I know Mahomes is the comp for Williams for a lot here, but doesn't seem Sy is as big on him as some are (wanting to trade up to 1 for him). Says he is closer to Mayfield and Murray than he is Mahomes.
Just posted this today so thought it was an interesting watch.
Link - (
New Window )
No one is never wrong and I'm pretty sure I've seen Sy admit when he's wrong in the past. But unlike most here, he actually does this stuff for a living and NO ONE bats 1.000. That being said, there are red flags with Williams if you actually watch the video linked here. Not saying they're not able to be coached out of him or coached up, but there are issues in Williams' game. Not the tools, but his play.
Comparing anyone to Mahomes isn't fair. The guy is a Hall of Famer and one of the very best ever if he never plays another down.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
Let’s see how the draft process shakes out. A lot of minds can and will be changed.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
Exactly, and I would argue that Williams is a better prospect at this point than Mahomes was. If you think Caleb was careless with the ball this past season, take a look at Mahomes TTech tape.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
This is correct. It’s arm talent and mobility. Nobody can tell if the kid has the desire and drive of Patrick. Patrick also landed with Andy Reid. Sat behind a real pro in Alex smith and took over a team that was basically in the afc championship game.
Comparing anyone to Mahomes isn't fair. The guy is a Hall of Famer and one of the very best ever if he never plays another down.
Agreed word for word.
Also, a huge % of people didn't know Mahomes was MAHOMES until his first full year of NFL starting was in the books. Honestly, NO ONE thought he'd be this good.
Comparing anyone to the best QB ever is absurd. Can Williams be an elite or close to elite QB is the only question. Forget Mahomes.
Comparing anyone to Mahomes isn't fair. The guy is a Hall of Famer and one of the very best ever if he never plays another down.
Except in the pocket Williams is nothing like Kyler. He has many times the pocket presence and he has elite arm talent. So if you tell me make Kyler bigger, add top 5 arm talent and better overall pocket ability and elite pocket presence, then you are talking about a top 4 NFL QB. In fact Daniels is a better comp for Kyler.
Let’s see how the draft process shakes out. A lot of minds can and will be changed.
except the legendary Ben McAdoo
Yup
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at Texas Tech. Because there are some similarities.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
This is correct. It’s arm talent and mobility. Nobody can tell if the kid has the desire and drive of Patrick. Patrick also landed with Andy Reid. Sat behind a real pro in Alex smith and took over a team that was basically in the afc championship game.
Mahomes was the definition of reckless and fearless at Lubbock. He would try anything at any time. And his arm and athleticism allowed him to pull it off.
You see quite a bit of that with CW at USC.
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
Sy - and many others - didn't see a great QB in Mahomes in college. You are looking for tools, smarts and coachability. I have no idea what Williams' upside is in the NFL, but "Williams is not Mahomes" is sort of in the ballpark of "Rome Odunze is not Jerry Rice." It's an absurd discussion to ever have.
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
And? What is wrong with the writeup? Again, people seem to miss what evaluating a player is. It is based off of what they have shown with projection mixed in. However, how much can you really project someone? He clearly stated that his upside is better than anyone. He said he'll probably have to sit a year or two before he is ready and does that warrant a first round pick? I think he nails it.
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
WTF? Sy was essentially off by one year. Everything he said was correct except that it would take 2 years...it took sitting just 1.
Sy - and many others - didn't see a great QB in Mahomes in college. You are looking for tools, smarts and coachability. I have no idea what Williams' upside is in the NFL, but "Williams is not Mahomes" is sort of in the ballpark of "Rome Odunze is not Jerry Rice." It's an absurd discussion to ever have.
Good post. Sort of surprised Sy would tack this way.
Like I said above, Mahomes was incredibly reckless at TT. But, JFC, was he a fun watch. Some of the throws he attempted - and completed - were from a different galaxy.
The reality ended up being that while you wouldn't teach Mahomes's mechanics to someone else, it's clear that his mechanics work for him.
I don't think the NFL is where you go to improve your mechanics. You've either proven that what you do works or you haven't. I'd keep that in mind with Williams as well as Penix.
The 2018 draft is another example where people forget how they pushed narratives of Darnold and Rosen, Allen begore Lamar Jackson but act now like Giants were horrible by not drafting Allen and or Jackson.
We can all agree the Giants, Daboll needs his own QB to win or lose with. Jones isn't that guy. He will be somebody's Ryan Tannehill or Mtchell Trubisky (after this year).
I don't think the NFL is where you go to improve your mechanics. You've either proven that what you do works or you haven't. I'd keep that in mind with Williams as well as Penix.
I would push back on this some. Favre was a disaster out of S.Miss. Rodgers overhauled his mechanics coming in from Cal. Allen has cleaned up a lot of his loose mechanics from Wyoming.
The reality ended up being that while you wouldn't teach Mahomes's mechanics to someone else, it's clear that his mechanics work for him.
I don't think the NFL is where you go to improve your mechanics. You've either proven that what you do works or you haven't. I'd keep that in mind with Williams as well as Penix.
Mechanics can be taught as we saw with Josh Allen. His mechanics coming out were atrocious. The key to me is do they have the intelligence and work ethic to adapt enough to the NFL. The concern is that some guys rely solely on athletic ability and that does not fly in the NFL. What made Allen different than someone like Malik Willis in college was that you could see that Allen was scanning the whole field and was making the right reads, but his mechanics were a mess. Willis, on the other hand, had guys open that he would miss because he would scan one portion of the field and if nobody was open he would run.
Mahomes also sat a year like Sy thought he should and Andy Reid worked with people like Colin Kaepernick's college coach to put together a scheme that would work for what Mahomes did well. Had Mahomes been thrown to the wolves Week 1 on a team like the Giants have now I think you get different results. He would still be a good QB, but I don't think he would have had the same results he has put up in KC.
If I am a GM the interviews will say a lot about where I rank Caleb Williams. Can he show that he has the football IQ to be able to work with NFL coaching or is he just going to rely on what got him to this point. Kyler Murray is not reaching his potential because he does not have that football IQ.
Let’s see how the draft process shakes out. A lot of minds can and will be changed.
They were some high on P.M. and calling him a sleeper pick. The draft is a crapshoot but let's not act like Mahomes was in the same bucket as Brady in the draft. I
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
I guess he was worth a first round pick in retrospect....
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I don't think the NFL is where you go to improve your mechanics. You've either proven that what you do works or you haven't. I'd keep that in mind with Williams as well as Penix.
I would push back on this some. Favre was a disaster out of S.Miss. Rodgers overhauled his mechanics coming in from Cal. Allen has cleaned up a lot of his loose mechanics from Wyoming.
We've all seen enough QBs now that we'll be able to come up with examples in any column. I could point to Rivers, Kosar, Lamar, Cunningham, or a bunch of other guys whose mechanics aren't what you would teach, but it worked for them.
And those 3 examples you make all have historic arm talent, and frequently throw from odd angles and platforms.
In the examples of Williams and Penix, both can clearly throw the ball with power and accuracy. I wouldn't be concerned with either in terms of mechanics.
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5 – Patrick Mahomes – Texas Tech – 6’2/225: 76
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
I guess he was worth a first round pick in retrospect....
Yes, in KC it was perfect for him. Sit for a year and be a willing, hard working student coached by one of the best QB/Offensive minds in the league. He would not have had that here, and probably not in most NFL teams.
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
He wasn't completely wrong, as Mahomes redshirted his rookie year.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
There are 3 QBs per year that can compare to Mahomes at Texas Tech.
When comparisons are made - we all know it is not comparing to their college tape.
For Sy this us a risky take. He missed on Mahomes and if CW emerges as a top 3 QB, which is within his range of outcomes, then along with the Mahomes whiff, it is fair to wonder if Sy has a blind spot evaluating quarterbacks, focusing more on fumbles rather than creativity, pocket presence and arm talent.
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at Texas Tech. Because there are some similarities.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
Exactly, and I would argue that Williams is a better prospect at this point than Mahomes was. If you think Caleb was careless with the ball this past season, take a look at Mahomes TTech tape.
Willams will grade out better than where I had Mahomes, yes.
I still believe comparing the two is a clear sign people aren't actually watching.
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
Sitting out for a year panned out
Sy - and many others - didn't see a great QB in Mahomes in college. You are looking for tools, smarts and coachability. I have no idea what Williams' upside is in the NFL, but "Williams is not Mahomes" is sort of in the ballpark of "Rome Odunze is not Jerry Rice." It's an absurd discussion to ever have.
The problem is I've read multiple times that Williams is the next Mahomes
Nothing about it is accurate.
I feel Daboll can get the most out of any of these kids and I'd be happy if they got someone early they like. Not Penix, though.
But the video is mostly about comparing him to an all-time great QB is just silly unless you want to state certain highlight reels look the same.
You guys know I am not a fan of comparisons - unless it is stated what they're for.
