Was having a conversation with a source u have within the league who was part of a couple player personnel groups. When I asked about what the Giants need to do in his view this offseason it was immediately “The Giants need to trade up for a QB and they need to do it fast. Like, at the combine fast.”
I was a bit taken aback by why he said “fast”. When asked, he put it this way. Schoen and Daboll ARE on the hot seat. Regardless of what anyone wants to say, the fans dictate the heat of the seat, and they cannot go into next season and have something similar to 2023 happen. Wins are the ultimate healer. They need to have something to show ownership and the fans that they need to be around for longer and, while there are those in the organization that believe in Daniel Jones, that’s where the belief ends. Getting serious free agents that could truly help this team will be hard if Daniel Jones is being sold as the QB of the team. Daniel Jones’s cache in the league doesn’t extend much past the Meadowlands, if that much.
If the Giants can come away with a Caleb Williams or a Jayden Daniels, it would go a large way in changing the perception the team has among free agent players, and can help get some younger guys in the locker room that aren’t big Daniel Jones supporters more behind the team.
Essentially, any message the Giants push is gonna fall on deaf ears and they are gonna have a hard time garnering talent in FA if they keep trying to prop up DJ.
but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend.
"if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl." - gonna have to disagree rather vehemently there.
Also, you talk about getting Jones behind a decent line and weapons. What kind of timeline are we talking about here? The contract is not "wait and see what we have." He is due a $40.1 million cap hit or a restructure next offseason (guaranteeing more years), versus a simple $22 mil dead cap hit. The time for him to perform to earn that contract was yesterday. The time for the Giants to build a team around him was yesterday. They brought in Campbell, Waller, and Hyatt, plus several OL in the 2022 and 23 draft and FA. It sucks that many of them didn't work out, but that doesn't change the reality that the bill is coming due and the Giants don't really have time to do a team-building exercise to evaluate Jones.
44% of NFL teams make the playoffs every year.
Do you believe that 44% of the league is good enough to win the Super Bowl every year? Would you say that each of the 14 playoff teams have the same probability?
Do they teach math up there?
The Giants have a get out opportunity after 2024 and they should use it.
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Continuing to get talked about like it was an MVP season is embarrassing.
If Sam Howell had that season last year and Washington paid him $160 million we’d all be laughing
You are full of shit. Who is saying it was a MVP season? I never said that. Nobody has ever said that.
I said it was a good season. Which it fucking was, you maniac.
2022 has as much weight predicting the Giants future success as Mac McClung winning back to back Slam Dunk contests has in predicting him as a NBA superstar
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Desperation is what leads to gross overpay or reach. NYG are not in a good spot at QB. But you don't fix one thing by stacking further poor decisions on top. If NYG does something for the reasons provided in the OP, odds are it will look back at it as a regrettable decision and will be pointing back as an excuse why poor choices were made.
This team is not one year or one player away. We need to make smart unemotional decisions. The frenzied fan base won't understand. But for me personally, I want out of this mess not appeasement.
All due respect but what's your point? Go QB or BPA?
Lol. Sure he is. Damn the DJFC is a delusional bunch.
You can't keep flipping coaches. It does no good for the team. And you don't build from the QB up. Draft a QB without getting the rest of the offense in order and you are drafting another failure.
Trey Lance, Trevor Lawrence, Justin Fields, David Carr, Baker Mayfield, etc... You see it all the time. These kids don't come into the league and just stink. They have no protection. They have a revolving door in the WR room, multiple coaches and systems. Get a solid line and cement your weapons and then go get he QB of your dreams so they can come in and be successful.
Or, you know, let's just repeat the same cycle over and over!
You can't keep flipping coaches. It does no good for the team. And you don't build from the QB up. Draft a QB without getting the rest of the offense in order and you are drafting another failure.
Trey Lance, Trevor Lawrence, Justin Fields, David Carr, Baker Mayfield, etc... You see it all the time. These kids don't come into the league and just stink. They have no protection. They have a revolving door in the WR room, multiple coaches and systems. Get a solid line and cement your weapons and then go get he QB of your dreams so they can come in and be successful.
Or, you know, let's just repeat the same cycle over and over!
Yes, Trey Lance failed because of the awful surrounding cast in San Francisco.
Also, how did CJ Stroud do the Texans this year?
Trey Lance had a revolving door of WRs and no protection?
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DJ is the answer. Fix the rest of the team.
Lol. Sure he is. Damn the DJFC is a delusional bunch.
Their collective IQ barely reaches room temperature.
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In comment 16403240 The_Boss said:
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And take themselves out of Williams/Maye/Daniels? Someone has to be the team left standing out in the cold, and unfortunately that’s the NYG.
Assume CHI and WAS draft Williams and Maye. There is a chance New England doesn't want Daniels and they either draft MHJ or trade back. That leaves an opening for the Giants to get Daniels or QB4.
Why should anyone assume that?
I know you think mock drafts are actual data, but they're not.
Not mock drafts. Draft prospect analysis. Williams is going #1. Daniels has a shot to go #2. But I think he has a reasonable shot to go #6.
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In comment 16403298 Carl in CT said:
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DJ is the answer. Fix the rest of the team.
