bit? If it goes well, we'll talk about what about it is different and work together to get it back in your hands moving forward." And then two or three weeks later, "Well, that didn't go so great. I think we can learn about some things that happened in particular game situations, but yeah, I agree with your arguments about what you would have tried and agree it's better in your hands. Thanks for understanding where I was coming from and that I had to try. Let's get things going and turn things around."
With that kind of discussion and decision-making, as well as how Daboll handled it in the press, why would Kafka be so upset?
And yes, I'd assume that the above is much closer to what happened (if any of the play calling stuff is even true) than what many are picturing in their heads when they read articles like this.
Yeah, that's not coaching. Nobody does that. I'm not being a dick but I am guessing you never coached.
Numerous times this has popped up,each time denied by Daboll.
But it keeps resurfacing, from different “sources” each time.
Kafka was not onlyNOT fired. But blocked.
My guess is something in between happened. Daboll didn’t take over playcalling. He may have provided input. Or Kafka suggested he take over if he thinks he can fix it.
One thing that is very clear is. No matter who called the p,Sys. No matter who took the snaps. The offense was continually bad. That fact may have made Daboll realize, Kafka is not on,y NOT the problem. But ultimately an asset.
Management has rallied the troops to counter the narrative that Daboll is difficult to work for. The team wouldn't have had to block Kafka from a lateral move if Kafka didn't want to go. None of this matter if he wins. If he doesn't, he's going to be out the door.
Didn't Daboll have a history of some sort at his other stops?
"Kick the dog and then pet it."
Matt in SGS posted a clip from the Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick sit down where an old NFL Films clip was shown of Parcells screaming at Belichick, blaming him for some screwup. Parcells said something to the effect of "I don't remember that. It obviously happened. But Bill knew it wasn't personal."
The look on Belichick's face was priceless. I think those things did hurt Belichick. I think it's also pretty clear that Parcells never tried to clear the air with Belichick.
This shit happens all of the time in the ersatz war that the NFL is. It's not a business for the sensitive.
And your criticism here seems to be Daboll is harsh and his attempts to smooth over feelings is bunk.
There has been a lot of smoke about a Daboll/Kafka rift. That it was Wink and his minions who leaked it to the press doesn’t make it false. Personally, I think it is much ado about nothing. The team stunk after being the biggest surprise in the NFL the year prior, it’s no wonder why tensions would run high.
Numerous times this has popped up,each time denied by Daboll.
But it keeps resurfacing, from different “sources” each time.
Kafka was not onlyNOT fired. But blocked.
My guess is something in between happened. Daboll didn’t take over playcalling. He may have provided input. Or Kafka suggested he take over if he thinks he can fix it.
One thing that is very clear is. No matter who called the p,Sys. No matter who took the snaps. The offense was continually bad. That fact may have made Daboll realize, Kafka is not on,y NOT the problem. But ultimately an asset.
Shecky, I don't recall stories in season about the play-calling being taken away. There was fan speculation and calls for the play-calling to be taken away. That's a big difference.
There has been a lot of smoke about a Daboll/Kafka rift. That it was Wink and his minions who leaked it to the press doesn’t make it false. Personally, I think it is much ado about nothing. The team stunk after being the biggest surprise in the NFL the year prior, it’s no wonder why tensions would run high.
Because coordinators only address the media at select times (2-3 times during the offseason) and on Thursday's the week before a game. They never address the media any other time. This is true for all teams.
robbie - having a hard time following your logic. Just who were all these other people calling plays for the offense. The only one I could see is Tierney.
As far as I know, there was some noise about Daboll either thinking of taking over or perhaps really calling some plays. Never, ever did I read anything about other people calling plays.
And sorry, I do dismiss most of the Wink/Leonard narrative.
I'm not saying I believe most of it but this stuff is out there for a reason. Again, when specifics are mentioned, it brings more credence to the side of the story. Daboll is never going to give his side of the story. There is no benefit to him so using Daboll as one side isn't going to help any argument. All we know is that this is still a story. I also found it weird that there were leaks that said, "Some in the Giants organization want Daboll to call plays." Where is that coming from? It isn't coming from Wink and his goons.