And yes - I get it wrong sometimes and I have zero issues admitting that. There isn't anyone in the NFL or media that can say otherwise - it's part of the job. I had Josh Rosen graded very high and it was the worst miss of my year. There will be others as well.
There are 3 QBs per year that can compare to Mahomes at Texas Tech.
When comparisons are made - we all know it is not comparing to their college tape.
With all due respect, I suggest you go back and rewatch what Mahomes was doing in Lubbock. That wasn't normal and I don't see that every year. NFW.
I believe there is a path to say Williams looks like Mahomes at TT - in style, athleticism, and throwing - and that could signal something special in the NFL.
So much is luck, too. Right? Mahomes got under the master handling of Reid. CW could end up in Chicago in an environment much more challenging...
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5 – Patrick Mahomes – Texas Tech – 6’2/225: 76
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
I guess he was worth a first round pick in retrospect....
You guys are missing the point on his question about whether "that is worth" a first round pick. He's talking about him possibly needing to sit for two years (of a 5-year contract) before starting, not his talent.
Sitting used to be the norm for a QB taken in the first round. Look at the best QBs of the last 20 years. A whole lot of them sat for a year, sometimes two. Now teams want to throw guys on the field right away, whether they are ready of not, because they could lose then in 5 (or 4) years. The Panthers may have ruined Young by throwing him out there from day 1.
I always take what Sy says as one more guy's opinion. But he's not just giving his opinions based on highlight videos, as many here do. He watches the whole game. Williams has highlight reel plays where he scrambles all over the place and then finally finds a WR open because no DB can cover a guy forever. That's not what makes a great QB. If you want to rate QBs, watch what they do when they have to stay in the pocket and make reads and throws with pressure in their face and tight coverage on receivers.
I'm thinking what if ND was Philly? I'm off him.
The kid has a long way to go before that is a conversation.
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There are 3 QBs per year that can compare to Mahomes at Texas Tech.
When comparisons are made - we all know it is not comparing to their college tape.
With all due respect, I suggest you go back and rewatch what Mahomes was doing in Lubbock. That wasn't normal and I don't see that every year. NFW.
I believe there is a path to say Williams looks like Mahomes at TT - in style, athleticism, and throwing - and that could signal something special in the NFL.
So much is luck, too. Right? Mahomes got under the master handling of Reid. CW could end up in Chicago in an environment much more challenging...
I saw plenty of Mahomes
And yes a MAJOR piece of his success was getting linked up with Reid (same with Purdy getting linked with Shanahan). But I don't want to take away from his success - what he does in clutch situations and the gamer mentality + leadership traits are all him. His work ethic is second to none and at the end of the day - that always ends up being the case with all time greats. Obsessing over what others overlook.
Zach Wilson had a bunch of Mahomes-type plays in college. So did Bryce Young. So did Sam Howell. So did Jordan Love.
The projection to Murray/Mayfield is also interesting and somewhat bearish relative to average, but that's more subjective and requires greater judgement.
If we have faith in Daboll, he will identify the guy who fits what he wants out of a QB, and clean up any shortcomings.
That's why the time is right to get HIS guy.
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In comment 16403539 bw in dc said:
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at Texas Tech. Because there are some similarities.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
This is correct. It’s arm talent and mobility. Nobody can tell if the kid has the desire and drive of Patrick. Patrick also landed with Andy Reid. Sat behind a real pro in Alex smith and took over a team that was basically in the afc championship game.
Mahomes was the definition of reckless and fearless at Lubbock. He would try anything at any time. And his arm and athleticism allowed him to pull it off.
You see quite a bit of that with CW at USC.
We’ve had our disagreements on this board but with this I’m with you 100 percent. What worries me is his personality. That’s where I see the Kyler Murray comp. His play style isn’t Murray at all. Murray had to be on the move to find passing lanes. Caleb’s arm talent is undeniable.
We’ve had our disagreements on this board but with this I’m with you 100 percent. What worries me is his personality. That’s where I see the Kyler Murray comp. His play style isn’t Murray at all. Murray had to be on the move to find passing lanes. Caleb’s arm talent is undeniable.
I think that's a legit concern. I remember listening to Mahomes before the 2017 draft on Jon Gruden's ESPN show for QB prospects (a great show, btw). And it didn't take long to see that Mahomes was going to be super-coachable, was humble, and had the right demeanor.
CW has a lot of convincing to do to dispel those concerns.
2017 and 2018 Mahomes couldn't read NFL defenses (by his own admission), so that's something else to take into account. Certainly against the Patriots it looked like he didn't.
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We’ve had our disagreements on this board but with this I’m with you 100 percent. What worries me is his personality. That’s where I see the Kyler Murray comp. His play style isn’t Murray at all. Murray had to be on the move to find passing lanes. Caleb’s arm talent is undeniable.
I think that's a legit concern. I remember listening to Mahomes before the 2017 draft on Jon Gruden's ESPN show for QB prospects (a great show, btw). And it didn't take long to see that Mahomes was going to be super-coachable, was humble, and had the right demeanor.
CW has a lot of convincing to do to dispel those concerns.
I can buy this. There is a difference between confidence and arrogance. I am not familiar with all the between the ears stuff with Caleb, but I want the next qb to be ready to learn and get better. Not have a feeling that he is already the best at what he does. Thats a big selling point for me with JJ.
Who said he is never wrong? Even the best GM’s in football are wrong at times. IIRC Sy also said that Zach Wilson was a gimmick QB who he had as a day 2 pick. The 49’ers have built the deepest most talented team in the NFL and they traded three 1st round picks to move up for Trey Lance.
Also, "he's not patrick mahomes" is still not a reason not to draft someone or not to rate them highly. Patrick Mahomes himself was not that.
What a brutal fucking career. Never started a game or threw a pass after “leading” Browns to 0-15 in games he played. Out after 4 years. Still just 28. Poor bastard.
Also, "he's not patrick mahomes" is still not a reason not to draft someone or not to rate them highly. Patrick Mahomes himself was not that.
That's why I am curious how Texas Tech Mahomes compares to NFL Mahomes. It seems apples to oranges to compare a college prosepct to a successful NFL player. But what is useful is comparing TT Mahomes to USC Williams.
If they were similar in college, then I think the takeaway is that Williams can LEARN how to be an NFL QB like Mahomes did. This is assuming TT Mahomes was very different than NFL Mahomes.
A lot of these plays/throws are just brilliant. And just watch the zip on some of the throws. That's not ordinary. Nor are the throws when he is rolling left and throwing lasers down the field.
Mahomes being Mahomes... - ( New Window )
Also, "he's not patrick mahomes" is still not a reason not to draft someone or not to rate them highly. Patrick Mahomes himself was not that.
Do not take this as Williams is not worth drafting.
He is a top 6 player in this draft class for me so YES - he is the guy unless Jayden Daniels is there.
But the video is mostly about comparing him to an all-time great QB is just silly unless you want to state certain highlight reels look the same.
You guys know I am not a fan of comparisons - unless it is stated what they're for.
And yes - I get it wrong sometimes and I have zero issues admitting that. There isn't anyone in the NFL or media that can say otherwise - it's part of the job. I had Josh Rosen graded very high and it was the worst miss of my year. There will be others as well.
You mean like JJ??
Sorry couldn't help myself Sy
That's why I am curious how Texas Tech Mahomes compares to NFL Mahomes. It seems apples to oranges to compare a college prosepct to a successful NFL player. But what is useful is comparing TT Mahomes to USC Williams.
If they were similar in college, then I think the takeaway is that Williams can LEARN how to be an NFL QB like Mahomes did. This is assuming TT Mahomes was very different than NFL Mahomes.
Check out the link I provided. IMV, you can see why Mahomes/TT comes up as a comp for CW...
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But don't take this the wrong way. I have him graded high (a YES if he is there at 6) and one of the higher grades I've given out in recent years.
But the video is mostly about comparing him to an all-time great QB is just silly unless you want to state certain highlight reels look the same.
You guys know I am not a fan of comparisons - unless it is stated what they're for.
And yes - I get it wrong sometimes and I have zero issues admitting that. There isn't anyone in the NFL or media that can say otherwise - it's part of the job. I had Josh Rosen graded very high and it was the worst miss of my year. There will be others as well.
You mean like JJ??
Sorry couldn't help myself Sy
Absolutely could be
I would be surprised if Sy didn't have it that way...
A lot of these plays/throws are just brilliant. And just watch the zip on some of the throws. That's not ordinary. Nor are the throws when he is rolling left and throwing lasers down the field. Mahomes being Mahomes... - ( New Window )
The throw at 6:49...that is not a normal looking throw. Unbelievable.
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Sy' reading between the lines Daniels > Williams?
I would be surprised if Sy didn't have it that way...
I think it's crazy. Daniels has ordinary arm talent compared to Williams and he looks like he will break in half at his present ht/wt.
