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| Art Stapleton @art_stapleton The easy thing is to just keep people on the hot seat, keep firing them when they don’t win and it’s a vicious cycle that has engulfed this entire franchise going on 13 years and counting. Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll don’t belong on the hot seat right now. Yes, there’s pressure to succeed and make smart decisions this year. They are accountable and on the clock. But barring a total disaster, this should not be a make or break season. Let it play out, see where they are and assess at the end of 2024. The perception is what it is, but I’m not falling for the banana in the tail pipe. |
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| Art Stapleton @art_stapleton Giants have poisoned their own fan base and parts of their organization with all the bad decisions and losing that they’ve done for a decade. It’s such a warped sense of reality that in two years, one year that was praised, unbelievably across the league. Two years ago, the Giants hired one of the best candidates on the market for both their GM and head coaching jobs. Sooner or later, they’re going to have to let talented people work through mistakes, shortcomings, and overall incompetence that lingers from previous failed regimes. Get off the carousel, wake up and have some patience to see if they’re going to fail because of who they are, if they’re going to succeed because who they are and not because of what came before them. |
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Art Stapleton @art_stapleton The meddling stuff is folly. Fans want Mara to meddle when he doesn't, and if he doesn't, he gets ripped for not stepping in and meddling. He's the owner. He stays out of the way, but he's involved. He's not an ivory tower guy. Fans have seen him waiting in parking garages for his car at Town Hall. He flies commercial. As with any owner, there are good decisions and bad decisions, and Mara owns all of them - he signs off on it all, either verbally or just allowing it to happen. After Jerry Reese, Mara wanted a GM to be the voice for the football ops. Reese was not that guy. Thought he had that with Gettleman, and obviously we saw how that turned out. There's a reason why Mara has stepped into the background: he wants the GM to be the face. That's Joe Schoen. Mara will talk on league matters and give an occasional State of the Giants, but those are more rare because he would rather Schoen be that representative for the organization. |
The only thing that would make the Jones contract crippling is if Schoen does not take the modest out he negotiated for year 2 and fails to pivot now.
The contract is one of the worst in NFL history and will certainly cripple the Giants in 2024, and hinder them in '25. The temptation to restructure the deal to clear cap space will be very powerful this season. There's a chance the Giants can't field a functional team in '24 without dipping into the Jones deal. That's the rub in this deal, They get nothing back for the $47M cap hold in 2024. There is no way around it, production per dollar, the Jones deal in 2024 will look like one of the worst contract seasons in history.
They aren't going to restructure him. They'll restructure Dex and Thomas, cut Glowinski, and will have enough room to field a team and even bring in some FA.
It's the 2025 offseason where it becomes crippling, because they'll be out of other restructuring moves (but also won't have to hand out any homegrown contracts because Gettleman's 2021 draft was so bad). So just cut him. It's only becomes truly awful if they don't pivot and cut him.
If the Giants a got a QB this offseason and then cut Jones, people will forget about this quickly, and I would put more money on people trashing the Hurts contract five years from now. That's a player with a contract that is completely unmovable who has only put up one great season in his career.
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One is Jones having a mediocre season like 2022 and the Giants getting 7-8 wins and them deciding to stick with Jones and restructure his deal. That would destroy the Giants for probably 4 more years.
Jones was 6th in QBR in 2022.
lol
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One is Jones having a mediocre season like 2022 and the Giants getting 7-8 wins and them deciding to stick with Jones and restructure his deal. That would destroy the Giants for probably 4 more years.
Jones was 6th in QBR in 2022.
He was 13th in passing QBR, 28th in TD %, 15th in yards and 16th in success rate.
Care to address your prior lies on this thread though?
6. Daniel Jones
7. Geno Smith
8. Jacoby Brissett
nu·ance
noun
plural noun: nuances
a subtle difference in or shade of meaning, expression, or sound.
Let’s see how this season goes.
He had a good season, but the contract was structured so that he had to continue playing well. This is not a rookie contract where he gets a mulligan year. A restructure is looming, and 2023 put him severly in the hole.
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In comment 16402425 ajr2456 said:
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One is Jones having a mediocre season like 2022 and the Giants getting 7-8 wins and them deciding to stick with Jones and restructure his deal. That would destroy the Giants for probably 4 more years.