How do we know that the "specifics" are real? Because if Leonard is sighting specifics, then why would they be credible, he is not a credible reporter. Yes Ranaan had a similar story, I believe - probably the same "source."
It is still a story because of people bringing it up, not because it is proven true. It makes for juicy stories and click baits. A lie repeated long enough becomes real...
As far as "Giants org people" wanted Daboll to call plays - I never read that anywhere. Doesn't mean I didn't miss it(I may have) either. But WHO are these "org" people. I know at least half of BBI wanted Daboll to call plays.
Still seems like a hit job to me, even if part of it is possibly true.
There has been a lot of smoke about a Daboll/Kafka rift. That it was Wink and his minions who leaked it to the press doesn’t make it false. Personally, I think it is much ado about nothing. The team stunk after being the biggest surprise in the NFL the year prior, it’s no wonder why tensions would run high.
I feel this way too. Since we suck, there will be people trying to find out why. Personnel? Eh, there is always time to get on Schoen. Friction with the staff? That is going to get more clicks. But, as you said, there is still smoke over a month later so people will keep digging. And what do you do as Daboll? Do you deny it? Will that do anything? Why address something if it isn't true. If it is true, wby do you want that out there? Until there is video of Daboll and Kafka together joking around genuinely, then this story will still persist until we start winning.
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robbie - having a hard time following your logic. Just who were all these other people calling plays for the offense. The only one I could see is Tierney.
As far as I know, there was some noise about Daboll either thinking of taking over or perhaps really calling some plays. Never, ever did I read anything about other people calling plays.
And sorry, I do dismiss most of the Wink/Leonard narrative.
I'm not saying I believe most of it but this stuff is out there for a reason. Again, when specifics are mentioned, it brings more credence to the side of the story. Daboll is never going to give his side of the story. There is no benefit to him so using Daboll as one side isn't going to help any argument. All we know is that this is still a story. I also found it weird that there were leaks that said, "Some in the Giants organization want Daboll to call plays." Where is that coming from? It isn't coming from Wink and his goons.
How do we know that the "specifics" are real? Because if Leonard is sighting specifics, then why would they be credible, he is not a credible reporter. Yes Ranaan had a similar story, I believe - probably the same "source."
It is still a story because of people bringing it up, not because it is proven true. It makes for juicy stories and click baits. A lie repeated long enough becomes real...
As far as "Giants org people" wanted Daboll to call plays - I never read that anywhere. Doesn't mean I didn't miss it(I may have) either. But WHO are these "org" people. I know at least half of BBI wanted Daboll to call plays.
Still seems like a hit job to me, even if part of it is possibly true.
It doesn't make them true but it also doesn't make them false. You decipher it how you want. As far as the Daboll thing calling plays, it was tweeted out. This regime has been the best that we've seen at playing the media how they want. They like to see how things will be received just like we see with Jones. The only information our beats have is the information this regime wants them to have. That is why other stories get broken by non-Giants beat writers. So, when they tweet out that there are some within the Giants organization that want Daboll to call plays, it is done with a purpose.
There is no evidence that Daboll took over the play calling in the Arizona game. It became a "thing" during the game because those who believe Kafka was more of an issue than Daniel Jones or the offensive line thought it was the only thing that explained the comeback (sidenote: there are dramatic comebacks in the NFL every freaking weekend).
Daboll was asked about it immediately after the game. He denied it.
Why should we assume he is lying? Based on what evidence?
It doesn't make them true but it also doesn't make them false. You decipher it how you want. As far as the Daboll thing calling plays, it was tweeted out. This regime has been the best that we've seen at playing the media how they want. They like to see how things will be received just like we see with Jones. The only information our beats have is the information this regime wants them to have. That is why other stories get broken by non-Giants beat writers. So, when they tweet out that there are some within the Giants organization that want Daboll to call plays, it is done with a purpose.
Agree, doesn't prove, either way.
As far as tweeted out - again by who? Someone with credibility or one of Hanlon's minions?
I do agree that the Giants keep trial balloons in the closet ready to be floated when required.
