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| Art Stapleton @art_stapleton The easy thing is to just keep people on the hot seat, keep firing them when they don’t win and it’s a vicious cycle that has engulfed this entire franchise going on 13 years and counting. Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll don’t belong on the hot seat right now. Yes, there’s pressure to succeed and make smart decisions this year. They are accountable and on the clock. But barring a total disaster, this should not be a make or break season. Let it play out, see where they are and assess at the end of 2024. The perception is what it is, but I’m not falling for the banana in the tail pipe. |
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| Art Stapleton @art_stapleton Giants have poisoned their own fan base and parts of their organization with all the bad decisions and losing that they’ve done for a decade. It’s such a warped sense of reality that in two years, one year that was praised, unbelievably across the league. Two years ago, the Giants hired one of the best candidates on the market for both their GM and head coaching jobs. Sooner or later, they’re going to have to let talented people work through mistakes, shortcomings, and overall incompetence that lingers from previous failed regimes. Get off the carousel, wake up and have some patience to see if they’re going to fail because of who they are, if they’re going to succeed because who they are and not because of what came before them. |
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Art Stapleton @art_stapleton The meddling stuff is folly. Fans want Mara to meddle when he doesn't, and if he doesn't, he gets ripped for not stepping in and meddling. He's the owner. He stays out of the way, but he's involved. He's not an ivory tower guy. Fans have seen him waiting in parking garages for his car at Town Hall. He flies commercial. As with any owner, there are good decisions and bad decisions, and Mara owns all of them - he signs off on it all, either verbally or just allowing it to happen. After Jerry Reese, Mara wanted a GM to be the voice for the football ops. Reese was not that guy. Thought he had that with Gettleman, and obviously we saw how that turned out. There's a reason why Mara has stepped into the background: he wants the GM to be the face. That's Joe Schoen. Mara will talk on league matters and give an occasional State of the Giants, but those are more rare because he would rather Schoen be that representative for the organization. |
All the way back in September, BBI's brightest wrote:
BBI - ( New Window )
All the way back in September, BBI's brightest wrote:
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But the only major move to upgrade weapons was trading for Waller, an over 30 frequently injured tight end. Our two best weapons are two guys who are injury-prone (and the other--Barkley--is likely to take a step back from 2022).
BBI - ( New Window )
it wasn't far off and both ended up costing them 3rd round picks.
golladay year 1 - 14g, 37 rec 521, 0 td, 14.1 ypc
waller year 1 - 12g, 52 rec 552 yds, 1 td, 10 ypc
i was fine with the waller gamble but as it turned out there were better options in similar price range. hopkins as it turns out would have saved them a draft pick if they'd been more patient.
outside of okereke they have not done a great job spending $.
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Waller was a high probability bet to miss a handful of games, it was sort of the cost of doing business. Waller was the right move for a team in the Giants position. A surprising playoff team bereft of weapons and in need if them to see if they could: a) take another step b) see if the QB could improve as a passer with better surroundings. It was not a $20 million AAV gamble on broken down Kenny Golladay.
All the way back in September, BBI's brightest wrote:
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But the only major move to upgrade weapons was trading for Waller, an over 30 frequently injured tight end. Our two best weapons are two guys who are injury-prone (and the other--Barkley--is likely to take a step back from 2022).
BBI - ( New Window )
it wasn't far off and both ended up costing them 3rd round picks.
golladay year 1 - 14g, 37 rec 521, 0 td, 14.1 ypc
waller year 1 - 12g, 52 rec 552 yds, 1 td, 10 ypc
i was fine with the waller gamble but as it turned out there were better options in similar price range. hopkins as it turns out would have saved them a draft pick if they'd been more patient.
outside of okereke they have not done a great job spending $.
Extending Dex and Thomas wasn’t a good job of spending money?
Okereke was the only high priced FA they have signed to date
And yes….the Jones is extension was a mistake
But is it not a good use of money?
The flip side to that is the Jones contract which deserves criticism
Also….i would say they haven’t been overly aggressive in the FA market as Okereke has been their only big signing to date
You do at 1925 NY Giants Drive
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When someone tries to tell you who they are, believe them.
You think the Giants believe his prior, healed injuries foretell his future availibilty?
Of course it does. Why the hell wouldn’t it? The guy gets injured far too often. Hoping and praying it doesn’t happen in the future is a fools errand. The Giants also ignore Wallers injury history. How’d that work out?
You think the Giants believe his prior, healed injuries foretell his future availibilty?
Of course it does. Why the hell wouldn’t it? The guy gets injured far too often. Hoping and praying it doesn’t happen in the future is a fools errand. The Giants also ignore Wallers injury history. How’d that work out?