Lol. Sure he is. Damn the DJFC is a delusional bunch.
Their collective IQ barely reaches room temperature.
You almost can’t make this stuff up. The dude was putting up backup level numbers and a winning percentage that rivals the worst in the NFL, and that is BEFORE you factor in injury history.
Here’s a quick check if you believe Jones is any type of answer, look up Sam Darnolds overall numbers and winning percentage, compare it to Jones. If your answer is still that Jones is the answer, you are either disingenuous or delusional.
“If you listen to the fans, you'll be sitting up there with them”
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In comment 16403258 Manhattan said:
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In comment 16403240 The_Boss said:
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And take themselves out of Williams/Maye/Daniels? Someone has to be the team left standing out in the cold, and unfortunately that’s the NYG.
Assume CHI and WAS draft Williams and Maye. There is a chance New England doesn't want Daniels and they either draft MHJ or trade back. That leaves an opening for the Giants to get Daniels or QB4.
Why should anyone assume that?
I know you think mock drafts are actual data, but they're not.
Not mock drafts. Draft prospect analysis. Williams is going #1. Daniels has a shot to go #2. But I think he has a reasonable shot to go #6.
And #1 picks have busted. Each of the Top 5 QB's (everyone besides Pennix) represents a different flavor of QB and I would not be surprised to see widely different rankings from teams (some team's QB1 could be another's QB4 or vice versa).
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In comment 16403756 bwitz said:
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In comment 16403298 Carl in CT said:
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DJ is the answer. Fix the rest of the team.
Lol. Sure he is. Damn the DJFC is a delusional bunch.
Their collective IQ barely reaches room temperature.
You almost can’t make this stuff up. The dude was putting up backup level numbers and a winning percentage that rivals the worst in the NFL, and that is BEFORE you factor in injury history.
Here’s a quick check if you believe Jones is any type of answer, look up Sam Darnolds overall numbers and winning percentage, compare it to Jones. If your answer is still that Jones is the answer, you are either disingenuous or delusional.
The fact that they hold on to 2022 as some kind of awaking for Jones and mention it every time they can is such a pathetically weak argument it’s sad at this point. Jones’ 2022 was pedestrian, at best. Yet, they pull it out every time like he had a season that could compare to some of Mahomes, Rodgers or Allen’s best.
Fucking delusional.
Drake Maye has all of the measurables, something I can’t say about any of the other QB’s in this group, but the production wasn’t always there. Is this a situation where he just needs better coaching (Mack Brown doesn’t have a history of developing NFL QB’s) or have people found flaws they can exploit.
Jayden Daniels posted insane numbers against high quality defenses and showed he can really operate at all levels of the field. Off script ability probably second to Williams IMHO. The size is an issue along with having 2 1st round caliber WR’s.
JJ McCarthy has the most untapped potential and you see games like Alabama where he put team on his shoulders and won against elite competition. Ran as close to a pro style scheme as you will see among this crop. Definitely can question whether the scheme was by design or was Harbaugh working within limitations of McCarthy.
Bo Nix had insane production at Oregon and is the most pro ready, but questionable scheme diversity. Is he limited to a scheme centered around quick passing game to guys in space versus being able to attack vertical? If the Safeties can cheat down that also limits what you can do offensively.
As I said, there are reasons why a team may love or hate a particular QB option.
I don’t see a Josh Rosen level bust in this crop barring injury. That being said, there are also no QB’s that make me feel like even if they don’t reach their potential you will say at least they were solid for where they were picked (based on current mock drafts - if one does a Will Levis that is different).
Bo Nix had insane production at Oregon and is the most pro ready, but questionable scheme diversity.
How do you know Nix is the most pro ready? Based on what?
Drake Maye has all of the measurables, something I can’t say about any of the other QB’s in this group, but the production wasn’t always there. Is this a situation where he just needs better coaching (Mack Brown doesn’t have a history of developing NFL QB’s) or have people found flaws they can exploit.
Jayden Daniels posted insane numbers against high quality defenses and showed he can really operate at all levels of the field. Off script ability probably second to Williams IMHO. The size is an issue along with having 2 1st round caliber WR’s.
JJ McCarthy has the most untapped potential and you see games like Alabama where he put team on his shoulders and won against elite competition. Ran as close to a pro style scheme as you will see among this crop. Definitely can question whether the scheme was by design or was Harbaugh working within limitations of McCarthy.
Bo Nix had insane production at Oregon and is the most pro ready, but questionable scheme diversity. Is he limited to a scheme centered around quick passing game to guys in space versus being able to attack vertical? If the Safeties can cheat down that also limits what you can do offensively.
As I said, there are reasons why a team may love or hate a particular QB option.
Nice job with this post. So, so, so many things to think about when evaluating and ranking these guys.
Quite frankly, the only comforting thing is that we could go wrong with any one of these prospected and STILL BE BETTER OFF than we are now.
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Bo Nix had insane production at Oregon and is the most pro ready, but questionable scheme diversity.
How do you know Nix is the most pro ready? Based on what?