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is puzzling. It was widely speculated that Daboll called lays in the 2nd half of the AZ game. Now both Daboll and Kafka denied it, but the conspiracy theorists were all over it. There were entire articles in the Athletic, SI, NY Post, among others.
There is no evidence that Daboll took over the play calling in the Arizona game. It became a "thing" during the game because those who believe Kafka was more of an issue than Daniel Jones or the offensive line thought it was the only thing that explained the comeback (sidenote: there are dramatic comebacks in the NFL every freaking weekend).
Daboll was asked about it immediately after the game. He denied it.
Why should we assume he is lying? Based on what evidence?
It was more than that though. It was him holding the play card and then speaking into the headset with the sheet over his mouth between plays.
Daboll fired a horrible ST coach who everyone wanted fired. Yes he screwed up hiring him in the first place.
Daboll fired a good friend of his in Bobby Johnson who everyone wanted fired. Yes he screwed up hiring him in the first place.
Daboll, an excellent offensive coach, took over playcalling midseason when he thought the unit was underperforming. Daboll publicly denied it so as not to embarrass Kaftka and also possibly to gain a competitive advantage.
Daboll had significant issues with Wink and they in essence fired him. And Wink was not subsequently hired for any NFL defensive coordinator position despite being fired early in the process and being free to go wherever he wanted. And Wink clearly still wants to coach since he’s now a DC in college.
The Wink, Johnson and the ST coach were initial mistakes that he corrected. Daboll has a pretty decent record after 2 years including a playoff win. I agree this last year wasn’t his best and there were a lot of questionable moves. He’s a first time head coach and he’s going to make mistakes. Mistakes which he appears to be correcting some. Can we all just relax and give the guy a chance.
As for the beat reporters. These guys are trash. They suck at their job. They have an angle. They want chaos to get clicks.
Nobody was scapegoated.
Daboll fired a horrible ST coach who everyone wanted fired. Yes he screwed up hiring him in the first place.
Daboll fired a good friend of his in Bobby Johnson who everyone wanted fired. Yes he screwed up hiring him in the first place.
Daboll, an excellent offensive coach, took over playcalling midseason when he thought the unit was underperforming. Daboll publicly denied it so as not to embarrass Kaftka and also possibly to gain a competitive advantage.
Daboll had significant issues with Wink and they in essence fired him. And Wink was not subsequently hired for any NFL defensive coordinator position despite being fired early in the process and being free to go wherever he wanted. And Wink clearly still wants to coach since he’s now a DC in college.
The Wink, Johnson and the ST coach were initial mistakes that he corrected. Daboll has a pretty decent record after 2 years including a playoff win. I agree this last year wasn’t his best and there were a lot of questionable moves. He’s a first time head coach and he’s going to make mistakes. Mistakes which he appears to be correcting some. Can we all just relax and give the guy a chance.
As for the beat reporters. These guys are trash. They suck at their job. They have an angle. They want chaos to get clicks.
Nobody was scapegoated.
In terms of the sequence of events, this is pretty accurate. And this is why I contend, if you want to criticize Daboll, these people are picking the wrong issues.
If this was going on during the entire second half (I don't know if it was or not), then why did it stop? Did you notice this ins games 3-17? I don't recall anyone on this site or in the media pointing it out. I didn't see him doing it.
If this was going on during the entire second half (I don't know if it was or not), then why did it stop? Did you notice this ins games 3-17? I don't recall anyone on this site or in the media pointing it out. I didn't see him doing it.
Honestly, I don't care enough about it. I wasn't looking for it at the time but if he took over in Arizona the 2nd half, that doesn't mean he took it over in the 3rd game. Hell, even the Niners said they prepared as if Daboll was going to call the plays in week 3 based on what they saw in week 2. I am not sure why you are so dismissive of him calling plays. Nobody know for certain one way or another, it is just what we believe with what we have in front of us.
Coaching is not the issue.
Poor drafting and a lack of talent are the issues. We have not made a lot if any progress in those areas.
Schoen needs a good draft. Actually a great draft.
The 2nd Dallas game was also when Daboll was in "deep" discussion with Wink. The poor offense is part of the Wink/Daboll conflict imv.