The throw at 6:49...that is not a normal looking throw. Unbelievable.
Almost every throw from that point on are sensational. The throw fading away at the 8:15 is a gem...
No you didn’t
I think it's crazy. Daniels has ordinary arm talent compared to Williams and he looks like he will break in half at his present ht/wt.
Daniels did just fine in the NFL-lite, the SEC, taking hits. And he ran away like a panther against great athletes. But I get the concern. It's not unreasonable.
We definitely diverge on JD's arm talent. I think it's in the plus category.
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In comment 16403691 Sy'56 said:
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But don't take this the wrong way. I have him graded high (a YES if he is there at 6) and one of the higher grades I've given out in recent years.
But the video is mostly about comparing him to an all-time great QB is just silly unless you want to state certain highlight reels look the same.
You guys know I am not a fan of comparisons - unless it is stated what they're for.
And yes - I get it wrong sometimes and I have zero issues admitting that. There isn't anyone in the NFL or media that can say otherwise - it's part of the job. I had Josh Rosen graded very high and it was the worst miss of my year. There will be others as well.
You mean like JJ??
Sorry couldn't help myself Sy
Absolutely could be
Hahahaaa
Well played Sy
I only wish folks would speak about me in the 3rd person...
Frankly I am taking everyone's word on all these guys. I think I do like Daniels best. But again limited games watched. I like Nix, too. Like how he gets the ball out quickly and accurately.
But this I do know - all of them are much better than Jones.
Frankly I am taking everyone's word on all these guys. I think I do like Daniels best. But again limited games watched. I like Nix, too. Like how he gets the ball out quickly and accurately.
But this I do know - all of them are much better than Jones.
You don't see elite arm talent and creative playmaking ability? Maybe you should give it another go. Here is a link I provided to Matt Waldman analysis.
Matt Waldman /Caleb Williams film room - ( New Window )
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with Williams. I just don't. Every game I saw him in he lost and did not look good at all. Sorry in advance. I still go back to PAC-12 defenses. Penix and Nix did better.
Frankly I am taking everyone's word on all these guys. I think I do like Daniels best. But again limited games watched. I like Nix, too. Like how he gets the ball out quickly and accurately.
But this I do know - all of them are much better than Jones.
You don't see elite arm talent and creative playmaking ability? Maybe you should give it another go. Here is a link I provided to Matt Waldman analysis. Matt Waldman /Caleb Williams film room - ( New Window )
Yeah, great, a highlight film.
I didn't say I was right, I just never saw him do well.
Don’t know anything about his play and can’t watch the video right now but I’d question bring a crier to play for a team with such a bullish and borderline asshole fanbase.
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In comment 16403918 section125 said:
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with Williams. I just don't. Every game I saw him in he lost and did not look good at all. Sorry in advance. I still go back to PAC-12 defenses. Penix and Nix did better.
Frankly I am taking everyone's word on all these guys. I think I do like Daniels best. But again limited games watched. I like Nix, too. Like how he gets the ball out quickly and accurately.
But this I do know - all of them are much better than Jones.
You don't see elite arm talent and creative playmaking ability? Maybe you should give it another go. Here is a link I provided to Matt Waldman analysis. Matt Waldman /Caleb Williams film room - ( New Window )
Yeah, great, a highlight film.
I didn't say I was right, I just never saw him do well.
Its all he posts about.... 2 topics:
1) how much Jones sucks
2) how awesome Caleb Williams is going to be and Mara should trade all of our picks, his brother and his left jut to move up to get him.
Eric recently talked about the success of QB prospects being largely tied to what's between the ears. Any reasonable talent evaluator would have to agree. You can't measure this on highlight film. And you can have all the arm talent in the world and fail because of not having it where it counts.
And Williams DOES have all the arm talent in the world. He is an A+++ prospect based on arm talent alone. But arm talent by itself is perhaps the worst predictor of NFL success that there is.
There are two basic types of intelligence. There is IQ and EQ. I don't know enough about Williams to make a certain judgement on either. I don't think he's an unintelligent man in terms of IQ.
But I think EQ is so underrated in QB prospect evaluation. That position demands high EQ. I have questions here. How does a QB respond to failure? How is he as a leader of men? When the stakes are immense and dealing with intense stress (often in the physical form of pressure), can he stay composed and execute in an intense environment? Can you take accountability for your own mistakes and be humble when you cost your team, or will you deflect blame?
I would say I have serious doubts about Williams' EQ. Off the field, he seems to me to be self-absorbed in his own perceived greatness. He didn't deliver often in high-stress situations.
If you compare him to Daniels in terms of composure under pressure, Daniels is undoubted superior, against tougher competition. Failure drives the greats to be better, it fuels them to improve. Failure angers them, but pushes them. With Mahomes, the one thing that sticks out is seeking solace in his mother's arms. I don't want to make too much of a deal of that, but it does raise a question to me about his EQ.
Think about Eli's composure in throughout his NFL career in big moments. I think about that 2011 season NFCCG against SF. To me that was Eli's greatest game of his career, because he was hit relentlessly and under intense pressure, and kept his composure and continued to execute and ultimately won that game.
Ernie Accorsi called it "the IT factor". I think what he was talking about is high EQ. Eli had that. The great ones combine high on-field and off-field IQ, EQ, and physical talent. I have zero doubts in Williams' physical talent. But that places in a distant third to the two former categories as predictors of future NFL success. And those categories are also the hardest to measure for any QB prospect. In a nutshell, this is why so many highly rated QB prospects don't pan out in the NFL, because so much weight is given to more definable measurables such as arm talent and athletic ability, when those things are nice to haves compared to a QB with high IQ and EQ. This is why a guy like Brock Purdy, who was not an impressive QB prospect when it came to physical and athletic makeup has had the success he has had. He has terrific IQ and EQ, that has manifested itself on the field. It's why Tom Brady was a 6th round draft pick that became the GOAT...it's his elite IQ and EQ.
With Williams, to me it seems that true believers like Producer take all of his physical ability and project him to be a superstar QB. Where my concerns are about maturity, on-field IQ and EQ. I'm not saying I'm right. As I said, these are the hardest attributes to quantify for prospects. But if I compare him to Daniels, I get a better comfort level in composure and maturity...signs that he is superior "between the ears", and this is to say nothing about how he compares to the other QB prospects in this draft.
Manhattan = Producer
Eric recently talked about the success of QB prospects being largely tied to what's between the ears. Any reasonable talent evaluator would have to agree. You can't measure this on highlight film. And you can have all the arm talent in the world and fail because of not having it where it counts.
And Williams DOES have all the arm talent in the world. He is an A+++ prospect based on arm talent alone. But arm talent by itself is perhaps the worst predictor of NFL success that there is.
There are two basic types of intelligence. There is IQ and EQ. I don't know enough about Williams to make a certain judgement on either. I don't think he's an unintelligent man in terms of IQ.
But I think EQ is so underrated in QB prospect evaluation. That position demands high EQ. I have questions here. How does a QB respond to failure? How is he as a leader of men? When the stakes are immense and dealing with intense stress (often in the physical form of pressure), can he stay composed and execute in an intense environment? Can you take accountability for your own mistakes and be humble when you cost your team, or will you deflect blame?
I would say I have serious doubts about Williams' EQ. Off the field, he seems to me to be self-absorbed in his own perceived greatness. He didn't deliver often in high-stress situations.
If you compare him to Daniels in terms of composure under pressure, Daniels is undoubted superior, against tougher competition. Failure drives the greats to be better, it fuels them to improve. Failure angers them, but pushes them. With Mahomes, the one thing that sticks out is seeking solace in his mother's arms. I don't want to make too much of a deal of that, but it does raise a question to me about his EQ.
Think about Eli's composure in throughout his NFL career in big moments. I think about that 2011 season NFCCG against SF. To me that was Eli's greatest game of his career, because he was hit relentlessly and under intense pressure, and kept his composure and continued to execute and ultimately won that game.
Ernie Accorsi called it "the IT factor". I think what he was talking about is high EQ. Eli had that. The great ones combine high on-field and off-field IQ, EQ, and physical talent. I have zero doubts in Williams' physical talent. But that places in a distant third to the two former categories as predictors of future NFL success. And those categories are also the hardest to measure for any QB prospect. In a nutshell, this is why so many highly rated QB prospects don't pan out in the NFL, because so much weight is given to more definable measurables such as arm talent and athletic ability, when those things are nice to haves compared to a QB with high IQ and EQ. This is why a guy like Brock Purdy, who was not an impressive QB prospect when it came to physical and athletic makeup has had the success he has had. He has terrific IQ and EQ, that has manifested itself on the field. It's why Tom Brady was a 6th round draft pick that became the GOAT...it's his elite IQ and EQ.