Jones was 6th in QBR in 2022.
lol
BBS, I can’t tell if it’s trolling at this point. I kinda hope it is. The alternative is…wow.
This gets old real fast. Make your own genetic lottery!
I hear you loud and clear. Letting this continue with Jones is just plain nonsense, no matter how much money was laid out in error.
Schoen/Daboll need to do some soul-searching.
The fans didn't fire the last 3 coaches after two years each.
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In comment 16402430 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 16402425 ajr2456 said:
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One is Jones having a mediocre season like 2022 and the Giants getting 7-8 wins and them deciding to stick with Jones and restructure his deal. That would destroy the Giants for probably 4 more years.
Jones was 6th in QBR in 2022.
lol
BBS, I can’t tell if it’s trolling at this point. I kinda hope it is. The alternative is…wow.
It’s like freakin Groundhog Day. Every single time Ryan brings up QBR posters present to him a litany of reasons QBR is a flawed stat and remind him that there are many, many, many other stats that show Jones was mediocre at best in ‘22. You’d think at some point he’d pay attention. But inevitably we will see the ole “he was 6th in QBR” post as if he hadn’t read a damn thing or let anything sink in. It’s comical
It’s like freakin Groundhog Day. Every single time Ryan brings up QBR posters present to him a litany of reasons QBR is a flawed stat and remind him that there are many, many, many other stats that show Jones was mediocre at best in ‘22. You’d think at some point he’d pay attention. But inevitably we will see the ole “he was 6th in QBR” post as if he hadn’t read a damn thing or let anything sink in. It’s comical
Did you know he won a wild card game?
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It’s like freakin Groundhog Day. Every single time Ryan brings up QBR posters present to him a litany of reasons QBR is a flawed stat and remind him that there are many, many, many other stats that show Jones was mediocre at best in ‘22. You’d think at some point he’d pay attention. But inevitably we will see the ole “he was 6th in QBR” post as if he hadn’t read a damn thing or let anything sink in. It’s comical
Did you know he won a wild card game?
So ironic that one of the very few positive football days in the past decade for this broken Franchise has literally become it's latest and greatest crutch.
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It’s like freakin Groundhog Day. Every single time Ryan brings up QBR posters present to him a litany of reasons QBR is a flawed stat and remind him that there are many, many, many other stats that show Jones was mediocre at best in ‘22. You’d think at some point he’d pay attention. But inevitably we will see the ole “he was 6th in QBR” post as if he hadn’t read a damn thing or let anything sink in. It’s comical
Did you know he won a wild card game?
Of course I know this. They put Jones’ Jersey and cleats in the Hall of Fame from this game. It’s a spectacular display. It’s all they talk about in the restaurants around Canton
Case Keenum also had one very good season in the NFL. It's the body of work that matters, and 2023 and the years prior to 2022 count just as much, with 2023 being the most important because it's the first year of a contract that is backloaded and practically demands a restructure after year 2.
The ironic thing is that his vaunted QBR was propped up by his rushing stats, which were largely a product of him being petrified to throw the ball downfield
Schoen will take his medicine this year and I'd expect Jones to be competing with a rookie and vet to start in 2024. And if this year goes bad, Jones gets cut and there is a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 and everyone moves on.
Schoen will take his medicine this year and I'd expect Jones to be competing with a rookie and vet to start in 2024. And if this year goes bad, Jones gets cut and there is a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 and everyone moves on.
The hope is that we draft a rookie quarterback
And Jones is holding a clipboard this year as not to risk the injury guarantee for 2025
If what the Giants get from the deal is one half of good football against the Cardinals for 82M, I'll make it my life's mission for that mistake never to be forgotten.
- sign for $20M+/yr
- after playing 15+ games
- and throwing less than 20 TDs
there hasn't been another QB to sign for even $10M+/yr after playing 12+ games & throwing only 15 TDs (as Jones did)
Daniel Jones is the *only QB in the modern passing era* to play 10+ games for 3 consecutive years and throw fewer TDs than games played every year:
2020: 14 games played… 11 pass TDs
2021: 11 games played… 10 pass TDs
2022: 16 games played… 15 pass TDs
If Schoen doubles-down on Jones this off-season, the Jones contract should be viewed as the worst in Giants history.
A few other posters have expressed this and I agree. If Schoen made this error by re-upping with Jones, it's very hard to trust him picking a QB in the draft.
