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| Art Stapleton @art_stapleton The easy thing is to just keep people on the hot seat, keep firing them when they don’t win and it’s a vicious cycle that has engulfed this entire franchise going on 13 years and counting. Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll don’t belong on the hot seat right now. Yes, there’s pressure to succeed and make smart decisions this year. They are accountable and on the clock. But barring a total disaster, this should not be a make or break season. Let it play out, see where they are and assess at the end of 2024. The perception is what it is, but I’m not falling for the banana in the tail pipe. |
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| Art Stapleton @art_stapleton Giants have poisoned their own fan base and parts of their organization with all the bad decisions and losing that they’ve done for a decade. It’s such a warped sense of reality that in two years, one year that was praised, unbelievably across the league. Two years ago, the Giants hired one of the best candidates on the market for both their GM and head coaching jobs. Sooner or later, they’re going to have to let talented people work through mistakes, shortcomings, and overall incompetence that lingers from previous failed regimes. Get off the carousel, wake up and have some patience to see if they’re going to fail because of who they are, if they’re going to succeed because who they are and not because of what came before them. |
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Art Stapleton @art_stapleton The meddling stuff is folly. Fans want Mara to meddle when he doesn't, and if he doesn't, he gets ripped for not stepping in and meddling. He's the owner. He stays out of the way, but he's involved. He's not an ivory tower guy. Fans have seen him waiting in parking garages for his car at Town Hall. He flies commercial. As with any owner, there are good decisions and bad decisions, and Mara owns all of them - he signs off on it all, either verbally or just allowing it to happen. After Jerry Reese, Mara wanted a GM to be the voice for the football ops. Reese was not that guy. Thought he had that with Gettleman, and obviously we saw how that turned out. There's a reason why Mara has stepped into the background: he wants the GM to be the face. That's Joe Schoen. Mara will talk on league matters and give an occasional State of the Giants, but those are more rare because he would rather Schoen be that representative for the organization. |
It's okay to take some risks and be wrong every now and then. But what has gone on for the past decade is well beyond that.
They make senseless decisions. Perfect examples: Kept dragging out Eli too long, made Solder the highest paid OL, RB overall #2 pick, panicked with Jones pick, Tate and Golladay signings and drafting Toney, continuing a myriad of errors with the OL, above market deal for Jones to name just a few.
Just stop screwing up with the Unforced Errors for crying out loud. Consistent winning in the NFL isn't easy but these front office decisions make it near impossible.
Realistically it takes 4 years or so to completely overhaul a playing roster, particularly if you largely build through the draft. On top of that the draft is an inexact science, it is a crap shoot with educated guesses.
I think Schoen and Daboll are generally on the right track. Sure some things have gone awry at times and limited depth of talent on the roster left a very low margin of error. I really like the collaborative approach and I am sure Schoen and Daboll wil learn from what has happened to date and adjust.
There are a lot of arm-chair GMs saying the Giants must do X or must not do y, otherwise there needs to be firings etc.
We need to be patient and let things unfold, Schoen and Daboll have plans, lets see things play out.
I actually think the facts are simple. We made a horrible decision in hiring Gettleman. I felt this was obvious very early on (for me it was the "lets get rid of all the talent I did not draft" for late round picks.) And the longer it went the worse it got. All the rest of the problems flow from that one stupid decision.
This. Art can try to calm everyone down but it isn't going to work. This team has basically been the laughing stock of the NFL with like 2 seasons of sprinkled in success. Giving Jones the contract they did was not smart. Franchising Barkley was not smart. How is this roster better than the one Schoen inherited? An argument can be made either way there. The OL is still a mess. This is a pivotal year for Schoen. Call it what you want but he has a lot to prove. I never agree with publicly or privately telling a GM that he needs to win or else. All that does is lead to irrational moves like trading away future draft picks or destroying the cap in a last resort type of move. Let the GM manage but that doesn't mean he isn't on the hot seat if he doesn't perform. We all know what the NFL stands for in this sport. This team needs to play better. It is that simple. If not, everyone should be concerned about their job security.
The fans didn't fire the last 3 coaches after two years each.
The fans didn't fire the last 3 coaches after two years each.
Exactly. Which is my biggest fear in how this off-season is approached.
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This is a big offseason for Joe. He needs to deliver.
This. Art can try to calm everyone down but it isn't going to work. This team has basically been the laughing stock of the NFL with like 2 seasons of sprinkled in success. Giving Jones the contract they did was not smart. Franchising Barkley was not smart. How is this roster better than the one Schoen inherited? An argument can be made either way there. The OL is still a mess. This is a pivotal year for Schoen. Call it what you want but he has a lot to prove. I never agree with publicly or privately telling a GM that he needs to win or else. All that does is lead to irrational moves like trading away future draft picks or destroying the cap in a last resort type of move. Let the GM manage but that doesn't mean he isn't on the hot seat if he doesn't perform. We all know what the NFL stands for in this sport. This team needs to play better. It is that simple. If not, everyone should be concerned about their job security.
You keep on changing GMs and HCs you will stay in the toilet just like Cleveland did for decades.
The story he hasn't had resources to build up the team is fundamentally untrue.
He walked into a situation with two lottery picks, in addition to the full arsenal of draft picks both years. He's also expended cash resources to:
- Extend Thomas
- Extend Lawrence
- Sign Jones
- Sign Glowinksi
- Sign Okereke
- Acquire and restructure Waller
- Franchise Barkley
If he screwed up with Jones, Neal, Glowinksi, Waller, and Barkley -- he did that on his own.
The story he hasn't had resources to build up the team is fundamentally untrue.
He walked into a situation with two lottery picks, in addition to the full arsenal of draft picks both years. He's also expended cash resources to:
- Extend Thomas
- Extend Lawrence
- Sign Jones
- Sign Glowinksi
- Sign Okereke
- Acquire and restructure Waller
- Franchise Barkley
If he screwed up with Jones, Neal, Glowinksi, Waller, and Barkley -- he did that on his own.
He had two lottery picks in a year with no lottery QB's. Shit luck, but those returns have been underwhelming.
The Schoen tenure will be determined by whether he gets a QB. He finally has a chance this draft which is why I strongly believe he won't be passive in trying to acquire one at the top. He hasn't had the opportunity yet.
They better draft real real well and get that new QB ASAP, ie pronto.
It's why it's logical Schoen will be aggressive for a QB in April.
Schoen and Daboll had nothing to do with the 10 years of lousy football from 2012-2021.
They are responsible for TWO seasons. One playoff season and one 6-11 season.
That's it.
Those lumping in the new regime with those before it are not thinking straight.
Schoen and Daboll had nothing to do with the 10 years of lousy football from 2012-2021.
They are responsible for TWO seasons. One playoff season and one 6-11 season.
That's it.
Those lumping in the new regime with those before it are not thinking straight.
+1
In general, the fan base is now in absolute immediate gratification mode.
I’m “hoping” that John doesn’t buy into this. If he feels he hired the right people, he needs to turn a deaf ear to the fans and let them work at it.
This is NOT a 1 or 2 year fix. The idea is to be competitive LONG term, not just a random season.
Schoen and Daboll had nothing to do with the 10 years of lousy football from 2012-2021.
They are responsible for TWO seasons. One playoff season and one 6-11 season.
That's it.
Those lumping in the new regime with those before it are not thinking straight.
They miss playoffs in 2024, and especially with no QB room improved, they will be shown the door if they miss playoffs in 2025. They are quite possibly going to be victims of their own success in 2022 and irrational luck and misfortuned assumptions for 2023. This is an enormous pivot off-season they must nail in a big way starting with QB.
Schoen and Daboll had nothing to do with the 10 years of lousy football from 2012-2021.
They are responsible for TWO seasons. One playoff season and one 6-11 season.
That's it.
Those lumping in the new regime with those before it are not thinking straight.
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of people on this thread are missing Art's point.
Schoen and Daboll had nothing to do with the 10 years of lousy football from 2012-2021.
They are responsible for TWO seasons. One playoff season and one 6-11 season.
That's it.
Those lumping in the new regime with those before it are not thinking straight.
They miss playoffs in 2024, and especially with no QB room improved, they will be shown the door if they miss playoffs in 2025. They are quite possibly going to be victims of their own success in 2022 and irrational luck and misfortuned assumptions for 2023. This is an enormous pivot off-season they must nail in a big way starting with QB.
No they don't need to "nail" the QB. We would like them to do so. Not sure what they are thinking as far as QB. But a functional QB with just above Tyrod's skill level would make them competitive if the oline improves.
I doubt they make the playoffs this year without some luck and lots of health.
In other words, I am not expecting much this year except improving the roster.
If they run Jones out there again without a viable replacement on the roster, and we get a repeat of last year, impatient Mara is going to be brewing in that suite.
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In comment 16402126 Eric from BBI said:
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of people on this thread are missing Art's point.
Schoen and Daboll had nothing to do with the 10 years of lousy football from 2012-2021.
They are responsible for TWO seasons. One playoff season and one 6-11 season.
That's it.
Those lumping in the new regime with those before it are not thinking straight.
They miss playoffs in 2024, and especially with no QB room improved, they will be shown the door if they miss playoffs in 2025. They are quite possibly going to be victims of their own success in 2022 and irrational luck and misfortuned assumptions for 2023. This is an enormous pivot off-season they must nail in a big way starting with QB.
No they don't need to "nail" the QB. We would like them to do so. Not sure what they are thinking as far as QB. But a functional QB with just above Tyrod's skill level would make them competitive if the oline improves.
I doubt they make the playoffs this year without some luck and lots of health.
In other words, I am not expecting much this year except improving the roster.
They have to get an exciting young QB in here. They won’t get a shot or leash of 3 more years to do it. It’s now.
This is exactly what I’ve been posting. If Schoen doesn’t get a QB this year, he’s probably fucked. And so are we as fans because we’ll be stuck with jones through 2025.
The Dodgers had two managers until I was 44 years old. Changing the coach every two years guarantees disaster, and disaster is what the Maras have given us.
Schoen and Daboll had nothing to do with the 10 years of lousy football from 2012-2021.
They are responsible for TWO seasons. One playoff season and one 6-11 season.
That's it.
Those lumping in the new regime with those before it are not thinking straight.
Again - I’ve been saying this exact thing for about 2 months for anything willing to listen but you have to remember that this is BBI and not reality.
In general, the fan base is now in absolute immediate gratification mode.
I’m “hoping” that John doesn’t buy into this. If he feels he hired the right people, he needs to turn a deaf ear to the fans and let them work at it.
This is NOT a 1 or 2 year fix. The idea is to be competitive LONG term, not just a random season.
