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| Art Stapleton @art_stapleton The easy thing is to just keep people on the hot seat, keep firing them when they don’t win and it’s a vicious cycle that has engulfed this entire franchise going on 13 years and counting. Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll don’t belong on the hot seat right now. Yes, there’s pressure to succeed and make smart decisions this year. They are accountable and on the clock. But barring a total disaster, this should not be a make or break season. Let it play out, see where they are and assess at the end of 2024. The perception is what it is, but I’m not falling for the banana in the tail pipe. |
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| Art Stapleton @art_stapleton Giants have poisoned their own fan base and parts of their organization with all the bad decisions and losing that they’ve done for a decade. It’s such a warped sense of reality that in two years, one year that was praised, unbelievably across the league. Two years ago, the Giants hired one of the best candidates on the market for both their GM and head coaching jobs. Sooner or later, they’re going to have to let talented people work through mistakes, shortcomings, and overall incompetence that lingers from previous failed regimes. Get off the carousel, wake up and have some patience to see if they’re going to fail because of who they are, if they’re going to succeed because who they are and not because of what came before them. |
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Art Stapleton @art_stapleton The meddling stuff is folly. Fans want Mara to meddle when he doesn't, and if he doesn't, he gets ripped for not stepping in and meddling. He's the owner. He stays out of the way, but he's involved. He's not an ivory tower guy. Fans have seen him waiting in parking garages for his car at Town Hall. He flies commercial. As with any owner, there are good decisions and bad decisions, and Mara owns all of them - he signs off on it all, either verbally or just allowing it to happen. After Jerry Reese, Mara wanted a GM to be the voice for the football ops. Reese was not that guy. Thought he had that with Gettleman, and obviously we saw how that turned out. There's a reason why Mara has stepped into the background: he wants the GM to be the face. That's Joe Schoen. Mara will talk on league matters and give an occasional State of the Giants, but those are more rare because he would rather Schoen be that representative for the organization. |
And if there's one thing I hope Mara has learned, it's to not give four years to another guy in over his head.
If Schoen is prepared to bet his career on Daniel Jones, that's on him. He'll either be the genius who saw what virtually no one else saw. Or he'll be a frequent guest on a minor ESPN football show.
My opinion of Schoen not drafting a QB is not based on the contract.
It's because I think, until proven otherwise, that Schoen really believes in Jones as the QB to lead this team to big trophies.
And that nails it.
The overwhelming majority of the players who were key in the 2022 playoff season were Gettleman's players.
I feel like some people sort of just want to bury their heads in the sand and wait for results in X number of years rather than analyze process/decision making.
Personally, I struggle seeing the 'plan' here: Year one, it seemed like they expected a bad year, planned to replace Jones in 2023, didn't expect the playoffs. I'd point to Schoen's comments at the time of his hiring, the declining of Jones's fifth year option as evidence as this. Maybe I'm reading the comments/actions incorrectly, of course, but that's what I see.
Instead, they had a good year and rather than diagnose it properly, thought they could contend and made short-term investments to do so, which promptly blew up in their face. It was a really bad reading of the chess board.
I struggle to understand the plan from where we are today. Maybe their draft board gives them more options than I see as someone who just really follows draft talking heads.
The Giants have huge question marks at QB, RB, RT, both guards, and number one pass catcher on offense. On defense they have huge question marks at corner, defensive end, edge, and possibly safety.
And many of the above are positions Schoen has committed significant resources to try and address.
The Giants have huge question marks at QB, RB, RT, both guards, and number one pass catcher on offense. On defense they have huge question marks at corner, defensive end, edge, and possibly safety.
And many of the above are positions Schoen has committed significant resources to try and address.
That's a huge dilemma. Is it that guys like Thibs and Neal just aren't great or is it coaching or a combination of both? It's things like that where someone will ultimately have to fall on the sword. As fans, we really don't care what the reason is. We just want to see results. This is a results based business. If the results aren't there then someone will be held responsible. If they draft a QB and he shows signs then they'll get another year most likely even with a bad record unless it just becomes another shit show.
(I also like Thibs a ton, I think he's going to be a Pro Bowler)
Until we see how they plan to fix the QB position, we won’t know what their plan really is, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that at the moment. 2022 caught them by surprise and 2023 may have, we don’t really know for sure what they really thought the team could be. Did they think they’d compete for the division, or were they crossing their fingers and hoping they would? We don’t know.