His seat isn't hot. It's an inferno.
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as one of the worst in league history.
If Schoen doubles-down on Jones this off-season, the Jones contract should be viewed as the worst in Giants history.
A few other posters have expressed this and I agree. If Schoen made this error by re-upping with Jones, it's very hard to trust him picking a QB in the draft.
His seat isn't hot. It's an inferno.
Well find out. I'm more worried about Daboll's evaluation than Schoen's. The Giants are a committee so there will be multiple voices on the decision just like it was with Jones. And to be fair, just like it was with Gettleman too.
Where we disagree, I fully expect the Giants to draft a QB high or come away with one of the top six QB prospects.
Barring a complete disaster, Schoen/Daboll will get this offseason and next to be competing at the top end of the NFC by 2025.
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as one of the worst in league history.
If what the Giants get from the deal is one half of good football against the Cardinals for 82M, I'll make it my life's mission for that mistake never to be forgotten.
You're right. But, I just don't think anyone will care if Bo Nix is leading an offense which is throwing for 30 TD's per year.
They have to nail the draft and free agency. Winning 5 games next season will get them both fired. That's just how it is these days.
What I want to see from Schoen is 1) the ability to move off of mistakes as quickly as possible 2) a pattern of successful moves.
He's made some mistakes. Jones, Glowinksi, Waller, potentially Neal.
I think too many managers in all walks of life conflate impatience with reluctance.
You can move off a decision quickly if you have the evidence to believe you were wrong. You can't always wait for proof.
What I want to see from Schoen is 1) the ability to move off of mistakes as quickly as possible 2) a pattern of successful moves.
He's made some mistakes. Jones, Glowinksi, Waller, potentially Neal.
I think too many managers in all walks of life conflate impatience with reluctance.
You can move off a decision quickly if you have the evidence to believe you were wrong. You can't always wait for proof.
This is an extremely pivotal offseason. I think the actions between March 13th and April 27th will determine whether this regime is successful.
Where I disagree with some is the downplaying of injuries. The fact Jones only played in 4 full games due to another neck injury and ACL for a running QB is significant. When you look at someone like Penix who is reported to possibly fall due to his medicals, I'm not sure why it wouldn't impact the decision around drafting a QB and Jones. And then add in the escape hatch after *THIS* season.
They have to nail the draft and free agency. Winning 5 games next season will get them both fired. That's just how it is these days.
If the Giants pivot away from Jones in 2024 by going with a rookie, I think the base is smart enough to be more measured with expectations.
Look at Murray, he was back running the ball with the same effectiveness the next season after his ACL.
Look at Murray, he was back running the ball with the same effectiveness the next season after his ACL.
I agree with that. And I assume they are on the fence because the contract Jones got was more like than love. We'll see though. As bw has said, we'll find out in the month and a half window outlined above. Maybe sooner, if NYG trades up in early March.
Look at Murray, he was back running the ball with the same effectiveness the next season after his ACL.
Murray had missed two games his entire career before that injury. Jones’ injury history is much more than just the ACL. I don’t think anyone would be holding one injury against him.
the idea that gm/hc need to be tied to the hip is silly. the gm in a lot of ways runs the organization to carry out the vision of the head coach and his staff based on the schemes they are running. daboll may end up succeeding for all the reasons that attracted schoen in the first place, or he may fail because he had a few flaws that ended up holding him back, but either way joe schoen has the experience of what worked and what didnt over what will then be 3 years. starting from scratch again purges all that.
so unless schoen does something catastrophic i dont think you want to have to start over again with another total franchise overhaul at all levels. whatever happens with daboll in year 3, he's still been the best hire the nyg made this decade. if he ends up not being the guy so be it, hopefully schoen is smart enough to see wherever daboll has failed and bring in someone better.
the idea that gm/hc need to be tied to the hip is silly. the gm in a lot of ways runs the organization to carry out the vision of the head coach and his staff based on the schemes they are running. daboll may end up succeeding for all the reasons that attracted schoen in the first place, or he may fail because he had a few flaws that ended up holding him back, but either way joe schoen has the experience of what worked and what didnt over what will then be 3 years. starting from scratch again purges all that.
so unless schoen does something catastrophic i dont think you want to have to start over again with another total franchise overhaul at all levels. whatever happens with daboll in year 3, he's still been the best hire the nyg made this decade. if he ends up not being the guy so be it, hopefully schoen is smart enough to see wherever daboll has failed and bring in someone better.