They got immediate results in 2022.
The bloom is off the rose. Schoen needs to have a great off-season and Daboll needs to be competitive every game and win the majority of them.
If they run Jones out there again without a viable replacement on the roster, and we get a repeat of last year, impatient Mara is going to be brewing in that suite.
Not if they tell him that they have reservations about Jones being a viable QB because of "injuries"..
Besides Mara isn't stupid, he may be thick and stubborn, but not stupid. Also, Steve Tisch put his foot down with Judge, he may tell Mara to be patient with the team.
But what do I know....
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of people on this thread are missing Art's point.
Schoen and Daboll had nothing to do with the 10 years of lousy football from 2012-2021.
They are responsible for TWO seasons. One playoff season and one 6-11 season.
That's it.
Those lumping in the new regime with those before it are not thinking straight.
Again - I’ve been saying this exact thing for about 2 months for anything willing to listen but you have to remember that this is BBI and not reality.
Irony never fails to evade you
A season is a really long time in the NFL. I wouldn't discount any possibility in terms of job security.
If they run it back with Jones, with no upgrade waiting in the wings, and they get a repeat of last season -- so they deserve to be back?
If they run it back with Jones, with no upgrade waiting in the wings, and they get a repeat of last season -- so they deserve to be back?
Please cite my 7:26pm ET post next time, thank you.
& while I hate to bring it up, but it all circles back to the QB position. Joe & Dabs would be insane to hitch their wagon going forward to the $40 Million Dollar Fraud. The sooner they realize that, the better for them & the organization.
You want the Giants to trade a Kings ransom for a higher draft pick which A) you have absolutely no idea what that trade would look like and B) have absolutely no idea how Schoen and Daboll view the current QB situation.
You wanted the Giants to somehow make the playoffs this year with a second and third string QB playing most of the season and a decimated and terrible OL for the first quarter of the year.
You blame pretty much everything on the quarterback that was one of the few people responsible for actually delivering the Giants a playoff win for the first time in 10 years. Instead of looking at deeper problems, you blame 1 person.
You also blame the GM and head coach (both who were already more successful than Tom Coughlin was in his first 2 seasons with the team) for giving the quarterback what amounts to a 2 year deal, with baggage on that 3rd year, after he played good football for the first season with the team, had a working OL and shitty receivers and still played good ball for us.
And to cap it off, because you are so displeased with the previous 10 years, you just think well the Giants suck, Mara sucks, everyone is an idiot except for you.
This entire thing is just such garbage tired bullshit at this point.
The fans didn't fire the last 3 coaches after two years each.
What “data” are you talking about?
If the Giants make the Davis Webb investment at QB, and Jones gets his doors blown off again, I doubt even our patron saint of patience will be defending Daboll.
A season is a really long time in the NFL. I wouldn't discount any possibility in terms of job security.
Yep, I like Art but he’s talking out of both sides of his mouth. Reassess at the end of this year means this year’s results matter. Why wouldn’t they? Okereke and Banks were nice additions - but your first round pick and biggest FA signings better be nice additions. We need more than just the bare minimum now.
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of people on this thread are missing Art's point.
Schoen and Daboll had nothing to do with the 10 years of lousy football from 2012-2021.
They are responsible for TWO seasons. One playoff season and one 6-11 season.
That's it.
Those lumping in the new regime with those before it are not thinking straight.
They miss playoffs in 2024, and especially with no QB room improved, they will be shown the door if they miss playoffs in 2025. They are quite possibly going to be victims of their own success in 2022 and irrational luck and misfortuned assumptions for 2023. This is an enormous pivot off-season they must nail in a big way starting with QB.
Agreed. And I've already said the same many times.
But I've also said for years (pre-Schoen/Daboll) that Giants fans keep lumping together past regimes.
When you start over, you start over.
This part keeps getting lost on many Giants fans.
If they fire Schoen and Daboll next offseason, it's back to square one. Nothing that happened in 2012-2024 counts.
Where did I say I wanted them to make the NFC Championship game? I conceded that they were probably going to lose the Eagles game after they beat Minnesota. Another made up Ryan fantasy.
And neither do you. Yes I’d prefer the Giants trade up for QB if the situation allows it. I’ve also said there’s a pretty realistic chance Maye will be there at 6 and I would be fine with McCarthy at 6. Another lie from you.
Another lie. I said they’d regress. I didn’t think it would be embarrassing though.
One of the few people. Always the hero, never his fault. The deeper problem is this team hasn’t been able to properly evaluate the quarterback position since 2018. The way you hang on to the wild card win in a fluke season is embarrassing.
Who else’s fault would it be? They could have paid him half the contract they did, because there was no market for him. They fucked up and have to fix it.
This entire thing is just such garbage tired bullshit at this point.
The Giants do suck, and you’re the only one who I think is an idiot. And again, irony continues to evade you. Please buy a mirror.
If they run it back with Jones, with no upgrade waiting in the wings, and they get a repeat of last season -- so they deserve to be back?
Because there wasn't a QB left worth drafting with the #6 pick?
Do not chase a bad QB with another bad QB at the #6 pick, again.
Does anyone believe McAdoo, Shurmur or Judge just needed more time?
Gettleman received too much time
If Schoen/Daboll cant show any progress in Y3 and resemble the mess they put out this season and it was mess - outscored 153-62 in the first 6 weeks. Then they will deserve to go as well
The Giants stick with people too long
That game-to the DJFC-is the greatest QB performance of all time. It is so sad.
And Thats exactly what they did this year. And it blew up all over
They need to decide this offseason if they will finally turn the page
If they run it back with Jones, with no upgrade waiting in the wings, and they get a repeat of last season -- so they deserve to be back?
Because there wasn't a QB left worth drafting with the #6 pick?
Do not chase a bad QB with another bad QB at the #6 pick, again.
Scenarios I can imagine:
- Sign an UFA like Minshew
- Trade up or pick number 6
- Trade down in round one
- Trade up from round two into round one
- Use one of their round two picks
They have plenty of ammo and opportunity to create viable competition at the quarterback position.
If they hang their hat on Jones, and they are wrong, they're gone.
Should we just look the other way at that huge accident on the Turnpike?? JFC.
And just wait if Schoen doubles-down on Jones by not grabbing a QB on day one or day two and/or in the free agency window.
Love the effort here to protect Teflon Joe.
At least give Daboll credit for having to coach the crummy team Schoen puts together...
That game-to the DJFC-is the greatest QB performance of all time. It is so sad.
It’s pathetic. One average season if you’re being generous cancels all the shit we’ve seen for 5 years. And that average season they finished 3-6-1 beating zero good teams in the process. I’m sick of hearing about the fluke season that started 6-1 because the league wasn’t caught up to Daboll/Kafka like it’s supposed to cancel everything else out, and then be accused of posting bullshit for being realistic about what the Giants are and have been.
So, in that sense I don't think this regime is on the hot seat, but I do think they need to be competing by 2025 seriously. It's hard to imagine that path without picking the QB this year.
I couldn't help but get the sense that Art received a call today from 1925 Giants Way asking for a favor...
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Takes the job with the benefit of hindsight. Meddling owner, front office filled with family members whose biggest qualification is winning the genetic lottery and being born into an NFL family
The Dodgers had two managers until I was 44 years old. Changing the coach every two years guarantees disaster, and disaster is what the Maras have given us.
They got "immediate results" for about 8 or games. They were under .500 for the rest of the season and have been under .500 ever since. This is McAdoo redux.
Judas Priest, stop making excuses, rallying around the flag every time the slightest criticism is uttered and start raising your expectations for players, coaches and GM's. Stop thinking average and below average is great. Average and below average is average and below average. Quit listening to the fat-headed owner and his "we're back" baloney followed by the usual bungling in evaluation and free agency.
Should we just look the other way at that huge accident on the Turnpike?? JFC.
And just wait if Schoen doubles-down on Jones by not grabbing a QB on day one or day two and/or in the free agency window.
Love the effort here to protect Teflon Joe.
At least give Daboll credit for having to coach the crummy team Schoen puts together...
Rinse and repeat. Keep getting rid of GMs and HCs like they grow on trees. Never get stability. Never get the team going in one direction just continue knee jerk reactions.
I don't disagree on Jones, but I am hoping they don't grab a round 1 QB just to grab one unless it fits what they plan on doing..I don't think for a minute that they will be reckless.
Rinse and repeat. Keep getting rid of GMs and HCs like they grow on trees. Never get stability. Never get the team going in one direction just continue knee jerk reactions.
I don't disagree on Jones, but I am hoping they don't grab a round 1 QB just to grab one unless it fits what they plan on doing..I don't think for a minute that they will be reckless.
I believe one of the major requirements for an NFL GM is to solve the QB position. Because if you don't do that, the rest really doesn't matter much...
How much time do you want to give Schoen? Six years? ;)
Does anyone believe McAdoo, Shurmur or Judge just needed more time?
Gettleman received too much time
If Schoen/Daboll cant show any progress in Y3 and resemble the mess they put out this season and it was mess - outscored 153-62 in the first 6 weeks. Then they will deserve to go as well
The Giants stick with people too long
It’s just the reality of the NFL though, you don’t get 5 years to prove it as a coach and GM - especially not after making what was a giant miscalculation in the Jones contract.
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=632859
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=632842
The overwhelming opinion on the Jones contract last year was that it was a good deal by Schoen who hedged his bet. And this includes some of the biggest Jones critics too.
Knowing what we know after 2023, it was a bad contract by Schoen. It's just odd to me how so many think Schoen won't draft a QB because of the Jones contract now a year later.
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=632859
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=632842
The overwhelming opinion on the Jones contract last year was that it was a good deal by Schoen who hedged his bet. And this includes some of the biggest Jones critics too.
Knowing what we know after 2023, it was a bad contract by Schoen. It's just odd to me how so many think Schoen won't draft a QB because of the Jones contract now a year later.
Don't we want someone in charge smarter than the overwhelming number of BBIers?
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It was his call to attach make a big re-investment in Jones.
Should we just look the other way at that huge accident on the Turnpike?? JFC.
And just wait if Schoen doubles-down on Jones by not grabbing a QB on day one or day two and/or in the free agency window.
Love the effort here to protect Teflon Joe.
At least give Daboll credit for having to coach the crummy team Schoen puts together...
Rinse and repeat. Keep getting rid of GMs and HCs like they grow on trees. Never get stability. Never get the team going in one direction just continue knee jerk reactions.
I don't disagree on Jones, but I am hoping they don't grab a round 1 QB just to grab one unless it fits what they plan on doing..I don't think for a minute that they will be reckless.