With Williams, to me it seems that true believers like Producer take all of his physical ability and project him to be a superstar QB. Where my concerns are about maturity, on-field IQ and EQ. I'm not saying I'm right. As I said, these are the hardest attributes to quantify for prospects. But if I compare him to Daniels, I get a better comfort level in composure and maturity...signs that he is superior "between the ears", and this is to say nothing about how he compares to the other QB prospects in this draft.
Good post
Quote:
About the big question mark with Williams.
Eric recently talked about the success of QB prospects being largely tied to what's between the ears. Any reasonable talent evaluator would have to agree. You can't measure this on highlight film. And you can have all the arm talent in the world and fail because of not having it where it counts.
And Williams DOES have all the arm talent in the world. He is an A+++ prospect based on arm talent alone. But arm talent by itself is perhaps the worst predictor of NFL success that there is.
There are two basic types of intelligence. There is IQ and EQ. I don't know enough about Williams to make a certain judgement on either. I don't think he's an unintelligent man in terms of IQ.
But I think EQ is so underrated in QB prospect evaluation. That position demands high EQ. I have questions here. How does a QB respond to failure? How is he as a leader of men? When the stakes are immense and dealing with intense stress (often in the physical form of pressure), can he stay composed and execute in an intense environment? Can you take accountability for your own mistakes and be humble when you cost your team, or will you deflect blame?
I would say I have serious doubts about Williams' EQ. Off the field, he seems to me to be self-absorbed in his own perceived greatness. He didn't deliver often in high-stress situations.
If you compare him to Daniels in terms of composure under pressure, Daniels is undoubted superior, against tougher competition. Failure drives the greats to be better, it fuels them to improve. Failure angers them, but pushes them. With Mahomes, the one thing that sticks out is seeking solace in his mother's arms. I don't want to make too much of a deal of that, but it does raise a question to me about his EQ.
Think about Eli's composure in throughout his NFL career in big moments. I think about that 2011 season NFCCG against SF. To me that was Eli's greatest game of his career, because he was hit relentlessly and under intense pressure, and kept his composure and continued to execute and ultimately won that game.
Ernie Accorsi called it "the IT factor". I think what he was talking about is high EQ. Eli had that. The great ones combine high on-field and off-field IQ, EQ, and physical talent. I have zero doubts in Williams' physical talent. But that places in a distant third to the two former categories as predictors of future NFL success. And those categories are also the hardest to measure for any QB prospect. In a nutshell, this is why so many highly rated QB prospects don't pan out in the NFL, because so much weight is given to more definable measurables such as arm talent and athletic ability, when those things are nice to haves compared to a QB with high IQ and EQ. This is why a guy like Brock Purdy, who was not an impressive QB prospect when it came to physical and athletic makeup has had the success he has had. He has terrific IQ and EQ, that has manifested itself on the field. It's why Tom Brady was a 6th round draft pick that became the GOAT...it's his elite IQ and EQ.
With Williams, to me it seems that true believers like Producer take all of his physical ability and project him to be a superstar QB. Where my concerns are about maturity, on-field IQ and EQ. I'm not saying I'm right. As I said, these are the hardest attributes to quantify for prospects. But if I compare him to Daniels, I get a better comfort level in composure and maturity...signs that he is superior "between the ears", and this is to say nothing about how he compares to the other QB prospects in this draft.
Good post
I concur with Sy, but would also add that with anything if you are trading talent for higher EQ the returns are not worth it. Some teams try to max it out, but my observation is that once a QB reaches a certain threshold then you just don’t get any incremental gain from going higher on that scale if talent is dropping off faster.
This bothered me too...I don't know if this is fair but my first thought when I saw that was that he knew the cameras would pick it up and it was a calculated move to keep the attention on him after he got outplayed by Penix, who was also a Heisman candidate and possible rival for elite NFL draft status.
I had similar skepticism about this:
It means emotional intelligence and is kind of a twist on IQ.
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what is EQ?
It means emotional intelligence and is kind of a twist on IQ.
So the modern way of saying calm under fire...doesn't get rattled.
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In comment 16404054 section125 said:
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what is EQ?
It means emotional intelligence and is kind of a twist on IQ.
So the modern way of saying calm under fire...doesn't get rattled.
It is more than that. If you read the post it also encompasses accountability and leadership traits, work ethic, etc. To put it another way, the tools do not matter if the players around you don’t want you to succeed or you don’t put in the effort needed to be an NFL QB. Aaron Rodgers can be a dick of a person, but those that get in his inner circle go all out for him. Contrast that to a Jeff George where his OL wanted him to get sacked hard.
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In comment 16404059 Heisenberg said:
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In comment 16404054 section125 said:
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what is EQ?
It means emotional intelligence and is kind of a twist on IQ.
So the modern way of saying calm under fire...doesn't get rattled.
It is more than that. If you read the post it also encompasses accountability and leadership traits, work ethic, etc. To put it another way, the tools do not matter if the players around you don’t want you to succeed or you don’t put in the effort needed to be an NFL QB. Aaron Rodgers can be a dick of a person, but those that get in his inner circle go all out for him. Contrast that to a Jeff George where his OL wanted him to get sacked hard.
Thanks Mike.
I do not know if this is an actual term(EQ) used in analysis of players by scouts as I do not remember seeing it before or if I did and I just glossed it over.
But seems like a fancy term for saying "it" factor.
But ok another mystery solved.
One thing on Williams - he is 21. Has his physical tools mostly in place, no doubt. His maturity level may just be lagging - happens often in men. Some people are leaders at an early age, others gain it with time, experience and confidence. Others never get it.
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In comment 16404061 section125 said:
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In comment 16404059 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
In comment 16404054 section125 said:
Quote:
what is EQ?
It means emotional intelligence and is kind of a twist on IQ.
So the modern way of saying calm under fire...doesn't get rattled.
It is more than that. If you read the post it also encompasses accountability and leadership traits, work ethic, etc. To put it another way, the tools do not matter if the players around you don’t want you to succeed or you don’t put in the effort needed to be an NFL QB. Aaron Rodgers can be a dick of a person, but those that get in his inner circle go all out for him. Contrast that to a Jeff George where his OL wanted him to get sacked hard.
Thanks Mike.
I do not know if this is an actual term(EQ) used in analysis of players by scouts as I do not remember seeing it before or if I did and I just glossed it over.
But seems like a fancy term for saying "it" factor.
But ok another mystery solved.
One thing on Williams - he is 21. Has his physical tools mostly in place, no doubt. His maturity level may just be lagging - happens often in men. Some people are leaders at an early age, others gain it with time, experience and confidence. Others never get it.
This is 100pct true. And the challenge is you can't gauge a kid's potential progression in terms of that. People like to point to Williams' meltdown on the sidelines as a negative. I get it, but it also shows that he gives a shit about winning, which should not be undervalued. We've all seen so many athletes that had lots of talent and didn't really give a shit about winning.
It's another reason why I have a soft spot for Penix Jr in this draft. If you compared him when he was first at Indiana and now at Washington at 23, he's been through a lot and shown a ton of perseverance and seems just mature in the way a person who has overcome adversity can be.
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...the one thing that sticks out is seeking solace in his mother's arms. I don't want to make too much of a deal of that, but it does raise a question to me about his EQ.
This bothered me too...I don't know if this is fair but my first thought when I saw that was that he knew the cameras would pick it up and it was a calculated move to keep the attention on him after he got outplayed by Penix, who was also a Heisman candidate and possible rival for elite NFL draft status.
I had similar skepticism about this:
Stunts like that are why I think Williams is likely not on the Giants board. Mara would never accept him as the face of the franchise.
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...the one thing that sticks out is seeking solace in his mother's arms. I don't want to make too much of a deal of that, but it does raise a question to me about his EQ.
This bothered me too...I don't know if this is fair but my first thought when I saw that was that he knew the cameras would pick it up and it was a calculated move to keep the attention on him after he got outplayed by Penix, who was also a Heisman candidate and possible rival for elite NFL draft status.
I had similar skepticism about this:
You're thinking that McCarthy's pregame ritual is more a calculated move than a real pregame routine? Or are there other issues you have with this?
Pardon my ignore here if you will, but is there any psychological evidence that a male, high profile collegiate athlete who seeks a mother's solace after a game is somehow more likely to have an EQ deficit?
I had similar skepticism about this:
McCarthy had depression issues in high school. So, he turned to meditation to manage it. I don't have a problem with that.
I don't like McCarthy as a lottery pick, but this isn't an issue with me.
Maybe he'll land on a team will show patience and give him 6 or 7 years while they fire every GM and coach they have until they build a team around him.
That depends. Would he be stuck with a brain that can't even read a pop warner defense like DJ?
Do you really want Justin Fields? Really want him?
No, I didn't think so.
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why not trade a pick to Chicago for Fields. Cheaper and you already know what you are getting.
Do you really want Justin Fields? Really want him?