Watching Oregon play, in the right scheme involving short, quick passing game to guys in space I think Nix can play from Day 1 and not lose games he should win. Having watched the others play I think most will be asked to play Week 1, but it is not ideal. As far as pro ready I think Daniels is a close #2, but the size is concerning. McCarthy is the same height, but it looks like he has the frame to be larger. Daniels is more maxed out in that regard. Williams, for all of the hype, I have questions about the football IQ and the repeated errors. In an ideal world you have a vet working with him all offseason and maybe early in regular season about what it takes to be an NFL QB.
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Caleb Williams makes throws that no QB should be able to make, has the strongest arm in the class, and can make plays off structure with his athleticism. However, it is concerning that he was not putting away teams, had his worst games against higher level opponents, and was making many of the same errors at the end of the year as he was at the beginning.
Drake Maye has all of the measurables, something I can’t say about any of the other QB’s in this group, but the production wasn’t always there. Is this a situation where he just needs better coaching (Mack Brown doesn’t have a history of developing NFL QB’s) or have people found flaws they can exploit.
Jayden Daniels posted insane numbers against high quality defenses and showed he can really operate at all levels of the field. Off script ability probably second to Williams IMHO. The size is an issue along with having 2 1st round caliber WR’s.
JJ McCarthy has the most untapped potential and you see games like Alabama where he put team on his shoulders and won against elite competition. Ran as close to a pro style scheme as you will see among this crop. Definitely can question whether the scheme was by design or was Harbaugh working within limitations of McCarthy.
Bo Nix had insane production at Oregon and is the most pro ready, but questionable scheme diversity. Is he limited to a scheme centered around quick passing game to guys in space versus being able to attack vertical? If the Safeties can cheat down that also limits what you can do offensively.
As I said, there are reasons why a team may love or hate a particular QB option.
Nice job with this post. So, so, so many things to think about when evaluating and ranking these guys.
Quite frankly, the only comforting thing is that we could go wrong with any one of these prospected and STILL BE BETTER OFF than we are now.
I will say the Top 4 long term yes we would still be better off than Daniel Jones. That being said, I think McCarthy will need to sit a year behind a vet if you want to maximize his potential.
I just listened to Tiki go through how the career stats prove Jones is much better with Saquon
Sooooo
How much can be “built “ around a guy who has a top LT and top RB in football and has gotten at its absolute best just 9 wins out of this?
Money is a factor. Jones 40+, Thomas 20+, Barkley 10+
And without them we went 1-5 and he had 2 TDs?
There are so many draft picks you can hit on, only so many FAs you can afford with a cap
Which brings me to something I have been wondering about. What the heck is the goal of all the folks screaming that Jones has to go and anyone who disagrees is delusional. Jones isn't going anywhere; the professional football people in the Giants organization have decided he is their best option at least in the short term. The choice has for all intents and purposes already been made. Do think that if they yell it loud enough and often enough that Mara or schoen will hear them and have a change of heart. Don't think so! So what's the point other than to hear themselves howl at the moon.
Talk about who's delusional!
Bo Nix had insane production at Oregon and is the most pro ready, but questionable
Watching Oregon play, in the right scheme involving short, quick passing game to guys in space I think Nix can play from Day 1 and not lose games he should win. Having watched the others play I think most will be asked to play Week 1, but it is not ideal. As far as pro ready I think Daniels is a close #2, but the size is concerning. McCarthy is the same height, but it looks like he has the frame to be larger. Daniels is more maxed out in that regard. Williams, for all of the hype, I have questions about the football IQ and the repeated errors. In an ideal world you have a vet working with him all offseason and maybe early in regular season about what it takes to be an NFL QB.
I still don't know how you know that. I think something like being "pro ready" is impossible to project. The NFL is so much more advanced than the college game on the defensive side of the ball, both in talent and scheme/strategy. As far as I'm concerned, until a new QB is in a real game, we're simply guessing.
You can bring up Malik Willis until the cows come home, but the worst case scenario after picking him is still better than where we are right now.
Keep beating that dead horse. He was overdrafted the following draft or did you miss that?
Willis was and is fools gold that some of you jumped after.
Trade back add depth see what Neal/DJ have.
If they stink again move on.
Meanwhile patch gaping holes elsewhere
Or the next 14 months...
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Free agents don't want to come to the Giants is an idiot. Free agents go where the money and playing time is. Just look at the sorry Washington franchise. They continually signed bi name free agents under Snyder.
If the money is similar, they will go elsewhere unless they think there is some stability.
So I must be an idiot.
+1 that's how we get Nate Solder, Gollayay, etc.
Coach maybe?
Which brings me to something I have been wondering about. What the heck is the goal of all the folks screaming that Jones has to go and anyone who disagrees is delusional. Jones isn't going anywhere; the professional football people in the Giants organization have decided he is their best option at least in the short term. The choice has for all intents and purposes already been made. Do think that if they yell it loud enough and often enough that Mara or schoen will hear them and have a change of heart. Don't think so! So what's the point other than to hear themselves howl at the moon.
Talk about who's delusional!
Have you run the side by side with Sam Darnold yet? Do you believe Sam Darnold is an NFL starting caliber qb? Do you believe the Giants organization, posting one of the worst records in the NFL over the last decade, deserves the benefit of the doubt on any decision?
I’ll await your answers.
I’ll await your answers.