Not impressed with Daboll or Schoen. They had a chance to build and instead they walked around like they were geniuses and faceplanted. Did they learn anything? I hope so. If not, NFL will mean "Not for Long" where they are concerned.
As of right now I don’t really know what Daboll and Schoen want to do and how they are going to consistently challenge in division and get roster that is on the better half/side of the league, nevermind a true SB contender. I don’t see the strong decisions and gaming theory in play.
This is such a huge offseason for them. Can’t be understated.
LOL. I'd add, Vegas knew this too, our O/U going into the year was 7.5 IIRC. The world outside of NYG fandom saw the obvious.
This is why I sort of disagree with Art's characterization of this being different. Yeah, the names are, but the issues remain the same.
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Probably should be you. You were all over this from the beginning.
LOL. I'd add, Vegas knew this too, our O/U going into the year was 7.5 IIRC. The world outside of NYG fandom saw the obvious.
This is why I sort of disagree with Art's characterization of this being different. Yeah, the names are, but the issues remain the same.
It’s why saying you have to separate the previous regimes from the current doesn’t track in my opinion. They still are making the same mistakes, the two biggest being:
1) they can’t properly evaluate the QB position
2) they continue to swap out names on the oline with similar results
It's so frustrating.
Plenty of posters all of a sudden changed their mind and said oh actually Daniel Jones sucks.
It's so frustrating.
Yup. See, Sterling Sheppard.
Nobody has said they aren’t though.
We agreed there.
He always sucked. What changed was the level of denial.
I said they aren’t an improvement? Where?
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right now.
I said they aren’t an improvement? Where?
Well, Brett says he disagrees with Art's characterization that things are different. Says the names are different, but the issues are the same.
Then you jump in in agreement saying it’s why you don't agree with separating out this from the previous regimes, adding they still are making the same mistakes.
So yes, every point here is that they're the same.
But it’s factual that they’ve made some of the same mistakes that their predecessors have made. Like Reese and Gettleman they so far have misevaluated the QB position. Like Reese and Gettleman, they’ve so far failed at addressing the oline, they did draft Neal. That’s not saying they aren’t an improvement, they could very well be better at their jobs but not end up being good enough to be the long term answer here. We’ll have to see what unfolds over the next 12-24 months.
They’re an improvement over Gettleman, but they still have mistakes they need to correct and have a lot to prove if they want to be a long term answer.
Do you still want to pat Dave on the back?
Or you’re just twisting a post for it to say what you want it to say. I’ve laid out pretty clearly that I like Schoen and Daboll.
How can I like Schoen and Daboll and think they’re the same as Gettleman and Judge?
Multiple things are allowed to be true at the same time. I like them and they’re an improvement and they’ve still made some of the same mistakes the previous regime has made. We’ll see if they can fix those mistakes over the next 12 months.
You can’t bring yourself to say “Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll are an upgrade over the past 2 coaches/GM regime.”
You can’t bring yourself to say “Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll are an upgrade over the past 2 coaches/GM regime.”
Can you not read? I literally said it. Imbecile.
It does not come close to suggesting Schoen and Gettleman are the same in any capacity. Dave Gettleman was a unique plague on this franchise.
I liked Reese/Coughlin, and they had the same issues toward the end.
To be clear, I'm not one of the 'Mara is the boogieman' people--I'm not suggesting I know the issue--but it's been a decade plus of poor self-scouting that stumbled us into repeated bad decisions.
Outside of Jones and Barkley (which I don't care to discuss much), I think Schoen's done a decent job of asset management, something Gettleman totally bungled. Rather than trading for Ogletree and Williams, Schoen dumps Toney and Williams for nice hauls. Gettleman couldn't see beyond his nose--I don't think Schoen has exhibited a strong strategic mind, but he can at least see the next step.
I can still see the Schoen/Daboll era ending well for us. I never really could for Gettleman.
I can still see the Schoen/Daboll era ending well for us. I never really could for Gettleman.
Agreed. They’ve made mistakes but I still think it could end up well for the Giants if they can figure out the QB position.
If people want to to twist that into something negative, whatever.
And if there's one thing I hope Mara has learned, it's to not give four years to another guy in over his head.
If Schoen is prepared to bet his career on Daniel Jones, that's on him. He'll either be the genius who saw what virtually no one else saw. Or he'll be a frequent guest on a minor ESPN football show.
My opinion of Schoen not drafting a QB is not based on the contract.
It's because I think, until proven otherwise, that Schoen really believes in Jones as the QB to lead this team to big trophies.
And that nails it.
The overwhelming majority of the players who were key in the 2022 playoff season were Gettleman's players.
I feel like some people sort of just want to bury their heads in the sand and wait for results in X number of years rather than analyze process/decision making.
Personally, I struggle seeing the 'plan' here: Year one, it seemed like they expected a bad year, planned to replace Jones in 2023, didn't expect the playoffs. I'd point to Schoen's comments at the time of his hiring, the declining of Jones's fifth year option as evidence as this. Maybe I'm reading the comments/actions incorrectly, of course, but that's what I see.
Instead, they had a good year and rather than diagnose it properly, thought they could contend and made short-term investments to do so, which promptly blew up in their face. It was a really bad reading of the chess board.
I struggle to understand the plan from where we are today. Maybe their draft board gives them more options than I see as someone who just really follows draft talking heads.
The Giants have huge question marks at QB, RB, RT, both guards, and number one pass catcher on offense. On defense they have huge question marks at corner, defensive end, edge, and possibly safety.
And many of the above are positions Schoen has committed significant resources to try and address.
The Giants have huge question marks at QB, RB, RT, both guards, and number one pass catcher on offense. On defense they have huge question marks at corner, defensive end, edge, and possibly safety.
And many of the above are positions Schoen has committed significant resources to try and address.
That's a huge dilemma. Is it that guys like Thibs and Neal just aren't great or is it coaching or a combination of both? It's things like that where someone will ultimately have to fall on the sword. As fans, we really don't care what the reason is. We just want to see results. This is a results based business. If the results aren't there then someone will be held responsible. If they draft a QB and he shows signs then they'll get another year most likely even with a bad record unless it just becomes another shit show.
(I also like Thibs a ton, I think he's going to be a Pro Bowler)
Until we see how they plan to fix the QB position, we won’t know what their plan really is, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that at the moment. 2022 caught them by surprise and 2023 may have, we don’t really know for sure what they really thought the team could be. Did they think they’d compete for the division, or were they crossing their fingers and hoping they would? We don’t know.
The same people preaching patience, preached it with Gettleman and Golladay and get very sensitive about any criticism about the Giants. No GM is perfect, even the Patriots in their dynasty made mistakes here and there, but Schoen has made some mistakes.
The previous GM got 4 years and it was two years too long. It’s not unreasonable to think Schoen’s job could be in jeopardy or close to it after three years isn’t crazy to think. By this time next year the 2022 season will be 2 full calendar years away. The leash that granted Schoen and Daboll gets shorter the further away from it we get. They have to correct their mistakes in order to extend the leash.
It’s just the reality of the NFL though, you don’t get 5 years to prove it as a coach and GM - especially not after making what was a giant miscalculation in the Jones contract.
Agreed, if they don't right their wrongs by drafting a promising rookie QB then they are tying their own nooses by doubling down on their stupidity. I don't care what Mara publicly said, if you had the balls you would have franchised DJ and let Saquon test the market or at least let DJ test the open market before handing him a historic contract. The more I think about it the more infuriatingly idiotic it is. They should have known better and there is no Mara excuse, we need a GM with the balls and brawn to make intelligent decisions even if it isn't in alignment with the owner's preferences.
(I also like Thibs a ton, I think he's going to be a Pro Bowler)
I agree too. I really wanted Sauce but he wasn't an option. I don't blame Schoen for taking Thibs and Neal but ultimately they have to produce. Even if it is coaching that was the problem with the OL, it doesn't matter. We just want to see improvement. Even dating back to the Coughlin years, we always overachieved to win both SBs. Our best team was our 2008 team in terms of talent and dominance. It's been that long since we had a team that dominated during the season. We had that one team where we had DRC and Jenkins but that was short lived. This team cannot sustain success. We can say it is because we have changed GMs a fair amount. But would it have been better had we not? The one thing that I'll say and I said it before, an owner should NEVER tell a GM that he has to win or else. All it does is hinder the new GM because the mortgage will be mortgaged one way or another.
I’ll admit these days I’m only a postseason ranger fan, basketball keeps me too consumed November through the draft to focus on regular season hockey, but agree with everything - including it being a 3 year project. Next year is year 3, so even if they don’t end up losing their jobs next year - they’ll be at risk of losing them after year 4 if next year goes the way it appears it may.
‘23 off-season - give that player four years/$160M rather than the franchise tag
‘24 off-season - use 6th overall pick to replace that player? Sign a veteran off the scrap heap to replace that player? Run it back with that player?
And none of these decisions had anything to do with prior regimes. There were multiple ways this could have been handled differently.
How does all of this sit with you, Art?
Plenty of posters all of a sudden changed their mind and said oh actually Daniel Jones sucks.
Jones had a historically bad start to the year. He had the least amount of TDs to pass attempts over 100 since the invention of the forward pass. He only surpassed himself from 2020 where he threw just 2 TDs in the first 5 games and 113 pass attempts
‘23 off-season - give that player four years/$160M rather than the franchise tag
‘24 off-season - use 6th overall pick to replace that player? Sign a veteran off the scrap heap to replace that player? Run it back with that player?
And none of these decisions had anything to do with prior regimes. There were multiple ways this could have been handled differently.
How does all of this sit with you, Art?
☝️
Great post. The QB position has been handled with complete incompetence by this regime. And I have WANTED to like Schoen and Daboll.
There is no scenario where the Giants don't look like fools. They either reverse themselves AGAIN or they stick with an injured QB who was awful when he was healthy.
Exactly, there are plenty examples of this over the years like Wentz in Philly for instance.
Yes, there is no precedent for that. It is ridiculous, but if they hit on one of the 4 top QBs all will be forgotten and we will have a lot of cap room for 2025-2030
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is the first quarterback to sign an extension with the team that declined his fifth-year option.
Yes, there is no precedent for that. It is ridiculous, but if they hit on one of the 4 top QBs all will be forgotten and we will have a lot of cap room for 2025-2030
I want them to take a top QB. But that would be quite the two years of back-and-forth decision-making. Which I fear is the reason they won't do it.
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In comment 16402354 PHX Giants Fan said:
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is the first quarterback to sign an extension with the team that declined his fifth-year option.