No, I didn't think so.
It's unbelievable, isn't it?
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In comment 16404061 section125 said:
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In comment 16404059 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
In comment 16404054 section125 said:
Quote:
what is EQ?
It means emotional intelligence and is kind of a twist on IQ.
So the modern way of saying calm under fire...doesn't get rattled.
It is more than that. If you read the post it also encompasses accountability and leadership traits, work ethic, etc. To put it another way, the tools do not matter if the players around you don’t want you to succeed or you don’t put in the effort needed to be an NFL QB. Aaron Rodgers can be a dick of a person, but those that get in his inner circle go all out for him. Contrast that to a Jeff George where his OL wanted him to get sacked hard.
Thanks Mike.
I do not know if this is an actual term(EQ) used in analysis of players by scouts as I do not remember seeing it before or if I did and I just glossed it over.
But seems like a fancy term for saying "it" factor.
But ok another mystery solved.
One thing on Williams - he is 21. Has his physical tools mostly in place, no doubt. His maturity level may just be lagging - happens often in men. Some people are leaders at an early age, others gain it with time, experience and confidence. Others never get it.
Eli Apple
If all it took to be a decent NFL QB was being nice and a hard worker, NYG wouldn't be in the mess they are with Dan Jones. NYG brass/coaches seem to really like him as a person despite him not being able to cut it performance wise.
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I had similar skepticism about this:
McCarthy had depression issues in high school. So, he turned to meditation to manage it. I don't have a problem with that.
I don't like McCarthy as a lottery pick, but this isn't an issue with me.
I don't have any issues with meditating. Doing it over and over in a very visible place at a time when the cameras are watching...I don't know...
Fields is more expensive. Much more. If you trade for him you're going to pay him.
Eric recently talked about the success of QB prospects being largely tied to what's between the ears. Any reasonable talent evaluator would have to agree. You can't measure this on highlight film. And you can have all the arm talent in the world and fail because of not having it where it counts.
And Williams DOES have all the arm talent in the world. He is an A+++ prospect based on arm talent alone. But arm talent by itself is perhaps the worst predictor of NFL success that there is.
There are two basic types of intelligence. There is IQ and EQ. I don't know enough about Williams to make a certain judgement on either. I don't think he's an unintelligent man in terms of IQ.
But I think EQ is so underrated in QB prospect evaluation. That position demands high EQ. I have questions here. How does a QB respond to failure? How is he as a leader of men? When the stakes are immense and dealing with intense stress (often in the physical form of pressure), can he stay composed and execute in an intense environment? Can you take accountability for your own mistakes and be humble when you cost your team, or will you deflect blame?
I would say I have serious doubts about Williams' EQ. Off the field, he seems to me to be self-absorbed in his own perceived greatness. He didn't deliver often in high-stress situations.
If you compare him to Daniels in terms of composure under pressure, Daniels is undoubted superior, against tougher competition. Failure drives the greats to be better, it fuels them to improve. Failure angers them, but pushes them. With Mahomes, the one thing that sticks out is seeking solace in his mother's arms. I don't want to make too much of a deal of that, but it does raise a question to me about his EQ.
Think about Eli's composure in throughout his NFL career in big moments. I think about that 2011 season NFCCG against SF. To me that was Eli's greatest game of his career, because he was hit relentlessly and under intense pressure, and kept his composure and continued to execute and ultimately won that game.
Ernie Accorsi called it "the IT factor". I think what he was talking about is high EQ. Eli had that. The great ones combine high on-field and off-field IQ, EQ, and physical talent. I have zero doubts in Williams' physical talent. But that places in a distant third to the two former categories as predictors of future NFL success. And those categories are also the hardest to measure for any QB prospect. In a nutshell, this is why so many highly rated QB prospects don't pan out in the NFL, because so much weight is given to more definable measurables such as arm talent and athletic ability, when those things are nice to haves compared to a QB with high IQ and EQ. This is why a guy like Brock Purdy, who was not an impressive QB prospect when it came to physical and athletic makeup has had the success he has had. He has terrific IQ and EQ, that has manifested itself on the field. It's why Tom Brady was a 6th round draft pick that became the GOAT...it's his elite IQ and EQ.
With Williams, to me it seems that true believers like Producer take all of his physical ability and project him to be a superstar QB. Where my concerns are about maturity, on-field IQ and EQ. I'm not saying I'm right. As I said, these are the hardest attributes to quantify for prospects. But if I compare him to Daniels, I get a better comfort level in composure and maturity...signs that he is superior "between the ears", and this is to say nothing about how he compares to the other QB prospects in this draft.
Good post that reflects many of my sentiments as well.
I watched the video, and with all due respect, I think Sy has built a bit of a straw man here. I don’t know that anyone is guaranteeing that Caleb will be as good as Mahomes is in the NFL, just that they (we) see similarities in their games. As others have noted, comparing Williams USC tape to Mahomes NFL tape is simply not a fair comparison. And if Sy wants to dish on the pathetic Pac 12 defenses (no argument there), wait until he sees how bad the Big 12 defenses were that Mahomes played against.
The only apt comparisons right now between Williams and Mahomes are in their college tape. Comparing Caleb to a 7-year NFL veteran who may go down as the GOAT just isn’t a fair fight.
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may want to watch the video before commenting.
I watched the video, and with all due respect, I think Sy has built a bit of a straw man here. I don’t know that anyone is guaranteeing that Caleb will be as good as Mahomes is in the NFL, just that they (we) see similarities in their games. As others have noted, comparing Williams USC tape to Mahomes NFL tape is simply not a fair comparison. And if Sy wants to dish on the pathetic Pac 12 defenses (no argument there), wait until he sees how bad the Big 12 defenses were that Mahomes played against.
The only apt comparisons right now between Williams and Mahomes are in their college tape. Comparing Caleb to a 7-year NFL veteran who may go down as the GOAT just isn’t a fair fight.
I guess you have not met Producer Manhattan
Cheaper? Maybe in the picks needed to get him, but not in dollars owed. The decision to pick up Fields’ 5th year is due next month. After that, he is going to likely get a major payday.
I’m not an advocate for trading up to get Williams. The Bears will (and should) ask for a king’s ransom that would make their heist of Carolina last year look like a penny swap. But having a QB on a full rookie contract is a big fucking deal, especially for a team like NYG that is a few years away. A team like ATL or Pitt makes more sense for Fields, since they are closer to contention.
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may want to watch the video before commenting.
I watched the video, and with all due respect, I think Sy has built a bit of a straw man here. I don’t know that anyone is guaranteeing that Caleb will be as good as Mahomes is in the NFL, just that they (we) see similarities in their games. As others have noted, comparing Williams USC tape to Mahomes NFL tape is simply not a fair comparison. And if Sy wants to dish on the pathetic Pac 12 defenses (no argument there), wait until he sees how bad the Big 12 defenses were that Mahomes played against.
The only apt comparisons right now between Williams and Mahomes are in their college tape. Comparing Caleb to a 7-year NFL veteran who may go down as the GOAT just isn’t a fair fight.
It is a straw man. exactly right. Nobody is saying Williams will be Mahomes. It's a silly contention.
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I had similar skepticism about this:
McCarthy had depression issues in high school. So, he turned to meditation to manage it. I don't have a problem with that.
I don't like McCarthy as a lottery pick, but this isn't an issue with me.
It’s the furthest thing from an issue for me. He meditates, so the fuck what? I g7ess you could say he should do it in the locker room, but at the end of the day, who cares?
I’m only slightly more concerned with Williams jumping into his mother’s arms. Yes, teams should investigate his maturity level and make sure he can handle adversity, but this event is so overblown it’s bordering on ridiculous.
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...the one thing that sticks out is seeking solace in his mother's arms. I don't want to make too much of a deal of that, but it does raise a question to me about his EQ.
This bothered me too...I don't know if this is fair but my first thought when I saw that was that he knew the cameras would pick it up and it was a calculated move to keep the attention on him after he got outplayed by Penix, who was also a Heisman candidate and possible rival for elite NFL draft status.
I had similar skepticism about this:
Stunts like that are why I think Williams is likely not on the Giants board. Mara would never accept him as the face of the franchise.
If John Mara is going to be that thin-skinned, we are in for decades of more suckitude. Yeah, let’s pass on a guy because he cried once. Larry Bird bawled his eyes out after losing the NCAACG to Magic and Michigan State. I guess Red Auerbach should have passed on him too.
How so? I was directly quoting the video I linked and posted it because I've seen many here directly comp Williams to Mahomes. Maybe watch the video?
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In comment 16403557 Eric from BBI said:
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may want to watch the video before commenting.
I watched the video, and with all due respect, I think Sy has built a bit of a straw man here. I don’t know that anyone is guaranteeing that Caleb will be as good as Mahomes is in the NFL, just that they (we) see similarities in their games. As others have noted, comparing Williams USC tape to Mahomes NFL tape is simply not a fair comparison. And if Sy wants to dish on the pathetic Pac 12 defenses (no argument there), wait until he sees how bad the Big 12 defenses were that Mahomes played against.