The same people preaching patience, preached it with Gettleman and Golladay and get very sensitive about any criticism about the Giants. No GM is perfect, even the Patriots in their dynasty made mistakes here and there, but Schoen has made some mistakes.
The previous GM got 4 years and it was two years too long. It’s not unreasonable to think Schoen’s job could be in jeopardy or close to it after three years isn’t crazy to think. By this time next year the 2022 season will be 2 full calendar years away. The leash that granted Schoen and Daboll gets shorter the further away from it we get. They have to correct their mistakes in order to extend the leash.
It’s just the reality of the NFL though, you don’t get 5 years to prove it as a coach and GM - especially not after making what was a giant miscalculation in the Jones contract.
Agreed, if they don't right their wrongs by drafting a promising rookie QB then they are tying their own nooses by doubling down on their stupidity. I don't care what Mara publicly said, if you had the balls you would have franchised DJ and let Saquon test the market or at least let DJ test the open market before handing him a historic contract. The more I think about it the more infuriatingly idiotic it is. They should have known better and there is no Mara excuse, we need a GM with the balls and brawn to make intelligent decisions even if it isn't in alignment with the owner's preferences.
(I also like Thibs a ton, I think he's going to be a Pro Bowler)
I agree too. I really wanted Sauce but he wasn't an option. I don't blame Schoen for taking Thibs and Neal but ultimately they have to produce. Even if it is coaching that was the problem with the OL, it doesn't matter. We just want to see improvement. Even dating back to the Coughlin years, we always overachieved to win both SBs. Our best team was our 2008 team in terms of talent and dominance. It's been that long since we had a team that dominated during the season. We had that one team where we had DRC and Jenkins but that was short lived. This team cannot sustain success. We can say it is because we have changed GMs a fair amount. But would it have been better had we not? The one thing that I'll say and I said it before, an owner should NEVER tell a GM that he has to win or else. All it does is hinder the new GM because the mortgage will be mortgaged one way or another.
I’ll admit these days I’m only a postseason ranger fan, basketball keeps me too consumed November through the draft to focus on regular season hockey, but agree with everything - including it being a 3 year project. Next year is year 3, so even if they don’t end up losing their jobs next year - they’ll be at risk of losing them after year 4 if next year goes the way it appears it may.
‘23 off-season - give that player four years/$160M rather than the franchise tag
‘24 off-season - use 6th overall pick to replace that player? Sign a veteran off the scrap heap to replace that player? Run it back with that player?
And none of these decisions had anything to do with prior regimes. There were multiple ways this could have been handled differently.
How does all of this sit with you, Art?
Plenty of posters all of a sudden changed their mind and said oh actually Daniel Jones sucks.
Jones had a historically bad start to the year. He had the least amount of TDs to pass attempts over 100 since the invention of the forward pass. He only surpassed himself from 2020 where he threw just 2 TDs in the first 5 games and 113 pass attempts
‘23 off-season - give that player four years/$160M rather than the franchise tag
‘24 off-season - use 6th overall pick to replace that player? Sign a veteran off the scrap heap to replace that player? Run it back with that player?
And none of these decisions had anything to do with prior regimes. There were multiple ways this could have been handled differently.
How does all of this sit with you, Art?
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Great post. The QB position has been handled with complete incompetence by this regime. And I have WANTED to like Schoen and Daboll.
There is no scenario where the Giants don't look like fools. They either reverse themselves AGAIN or they stick with an injured QB who was awful when he was healthy.
Exactly, there are plenty examples of this over the years like Wentz in Philly for instance.
Yes, there is no precedent for that. It is ridiculous, but if they hit on one of the 4 top QBs all will be forgotten and we will have a lot of cap room for 2025-2030
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is the first quarterback to sign an extension with the team that declined his fifth-year option.
Yes, there is no precedent for that. It is ridiculous, but if they hit on one of the 4 top QBs all will be forgotten and we will have a lot of cap room for 2025-2030
I want them to take a top QB. But that would be quite the two years of back-and-forth decision-making. Which I fear is the reason they won't do it.
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In comment 16402354 PHX Giants Fan said:
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is the first quarterback to sign an extension with the team that declined his fifth-year option.
Yes, there is no precedent for that. It is ridiculous, but if they hit on one of the 4 top QBs all will be forgotten and we will have a lot of cap room for 2025-2030
I want them to take a top QB. But that would be quite the two years of back-and-forth decision-making. Which I fear is the reason they won't do it.