Yes, there is no precedent for that. It is ridiculous, but if they hit on one of the 4 top QBs all will be forgotten and we will have a lot of cap room for 2025-2030
I want them to take a top QB. But that would be quite the two years of back-and-forth decision-making. Which I fear is the reason they won't do it.
The ability to adapt and pivot is a sign of intelligence. I don't think fear of admitting a mistake in their actions will prevent them from righting their wrongs. I think they know if they don't do something to correct it in this draft then their futures are sleek. Many here share your sentiment and it is valid for sure. I also think they know if they get a promising young qb for Dabs n Co to hone in their system they buy themselves an extra year or two to improve the roster and better the team. If they stick with Jones without a backup plan, then they're sitting ducks. Schoen attended a lot of games for the top QB prospects in this draft. I really don't think he will avoid taking one if he likes him out of fear to admit a mistake or a penchant for DJ. I bet we get one if the top 4 QBs and I'm really hoping for Daniels or McCarthy personally.
Yep. It will all be forgotten. Teams overpay shitty QB's all the time. No one gives a fuck once the position is figured out. It has to happen THIS offseason though.
The Giants fucked up giving Jones that contract. It happens. But they need to admit that to themselves and go about upgrading the position.
If they have a conviction on a QB then draft him if you have the opportunity. The issues are way beyond just a QB.
I had concerns with the JS/BD tandem when they were hired so it is not totally surprising to me. Big year for both. A good start would be a great draft this year.
Plenty of posters all of a sudden changed their mind and said oh actually Daniel Jones sucks.
Wrong. Plenty had trepidations about throwing around big money when the results weren't there.
There's a history before 2022.
At the end of the day, this is a running QB who has now a significant injury history and very spotty play. But the latter should really be the back page story. The injuries the headline.
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Again, Jones had a bad start to the year, a lot due to the fact that he had the worst OL in football over the past 25 years and then he tore his knee.
Plenty of posters all of a sudden changed their mind and said oh actually Daniel Jones sucks.
Wrong. Plenty had trepidations about throwing around big money when the results weren't there.
There's a history before 2022.
He just makes up people’s opinions and the general consensus to fit his narrative.
At the end of the day, this is a running QB who has now a significant injury history and very spotty play. But the latter should really be the back page story. The injuries the headline.
I think so many people overcomplicate what the plan was. Schoen signed on for a 2 year window with Jones & Barkley. He structured the Jones contract in a way to try and compete in 2023. It was a disaster. Beyond the injuries, other than the 2nd half in Arizona, Jones regressed.
The plan failed. And the natural pivot now is to draft a QB. I think there are some posters here that just lean into the dramatics. Abrams is a prime example when everyone assumed he would be promoted to GM. If Schoen really loved Jones, he would have gotten a contract more in line with Hurts, Burrow, etc. There are posters then comparing the injuries Jones has to someone like Burrow who's making over $100M more money than Jones.
I think it's easy to expect a QB drafted or to put it another way, one of the top six QBs in the draft will be a Giant.
‘23 off-season - give that player four years/$160M rather than the franchise tag
‘24 off-season - use 6th overall pick to replace that player? Sign a veteran off the scrap heap to replace that player? Run it back with that player?
And none of these decisions had anything to do with prior regimes. There were multiple ways this could have been handled differently.
How does all of this sit with you, Art?
Exactly. People will try to spin this ("the contract really wasn't that bad") but they can't.
Like Brett mentioned earlier, they haven’t shown the balls to make the hard decisions yet. That would have been franchising Jones and letting Barkley walk.
The contract was the fuck up.
You can’t bring yourself to say “Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll are an upgrade over the past 2 coaches/GM regime.”
That would either be enormous waffling or enormous humility.
I think the primary difference between fans who don't want Jones and management, is they put 82M on him. I think Schoen probably feels a lot like ryanmkeane about Jones.
The contract was the fuck up.
I was. The Giants were always giving Jones 2 years under Daboll.
And if Joe views Jones like ryan…we are fucked.
That would either be enormous waffling or enormous humility.
I think the primary difference between fans who don't want Jones and management, is they put 82M on him. I think Schoen probably feels a lot like ryanmkeane about Jones.
You may be right, and if so we’re screwed. Hopefully the next 8 weeks tells us differently.
The contract was the fuck up.
This is why the DJ evaluation/contract is really on Joe Schoen and not the Maras. Nobody meddled or overruled Schoen and forced him to pick up the 5th year option on DJ.
So it is tough to get there that Schoen was later forced to give him that nonsensical deal. Schoen made a huge error in judgment and it just happened to be to the favor of what Mara wanted to happen anyway. Similar to Gettleman saying Eli could still play after he was hired which is just what John Mara wanted to hear.
We are going to learn finally how Schoen and Daboll really feel about this guy, and we are going to have an answer within the next 6 weeks.
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‘22 off-season - decline 5th-year option
‘23 off-season - give that player four years/$160M rather than the franchise tag
‘24 off-season - use 6th overall pick to replace that player? Sign a veteran off the scrap heap to replace that player? Run it back with that player?
And none of these decisions had anything to do with prior regimes. There were multiple ways this could have been handled differently.
How does all of this sit with you, Art?
Exactly. People will try to spin this ("the contract really wasn't that bad") but they can't.
The contract was not good but I don't neccessarily think it's crippling/defining for Schoen. They can cut him after year 2 and it's set up exactly that way if he didn't perform, because he would likely be due for a restructure in the 2025 offseason. He is now way in the hole performance-wise so this decision is easy.
The only thing that would make the Jones contract crippling is if Schoen does not take the modest out he negotiated for year 2 and fails to pivot now.
That would either be enormous waffling or enormous humility.
I think the primary difference between fans who don't want Jones and management, is they put 82M on him. I think Schoen probably feels a lot like ryanmkeane about Jones.
I do fear the Giants have a rose-colored glasses view on Jones, but if they are rational thinkers who understand the terms of the contract they signed him to, then 2023 is actually very important data. Jones over the course of two seasons basically has to play his way into a contract restructure, and thus more years cemented as the Giants QB. His 2023 performance and injury put him majorly in the hole, adding even more concerns of triggering the injury guarantee clause on top of that.
If Schoen was dispassionate and guided by the terms and expectaitons of the very contract he signed Jones to, the sensible thing would actually involve doing everything in his power to keep Jones off the field in 2024 and then cut him. If Jones starts 17 games and plays like the 19th best QB in the league, and the Giants get 8 or 9 wins, is that enough data to make the case for a restructure? for most of us fans, that answer is no, but that will be certainly enough for Mara, Banks, Tiki et al, and that's why Jones cannot remain QB.
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In comment 16402343 PHX Giants Fan said:
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‘22 off-season - decline 5th-year option
‘23 off-season - give that player four years/$160M rather than the franchise tag
‘24 off-season - use 6th overall pick to replace that player? Sign a veteran off the scrap heap to replace that player? Run it back with that player?
And none of these decisions had anything to do with prior regimes. There were multiple ways this could have been handled differently.
How does all of this sit with you, Art?
Exactly. People will try to spin this ("the contract really wasn't that bad") but they can't.
The contract was not good but I don't neccessarily think it's crippling/defining for Schoen. They can cut him after year 2 and it's set up exactly that way if he didn't perform, because he would likely be due for a restructure in the 2025 offseason. He is now way in the hole performance-wise so this decision is easy.
The only thing that would make the Jones contract crippling is if Schoen does not take the modest out he negotiated for year 2 and fails to pivot now.
The contract is one of the worst in NFL history and will certainly cripple the Giants in 2024, and hinder them in '25. The temptation to restructure the deal to clear cap space will be very powerful this season. There's a chance the Giants can't field a functional team in '24 without dipping into the Jones deal. That's the rub in this deal, They get nothing back for the $47M cap hold in 2024. There is no way around it, production per dollar, the Jones deal in 2024 will look like one of the worst contract seasons in history.
That is abolutely the worst case scenario and is plausible. If Jones rushes back from an ACL to start week 1, however, I don't see it happening. He has a history of rushing back from injuries (and the Giants enabling it) and looking like shit, so I foresee disaster here.
If Jones is benched this year for a rookie, and he played 6 games of terrible football total on the contract -- his deal will go down as top 10 bad all time.
One nuanced point I made repeatedly at the time, Schoen did one thing right. Other big QB deals usually practically guarantee 3 years. Often this is done by including a trigger after year one that forces the team's hand. Either cut the player before March 15 and absorb a huge year 2 cap hit, or some/all of year 3 becomes guaranteed.
Imagine if the Giants had to choose between cutting Jones and absorbing a 69M cap hit or guaranteeing 25M of his 2025 salary in the next 3 weeks.
To be clear, I'm not defending the deal. But it's a minor consolation.
Jones was 6th in QBR in 2022.
You just wait until he lights up Minnesota again. They’ll probably give him an extension on the spot
The only thing that would make the Jones contract crippling is if Schoen does not take the modest out he negotiated for year 2 and fails to pivot now.
The contract is one of the worst in NFL history and will certainly cripple the Giants in 2024, and hinder them in '25. The temptation to restructure the deal to clear cap space will be very powerful this season. There's a chance the Giants can't field a functional team in '24 without dipping into the Jones deal. That's the rub in this deal, They get nothing back for the $47M cap hold in 2024. There is no way around it, production per dollar, the Jones deal in 2024 will look like one of the worst contract seasons in history.
They aren't going to restructure him. They'll restructure Dex and Thomas, cut Glowinski, and will have enough room to field a team and even bring in some FA.
It's the 2025 offseason where it becomes crippling, because they'll be out of other restructuring moves (but also won't have to hand out any homegrown contracts because Gettleman's 2021 draft was so bad). So just cut him. It's only becomes truly awful if they don't pivot and cut him.
If the Giants a got a QB this offseason and then cut Jones, people will forget about this quickly, and I would put more money on people trashing the Hurts contract five years from now. That's a player with a contract that is completely unmovable who has only put up one great season in his career.
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One is Jones having a mediocre season like 2022 and the Giants getting 7-8 wins and them deciding to stick with Jones and restructure his deal. That would destroy the Giants for probably 4 more years.
Jones was 6th in QBR in 2022.
lol
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One is Jones having a mediocre season like 2022 and the Giants getting 7-8 wins and them deciding to stick with Jones and restructure his deal. That would destroy the Giants for probably 4 more years.
Jones was 6th in QBR in 2022.
He was 13th in passing QBR, 28th in TD %, 15th in yards and 16th in success rate.
Care to address your prior lies on this thread though?
6. Daniel Jones
7. Geno Smith
8. Jacoby Brissett
nu·ance
noun
plural noun: nuances
a subtle difference in or shade of meaning, expression, or sound.
