“Giants MUST to trade up for QB”

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fans and talking heads can advocate for patience all they want, but every year there are orgs that are aggressive and make it work. the aggressiveness can be taking a chance on an outside-the-box coach or trading up for a qb, but even if this formula only works 10% of the time, it still works and it turns orgs around. this org needs to turn it around - they realistically can't get that much worse. there is value in swinging for the fences with fans, even if you strike out, imo. this org has done very little of that (and often the opposite) since, I dunno, trading up for Eli.

do your research, target a qb, and go get him.

or #3. I doubt Washington trades down from #2

1st. The Giants shouldn't be in the big FA market to begin with.....the Giants are still in roster building mode.

Get dependable, if not highly sought FA.....combined with 4 solid draftees.

Sure, get a QB....if he will be significantly better than Jones....but not for preception....but out right better play.
Now, rarely, do coach and gm on a hot seat goes with a rookie.....so I hope the Giants get lucky!

Also, current OL will not allow any QB to be successful imo. The trenches still suck.....and must be fixed.

The defense has more opportunity to be good.

This isn't going to sit well with the "Anyone who thinks the staff is on the hot seat is an idiot" crowd.

We do to have enough depth to be giving away draft to picks LOL

argument I've been making.

Free agents don't want to come to the Giants is an idiot. Free agents go where the money and playing time is. Just look at the sorry Washington franchise. They continually signed bi name free agents under Snyder.

until the QB does. Get the heads out of the sand and make it happen. It's past time to kill the half-measures approach.

In comment 16403185 4xchamps said:

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Free agents don't want to come to the Giants is an idiot. Free agents go where the money and playing time is. Just look at the sorry Washington franchise. They continually signed bi name free agents under Snyder.

If the money is similar, they will go elsewhere unless they think there is some stability.

So I must be an idiot.

If Drake Maye is the guy they trade up for. Would that hurt if they choose him over Jayden Daniels?

the issue isn't FAs, as I have written (including that long article I did), a new QB buys Schoen and Daboll time.

You might not like it, but it does.

If the Giants go into 2024 with Daniel Jones as the unquestioned starter, it's easy to predict what will happen.

but i think a lot of the narratives re why/what it means for the roster are a little off target.

No need to trade up

I don't think Mara gives a flying fuck what 'league sources' say, unfortunately.

In comment 16403197 HardTruth said:

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No need to trade up

What?...JJ is the most popular topic there is on BBI right now. With numerous posters basically suggesting he is just short of Superman in terms of ability.

We will need to go up to overall #1 to have any chance at McCarthy.

But I could be wrong

if the Giants trade up to 1 at any point pre-draft, especially so during the combine.

I think there are a number of promising Qb's at the top of this draft and this OL is a disaster. Unless we're thinking about trading for Lamar Jackson, every QB rookie or not will be negatively affected by that starting 5.

Jones is coming off an ACL tear.

DeVito is the only other QB under contract.

If NYG signs a vet QB early in FA for insurance that Jones may not be ready for training camp then they may go WR in round 1.

Otherwise I would expect a QB to be the first round target.

If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results…. Then running Jones & Barkley out there again in 2024 what are we going to get?

I’m not alone in my feeling that I just have no interest in watching that combination again.

To get some big-name or high-end free agents eventually. No great team relies entirely on bargain basement FAs and draftees to fill the entire roster. Sometimes you need a Guy and you need to shell out the money for them.

The 2007 Superbowl team was shaped in part by the McKenzie, Plax, and Pierce FA class, not to mention guys like Sam Madison. The 2011 Superbowl team had Canty, Rolle, etc.

The team can't lay low forever just because Gettleman failed in free agency (though I actually think either one of Adoree Jackson or Bradburry would have been fine, not both of them). A QB trajectory to sell would certainly help with this process.

sticking with Jones can give Schoen more time to address the roster overall. Daboll is dependent on a lot of other factors. I am not against trading up but if that pick doesn't work out then both are probably gone imv.

I can see JS going the safer route. Trading back in the 1st (QB may be BPA) or getting one in the late 1st/2nd round.

If team progresses significantly (even if QB is still a bit problematic) I think both can stick. JS may want a new HC in 2025.

That's the motivation. I have never heard this said of any QB needy team that FAs won't go there unless they have a QB. But anyway, that's not the reason.

We need to make a push to secure a franchise QB because we likely don't have one. Let's not overcomplicate this.

Thank you for posting GoDeep13. Always appreciated.

whole commentary reeks of the desperation that is the core of almost all bad trades. Fifty percent of first round QBs bust. And as someone said, Washington and NE likely won't trade with anyone, and Chicago apparently wants "historic" compensation to move out of #1.

The Giants should take one of the QBs at #6 (even McCarthy, although that would not be my preference), take the BPA at another position, or trade down.

In comment 16403208 Anakim said:

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But I could be wrong

I suspect you’re right. He’s sort of the under the radar guy. Will be interesting to see what happens.

In comment 16403214 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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sticking with Jones can give Schoen more time to address the roster overall. Daboll is dependent on a lot of other factors. I am not against trading up but if that pick doesn't work out then both are probably gone imv. I can see JS going the safer route. Trading back in the 1st (QB may be BPA) or getting one in the late 1st/2nd round. If team progresses significantly (even if QB is still a bit problematic) I think both can stick. JS may want a new HC in 2025.

I can't see it.

As I've said, we get smoked by the Cowboys in the opener with Jones, the stands will be empty in September. That means another house cleaning.

If you get smoked by the Cowboys with a new QB, fans will have more patience.

It's not possible with the Skins for the 2nd overall pick. The Pats want a QB too at #3 overall. The only thing that can change these two clubs from going QB with their respective picks are if they sign someone like Cousins in FA or if they trade for Fields from the Bears, which probably won't cost them more than a couple of picks (a second rounder and a mid-to-late rounder).

The Bears haven't declared one way or another which direction they'll go in with the 1st overall choice. If they have any brains in their collective heads, their front office and coaching staff will go with Caleb Williams. If that happens, then the NYG are out in the cold again and there's nothing they can do about it. Something needs to happen for one of those big three to not be selected in those first three picks. If that "thing"--whatever it may be--does happen, then the Cards at 4 would be great to deal with since they've got their QB on their roster already.

10 years of bad drafts, 10 years of bad cap management, 10 years of horrible FA decisions..

All on Schoen and Daboll to fix in 2-3 years....

In comment 16403214 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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sticking with Jones can give Schoen more time to address the roster overall. Daboll is dependent on a lot of other factors. I am not against trading up but if that pick doesn't work out then both are probably gone imv. I can see JS going the safer route. Trading back in the 1st (QB may be BPA) or getting one in the late 1st/2nd round. If team progresses significantly (even if QB is still a bit problematic) I think both can stick. JS may want a new HC in 2025.

I don't understand this take. Jones is dreadful. Everybody knows it except a small subset of Giants fans. There is nothing safe about Jones anymore. Some people thought signing Jones was safe. How'd that turn out? The only sure thing about sticking with Jones is you'll lose your damn job, like Gettleman, like Shurmur, like Judge, like Jason Garrett, have I left anybody out? Plus he is dreadful to watch.

Desperation is what leads to gross overpay or reach. NYG are not in a good spot at QB. But you don't fix one thing by stacking further poor decisions on top. If NYG does something for the reasons provided in the OP, odds are it will look back at it as a regrettable decision and will be pointing back as an excuse why poor choices were made.

This team is not one year or one player away. We need to make smart unemotional decisions. The frenzied fan base won't understand. But for me personally, I want out of this mess not appeasement.

In comment 16403231 Optimus-NY said:

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It's not possible with the Skins for the 2nd overall pick. The Pats want a QB too at #3 overall. The only thing that can change these two clubs from going QB with their respective picks are if they sign someone like Cousins in FA or if they trade for Fields from the Bears, which probably won't cost them more than a couple of picks (a second rounder and a mid-to-late rounder). The Bears haven't declared one way or another which direction they'll go in with the 1st overall choice. If they have any brains in their collective heads, their front office and coaching staff will go with Caleb Williams. If that happens, then the NYG are out in the cold again and there's nothing they can do about it. Something needs to happen for one of those big three to not be selected in those first three picks. If that "thing"--whatever it may be--does happen, then the Cards at 4 would be great to deal with since they've got their QB on their roster already.

There might not be a partner but there is still a chance QB3 falls to the Giants, and it is likely QB4 falls to the Giants.

Or taking a QB at 6, JS needs to come out of the top of the first round with a QB.

In comment 16403231 Optimus-NY said:

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It's not possible with the Skins for the 2nd overall pick. The Pats want a QB too at #3 overall. The only thing that can change these two clubs from going QB with their respective picks are if they sign someone like Cousins in FA or if they trade for Fields from the Bears, which probably won't cost them more than a couple of picks (a second rounder and a mid-to-late rounder). The Bears haven't declared one way or another which direction they'll go in with the 1st overall choice. If they have any brains in their collective heads, their front office and coaching staff will go with Caleb Williams. If that happens, then the NYG are out in the cold again and there's nothing they can do about it. Something needs to happen for one of those big three to not be selected in those first three picks. If that "thing"--whatever it may be--does happen, then the Cards at 4 would be great to deal with since they've got their QB on their roster already.

I think the move is to #4 but that's only if this is a 4 QB draft (which would presumably be Williams, Maye, Daniels, JJM).

I think it's probably at least a 3 QB draft but I'm not as sure it's 4. I think Daniels is a little overrated by the flashy stats/talent and some holes are overlooked.

And take themselves out of Williams/Maye/Daniels? Someone has to be the team left standing out in the cold, and unfortunately that’s the NYG.

He makes a point of essentially saying the Giants are the only team in the league that believes in DJ. It may be true that the Giants need to replace him and most everyone believes that he has not proven himself to be the answer.

That said, I believe that the biggest mistake the Giants made in the last several years was to NOT trade the #2 pick that they used on Barkley. I don't say that because I think he was the wrong choice at #2, in retrospect, he may have been the second best possible choice after Josh Allen.

I say it because of the VALUE we could have obtained in terms of additional draft capital which could have been carried forward for years. (At least one future #1 plus extra picks, plus still drafting a good player like Nelson or ALLEN). The Giants may be in a similar situation this year and cannot miss the opportunity.

I am very much against a trade up. I think if the QB they like is available at 6, then you take him (McCarthy). Otherwise, it makes sense to trade back and get ahead of the chains as far as draft capital is concerned. That will set the team up for sustained success - see Philly. The Eagles got ahead of the game via trades (Starting with the Sam Bradford trade)and rode the wave for years before cashing out at this year's draft.

The Lions did the same thing with Stafford and cashed out two #1s this year. The Bears may be the next team to do that. How does Carolina's future look? Some may point to Stroud helping to turn around the Texans, but they did not trade up to get him.

Anyway that's my two cents.

That he said he’s heard there is a trade out there to be made. But it would require a pretty hefty bite of the bullet. He said he heard the conversation starts at 3 1st round picks.

Good info.

In comment 16403244 GoDeep13 said:

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That he said he’s heard there is a trade out there to be made. But it would require a pretty hefty bite of the bullet. He said he heard the conversation starts at 3 1st round picks.

And this is when it comes to conviction. If it hits, no one cares. If it doesn't, you're fired.

In comment 16403244 GoDeep13 said:

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That he said he’s heard there is a trade out there to be made. But it would require a pretty hefty bite of the bullet. He said he heard the conversation starts at 3 1st round picks.

The Bears are obviously the team willing/looking to trade again.

The question is if 1 QB stands above the others in class? I dont have a strong take on that, i see things i like and dislike about all of them.

In comment 16403240 The_Boss said:

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And take themselves out of Williams/Maye/Daniels? Someone has to be the team left standing out in the cold, and unfortunately that’s the NYG.

Because we don't know their draft board. Teams may like Nix & McCarthy more than Maye & Daniels.

In comment 16403234 UberAlias said:

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Desperation is what leads to gross overpay or reach. NYG are not in a good spot at QB. But you don't fix one thing by stacking further poor decisions on top. If NYG does something for the reasons provided in the OP, odds are it will look back at it as a regrettable decision and will be pointing back as an excuse why poor choices were made. This team is not one year or one player away. We need to make smart unemotional decisions. The frenzied fan base won't understand. But for me personally, I want out of this mess not appeasement.

^This.

In comment 16403244 GoDeep13 said:

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That he said he’s heard there is a trade out there to be made. But it would require a pretty hefty bite of the bullet. He said he heard the conversation starts at 3 1st round picks.

3?? Ok that’s a bit ridiculous. I don’t think any of these guys are Mahomes/Elway/Peyton Manning..

In comment 16403240 The_Boss said:

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And take themselves out of Williams/Maye/Daniels? Someone has to be the team left standing out in the cold, and unfortunately that’s the NYG.

Assume CHI and WAS draft Williams and Maye. There is a chance New England doesn't want Daniels and they either draft MHJ or trade back. That leaves an opening for the Giants to get Daniels or QB4.

In comment 16403249 Sean said:

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In comment 16403240 The_Boss said: Quote: And take themselves out of Williams/Maye/Daniels? Someone has to be the team left standing out in the cold, and unfortunately that’s the NYG. Because we don't know their draft board. Teams may like Nix & McCarthy more than Maye & Daniels.

While true, every media list has these guys as 1-3. The perception, whether true in nfl circles is TBD, Nix and JJ are a clear level below. Schoen cannot settle.

In comment 16403254 The_Boss said:

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In comment 16403244 GoDeep13 said: Quote: That he said he’s heard there is a trade out there to be made. But it would require a pretty hefty bite of the bullet. He said he heard the conversation starts at 3 1st round picks. 3?? Ok that’s a bit ridiculous. I don’t think any of these guys are Mahomes/Elway/Peyton Manning..

Williams might be. Many think he has the traits.