It appears Waller has a nerve injury that they missed, and is a potentially chronic issue.
Do you believe Jones has any potentially chronic issues that are likely to return or diminish his ability to play?
This is Schoen's first real chance as GM to bring in a legitimate QB via the draft. I think it would be very foolish to not take advantage of it. It's why I'll be increasingly shocked if the Giants do not draft a QB within the top 40 picks.
Extending Dex and Thomas wasn’t a good job of spending money?
Okereke was the only high priced FA they have signed to date
And yes….the Jones is extension was a mistake
i was talking about external additions. glowinski was their biggest move in 2022, waller and okereke their 2 big ones in 2023. 1 out of 3 is not ideal.
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When someone tries to tell you who they are, believe them.
You think the Giants believe his prior, healed injuries foretell his future availibilty?
Of course it does. Why the hell wouldn’t it? The guy gets injured far too often. Hoping and praying it doesn’t happen in the future is a fools errand. The Giants also ignore Wallers injury history. How’d that work out?
It appears Waller has a nerve injury that they missed, and is a potentially chronic issue.
Do you believe Jones has any potentially chronic issues that are likely to return or diminish his ability to play?
I believe he’s unavailable far too often and they would be idiots to just assume that he’s miraculously going to be less injured as he gets older.
I also find it unbelievable that you apparently have that same assuming/hoping/wishing/praying mindset as well. You deserve this team trotting Jones out again and then you and the team can act all shocked when he’s missing time due to injury. Absolutely incredible…
Yes and no
There were serious cap issues before JS took over
With some restructures we could have around 40 million for this year….which is fine
Yes….DJ’s contract messed things up a bit, but hopefully next year when he is gone…the cap numbers can be manipulated enough to add more talent via FA
I just don't believe in the hocus pocus injury proneness thing. There are injuries that are chronic or create a susceptibility for further injury, and then injuries that heal and don't present further risk.
Unless Jones has something that falls into the former category, I think it's a little silly to think the Giants are worried about this health.
Now just to be clear, I don't know. I am just basing this on the information available. Maybe they are concerned about something longterm.
I wouldn't say Schoen ignored Waller's medical history.
But it definitely seemed like say an acquisition of hope and fingers crossed.
And talk about the illusion created by preseason. In the lone game Jones played, he and Waller looked unstoppable.
But then the real games started...
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Extending Dex and Thomas wasn’t a good job of spending money?
Okereke was the only high priced FA they have signed to date
And yes….the Jones is extension was a mistake
i was talking about external additions. glowinski was their biggest move in 2022, waller and okereke their 2 big ones in 2023. 1 out of 3 is not ideal.
Cool….i get that….bur Waller was a trade and I don’t think anyone at the time had an issue with it….
Glow was a stop gap and he’s gone very soon
Would hope to spend on an OG this off season
I just don't believe in the hocus pocus injury proneness thing. There are injuries that are chronic or create a susceptibility for further injury, and then injuries that heal and don't present further risk.
Unless Jones has something that falls into the former category, I think it's a little silly to think the Giants are worried about this health.
Now just to be clear, I don't know. I am just basing this on the information available. Maybe they are concerned about something longterm.
This is unscientific but I think there are guys who are just injury prone and bound to miss a few games. Jones strikes me as that type.
I think he runs a little reckless sometimes, too, which is a contributing factor--especially when he's struggling.
You think the Giants believe his prior, healed injuries foretell his future availibilty?
Of course it does. Why the hell wouldn’t it? The guy gets injured far too often. Hoping and praying it doesn’t happen in the future is a fools errand. The Giants also ignore Wallers injury history. How’d that work out?
It appears Waller has a nerve injury that they missed, and is a potentially chronic issue.
Do you believe Jones has any potentially chronic issues that are likely to return or diminish his ability to play?
I believe he’s unavailable far too often and they would be idiots to just assume that he’s miraculously going to be less injured as he gets older.
I also find it unbelievable that you apparently have that same assuming/hoping/wishing/praying mindset as well. You deserve this team trotting Jones out again and then you and the team can act all shocked when he’s missing time due to injury. Absolutely incredible…
Like i've posted to you and Sean repeatedly on this topic -- I am trying to put myself in Schoen's shoes and make an educated guess on what he might do.
If Jones doesn't have the variety of injury that causes a longterm risk or propensity for recurrence, I don't think it's something his factoring heavily.
I don't think a sprained ankle or hamstring injury several years ago is a major factor in determining whether the Giants should effectively give up on Jones.