Let’s see how this season goes.
He had a good season, but the contract was structured so that he had to continue playing well. This is not a rookie contract where he gets a mulligan year. A restructure is looming, and 2023 put him severly in the hole.
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In comment 16402425 ajr2456 said:
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One is Jones having a mediocre season like 2022 and the Giants getting 7-8 wins and them deciding to stick with Jones and restructure his deal. That would destroy the Giants for probably 4 more years.
Jones was 6th in QBR in 2022.
lol
BBS, I can’t tell if it’s trolling at this point. I kinda hope it is. The alternative is…wow.
This gets old real fast. Make your own genetic lottery!
I hear you loud and clear. Letting this continue with Jones is just plain nonsense, no matter how much money was laid out in error.
Schoen/Daboll need to do some soul-searching.
The fans didn't fire the last 3 coaches after two years each.
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In comment 16402430 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 16402425 ajr2456 said:
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One is Jones having a mediocre season like 2022 and the Giants getting 7-8 wins and them deciding to stick with Jones and restructure his deal. That would destroy the Giants for probably 4 more years.
Jones was 6th in QBR in 2022.
lol
BBS, I can’t tell if it’s trolling at this point. I kinda hope it is. The alternative is…wow.
It’s like freakin Groundhog Day. Every single time Ryan brings up QBR posters present to him a litany of reasons QBR is a flawed stat and remind him that there are many, many, many other stats that show Jones was mediocre at best in ‘22. You’d think at some point he’d pay attention. But inevitably we will see the ole “he was 6th in QBR” post as if he hadn’t read a damn thing or let anything sink in. It’s comical
It’s like freakin Groundhog Day. Every single time Ryan brings up QBR posters present to him a litany of reasons QBR is a flawed stat and remind him that there are many, many, many other stats that show Jones was mediocre at best in ‘22. You’d think at some point he’d pay attention. But inevitably we will see the ole “he was 6th in QBR” post as if he hadn’t read a damn thing or let anything sink in. It’s comical
Did you know he won a wild card game?
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It’s like freakin Groundhog Day. Every single time Ryan brings up QBR posters present to him a litany of reasons QBR is a flawed stat and remind him that there are many, many, many other stats that show Jones was mediocre at best in ‘22. You’d think at some point he’d pay attention. But inevitably we will see the ole “he was 6th in QBR” post as if he hadn’t read a damn thing or let anything sink in. It’s comical
Did you know he won a wild card game?
So ironic that one of the very few positive football days in the past decade for this broken Franchise has literally become it's latest and greatest crutch.
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It’s like freakin Groundhog Day. Every single time Ryan brings up QBR posters present to him a litany of reasons QBR is a flawed stat and remind him that there are many, many, many other stats that show Jones was mediocre at best in ‘22. You’d think at some point he’d pay attention. But inevitably we will see the ole “he was 6th in QBR” post as if he hadn’t read a damn thing or let anything sink in. It’s comical
Did you know he won a wild card game?
Of course I know this. They put Jones’ Jersey and cleats in the Hall of Fame from this game. It’s a spectacular display. It’s all they talk about in the restaurants around Canton
Case Keenum also had one very good season in the NFL. It's the body of work that matters, and 2023 and the years prior to 2022 count just as much, with 2023 being the most important because it's the first year of a contract that is backloaded and practically demands a restructure after year 2.
The ironic thing is that his vaunted QBR was propped up by his rushing stats, which were largely a product of him being petrified to throw the ball downfield
Schoen will take his medicine this year and I'd expect Jones to be competing with a rookie and vet to start in 2024. And if this year goes bad, Jones gets cut and there is a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 and everyone moves on.
Schoen will take his medicine this year and I'd expect Jones to be competing with a rookie and vet to start in 2024. And if this year goes bad, Jones gets cut and there is a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 and everyone moves on.
The hope is that we draft a rookie quarterback
And Jones is holding a clipboard this year as not to risk the injury guarantee for 2025
If what the Giants get from the deal is one half of good football against the Cardinals for 82M, I'll make it my life's mission for that mistake never to be forgotten.
- sign for $20M+/yr
- after playing 15+ games
- and throwing less than 20 TDs
there hasn't been another QB to sign for even $10M+/yr after playing 12+ games & throwing only 15 TDs (as Jones did)
Daniel Jones is the *only QB in the modern passing era* to play 10+ games for 3 consecutive years and throw fewer TDs than games played every year:
2020: 14 games played… 11 pass TDs
2021: 11 games played… 10 pass TDs
2022: 16 games played… 15 pass TDs
If Schoen doubles-down on Jones this off-season, the Jones contract should be viewed as the worst in Giants history.
A few other posters have expressed this and I agree. If Schoen made this error by re-upping with Jones, it's very hard to trust him picking a QB in the draft.
His seat isn't hot. It's an inferno.
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as one of the worst in league history.
If Schoen doubles-down on Jones this off-season, the Jones contract should be viewed as the worst in Giants history.
A few other posters have expressed this and I agree. If Schoen made this error by re-upping with Jones, it's very hard to trust him picking a QB in the draft.
His seat isn't hot. It's an inferno.
Well find out. I'm more worried about Daboll's evaluation than Schoen's. The Giants are a committee so there will be multiple voices on the decision just like it was with Jones. And to be fair, just like it was with Gettleman too.
Where we disagree, I fully expect the Giants to draft a QB high or come away with one of the top six QB prospects.
Barring a complete disaster, Schoen/Daboll will get this offseason and next to be competing at the top end of the NFC by 2025.
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as one of the worst in league history.
If what the Giants get from the deal is one half of good football against the Cardinals for 82M, I'll make it my life's mission for that mistake never to be forgotten.
You're right. But, I just don't think anyone will care if Bo Nix is leading an offense which is throwing for 30 TD's per year.
They have to nail the draft and free agency. Winning 5 games next season will get them both fired. That's just how it is these days.
What I want to see from Schoen is 1) the ability to move off of mistakes as quickly as possible 2) a pattern of successful moves.
He's made some mistakes. Jones, Glowinksi, Waller, potentially Neal.
I think too many managers in all walks of life conflate impatience with reluctance.
You can move off a decision quickly if you have the evidence to believe you were wrong. You can't always wait for proof.
What I want to see from Schoen is 1) the ability to move off of mistakes as quickly as possible 2) a pattern of successful moves.
He's made some mistakes. Jones, Glowinksi, Waller, potentially Neal.
I think too many managers in all walks of life conflate impatience with reluctance.
You can move off a decision quickly if you have the evidence to believe you were wrong. You can't always wait for proof.
This is an extremely pivotal offseason. I think the actions between March 13th and April 27th will determine whether this regime is successful.
Where I disagree with some is the downplaying of injuries. The fact Jones only played in 4 full games due to another neck injury and ACL for a running QB is significant. When you look at someone like Penix who is reported to possibly fall due to his medicals, I'm not sure why it wouldn't impact the decision around drafting a QB and Jones. And then add in the escape hatch after *THIS* season.
They have to nail the draft and free agency. Winning 5 games next season will get them both fired. That's just how it is these days.
If the Giants pivot away from Jones in 2024 by going with a rookie, I think the base is smart enough to be more measured with expectations.
Look at Murray, he was back running the ball with the same effectiveness the next season after his ACL.
Look at Murray, he was back running the ball with the same effectiveness the next season after his ACL.
I agree with that. And I assume they are on the fence because the contract Jones got was more like than love. We'll see though. As bw has said, we'll find out in the month and a half window outlined above. Maybe sooner, if NYG trades up in early March.
Look at Murray, he was back running the ball with the same effectiveness the next season after his ACL.
Murray had missed two games his entire career before that injury. Jones’ injury history is much more than just the ACL. I don’t think anyone would be holding one injury against him.
the idea that gm/hc need to be tied to the hip is silly. the gm in a lot of ways runs the organization to carry out the vision of the head coach and his staff based on the schemes they are running. daboll may end up succeeding for all the reasons that attracted schoen in the first place, or he may fail because he had a few flaws that ended up holding him back, but either way joe schoen has the experience of what worked and what didnt over what will then be 3 years. starting from scratch again purges all that.
so unless schoen does something catastrophic i dont think you want to have to start over again with another total franchise overhaul at all levels. whatever happens with daboll in year 3, he's still been the best hire the nyg made this decade. if he ends up not being the guy so be it, hopefully schoen is smart enough to see wherever daboll has failed and bring in someone better.
the idea that gm/hc need to be tied to the hip is silly. the gm in a lot of ways runs the organization to carry out the vision of the head coach and his staff based on the schemes they are running. daboll may end up succeeding for all the reasons that attracted schoen in the first place, or he may fail because he had a few flaws that ended up holding him back, but either way joe schoen has the experience of what worked and what didnt over what will then be 3 years. starting from scratch again purges all that.
so unless schoen does something catastrophic i dont think you want to have to start over again with another total franchise overhaul at all levels. whatever happens with daboll in year 3, he's still been the best hire the nyg made this decade. if he ends up not being the guy so be it, hopefully schoen is smart enough to see wherever daboll has failed and bring in someone better.
I see no world where Schoen gets less time than Gettleman. Schoen will most certainly get another swing at HC if Daboll bombs.
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Sean, I think if management is on the fence with Jones, the injuries might be the straw. But if they aren't on the fence, and simply just like and believe in him, I don't think they are opinion changing injuries.
Look at Murray, he was back running the ball with the same effectiveness the next season after his ACL.
Murray had missed two games his entire career before that injury. Jones’ injury history is much more than just the ACL. I don’t think anyone would be holding one injury against him.
Let's set his ACL aside, given it's not of the hold against variety.
Is there any evidence his neck injury is of the hold against variety?
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and rightfully so depending on how the team does. in year 3 he owns the record.
the idea that gm/hc need to be tied to the hip is silly. the gm in a lot of ways runs the organization to carry out the vision of the head coach and his staff based on the schemes they are running. daboll may end up succeeding for all the reasons that attracted schoen in the first place, or he may fail because he had a few flaws that ended up holding him back, but either way joe schoen has the experience of what worked and what didnt over what will then be 3 years. starting from scratch again purges all that.
so unless schoen does something catastrophic i dont think you want to have to start over again with another total franchise overhaul at all levels. whatever happens with daboll in year 3, he's still been the best hire the nyg made this decade. if he ends up not being the guy so be it, hopefully schoen is smart enough to see wherever daboll has failed and bring in someone better.
I see no world where Schoen gets less time than Gettleman. Schoen will most certainly get another swing at HC if Daboll bombs.