In comment 16403248 Eric on Li said:

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In comment 16403244 GoDeep13 said: Quote: That he said he’s heard there is a trade out there to be made. But it would require a pretty hefty bite of the bullet. He said he heard the conversation starts at 3 1st round picks. The Bears are obviously the team willing/looking to trade again. The question is if 1 QB stands above the others in class? I dont have a strong take on that, i see things i like and dislike about all of them.

Most of the analysts and draft nerds I follow see Caleb Williams as the clear #1 and the Bears would be foolish not to draft him.

#6 is a tweener of a pick.
Either trade up for a QB,or trade back for draft capital and fill a bunch of holes....
Alt is a LT- nope
2 WRS after MHJ- nope
Bowers-nope

Trade up or down

I cannot see them sticking with Fields over drafting Williams. Their situation is similar to the Giants. Fields while having moments does not seem to be the guy. He averages under 200 yards per game passing.

The only difference is that they haven’t paid Fields yet which makes it even easier to move on from him. Would anyone on this site want Fields over Williams knowing you would also have to pay fields the 5th year option and then likely extend him? If Williams pans out in any way the front office of the Bears may never get another job again.

I also do not see the Commanders trading out…especially with the Giants. They need a QB desperately and they have all new ownership, GM, head coach.

New England is the only possibility and that would be if they sign someone in free agency. Unfortunately after Kirk Cousins (coming off an Achilles injury) it is slim pickings.

I could see the possibility if them drafting Harrison Jr. and then trying to get Nix/Penix in round 2. Especially if say they love WIllimas and Daniels and not Maye…Maye is the QB left from the “big 3” and they prefer to go with Harrison Jr who seems like a sure thing.

However i don’t see them trading down…If Harrison goes off the board perhaps we can move up to Arizona’s spot.

Moral of the story is I would be shocked (although happy) if the Giants could move up…especially before free agency even begins.

In comment 16403270 Jarvis said:

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I cannot see them sticking with Fields over drafting Williams. Their situation is similar to the Giants. Fields while having moments does not seem to be the guy. He averages under 200 yards per game passing. The only difference is that they haven’t paid Fields yet which makes it even easier to move on from him. Would anyone on this site want Fields over Williams knowing you would also have to pay fields the 5th year option and then likely extend him? If Williams pans out in any way the front office of the Bears may never get another job again. I also do not see the Commanders trading out…especially with the Giants. They need a QB desperately and they have all new ownership, GM, head coach. New England is the only possibility and that would be if they sign someone in free agency. Unfortunately after Kirk Cousins (coming off an Achilles injury) it is slim pickings. I could see the possibility if them drafting Harrison Jr. and then trying to get Nix/Penix in round 2. Especially if say they love WIllimas and Daniels and not Maye…Maye is the QB left from the “big 3” and they prefer to go with Harrison Jr who seems like a sure thing. However i don’t see them trading down…If Harrison goes off the board perhaps we can move up to Arizona’s spot. Moral of the story is I would be shocked (although happy) if the Giants could move up…especially before free agency even begins.

This is my opinion too. CHI and WAS are near certainties to pick QBs. The it is up to New England to decide if they want the QB leftovers at #3 or draft MHJ and get a QB later. If that happens, and I think there is a chance, then QB3 probably falls to the Giants.

In comment 16403262 Manhattan said:

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In comment 16403248 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16403244 GoDeep13 said: Quote: That he said he’s heard there is a trade out there to be made. But it would require a pretty hefty bite of the bullet. He said he heard the conversation starts at 3 1st round picks. The Bears are obviously the team willing/looking to trade again. The question is if 1 QB stands above the others in class? I dont have a strong take on that, i see things i like and dislike about all of them. Most of the analysts and draft nerds I follow see Caleb Williams as the clear #1 and the Bears would be foolish not to draft him.

He's been the chalk pick for a few years but so was Sam Darnold once upon a time.

Caleb has some ugly tape and this is a really strong class with lots of different options.

‘That’s how you become great man…hang your balls out there.’

Would you trade Thibodeaux, Neal, and Banks for the top QB in this class? I would.

I hope the Giants are open to trading anyone on the roster. Treat this situation like a blank slate with no sacred cows.

to move from six to wherever we're going, so it's a net loss of two first rounders. I wouldn't hesitate at all.

Useless thread on Giants needing to trade up

In comment 16403280 Go Terps said:

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Would you trade Thibodeaux, Neal, and Banks for the top QB in this class? I would. I hope the Giants are open to trading anyone on the roster. Treat this situation like a blank slate with no sacred cows.

That's reasonable, but it again depends on how differently they view the top 4. I'm a little more reluctant on Caleb being worth a premium than most I guess.

When Schoen made the comment in the bye week about going back to their 2018 process and what worked and what didnt (josh allen) i'd be very curious to know what they would have done if they had the #1 OA pick and how differently they graded the 5 guys who went round 1. id imagine whatever their analysis on why Allen worked out for them will inform which traits they most prioritize this year.

DJ is the answer. Fix the rest of the team.

If they start a rookie and the same issues persist on offense (poor OL, lack or running game, etc.) how long do you think fans will be patient? Worse in a trade up imv.

If he stays at 6 he still has his other picks and next years first rounder. If he trades back he receives more assets (2nd and ?). If it is a really bold trade back he gets a first (and other picks) for 2025.

He may wind up trading up. I was just presenting another view and I am not sure where he views the QB's in this draft.

Are going to trade their pick to us because making the Giants better should be their main goal.

Maybe we can call some of the teams at the bottom of the 1st and ask them not to draft players they like so we can draft then in the 2nd.

In comment 16403280 Go Terps said:

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I hope the Giants are open to trading anyone on the roster. Treat this situation like a blank slate with no sacred cows.

+ 1

I'm usually pretty measured too but at this point we need a new direction and that will either come with a new QB or a new coach in 2025. I'm done with DJ and half measures.

What are the current odds in Vegas?

Much more likely they take one at #6, be it a Maye who slips a little or a JJ whom many believe carries the requisite makeup and skillset.

In comment 16403297 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16403280 Go Terps said: Quote: Would you trade Thibodeaux, Neal, and Banks for the top QB in this class? I would. I hope the Giants are open to trading anyone on the roster. Treat this situation like a blank slate with no sacred cows. That's reasonable, but it again depends on how differently they view the top 4. I'm a little more reluctant on Caleb being worth a premium than most I guess. When Schoen made the comment in the bye week about going back to their 2018 process and what worked and what didnt (josh allen) i'd be very curious to know what they would have done if they had the #1 OA pick and how differently they graded the 5 guys who went round 1. id imagine whatever their analysis on why Allen worked out for them will inform which traits they most prioritize this year.

I've been saying the same thing for months - there's a 3 step process I hope the Giants have in place:

1. Scout this QB class heavily (they appear to have done so)
2. Score the QB class and determine which one is the most desirable
3. Determine the minimum amount of resources needed to be certain of drafting the most desirable QB. If it's moving up to 1, move up to 1. If it's sitting at 6, sit at 6.

They are high up enough in this draft that every QB is within their reach. A trade from 6 to 1 is not a pie in the sky fantasy. It is absolutely possible; thus whomever they have highest graded is attainable.

This is why you pay Schoen.

In comment 16403330 JonC said:

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What are the current odds in Vegas? Much more likely they take one at #6, be it a Maye who slips a little or a JJ whom many believe carries the requisite makeup and skillset.

Schoen was part of the front office which traded up for Allen. He's traded up for both Banks & Hyatt. I wouldn't be shocked at all.

Rico has said Schoen and the NYG war room were pissed to miss on Sauce Gardner by one pick, I fully expect NYG to be aggressive. I don't see Chicago and WSH trading out. But, NE might. I could also see him trading up to 4 & 5 so he doesn't miss out on a QB to a team like Atlanta or Vegas.

In comment 16403330 JonC said:

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What are the current odds in Vegas? Much more likely they take one at #6, be it a Maye who slips a little or a JJ whom many believe carries the requisite makeup and skillset.

I think it is Daniels who has a chance to slip, not Maye. I think the Maye slipping talk is over. he's the better prospect and will go 2nd to Washington imo.

In comment 16403337 Sean said:

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In comment 16403330 JonC said: Quote: What are the current odds in Vegas? Much more likely they take one at #6, be it a Maye who slips a little or a JJ whom many believe carries the requisite makeup and skillset. Schoen was part of the front office which traded up for Allen. He's traded up for both Banks & Hyatt. I wouldn't be shocked at all. Rico has said Schoen and the NYG war room were pissed to miss on Sauce Gardner by one pick, I fully expect NYG to be aggressive. I don't see Chicago and WSH trading out. But, NE might. I could also see him trading up to 4 & 5 so he doesn't miss out on a QB to a team like Atlanta or Vegas.

Much higher price tag to trade up to top 3.

Think NE is a strong chance to trade down. The Chargers have a solid chance too as they have holes all over and cap problems.

Giants obviously have holes, but they need to be aggressive to get their QB.

at 6 take... JJ McCarthy and at 9 get Bowers or even Odunze? Then trade Fields for more day 2 picks?

I would do that everyday and twice on Sunday.

In comment 16403333 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16403297 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16403280 Go Terps said: Quote: Would you trade Thibodeaux, Neal, and Banks for the top QB in this class? I would. I hope the Giants are open to trading anyone on the roster. Treat this situation like a blank slate with no sacred cows. That's reasonable, but it again depends on how differently they view the top 4. I'm a little more reluctant on Caleb being worth a premium than most I guess. When Schoen made the comment in the bye week about going back to their 2018 process and what worked and what didnt (josh allen) i'd be very curious to know what they would have done if they had the #1 OA pick and how differently they graded the 5 guys who went round 1. id imagine whatever their analysis on why Allen worked out for them will inform which traits they most prioritize this year. I've been saying the same thing for months - there's a 3 step process I hope the Giants have in place: 1. Scout this QB class heavily (they appear to have done so) 2. Score the QB class and determine which one is the most desirable 3. Determine the minimum amount of resources needed to be certain of drafting the most desirable QB. If it's moving up to 1, move up to 1. If it's sitting at 6, sit at 6. They are high up enough in this draft that every QB is within their reach. A trade from 6 to 1 is not a pie in the sky fantasy. It is absolutely possible; thus whomever they have highest graded is attainable. This is why you pay Schoen.

not exactly true bc i remember our argument from a few months ago when schoen made his comments about qbs pretty clearly, but im glad we have agreement now.

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If I'm betting now, Go Terps : mute : 11/27/2023 1:39 pm : link I think the QB depth chart is: Jones Vet FA (see list of possibilities below) DeVito The vet holds down the fort to start the season until Daniel returns. That's the plan that makes sense to a group that paid Jones and could be out on their asses if they repeat 2023 and start 1-5 or something like that.

Some thoughts on QB going forward based on Schoen's comments - ( New Window )

In comment 16403240 The_Boss said:

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And take themselves out of Williams/Maye/Daniels? Someone has to be the team left standing out in the cold, and unfortunately that’s the NYG.

I agree. It's easy to say they must trade up but you have to have someone that wants to trade. And there's three QB needy teams in front of the Giants let alone a bunch of teams look to trade for those same three QBs .

What I said in November is what I think will happen. It's still what I think is the likeliest scenario.

My 11:52am post from today is what I want them to do.

There's a difference. A big one. The Giants rarely do what I want them to do.

If you look later in that thread you'll see this post from me:

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RE: Who do you have in mind for a vet QB signing? Go Terps : 11/27/2023 2:24 pm : link In comment 16304883 cosmicj said: Quote: Let’s review some of the names. I posted a link to the 2024 FA QBs above. Likely names include: Tannehill Brissett Mariota Darnold Mayfield Minshew Bridgewater Dobbs Please know I'm shaking my head as I've been typing these posts out. I'm not proposing any of this as what I would do. I think this is all a sick fucking joke.

In comment 16403374 Go Terps said:

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What I said in November is what I think will happen. It's still what I think is the likeliest scenario. My 11:52am post from today is what I want them to do. There's a difference. A big one. The Giants rarely do what I want them to do.

ok but that cuts 2 ways - you rarely acknowledge that sometimes what you want them to do wouldnt have ended up working out (like malik willis or really any qb in the 2022 class).

QB decisions are not nearly as simple or likely to succeed as many like to pretend, it helps improve the chances of success by a lot to have favorable conditions as they do this year.

While I agree that the Giants haven't done anything which you've wanted, I just get the sense that all the winds are moving towards QB in the draft.

-Duggan with an article about trading up in his offseason plan.
-Schwartz with a senior bowl article talking about what the league feels about their QB situation.
-Hughes with an article about drafting a QB and the time is now.
-Rapaport with a report about the Giants looking to try to trade up for a QB.
-Jeremiah mocking Daniels to the Giants.

I think Schoen/Daboll will land one of the top six QBs in the draft and a vet brought in.

What will drive many of us crazy though, I'd expect Jones to still have every opportunity to win the job.

In comment 16403301 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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If they start a rookie and the same issues persist on offense (poor OL, lack or running game, etc.) how long do you think fans will be patient? Worse in a trade up imv. If he stays at 6 he still has his other picks and next years first rounder. If he trades back he receives more assets (2nd and ?). If it is a really bold trade back he gets a first (and other picks) for 2025. He may wind up trading up. I was just presenting another view and I am not sure where he views the QB's in this draft.

They will be far more patient than with Jones. You won't convince me otherwise.

In comment 16403376 Go Terps said:

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If you look later in that thread you'll see this post from me: Quote: RE: Who do you have in mind for a vet QB signing? Go Terps : 11/27/2023 2:24 pm : link In comment 16304883 cosmicj said: Quote: Let’s review some of the names. I posted a link to the 2024 FA QBs above. Likely names include: Tannehill Brissett Mariota Darnold Mayfield Minshew Bridgewater Dobbs Please know I'm shaking my head as I've been typing these posts out. I'm not proposing any of this as what I would do. I think this is all a sick fucking joke.

i argued against your reasons for thinking they'd do that in the thread, they didnt make sense then and they dont make sense now. your post in this thread seemed to imply a change of opinion when you said that "they appear to have scouted this class heavily" and "this is why they pay schoen".