What has Sam Darnold got to with anything? Doesn't matter whether I trust the organization or you don't. There the only organization we have right now and I trust guys like Schoen and Daboll who appear to be smart, yung football guys who seem to have a plan one whoel hell of a lot more than a howling mob whose collective football expertise and experience one could fit on the head of a pin.
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Have you run the side by side with Sam Darnold yet? Do you believe Sam Darnold is an NFL starting caliber qb? Do you believe the Giants organization, posting one of the worst records in the NFL over the last decade, deserves the benefit of the doubt on any decision?
I’ll await your answers.
What has Sam Darnold got to with anything? Doesn't matter whether I trust the organization or you don't. There the only organization we have right now and I trust guys like Schoen and Daboll who appear to be smart, yung football guys who seem to have a plan one whoel hell of a lot more than a howling mob whose collective football expertise and experience one could fit on the head of a pin.
Cool, do you think Sam Darnold is an NFL starting qb?
But I also understand its a process. No question the Giants really did bottom out between 2017 and 2021 when they posted a really dismal 22-59 W-L record over those 5 campaigns. And given that record as a starting point, its more than a tad unreasonable to expect the Giants to be competing for a title barely two years into the actual rebuild. We also remind people that it took the Giants a full 8 seasons to win their first Super Bowl after George Young took over the team at the end of the 1978 season as the team emerged from the dreaded '70s. Indeed, in Young's first 5 seasons, the Giants record was an almost equally dismal 26-46-1, including a 3-12-1 catastrophe in 1983 the year before they finally got truly competitive.
And I don't believe for a moment the Giants are a 6-win team going forward. Three of their losses this year came in games decided on the last play of the contest and in all three the odds heavily favored the Giants making the play. Bottom line is that the Giants right now are pretty much a .500 football that won some close ones in 2022 and lost them this past fall. We also fully expect the Giants to come into training camp next fall with a burr under their collective saddle and bounce back to at least the 9-10 win range and compete for a playoff spot in the somewhat diluted NFC next fall.
We suggest all that, not because we tend to be eternal optimists when it comes to sports - which we confess we are - but because we see the Giants ever so steadily building up a solid core of good young players. Needless to say, of course, they still need more.
Re the QB situation: I'm going to be real honest here. Fact is I just don't understand where the tidal wave of 'Daniel Jones must go' has come from. And a little context here. I spent the better part of the past decade trying to refute all the people literally screaming at me from literally every angle that the Giants just had to fix the offensive line: that the lack of a decent OL ruined the back half of Eli's career; and that no QB could possibly prosper with the Giants' OL. I don't want to rehash all the data (such as the fact that Eli actually had the best 3-year run of his career between 2014-2016) that showed until recently that just wasn't the case. So imagine my incredulity when in a season in which the OL was truly historically bad, all those same people all of a sudden started screaming 'we need a new QB!' with barely a peep about the OL which for a long time this fall was on pace to give up over 100 sacks.
Can the Giants do better at QB? Of course, but so can probably more than half the teams in the league. Can they make the playoffs with Jones? What, was no one paying attention in 2022 when Jones led a team that really didn't have much star power to ten wins including a road-win over the #2 seed. Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend.
In fact, the Giants have told us that Jones will be the starter in 2024 once he's healthy and if they have any concerns at the position its having some insurance if Jones is limited at any time this fall. And re-listening to GM Joe Schoen's season-ending presser it seemed pretty clear that their main goal at QB this off-season will be to find someone - most likely a veteran free agent - capable of stepping in and winning games if Jones can't play.
Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility of also addressing the position at the 2024 draft, especially given they have the 6th pick overall this coming April, especially because I suspect it may be the last time the Giants pick this early in a while. Ultimately what it comes down to for Schoen and company (who are not drafting to save their jobs) but to try and win a championship, are your odds better by trying a new QB (who lets be honest here will have a pretty small chance of being an elite franchise guy) or do you build up the rest of the team around Jones which lets be honest has never ever been very good.
Time will tell!
Thank you for sanity and for expressing your point in a way that feels fair rather than derogatory
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Eric, my friend, I am sorry you feel that way. I've been at this going on 70 years and I am more than just a little excited about the direction the Giants are headed in. At the same time, I can understand people's frustration (as I have said jokingly to others privately its been what 18 games since the Giants won a playoff game!)
But I also understand its a process. No question the Giants really did bottom out between 2017 and 2021 when they posted a really dismal 22-59 W-L record over those 5 campaigns. And given that record as a starting point, its more than a tad unreasonable to expect the Giants to be competing for a title barely two years into the actual rebuild. We also remind people that it took the Giants a full 8 seasons to win their first Super Bowl after George Young took over the team at the end of the 1978 season as the team emerged from the dreaded '70s. Indeed, in Young's first 5 seasons, the Giants record was an almost equally dismal 26-46-1, including a 3-12-1 catastrophe in 1983 the year before they finally got truly competitive.
And I don't believe for a moment the Giants are a 6-win team going forward. Three of their losses this year came in games decided on the last play of the contest and in all three the odds heavily favored the Giants making the play. Bottom line is that the Giants right now are pretty much a .500 football that won some close ones in 2022 and lost them this past fall. We also fully expect the Giants to come into training camp next fall with a burr under their collective saddle and bounce back to at least the 9-10 win range and compete for a playoff spot in the somewhat diluted NFC next fall.