The only apt comparisons right now between Williams and Mahomes are in their college tape. Comparing Caleb to a 7-year NFL veteran who may go down as the GOAT just isn’t a fair fight.
I guess you have not met Producer Manhattan
With all due respect, I haven’t seen him say that. He does say that Williams is an under talent, which is defensible.
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In comment 16404055 Go Terps said:
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I had similar skepticism about this:
McCarthy had depression issues in high school. So, he turned to meditation to manage it. I don't have a problem with that.
I don't like McCarthy as a lottery pick, but this isn't an issue with me.
It’s the furthest thing from an issue for me. He meditates, so the fuck what? I g7ess you could say he should do it in the locker room, but at the end of the day, who cares?
I’m only slightly more concerned with Williams jumping into his mother’s arms. Yes, teams should investigate his maturity level and make sure he can handle adversity, but this event is so overblown it’s bordering on ridiculous.
I'm not speaking about Sy, at all, but a lot of the anti-Williams backlash is a bunch of macho keyboard warriors who have their manhood threatened because they saw him cry once or heard a story he painted his fingernails once. Never mind almost every reputable analyst believes he has otherworldly talent to excel in the NFL. Because he is a little unorthodox they have made up a story he can't hack it in the NFL, based solely on their stupid biases. People who fall into this trap just sound like pathetic jerks. I don't care if CW wears a dress, if he's a great QB he can play for my team. It's as if these idiots haven't seen players cry on the field before... only like every playoff game has players showing emotion.
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In comment 16404185 Section331 said:
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In comment 16403557 Eric from BBI said:
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may want to watch the video before commenting.
I watched the video, and with all due respect, I think Sy has built a bit of a straw man here. I don’t know that anyone is guaranteeing that Caleb will be as good as Mahomes is in the NFL, just that they (we) see similarities in their games. As others have noted, comparing Williams USC tape to Mahomes NFL tape is simply not a fair comparison. And if Sy wants to dish on the pathetic Pac 12 defenses (no argument there), wait until he sees how bad the Big 12 defenses were that Mahomes played against.
The only apt comparisons right now between Williams and Mahomes are in their college tape. Comparing Caleb to a 7-year NFL veteran who may go down as the GOAT just isn’t a fair fight.
I guess you have not met Producer Manhattan
With all due respect, I haven’t seen him say that. He does say that Williams is an under talent, which is defensible.
Damn autocorrect, uber talent, not under talent.
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In comment 16404185 Section331 said:
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In comment 16403557 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
may want to watch the video before commenting.
I watched the video, and with all due respect, I think Sy has built a bit of a straw man here. I don’t know that anyone is guaranteeing that Caleb will be as good as Mahomes is in the NFL, just that they (we) see similarities in their games. As others have noted, comparing Williams USC tape to Mahomes NFL tape is simply not a fair comparison. And if Sy wants to dish on the pathetic Pac 12 defenses (no argument there), wait until he sees how bad the Big 12 defenses were that Mahomes played against.
The only apt comparisons right now between Williams and Mahomes are in their college tape. Comparing Caleb to a 7-year NFL veteran who may go down as the GOAT just isn’t a fair fight.
I guess you have not met Producer Manhattan
With all due respect, I haven’t seen him say that. He does say that Williams is an under talent, which is defensible.
He has said that, at worst, Williams is a Top 10 NFL QB and has likened parts of his game to Mahomes, Elway, etc.
I’m only slightly more concerned with Williams jumping into his mother’s arms. Yes, teams should investigate his maturity level and make sure he can handle adversity, but this event is so overblown it’s bordering on ridiculous.
I agree. He didn't go into the stands and confront/attack a patron. CW hugged his mom. In a way, it humanizes him.
The nerve...
But the social media mob want people to act a certain way. And if you don't, the hammer is dropped. It's just the nature of the beast.
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In comment 16404084 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16404055 Go Terps said:
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I had similar skepticism about this:
McCarthy had depression issues in high school. So, he turned to meditation to manage it. I don't have a problem with that.
I don't like McCarthy as a lottery pick, but this isn't an issue with me.
It’s the furthest thing from an issue for me. He meditates, so the fuck what? I g7ess you could say he should do it in the locker room, but at the end of the day, who cares?
I’m only slightly more concerned with Williams jumping into his mother’s arms. Yes, teams should investigate his maturity level and make sure he can handle adversity, but this event is so overblown it’s bordering on ridiculous.
I'm not speaking about Sy, at all, but a lot of the anti-Williams backlash is a bunch of macho keyboard warriors who have their manhood threatened because they saw him cry once or heard a story he painted his fingernails once. Never mind almost every reputable analyst believes he has otherworldly talent to excel in the NFL. Because he is a little unorthodox they have made up a story he can't hack it in the NFL, based solely on their stupid biases. People who fall into this trap just sound like pathetic jerks. I don't care if CW wears a dress, if he's a great QB he can play for my team. It's as if these idiots haven't seen players cry on the field before... only like every playoff game has players showing emotion.
I could care less about the crying to his mom thing, I don't consider that a factor. I just question his mind based on his stats, tape and overall demeanor.
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In comment 16404187 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16404185 Section331 said:
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In comment 16403557 Eric from BBI said:
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may want to watch the video before commenting.
I watched the video, and with all due respect, I think Sy has built a bit of a straw man here. I don’t know that anyone is guaranteeing that Caleb will be as good as Mahomes is in the NFL, just that they (we) see similarities in their games. As others have noted, comparing Williams USC tape to Mahomes NFL tape is simply not a fair comparison. And if Sy wants to dish on the pathetic Pac 12 defenses (no argument there), wait until he sees how bad the Big 12 defenses were that Mahomes played against.
The only apt comparisons right now between Williams and Mahomes are in their college tape. Comparing Caleb to a 7-year NFL veteran who may go down as the GOAT just isn’t a fair fight.
I guess you have not met Producer Manhattan
With all due respect, I haven’t seen him say that. He does say that Williams is an under talent, which is defensible.
He has said that, at worst, Williams is a Top 10 NFL QB and has likened parts of his game to Mahomes, Elway, etc.
No. I've said all over this board that any player can be a bust.
His height is definitely a factor, but every QB has bad games. At least ND had a good D, go check Mahomes stats v. Iowa St his Jr year at TX Tech, Iowa St D gave up 450 yards passing per game that year.
CW has played at a place where no one really cares about football
That is the question I would have. I think Daniels can do almost everything CW can do. With Maye all you hear about is he is big, athletic, can run, etc. never hear how he actually plays QB. What makes him better than Trubisky or Howell as a prospect
CW has played at a place where no one really cares about football
That is the question I would have. I think Daniels can do almost everything CW can do. With Maye all you hear about is he is big, athletic, can run, etc. never hear how he actually plays QB. What makes him better than Trubisky or Howell as a prospect
You don't think Los Angeles cares about the USC Trojans? You don't think Oklahoma cares about the Sooners?
This New York media thing is a canard to dismiss players you don't like. You haven't a clue who will or won't have a problem with NY media. You don't have a crystal ball and you're not a mind reader.
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I’m only slightly more concerned with Williams jumping into his mother’s arms. Yes, teams should investigate his maturity level and make sure he can handle adversity, but this event is so overblown it’s bordering on ridiculous.
I agree. He didn't go into the stands and confront/attack a patron. CW hugged his mom. In a way, it humanizes him.
The nerve...
But the social media mob want people to act a certain way. And if you don't, the hammer is dropped. It's just the nature of the beast.
I could care less about the hugging thing and agree I think it shows a human element. Not so big on the fingernail thing, but whatever. I'm just not sure he has it between the ears on the field or the "IT factor". I could very well be wrong on that, we shall see. That all said, all the physical tools are obviously there...
The point is that Sy knows more than most here about what he sees from a player.
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In comment 16404198 Section331 said:
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I’m only slightly more concerned with Williams jumping into his mother’s arms. Yes, teams should investigate his maturity level and make sure he can handle adversity, but this event is so overblown it’s bordering on ridiculous.
I agree. He didn't go into the stands and confront/attack a patron. CW hugged his mom. In a way, it humanizes him.
The nerve...
But the social media mob want people to act a certain way. And if you don't, the hammer is dropped. It's just the nature of the beast.
I could care less about the hugging thing and agree I think it shows a human element. Not so big on the fingernail thing, but whatever. I'm just not sure he has it between the ears on the field or the "IT factor". I could very well be wrong on that, we shall see. That all said, all the physical tools are obviously there...
But every analyst shows on video how he is a gamer who plays smart football and demonstrates a high football IQ. He the toughest on this class in the pocket, which shows courage and football smarts. So where are you getting he "doesn't have it between the ears"? Who says this? Where did you get this idea? How did you come to this conclusion?