I think he runs a little reckless sometimes, too, which is a contributing factor--especially when he's struggling.
I think I have a black cat and a broom you'd be interested in = )
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Because they royally screwed the cap
Yes and no
There were serious cap issues before JS took over
With some restructures we could have around 40 million for this year….which is fine
Yes….DJ’s contract messed things up a bit, but hopefully next year when he is gone…the cap numbers can be manipulated enough to add more talent via FA
It’s not yes and no. They were hamstrung by the salary cap the last two offseason. That’s why they haven’t been overly aggressive
One of the few times we disagree. Schoen has made a number of big commitments - Jones, Thomas, Lawrence, Okereke, and Waller. This isn't a guy operating with his hands tied.
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It’s not yes and no. They were hamstrung by the salary cap the last two offseason. That’s why they haven’t been overly aggressive
One of the few times we disagree. Schoen has made a number of big commitments - Jones, Thomas, Lawrence, Okereke, and Waller. This isn't a guy operating with his hands tied.
Three of those moves opened up more cap space though. Waller only had a $4 million cap hit in 2023
Jones will need to play well enough to legitimately earn the starting job and get 2025 here. I believe both Schoen & Daboll know they need a much deeper QB room and a more durable one as well.
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This is unscientific but I think there are guys who are just injury prone and bound to miss a few games. Jones strikes me as that type.
I think he runs a little reckless sometimes, too, which is a contributing factor--especially when he's struggling.
I think I have a black cat and a broom you'd be interested in = )
Haha!
I prefer dogs, though...
I don't have a good analytical framework for thinking about injuries. You can make the same argument I just made about Joe Burrow.
One of the few times we disagree. Schoen has made a number of big commitments - Jones, Thomas, Lawrence, Okereke, and Waller. This isn't a guy operating with his hands tied.
Three of those moves opened up more cap space though. Waller only had a $4 million cap hit in 2023
What I mean is that measuring the degree of aggressiveness in spending isn't a 1-year view. We both know teams build their roster on a 3-4 year accounting horizon.
Schoen has committed big money, in guarantees and overall.
I think the perception he hasn't spent stems from the fact a lot of the money was given to current players, and not big splash UFAs.
I think he runs a little reckless sometimes, too, which is a contributing factor--especially when he's struggling.
I think I have a black cat and a broom you'd be interested in = )
Haha!
I prefer dogs, though...
I don't have a good analytical framework for thinking about injuries. You can make the same argument I just made about Joe Burrow.
One thing I agree with in your previous post is the propensity to play recklessly. If memory serves me right, he jammed up hi hamstring, got the concussion, and hurt his neck the first time in plays where he could have just committed to sliding.
But the 2023 injuries were not fault of his at all. He hurt his neck on a play where the defender blew the doors off the left tackle so badly, he literally cried afterwards.
The torn ACL came on a play where the guard got beat so badly, the tight end who tried to help made the tackle.
It makes me itchy to be defending Jones, but that shit last year was not on him.
golladay got paid $40m for 2 seasons (and that's how much $ hit the nyg cap in total).
waller got about $14m year 1 cash.
year 2 is another 10.5m salary + 1.5m worth of bonus incentives.
the golladay contract was worse but i dont think the ball parks are all that different. waller played poorly enough that it's a real question whether or not it's worth cutting him to save $6.7m in 2024.
The torn ACL came on a play where the guard got beat so badly, the tight end who tried to help made the tackle.
It makes me itchy to be defending Jones, but that shit last year was not on him.
Not what happened, and since I've devoted some time to the play, I'll elaborate.
Watch the right guard, Bredeson, on the play; he blocks the DT and does all he can practically be expected to do on the play.
Crosby, who brought the pressure, is an end; he lined up facing the RT, Neal, and a potential double team from the right TE, Cager.
Crosby left them both by giving up his edge and doing a looping stunt up the center gap. Bellinger, the other TE, who had lined up in the backfield, had a chance to block Crosby, but ran past him to get into a route.
Crosby's stunt took enough time that Jones had a chance to hit the open Bellinger over the middle. But he hesitated, passed it up, and Crosby was on him.
Because Crosby had abandoned his edge, Jones had a second chance to make something happen rolling to his right, but he was contained by Cager, who, understandably, was trying to be helpful by picking off Crosby.
No one person in the Giants' blocking scheme can be blamed for the outcome on that play. Not every play will go to script and good QBs make positive things happen.
youtube - ( New Window )
The Waller acquisition looks all kinds of bad right now.
Does it though? They got him for relatively nothing and have no long term tie to him.
That was the whole reason we liked the move in the first place. So if he gets hurt, you rinse your hands of it and move on.