We suggest all that, not because we tend to be eternal optimists when it comes to sports - which we confess we are - but because we see the Giants ever so steadily building up a solid core of good young players. Needless to say, of course, they still need more.
Re the QB situation: I'm going to be real honest here. Fact is I just don't understand where the tidal wave of 'Daniel Jones must go' has come from. And a little context here. I spent the better part of the past decade trying to refute all the people literally screaming at me from literally every angle that the Giants just had to fix the offensive line: that the lack of a decent OL ruined the back half of Eli's career; and that no QB could possibly prosper with the Giants' OL. I don't want to rehash all the data (such as the fact that Eli actually had the best 3-year run of his career between 2014-2016) that showed until recently that just wasn't the case. So imagine my incredulity when in a season in which the OL was truly historically bad, all those same people all of a sudden started screaming 'we need a new QB!' with barely a peep about the OL which for a long time this fall was on pace to give up over 100 sacks.
Can the Giants do better at QB? Of course, but so can probably more than half the teams in the league. Can they make the playoffs with Jones? What, was no one paying attention in 2022 when Jones led a team that really didn't have much star power to ten wins including a road-win over the #2 seed. Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend.
In fact, the Giants have told us that Jones will be the starter in 2024 once he's healthy and if they have any concerns at the position its having some insurance if Jones is limited at any time this fall. And re-listening to GM Joe Schoen's season-ending presser it seemed pretty clear that their main goal at QB this off-season will be to find someone - most likely a veteran free agent - capable of stepping in and winning games if Jones can't play.
Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility of also addressing the position at the 2024 draft, especially given they have the 6th pick overall this coming April, especially because I suspect it may be the last time the Giants pick this early in a while. Ultimately what it comes down to for Schoen and company (who are not drafting to save their jobs) but to try and win a championship, are your odds better by trying a new QB (who lets be honest here will have a pretty small chance of being an elite franchise guy) or do you build up the rest of the team around Jones which lets be honest has never ever been very good.
Time will tell!
But the anonymous source said!
Thank you for sanity and for expressing your point in a way that feels fair rather than derogatory
Do you agree with this particular line?
Given that 14 teams make the playoffs each year, would you agree that 44% of the league has a legitimate chance to win the Super Bowl in any given year? Would you claim that each of the 14 playoff teams have the same probability of winning the Super Bowl?
Because that to me felt like a completely empty statement, based on nothing factual, likely to be wrong, and it also forms the foundation of Colin's entire point, IMO.
Parity is not a strategy.
That is one of the most laughable lines I've ever read at BBI.
Indeed, it does sound like something we would hear from Gettleman. And it doesn't take much imagination to believe all of the family members at 1925 Giants Way would say the same damn thing.
I believe that playoff win over Minnesota may still be the reason why Schoen passes on taking a QB in this draft on day one or two.
Until proven otherwise, this is still on the back of Schoen's SUV...
It's essentially the Giants organizational mission statement.
A statement like that suggests people who watched the playoff win over the Vikings and forgot everything that happened after that.
The 2022 Giants were never good enough to win the Super Bowl, and the evidence of that is that they didn't even belong on the same field as the Eagles in the playoffs.
Every year you can pretty much rule out 2-3 teams in each conference playoff field.
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Eric, my friend, I am sorry you feel that way. I've been at this going on 70 years and I am more than just a little excited about the direction the Giants are headed in. At the same time, I can understand people's frustration (as I have said jokingly to others privately its been what 18 games since the Giants won a playoff game!)
But I also understand its a process. No question the Giants really did bottom out between 2017 and 2021 when they posted a really dismal 22-59 W-L record over those 5 campaigns. And given that record as a starting point, its more than a tad unreasonable to expect the Giants to be competing for a title barely two years into the actual rebuild. We also remind people that it took the Giants a full 8 seasons to win their first Super Bowl after George Young took over the team at the end of the 1978 season as the team emerged from the dreaded '70s. Indeed, in Young's first 5 seasons, the Giants record was an almost equally dismal 26-46-1, including a 3-12-1 catastrophe in 1983 the year before they finally got truly competitive.
And I don't believe for a moment the Giants are a 6-win team going forward. Three of their losses this year came in games decided on the last play of the contest and in all three the odds heavily favored the Giants making the play. Bottom line is that the Giants right now are pretty much a .500 football that won some close ones in 2022 and lost them this past fall. We also fully expect the Giants to come into training camp next fall with a burr under their collective saddle and bounce back to at least the 9-10 win range and compete for a playoff spot in the somewhat diluted NFC next fall.
We suggest all that, not because we tend to be eternal optimists when it comes to sports - which we confess we are - but because we see the Giants ever so steadily building up a solid core of good young players. Needless to say, of course, they still need more.