I'm for staying at six and see if Williams or Daniels falls to you. Then take them. The Giants have too many needs to be trading away picks. A trade to number one would cost them at a minimum our two second round picks and one from next year's draft. Washington is not going to trade the Giants the 2nd pick.

Daniels would get killed behind our offensive line. What are you going to ask Jones to take that punishment knowing that you drafted his replacement?

If the two QBs are gone at six the Giants should seriously entertain offers to trade down. There will be many good players ready to step in later in round 1, 2 and 3.

Drafting Malik Willis in round 1 of the 2022 draft would have been preferable to what actually took place. The QB depth chart entering 2022 would have been Jones/Willis/Taylor in any order, we wouldn't have given Jones that catastrophic contract, and we'd be right where we are right now except without the Jones albatross hanging over 2024.

You can bring up Malik Willis until the cows come home, but the worst case scenario after picking him is still better than where we are right now.

In comment 16403185 4xchamps said:

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Free agents don't want to come to the Giants is an idiot. Free agents go where the money and playing time is. Just look at the sorry Washington franchise. They continually signed bi name free agents under Snyder.

+1… it’s a fallacy. Free agents follow the money and play on bad teams too with so called bad or unestablished QBs. Makes no sense.

Much more easily than many think. Not excellent, just league average or close to it.

In comment 16403385 Eric on Li said:

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In comment 16403376 Go Terps said: Quote: If you look later in that thread you'll see this post from me: Quote: RE: Who do you have in mind for a vet QB signing? Go Terps : 11/27/2023 2:24 pm : link In comment 16304883 cosmicj said: Quote: Let’s review some of the names. I posted a link to the 2024 FA QBs above. Likely names include: Tannehill Brissett Mariota Darnold Mayfield Minshew Bridgewater Dobbs Please know I'm shaking my head as I've been typing these posts out. I'm not proposing any of this as what I would do. I think this is all a sick fucking joke. i argued against your reasons for thinking they'd do that in the thread, they didnt make sense then and they dont make sense now. your post in this thread seemed to imply a change of opinion when you said that "they appear to have scouted this class heavily" and "this is why they pay schoen".

I still think the most likely scenario is they enter 2024 with the following QB depth chart:

1. Jones
2. Vet to hold down the fort (Taylor/Tannehill/Mariota/etc)
3. Day 3 pick or DeVito

They've gotten 6 games out of that Jones contract. To reverse themselves on Jones again would be a huge surprise to me.

In comment 16403330 JonC said:

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What are the current odds in Vegas? Much more likely they take one at #6, be it a Maye who slips a little or a JJ whom many believe carries the requisite makeup and skillset.

I'll believe it when I see it, too.

If Schoen does force his way up by selling off future picks, I think he buys himself another three years as GM. That's what Mara gave Gettleman with Jones (although the cancer part may have been a factor). So, there is some self-preservation...

Further, if this were to play out, it would be more evidence that Mara has taken his hand off the gavel. And Schoen's hand is the only one swinging it.

(assuming accurate and IMV it seems more accurate than not) it hits home on how bad a draft pick DJ was and how bad a decision it was to sign him up to his "set-for-life" contract.

In comment 16403388 Go Terps said:

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Drafting Malik Willis in round 1 of the 2022 draft would have been preferable to what actually took place. The QB depth chart entering 2022 would have been Jones/Willis/Taylor in any order, we wouldn't have given Jones that catastrophic contract, and we'd be right where we are right now except without the Jones albatross hanging over 2024. You can bring up Malik Willis until the cows come home, but the worst case scenario after picking him is still better than where we are right now.

wrong. he's been exponentially worse than what devito showed last year, and he'd have probably cost them thibodeaux since OL was the bigger need than DL. he has attempted 66 passes, completed approximately half of them, and has 3 ints and no tds. his team moved on from him almost immediately because all of the fears of him being more athlete than qb were glaring.

so if they'd have picked willis they'd have a less promising QB prospect than they actually have, and they'd be down 1 of the top 2 or 3 assets on their current roster.

I hope it's because they are fully committed to that QB not because they think they need to buy more time and goodwill from the fans. That's a sh&tty way to run an organization.

Except the right one. Trade up, stay put, trade back --I don't care. Just get it right.

In comment 16403399 Go Terps said:

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I still think the most likely scenario is they enter 2024 with the following QB depth chart: 1. Jones 2. Vet to hold down the fort (Taylor/Tannehill/Mariota/etc) 3. Day 3 pick or DeVito They've gotten 6 games out of that Jones contract. To reverse themselves on Jones again would be a huge surprise to me.

a) drafting a qb isnt necessarily reversing on jones, it's hedging. not just his injury but the long term. a first round qb would have 2 years of control beyond jones' contract even if he played so well to see the end of it, plus tags beyond that (so 4 total years of control beyond jones). 2 options are better than 1 option (or no option if jones athleticism doesnt come all the way back).

b) i'd bet a lot of money they dont commit meaningful money to any QB (like tannehill) in FA. if taylor is willing to sign back cheap or some other journeyman like glennon was is willing to sign for the minimum i could see that in part because it helps camouflage any draft intentions but their dollars will say a lot more than anything else and i dont think they will be committing dollars to a veteran QB.

at QB. It would have been a clear miss.

Much like missing the evaluation on Jones and giving him the god-awful contract yet evaluating it as an A-type deal for the Giants.

In comment 16403417 Eric on Li said:

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In comment 16403399 Go Terps said: Quote: I still think the most likely scenario is they enter 2024 with the following QB depth chart: 1. Jones 2. Vet to hold down the fort (Taylor/Tannehill/Mariota/etc) 3. Day 3 pick or DeVito They've gotten 6 games out of that Jones contract. To reverse themselves on Jones again would be a huge surprise to me. a) drafting a qb isnt necessarily reversing on jones, it's hedging. not just his injury but the long term. a first round qb would have 2 years of control beyond jones' contract even if he played so well to see the end of it, plus tags beyond that (so 4 total years of control beyond jones). 2 options are better than 1 option (or no option if jones athleticism doesnt come all the way back). b) i'd bet a lot of money they dont commit meaningful money to any QB (like tannehill) in FA. if taylor is willing to sign back cheap or some other journeyman like glennon was is willing to sign for the minimum i could see that in part because it helps camouflage any draft intentions but their dollars will say a lot more than anything else and i dont think they will be committing dollars to a veteran QB.

If they trade up to draft a QB, or if they draft one at 6, that is not hedging on Jones. That is replacing him.

And they will add a vet FA QB; that's practically guaranteed. How much they spend, I don't know. My guess would be similar to what they spent on Taylor before.

But they're not going to exit FA with just Jones and DeVito on the depth chart.

In comment 16403228 Eric from BBI said:

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As I've said, we get smoked by the Cowboys in the opener with Jones, the stands will be empty in September. That means another house cleaning. If you get smoked by the Cowboys with a new QB, fans will have more patience.

IMO, Eric, there's no way Daboll will start a rookie in the first game of the year against Dallas.

I'm not arguing that the stands might be empty by September, but you can't cripple a new QB (mentally, physically or both) by exposing him to the Cowboy pass rush. Nor can you expect a rookie to absorb Daboll's offense or be familiar with his WR's with the limited amount of time (OTA's, Camp) that football teams have now.

It takes time to get used the the speed of the game in the NFL, it will be NOTHING like what they saw in college. I think a new QB can be worked in early against teams of lesser caliber than Dallas or Philly early in the season.

I expect either Jones will start (if healthy) or DeVito/FA QB against Dallas if that's the first game of the year. John Mara simply isn't going to cut Schoen/Daboll in 2024, they will get at least the 2025 season to turn things around, unless Daboll has a Judge meltdown.

I agree.

have warts. Many pundits state that Williams is a generational talent. I really think the Giants need to bring Caleb Williams into their interview room and ask some serious questions. He may have all the traits, but upstairs is very important concern. I’m concerned about a very fragile ego in a big market and how he handles it. I would really like for them to ask Caleb Williams why he did not address the media after the UCLA loss. Giving up three first round picks for a candidate to trade up with a risk of imploding is very concerning to me.

but obviously they need a receptive trade partner to be successful.

In comment 16403388 Go Terps said:

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Drafting Malik Willis in round 1 of the 2022 draft would have been preferable to what actually took place. The QB depth chart entering 2022 would have been Jones/Willis/Taylor in any order, we wouldn't have given Jones that catastrophic contract, and we'd be right where we are right now except without the Jones albatross hanging over 2024. You can bring up Malik Willis until the cows come home, but the worst case scenario after picking him is still better than where we are right now.

Lol. So basically any prediction that you make - including if you are catastrophically wrong about that prediction - you still can come on this message board and say well actually it would have been a decent outcome if we drafted Willis!

Do you realize how insane that is?

But, even trading up, are FAs going to feel the Giants are ready to win?

Plus as mentioned, the FA period starts real soon, so the trade up would be now and the message that a QB is coming has to be vocalized, which tips their hand and hurts their leverage.

Doubt it happens this way.

In comment 16403338 Manhattan said:

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In comment 16403330 JonC said: Quote: What are the current odds in Vegas? Much more likely they take one at #6, be it a Maye who slips a little or a JJ whom many believe carries the requisite makeup and skillset. I think it is Daniels who has a chance to slip, not Maye. I think the Maye slipping talk is over. he's the better prospect and will go 2nd to Washington imo.

I sure hope JD doesn't go to Washington, but if they can't trade up.for CW I think he is their likely choice as he projects to thrive in an offense like Kingsbury's

In comment 16403280 Go Terps said:

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Would you trade Thibodeaux, Neal, and Banks for the top QB in this class? I would. I hope the Giants are open to trading anyone on the roster. Treat this situation like a blank slate with no sacred cows.

Would I trade the best edge rusher the team has had in a decade and our best cornerback we've drafted in a decade to get a top QB? No, I would not.

I'd be fine with Daniels going to Washington. He's not the NFL prospect everyone thinks he is.

And knowing Peters' background, I would actually be somewhat shocked if they drafted Daniels at 2.

might buy D/S another year, but if that QB is a miss, it hastens both out the door because of the resources lost to trade.

Picking a QB at 6 (or later in first or second rounds) might not get you the one you really want, but you still get the year or two grace period and you still have the rest of your picks to improve the team elsewhere.

Sticking with DJ and/or a low quality vet really puts D/S necks on the chopping block. This is the option that requires the most conviction. They may not see him as the long term answer, but they would have to believe he's good enough to kick the can down the road.

From a pure 'how do keep my job the longest' standpoint, I see picking a QB without trading up as the safest option.

Schoen and Daboll saw Jones play good winning football, at times really good QB play, in 2022 when he had a decently working OL.

A poor start, historically horrific OL play and torn knee is not going to change their opinion that he can't play better than his 2022 season.

"....
ryanmkeane : 1:23 pm : link : reply
Schoen and Daboll saw Jones play good winning football, at times really good QB play, in 2022 when he had a decently working OL.

A poor start, historically horrific OL play and torn knee is not going to change their opinion that he can't play better than his 2022 season."

This is where I'm at, sort of. I don't think DJ is as bad as the BBI hysteria would have you believe. He also isn't good enough for the long term, so if a QB can be drafted, I would do it in a heartbeat. But, don't trade up out of desperation and give up too much to do so. Don't take a QB at 6 just to draft one. IF a QB they like is within reach, they absolutely should draft him.

The Giants would be in a much better position if they had picked Willis instead of Neal.

This is a simple exercise:

Scenario A: Daniel Jones + Evan Neal
Scenario B: Malik Willis + Mike McGlinchey + 72.5M

In both scenarios you're picking a QB in 2024, but in scenario B you had a real chance of signing a solid right tackle, with plenty money to left to invest in other areas.

But you don't have that one glorious night in Minneapolis.

In comment 16403456 fkap said:

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".... This is where I'm at, sort of. I don't think DJ is as bad as the BBI hysteria would have you believe. He also isn't good enough for the long term, so if a QB can be drafted, I would do it in a heartbeat. But, don't trade up out of desperation and give up too much to do so. Don't take a QB at 6 just to draft one. IF a QB they like is within reach, they absolutely should draft him.

After five years, I think we have satisfied the long term, too.

In comment 16403169 Anakim said:

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.

Jack Stroud would tell you to sign Jones to a lifetime extension.

In comment 16403457 christian said:

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The Giants would be in a much better position if they had picked Willis instead of Neal. This is a simple exercise: Scenario A: Daniel Jones + Evan Neal Scenario B: Malik Willis + Mike McGlinchey + 72.5M In both scenarios you're picking a QB in 2024, but in scenario B you had a real chance of signing a solid right tackle, with plenty money to left to invest in other areas. But you don't have that one glorious night in Minneapolis.

It assumes that Jones doesn't play though. And Jones would have likely beat out Willis and we still would have had the glorious night in Minnesota.

Your foresight about what would have happened prior to the 5th year option decision would have still been correct. Jones was always getting 2 years with Daboll. They would have been better picking up the option.

Forget Willis. The better outcome would have been trading Jones in 2022 and starting Tyrod Taylor. If you want to draft Willis or a cheap vet, it doesn't matter. Jones on the roster was the problem.

I think Jones played well in 2022 and Schoen repeatedly said, "he's done everything we've asked of him." The problem was they trapped themselves with him being a pending FA.

Schoen's error was not either picking up his 5th year option or trading him in 2022.

In comment 16403457 christian said:

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The Giants would be in a much better position if they had picked Willis instead of Neal. This is a simple exercise: Scenario A: Daniel Jones + Evan Neal Scenario B: Malik Willis + Mike McGlinchey + 72.5M In both scenarios you're picking a QB in 2024, but in scenario B you had a real chance of signing a solid right tackle, with plenty money to left to invest in other areas. But you don't have that one glorious night in Minneapolis.