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This is unscientific but I think there are guys who are just injury prone and bound to miss a few games. Jones strikes me as that type.
I think he runs a little reckless sometimes, too, which is a contributing factor--especially when he's struggling.
I think I have a black cat and a broom you'd be interested in = )
Haha!
I prefer dogs, though...
I don't have a good analytical framework for thinking about injuries. You can make the same argument I just made about Joe Burrow.
One thing I agree with in your previous post is the propensity to play recklessly. If memory serves me right, he jammed up hi hamstring, got the concussion, and hurt his neck the first time in plays where he could have just committed to sliding.
But the 2023 injuries were not fault of his at all. He hurt his neck on a play where the defender blew the doors off the left tackle so badly, he literally cried afterwards.
The torn ACL came on a play where the guard got beat so badly, the tight end who tried to help made the tackle.
It makes me itchy to be defending Jones, but that shit last year was not on him.
Well the terrible start to the season was just as much on him as the OL, so I’ll assume you’re solely speaking to the injuries occurrences?
The Vegas injury was a freak play and sequence to a degree but Jones looked totally unprepared to play both mentally and physically throwing the ball.
JMS or Bredeson likely blew the responsibility on the stunt, but regardless Bredeson got his doors blown off.
From the 22 video you can see Bredeson nearly get lifted off his feet.
Does it though? They got him for relatively nothing and have no long term tie to him.
That was the whole reason we liked the move in the first place. So if he gets hurt, you rinse your hands of it and move on.
They traded a top 100 pick and gave him $12.1M, for what amounted to a very pedestrian season. I wouldn't call that relatively nothing.
Well the terrible start to the season was just as much on him as the OL, so I’ll assume you’re solely speaking to the injuries occurrences?
The Vegas injury was a freak play and sequence to a degree but Jones looked totally unprepared to play both mentally and physically throwing the ball.
Just to be clear, I want the Giants to replace Jones yesterday. I'm simply trying to put myself in the shoes of the GM who did in fact sign him to a multi-year deal.
I doubt Schoen assigns blame for the two injuries to Jones. The Van Ginkel sack came on ridiculously fast. The Crosby sack is the product of Bredeson getting picked up and pushed into the pocket.
On the Van Ginkel sack Jones had no opportunity to get rid of the ball, on the Crosby sack he did. But neither is a play where Jones was sitting back there recklessly.
The reason the move was celebrated at the time, and I mean by analysts who cover the sport, not fans, was because it wasn't a lot to give up for a productive player when healthy. The caveat was always health and we knew that on the front end.
It might still not work out, but you traded the Toney pick for him.
Changing perspectives on the trade now because of dissatisfaction and turning it into some blunder of a move isn't honest. Everyone knew he was an injury risk.
The reason the move was celebrated at the time, and I mean by analysts who cover the sport, not fans, was because it wasn't a lot to give up for a productive player when healthy. The caveat was always health and we knew that on the front end.
It might still not work out, but you traded the Toney pick for him.
Changing perspectives on the trade now because of dissatisfaction and turning it into some blunder of a move isn't honest. Everyone knew he was an injury risk.
Schoen restructured his 2023 salary into a restructure bonus, which is what created the deferred money and the remaining dollars to account for. I'm not concerned about the dead money if he's cut, that's included in the 12.1M I quoted.
All I'm saying is he paid him top 10ish money for one year (so far), and gave up a top 100 pick. That's simply not nothing.
Half this site went apoplectic (me included) when Gettleman signed Kyle Rudolph with a known injury, and that cost no picks and 7M.
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It makes me itchy to be defending Jones, but that shit last year was not on him.
Well the terrible start to the season was just as much on him as the OL, so I’ll assume you’re solely speaking to the injuries occurrences?
The Vegas injury was a freak play and sequence to a degree but Jones looked totally unprepared to play both mentally and physically throwing the ball.
Just to be clear, I want the Giants to replace Jones yesterday. I'm simply trying to put myself in the shoes of the GM who did in fact sign him to a multi-year deal.
I doubt Schoen assigns blame for the two injuries to Jones. The Van Ginkel sack came on ridiculously fast. The Crosby sack is the product of Bredeson getting picked up and pushed into the pocket.
On the Van Ginkel sack Jones had no opportunity to get rid of the ball, on the Crosby sack he did. But neither is a play where Jones was sitting back there recklessly.
Oh in no way do I blame Jones for those injuries. It’s football. But Schoen has to factor the incidence of those injuries, the excessive cost/per capita importance of the position, and going forward in figuring out a new calculus.
You think the Giants had a decent line in 2022?