Re the QB situation: I'm going to be real honest here. Fact is I just don't understand where the tidal wave of 'Daniel Jones must go' has come from. And a little context here. I spent the better part of the past decade trying to refute all the people literally screaming at me from literally every angle that the Giants just had to fix the offensive line: that the lack of a decent OL ruined the back half of Eli's career; and that no QB could possibly prosper with the Giants' OL. I don't want to rehash all the data (such as the fact that Eli actually had the best 3-year run of his career between 2014-2016) that showed until recently that just wasn't the case. So imagine my incredulity when in a season in which the OL was truly historically bad, all those same people all of a sudden started screaming 'we need a new QB!' with barely a peep about the OL which for a long time this fall was on pace to give up over 100 sacks.
Can the Giants do better at QB? Of course, but so can probably more than half the teams in the league. Can they make the playoffs with Jones? What, was no one paying attention in 2022 when Jones led a team that really didn't have much star power to ten wins including a road-win over the #2 seed. Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend.
In fact, the Giants have told us that Jones will be the starter in 2024 once he's healthy and if they have any concerns at the position its having some insurance if Jones is limited at any time this fall. And re-listening to GM Joe Schoen's season-ending presser it seemed pretty clear that their main goal at QB this off-season will be to find someone - most likely a veteran free agent - capable of stepping in and winning games if Jones can't play.
Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility of also addressing the position at the 2024 draft, especially given they have the 6th pick overall this coming April, especially because I suspect it may be the last time the Giants pick this early in a while. Ultimately what it comes down to for Schoen and company (who are not drafting to save their jobs) but to try and win a championship, are your odds better by trying a new QB (who lets be honest here will have a pretty small chance of being an elite franchise guy) or do you build up the rest of the team around Jones which lets be honest has never ever been very good.
Time will tell!
But the anonymous source said!
Thank you for sanity and for expressing your point in a way that feels fair rather than derogatory
The problem with the last line of the statement should be evident. Building up a team around Jones is much more difficult than it would have been in years 1-5, simply because Jones now accounts for a much larger portion of the salary cap. Jones is an NFL backup qb making top half of the league qb money. This prohibits both signing of new talent and retaining what talent the Giants have at league competitive contracts. Effectively, the team would need to hit on every draft pick this year and next, which is a statistical improbability.
But I also understand its a process. No question the Giants really did bottom out between 2017 and 2021 when they posted a really dismal 22-59 W-L record over those 5 campaigns. And given that record as a starting point, its more than a tad unreasonable to expect the Giants to be competing for a title barely two years into the actual rebuild. We also remind people that it took the Giants a full 8 seasons to win their first Super Bowl after George Young took over the team at the end of the 1978 season as the team emerged from the dreaded '70s. Indeed, in Young's first 5 seasons, the Giants record was an almost equally dismal 26-46-1, including a 3-12-1 catastrophe in 1983 the year before they finally got truly competitive.
And I don't believe for a moment the Giants are a 6-win team going forward. Three of their losses this year came in games decided on the last play of the contest and in all three the odds heavily favored the Giants making the play. Bottom line is that the Giants right now are pretty much a .500 football that won some close ones in 2022 and lost them this past fall. We also fully expect the Giants to come into training camp next fall with a burr under their collective saddle and bounce back to at least the 9-10 win range and compete for a playoff spot in the somewhat diluted NFC next fall.
We suggest all that, not because we tend to be eternal optimists when it comes to sports - which we confess we are - but because we see the Giants ever so steadily building up a solid core of good young players. Needless to say, of course, they still need more.
Re the QB situation: I'm going to be real honest here. Fact is I just don't understand where the tidal wave of 'Daniel Jones must go' has come from. And a little context here. I spent the better part of the past decade trying to refute all the people literally screaming at me from literally every angle that the Giants just had to fix the offensive line: that the lack of a decent OL ruined the back half of Eli's career; and that no QB could possibly prosper with the Giants' OL. I don't want to rehash all the data (such as the fact that Eli actually had the best 3-year run of his career between 2014-2016) that showed until recently that just wasn't the case. So imagine my incredulity when in a season in which the OL was truly historically bad, all those same people all of a sudden started screaming 'we need a new QB!' with barely a peep about the OL which for a long time this fall was on pace to give up over 100 sacks.
Can the Giants do better at QB? Of course, but so can probably more than half the teams in the league. Can they make the playoffs with Jones? What, was no one paying attention in 2022 when Jones led a team that really didn't have much star power to ten wins including a road-win over the #2 seed. Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend.
In fact, the Giants have told us that Jones will be the starter in 2024 once he's healthy and if they have any concerns at the position its having some insurance if Jones is limited at any time this fall. And re-listening to GM Joe Schoen's season-ending presser it seemed pretty clear that their main goal at QB this off-season will be to find someone - most likely a veteran free agent - capable of stepping in and winning games if Jones can't play.
Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility of also addressing the position at the 2024 draft, especially given they have the 6th pick overall this coming April, especially because I suspect it may be the last time the Giants pick this early in a while. Ultimately what it comes down to for Schoen and company (who are not drafting to save their jobs) but to try and win a championship, are your odds better by trying a new QB (who lets be honest here will have a pretty small chance of being an elite franchise guy) or do you build up the rest of the team around Jones which lets be honest has never ever been very good.
Time will tell!
Hello Colin - Just like lst year I disagreed with you - this year the same other than possible direction of team in the future but my view is that they have a legit shot to get a QB. This stuff some would mention about trading up to 1 etc was all nuts. But there are 4/5/6 potential good QB's potential-wise. That's where I am excited.