How about Denzel Ward + Nick Chubb + Josh Allen edge + Justin Herbert + Rashawn Slater and a free agent right tackle? Gettleman was the worst

In comment 16403453 ryanmkeane said:

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Schoen and Daboll saw Jones play good winning football, at times really good QB play, in 2022 when he had a decently working OL. A poor start, historically horrific OL play and torn knee is not going to change their opinion that he can't play better than his 2022 season.

Never change.

In comment 16403447 ryanmkeane said:

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I'd be fine with Daniels going to Washington. He's not the NFL prospect everyone thinks he is.

My gut tells me Josh Harris and Co are going to push for trading a historic haul to move up a spot along the lines of 2 1sts and 2 2nds for CW.

In comment 16403465 Sean said:

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In comment 16403457 christian said: Quote: The Giants would be in a much better position if they had picked Willis instead of Neal. This is a simple exercise: Scenario A: Daniel Jones + Evan Neal Scenario B: Malik Willis + Mike McGlinchey + 72.5M In both scenarios you're picking a QB in 2024, but in scenario B you had a real chance of signing a solid right tackle, with plenty money to left to invest in other areas. But you don't have that one glorious night in Minneapolis. It assumes that Jones doesn't play though. And Jones would have likely beat out Willis and we still would have had the glorious night in Minnesota. Your foresight about what would have happened prior to the 5th year option decision would have still been correct. Jones was always getting 2 years with Daboll. They would have been better picking up the option. Forget Willis. The better outcome would have been trading Jones in 2022 and starting Tyrod Taylor. If you want to draft Willis or a cheap vet, it doesn't matter. Jones on the roster was the problem. I think Jones played well in 2022 and Schoen repeatedly said, "he's done everything we've asked of him." The problem was they trapped themselves with him being a pending FA. Schoen's error was not either picking up his 5th year option or trading him in 2022.

Or just let him walk after 2022. That was almost certainly the original plan that kicked off with declining the option and signing Taylor.

It all lined up well.

In comment 16403457 christian said:

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The Giants would be in a much better position if they had picked Willis instead of Neal. This is a simple exercise: Scenario A: Daniel Jones + Evan Neal Scenario B: Malik Willis + Mike McGlinchey + 72.5M In both scenarios you're picking a QB in 2024, but in scenario B you had a real chance of signing a solid right tackle, with plenty money to left to invest in other areas. But you don't have that one glorious night in Minneapolis.

WTF. We could have drafted Willis in the 3rd round if we wanted him. Also... He sucks

Oh I agree Sean. If I take a moment's pause from my usual predict what will happen schtick, and revisit what I wanted -- it was trade Jones and draft Willis.

Both my ability to guess what happens, and my ability to guess how a player will pan out are somewhere in the single digit success range.

What I do know is I'd trade the playoff win to get out of the Jones deal. And I'd trade nearly any move Schoen has made if it increased the chance of picking a QB on round one.

In comment 16403479 Tim in Eternal Blue said:

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The Giants would be in a much better position if they had picked Willis instead of Neal. This is a simple exercise: Scenario A: Daniel Jones + Evan Neal Scenario B: Malik Willis + Mike McGlinchey + 72.5M In both scenarios you're picking a QB in 2024, but in scenario B you had a real chance of signing a solid right tackle, with plenty money to left to invest in other areas. But you don't have that one glorious night in Minneapolis. WTF. We could have drafted Willis in the 3rd round if we wanted him. Also... He sucks

Of course he sucks. And if the Giants had picked him he'd be a bust and they'd be moving on.

Evan Neal also sucks, and Daniel Jones sucks and costs a lot of money.

Fast forward to today -- do the Giants have a QB and a right tackle?

In comment 16403429 JohnF said:

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In comment 16403228 Eric from BBI said: Quote: As I've said, we get smoked by the Cowboys in the opener with Jones, the stands will be empty in September. That means another house cleaning. If you get smoked by the Cowboys with a new QB, fans will have more patience. IMO, Eric, there's no way Daboll will start a rookie in the first game of the year against Dallas. I'm not arguing that the stands might be empty by September, but you can't cripple a new QB (mentally, physically or both) by exposing him to the Cowboy pass rush. Nor can you expect a rookie to absorb Daboll's offense or be familiar with his WR's with the limited amount of time (OTA's, Camp) that football teams have now. It takes time to get used the the speed of the game in the NFL, it will be NOTHING like what they saw in college. I think a new QB can be worked in early against teams of lesser caliber than Dallas or Philly early in the season. I expect either Jones will start (if healthy) or DeVito/FA QB against Dallas if that's the first game of the year. John Mara simply isn't going to cut Schoen/Daboll in 2024, they will get at least the 2025 season to turn things around, unless Daboll has a Judge meltdown.

You're missing the point.

The point is HOPE.

It doesn't matter if the alternative is playing from day one or sitting on the bench to start the season, at least there will be HOPE.

If Daniel Jones is the unchallenged starter, there is no HOPE.

I've been a Giants fans for more than half a century. I can FEEL the apathy.

'always going to get 2 years under Daboll', they would have picked up the 5th year option. They didn't, because they weren't sold on DJ, but had the tag option as a back up as a rich man's 5th year option. DJ stepped up to the plate enough to put the tag or 2nd contract on the table.

My guess is that if DJ had shit the bed as bad as he did in '23, there'd have been no 2nd contract (certainly not one as lucrative as the one he got) or tag.

league seemed to agree with the Giants passing on Willis.

It would have been interesting to see how it played out if the Giants did pick him at pick 5 or 7. I could see anywhere from about the same spot today to a totally different regime in place.

In comment 16403490 Eric from BBI said:

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You're missing the point. The point is HOPE. It doesn't matter if the alternative is playing from day one or sitting on the bench to start the season, at least there will be HOPE. If Daniel Jones is the unchallenged starter, there is no HOPE. I've been a Giants fans for more than half a century. I can FEEL the apathy.

Yep. If the Giants don't draft a QB in the first two rounds, Schoen is basically signing his own resignation papers. Is he smart enough to see that? That we'll find out, commitment bias can be powerful and if he convinced himself previously Jones was their guy maybe he refuses to see what's in front of him.

In comment 16403210 Rjanyg said:

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Jones is coming off an ACL tear. DeVito is the only other QB under contract. If NYG signs a vet QB early in FA for insurance that Jones may not be ready for training camp then they may go WR in round 1. Otherwise I would expect a QB to be the first round target.

I disagree. Just because they sign a veteran QB does not necessarily mean they forgo a QB in the draft. You're going to need a vet to groom the rookie and I don't think DJ is the person to do that.

In comment 16403498 fkap said:

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'always going to get 2 years under Daboll', they would have picked up the 5th year option. They didn't, because they weren't sold on DJ, but had the tag option as a back up as a rich man's 5th year option. DJ stepped up to the plate enough to put the tag or 2nd contract on the table. My guess is that if DJ had shit the bed as bad as he did in '23, there'd have been no 2nd contract (certainly not one as lucrative as the one he got) or tag.

I think once Schoen kept him on the roster for 2022, it would have taken an exceptionally bad season from Jones for him not to be on the 2023 roster. The type of season that put the Giants in the position to pick Young, Stround, or Richardson.

If he had an average to bad season, I bet the Giants would have signed him to a 1-year deal well short of the franchise tag.

Jones as the unquestioned starter might as well be the team giving the fans the finger.

In comment 16403234 UberAlias said:

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Desperation is what leads to gross overpay or reach. NYG are not in a good spot at QB. But you don't fix one thing by stacking further poor decisions on top. If NYG does something for the reasons provided in the OP, odds are it will look back at it as a regrettable decision and will be pointing back as an excuse why poor choices were made. This team is not one year or one player away. We need to make smart unemotional decisions. The frenzied fan base won't understand. But for me personally, I want out of this mess not appeasement.

All due respect but what's your point? Go QB or BPA?

In comment 16403467 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

In comment 16403453 ryanmkeane said: Quote: Schoen and Daboll saw Jones play good winning football, at times really good QB play, in 2022 when he had a decently working OL. A poor start, historically horrific OL play and torn knee is not going to change their opinion that he can't play better than his 2022 season. Never change.

While the bold makes me sick to my stomach, I would agree with ryan that Schoen could very well hit on hard 16; and he's riding with Jones for 2024 and 2025.

Eric, my friend, I am sorry you feel that way. I've been at this going on 70 years and I am more than just a little excited about the direction the Giants are headed in. At the same time, I can understand people's frustration (as I have said jokingly to others privately its been what 18 games since the Giants won a playoff game!)

But I also understand its a process. No question the Giants really did bottom out between 2017 and 2021 when they posted a really dismal 22-59 W-L record over those 5 campaigns. And given that record as a starting point, its more than a tad unreasonable to expect the Giants to be competing for a title barely two years into the actual rebuild. We also remind people that it took the Giants a full 8 seasons to win their first Super Bowl after George Young took over the team at the end of the 1978 season as the team emerged from the dreaded '70s. Indeed, in Young's first 5 seasons, the Giants record was an almost equally dismal 26-46-1, including a 3-12-1 catastrophe in 1983 the year before they finally got truly competitive.

And I don't believe for a moment the Giants are a 6-win team going forward. Three of their losses this year came in games decided on the last play of the contest and in all three the odds heavily favored the Giants making the play. Bottom line is that the Giants right now are pretty much a .500 football that won some close ones in 2022 and lost them this past fall. We also fully expect the Giants to come into training camp next fall with a burr under their collective saddle and bounce back to at least the 9-10 win range and compete for a playoff spot in the somewhat diluted NFC next fall.

We suggest all that, not because we tend to be eternal optimists when it comes to sports - which we confess we are - but because we see the Giants ever so steadily building up a solid core of good young players. Needless to say, of course, they still need more.

Re the QB situation: I'm going to be real honest here. Fact is I just don't understand where the tidal wave of 'Daniel Jones must go' has come from. And a little context here. I spent the better part of the past decade trying to refute all the people literally screaming at me from literally every angle that the Giants just had to fix the offensive line: that the lack of a decent OL ruined the back half of Eli's career; and that no QB could possibly prosper with the Giants' OL. I don't want to rehash all the data (such as the fact that Eli actually had the best 3-year run of his career between 2014-2016) that showed until recently that just wasn't the case. So imagine my incredulity when in a season in which the OL was truly historically bad, all those same people all of a sudden started screaming 'we need a new QB!' with barely a peep about the OL which for a long time this fall was on pace to give up over 100 sacks.

Can the Giants do better at QB? Of course, but so can probably more than half the teams in the league. Can they make the playoffs with Jones? What, was no one paying attention in 2022 when Jones led a team that really didn't have much star power to ten wins including a road-win over the #2 seed. Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend.

In fact, the Giants have told us that Jones will be the starter in 2024 once he's healthy and if they have any concerns at the position its having some insurance if Jones is limited at any time this fall. And re-listening to GM Joe Schoen's season-ending presser it seemed pretty clear that their main goal at QB this off-season will be to find someone - most likely a veteran free agent - capable of stepping in and winning games if Jones can't play.

Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility of also addressing the position at the 2024 draft, especially given they have the 6th pick overall this coming April, especially because I suspect it may be the last time the Giants pick this early in a while. Ultimately what it comes down to for Schoen and company (who are not drafting to save their jobs) but to try and win a championship, are your odds better by trying a new QB (who lets be honest here will have a pretty small chance of being an elite franchise guy) or do you build up the rest of the team around Jones which lets be honest has never ever been very good.

Time will tell!

In comment 16403456 fkap said:

Quote:

" This is where I'm at, sort of. I don't think DJ is as bad as the BBI hysteria would have you believe. He also isn't good enough for the long term, so if a QB can be drafted, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Jones is similar to Tannenhill, not a guy who is going to get you very far. Also, the Tannenhill contract is viewed as rather bad contract, ala Jones

we're mostly in agreement. The performance of DJ in '22 was going to determine his future. Between good and bad is a big gray area, and where he fell in that area would determine his '23 future.

That's a far cry from 'always going to get 2 years', though. It's closer to he had to earn the 2nd year. Apparently, he earned the 2nd AND the 3rd year with his performance in '22. The question at this point is whether his '23 performance, plus 2 more injuries, have D/S looking for a replacement.

The 2022 mirage 🙄🙄🙄

Appreciate GoDeep for sharing this however.

But whta The A SOurce is suggetng doesn't make sense.

1--- Jut heard How McCarthy is moving up boards and overall Penix is thought to be good. This is thought to be a very good QB class and the Giants have the 6th pick. Yet they need to make a move by dumping 3 1st rd draft picks and forget the other QB's that are thought to be 1st rounders? There are at least 4 1st round QB's.

2--- This stuff abouut Giants need to appease the fans is laughable.

3-- SO if the Ginats don't move up and get McCarthy or Penix - the fans are going to revolt? OFC some fans will hate the pick but overall?

In comment 16403258 Manhattan said:

Quote:

In comment 16403240 The_Boss said: Quote: And take themselves out of Williams/Maye/Daniels? Someone has to be the team left standing out in the cold, and unfortunately that’s the NYG. Assume CHI and WAS draft Williams and Maye. There is a chance New England doesn't want Daniels and they either draft MHJ or trade back. That leaves an opening for the Giants to get Daniels or QB4.

Why should anyone assume that?

I know you think mock drafts are actual data, but they're not.

In comment 16403447 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

I'd be fine with Daniels going to Washington. He's not the NFL prospect everyone thinks he is.

Yours is not the NFL opinion that you think it is.

In comment 16403564 giantstock said:

Quote:

Appreciate GoDeep for sharing this however. But whta The A SOurce is suggetng doesn't make sense. 1--- Jut heard How McCarthy is moving up boards and overall Penix is thought to be good. This is thought to be a very good QB class and the Giants have the 6th pick. Yet they need to make a move by dumping 3 1st rd draft picks and forget the other QB's that are thought to be 1st rounders? There are at least 4 1st round QB's. 2--- This stuff abouut Giants need to appease the fans is laughable. 3-- SO if the Ginats don't move up and get McCarthy or Penix - the fans are going to revolt? OFC some fans will hate the pick but overall?