I am not sure BD's, "I take responsibility" is very genuine and maybe he likes to pass on the blame behind the scenes. Pretty difficult managing poor results without ruffling some feathers imv and it requires very strong leadership to keep things together with the staff. Be interesting to see how this plays out next season.
I’M interested in what goes down going forward!
This coaching staff NOW assembled HAS to do a better job, from the HC on down.
Giving Kafka more organizational responsibilities may make it more possible for Daboll to call plays.
Having Henderson helping the new DC may make the usage of defensive personnel more efficient.
As Eric said, how Dabs handles the QB and OL positions, will have a HUGE bearing on how well 2024 will go. Move forward, rehashing dirt just makes everyone filthier!!
The 2nd Dallas game was also when Daboll was in "deep" discussion with Wink. The poor offense is part of the Wink/Daboll conflict imv.
I am not sure BD's, "I take responsibility" is very genuine and maybe he likes to pass on the blame behind the scenes. Pretty difficult managing poor results without ruffling some feathers imv and it requires very strong leadership to keep things together with the staff. Be interesting to see how this plays out next season.
Perhaps the offense got better because Andrew Thomas was back in the lineup?
Before AT came back, SB really helped. The issue was they had a really hard time scoring points but TOP went way up which helped the D out.
- Unless his hands were tied, signing off on the Daniel Jones contract.
- His soft training camp.
- Not having the OL set well before the start of the season.
- Related to these first two points, the team not being ready for the start of the season.
- Given hindsight, making some wrong hires on the coaching staff.
Things I'm not concerned about with Daboll:
- Ruffling the feathers of any player or coach.
- Unless his hands were tied, signing off on the Daniel Jones contract.
- His soft training camp.
- Not having the OL set well before the start of the season.
- Related to these first two points, the team not being ready for the start of the season.
- Given hindsight, making some wrong hires on the coaching staff.
Things I'm not concerned about with Daboll:
- Ruffling the feathers of any player or coach.
I agree with this. The whole OL situation was beyond weird. The fact that they move Glowinski over to LG, a position he hasn't played in forever if not ever, late in the preseason (was it after week 4?) was insane.
Does anyone interview anymore, and then if given first hand on the record accounts of something give the subject of any accusations chance to respond themselves and be quoted about it?
Many writers may make a living from it and I give them credit for that but it’s not journalism, it’s rumor mongering
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is puzzling. It was widely speculated that Daboll called lays in the 2nd half of the AZ game. Now both Daboll and Kafka denied it, but the conspiracy theorists were all over it. There were entire articles in the Athletic, SI, NY Post, among others.
There is no evidence that Daboll took over the play calling in the Arizona game. It became a "thing" during the game because those who believe Kafka was more of an issue than Daniel Jones or the offensive line thought it was the only thing that explained the comeback (sidenote: there are dramatic comebacks in the NFL every freaking weekend).
Daboll was asked about it immediately after the game. He denied it.
Why should we assume he is lying? Based on what evidence?
I’m not arguing it happened, merely pointing out that it was well reported. I’m not sure Daboll’s denials prove anything, of course he’s going to deny it. I also think it’s much ado about nothing.
Maybe Kafka had some issues with it and entertained the thought of working elsewhere..
and MAYBE two adult men.. sat down.. discussed their issues like MATURE people and agreed they could move forward and work together..
Why is this unfathomable to some people? people can have disagreements and issues and work through them, It happened every freaking day in real like.. why should this be any different..
People just seem to LOVE drama
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In comment 16401758 robbieballs2003 said:
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And scapegoating doesn't have to be public. When you take playcalling duties away, you are blaming the offensive struggles on him nit getting the job done. I know people want to shit all over the leaks from Wink's guys but there were very specific statements there that lend more credence to this being true than false. They had specific weeks that this occurred. That is scapegoating because it is putting the blame on Kafka as opposed to the HC or GM. And, from the article stating when the playcalling was taken away, the results after that were not good at all. From Daboll's perspective, he probably just wanted to try something different because it wasn't working but from Kafka's side, that is embarrassing and puts the blame on him.
