Was having a conversation with a source u have within the league who was part of a couple player personnel groups. When I asked about what the Giants need to do in his view this offseason it was immediately “The Giants need to trade up for a QB and they need to do it fast. Like, at the combine fast.”
I was a bit taken aback by why he said “fast”. When asked, he put it this way. Schoen and Daboll ARE on the hot seat. Regardless of what anyone wants to say, the fans dictate the heat of the seat, and they cannot go into next season and have something similar to 2023 happen. Wins are the ultimate healer. They need to have something to show ownership and the fans that they need to be around for longer and, while there are those in the organization that believe in Daniel Jones, that’s where the belief ends. Getting serious free agents that could truly help this team will be hard if Daniel Jones is being sold as the QB of the team. Daniel Jones’s cache in the league doesn’t extend much past the Meadowlands, if that much.
If the Giants can come away with a Caleb Williams or a Jayden Daniels, it would go a large way in changing the perception the team has among free agent players, and can help get some younger guys in the locker room that aren’t big Daniel Jones supporters more behind the team.
Essentially, any message the Giants push is gonna fall on deaf ears and they are gonna have a hard time garnering talent in FA if they keep trying to prop up DJ.
The only difference is that they haven’t paid Fields yet which makes it even easier to move on from him. Would anyone on this site want Fields over Williams knowing you would also have to pay fields the 5th year option and then likely extend him? If Williams pans out in any way the front office of the Bears may never get another job again.
I also do not see the Commanders trading out…especially with the Giants. They need a QB desperately and they have all new ownership, GM, head coach.
New England is the only possibility and that would be if they sign someone in free agency. Unfortunately after Kirk Cousins (coming off an Achilles injury) it is slim pickings.
I could see the possibility if them drafting Harrison Jr. and then trying to get Nix/Penix in round 2. Especially if say they love WIllimas and Daniels and not Maye…Maye is the QB left from the “big 3” and they prefer to go with Harrison Jr who seems like a sure thing.
However i don’t see them trading down…If Harrison goes off the board perhaps we can move up to Arizona’s spot.
Moral of the story is I would be shocked (although happy) if the Giants could move up…especially before free agency even begins.
The only difference is that they haven’t paid Fields yet which makes it even easier to move on from him. Would anyone on this site want Fields over Williams knowing you would also have to pay fields the 5th year option and then likely extend him? If Williams pans out in any way the front office of the Bears may never get another job again.
I also do not see the Commanders trading out…especially with the Giants. They need a QB desperately and they have all new ownership, GM, head coach.
New England is the only possibility and that would be if they sign someone in free agency. Unfortunately after Kirk Cousins (coming off an Achilles injury) it is slim pickings.
I could see the possibility if them drafting Harrison Jr. and then trying to get Nix/Penix in round 2. Especially if say they love WIllimas and Daniels and not Maye…Maye is the QB left from the “big 3” and they prefer to go with Harrison Jr who seems like a sure thing.
However i don’t see them trading down…If Harrison goes off the board perhaps we can move up to Arizona’s spot.
Moral of the story is I would be shocked (although happy) if the Giants could move up…especially before free agency even begins.
This is my opinion too. CHI and WAS are near certainties to pick QBs. The it is up to New England to decide if they want the QB leftovers at #3 or draft MHJ and get a QB later. If that happens, and I think there is a chance, then QB3 probably falls to the Giants.
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In comment 16403244 GoDeep13 said:
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That he said he’s heard there is a trade out there to be made. But it would require a pretty hefty bite of the bullet. He said he heard the conversation starts at 3 1st round picks.
The Bears are obviously the team willing/looking to trade again.
The question is if 1 QB stands above the others in class? I dont have a strong take on that, i see things i like and dislike about all of them.
Most of the analysts and draft nerds I follow see Caleb Williams as the clear #1 and the Bears would be foolish not to draft him.
He's been the chalk pick for a few years but so was Sam Darnold once upon a time.
Caleb has some ugly tape and this is a really strong class with lots of different options.
I hope the Giants are open to trading anyone on the roster. Treat this situation like a blank slate with no sacred cows.
I hope the Giants are open to trading anyone on the roster. Treat this situation like a blank slate with no sacred cows.
That's reasonable, but it again depends on how differently they view the top 4. I'm a little more reluctant on Caleb being worth a premium than most I guess.
When Schoen made the comment in the bye week about going back to their 2018 process and what worked and what didnt (josh allen) i'd be very curious to know what they would have done if they had the #1 OA pick and how differently they graded the 5 guys who went round 1. id imagine whatever their analysis on why Allen worked out for them will inform which traits they most prioritize this year.
If he stays at 6 he still has his other picks and next years first rounder. If he trades back he receives more assets (2nd and ?). If it is a really bold trade back he gets a first (and other picks) for 2025.