Exactly. No matter what, the stands won't be empty in September. Stand pat, get a QB at 6 or later. Way too many holes to fill without giving up 4 or 5 premium picks to move up and get the Golden QB and put him on a shitty team with no way to improve it around him.

Quote:

"...what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend."

Sure, Jones could win a Super Bowl, as a backup.

In comment 16403564 giantstock said:

Quote:

2--- This stuff abouut Giants need to appease the fans is laughable.

I guess you weren't a fan in 2017 or the half decade that followed?

Who was unable to take a very good Titans team to the Super Bowl.

In comment 16403581 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 16403564 giantstock said: Quote: 2--- This stuff abouut Giants need to appease the fans is laughable. I guess you weren't a fan in 2017 or the half decade that followed?

If he did it all the time then you would be referncing more than just two, right?

ANd because he was stupid in those circumstances doesn't mean it should be a need by the GM's. There were laughable decisons before and to feel a need to be dumb again is further laughable when you can get a QB at 6 or 5 - without trading 1st 3 rd picks.

In comment 16403588 cosmicj said:

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Who was unable to take a very good Titans team to the Super Bowl.

Their passing stats are similar. I'd say Tannenhill's are actually a tad better

https://stathead.com/football/vs/daniel-jones-vs-ryan-tannehill

In comment 16403588 cosmicj said:

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Who was unable to take a very good Titans team to the Super Bowl.

✅

There are probably about 90 QBs on NFL rosters. Jones would rank in the 40-60 range.

It's incredible how much money he's making. It really is.

In comment 16403603 giantstock said:

Quote:

In comment 16403581 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 16403564 giantstock said: Quote: 2--- This stuff abouut Giants need to appease the fans is laughable. I guess you weren't a fan in 2017 or the half decade that followed? If he did it all the time then you would be referncing more than just two, right? ANd because he was stupid in those circumstances doesn't mean it should be a need by the GM's. There were laughable decisons before and to feel a need to be dumb again is further laughable when you can get a QB at 6 or 5 - without trading 1st 3 rd picks.

No one said "all the time."

I guess if you change the terms of the argument, you can make your case against that made up version instead, sure.

In comment 16403604 uther99 said:

Quote:

In comment 16403588 cosmicj said: Quote: Who was unable to take a very good Titans team to the Super Bowl. Their passing stats are similar. I'd say Tannenhill's are actually a tad better https://stathead.com/football/vs/daniel-jones-vs-ryan-tannehill

I put a lot of stock in yards per pass attempt and Tannehill consistently was above 7 YPA in his prime. I use that as the threshold above which a player is a legit starting QB. Jones never has reached that threshold across a season.

For those who like TD INT ratio, Tannehill’s ratio is quite a bit better than Jones.

A player like Tannehill really puts in question that the surrounding cast can elevate an avg QB.

Most of their wins under Daboll have been close. It means nothing toward the future of the team

In comment 16403177 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

argument I've been making.

As have I. Schoen & Daboll know what the game is and what has happened here in the past. It gets late early. Picking a QB gives them 2 more years imo, the question is who will be there at 6.

Continuing to get talked about like it was an MVP season is embarrassing.

If Sam Howell had that season last year and Washington paid him $160 million we’d all be laughing

I agree with Collin's observations.

The Giants are a better team than their record last year indicated. They easily could have won 8-9 games.

They had a hard schedule that was tied for 12th most difficult and which was compounded by unfavorable travel.

Remember the Giants played most of the season with Devito and Taylor as the QBs, and yet they remained competitive.

Next year I expect a bounce back and a year similar to 2022.
The schedule is favorable with a 9th home game and minimal travel.

The opponents are not nearly as formidable as this past year.

If the Giants can make modest improvements in key areas they can be really good.
The Giants have demonstrated that they can play with the Eagles and Commanders.

Next up is to figure out the Cowboys.

I would like to draft a QB but not at the expense of team building. There is no QB in the draft who is guaranteed to come in and improve the team.

As much as I like the QBs in the draft which one do you think that come in and play like Stroud did last year?

Who will allow the Giants to be competitive?

I do fear trading away assets that are needed to improve the team and then hearing Giants fans complain about the OL, the defense, the receivers, the corners, etc. and how good our QB could be,

People who believe that may be very disappointed on draft day.

And the draft gurus will certainly crucify the Giants if they don't. Of course the Giants don't care about those opinions.

Just based on history, my gut FEELING (also totally irrelevant) is that the odds of them trading up are maybe 10%-15%.

Regardless of outside opinion, I still think the Giants like Jones. They wouldn't have given him the big contract last year had they not. And when I say they "like him," I'm not suggesting they like him forever, but they are at least comfortable with him as a bridge QB if he can stay healthy and play like he did in 2022.

That said, if one of the 3 QB miraculously fell in their laps at 6, I could see them taking him (assuming they like him/trade the pick if not), but that seems like a pipe dream.

Seems far more likely to me they take a blue chip WR, and ride with Jones since they're paying him 40M regardless next year, and kick the can down the road again.

For the Giants to trade up for a QB, they'd have to be in love with one of them. That's no sure thing in itself, but let's say they are.

They then have to come up with the king's ransom that beats any other team's king's ransom. No easy feat, but let's say that happens, too.

Now they have a young QB who, if the Giants are smart, does NOT start/play in 2024 behind the same shitty OL that sent Jones to IR. If you trade up for the QB, you're slapping more band-aids on the OL problem for at least another year.

So to me, if they're paying Jones $40M in 2024 anyway -- let Jones take that beating, and let the rookie QB sit and learn.

So, on draft day this year, they've got their future QB, but they've given up the farm in that draft. They've probably given up both 2024 2nd rounders, or a 2 and a 3, a mid pick, plus 2025s 1st rounder, plus whatever else.

That means the rest of the Giants 2024 rookie class might look like: either a 2nd rounder OR a 3rd rounder, a 4th OR a 5th, a 6 and a 7. So for the entire 2024 draft class, the Giants can't count on any immediate 2024 starters

They'll have to turn to FA to try and patch the glaring holes at OG (assuming it can be fixed), and pass rusher. They're gonna need a RB if Barkley leaves. If they trade up for QB, they can't draft the blue chip #1 WR. Maybe they land Mike Evans, but he's 30. You don't want to give 30 year-old WRs big contracts, but that's what it would take.

To me, the bottom line is the Giants are NOT in a good position to trade up for a QB. Of course if you hit on a Franchise QB, whatever you gave up, and all else is moot and forgiven. But getting that guy still requires good luck. More of these top QB prospects miss than hit. If they trade up and get it wrong, they're now super-fucked.

To me, THIS YEAR, they're in a better position to address some of the many GLARING holes (including a blue chip #1 WR) that will still exist if they traded up for a QB.


Whether Schoen and Daboll, swing for the fences, or take a more pragmatic approach, I have no idea. I'm sure they'll inquire about trading up, but I think it's much more likely they won't (or can't beat another team's offer). Then they'll fall back on the pragmatic approach.

this GM/HC conundrum should be entitled the Gettelman Quandary.

In an effort to appease the fan base and attempt to keep your job do you:

A.) reach on a QB to buy yourself some extra time to figure out a way to draft pieces around your inadequate QB to prop up his lack of talent as a QB

OR

B.) stick with a failing QB that has no future and invest heavily in FA signings doomed from the beginning in an effort to salvage your job, the QB and the franchise BUT in doing so dooming the next guy with loads of dead money and no talent.

In comment 16403635 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

Continuing to get talked about like it was an MVP season is embarrassing. If Sam Howell had that season last year and Washington paid him $160 million we’d all be laughing

You are full of shit. Who is saying it was a MVP season? I never said that. Nobody has ever said that.

I said it was a good season. Which it fucking was, you maniac.

In comment 16403662 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

In comment 16403635 ajr2456 said: Quote: Continuing to get talked about like it was an MVP season is embarrassing. If Sam Howell had that season last year and Washington paid him $160 million we’d all be laughing You are full of shit. Who is saying it was a MVP season? I never said that. Nobody has ever said that. I said it was a good season. Which it fucking was, you maniac.

Switch to decaf, kiddo.

In comment 16403662 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

In comment 16403635 ajr2456 said: Quote: Continuing to get talked about like it was an MVP season is embarrassing. If Sam Howell had that season last year and Washington paid him $160 million we’d all be laughing You are full of shit. Who is saying it was a MVP season? I never said that. Nobody has ever said that. I said it was a good season. Which it fucking was, you maniac.

You’re the one full of shit on here buddy.

It was mediocre. You repeatedly discuss it like it was some fantastic season. No QB gets paid off of a year like that.

Speaking on maniac, do you want to address your lies from the other day? Or are you just going to run away from them like every other time people point out you made shit up?

I'm not getting my shot at being a GM ruined by a QB I didn't draft or bring in Giants will draft a QB high and bring in a veteran for 2024. I expect a WR of he stays at 6 and trade back in to 1st for a QB they like.

In comment 16403546 Colin@gbn said:

Quote:

but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend.

"if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl." - gonna have to disagree rather vehemently there.

Also, you talk about getting Jones behind a decent line and weapons. What kind of timeline are we talking about here? The contract is not "wait and see what we have." He is due a $40.1 million cap hit or a restructure next offseason (guaranteeing more years), versus a simple $22 mil dead cap hit. The time for him to perform to earn that contract was yesterday. The time for the Giants to build a team around him was yesterday. They brought in Campbell, Waller, and Hyatt, plus several OL in the 2022 and 23 draft and FA. It sucks that many of them didn't work out, but that doesn't change the reality that the bill is coming due and the Giants don't really have time to do a team-building exercise to evaluate Jones.

In comment 16403546 Colin@gbn said:

Quote:

Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl.

44% of NFL teams make the playoffs every year.

Do you believe that 44% of the league is good enough to win the Super Bowl every year? Would you say that each of the 14 playoff teams have the same probability?

Do they teach math up there?

How can you argue about building around Jones, when the very concept is you know Jones is kind of limited, and keeping him at a high salary, is going to inhibit doing such "building around".

The Giants have a get out opportunity after 2024 and they should use it.

In comment 16403662 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

In comment 16403635 ajr2456 said: Quote: Continuing to get talked about like it was an MVP season is embarrassing. If Sam Howell had that season last year and Washington paid him $160 million we’d all be laughing You are full of shit. Who is saying it was a MVP season? I never said that. Nobody has ever said that. I said it was a good season. Which it fucking was, you maniac.

2022 has as much weight predicting the Giants future success as Mac McClung winning back to back Slam Dunk contests has in predicting him as a NBA superstar

In comment 16403528 Mayo2JZ said:

Quote:

In comment 16403234 UberAlias said: Quote: Desperation is what leads to gross overpay or reach. NYG are not in a good spot at QB. But you don't fix one thing by stacking further poor decisions on top. If NYG does something for the reasons provided in the OP, odds are it will look back at it as a regrettable decision and will be pointing back as an excuse why poor choices were made. This team is not one year or one player away. We need to make smart unemotional decisions. The frenzied fan base won't understand. But for me personally, I want out of this mess not appeasement. All due respect but what's your point? Go QB or BPA?

If there is a QB available even by trade who you have a conviction will be a franchise QB, then go get him. But the universe doesn't bow down to our desires. If there is not a legit franchise target to be had, we would be foolish to pass up on blue chip WR to reach for a QB. Many fans have an anybody but Jones mindset and are demanding for anyone different. They'd sign up for more of the same provided the name on the back of the jersey is something different. Not me. Hope is NOT good enough. We need out of this mess.

In comment 16403298 Carl in CT said:

Quote:

DJ is the answer. Fix the rest of the team.

Lol. Sure he is. Damn the DJFC is a delusional bunch.

every 2 years! Maybe every 3? There is no coach/GM combo that can take a team from 0 to hero in under 3 seasons without some luck or stellar roster inheritance. It takes time. I refuse to believe that fans bitching and whining about who the QB is will determine if Daboll and Schoen's pants are burning. It's going to come down to (or it should come down to) whether or not ownership believes in the plan that Schoen has in place and if Daboll is or is not the right fit.

You can't keep flipping coaches. It does no good for the team. And you don't build from the QB up. Draft a QB without getting the rest of the offense in order and you are drafting another failure.

Trey Lance, Trevor Lawrence, Justin Fields, David Carr, Baker Mayfield, etc... You see it all the time. These kids don't come into the league and just stink. They have no protection. They have a revolving door in the WR room, multiple coaches and systems. Get a solid line and cement your weapons and then go get he QB of your dreams so they can come in and be successful.

Or, you know, let's just repeat the same cycle over and over!

In comment 16403776 ZoneXDOA said:

Quote:

every 2 years! Maybe every 3? There is no coach/GM combo that can take a team from 0 to hero in under 3 seasons without some luck or stellar roster inheritance. It takes time. I refuse to believe that fans bitching and whining about who the QB is will determine if Daboll and Schoen's pants are burning. It's going to come down to (or it should come down to) whether or not ownership believes in the plan that Schoen has in place and if Daboll is or is not the right fit. You can't keep flipping coaches. It does no good for the team. And you don't build from the QB up. Draft a QB without getting the rest of the offense in order and you are drafting another failure. Trey Lance, Trevor Lawrence, Justin Fields, David Carr, Baker Mayfield, etc... You see it all the time. These kids don't come into the league and just stink. They have no protection. They have a revolving door in the WR room, multiple coaches and systems. Get a solid line and cement your weapons and then go get he QB of your dreams so they can come in and be successful. Or, you know, let's just repeat the same cycle over and over!

Yes, Trey Lance failed because of the awful surrounding cast in San Francisco.

Also, how did CJ Stroud do the Texans this year?

Baker Mayfield had the Browns a play away from the AFC title game is third year.

Trey Lance had a revolving door of WRs and no protection?