If daboll is not publicly making any statements in regards to the play calling or the offensive struggles being on kafka, how is that scapegoating? The media speculated who was calling the plays, but not once did daboll ever confirm that or point fingers.
If they were scapegoating, then why not let him go even for a lateral move? Why promote him and pay him more? If you are scapegoating someone, you would be happy to let them go and continue to point the finger at them.
What is scapegoating? It is putting blame on someone else. That doesn't have to happen in the media. It is going on inside the Giants. If a boss blames one of his employees for his own failure, he has to go to the media to do so? That makes no sense. When you tale the playcalling away from a coordinator, it is scapegoating. You took responsibilities away from an employee for lack of results. Not sure why we are arguing over this. These are proud men in a sport where egos are huge. When you are losing and remove responsibilities from a coach, you are saying they aren't getting the job done.
Scapegoating is blaming someone else for your mistakes. If daboll talked publicly about kafka and the playcalling duties, then that could be scapegoating. If daboll went to schoen or ownership and said it was kafka that was the problem, then that would be scapegoating.
And again, if daboll was scapegoating him, then he would have let him leave even if it was a lateral move. If you are scapegoating someone, you are putting blame on them that they are at fault and would look to replace them. You certainly wouldn't keep him or even promote him if he was being blamed for the faults of the offense.
We saw the humiliation of the Cowboys blocked FG from what they saw on our film from last year
We had Daboll yelling at Jones, right or wrong
We had curious roster decisions like activating Wan Dale when he couldn’t play for 3 weeks, cutting Tyre Phillips only to see him return better and not rostering a legit KR. These moves by and large blew up in our face
We saw a K who was obviously injured play a game in which he was not able and cost us and later in the season a P
We saw us actually not a throw a pass in an entire second half of a game to the point the Stadium chanted “let him throw “. DeVito subsequently proved he could actually pass the football.
We had the Wink-Daboll report from Jay Glazer and the subsequent denials and game ball situation which also proved to be true
We had Xavier McKinney openly criticize the defensive coaching staff and the Wink critisize McKinney and then McKinney reportedly give the next team speech .
We had Daboll say in his post season press conference that he expected Wink back only to immediately fire defensive assistants prompting the Wink to leave fiasco.
We had aspects of the Leonard article confirmed like Schoen listening in to the playcalling and in which games.
Theres probably more but that’s off the top of my head. The perception of chaos is coming from what we saw on the field this year and seems to now to be most explainable by the behind the scenes reports with the coaching staff problems.
This team did not give the slightest inclination that they were well coached and well prepared for this season in any capacity and that is why all this gets taken seriously whether true or not.
If anything, fans were getting pissed around here that the team was still holding together and competitive in the last six weeks, "ruining" our draft position.
The only chaos was the Wink drama and they successfully downplayed that until the Wilkins brothers were fired after the press conference.
I think Daboll blamed Kafka for the poor results and took that responsibility away from him.
Two beat writers have now reported Daboll took play calling from Kafka. Say what you will about Leonard, but Hughes is a good and reliable reporter.
I find it very believable that created tension and Kafka was open to leaving. Who wouldn't feel that way if their boss took away a big part of their job?
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In comment 16401791 TrueBlue56 said:
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In comment 16401758 robbieballs2003 said:
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And scapegoating doesn't have to be public. When you take playcalling duties away, you are blaming the offensive struggles on him nit getting the job done. I know people want to shit all over the leaks from Wink's guys but there were very specific statements there that lend more credence to this being true than false. They had specific weeks that this occurred. That is scapegoating because it is putting the blame on Kafka as opposed to the HC or GM. And, from the article stating when the playcalling was taken away, the results after that were not good at all. From Daboll's perspective, he probably just wanted to try something different because it wasn't working but from Kafka's side, that is embarrassing and puts the blame on him.
If daboll is not publicly making any statements in regards to the play calling or the offensive struggles being on kafka, how is that scapegoating? The media speculated who was calling the plays, but not once did daboll ever confirm that or point fingers.
If they were scapegoating, then why not let him go even for a lateral move? Why promote him and pay him more? If you are scapegoating someone, you would be happy to let them go and continue to point the finger at them.