"how long did we give the previous failure" is not how anyone actually makes decisions.
in my view schoen done a pretty good job. he has attracted seemingly in demand people to work under him (brown, cowden) and i would already call the daboll hire a success even if he goes down in flames in year 3. at minimum the fact that he earned a year 3 was a major improvement over the prior 3 hires. so the only way schoen gets fired is if there's something behind the scenes that's broken in how the organization is running but i dont really see anything that would indicate that to be the case.
I hate the idea that Daboll's job security depends on 2024. My preference would be that they give him a contract extension now. If firing Daboll after a 6-11 2024 is a possibility they should have fired him this offseason. Either you believe in the guy or you don't.
the idea that gm/hc need to be tied to the hip is silly. the gm in a lot of ways runs the organization to carry out the vision of the head coach and his staff based on the schemes they are running. daboll may end up succeeding for all the reasons that attracted schoen in the first place, or he may fail because he had a few flaws that ended up holding him back, but either way joe schoen has the experience of what worked and what didnt over what will then be 3 years. starting from scratch again purges all that.
so unless schoen does something catastrophic i dont think you want to have to start over again with another total franchise overhaul at all levels. whatever happens with daboll in year 3, he's still been the best hire the nyg made this decade. if he ends up not being the guy so be it, hopefully schoen is smart enough to see wherever daboll has failed and bring in someone better.
Anybody with half a brain knows that Daboll has a depleted squad. It is Schoen's job (and the personnel department) job to put players on the field for Daboll.
He won year one with a worse squad than year two, and year two went south because of massive injuries and a much tougher schedule. But the fact the players continued to show up on Sundays is a feather in his cap.
The biggest ding in Daboll's defense is the full support he gave Jones after 2022. But that is a shared eff up with Schoen. You could argue carrying Johnson as OL coach was almost as bad.
I am pretty certain that unless the team revolts or he is found to be a serial killer this is not a make or break year for Daboll.
That's bizarre to me. It suggests Schoen is doing his job better than Daboll. Okay, but based on what?
Aside from being better looking, more articulate, and younger than Gettleman, I fail to see much of a difference in their performances building a team.
Daboll coached the team to the playoffs in 2022 with largely Gettleman's players.
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which of course sets up a scenario where Schoen and the next head coach aren't necessarily aligned.
That's bizarre to me. It suggests Schoen is doing his job better than Daboll. Okay, but based on what?
Aside from being better looking, more articulate, and younger than Gettleman, I fail to see much of a difference in their performances building a team.
Daboll coached the team to the playoffs in 2022 with largely Gettleman's players.
It's not what I think should be the case, it's just based on how I think we all think the Giants view the GM position vs. head coach.
My preference would be for GM/head coach to sink or swim together, and to be given a little bit longer timeframe (5-6 years) to build and install their program.
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In comment 16402577 christian said:
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Sean, I think if management is on the fence with Jones, the injuries might be the straw. But if they aren't on the fence, and simply just like and believe in him, I don't think they are opinion changing injuries.
Look at Murray, he was back running the ball with the same effectiveness the next season after his ACL.
Murray had missed two games his entire career before that injury. Jones’ injury history is much more than just the ACL. I don’t think anyone would be holding one injury against him.
Let's set his ACL aside, given it's not of the hold against variety.
Is there any evidence his neck injury is of the hold against variety?
I have no idea whether the neck injury is long term. That’s not the point. The point is he is often unavailable because of numerous injuries throughout his career. Does this look like a guy you can trust to stay healthy. This list doesn’t even cover the neck and ACL injuries from ‘23:
Dec 1, 2019 Pedal Ankle (high) Sprain Grade 3 Jones suffered a high ankle sprain in a Week 13 loss to the Green Bay Packers.
Nov 29, 2020 Thigh Hamstring Strain Grade 2 In the third quarter of Cincinnati's game during Week 12's season, Jones suffered a right hamstring injury.
Dec 13, 2020 Pedal Ankle Sprain Grade 2 During the Giants' defeat to the Arizona Cardinals, Jones had an ankle injury. He didn't attend a game.
Dec 16, 2020 Thigh Hamstring Strain Grade 2 Jones had a recurrence of the right hamstring issue that had prevented him from running effectively against the Arizona Cardinalss
Oct 10, 2021 Head Cranial Concussion Grade 1 In the game against Dallas in Week 5, Jones sustained a concussion. For the following game, he received clearance.
Nov 28, 2021 Cervical Neck Strain Jones sustained a neck injury that would terminate his season during the Giants' victory against the Eagles in Week 12. He missed six games after being placed on IR.
Oct 2, 2022 Pedal Ankle Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1
When someone tries to tell you who they are, believe them.
I hate the idea that Daboll's job security depends on 2024. My preference would be that they give him a contract extension now. If firing Daboll after a 6-11 2024 is a possibility they should have fired him this offseason. Either you believe in the guy or you don't.
I agree with this completely. Especially since he'll be involved in the QB evaluation in the draft.
You can't draft a QB at 6 and then fire Daboll after 2024. Now it's a forced marriage with the next HC and the drafted QB. We've all seen that movie.
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which of course sets up a scenario where Schoen and the next head coach aren't necessarily aligned.
That's bizarre to me. It suggests Schoen is doing his job better than Daboll. Okay, but based on what?
Aside from being better looking, more articulate, and younger than Gettleman, I fail to see much of a difference in their performances building a team.
Daboll coached the team to the playoffs in 2022 with largely Gettleman's players.
All Schoen has done thus far is maintain Gettleman's direction. He's yet to create his own direction. He's largely an incomplete right now. This offseason will be the tell.
Anybody with half a brain knows that Daboll has a depleted squad. It is Schoen's job (and the personnel department) job to put players on the field for Daboll.
He won year one with a worse squad than year two, and year two went south because of massive injuries and a much tougher schedule. But the fact the players continued to show up on Sundays is a feather in his cap.
The biggest ding in Daboll's defense is the full support he gave Jones after 2022. But that is a shared eff up with Schoen. You could argue carrying Johnson as OL coach was almost as bad.
I am pretty certain that unless the team revolts or he is found to be a serial killer this is not a make or break year for Daboll.
they work for the same team with the same w/l record so everything is a "shared eff up".
head coaches jobs are to win on sundays and 'depleted squad' isnt an excuse. look at the job sean mcvay did this year with a team full of non-first round rookies and injuries to all his star players. any year can be make or break for any head coach. playing above the talent level makes coaches, playing at or below talent level breaks them. daboll has done more of the former than the latter which is a credit to both him and schoen, but certainly not enough that his year 4 is guaranteed.
You think the Giants believe his prior, healed injuries foretell his future availibilty?
Some good so far, but that eval/contract decision was to way too off and left a mark on both.
They need to wake up and get this team moving with a new QB.
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which of course sets up a scenario where Schoen and the next head coach aren't necessarily aligned.
I hate the idea that Daboll's job security depends on 2024. My preference would be that they give him a contract extension now. If firing Daboll after a 6-11 2024 is a possibility they should have fired him this offseason. Either you believe in the guy or you don't.
I agree with this completely. Especially since he'll be involved in the QB evaluation in the draft.
You can't draft a QB at 6 and then fire Daboll after 2024. Now it's a forced marriage with the next HC and the drafted QB. We've all seen that movie.
'alignment' on its' own is a useless bumper sticker. in no world do keep lame duck personnel around just to preserve alignment, and similarly in no world do you get rid of someone if you think they are an asset just to create the idea of alignment when getting hired at the same time doesn't necessarily make anyone more or less aligned on whatever the future course of action is. sean mcvay inherited jared goff and 0 draft picks. he made it work with less alignment to snead than jeff fisher had.
if they move on from daboll the path is simple, hire the most competent head coach you can and align the organization around that coaches vision (and it may be that there's a proven HC who wants that in writing as reid/carroll/harbough did when they were hired, if so you do that).
if daboll gets fired presumably they are back in the top 5 so if that new coach wants a new qb just like kingsbury/kyler/rosen you do it.
The Waller acquisition looks all kinds of bad right now.
I have no idea whether the neck injury is long term. That’s not the point. The point is he is often unavailable because of numerous injuries throughout his career. Does this look like a guy you can trust to stay healthy. This list doesn’t even cover the neck and ACL injuries from ‘23:
Dec 1, 2019 Pedal Ankle (high) Sprain Grade 3 Jones suffered a high ankle sprain in a Week 13 loss to the Green Bay Packers.
Nov 29, 2020 Thigh Hamstring Strain Grade 2 In the third quarter of Cincinnati's game during Week 12's season, Jones suffered a right hamstring injury.
Dec 13, 2020 Pedal Ankle Sprain Grade 2 During the Giants' defeat to the Arizona Cardinals, Jones had an ankle injury. He didn't attend a game.
Dec 16, 2020 Thigh Hamstring Strain Grade 2 Jones had a recurrence of the right hamstring issue that had prevented him from running effectively against the Arizona Cardinalss
Oct 10, 2021 Head Cranial Concussion Grade 1 In the game against Dallas in Week 5, Jones sustained a concussion. For the following game, he received clearance.
Nov 28, 2021 Cervical Neck Strain Jones sustained a neck injury that would terminate his season during the Giants' victory against the Eagles in Week 12. He missed six games after being placed on IR.
Oct 2, 2022 Pedal Ankle Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1
When someone tries to tell you who they are, believe them.
There's also a lot of evidence that Jones tends to rush back from injury before he's ready. The Cardinals game in 2020, the Rams game in 2021, and the Raiders game in 2023. This is what I'm going to have in mind when news comes out that he's on track to start in week 1.
My guess is Jones is cleared for practice in mid-August and misses a few games to start the year.
The Waller acquisition looks all kinds of bad right now.
I had no problem with the move and think the biggest issue with Waller is our quarterbacks suck at passing the ball.
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There are some high profile misses.
The Waller acquisition looks all kinds of bad right now.
I had no problem with the move and think the biggest issue with Waller is our quarterbacks suck at passing the ball.
his persistent presence on the injured list and missing games is his own problem and the biggest one.
he played pretty well later in the season after he came back from the injuries (when he wasnt out with some new ones) but early in the season he had some bad games by his own admission (SF dropped like 3 catchable 3rd downs, the last play vs BUF).
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There are some high profile misses.
The Waller acquisition looks all kinds of bad right now.
I had no problem with the move and think the biggest issue with Waller is our quarterbacks suck at passing the ball.
I tend to agree with this. If Jones is the quarterback it doesn't matter if Kelce is the TE; the passing offense is going to struggle.