In comment 16403756 bwitz said:

Quote:

In comment 16403298 Carl in CT said: Quote: DJ is the answer. Fix the rest of the team. Lol. Sure he is. Damn the DJFC is a delusional bunch.

Their collective IQ barely reaches room temperature.

In comment 16403566 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 16403258 Manhattan said: Quote: In comment 16403240 The_Boss said: Quote: And take themselves out of Williams/Maye/Daniels? Someone has to be the team left standing out in the cold, and unfortunately that’s the NYG. Assume CHI and WAS draft Williams and Maye. There is a chance New England doesn't want Daniels and they either draft MHJ or trade back. That leaves an opening for the Giants to get Daniels or QB4. Why should anyone assume that? I know you think mock drafts are actual data, but they're not.

Not mock drafts. Draft prospect analysis. Williams is going #1. Daniels has a shot to go #2. But I think he has a reasonable shot to go #6.

In comment 16403784 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 16403756 bwitz said: Quote: In comment 16403298 Carl in CT said: Quote: DJ is the answer. Fix the rest of the team. Lol. Sure he is. Damn the DJFC is a delusional bunch. Their collective IQ barely reaches room temperature.

You almost can’t make this stuff up. The dude was putting up backup level numbers and a winning percentage that rivals the worst in the NFL, and that is BEFORE you factor in injury history.

Here’s a quick check if you believe Jones is any type of answer, look up Sam Darnolds overall numbers and winning percentage, compare it to Jones. If your answer is still that Jones is the answer, you are either disingenuous or delusional.

We have saying that originated from Buddy Ryan - Everybody in the league says it..

“If you listen to the fans, you'll be sitting up there with them”

In comment 16403845 Manhattan said:

Quote:

In comment 16403566 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 16403258 Manhattan said: Quote: In comment 16403240 The_Boss said: Quote: And take themselves out of Williams/Maye/Daniels? Someone has to be the team left standing out in the cold, and unfortunately that’s the NYG. Assume CHI and WAS draft Williams and Maye. There is a chance New England doesn't want Daniels and they either draft MHJ or trade back. That leaves an opening for the Giants to get Daniels or QB4. Why should anyone assume that? I know you think mock drafts are actual data, but they're not. Not mock drafts. Draft prospect analysis. Williams is going #1. Daniels has a shot to go #2. But I think he has a reasonable shot to go #6.

And #1 picks have busted. Each of the Top 5 QB's (everyone besides Pennix) represents a different flavor of QB and I would not be surprised to see widely different rankings from teams (some team's QB1 could be another's QB4 or vice versa).

In comment 16403873 lax counsel said:

Quote:

In comment 16403784 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 16403756 bwitz said: Quote: In comment 16403298 Carl in CT said: Quote: DJ is the answer. Fix the rest of the team. Lol. Sure he is. Damn the DJFC is a delusional bunch. Their collective IQ barely reaches room temperature. You almost can’t make this stuff up. The dude was putting up backup level numbers and a winning percentage that rivals the worst in the NFL, and that is BEFORE you factor in injury history. Here’s a quick check if you believe Jones is any type of answer, look up Sam Darnolds overall numbers and winning percentage, compare it to Jones. If your answer is still that Jones is the answer, you are either disingenuous or delusional.

The fact that they hold on to 2022 as some kind of awaking for Jones and mention it every time they can is such a pathetically weak argument it’s sad at this point. Jones’ 2022 was pedestrian, at best. Yet, they pull it out every time like he had a season that could compare to some of Mahomes, Rodgers or Allen’s best.

Fucking delusional.

Caleb Williams makes throws that no QB should be able to make, has the strongest arm in the class, and can make plays off structure with his athleticism. However, it is concerning that he was not putting away teams, had his worst games against higher level opponents, and was making many of the same errors at the end of the year as he was at the beginning.

Drake Maye has all of the measurables, something I can’t say about any of the other QB’s in this group, but the production wasn’t always there. Is this a situation where he just needs better coaching (Mack Brown doesn’t have a history of developing NFL QB’s) or have people found flaws they can exploit.

Jayden Daniels posted insane numbers against high quality defenses and showed he can really operate at all levels of the field. Off script ability probably second to Williams IMHO. The size is an issue along with having 2 1st round caliber WR’s.

JJ McCarthy has the most untapped potential and you see games like Alabama where he put team on his shoulders and won against elite competition. Ran as close to a pro style scheme as you will see among this crop. Definitely can question whether the scheme was by design or was Harbaugh working within limitations of McCarthy.

Bo Nix had insane production at Oregon and is the most pro ready, but questionable scheme diversity. Is he limited to a scheme centered around quick passing game to guys in space versus being able to attack vertical? If the Safeties can cheat down that also limits what you can do offensively.

As I said, there are reasons why a team may love or hate a particular QB option.

Interesting post, Mike. It sounds somewhat analogous to the 2018 draft, where we got Mayfield, Darnold, Allen, Rosen, and Jackson in the first. 2 studs in Jackson and Allen, 1 starter quality player in Mayfield, 1 backup, 1 massive bust.

In comment 16403915 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

Interesting post, Mike. It sounds somewhat analogous to the 2018 draft, where we got Mayfield, Darnold, Allen, Rosen, and Jackson in the first. 2 studs in Jackson and Allen, 1 starter quality player in Mayfield, 1 backup, 1 massive bust.

I don’t see a Josh Rosen level bust in this crop barring injury. That being said, there are also no QB’s that make me feel like even if they don’t reach their potential you will say at least they were solid for where they were picked (based on current mock drafts - if one does a Will Levis that is different).

Basically I think they all have the potential to end up in the Darnold to Mayfield group which might be solid for where they end up being picked, but not franchise changing.

In comment 16403911 Mike in NY said:

Quote:

Bo Nix had insane production at Oregon and is the most pro ready, but questionable scheme diversity.

How do you know Nix is the most pro ready? Based on what?

In comment 16403911 Mike in NY said:

Quote:

Caleb Williams makes throws that no QB should be able to make, has the strongest arm in the class, and can make plays off structure with his athleticism. However, it is concerning that he was not putting away teams, had his worst games against higher level opponents, and was making many of the same errors at the end of the year as he was at the beginning. Drake Maye has all of the measurables, something I can’t say about any of the other QB’s in this group, but the production wasn’t always there. Is this a situation where he just needs better coaching (Mack Brown doesn’t have a history of developing NFL QB’s) or have people found flaws they can exploit. Jayden Daniels posted insane numbers against high quality defenses and showed he can really operate at all levels of the field. Off script ability probably second to Williams IMHO. The size is an issue along with having 2 1st round caliber WR’s. JJ McCarthy has the most untapped potential and you see games like Alabama where he put team on his shoulders and won against elite competition. Ran as close to a pro style scheme as you will see among this crop. Definitely can question whether the scheme was by design or was Harbaugh working within limitations of McCarthy. Bo Nix had insane production at Oregon and is the most pro ready, but questionable scheme diversity. Is he limited to a scheme centered around quick passing game to guys in space versus being able to attack vertical? If the Safeties can cheat down that also limits what you can do offensively. As I said, there are reasons why a team may love or hate a particular QB option.

Nice job with this post. So, so, so many things to think about when evaluating and ranking these guys.

Quite frankly, the only comforting thing is that we could go wrong with any one of these prospected and STILL BE BETTER OFF than we are now.

not prospected

In comment 16403922 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 16403911 Mike in NY said: Quote: Bo Nix had insane production at Oregon and is the most pro ready, but questionable scheme diversity. How do you know Nix is the most pro ready? Based on what?

Watching Oregon play, in the right scheme involving short, quick passing game to guys in space I think Nix can play from Day 1 and not lose games he should win. Having watched the others play I think most will be asked to play Week 1, but it is not ideal. As far as pro ready I think Daniels is a close #2, but the size is concerning. McCarthy is the same height, but it looks like he has the frame to be larger. Daniels is more maxed out in that regard. Williams, for all of the hype, I have questions about the football IQ and the repeated errors. In an ideal world you have a vet working with him all offseason and maybe early in regular season about what it takes to be an NFL QB.

In comment 16403923 ThomasG said:

Quote:

In comment 16403911 Mike in NY said: Quote: Caleb Williams makes throws that no QB should be able to make, has the strongest arm in the class, and can make plays off structure with his athleticism. However, it is concerning that he was not putting away teams, had his worst games against higher level opponents, and was making many of the same errors at the end of the year as he was at the beginning. Drake Maye has all of the measurables, something I can’t say about any of the other QB’s in this group, but the production wasn’t always there. Is this a situation where he just needs better coaching (Mack Brown doesn’t have a history of developing NFL QB’s) or have people found flaws they can exploit. Jayden Daniels posted insane numbers against high quality defenses and showed he can really operate at all levels of the field. Off script ability probably second to Williams IMHO. The size is an issue along with having 2 1st round caliber WR’s. JJ McCarthy has the most untapped potential and you see games like Alabama where he put team on his shoulders and won against elite competition. Ran as close to a pro style scheme as you will see among this crop. Definitely can question whether the scheme was by design or was Harbaugh working within limitations of McCarthy. Bo Nix had insane production at Oregon and is the most pro ready, but questionable scheme diversity. Is he limited to a scheme centered around quick passing game to guys in space versus being able to attack vertical? If the Safeties can cheat down that also limits what you can do offensively. As I said, there are reasons why a team may love or hate a particular QB option. Nice job with this post. So, so, so many things to think about when evaluating and ranking these guys. Quite frankly, the only comforting thing is that we could go wrong with any one of these prospected and STILL BE BETTER OFF than we are now.

I will say the Top 4 long term yes we would still be better off than Daniel Jones. That being said, I think McCarthy will need to sit a year behind a vet if you want to maximize his potential.

I just listened to Dunleavy say how it was the OL without Andrew Thomas that was the problem for Jones

I just listened to Tiki go through how the career stats prove Jones is much better with Saquon

Sooooo

How much can be “built “ around a guy who has a top LT and top RB in football and has gotten at its absolute best just 9 wins out of this?

Money is a factor. Jones 40+, Thomas 20+, Barkley 10+

And without them we went 1-5 and he had 2 TDs?

There are so many draft picks you can hit on, only so many FAs you can afford with a cap

I wonder if the guy who asked "If your answer is still that Jones is the answer, you are either disingenuous or delusional" is going to include the Giants organization because that's clearly what they have decided.

Which brings me to something I have been wondering about. What the heck is the goal of all the folks screaming that Jones has to go and anyone who disagrees is delusional. Jones isn't going anywhere; the professional football people in the Giants organization have decided he is their best option at least in the short term. The choice has for all intents and purposes already been made. Do think that if they yell it loud enough and often enough that Mara or schoen will hear them and have a change of heart. Don't think so! So what's the point other than to hear themselves howl at the moon.

Talk about who's delusional!

In comment 16403930 Mike in NY said:

Quote:

Bo Nix had insane production at Oregon and is the most pro ready, but questionable Watching Oregon play, in the right scheme involving short, quick passing game to guys in space I think Nix can play from Day 1 and not lose games he should win. Having watched the others play I think most will be asked to play Week 1, but it is not ideal. As far as pro ready I think Daniels is a close #2, but the size is concerning. McCarthy is the same height, but it looks like he has the frame to be larger. Daniels is more maxed out in that regard. Williams, for all of the hype, I have questions about the football IQ and the repeated errors. In an ideal world you have a vet working with him all offseason and maybe early in regular season about what it takes to be an NFL QB.

I still don't know how you know that. I think something like being "pro ready" is impossible to project. The NFL is so much more advanced than the college game on the defensive side of the ball, both in talent and scheme/strategy. As far as I'm concerned, until a new QB is in a real game, we're simply guessing.

In comment 16403388 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Drafting Malik Willis in round 1 of the 2022 draft would have been preferable to what actually took place. The QB depth chart entering 2022 would have been Jones/Willis/Taylor in any order, we wouldn't have given Jones that catastrophic contract, and we'd be right where we are right now except without the Jones albatross hanging over 2024. You can bring up Malik Willis until the cows come home, but the worst case scenario after picking him is still better than where we are right now.

Keep beating that dead horse. He was overdrafted the following draft or did you miss that?

Willis was and is fools gold that some of you jumped after.

Mara needs to let everyone know and FO needs to make decisions based on it
Trade back add depth see what Neal/DJ have.
If they stink again move on.
Meanwhile patch gaping holes elsewhere

In comment 16403157 ThomasG said:

Quote:

.

Or the next 14 months...

In comment 16403191 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 16403185 4xchamps said: Quote: Free agents don't want to come to the Giants is an idiot. Free agents go where the money and playing time is. Just look at the sorry Washington franchise. They continually signed bi name free agents under Snyder. If the money is similar, they will go elsewhere unless they think there is some stability. So I must be an idiot.

+1 that's how we get Nate Solder, Gollayay, etc.

In comment 16403580 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

Sure, Jones could win a Super Bowl, as a backup.

Coach maybe?

In comment 16403946 Snorkels said:

Quote:

I wonder if the guy who asked "If your answer is still that Jones is the answer, you are either disingenuous or delusional" is going to include the Giants organization because that's clearly what they have decided. Which brings me to something I have been wondering about. What the heck is the goal of all the folks screaming that Jones has to go and anyone who disagrees is delusional. Jones isn't going anywhere; the professional football people in the Giants organization have decided he is their best option at least in the short term. The choice has for all intents and purposes already been made. Do think that if they yell it loud enough and often enough that Mara or schoen will hear them and have a change of heart. Don't think so! So what's the point other than to hear themselves howl at the moon. Talk about who's delusional!

Have you run the side by side with Sam Darnold yet? Do you believe Sam Darnold is an NFL starting caliber qb? Do you believe the Giants organization, posting one of the worst records in the NFL over the last decade, deserves the benefit of the doubt on any decision?

I’ll await your answers.