What is scapegoating? It is putting blame on someone else. That doesn't have to happen in the media. It is going on inside the Giants. If a boss blames one of his employees for his own failure, he has to go to the media to do so? That makes no sense. When you tale the playcalling away from a coordinator, it is scapegoating. You took responsibilities away from an employee for lack of results. Not sure why we are arguing over this. These are proud men in a sport where egos are huge. When you are losing and remove responsibilities from a coach, you are saying they aren't getting the job done.
Scapegoating is blaming someone else for your mistakes. If daboll talked publicly about kafka and the playcalling duties, then that could be scapegoating. If daboll went to schoen or ownership and said it was kafka that was the problem, then that would be scapegoating.
And again, if daboll was scapegoating him, then he would have let him leave even if it was a lateral move. If you are scapegoating someone, you are putting blame on them that they are at fault and would look to replace them. You certainly wouldn't keep him or even promote him if he was being blamed for the faults of the offense.
I don't know if you aren't reading or just jumping into the conversation and are missing what was being said. Nobody is saying he is made the scapegoat NOW. However, whenever you take responsibilities away from your employees, you are saying they are the problem. Things change from week to week. If playcalling was taken away from him, then he was a scaoegoat. If playcalling was given back, then things changed. Why is that hard to understand? It isn't a linear situation.
I think Daboll blamed Kafka for the poor results and took that responsibility away from him.
Two beat writers have now reported Daboll took play calling from Kafka. Say what you will about Leonard, but Hughes is a good and reliable reporter.
I find it very believable that created tension and Kafka was open to leaving. Who wouldn't feel that way if their boss took away a big part of their job?
This is all possible.
And if true, I'm not sure it is all that big a deal unless you are enamored with Kafka and never want to see him leave.
HOWEVER, I still find it strange that Schwartz, Duggan, Raanan, Stapleton, Rock, etc. never reported this. And Connor only mentions it in passing in mid-February, a month and a half after the season ended.
Hypothetical: let's say Daboll did take over play calls in the 2nd half against Arizona. Kafka was failing, and Daboll stepped up and crushed it.
Is Kafka the scapegoat in that situation or is he the problem?
Sure, there was probably tension between Kafka and Daboll with the shit season but they seemed to handle it like men should. Wink and his minions showed their character and the league has passed judgement. Kafka is still being pursued and got a promotion for acting like a man in public.
I like our DC hire but we need to see some development on the offensive side of the ball this year.
HOWEVER, I still find it strange that Schwartz, Duggan, Raanan, Stapleton, Rock, etc. never reported this. And Connor only mentions it in passing in mid-February, a month and a half after the season ended.
I wonder if your first sentence might explain the second. Just a guess.
Coaching is not the issue.
Poor drafting and a lack of talent are the issues. We have not made a lot if any progress in those areas.
Schoen needs a good draft. Actually a great draft.
Coaching is questionable when your team isn’t prepared on opening day against a division rival. Total embarrassment to be shut out. That is on Dabol.
Wink leaves in a manner I've never witnessed in professional sports. McGhaughey fired. Reports about Daboll being terrible to work with. And now Kafka (reportedly) wanting out but the Giants forcing him to stay. (Awkward situation, anyone?)
Hopefully I'm wrong and we're on the cusp of a great season, but all the sights and sounds of dysfunction are still there.
Wink leaves in a manner I've never witnessed in professional sports. McGhaughey fired. Reports about Daboll being terrible to work with. And now Kafka (reportedly) wanting out but the Giants forcing him to stay. (Awkward situation, anyone?)
Hopefully I'm wrong and we're on the cusp of a great season, but all the sights and sounds of dysfunction are still there.
This is just spin.
Are you saying you wanted to retain McGaughey? I could have sworn you were one of the posters who wanted him let go? So are you now saying it would have been better to keep him?
You not-so-curiously also leave out Wink's odd departure from the Ravens.
So what does that leave you with?
this team needs to move on from barkley.
3 seperate times we had the ability too and we did not i suspect the coaching staff pushed against it.
this in large part led to the contact of daniel jones.
if we just let barkley test teh market we could have tagged jones and be done with it and we would no longer have a "daniel jones" problem.
this team needs to move on from barkley.