And that's on Schoen and Daboll. They either liked Jones enough to pay him or were unable to talk ownership out of it. Either scenario is a failure.
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There are some high profile misses.
The Waller acquisition looks all kinds of bad right now.
I had no problem with the move and think the biggest issue with Waller is our quarterbacks suck at passing the ball.
No problem with the move either. But Waller has proven that he is as soft as they come at the TE position.
When he is not hurt, he is the process of getting hurt or losing on a contested catch or being outmuscled on the edges with poor uninspiring blocking efforts.
All the way back in September, BBI's brightest wrote:
BBI - ( New Window )
All the way back in September, BBI's brightest wrote:
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But the only major move to upgrade weapons was trading for Waller, an over 30 frequently injured tight end. Our two best weapons are two guys who are injury-prone (and the other--Barkley--is likely to take a step back from 2022).
BBI - ( New Window )
it wasn't far off and both ended up costing them 3rd round picks.
golladay year 1 - 14g, 37 rec 521, 0 td, 14.1 ypc
waller year 1 - 12g, 52 rec 552 yds, 1 td, 10 ypc
i was fine with the waller gamble but as it turned out there were better options in similar price range. hopkins as it turns out would have saved them a draft pick if they'd been more patient.
outside of okereke they have not done a great job spending $.
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Waller was a high probability bet to miss a handful of games, it was sort of the cost of doing business. Waller was the right move for a team in the Giants position. A surprising playoff team bereft of weapons and in need if them to see if they could: a) take another step b) see if the QB could improve as a passer with better surroundings. It was not a $20 million AAV gamble on broken down Kenny Golladay.
All the way back in September, BBI's brightest wrote:
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But the only major move to upgrade weapons was trading for Waller, an over 30 frequently injured tight end. Our two best weapons are two guys who are injury-prone (and the other--Barkley--is likely to take a step back from 2022).
BBI - ( New Window )
it wasn't far off and both ended up costing them 3rd round picks.
golladay year 1 - 14g, 37 rec 521, 0 td, 14.1 ypc
waller year 1 - 12g, 52 rec 552 yds, 1 td, 10 ypc
i was fine with the waller gamble but as it turned out there were better options in similar price range. hopkins as it turns out would have saved them a draft pick if they'd been more patient.
outside of okereke they have not done a great job spending $.
Extending Dex and Thomas wasn’t a good job of spending money?
Okereke was the only high priced FA they have signed to date
And yes….the Jones is extension was a mistake
But is it not a good use of money?
The flip side to that is the Jones contract which deserves criticism
Also….i would say they haven’t been overly aggressive in the FA market as Okereke has been their only big signing to date
You do at 1925 NY Giants Drive
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When someone tries to tell you who they are, believe them.
You think the Giants believe his prior, healed injuries foretell his future availibilty?
Of course it does. Why the hell wouldn’t it? The guy gets injured far too often. Hoping and praying it doesn’t happen in the future is a fools errand. The Giants also ignore Wallers injury history. How’d that work out?
You think the Giants believe his prior, healed injuries foretell his future availibilty?
Of course it does. Why the hell wouldn’t it? The guy gets injured far too often. Hoping and praying it doesn’t happen in the future is a fools errand. The Giants also ignore Wallers injury history. How’d that work out?
It appears Waller has a nerve injury that they missed, and is a potentially chronic issue.
Do you believe Jones has any potentially chronic issues that are likely to return or diminish his ability to play?
This is Schoen's first real chance as GM to bring in a legitimate QB via the draft. I think it would be very foolish to not take advantage of it. It's why I'll be increasingly shocked if the Giants do not draft a QB within the top 40 picks.
Extending Dex and Thomas wasn’t a good job of spending money?
Okereke was the only high priced FA they have signed to date
And yes….the Jones is extension was a mistake
i was talking about external additions. glowinski was their biggest move in 2022, waller and okereke their 2 big ones in 2023. 1 out of 3 is not ideal.
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When someone tries to tell you who they are, believe them.
You think the Giants believe his prior, healed injuries foretell his future availibilty?
Of course it does. Why the hell wouldn’t it? The guy gets injured far too often. Hoping and praying it doesn’t happen in the future is a fools errand. The Giants also ignore Wallers injury history. How’d that work out?
It appears Waller has a nerve injury that they missed, and is a potentially chronic issue.
Do you believe Jones has any potentially chronic issues that are likely to return or diminish his ability to play?
I believe he’s unavailable far too often and they would be idiots to just assume that he’s miraculously going to be less injured as he gets older.
I also find it unbelievable that you apparently have that same assuming/hoping/wishing/praying mindset as well. You deserve this team trotting Jones out again and then you and the team can act all shocked when he’s missing time due to injury. Absolutely incredible…
Yes and no
There were serious cap issues before JS took over
With some restructures we could have around 40 million for this year….which is fine
Yes….DJ’s contract messed things up a bit, but hopefully next year when he is gone…the cap numbers can be manipulated enough to add more talent via FA
I just don't believe in the hocus pocus injury proneness thing. There are injuries that are chronic or create a susceptibility for further injury, and then injuries that heal and don't present further risk.
Unless Jones has something that falls into the former category, I think it's a little silly to think the Giants are worried about this health.
Now just to be clear, I don't know. I am just basing this on the information available. Maybe they are concerned about something longterm.
I wouldn't say Schoen ignored Waller's medical history.
But it definitely seemed like say an acquisition of hope and fingers crossed.
And talk about the illusion created by preseason. In the lone game Jones played, he and Waller looked unstoppable.
But then the real games started...
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Extending Dex and Thomas wasn’t a good job of spending money?
Okereke was the only high priced FA they have signed to date
And yes….the Jones is extension was a mistake
i was talking about external additions. glowinski was their biggest move in 2022, waller and okereke their 2 big ones in 2023. 1 out of 3 is not ideal.
Cool….i get that….bur Waller was a trade and I don’t think anyone at the time had an issue with it….
Glow was a stop gap and he’s gone very soon
Would hope to spend on an OG this off season
I just don't believe in the hocus pocus injury proneness thing. There are injuries that are chronic or create a susceptibility for further injury, and then injuries that heal and don't present further risk.
Unless Jones has something that falls into the former category, I think it's a little silly to think the Giants are worried about this health.
Now just to be clear, I don't know. I am just basing this on the information available. Maybe they are concerned about something longterm.
This is unscientific but I think there are guys who are just injury prone and bound to miss a few games. Jones strikes me as that type.
I think he runs a little reckless sometimes, too, which is a contributing factor--especially when he's struggling.
You think the Giants believe his prior, healed injuries foretell his future availibilty?
Of course it does. Why the hell wouldn’t it? The guy gets injured far too often. Hoping and praying it doesn’t happen in the future is a fools errand. The Giants also ignore Wallers injury history. How’d that work out?
It appears Waller has a nerve injury that they missed, and is a potentially chronic issue.
Do you believe Jones has any potentially chronic issues that are likely to return or diminish his ability to play?
I believe he’s unavailable far too often and they would be idiots to just assume that he’s miraculously going to be less injured as he gets older.
I also find it unbelievable that you apparently have that same assuming/hoping/wishing/praying mindset as well. You deserve this team trotting Jones out again and then you and the team can act all shocked when he’s missing time due to injury. Absolutely incredible…
Like i've posted to you and Sean repeatedly on this topic -- I am trying to put myself in Schoen's shoes and make an educated guess on what he might do.
If Jones doesn't have the variety of injury that causes a longterm risk or propensity for recurrence, I don't think it's something his factoring heavily.
I don't think a sprained ankle or hamstring injury several years ago is a major factor in determining whether the Giants should effectively give up on Jones.
I think he runs a little reckless sometimes, too, which is a contributing factor--especially when he's struggling.
I think I have a black cat and a broom you'd be interested in = )
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Because they royally screwed the cap
Yes and no
There were serious cap issues before JS took over
With some restructures we could have around 40 million for this year….which is fine
Yes….DJ’s contract messed things up a bit, but hopefully next year when he is gone…the cap numbers can be manipulated enough to add more talent via FA
It’s not yes and no. They were hamstrung by the salary cap the last two offseason. That’s why they haven’t been overly aggressive
One of the few times we disagree. Schoen has made a number of big commitments - Jones, Thomas, Lawrence, Okereke, and Waller. This isn't a guy operating with his hands tied.
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It’s not yes and no. They were hamstrung by the salary cap the last two offseason. That’s why they haven’t been overly aggressive
One of the few times we disagree. Schoen has made a number of big commitments - Jones, Thomas, Lawrence, Okereke, and Waller. This isn't a guy operating with his hands tied.
Three of those moves opened up more cap space though. Waller only had a $4 million cap hit in 2023
Jones will need to play well enough to legitimately earn the starting job and get 2025 here. I believe both Schoen & Daboll know they need a much deeper QB room and a more durable one as well.
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This is unscientific but I think there are guys who are just injury prone and bound to miss a few games. Jones strikes me as that type.
I think he runs a little reckless sometimes, too, which is a contributing factor--especially when he's struggling.
I think I have a black cat and a broom you'd be interested in = )
Haha!
I prefer dogs, though...
I don't have a good analytical framework for thinking about injuries. You can make the same argument I just made about Joe Burrow.
One of the few times we disagree. Schoen has made a number of big commitments - Jones, Thomas, Lawrence, Okereke, and Waller. This isn't a guy operating with his hands tied.
Three of those moves opened up more cap space though. Waller only had a $4 million cap hit in 2023
What I mean is that measuring the degree of aggressiveness in spending isn't a 1-year view. We both know teams build their roster on a 3-4 year accounting horizon.
Schoen has committed big money, in guarantees and overall.
I think the perception he hasn't spent stems from the fact a lot of the money was given to current players, and not big splash UFAs.
I think he runs a little reckless sometimes, too, which is a contributing factor--especially when he's struggling.
I think I have a black cat and a broom you'd be interested in = )
Haha!
I prefer dogs, though...
I don't have a good analytical framework for thinking about injuries. You can make the same argument I just made about Joe Burrow.
One thing I agree with in your previous post is the propensity to play recklessly. If memory serves me right, he jammed up hi hamstring, got the concussion, and hurt his neck the first time in plays where he could have just committed to sliding.
But the 2023 injuries were not fault of his at all. He hurt his neck on a play where the defender blew the doors off the left tackle so badly, he literally cried afterwards.
The torn ACL came on a play where the guard got beat so badly, the tight end who tried to help made the tackle.