In comment 16403998 lax counsel said:

Quote:

Have you run the side by side with Sam Darnold yet? Do you believe Sam Darnold is an NFL starting caliber qb? Do you believe the Giants organization, posting one of the worst records in the NFL over the last decade, deserves the benefit of the doubt on any decision? I’ll await your answers.

What has Sam Darnold got to with anything? Doesn't matter whether I trust the organization or you don't. There the only organization we have right now and I trust guys like Schoen and Daboll who appear to be smart, yung football guys who seem to have a plan one whoel hell of a lot more than a howling mob whose collective football expertise and experience one could fit on the head of a pin.

No way they start over again...

In comment 16404017 Snorkels said:

Quote:

In comment 16403998 lax counsel said: Quote: Have you run the side by side with Sam Darnold yet? Do you believe Sam Darnold is an NFL starting caliber qb? Do you believe the Giants organization, posting one of the worst records in the NFL over the last decade, deserves the benefit of the doubt on any decision? I’ll await your answers. What has Sam Darnold got to with anything? Doesn't matter whether I trust the organization or you don't. There the only organization we have right now and I trust guys like Schoen and Daboll who appear to be smart, yung football guys who seem to have a plan one whoel hell of a lot more than a howling mob whose collective football expertise and experience one could fit on the head of a pin.

Cool, do you think Sam Darnold is an NFL starting qb?

In comment 16403546 Colin@gbn said:

Quote:

Eric, my friend, I am sorry you feel that way. I've been at this going on 70 years and I am more than just a little excited about the direction the Giants are headed in. At the same time, I can understand people's frustration (as I have said jokingly to others privately its been what 18 games since the Giants won a playoff game!) But I also understand its a process. No question the Giants really did bottom out between 2017 and 2021 when they posted a really dismal 22-59 W-L record over those 5 campaigns. And given that record as a starting point, its more than a tad unreasonable to expect the Giants to be competing for a title barely two years into the actual rebuild. We also remind people that it took the Giants a full 8 seasons to win their first Super Bowl after George Young took over the team at the end of the 1978 season as the team emerged from the dreaded '70s. Indeed, in Young's first 5 seasons, the Giants record was an almost equally dismal 26-46-1, including a 3-12-1 catastrophe in 1983 the year before they finally got truly competitive. And I don't believe for a moment the Giants are a 6-win team going forward. Three of their losses this year came in games decided on the last play of the contest and in all three the odds heavily favored the Giants making the play. Bottom line is that the Giants right now are pretty much a .500 football that won some close ones in 2022 and lost them this past fall. We also fully expect the Giants to come into training camp next fall with a burr under their collective saddle and bounce back to at least the 9-10 win range and compete for a playoff spot in the somewhat diluted NFC next fall. We suggest all that, not because we tend to be eternal optimists when it comes to sports - which we confess we are - but because we see the Giants ever so steadily building up a solid core of good young players. Needless to say, of course, they still need more. Re the QB situation: I'm going to be real honest here. Fact is I just don't understand where the tidal wave of 'Daniel Jones must go' has come from. And a little context here. I spent the better part of the past decade trying to refute all the people literally screaming at me from literally every angle that the Giants just had to fix the offensive line: that the lack of a decent OL ruined the back half of Eli's career; and that no QB could possibly prosper with the Giants' OL. I don't want to rehash all the data (such as the fact that Eli actually had the best 3-year run of his career between 2014-2016) that showed until recently that just wasn't the case. So imagine my incredulity when in a season in which the OL was truly historically bad, all those same people all of a sudden started screaming 'we need a new QB!' with barely a peep about the OL which for a long time this fall was on pace to give up over 100 sacks. Can the Giants do better at QB? Of course, but so can probably more than half the teams in the league. Can they make the playoffs with Jones? What, was no one paying attention in 2022 when Jones led a team that really didn't have much star power to ten wins including a road-win over the #2 seed. Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend. In fact, the Giants have told us that Jones will be the starter in 2024 once he's healthy and if they have any concerns at the position its having some insurance if Jones is limited at any time this fall. And re-listening to GM Joe Schoen's season-ending presser it seemed pretty clear that their main goal at QB this off-season will be to find someone - most likely a veteran free agent - capable of stepping in and winning games if Jones can't play. Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility of also addressing the position at the 2024 draft, especially given they have the 6th pick overall this coming April, especially because I suspect it may be the last time the Giants pick this early in a while. Ultimately what it comes down to for Schoen and company (who are not drafting to save their jobs) but to try and win a championship, are your odds better by trying a new QB (who lets be honest here will have a pretty small chance of being an elite franchise guy) or do you build up the rest of the team around Jones which lets be honest has never ever been very good. Time will tell!

But the anonymous source said!


Thank you for sanity and for expressing your point in a way that feels fair rather than derogatory

In comment 16404211 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 16403546 Colin@gbn said: Quote: Eric, my friend, I am sorry you feel that way. I've been at this going on 70 years and I am more than just a little excited about the direction the Giants are headed in. At the same time, I can understand people's frustration (as I have said jokingly to others privately its been what 18 games since the Giants won a playoff game!) But I also understand its a process. No question the Giants really did bottom out between 2017 and 2021 when they posted a really dismal 22-59 W-L record over those 5 campaigns. And given that record as a starting point, its more than a tad unreasonable to expect the Giants to be competing for a title barely two years into the actual rebuild. We also remind people that it took the Giants a full 8 seasons to win their first Super Bowl after George Young took over the team at the end of the 1978 season as the team emerged from the dreaded '70s. Indeed, in Young's first 5 seasons, the Giants record was an almost equally dismal 26-46-1, including a 3-12-1 catastrophe in 1983 the year before they finally got truly competitive. And I don't believe for a moment the Giants are a 6-win team going forward. Three of their losses this year came in games decided on the last play of the contest and in all three the odds heavily favored the Giants making the play. Bottom line is that the Giants right now are pretty much a .500 football that won some close ones in 2022 and lost them this past fall. We also fully expect the Giants to come into training camp next fall with a burr under their collective saddle and bounce back to at least the 9-10 win range and compete for a playoff spot in the somewhat diluted NFC next fall. We suggest all that, not because we tend to be eternal optimists when it comes to sports - which we confess we are - but because we see the Giants ever so steadily building up a solid core of good young players. Needless to say, of course, they still need more. Re the QB situation: I'm going to be real honest here. Fact is I just don't understand where the tidal wave of 'Daniel Jones must go' has come from. And a little context here. I spent the better part of the past decade trying to refute all the people literally screaming at me from literally every angle that the Giants just had to fix the offensive line: that the lack of a decent OL ruined the back half of Eli's career; and that no QB could possibly prosper with the Giants' OL. I don't want to rehash all the data (such as the fact that Eli actually had the best 3-year run of his career between 2014-2016) that showed until recently that just wasn't the case. So imagine my incredulity when in a season in which the OL was truly historically bad, all those same people all of a sudden started screaming 'we need a new QB!' with barely a peep about the OL which for a long time this fall was on pace to give up over 100 sacks. Can the Giants do better at QB? Of course, but so can probably more than half the teams in the league. Can they make the playoffs with Jones? What, was no one paying attention in 2022 when Jones led a team that really didn't have much star power to ten wins including a road-win over the #2 seed. Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend. In fact, the Giants have told us that Jones will be the starter in 2024 once he's healthy and if they have any concerns at the position its having some insurance if Jones is limited at any time this fall. And re-listening to GM Joe Schoen's season-ending presser it seemed pretty clear that their main goal at QB this off-season will be to find someone - most likely a veteran free agent - capable of stepping in and winning games if Jones can't play. Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility of also addressing the position at the 2024 draft, especially given they have the 6th pick overall this coming April, especially because I suspect it may be the last time the Giants pick this early in a while. Ultimately what it comes down to for Schoen and company (who are not drafting to save their jobs) but to try and win a championship, are your odds better by trying a new QB (who lets be honest here will have a pretty small chance of being an elite franchise guy) or do you build up the rest of the team around Jones which lets be honest has never ever been very good. Time will tell! But the anonymous source said! Thank you for sanity and for expressing your point in a way that feels fair rather than derogatory

Do you agree with this particular line?

Quote:

Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl.

Given that 14 teams make the playoffs each year, would you agree that 44% of the league has a legitimate chance to win the Super Bowl in any given year? Would you claim that each of the 14 playoff teams have the same probability of winning the Super Bowl?

Because that to me felt like a completely empty statement, based on nothing factual, likely to be wrong, and it also forms the foundation of Colin's entire point, IMO.

Parity is not a strategy.

you are probably good enough to win the Super Bowl." That sounds like something Gettleman would say.

In comment 16404239 Sean said:

Quote:

you are probably good enough to win the Super Bowl." That sounds like something Gettleman would say.

That is one of the most laughable lines I've ever read at BBI.

Indeed, it does sound like something we would hear from Gettleman. And it doesn't take much imagination to believe all of the family members at 1925 Giants Way would say the same damn thing.

I believe that playoff win over Minnesota may still be the reason why Schoen passes on taking a QB in this draft on day one or two.

Until proven otherwise, this is still on the back of Schoen's SUV...

In comment 16404239 Sean said:

Quote:

you are probably good enough to win the Super Bowl." That sounds like something Gettleman would say.

It's essentially the Giants organizational mission statement.

A statement like that suggests people who watched the playoff win over the Vikings and forgot everything that happened after that.

The 2022 Giants were never good enough to win the Super Bowl, and the evidence of that is that they didn't even belong on the same field as the Eagles in the playoffs.

Every year you can pretty much rule out 2-3 teams in each conference playoff field.

In comment 16404211 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 16403546 Colin@gbn said: Quote: Eric, my friend, I am sorry you feel that way. I've been at this going on 70 years and I am more than just a little excited about the direction the Giants are headed in. At the same time, I can understand people's frustration (as I have said jokingly to others privately its been what 18 games since the Giants won a playoff game!) But I also understand its a process. No question the Giants really did bottom out between 2017 and 2021 when they posted a really dismal 22-59 W-L record over those 5 campaigns. And given that record as a starting point, its more than a tad unreasonable to expect the Giants to be competing for a title barely two years into the actual rebuild. We also remind people that it took the Giants a full 8 seasons to win their first Super Bowl after George Young took over the team at the end of the 1978 season as the team emerged from the dreaded '70s. Indeed, in Young's first 5 seasons, the Giants record was an almost equally dismal 26-46-1, including a 3-12-1 catastrophe in 1983 the year before they finally got truly competitive. And I don't believe for a moment the Giants are a 6-win team going forward. Three of their losses this year came in games decided on the last play of the contest and in all three the odds heavily favored the Giants making the play. Bottom line is that the Giants right now are pretty much a .500 football that won some close ones in 2022 and lost them this past fall. We also fully expect the Giants to come into training camp next fall with a burr under their collective saddle and bounce back to at least the 9-10 win range and compete for a playoff spot in the somewhat diluted NFC next fall. We suggest all that, not because we tend to be eternal optimists when it comes to sports - which we confess we are - but because we see the Giants ever so steadily building up a solid core of good young players. Needless to say, of course, they still need more. Re the QB situation: I'm going to be real honest here. Fact is I just don't understand where the tidal wave of 'Daniel Jones must go' has come from. And a little context here. I spent the better part of the past decade trying to refute all the people literally screaming at me from literally every angle that the Giants just had to fix the offensive line: that the lack of a decent OL ruined the back half of Eli's career; and that no QB could possibly prosper with the Giants' OL. I don't want to rehash all the data (such as the fact that Eli actually had the best 3-year run of his career between 2014-2016) that showed until recently that just wasn't the case. So imagine my incredulity when in a season in which the OL was truly historically bad, all those same people all of a sudden started screaming 'we need a new QB!' with barely a peep about the OL which for a long time this fall was on pace to give up over 100 sacks. Can the Giants do better at QB? Of course, but so can probably more than half the teams in the league. Can they make the playoffs with Jones? What, was no one paying attention in 2022 when Jones led a team that really didn't have much star power to ten wins including a road-win over the #2 seed. Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend. In fact, the Giants have told us that Jones will be the starter in 2024 once he's healthy and if they have any concerns at the position its having some insurance if Jones is limited at any time this fall. And re-listening to GM Joe Schoen's season-ending presser it seemed pretty clear that their main goal at QB this off-season will be to find someone - most likely a veteran free agent - capable of stepping in and winning games if Jones can't play. Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility of also addressing the position at the 2024 draft, especially given they have the 6th pick overall this coming April, especially because I suspect it may be the last time the Giants pick this early in a while. Ultimately what it comes down to for Schoen and company (who are not drafting to save their jobs) but to try and win a championship, are your odds better by trying a new QB (who lets be honest here will have a pretty small chance of being an elite franchise guy) or do you build up the rest of the team around Jones which lets be honest has never ever been very good. Time will tell! But the anonymous source said! Thank you for sanity and for expressing your point in a way that feels fair rather than derogatory

The problem with the last line of the statement should be evident. Building up a team around Jones is much more difficult than it would have been in years 1-5, simply because Jones now accounts for a much larger portion of the salary cap. Jones is an NFL backup qb making top half of the league qb money. This prohibits both signing of new talent and retaining what talent the Giants have at league competitive contracts. Effectively, the team would need to hit on every draft pick this year and next, which is a statistical improbability.