He may wind up trading up. I was just presenting another view and I am not sure where he views the QB's in this draft.
Maybe we can call some of the teams at the bottom of the 1st and ask them not to draft players they like so we can draft then in the 2nd.
+ 1
I'm usually pretty measured too but at this point we need a new direction and that will either come with a new QB or a new coach in 2025. I'm done with DJ and half measures.
Much more likely they take one at #6, be it a Maye who slips a little or a JJ whom many believe carries the requisite makeup and skillset.
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Would you trade Thibodeaux, Neal, and Banks for the top QB in this class? I would.
I hope the Giants are open to trading anyone on the roster. Treat this situation like a blank slate with no sacred cows.
That's reasonable, but it again depends on how differently they view the top 4. I'm a little more reluctant on Caleb being worth a premium than most I guess.
When Schoen made the comment in the bye week about going back to their 2018 process and what worked and what didnt (josh allen) i'd be very curious to know what they would have done if they had the #1 OA pick and how differently they graded the 5 guys who went round 1. id imagine whatever their analysis on why Allen worked out for them will inform which traits they most prioritize this year.
I've been saying the same thing for months - there's a 3 step process I hope the Giants have in place:
1. Scout this QB class heavily (they appear to have done so)
2. Score the QB class and determine which one is the most desirable
3. Determine the minimum amount of resources needed to be certain of drafting the most desirable QB. If it's moving up to 1, move up to 1. If it's sitting at 6, sit at 6.
They are high up enough in this draft that every QB is within their reach. A trade from 6 to 1 is not a pie in the sky fantasy. It is absolutely possible; thus whomever they have highest graded is attainable.
This is why you pay Schoen.
Much more likely they take one at #6, be it a Maye who slips a little or a JJ whom many believe carries the requisite makeup and skillset.
Schoen was part of the front office which traded up for Allen. He's traded up for both Banks & Hyatt. I wouldn't be shocked at all.
Rico has said Schoen and the NYG war room were pissed to miss on Sauce Gardner by one pick, I fully expect NYG to be aggressive. I don't see Chicago and WSH trading out. But, NE might. I could also see him trading up to 4 & 5 so he doesn't miss out on a QB to a team like Atlanta or Vegas.
Much more likely they take one at #6, be it a Maye who slips a little or a JJ whom many believe carries the requisite makeup and skillset.
I think it is Daniels who has a chance to slip, not Maye. I think the Maye slipping talk is over. he's the better prospect and will go 2nd to Washington imo.
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What are the current odds in Vegas?
Much more likely they take one at #6, be it a Maye who slips a little or a JJ whom many believe carries the requisite makeup and skillset.
Schoen was part of the front office which traded up for Allen. He's traded up for both Banks & Hyatt. I wouldn't be shocked at all.
Rico has said Schoen and the NYG war room were pissed to miss on Sauce Gardner by one pick, I fully expect NYG to be aggressive. I don't see Chicago and WSH trading out. But, NE might. I could also see him trading up to 4 & 5 so he doesn't miss out on a QB to a team like Atlanta or Vegas.
Much higher price tag to trade up to top 3.
Giants obviously have holes, but they need to be aggressive to get their QB.
I would do that everyday and twice on Sunday.
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In comment 16403280 Go Terps said:
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Would you trade Thibodeaux, Neal, and Banks for the top QB in this class? I would.
I hope the Giants are open to trading anyone on the roster. Treat this situation like a blank slate with no sacred cows.
That's reasonable, but it again depends on how differently they view the top 4. I'm a little more reluctant on Caleb being worth a premium than most I guess.
When Schoen made the comment in the bye week about going back to their 2018 process and what worked and what didnt (josh allen) i'd be very curious to know what they would have done if they had the #1 OA pick and how differently they graded the 5 guys who went round 1. id imagine whatever their analysis on why Allen worked out for them will inform which traits they most prioritize this year.
I've been saying the same thing for months - there's a 3 step process I hope the Giants have in place:
1. Scout this QB class heavily (they appear to have done so)
2. Score the QB class and determine which one is the most desirable
3. Determine the minimum amount of resources needed to be certain of drafting the most desirable QB. If it's moving up to 1, move up to 1. If it's sitting at 6, sit at 6.
They are high up enough in this draft that every QB is within their reach. A trade from 6 to 1 is not a pie in the sky fantasy. It is absolutely possible; thus whomever they have highest graded is attainable.
This is why you pay Schoen.
not exactly true bc i remember our argument from a few months ago when schoen made his comments about qbs pretty clearly, but im glad we have agreement now.
Go Terps : mute : 11/27/2023 1:39 pm : link
I think the QB depth chart is:
Jones
Vet FA (see list of possibilities below)
DeVito
The vet holds down the fort to start the season until Daniel returns.