Your multi-dimensional ability to be wrong is astounding.
His first neck injury was from head butting a tackler in the open field. His 2019 ankle injury came at the bottom of the pile after running for a first down. Joe exactly are those the olines fault?
Oh in no way do I blame Jones for those injuries. It’s football. But Schoen has to factor the incidence of those injuries, the excessive cost/per capita importance of the position, and going forward in figuring out a new calculus.
I think there are two independent calculations.
1) What's the general likelihood of a quarterback getting hurt behind a line that allows the most fast pressures in the league? I'd imagine it's appreciably higher than say if that line gave up the average amount.
2) What's the general likelihood of Daniel Jones playing 17 games and producing in the top 3rd of the counting and efficiency stats *if* the line achieves the above?
I'd imagine when weighing both those factors, the logical outcome is improve the line and replace the quarterback.
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On the Van Ginkel sack Jones had no opportunity to get rid of the ball, on the Crosby sack he did. But neither is a play where Jones was sitting back there recklessly.
Oh in no way do I blame Jones for those injuries. It’s football. But Schoen has to factor the incidence of those injuries, the excessive cost/per capita importance of the position, and going forward in figuring out a new calculus.
I think there are two independent calculations.
1) What's the general likelihood of a quarterback getting hurt behind a line that allows the most fast pressures in the league? I'd imagine it's appreciably higher than say if that line gave up the average amount.
2) What's the general likelihood of Daniel Jones playing 17 games and producing in the top 3rd of the counting and efficiency stats *if* the line achieves the above?
I'd imagine when weighing both those factors, the logical outcome is improve the line and replace the quarterback.
Yes and this where I think the 2024 pivot point presents that.
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Ten tight ends in the NFL make 10 million a year or more, including Waller. There's also an out from the deal in 24 that they can exit with 7m in dead cap. Again, not a major commitment.
The reason the move was celebrated at the time, and I mean by analysts who cover the sport, not fans, was because it wasn't a lot to give up for a productive player when healthy. The caveat was always health and we knew that on the front end.
It might still not work out, but you traded the Toney pick for him.
Changing perspectives on the trade now because of dissatisfaction and turning it into some blunder of a move isn't honest. Everyone knew he was an injury risk.
Schoen restructured his 2023 salary into a restructure bonus, which is what created the deferred money and the remaining dollars to account for. I'm not concerned about the dead money if he's cut, that's included in the 12.1M I quoted.
All I'm saying is he paid him top 10ish money for one year (so far), and gave up a top 100 pick. That's simply not nothing.
Half this site went apoplectic (me included) when Gettleman signed Kyle Rudolph with a known injury, and that cost no picks and 7M.
That's why I said *relatively nothing*.
Regarding Kyle Rudolph, it was really, really evident he was a washed up player when they signed him. He hadn't done anything in four years.
I think Jones has a fatal flaw, which is the speed at which he makes the right decision. And the only way to adjust for that is a really good line and a really good run game.
If you're going to go chase a really good line and a really good run game, you should also go chase a really good QB while you're at it.
That's why I said *relatively nothing*.
Regarding Kyle Rudolph, it was really, really evident he was a washed up player when they signed him. He hadn't done anything in four years.
OK, so now that Darren Waller hasn't done anything for 3 years, how do you feel about the prospect of paying him 11.75M in New cash this year?
JMS or Bredeson likely blew the responsibility on the stunt, but regardless Bredeson got his doors blown off.
From the 22 video you can see Bredeson nearly get lifted off his feet.
I'll let the board judge. Bredeson takes on a strong bull rush and prevents his guy from getting to the QB. I suspect PFF gave him a good grade for the play. But I don't have their notes.
Bellinger is the one who had the chance to make the block. Also the one who had the chance to catch the pass Jones couldn't pull the trigger on.
The issue last year was the start of the season. Tough schedule combined with historically bad OL play (and poor QB play as well). Daboll righted the ship.
IMO Schoen needs to nail this draft. It’s been a mixed bag so far, though I do think he’s found better value on day 3 and waiver wire then what we’ve seen in the last decade plus. Belton, McFadden, Bellinger, Pinnock, + Riley and Hawkins I still think have a shot to develop.
This is why I think they do all they can to get a QB this draft, it buys them at least a year. If you look at the top 5 picks, AZ and LAC are not taking QB’s, so it comes down to what NE does. If Kraft wants to win now, and he’ll be 83 on opening day, it’s not a stretch to think they’ll make a run at Kirk Cousins. I don’t see any of the other FA QB’s moving the needle enough, but Cousins could make NE a playoff team, especially throwing to MH Jr.