I see no world where Schoen gets less time than Gettleman. Schoen will most certainly get another swing at HC if Daboll bombs.
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Sean, I think if management is on the fence with Jones, the injuries might be the straw. But if they aren't on the fence, and simply just like and believe in him, I don't think they are opinion changing injuries.
Look at Murray, he was back running the ball with the same effectiveness the next season after his ACL.
Murray had missed two games his entire career before that injury. Jones’ injury history is much more than just the ACL. I don’t think anyone would be holding one injury against him.
Let's set his ACL aside, given it's not of the hold against variety.
Is there any evidence his neck injury is of the hold against variety?
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and rightfully so depending on how the team does. in year 3 he owns the record.
the idea that gm/hc need to be tied to the hip is silly. the gm in a lot of ways runs the organization to carry out the vision of the head coach and his staff based on the schemes they are running. daboll may end up succeeding for all the reasons that attracted schoen in the first place, or he may fail because he had a few flaws that ended up holding him back, but either way joe schoen has the experience of what worked and what didnt over what will then be 3 years. starting from scratch again purges all that.
so unless schoen does something catastrophic i dont think you want to have to start over again with another total franchise overhaul at all levels. whatever happens with daboll in year 3, he's still been the best hire the nyg made this decade. if he ends up not being the guy so be it, hopefully schoen is smart enough to see wherever daboll has failed and bring in someone better.
I see no world where Schoen gets less time than Gettleman. Schoen will most certainly get another swing at HC if Daboll bombs.
"how long did we give the previous failure" is not how anyone actually makes decisions.
in my view schoen done a pretty good job. he has attracted seemingly in demand people to work under him (brown, cowden) and i would already call the daboll hire a success even if he goes down in flames in year 3. at minimum the fact that he earned a year 3 was a major improvement over the prior 3 hires. so the only way schoen gets fired is if there's something behind the scenes that's broken in how the organization is running but i dont really see anything that would indicate that to be the case.
I hate the idea that Daboll's job security depends on 2024. My preference would be that they give him a contract extension now. If firing Daboll after a 6-11 2024 is a possibility they should have fired him this offseason. Either you believe in the guy or you don't.
the idea that gm/hc need to be tied to the hip is silly. the gm in a lot of ways runs the organization to carry out the vision of the head coach and his staff based on the schemes they are running. daboll may end up succeeding for all the reasons that attracted schoen in the first place, or he may fail because he had a few flaws that ended up holding him back, but either way joe schoen has the experience of what worked and what didnt over what will then be 3 years. starting from scratch again purges all that.
so unless schoen does something catastrophic i dont think you want to have to start over again with another total franchise overhaul at all levels. whatever happens with daboll in year 3, he's still been the best hire the nyg made this decade. if he ends up not being the guy so be it, hopefully schoen is smart enough to see wherever daboll has failed and bring in someone better.
Anybody with half a brain knows that Daboll has a depleted squad. It is Schoen's job (and the personnel department) job to put players on the field for Daboll.
He won year one with a worse squad than year two, and year two went south because of massive injuries and a much tougher schedule. But the fact the players continued to show up on Sundays is a feather in his cap.
The biggest ding in Daboll's defense is the full support he gave Jones after 2022. But that is a shared eff up with Schoen. You could argue carrying Johnson as OL coach was almost as bad.
I am pretty certain that unless the team revolts or he is found to be a serial killer this is not a make or break year for Daboll.
That's bizarre to me. It suggests Schoen is doing his job better than Daboll. Okay, but based on what?
Aside from being better looking, more articulate, and younger than Gettleman, I fail to see much of a difference in their performances building a team.
Daboll coached the team to the playoffs in 2022 with largely Gettleman's players.
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which of course sets up a scenario where Schoen and the next head coach aren't necessarily aligned.
That's bizarre to me. It suggests Schoen is doing his job better than Daboll. Okay, but based on what?
Aside from being better looking, more articulate, and younger than Gettleman, I fail to see much of a difference in their performances building a team.
Daboll coached the team to the playoffs in 2022 with largely Gettleman's players.