The ability to adapt and pivot is a sign of intelligence. I don't think fear of admitting a mistake in their actions will prevent them from righting their wrongs. I think they know if they don't do something to correct it in this draft then their futures are sleek. Many here share your sentiment and it is valid for sure. I also think they know if they get a promising young qb for Dabs n Co to hone in their system they buy themselves an extra year or two to improve the roster and better the team. If they stick with Jones without a backup plan, then they're sitting ducks. Schoen attended a lot of games for the top QB prospects in this draft. I really don't think he will avoid taking one if he likes him out of fear to admit a mistake or a penchant for DJ. I bet we get one if the top 4 QBs and I'm really hoping for Daniels or McCarthy personally.
Yep. It will all be forgotten. Teams overpay shitty QB's all the time. No one gives a fuck once the position is figured out. It has to happen THIS offseason though.
The Giants fucked up giving Jones that contract. It happens. But they need to admit that to themselves and go about upgrading the position.
If they have a conviction on a QB then draft him if you have the opportunity. The issues are way beyond just a QB.
I had concerns with the JS/BD tandem when they were hired so it is not totally surprising to me. Big year for both. A good start would be a great draft this year.
Plenty of posters all of a sudden changed their mind and said oh actually Daniel Jones sucks.
Wrong. Plenty had trepidations about throwing around big money when the results weren't there.
There's a history before 2022.
At the end of the day, this is a running QB who has now a significant injury history and very spotty play. But the latter should really be the back page story. The injuries the headline.
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Again, Jones had a bad start to the year, a lot due to the fact that he had the worst OL in football over the past 25 years and then he tore his knee.
Plenty of posters all of a sudden changed their mind and said oh actually Daniel Jones sucks.
Wrong. Plenty had trepidations about throwing around big money when the results weren't there.
There's a history before 2022.
He just makes up people’s opinions and the general consensus to fit his narrative.
At the end of the day, this is a running QB who has now a significant injury history and very spotty play. But the latter should really be the back page story. The injuries the headline.
I think so many people overcomplicate what the plan was. Schoen signed on for a 2 year window with Jones & Barkley. He structured the Jones contract in a way to try and compete in 2023. It was a disaster. Beyond the injuries, other than the 2nd half in Arizona, Jones regressed.
The plan failed. And the natural pivot now is to draft a QB. I think there are some posters here that just lean into the dramatics. Abrams is a prime example when everyone assumed he would be promoted to GM. If Schoen really loved Jones, he would have gotten a contract more in line with Hurts, Burrow, etc. There are posters then comparing the injuries Jones has to someone like Burrow who's making over $100M more money than Jones.
I think it's easy to expect a QB drafted or to put it another way, one of the top six QBs in the draft will be a Giant.
‘23 off-season - give that player four years/$160M rather than the franchise tag
‘24 off-season - use 6th overall pick to replace that player? Sign a veteran off the scrap heap to replace that player? Run it back with that player?
And none of these decisions had anything to do with prior regimes. There were multiple ways this could have been handled differently.
How does all of this sit with you, Art?
Exactly. People will try to spin this ("the contract really wasn't that bad") but they can't.
Like Brett mentioned earlier, they haven’t shown the balls to make the hard decisions yet. That would have been franchising Jones and letting Barkley walk.
The contract was the fuck up.
You can’t bring yourself to say “Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll are an upgrade over the past 2 coaches/GM regime.”
That would either be enormous waffling or enormous humility.
I think the primary difference between fans who don't want Jones and management, is they put 82M on him. I think Schoen probably feels a lot like ryanmkeane about Jones.
The contract was the fuck up.
I was. The Giants were always giving Jones 2 years under Daboll.
And if Joe views Jones like ryan…we are fucked.
That would either be enormous waffling or enormous humility.
I think the primary difference between fans who don't want Jones and management, is they put 82M on him. I think Schoen probably feels a lot like ryanmkeane about Jones.
You may be right, and if so we’re screwed. Hopefully the next 8 weeks tells us differently.
The contract was the fuck up.
This is why the DJ evaluation/contract is really on Joe Schoen and not the Maras. Nobody meddled or overruled Schoen and forced him to pick up the 5th year option on DJ.
So it is tough to get there that Schoen was later forced to give him that nonsensical deal. Schoen made a huge error in judgment and it just happened to be to the favor of what Mara wanted to happen anyway. Similar to Gettleman saying Eli could still play after he was hired which is just what John Mara wanted to hear.