In comment 16403546 Colin@gbn said:

Quote:

Eric, my friend, I am sorry you feel that way. I've been at this going on 70 years and I am more than just a little excited about the direction the Giants are headed in. At the same time, I can understand people's frustration (as I have said jokingly to others privately its been what 18 games since the Giants won a playoff game!) But I also understand its a process. No question the Giants really did bottom out between 2017 and 2021 when they posted a really dismal 22-59 W-L record over those 5 campaigns. And given that record as a starting point, its more than a tad unreasonable to expect the Giants to be competing for a title barely two years into the actual rebuild. We also remind people that it took the Giants a full 8 seasons to win their first Super Bowl after George Young took over the team at the end of the 1978 season as the team emerged from the dreaded '70s. Indeed, in Young's first 5 seasons, the Giants record was an almost equally dismal 26-46-1, including a 3-12-1 catastrophe in 1983 the year before they finally got truly competitive. And I don't believe for a moment the Giants are a 6-win team going forward. Three of their losses this year came in games decided on the last play of the contest and in all three the odds heavily favored the Giants making the play. Bottom line is that the Giants right now are pretty much a .500 football that won some close ones in 2022 and lost them this past fall. We also fully expect the Giants to come into training camp next fall with a burr under their collective saddle and bounce back to at least the 9-10 win range and compete for a playoff spot in the somewhat diluted NFC next fall. We suggest all that, not because we tend to be eternal optimists when it comes to sports - which we confess we are - but because we see the Giants ever so steadily building up a solid core of good young players. Needless to say, of course, they still need more. Re the QB situation: I'm going to be real honest here. Fact is I just don't understand where the tidal wave of 'Daniel Jones must go' has come from. And a little context here. I spent the better part of the past decade trying to refute all the people literally screaming at me from literally every angle that the Giants just had to fix the offensive line: that the lack of a decent OL ruined the back half of Eli's career; and that no QB could possibly prosper with the Giants' OL. I don't want to rehash all the data (such as the fact that Eli actually had the best 3-year run of his career between 2014-2016) that showed until recently that just wasn't the case. So imagine my incredulity when in a season in which the OL was truly historically bad, all those same people all of a sudden started screaming 'we need a new QB!' with barely a peep about the OL which for a long time this fall was on pace to give up over 100 sacks. Can the Giants do better at QB? Of course, but so can probably more than half the teams in the league. Can they make the playoffs with Jones? What, was no one paying attention in 2022 when Jones led a team that really didn't have much star power to ten wins including a road-win over the #2 seed. Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend. In fact, the Giants have told us that Jones will be the starter in 2024 once he's healthy and if they have any concerns at the position its having some insurance if Jones is limited at any time this fall. And re-listening to GM Joe Schoen's season-ending presser it seemed pretty clear that their main goal at QB this off-season will be to find someone - most likely a veteran free agent - capable of stepping in and winning games if Jones can't play. Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility of also addressing the position at the 2024 draft, especially given they have the 6th pick overall this coming April, especially because I suspect it may be the last time the Giants pick this early in a while. Ultimately what it comes down to for Schoen and company (who are not drafting to save their jobs) but to try and win a championship, are your odds better by trying a new QB (who lets be honest here will have a pretty small chance of being an elite franchise guy) or do you build up the rest of the team around Jones which lets be honest has never ever been very good. Time will tell!

Hello Colin - Just like lst year I disagreed with you - this year the same other than possible direction of team in the future but my view is that they have a legit shot to get a QB. This stuff some would mention about trading up to 1 etc was all nuts. But there are 4/5/6 potential good QB's potential-wise. That's where I am excited.

As far as this year -- I disagree with nearly everything you say. Everything you say - I'm of the opposite view in terms of expectations this upcoming year. I'm hoping you are right. But IMO you will make this same post next year - and next year this post maybe be much more applicable. Name some points you wish to discuss why the team will be so much better - I'm sure 90% me or someone else will have a counter. And not things like :The OL can't be any worse so by default that makes the Giants better . . ."

Assume for a moment that Giants team was good enough to wins Super Bowl, which on its face is silly.

Here are the starters from the Minnesota game, with the players currently under contract for 2024 not struck through.

14 months and two off seasons removed from a game is an eternity.

Daniel Jones
Saquon Barkley
Isaiah Hodgins
Darius Slayton
Richie James
Daniel Bellinger
Nick Gates
Andrew Thomas
Evan Neal
Mark Glowinski
Jon Feliciano


Leonard Williams
Dexter Lawrence
Azeez Ojulari
Kayvon Thibodeaux
Jaylon Smith
Jarrad Davis
Adoree' Jackson
Darnay Holmes
Julian Love
Xavier McKinney
Fabian Moreau

In comment 16404312 giantstock said:

Quote:

As far as this year -- I disagree with nearly everything you say. Everything you say - I'm of the opposite view in terms of expectations this upcoming year. I'm hoping you are right. But IMO you will make this same post next year - and next year this post maybe be much more applicable. Name some points you wish to discuss why the team will be so much better - I'm sure 90% me or someone else will have a counter. And not things like :The OL can't be any worse so by default that makes the Giants better . . ."

In comment 16404328 ThomasG said:

Quote:

In comment 16404312 giantstock said: Quote: As far as this year -- I disagree with nearly everything you say. Everything you say - I'm of the opposite view in terms of expectations this upcoming year. I'm hoping you are right. But IMO you will make this same post next year - and next year this post maybe be much more applicable. Name some points you wish to discuss why the team will be so much better - I'm sure 90% me or someone else will have a counter. And not things like :The OL can't be any worse so by default that makes the Giants better . . ."

I hope so!!!!!!!!!!!!

In comment 16404230 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 16404211 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: In comment 16403546 Colin@gbn said: Quote: Eric, my friend, I am sorry you feel that way. I've been at this going on 70 years and I am more than just a little excited about the direction the Giants are headed in. At the same time, I can understand people's frustration (as I have said jokingly to others privately its been what 18 games since the Giants won a playoff game!) But I also understand its a process. No question the Giants really did bottom out between 2017 and 2021 when they posted a really dismal 22-59 W-L record over those 5 campaigns. And given that record as a starting point, its more than a tad unreasonable to expect the Giants to be competing for a title barely two years into the actual rebuild. We also remind people that it took the Giants a full 8 seasons to win their first Super Bowl after George Young took over the team at the end of the 1978 season as the team emerged from the dreaded '70s. Indeed, in Young's first 5 seasons, the Giants record was an almost equally dismal 26-46-1, including a 3-12-1 catastrophe in 1983 the year before they finally got truly competitive. And I don't believe for a moment the Giants are a 6-win team going forward. Three of their losses this year came in games decided on the last play of the contest and in all three the odds heavily favored the Giants making the play. Bottom line is that the Giants right now are pretty much a .500 football that won some close ones in 2022 and lost them this past fall. We also fully expect the Giants to come into training camp next fall with a burr under their collective saddle and bounce back to at least the 9-10 win range and compete for a playoff spot in the somewhat diluted NFC next fall. We suggest all that, not because we tend to be eternal optimists when it comes to sports - which we confess we are - but because we see the Giants ever so steadily building up a solid core of good young players. Needless to say, of course, they still need more. Re the QB situation: I'm going to be real honest here. Fact is I just don't understand where the tidal wave of 'Daniel Jones must go' has come from. And a little context here. I spent the better part of the past decade trying to refute all the people literally screaming at me from literally every angle that the Giants just had to fix the offensive line: that the lack of a decent OL ruined the back half of Eli's career; and that no QB could possibly prosper with the Giants' OL. I don't want to rehash all the data (such as the fact that Eli actually had the best 3-year run of his career between 2014-2016) that showed until recently that just wasn't the case. So imagine my incredulity when in a season in which the OL was truly historically bad, all those same people all of a sudden started screaming 'we need a new QB!' with barely a peep about the OL which for a long time this fall was on pace to give up over 100 sacks. Can the Giants do better at QB? Of course, but so can probably more than half the teams in the league. Can they make the playoffs with Jones? What, was no one paying attention in 2022 when Jones led a team that really didn't have much star power to ten wins including a road-win over the #2 seed. Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend. In fact, the Giants have told us that Jones will be the starter in 2024 once he's healthy and if they have any concerns at the position its having some insurance if Jones is limited at any time this fall. And re-listening to GM Joe Schoen's season-ending presser it seemed pretty clear that their main goal at QB this off-season will be to find someone - most likely a veteran free agent - capable of stepping in and winning games if Jones can't play. Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility of also addressing the position at the 2024 draft, especially given they have the 6th pick overall this coming April, especially because I suspect it may be the last time the Giants pick this early in a while. Ultimately what it comes down to for Schoen and company (who are not drafting to save their jobs) but to try and win a championship, are your odds better by trying a new QB (who lets be honest here will have a pretty small chance of being an elite franchise guy) or do you build up the rest of the team around Jones which lets be honest has never ever been very good. Time will tell! But the anonymous source said! Thank you for sanity and for expressing your point in a way that feels fair rather than derogatory Do you agree with this particular line? Quote: Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. Given that 14 teams make the playoffs each year, would you agree that 44% of the league has a legitimate chance to win the Super Bowl in any given year? Would you claim that each of the 14 playoff teams have the same probability of winning the Super Bowl? Because that to me felt like a completely empty statement, based on nothing factual, likely to be wrong, and it also forms the foundation of Colin's entire point, IMO. Parity is not a strategy.

Yes, If Jones were healthy on a talented team I think he could win a SB for the reasons Colin states. I have made the same argument here and was met with the same vitriol as Colin. That said I believe we should draft a QB high. I would list Jones injury history from Duke until now as evidence. I don’t think Colin is dumb for not agreeing with my draft a qb early take though. Valid

In comment 16403617 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 16403603 giantstock said: Quote: In comment 16403581 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 16403564 giantstock said: Quote: 2--- This stuff abouut Giants need to appease the fans is laughable. I guess you weren't a fan in 2017 or the half decade that followed? If he did it all the time then you would be referncing more than just two, right? ANd because he was stupid in those circumstances doesn't mean it should be a need by the GM's. There were laughable decisons before and to feel a need to be dumb again is further laughable when you can get a QB at 6 or 5 - without trading 1st 3 rd picks. No one said "all the time." I guess if you change the terms of the argument, you can make your case against that made up version instead, sure.

SO the pooint of yoru post was to give me one example that I wasnt following in 1 year which made my post wrong in some manner? One exaample over how many years?

I get it that we dislike each other. But you don't need to invent things just because you want to pick a fight with me. Just move on.

This team got absolutely TORCHED to open the year

40-0
30-12
24-3
31-16

The lone win was a miracle comeback vs the 4th worst team in NFL that didn’t have Kyler Murray after getting shutout for a half

1-4 your season is over every single year

This team beat the Cards, Pats, Washington twice, a DOA Eagles team in last week of season and the Pack.

4 wins vs the bottom 4 teams in NFL. The only win worth its salt was against the Packers

Yeah its great the Giants didn’t go into the tank to end the year but lets not fool ourselves thinking we are onto something here

In comment 16403546 Colin@gbn said:

Quote:

But I also understand its a process. No question the Giants really did bottom out between 2017 and 2021 when they posted a really dismal 22-59 W-L record over those 5 campaigns. And given that record as a starting point, its more than a tad unreasonable to expect the Giants to be competing for a title barely two years into the actual rebuild. We also remind people that it took the Giants a full 8 seasons to win their first Super Bowl after George Young took over the team at the end of the 1978 season as the team emerged from the dreaded '70s. Indeed, in Young's first 5 seasons, the Giants record was an almost equally dismal 26-46-1, including a 3-12-1 catastrophe in 1983 the year before they finally got truly competitive. And I don't believe for a moment the Giants are a 6-win team going forward. Three of their losses this year came in games decided on the last play of the contest and in all three the odds heavily favored the Giants making the play. Bottom line is that the Giants right now are pretty much a .500 football that won some close ones in 2022 and lost them this past fall. We also fully expect the Giants to come into training camp next fall with a burr under their collective saddle and bounce back to at least the 9-10 win range and compete for a playoff spot in the somewhat diluted NFC next fall. We suggest all that, not because we tend to be eternal optimists when it comes to sports - which we confess we are - but because we see the Giants ever so steadily building up a solid core of good young players. Needless to say, of course, they still need more. Re the QB situation: I'm going to be real honest here. Fact is I just don't understand where the tidal wave of 'Daniel Jones must go' has come from. And a little context here. I spent the better part of the past decade trying to refute all the people literally screaming at me from literally every angle that the Giants just had to fix the offensive line: that the lack of a decent OL ruined the back half of Eli's career; and that no QB could possibly prosper with the Giants' OL. I don't want to rehash all the data (such as the fact that Eli actually had the best 3-year run of his career between 2014-2016) that showed until recently that just wasn't the case. So imagine my incredulity when in a season in which the OL was truly historically bad, all those same people all of a sudden started screaming 'we need a new QB!' with barely a peep about the OL which for a long time this fall was on pace to give up over 100 sacks. Can the Giants do better at QB? Of course, but so can probably more than half the teams in the league. Can they make the playoffs with Jones? What, was no one paying attention in 2022 when Jones led a team that really didn't have much star power to ten wins including a road-win over the #2 seed. Can they win a Super Bowl with Jones? Who knows, but if you're good enough to make playoffs, you're probably good enough to win a Super Bowl. At the same time, there certainly is a legitimate question whether Jones is good enough to get you to 11-12-13 wins every year, but what I suspect the Giants believe is that put Jones behind a decent offensive line with some weapons that with his combination of arm talent and athleticism, especially in a backfield with a dynamic player like Saquon, the offence has the potential to be very difficult to defend. In fact, the Giants have told us that Jones will be the starter in 2024 once he's healthy and if they have any concerns at the position its having some insurance if Jones is limited at any time this fall. And re-listening to GM Joe Schoen's season-ending presser it seemed pretty clear that their main goal at QB this off-season will be to find someone - most likely a veteran free agent - capable of stepping in and winning games if Jones can't play.

Giants have the worst record in the NFL since 2013, that's a decade long of misery for fans. Fans that have been saying for 3 years that Daniel Jones isn't the QB thats going to make them any better. Making the playoffs in 2016 and 2022 were a fluke. Both times the team had a 1st year head coach and there was no expectation and opponents didn't have film on the team (see 2017 and 2023).

What from the first 4 years of Jones' career said "thats the guy whos going to win the Giants a super bowl"?

As far as 2024 goes, I just don't see how the Giants win 9-10 games. Automatic 4 losses in the division, another 4 vs the AFC Central, @ Seattle, New Orleans, Bucs...thats 6-11 right there. Strong possibility of losing in Washington and to the Vikings, depending on what they do w/ Cousins and JJ.