It's not what I think should be the case, it's just based on how I think we all think the Giants view the GM position vs. head coach.
My preference would be for GM/head coach to sink or swim together, and to be given a little bit longer timeframe (5-6 years) to build and install their program.
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In comment 16402577 christian said:
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Sean, I think if management is on the fence with Jones, the injuries might be the straw. But if they aren't on the fence, and simply just like and believe in him, I don't think they are opinion changing injuries.
Look at Murray, he was back running the ball with the same effectiveness the next season after his ACL.
Murray had missed two games his entire career before that injury. Jones’ injury history is much more than just the ACL. I don’t think anyone would be holding one injury against him.
Let's set his ACL aside, given it's not of the hold against variety.
Is there any evidence his neck injury is of the hold against variety?
I have no idea whether the neck injury is long term. That’s not the point. The point is he is often unavailable because of numerous injuries throughout his career. Does this look like a guy you can trust to stay healthy. This list doesn’t even cover the neck and ACL injuries from ‘23:
Dec 1, 2019 Pedal Ankle (high) Sprain Grade 3 Jones suffered a high ankle sprain in a Week 13 loss to the Green Bay Packers.
Nov 29, 2020 Thigh Hamstring Strain Grade 2 In the third quarter of Cincinnati's game during Week 12's season, Jones suffered a right hamstring injury.
Dec 13, 2020 Pedal Ankle Sprain Grade 2 During the Giants' defeat to the Arizona Cardinals, Jones had an ankle injury. He didn't attend a game.
Dec 16, 2020 Thigh Hamstring Strain Grade 2 Jones had a recurrence of the right hamstring issue that had prevented him from running effectively against the Arizona Cardinalss
Oct 10, 2021 Head Cranial Concussion Grade 1 In the game against Dallas in Week 5, Jones sustained a concussion. For the following game, he received clearance.
Nov 28, 2021 Cervical Neck Strain Jones sustained a neck injury that would terminate his season during the Giants' victory against the Eagles in Week 12. He missed six games after being placed on IR.
Oct 2, 2022 Pedal Ankle Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1
When someone tries to tell you who they are, believe them.
I hate the idea that Daboll's job security depends on 2024. My preference would be that they give him a contract extension now. If firing Daboll after a 6-11 2024 is a possibility they should have fired him this offseason. Either you believe in the guy or you don't.
I agree with this completely. Especially since he'll be involved in the QB evaluation in the draft.
You can't draft a QB at 6 and then fire Daboll after 2024. Now it's a forced marriage with the next HC and the drafted QB. We've all seen that movie.
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which of course sets up a scenario where Schoen and the next head coach aren't necessarily aligned.
That's bizarre to me. It suggests Schoen is doing his job better than Daboll. Okay, but based on what?
Aside from being better looking, more articulate, and younger than Gettleman, I fail to see much of a difference in their performances building a team.
Daboll coached the team to the playoffs in 2022 with largely Gettleman's players.
All Schoen has done thus far is maintain Gettleman's direction. He's yet to create his own direction. He's largely an incomplete right now. This offseason will be the tell.
Anybody with half a brain knows that Daboll has a depleted squad. It is Schoen's job (and the personnel department) job to put players on the field for Daboll.
He won year one with a worse squad than year two, and year two went south because of massive injuries and a much tougher schedule. But the fact the players continued to show up on Sundays is a feather in his cap.
The biggest ding in Daboll's defense is the full support he gave Jones after 2022. But that is a shared eff up with Schoen. You could argue carrying Johnson as OL coach was almost as bad.
I am pretty certain that unless the team revolts or he is found to be a serial killer this is not a make or break year for Daboll.
they work for the same team with the same w/l record so everything is a "shared eff up".
head coaches jobs are to win on sundays and 'depleted squad' isnt an excuse. look at the job sean mcvay did this year with a team full of non-first round rookies and injuries to all his star players. any year can be make or break for any head coach. playing above the talent level makes coaches, playing at or below talent level breaks them. daboll has done more of the former than the latter which is a credit to both him and schoen, but certainly not enough that his year 4 is guaranteed.
You think the Giants believe his prior, healed injuries foretell his future availibilty?
Some good so far, but that eval/contract decision was to way too off and left a mark on both.
They need to wake up and get this team moving with a new QB.