It makes me itchy to be defending Jones, but that shit last year was not on him.
golladay got paid $40m for 2 seasons (and that's how much $ hit the nyg cap in total).
waller got about $14m year 1 cash.
year 2 is another 10.5m salary + 1.5m worth of bonus incentives.
the golladay contract was worse but i dont think the ball parks are all that different. waller played poorly enough that it's a real question whether or not it's worth cutting him to save $6.7m in 2024.
The torn ACL came on a play where the guard got beat so badly, the tight end who tried to help made the tackle.
It makes me itchy to be defending Jones, but that shit last year was not on him.
Not what happened, and since I've devoted some time to the play, I'll elaborate.
Watch the right guard, Bredeson, on the play; he blocks the DT and does all he can practically be expected to do on the play.
Crosby, who brought the pressure, is an end; he lined up facing the RT, Neal, and a potential double team from the right TE, Cager.
Crosby left them both by giving up his edge and doing a looping stunt up the center gap. Bellinger, the other TE, who had lined up in the backfield, had a chance to block Crosby, but ran past him to get into a route.
Crosby's stunt took enough time that Jones had a chance to hit the open Bellinger over the middle. But he hesitated, passed it up, and Crosby was on him.
Because Crosby had abandoned his edge, Jones had a second chance to make something happen rolling to his right, but he was contained by Cager, who, understandably, was trying to be helpful by picking off Crosby.
No one person in the Giants' blocking scheme can be blamed for the outcome on that play. Not every play will go to script and good QBs make positive things happen.
youtube - ( New Window )
The Waller acquisition looks all kinds of bad right now.
Does it though? They got him for relatively nothing and have no long term tie to him.
That was the whole reason we liked the move in the first place. So if he gets hurt, you rinse your hands of it and move on.
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This is unscientific but I think there are guys who are just injury prone and bound to miss a few games. Jones strikes me as that type.
I think he runs a little reckless sometimes, too, which is a contributing factor--especially when he's struggling.
I think I have a black cat and a broom you'd be interested in = )
Haha!
I prefer dogs, though...
I don't have a good analytical framework for thinking about injuries. You can make the same argument I just made about Joe Burrow.
One thing I agree with in your previous post is the propensity to play recklessly. If memory serves me right, he jammed up hi hamstring, got the concussion, and hurt his neck the first time in plays where he could have just committed to sliding.
But the 2023 injuries were not fault of his at all. He hurt his neck on a play where the defender blew the doors off the left tackle so badly, he literally cried afterwards.
The torn ACL came on a play where the guard got beat so badly, the tight end who tried to help made the tackle.
It makes me itchy to be defending Jones, but that shit last year was not on him.
Well the terrible start to the season was just as much on him as the OL, so I’ll assume you’re solely speaking to the injuries occurrences?
The Vegas injury was a freak play and sequence to a degree but Jones looked totally unprepared to play both mentally and physically throwing the ball.
JMS or Bredeson likely blew the responsibility on the stunt, but regardless Bredeson got his doors blown off.
From the 22 video you can see Bredeson nearly get lifted off his feet.
Does it though? They got him for relatively nothing and have no long term tie to him.
That was the whole reason we liked the move in the first place. So if he gets hurt, you rinse your hands of it and move on.
They traded a top 100 pick and gave him $12.1M, for what amounted to a very pedestrian season. I wouldn't call that relatively nothing.
Well the terrible start to the season was just as much on him as the OL, so I’ll assume you’re solely speaking to the injuries occurrences?
The Vegas injury was a freak play and sequence to a degree but Jones looked totally unprepared to play both mentally and physically throwing the ball.
Just to be clear, I want the Giants to replace Jones yesterday. I'm simply trying to put myself in the shoes of the GM who did in fact sign him to a multi-year deal.
I doubt Schoen assigns blame for the two injuries to Jones. The Van Ginkel sack came on ridiculously fast. The Crosby sack is the product of Bredeson getting picked up and pushed into the pocket.
On the Van Ginkel sack Jones had no opportunity to get rid of the ball, on the Crosby sack he did. But neither is a play where Jones was sitting back there recklessly.
The reason the move was celebrated at the time, and I mean by analysts who cover the sport, not fans, was because it wasn't a lot to give up for a productive player when healthy. The caveat was always health and we knew that on the front end.
It might still not work out, but you traded the Toney pick for him.
Changing perspectives on the trade now because of dissatisfaction and turning it into some blunder of a move isn't honest. Everyone knew he was an injury risk.
The reason the move was celebrated at the time, and I mean by analysts who cover the sport, not fans, was because it wasn't a lot to give up for a productive player when healthy. The caveat was always health and we knew that on the front end.
It might still not work out, but you traded the Toney pick for him.
Changing perspectives on the trade now because of dissatisfaction and turning it into some blunder of a move isn't honest. Everyone knew he was an injury risk.
Schoen restructured his 2023 salary into a restructure bonus, which is what created the deferred money and the remaining dollars to account for. I'm not concerned about the dead money if he's cut, that's included in the 12.1M I quoted.
All I'm saying is he paid him top 10ish money for one year (so far), and gave up a top 100 pick. That's simply not nothing.
Half this site went apoplectic (me included) when Gettleman signed Kyle Rudolph with a known injury, and that cost no picks and 7M.
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It makes me itchy to be defending Jones, but that shit last year was not on him.
Well the terrible start to the season was just as much on him as the OL, so I’ll assume you’re solely speaking to the injuries occurrences?
The Vegas injury was a freak play and sequence to a degree but Jones looked totally unprepared to play both mentally and physically throwing the ball.
Just to be clear, I want the Giants to replace Jones yesterday. I'm simply trying to put myself in the shoes of the GM who did in fact sign him to a multi-year deal.
I doubt Schoen assigns blame for the two injuries to Jones. The Van Ginkel sack came on ridiculously fast. The Crosby sack is the product of Bredeson getting picked up and pushed into the pocket.
On the Van Ginkel sack Jones had no opportunity to get rid of the ball, on the Crosby sack he did. But neither is a play where Jones was sitting back there recklessly.
Oh in no way do I blame Jones for those injuries. It’s football. But Schoen has to factor the incidence of those injuries, the excessive cost/per capita importance of the position, and going forward in figuring out a new calculus.
You think the Giants had a decent line in 2022?
Your multi-dimensional ability to be wrong is astounding.
His first neck injury was from head butting a tackler in the open field. His 2019 ankle injury came at the bottom of the pile after running for a first down. Joe exactly are those the olines fault?
Oh in no way do I blame Jones for those injuries. It’s football. But Schoen has to factor the incidence of those injuries, the excessive cost/per capita importance of the position, and going forward in figuring out a new calculus.
I think there are two independent calculations.
1) What's the general likelihood of a quarterback getting hurt behind a line that allows the most fast pressures in the league? I'd imagine it's appreciably higher than say if that line gave up the average amount.
2) What's the general likelihood of Daniel Jones playing 17 games and producing in the top 3rd of the counting and efficiency stats *if* the line achieves the above?
I'd imagine when weighing both those factors, the logical outcome is improve the line and replace the quarterback.
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On the Van Ginkel sack Jones had no opportunity to get rid of the ball, on the Crosby sack he did. But neither is a play where Jones was sitting back there recklessly.
Oh in no way do I blame Jones for those injuries. It’s football. But Schoen has to factor the incidence of those injuries, the excessive cost/per capita importance of the position, and going forward in figuring out a new calculus.
I think there are two independent calculations.
1) What's the general likelihood of a quarterback getting hurt behind a line that allows the most fast pressures in the league? I'd imagine it's appreciably higher than say if that line gave up the average amount.
2) What's the general likelihood of Daniel Jones playing 17 games and producing in the top 3rd of the counting and efficiency stats *if* the line achieves the above?
I'd imagine when weighing both those factors, the logical outcome is improve the line and replace the quarterback.
Yes and this where I think the 2024 pivot point presents that.
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Ten tight ends in the NFL make 10 million a year or more, including Waller. There's also an out from the deal in 24 that they can exit with 7m in dead cap. Again, not a major commitment.
The reason the move was celebrated at the time, and I mean by analysts who cover the sport, not fans, was because it wasn't a lot to give up for a productive player when healthy. The caveat was always health and we knew that on the front end.
It might still not work out, but you traded the Toney pick for him.
Changing perspectives on the trade now because of dissatisfaction and turning it into some blunder of a move isn't honest. Everyone knew he was an injury risk.
Schoen restructured his 2023 salary into a restructure bonus, which is what created the deferred money and the remaining dollars to account for. I'm not concerned about the dead money if he's cut, that's included in the 12.1M I quoted.
All I'm saying is he paid him top 10ish money for one year (so far), and gave up a top 100 pick. That's simply not nothing.
Half this site went apoplectic (me included) when Gettleman signed Kyle Rudolph with a known injury, and that cost no picks and 7M.
That's why I said *relatively nothing*.
Regarding Kyle Rudolph, it was really, really evident he was a washed up player when they signed him. He hadn't done anything in four years.
I think Jones has a fatal flaw, which is the speed at which he makes the right decision. And the only way to adjust for that is a really good line and a really good run game.
If you're going to go chase a really good line and a really good run game, you should also go chase a really good QB while you're at it.
That's why I said *relatively nothing*.
Regarding Kyle Rudolph, it was really, really evident he was a washed up player when they signed him. He hadn't done anything in four years.
OK, so now that Darren Waller hasn't done anything for 3 years, how do you feel about the prospect of paying him 11.75M in New cash this year?
JMS or Bredeson likely blew the responsibility on the stunt, but regardless Bredeson got his doors blown off.
From the 22 video you can see Bredeson nearly get lifted off his feet.
I'll let the board judge. Bredeson takes on a strong bull rush and prevents his guy from getting to the QB. I suspect PFF gave him a good grade for the play. But I don't have their notes.
Bellinger is the one who had the chance to make the block. Also the one who had the chance to catch the pass Jones couldn't pull the trigger on.
The issue last year was the start of the season. Tough schedule combined with historically bad OL play (and poor QB play as well). Daboll righted the ship.
IMO Schoen needs to nail this draft. It’s been a mixed bag so far, though I do think he’s found better value on day 3 and waiver wire then what we’ve seen in the last decade plus. Belton, McFadden, Bellinger, Pinnock, + Riley and Hawkins I still think have a shot to develop.
This is why I think they do all they can to get a QB this draft, it buys them at least a year. If you look at the top 5 picks, AZ and LAC are not taking QB’s, so it comes down to what NE does. If Kraft wants to win now, and he’ll be 83 on opening day, it’s not a stretch to think they’ll make a run at Kirk Cousins. I don’t see any of the other FA QB’s moving the needle enough, but Cousins could make NE a playoff team, especially throwing to MH Jr.