3 seperate times we had the ability too and we did not i suspect the coaching staff pushed against it.
this in large part led to the contact of daniel jones.
if we just let barkley test teh market we could have tagged jones and be done with it and we would no longer have a "daniel jones" problem.
This is all pure speculation.
This could have been Schoen, who is Daboll's boss. Or it could have been Mara, who is Schoen's boss.
It's not helpful to post speculative stuff like this when the decision to keep Barkley did not rest with one man.
Unless a miracle happens, we're going to be starting all over again next year.
We've become the Commanders.
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and it just feels like the Ringling Brothers Circus continuing its tour.
Wink leaves in a manner I've never witnessed in professional sports. McGhaughey fired. Reports about Daboll being terrible to work with. And now Kafka (reportedly) wanting out but the Giants forcing him to stay. (Awkward situation, anyone?)
Hopefully I'm wrong and we're on the cusp of a great season, but all the sights and sounds of dysfunction are still there.
This is just spin.
Are you saying you wanted to retain McGaughey? I could have sworn you were one of the posters who wanted him let go? So are you now saying it would have been better to keep him?
You not-so-curiously also leave out Wink's odd departure from the Ravens.
So what does that leave you with?
It leaves you with an organization that continues to not do anything effectively. This all aligns perfectly with the overall trend we've seen since 2012. Business as usual.
I actually have a little bit of hope left Daboll can turns things around this year. But this is a HUGE draft. Bisignano mentioned on the Giants Insider podcast this week, how big of a draft this is for Schoen. "He needs a Detroit Lions draft."
For those that don't follow that, the Lions got Jahmyr Gibbs, Brian Branch & Jack Campbell last year and they were all studs.
#6 overall and 2 2nd rounders. Need 3 impact players. Daboll should be on the hot seat but it isn't all his fault either - this roster hasn't made significant strides in 2 years under Schoen, and his drafts have underwhelmed.
If anything, fans were getting pissed around here that the team was still holding together and competitive in the last six weeks, "ruining" our draft position.
The only chaos was the Wink drama and they successfully downplayed that until the Wilkins brothers were fired after the press conference.
Eric, the Giants are worse than the Commanders. They have the 3rd worst record in NFL the last 5 years and bottom 5 record in NFL last 10 years.
Oh yes lets not forget the back and forth with Jones/Daboll over the neck injury. Daboll on a Friday, saying he is hoping Jones can play, the odd reports on a Saturday over Jones getting ruled out and then the following week ruling out Jones very early in week and Daboll seemingly irritated about it.
- Unless his hands were tied, signing off on the Daniel Jones contract.
- His soft training camp.
- Not having the OL set well before the start of the season.
- Related to these first two points, the team not being ready for the start of the season.
- Given hindsight, making some wrong hires on the coaching staff.
Things I'm not concerned about with Daboll:
- Ruffling the feathers of any player or coach.
This is a non story. If Kafka's ego can't handle the HC temporarily taking over the duties when things aren't working, just like Wink's ego couldn't the HC getting involved in his side of the ball, then maybe he should leave. This is a results driven business. Ultimately, if Daboll doesn't get the results then it's his job on the line. I guess maybe people think everything was wonderful on the offensive side this season? I don't know what world you'd have to be living in to think that.
Unless a miracle happens, we're going to be starting all over again next year.
We've become the Commanders.
Not sure they could repeat that if they tried.
One thing seems certain, Daboll never publicly acknowledged he or anyone else took over play calling. There is always collaboration between the booth and sidelines as plays are being called.
Wink and his cohorts needed additional examples of Daboll’s bad behavior to justify their actions.
Connor isn’t as ass like Leonard and Raanan but he still needs clicks now and then.
Non story now IMHO.
Daboll is a fiery, chippy guy. I don't think there's anything inherently good or bad about his style. Like any other coach or leader, he needs to deploy different skills at different times to get the best out of his people. I tend to believe he's capable of it. He seemed like he was hitting all the right buttons in 2022.