But every analyst shows on video how he is a gamer who plays smart football and demonstrates a high football IQ. He the toughest on this class in the pocket, which shows courage and football smarts. So where are you getting he "doesn't have it between the ears"? Who says this? Where did you get this idea? How did you come to this conclusion?
I guess my "I could be wrong" comment wasn't enough to show that I may very well be wrong in that assessment as I am indeed no expert, and even expert analysts, such as the ones you cite, never bate 1.000 and can be wrong.
USC vs ND - ( New Window )
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In comment 16404207 Section331 said:
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In comment 16404187 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16404185 Section331 said:
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In comment 16403557 Eric from BBI said:
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may want to watch the video before commenting.
I watched the video, and with all due respect, I think Sy has built a bit of a straw man here. I don’t know that anyone is guaranteeing that Caleb will be as good as Mahomes is in the NFL, just that they (we) see similarities in their games. As others have noted, comparing Williams USC tape to Mahomes NFL tape is simply not a fair comparison. And if Sy wants to dish on the pathetic Pac 12 defenses (no argument there), wait until he sees how bad the Big 12 defenses were that Mahomes played against.
The only apt comparisons right now between Williams and Mahomes are in their college tape. Comparing Caleb to a 7-year NFL veteran who may go down as the GOAT just isn’t a fair fight.
I guess you have not met Producer Manhattan
With all due respect, I haven’t seen him say that. He does say that Williams is an under talent, which is defensible.
He has said that, at worst, Williams is a Top 10 NFL QB and has likened parts of his game to Mahomes, Elway, etc.
No. I've said all over this board that any player can be a bust.
Well you did say his floor was a top 10qb
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In comment 16404219 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16404207 Section331 said:
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In comment 16404187 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16404185 Section331 said:
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In comment 16403557 Eric from BBI said:
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may want to watch the video before commenting.
I watched the video, and with all due respect, I think Sy has built a bit of a straw man here. I don’t know that anyone is guaranteeing that Caleb will be as good as Mahomes is in the NFL, just that they (we) see similarities in their games. As others have noted, comparing Williams USC tape to Mahomes NFL tape is simply not a fair comparison. And if Sy wants to dish on the pathetic Pac 12 defenses (no argument there), wait until he sees how bad the Big 12 defenses were that Mahomes played against.
The only apt comparisons right now between Williams and Mahomes are in their college tape. Comparing Caleb to a 7-year NFL veteran who may go down as the GOAT just isn’t a fair fight.
I guess you have not met Producer Manhattan
With all due respect, I haven’t seen him say that. He does say that Williams is an under talent, which is defensible.
He has said that, at worst, Williams is a Top 10 NFL QB and has likened parts of his game to Mahomes, Elway, etc.
No. I've said all over this board that any player can be a bust.
Well you did say his floor was a top 10qb
No. I've said all over this board that any player can be a bust.
Well you did say his floor was a top 10qb
Let's try that again
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The NFL defenses will be indescribably more challenging than say the Notre Dame defense.
His height is definitely a factor, but every QB has bad games. At least ND had a good D, go check Mahomes stats v. Iowa St his Jr year at TX Tech, Iowa St D gave up 450 yards passing per game that year.
In his first 5 games of the year vs. San Jose St, Nevada, Stanford, Arizona St and Colorado he had 1600 yards and 21 tds against laughing stock defenses.
In the following 7 games he had 9 tds and 4 ints and 5 fumbles against mostly average defenses (sans UCLA, ND and maybe Utah). Without the Washington game included (they gave up crazy amounts of points all year) he had 6 tds 4ints and 4 fumbles in those 6 games. He did not play well and did not show a strong mentality in response to the pressure of winning the pac12 and how he crumbled after they were likely out of contention.
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In comment 16404228 BleedBlue46 said:
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The NFL defenses will be indescribably more challenging than say the Notre Dame defense.
His height is definitely a factor, but every QB has bad games. At least ND had a good D, go check Mahomes stats v. Iowa St his Jr year at TX Tech, Iowa St D gave up 450 yards passing per game that year.
In his first 5 games of the year vs. San Jose St, Nevada, Stanford, Arizona St and Colorado he had 1600 yards and 21 tds against laughing stock defenses.
In the following 7 games he had 9 tds and 4 ints and 5 fumbles against mostly average defenses (sans UCLA, ND and maybe Utah). Without the Washington game included (they gave up crazy amounts of points all year) he had 6 tds 4ints and 4 fumbles in those 6 games. He did not play well and did not show a strong mentality in response to the pressure of winning the pac12 and how he crumbled after they were likely out of contention.
I didnt realize his year was that bad. Those are VERY pedestrian numbers
USC was lucky to beat Arizona in triple overtime or else CW would have gone 1-6 during his slump of bad play with a questionable mentality.
The questions about his mind are not related to his finger nails or crying to his mom. The questions are related to the tape, stats and his overall demeanor.
USC was lucky to beat Arizona in triple overtime or else CW would have gone 1-6 during his slump of bad play with a questionable mentality.
The questions about his mind are not related to his finger nails or crying to his mom. The questions are related to the tape, stats and his overall demeanor.
I really like Daniels, so don't get me wrong here, but he did have a top 2/3 WR to throw to along with another first round WR. That said, I'd be more than happy if Giants drafted Daniels. I also agree with your sentiment, re: Williams.
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After removing the games against Army, Georgia st, and Grambling st had 26 tds passing 7 tds rushing 4 ints. 2850 yards throwing, 1000 yards rushing with 2 fumbles.
USC was lucky to beat Arizona in triple overtime or else CW would have gone 1-6 during his slump of bad play with a questionable mentality.
The questions about his mind are not related to his finger nails or crying to his mom. The questions are related to the tape, stats and his overall demeanor.
I really like Daniels, so don't get me wrong here, but he did have a top 2/3 WR to throw to along with another first round WR. That said, I'd be more than happy if Giants drafted Daniels. I also agree with your sentiment, re: Williams.
Of course Brian Thomas and Malik Nabers are uber talented, but this was in the SEC, against defenses in a whole different league than those CW faced. I'd rather have JD than CW, I have an opposite sentiment about JD's mentality vs CW's.
Of course Brian Thomas and Malik Nabers are uber talented, but this was in the SEC, against defenses in a whole different league than those CW faced. I'd rather have JD than CW, I have an opposite sentiment about JD's mentality vs CW's.
Valid, and I agree, just throwing that out there haha. For me I'd be more than happy with Daniels, but if not Daniels I'd want JJ/Maye.
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Of course Brian Thomas and Malik Nabers are uber talented, but this was in the SEC, against defenses in a whole different league than those CW faced. I'd rather have JD than CW, I have an opposite sentiment about JD's mentality vs CW's.
Valid, and I agree, just throwing that out there haha. For me I'd be more than happy with Daniels, but if not Daniels I'd want JJ/Maye.
I agree. I want JD, JJM, DM in order of preference. One will be within reach at minimum.
Ok
Ok
His points are that they are completely different and drawing comparisons are lazy and ridiculous basically. His comps are closer to Kyler Murray and Baker Mayfield than Mahomes. I think that's very valid. If you watch the video, it brings up some very valid points questioning CW's mental game that have been mentioned here before. He isn't nearly as generational as the media hypes him up to be, while still being a very good qb prospect.
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In comment 16404084 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16404055 Go Terps said:
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I had similar skepticism about this:
McCarthy had depression issues in high school. So, he turned to meditation to manage it. I don't have a problem with that.
I don't like McCarthy as a lottery pick, but this isn't an issue with me.
It’s the furthest thing from an issue for me. He meditates, so the fuck what? I g7ess you could say he should do it in the locker room, but at the end of the day, who cares?
I’m only slightly more concerned with Williams jumping into his mother’s arms. Yes, teams should investigate his maturity level and make sure he can handle adversity, but this event is so overblown it’s bordering on ridiculous.
I'm not speaking about Sy, at all, but a lot of the anti-Williams backlash is a bunch of macho keyboard warriors who have their manhood threatened because they saw him cry once or heard a story he painted his fingernails once. Never mind almost every reputable analyst believes he has otherworldly talent to excel in the NFL. Because he is a little unorthodox they have made up a story he can't hack it in the NFL, based solely on their stupid biases. People who fall into this trap just sound like pathetic jerks. I don't care if CW wears a dress, if he's a great QB he can play for my team. It's as if these idiots haven't seen players cry on the field before... only like every playoff game has players showing emotion.
I only brought up the momma thing as an example of what is a maybe piece of evidence towards the bigger question mark of his EQ. I did say I didn't want to make a big deal of it, because by itself, yes, it's ridiculous to make any conclusions of that.
Because there is no combine for EQ though, if you are trying as an observer to evaluate a QB prospect, there is so little to try to glean from in this regard, so it's fair to question the things you do see occasionally.