That's the plan that makes sense to a group that paid Jones and could be out on their asses if they repeat 2023 and start 1-5 or something like that.
Some thoughts on QB going forward based on Schoen's comments - ( New Window )
My 11:52am post from today is what I want them to do.
There's a difference. A big one. The Giants rarely do what I want them to do.
Go Terps : 11/27/2023 2:24 pm : link
In comment 16304883 cosmicj said:
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Let’s review some of the names.
I posted a link to the 2024 FA QBs above. Likely names include:
Tannehill
Brissett
Mariota
Darnold
Mayfield
Minshew
Bridgewater
Dobbs
Please know I'm shaking my head as I've been typing these posts out. I'm not proposing any of this as what I would do.
I think this is all a sick fucking joke.
My 11:52am post from today is what I want them to do.
There's a difference. A big one. The Giants rarely do what I want them to do.
ok but that cuts 2 ways - you rarely acknowledge that sometimes what you want them to do wouldnt have ended up working out (like malik willis or really any qb in the 2022 class).
QB decisions are not nearly as simple or likely to succeed as many like to pretend, it helps improve the chances of success by a lot to have favorable conditions as they do this year.
-Duggan with an article about trading up in his offseason plan.
-Schwartz with a senior bowl article talking about what the league feels about their QB situation.
-Hughes with an article about drafting a QB and the time is now.
-Rapaport with a report about the Giants looking to try to trade up for a QB.
-Jeremiah mocking Daniels to the Giants.
I think Schoen/Daboll will land one of the top six QBs in the draft and a vet brought in.
What will drive many of us crazy though, I'd expect Jones to still have every opportunity to win the job.
If he stays at 6 he still has his other picks and next years first rounder. If he trades back he receives more assets (2nd and ?). If it is a really bold trade back he gets a first (and other picks) for 2025.
He may wind up trading up. I was just presenting another view and I am not sure where he views the QB's in this draft.
They will be far more patient than with Jones. You won't convince me otherwise.
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RE: Who do you have in mind for a vet QB signing?
Go Terps : 11/27/2023 2:24 pm : link
In comment 16304883 cosmicj said:
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Let’s review some of the names.
I posted a link to the 2024 FA QBs above. Likely names include:
Tannehill
Brissett
Mariota
Darnold
Mayfield
Minshew
Bridgewater
Dobbs
Please know I'm shaking my head as I've been typing these posts out. I'm not proposing any of this as what I would do.
I think this is all a sick fucking joke.
i argued against your reasons for thinking they'd do that in the thread, they didnt make sense then and they dont make sense now. your post in this thread seemed to imply a change of opinion when you said that "they appear to have scouted this class heavily" and "this is why they pay schoen".
Daniels would get killed behind our offensive line. What are you going to ask Jones to take that punishment knowing that you drafted his replacement?
If the two QBs are gone at six the Giants should seriously entertain offers to trade down. There will be many good players ready to step in later in round 1, 2 and 3.
You can bring up Malik Willis until the cows come home, but the worst case scenario after picking him is still better than where we are right now.
+1… it’s a fallacy. Free agents follow the money and play on bad teams too with so called bad or unestablished QBs. Makes no sense.
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If you look later in that thread you'll see this post from me:
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RE: Who do you have in mind for a vet QB signing?
Go Terps : 11/27/2023 2:24 pm : link
In comment 16304883 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Let’s review some of the names.
I posted a link to the 2024 FA QBs above. Likely names include:
Tannehill
Brissett
Mariota
Darnold
Mayfield
Minshew
Bridgewater
Dobbs
Please know I'm shaking my head as I've been typing these posts out. I'm not proposing any of this as what I would do.
I think this is all a sick fucking joke.
i argued against your reasons for thinking they'd do that in the thread, they didnt make sense then and they dont make sense now. your post in this thread seemed to imply a change of opinion when you said that "they appear to have scouted this class heavily" and "this is why they pay schoen".
I still think the most likely scenario is they enter 2024 with the following QB depth chart:
1. Jones
2. Vet to hold down the fort (Taylor/Tannehill/Mariota/etc)
3. Day 3 pick or DeVito
They've gotten 6 games out of that Jones contract. To reverse themselves on Jones again would be a huge surprise to me.
Much more likely they take one at #6, be it a Maye who slips a little or a JJ whom many believe carries the requisite makeup and skillset.
I'll believe it when I see it, too.
If Schoen does force his way up by selling off future picks, I think he buys himself another three years as GM. That's what Mara gave Gettleman with Jones (although the cancer part may have been a factor). So, there is some self-preservation...
Further, if this were to play out, it would be more evidence that Mara has taken his hand off the gavel. And Schoen's hand is the only one swinging it.