As far as this year -- I disagree with nearly everything you say. Everything you say - I'm of the opposite view in terms of expectations this upcoming year. I'm hoping you are right. But IMO you will make this same post next year - and next year this post maybe be much more applicable. Name some points you wish to discuss why the team will be so much better - I'm sure 90% me or someone else will have a counter. And not things like :The OL can't be any worse so by default that makes the Giants better . . ."
Here are the starters from the Minnesota game, with the players currently under contract for 2024 not struck through.
14 months and two off seasons removed from a game is an eternity.
Daniel Jones
Saquon Barkley
Isaiah Hodgins
Darius Slayton
Richie James
Daniel Bellinger
Nick Gates
Andrew Thomas
Evan Neal
Mark Glowinski
Jon Feliciano
Leonard Williams
Dexter Lawrence
Azeez Ojulari
Kayvon Thibodeaux
Jaylon Smith
Jarrad Davis
Adoree' Jackson
Darnay Holmes
Julian Love
Xavier McKinney
Fabian Moreau
As far as this year -- I disagree with nearly everything you say. Everything you say - I'm of the opposite view in terms of expectations this upcoming year. I'm hoping you are right. But IMO you will make this same post next year - and next year this post maybe be much more applicable. Name some points you wish to discuss why the team will be so much better - I'm sure 90% me or someone else will have a counter. And not things like :The OL can't be any worse so by default that makes the Giants better . . ."
Quote:
As far as this year -- I disagree with nearly everything you say. Everything you say - I'm of the opposite view in terms of expectations this upcoming year. I'm hoping you are right. But IMO you will make this same post next year - and next year this post maybe be much more applicable. Name some points you wish to discuss why the team will be so much better - I'm sure 90% me or someone else will have a counter. And not things like :The OL can't be any worse so by default that makes the Giants better . . ."
I hope so!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
In comment 16403546 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Eric, my friend, I am sorry you feel that way. I've been at this going on 70 years and I am more than just a little excited about the direction the Giants are headed in. At the same time, I can understand people's frustration (as I have said jokingly to others privately its been what 18 games since the Giants won a playoff game!)
But I also understand its a process. No question the Giants really did bottom out between 2017 and 2021 when they posted a really dismal 22-59 W-L record over those 5 campaigns. And given that record as a starting point, its more than a tad unreasonable to expect the Giants to be competing for a title barely two years into the actual rebuild. We also remind people that it took the Giants a full 8 seasons to win their first Super Bowl after George Young took over the team at the end of the 1978 season as the team emerged from the dreaded '70s. Indeed, in Young's first 5 seasons, the Giants record was an almost equally dismal 26-46-1, including a 3-12-1 catastrophe in 1983 the year before they finally got truly competitive.
And I don't believe for a moment the Giants are a 6-win team going forward. Three of their losses this year came in games decided on the last play of the contest and in all three the odds heavily favored the Giants making the play. Bottom line is that the Giants right now are pretty much a .500 football that won some close ones in 2022 and lost them this past fall. We also fully expect the Giants to come into training camp next fall with a burr under their collective saddle and bounce back to at least the 9-10 win range and compete for a playoff spot in the somewhat diluted NFC next fall.
We suggest all that, not because we tend to be eternal optimists when it comes to sports - which we confess we are - but because we see the Giants ever so steadily building up a solid core of good young players. Needless to say, of course, they still need more.
Re the QB situation: I'm going to be real honest here. Fact is I just don't understand where the tidal wave of 'Daniel Jones must go' has come from. And a little context here. I spent the better part of the past decade trying to refute all the people literally screaming at me from literally every angle that the Giants just had to fix the offensive line: that the lack of a decent OL ruined the back half of Eli's career; and that no QB could possibly prosper with the Giants' OL. I don't want to rehash all the data (such as the fact that Eli actually had the best 3-year run of his career between 2014-2016) that showed until recently that just wasn't the case. So imagine my incredulity when in a season in which the OL was truly historically bad, all those same people all of a sudden started screaming 'we need a new QB!' with barely a peep about the OL which for a long time this fall was on pace to give up over 100 sacks.
Can the Giants do better at QB? Of course, but so can probably more than half the teams in the league. Can they make the playoffs with Jones? What, was no one paying attention in 2022 when Jones led a team that really didn't have much star power to ten wins including a road-win over the #2 seed. Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend.
In fact, the Giants have told us that Jones will be the starter in 2024 once he's healthy and if they have any concerns at the position its having some insurance if Jones is limited at any time this fall. And re-listening to GM Joe Schoen's season-ending presser it seemed pretty clear that their main goal at QB this off-season will be to find someone - most likely a veteran free agent - capable of stepping in and winning games if Jones can't play.
Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility of also addressing the position at the 2024 draft, especially given they have the 6th pick overall this coming April, especially because I suspect it may be the last time the Giants pick this early in a while. Ultimately what it comes down to for Schoen and company (who are not drafting to save their jobs) but to try and win a championship, are your odds better by trying a new QB (who lets be honest here will have a pretty small chance of being an elite franchise guy) or do you build up the rest of the team around Jones which lets be honest has never ever been very good.