We are going to learn finally how Schoen and Daboll really feel about this guy, and we are going to have an answer within the next 6 weeks.
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‘22 off-season - decline 5th-year option
‘23 off-season - give that player four years/$160M rather than the franchise tag
‘24 off-season - use 6th overall pick to replace that player? Sign a veteran off the scrap heap to replace that player? Run it back with that player?
And none of these decisions had anything to do with prior regimes. There were multiple ways this could have been handled differently.
How does all of this sit with you, Art?
Exactly. People will try to spin this ("the contract really wasn't that bad") but they can't.
The contract was not good but I don't neccessarily think it's crippling/defining for Schoen. They can cut him after year 2 and it's set up exactly that way if he didn't perform, because he would likely be due for a restructure in the 2025 offseason. He is now way in the hole performance-wise so this decision is easy.
The only thing that would make the Jones contract crippling is if Schoen does not take the modest out he negotiated for year 2 and fails to pivot now.
That would either be enormous waffling or enormous humility.
I think the primary difference between fans who don't want Jones and management, is they put 82M on him. I think Schoen probably feels a lot like ryanmkeane about Jones.
I do fear the Giants have a rose-colored glasses view on Jones, but if they are rational thinkers who understand the terms of the contract they signed him to, then 2023 is actually very important data. Jones over the course of two seasons basically has to play his way into a contract restructure, and thus more years cemented as the Giants QB. His 2023 performance and injury put him majorly in the hole, adding even more concerns of triggering the injury guarantee clause on top of that.
If Schoen was dispassionate and guided by the terms and expectaitons of the very contract he signed Jones to, the sensible thing would actually involve doing everything in his power to keep Jones off the field in 2024 and then cut him. If Jones starts 17 games and plays like the 19th best QB in the league, and the Giants get 8 or 9 wins, is that enough data to make the case for a restructure? for most of us fans, that answer is no, but that will be certainly enough for Mara, Banks, Tiki et al, and that's why Jones cannot remain QB.
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In comment 16402343 PHX Giants Fan said:
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‘22 off-season - decline 5th-year option
‘23 off-season - give that player four years/$160M rather than the franchise tag
‘24 off-season - use 6th overall pick to replace that player? Sign a veteran off the scrap heap to replace that player? Run it back with that player?
And none of these decisions had anything to do with prior regimes. There were multiple ways this could have been handled differently.
How does all of this sit with you, Art?
Exactly. People will try to spin this ("the contract really wasn't that bad") but they can't.
The contract was not good but I don't neccessarily think it's crippling/defining for Schoen. They can cut him after year 2 and it's set up exactly that way if he didn't perform, because he would likely be due for a restructure in the 2025 offseason. He is now way in the hole performance-wise so this decision is easy.
The only thing that would make the Jones contract crippling is if Schoen does not take the modest out he negotiated for year 2 and fails to pivot now.
The contract is one of the worst in NFL history and will certainly cripple the Giants in 2024, and hinder them in '25. The temptation to restructure the deal to clear cap space will be very powerful this season. There's a chance the Giants can't field a functional team in '24 without dipping into the Jones deal. That's the rub in this deal, They get nothing back for the $47M cap hold in 2024. There is no way around it, production per dollar, the Jones deal in 2024 will look like one of the worst contract seasons in history.
That is abolutely the worst case scenario and is plausible. If Jones rushes back from an ACL to start week 1, however, I don't see it happening. He has a history of rushing back from injuries (and the Giants enabling it) and looking like shit, so I foresee disaster here.
If Jones is benched this year for a rookie, and he played 6 games of terrible football total on the contract -- his deal will go down as top 10 bad all time.
One nuanced point I made repeatedly at the time, Schoen did one thing right. Other big QB deals usually practically guarantee 3 years. Often this is done by including a trigger after year one that forces the team's hand. Either cut the player before March 15 and absorb a huge year 2 cap hit, or some/all of year 3 becomes guaranteed.
Imagine if the Giants had to choose between cutting Jones and absorbing a 69M cap hit or guaranteeing 25M of his 2025 salary in the next 3 weeks.
To be clear, I'm not defending the deal. But it's a minor consolation.
Jones was 6th in QBR in 2022.
You just wait until he lights up Minnesota again. They’ll probably give him an extension on the spot