You can bring up Malik Willis until the cows come home, but the worst case scenario after picking him is still better than where we are right now.
wrong. he's been exponentially worse than what devito showed last year, and he'd have probably cost them thibodeaux since OL was the bigger need than DL. he has attempted 66 passes, completed approximately half of them, and has 3 ints and no tds. his team moved on from him almost immediately because all of the fears of him being more athlete than qb were glaring.
so if they'd have picked willis they'd have a less promising QB prospect than they actually have, and they'd be down 1 of the top 2 or 3 assets on their current roster.
I still think the most likely scenario is they enter 2024 with the following QB depth chart:
1. Jones
2. Vet to hold down the fort (Taylor/Tannehill/Mariota/etc)
3. Day 3 pick or DeVito
They've gotten 6 games out of that Jones contract. To reverse themselves on Jones again would be a huge surprise to me.
a) drafting a qb isnt necessarily reversing on jones, it's hedging. not just his injury but the long term. a first round qb would have 2 years of control beyond jones' contract even if he played so well to see the end of it, plus tags beyond that (so 4 total years of control beyond jones). 2 options are better than 1 option (or no option if jones athleticism doesnt come all the way back).
b) i'd bet a lot of money they dont commit meaningful money to any QB (like tannehill) in FA. if taylor is willing to sign back cheap or some other journeyman like glennon was is willing to sign for the minimum i could see that in part because it helps camouflage any draft intentions but their dollars will say a lot more than anything else and i dont think they will be committing dollars to a veteran QB.
Much like missing the evaluation on Jones and giving him the god-awful contract yet evaluating it as an A-type deal for the Giants.
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I still think the most likely scenario is they enter 2024 with the following QB depth chart:
1. Jones
2. Vet to hold down the fort (Taylor/Tannehill/Mariota/etc)
3. Day 3 pick or DeVito
They've gotten 6 games out of that Jones contract. To reverse themselves on Jones again would be a huge surprise to me.
a) drafting a qb isnt necessarily reversing on jones, it's hedging. not just his injury but the long term. a first round qb would have 2 years of control beyond jones' contract even if he played so well to see the end of it, plus tags beyond that (so 4 total years of control beyond jones). 2 options are better than 1 option (or no option if jones athleticism doesnt come all the way back).
b) i'd bet a lot of money they dont commit meaningful money to any QB (like tannehill) in FA. if taylor is willing to sign back cheap or some other journeyman like glennon was is willing to sign for the minimum i could see that in part because it helps camouflage any draft intentions but their dollars will say a lot more than anything else and i dont think they will be committing dollars to a veteran QB.
If they trade up to draft a QB, or if they draft one at 6, that is not hedging on Jones. That is replacing him.
And they will add a vet FA QB; that's practically guaranteed. How much they spend, I don't know. My guess would be similar to what they spent on Taylor before.
But they're not going to exit FA with just Jones and DeVito on the depth chart.
If you get smoked by the Cowboys with a new QB, fans will have more patience.
IMO, Eric, there's no way Daboll will start a rookie in the first game of the year against Dallas.
I'm not arguing that the stands might be empty by September, but you can't cripple a new QB (mentally, physically or both) by exposing him to the Cowboy pass rush. Nor can you expect a rookie to absorb Daboll's offense or be familiar with his WR's with the limited amount of time (OTA's, Camp) that football teams have now.
It takes time to get used the the speed of the game in the NFL, it will be NOTHING like what they saw in college. I think a new QB can be worked in early against teams of lesser caliber than Dallas or Philly early in the season.
I expect either Jones will start (if healthy) or DeVito/FA QB against Dallas if that's the first game of the year. John Mara simply isn't going to cut Schoen/Daboll in 2024, they will get at least the 2025 season to turn things around, unless Daboll has a Judge meltdown.
You can bring up Malik Willis until the cows come home, but the worst case scenario after picking him is still better than where we are right now.
Lol. So basically any prediction that you make - including if you are catastrophically wrong about that prediction - you still can come on this message board and say well actually it would have been a decent outcome if we drafted Willis!
Do you realize how insane that is?
Plus as mentioned, the FA period starts real soon, so the trade up would be now and the message that a QB is coming has to be vocalized, which tips their hand and hurts their leverage.
Doubt it happens this way.
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What are the current odds in Vegas?
Much more likely they take one at #6, be it a Maye who slips a little or a JJ whom many believe carries the requisite makeup and skillset.
I think it is Daniels who has a chance to slip, not Maye. I think the Maye slipping talk is over. he's the better prospect and will go 2nd to Washington imo.
I sure hope JD doesn't go to Washington, but if they can't trade up.for CW I think he is their likely choice as he projects to thrive in an offense like Kingsbury's
I hope the Giants are open to trading anyone on the roster. Treat this situation like a blank slate with no sacred cows.
Would I trade the best edge rusher the team has had in a decade and our best cornerback we've drafted in a decade to get a top QB? No, I would not.