This offseason reminds me so much of 2006. In a 4-week span, Coughlin dumped all 3 coordinators. The press, fans, and former players were all over him about his coaching style and winning 3 fewer games than the previous year.
We all know what Coughlin achieved the next year. And while I don't expect the Giants to compete for a championship, I do expect them to be much better. If not, Daboll deserves to go.
But if these types of things were surfacing, he needs to be self-aware and fix it. Because he's the leader and that's what leaders do. So, we'll see what Daboll is made of...
The bigger problem is Joe Schoen.
Unless a miracle happens, we're going to be starting all over again next year.
We've become the Commanders.
I can only speak for myself, but I haven't turned on Daboll. There were, however, some things that need fixing for next year, like the powder puff training camp, curious personnel moves (no legit kick returner for one), etc. All phases of the team sucked pretty badly at times, so the last thing I'm concerned with is coaches or players being butt hurt for being called out. Don't like it? Play better, coach better. We could pretty much count on 1 hand the number of players or coaches that don't deserve to be called out for the debacle last year!
First, the game ball thing is not just like taking play calling away fromn Kafka. Nor is it like giving Kafka a promotion. Second, Daboll gave play calling duties "to others?" Who?Was there a committee?
It's possible, don't you think, that, despite some of the internal shit that happened during the season, Daboll still wants Kafka on his staff, still appreciates his ability as an OC and that's the reason for the promotion? Seems to me if Daboll didn't want Kafka on the staff and as OC, he would have fired him and/or the Giants wouldn't have blocked him from interviewing for a lateral move.
The bigger problem is Joe Schoen.[/quote]
Yup. Huge year for that character. He's got to fix the QB mess, the o-line mess, the d-line glut, and the Barkley situation.
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With that o line and the qb situation no one was going to have a good offense.
Coaching is not the issue.
Poor drafting and a lack of talent are the issues. We have not made a lot if any progress in those areas.
Schoen needs a good draft. Actually a great draft.
Coaching is questionable when your team isn’t prepared on opening day against a division rival. Total embarrassment to be shut out. That is on Dabol.
My comment was specifically about the offense. I have been very critical of Daboll not having the team ready for the start of the season.
I don't believe they get a pick for him if its a lateral move.
What the definition of scapegoat is.
Also, ZERO chance that Brian Daboll took away play calling from Kafka and gave them them to some mystery offensive coach. Fucking zero percent. If he took them away at any point in time, he called the plays himself.
What is the difference between a team with a bad roster with bad QB play and bad coaching and a team with a bad roster and bad QB play and terrific coaching?
You lose by a little less.
You cannot win with a bad roster and bad QB play. It's always about the players first. And. Bad coach will win with great players and great
QB play. Did Bill Parcells forget how to coach in 1993 when he went to New England and the Pats went 5-11?
Chip Kelly, conversely, is a bad NFL head coach who went 10-6 in his first two years in Philly because of a talented roster and competent QB play. I don't believe Ben McAdoo was a great head coach in 2016 and a bad head coach in 2017. I think he was a bad head coach both years that benefitted from a terrific defense, competent QB play and OBJ in 2016.
I'm not saying coaching doesn't matter, it clearly does. The Steelers shouldn't have won 10 games, Tomlin got the most out of that team, like he always does.
And the Giants shouldn't have won 6 games this year, either. So no matter what you think about Daboll, I think this team overachieved both Daboll years based on the talent.
Nobody likes losing, but I believe if you give Daboll a good QB and this team will be in the playoffs again. A great QB and we can be competing with the Chiefs for Super Bowls.
2. What does it mean to "call plays"? I've never understood this obsession. If the OC "suggests" a play, and then the HC changes it, who is "calling the play"? I know the Fasell/Payton history, but I've always thought that except in those rare cases where the HC makes it known, this is an overblown concept and there's probably a lot of voices discussing plays. Scripting first few plays/drives, calling 4th-and-1, etc. It's probably not a committee, but also probably not a dictator, either. Buck has to stop with the HC in everything, and it's probably silly to think an offensive-minded head coach like Daboll isn't involved in "calling plays" (again, whatever the heck that even means).