Time will tell!
But the anonymous source said!
Thank you for sanity and for expressing your point in a way that feels fair rather than derogatory
Do you agree with this particular line?
Quote:
Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl.
Given that 14 teams make the playoffs each year, would you agree that 44% of the league has a legitimate chance to win the Super Bowl in any given year? Would you claim that each of the 14 playoff teams have the same probability of winning the Super Bowl?
Because that to me felt like a completely empty statement, based on nothing factual, likely to be wrong, and it also forms the foundation of Colin's entire point, IMO.
Parity is not a strategy.
Quote:
In comment 16403581 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16403564 giantstock said:
Quote:
2--- This stuff abouut Giants need to appease the fans is laughable.
I guess you weren't a fan in 2017 or the half decade that followed?
If he did it all the time then you would be referncing more than just two, right?
ANd because he was stupid in those circumstances doesn't mean it should be a need by the GM's. There were laughable decisons before and to feel a need to be dumb again is further laughable when you can get a QB at 6 or 5 - without trading 1st 3 rd picks.
No one said "all the time."
I guess if you change the terms of the argument, you can make your case against that made up version instead, sure.
SO the pooint of yoru post was to give me one example that I wasnt following in 1 year which made my post wrong in some manner? One exaample over how many years?
I get it that we dislike each other. But you don't need to invent things just because you want to pick a fight with me. Just move on.
40-0
30-12
24-3
31-16
The lone win was a miracle comeback vs the 4th worst team in NFL that didn’t have Kyler Murray after getting shutout for a half
1-4 your season is over every single year
This team beat the Cards, Pats, Washington twice, a DOA Eagles team in last week of season and the Pack.
4 wins vs the bottom 4 teams in NFL. The only win worth its salt was against the Packers
Yeah its great the Giants didn’t go into the tank to end the year but lets not fool ourselves thinking we are onto something here
But I also understand its a process. No question the Giants really did bottom out between 2017 and 2021 when they posted a really dismal 22-59 W-L record over those 5 campaigns. And given that record as a starting point, its more than a tad unreasonable to expect the Giants to be competing for a title barely two years into the actual rebuild. We also remind people that it took the Giants a full 8 seasons to win their first Super Bowl after George Young took over the team at the end of the 1978 season as the team emerged from the dreaded '70s. Indeed, in Young's first 5 seasons, the Giants record was an almost equally dismal 26-46-1, including a 3-12-1 catastrophe in 1983 the year before they finally got truly competitive.
And I don't believe for a moment the Giants are a 6-win team going forward. Three of their losses this year came in games decided on the last play of the contest and in all three the odds heavily favored the Giants making the play. Bottom line is that the Giants right now are pretty much a .500 football that won some close ones in 2022 and lost them this past fall. We also fully expect the Giants to come into training camp next fall with a burr under their collective saddle and bounce back to at least the 9-10 win range and compete for a playoff spot in the somewhat diluted NFC next fall.
We suggest all that, not because we tend to be eternal optimists when it comes to sports - which we confess we are - but because we see the Giants ever so steadily building up a solid core of good young players. Needless to say, of course, they still need more.
Re the QB situation: I'm going to be real honest here. Fact is I just don't understand where the tidal wave of 'Daniel Jones must go' has come from. And a little context here. I spent the better part of the past decade trying to refute all the people literally screaming at me from literally every angle that the Giants just had to fix the offensive line: that the lack of a decent OL ruined the back half of Eli's career; and that no QB could possibly prosper with the Giants' OL. I don't want to rehash all the data (such as the fact that Eli actually had the best 3-year run of his career between 2014-2016) that showed until recently that just wasn't the case. So imagine my incredulity when in a season in which the OL was truly historically bad, all those same people all of a sudden started screaming 'we need a new QB!' with barely a peep about the OL which for a long time this fall was on pace to give up over 100 sacks.
Can the Giants do better at QB? Of course, but so can probably more than half the teams in the league. Can they make the playoffs with Jones? What, was no one paying attention in 2022 when Jones led a team that really didn't have much star power to ten wins including a road-win over the #2 seed. Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend.
In fact, the Giants have told us that Jones will be the starter in 2024 once he's healthy and if they have any concerns at the position its having some insurance if Jones is limited at any time this fall. And re-listening to GM Joe Schoen's season-ending presser it seemed pretty clear that their main goal at QB this off-season will be to find someone - most likely a veteran free agent - capable of stepping in and winning games if Jones can't play.
Giants have the worst record in the NFL since 2013, that's a decade long of misery for fans. Fans that have been saying for 3 years that Daniel Jones isn't the QB thats going to make them any better. Making the playoffs in 2016 and 2022 were a fluke. Both times the team had a 1st year head coach and there was no expectation and opponents didn't have film on the team (see 2017 and 2023).
What from the first 4 years of Jones' career said "thats the guy whos going to win the Giants a super bowl"?
As far as 2024 goes, I just don't see how the Giants win 9-10 games. Automatic 4 losses in the division, another 4 vs the AFC Central, @ Seattle, New Orleans, Bucs...thats 6-11 right there. Strong possibility of losing in Washington and to the Vikings, depending on what they do w/ Cousins and JJ.