I totally agree that the fact he cried and hugged his mom isn't a big deal in isolation at all.
I've acknowledged I don't know enough about him as a person to make conclusions on his EQ. But what I would rather see after a big loss is thinking about his teammates at least as much as himself. Winning together is one thing, but losing together is just as important, if you know what I mean by that. Being a leader when you're in the valley as a team...that is the mark of a high EQ person. Being responsible and accountable to them for your own contributions to the loss.
And to be fair, he very may well have done ALL of this, after he shared this particular moment with his mom, which is ok.
But this young man does seem to be a big fan of "me", based on my casual observation, doesn't mean I'm right.
To tie it all together, remember the celebration on the USC TD that they had in their bowl game? "Now we're a team!" If that was said because of an underlying feeling of the team that the QB was all about himself and not the team, that's a major major red flag. We don't know for sure if that's the case. Another thing to not blow out of proportion. But a high EQ leader is going to at least portray, "it's all about us[ in this locker room," even if inwardly he doesn't really believe that.
Yes, you must have physical ability as a baseline to be successful in the NFL. But if he is a low EQ guy, a me-first guy, a ego-centric guy, he's not going to make it, no matter how physically gifted he is. That position demands so much more than any other position on the football field.
Patrick Mahomes isn't great because of his fantastic arm talent or that he can throw from crazy arm angles or that he has terrific football instincts. All of those things contribute to his greatness, yes. But he's great because he's driven, he's a leader, his teammates believe in him, they trust him, and he drives his team to be great. He has both high football (and I suspect overall) IQ, and high EQ. Combine those factors with his God-given natural and physical gifts, and it makes him a champion.
The NFL is littered with highly-drafted, highly-physically-gifted QB busts because of low EQ. The two that immediately come to mind are JaMarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf. I also mentioned Zach Wilson as another. We saw in recent years Wilson blow up at reporters and deflect blame to his teammates.
But make no mistake, all of these guys had tremendous, top-shelf physical NFL gifts.
If there is a deficit there with Williams, perhaps it will come with more maturity, and perhaps not. Someone who may have a narcissistic personality, I would bet that it will be very difficult for that maturity to come before it's too late.
I didn't mention this before in the earlier post, but translating all of this to the football field, when I have watched Williams, he does seem (to me) to play panicky under duress. The fumbling is a manifestation of this. Sometimes, his amazing physical talent has bailed him and his team out in those situations. But as Sy has said, perhaps termed differently, that backyard football style of play will be difficult to be successful with in the NFL. The margins are smaller, the players are bigger, faster, stronger.
Then I look at Daniels, and I'm blown away. His metrics under pressure are better, but casual observation, he seems to have really strong football instincts that serve him well when everything isn't perfect. Just in the way he runs, he naturally feels the leverage of the defense and the blockers and just cuts the right way so often. His accuracy under duress I've been impressed with. His composure I'm impressed with.
As a QB, I feel more comfortable with Daniels in IQ and EQ than I do with Williams. Perhaps this is unfair and I have it completely wrong. But that's my personal feeling having watched both players.
Out of all the top 6 players, and I haven't watched nearly enough of Nix, Penix, Maye and McCarthy, but I do have the most questions regarding composure with Williams than I do with any of them. And any of them can still bust because of totally unrelated factors to IQ and EQ. But if I'm in an NFL front office, evaluating a QB prospect on IQ and EQ has to be paramount. I don't remember who said it, but the quote was, with respect to draft prospects busting, "You don't miss on the player, you miss on the person." That is so true.
I would absolutely take a less-physically-gifted QB with a sterling mental makeup than I would an uber-physical talent who doesn't have it between the ears. With this position, the stakes are so high, particularly drafting in the first round, and that QB has to be an extension of the head coach in the locker room, in the huddle and between the snap and the whistle. You have to at once be a leader of men and be humble enough to take an out-sized share of the blame when things go poorly, and be humble enough to be coachable and completely buy-in to your coaching staff.
I see what you see in the talent-level of Williams. And yet, I'm not there with him.
“It’s a good positive moment. I still think more so for the team than me personally,” Moss said. “These six weeks since UCLA weren’t about any individual. They were about us, the people who wanted to be here and play this game and wanted to come together.”
^Backup QB from USC that won (and he dominated) after the Bowl win. The UCLA game? Williams' last game
“It’s a good positive moment. I still think more so for the team than me personally,” Moss said. “These six weeks since UCLA weren’t about any individual. They were about us, the people who wanted to be here and play this game and wanted to come together.”
^Backup QB from USC that won (and he dominated) after the Bowl win. The UCLA game? Williams' last game
This backs up what you're saying.
Link - ( New Window )
“It’s a good positive moment. I still think more so for the team than me personally,” Moss said. “These six weeks since UCLA weren’t about any individual. They were about us, the people who wanted to be here and play this game and wanted to come together.”
^Backup QB from USC that won (and he dominated) after the Bowl win. The UCLA game? Williams' last game
Sy, don't let it bother you. If people are not intelligent enough to get when you are writing "read between the lines" you are not going to get an honest answer out of them anyway.
“It’s a good positive moment. I still think more so for the team than me personally,” Moss said. “These six weeks since UCLA weren’t about any individual. They were about us, the people who wanted to be here and play this game and wanted to come together.”
^Backup QB from USC that won (and he dominated) after the Bowl win. The UCLA game? Williams' last game
Damn, Sy, that's a hell of a quote speaking directly to my concerns with CW. I'm assuming you share this concern with him?
A comparable between college prospect Murray and Williams is a compliment to Williams. A comparable between professional Murray and Williams is also complementary.
I would absolutely take a less-physically-gifted QB with a sterling mental makeup than I would an uber-physical talent who doesn't have it between the ears. With this position, the stakes are so high, particularly drafting in the first round, and that QB has to be an extension of the head coach in the locker room, in the huddle and between the snap and the whistle. You have to at once be a leader of men and be humble enough to take an out-sized share of the blame when things go poorly, and be humble enough to be coachable and completely buy-in to your coaching staff.
I see what you see in the talent-level of Williams. And yet, I'm not there with him.
On the other hand, here are first-day investment examples of what you like:
As far as I'm concerned, we took a less gifted player in Jones who apparently has all of intangibles.
The Jets invested a high pick in Chad Pennington. Great guy who was also a Rhodes Scholar candidate. But he had a rag arm and limited physical skills overall.
The Steelers took Pickett a few years ago. Small hands, limited arm, but also a guy with good intangibles.
Chiefs selected a great guy in Alex Smith. Had all of the attributes you admire. But he was limited physically, too.
Denver made a first-round investment in Mr. Leadership - Tom Tebow. And outside of his bully-ball ability, he was mostly a joke throwing the ball.
Minnesota took a first-round flyer on Teddy Bridgewater. Bridgewater was another high character guy. But limited arm talent.
At the end of the day, and I'm sure you agree, it takes more art than science to figure out the QB position...
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But you can read this:
“It’s a good positive moment. I still think more so for the team than me personally,” Moss said. “These six weeks since UCLA weren’t about any individual. They were about us, the people who wanted to be here and play this game and wanted to come together.”
^Backup QB from USC that won (and he dominated) after the Bowl win. The UCLA game? Williams' last game
This backs up what you're saying. Link - ( New Window )
This doesn't meet even the basic threshold of hearsay. You're way smarter than this.
There are no perfect prospects - Caleb Williams included.
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In comment 16404376 Sy'56 said:
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But you can read this:
“It’s a good positive moment. I still think more so for the team than me personally,” Moss said. “These six weeks since UCLA weren’t about any individual. They were about us, the people who wanted to be here and play this game and wanted to come together.”
^Backup QB from USC that won (and he dominated) after the Bowl win. The UCLA game? Williams' last game
This backs up what you're saying. Link - ( New Window )
This doesn't meet even the basic threshold of hearsay. You're way smarter than this.
This isn't a courtroom, it's gambling. And stuff like this has to be part of the overall eval for a front office. It doesn't mean anything definitive, but ignore it as if it doesn't matter? It's a point of concern.
This doesn't meet even the basic threshold of hearsay. You're way smarter than this.
On the flip side...
Moss thanking CW... - ( New Window )
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I would absolutely take a less-physically-gifted QB with a sterling mental makeup than I would an uber-physical talent who doesn't have it between the ears. With this position, the stakes are so high, particularly drafting in the first round, and that QB has to be an extension of the head coach in the locker room, in the huddle and between the snap and the whistle. You have to at once be a leader of men and be humble enough to take an out-sized share of the blame when things go poorly, and be humble enough to be coachable and completely buy-in to your coaching staff.
I see what you see in the talent-level of Williams. And yet, I'm not there with him.
On the other hand, here are first-day investment examples of what you like:
As far as I'm concerned, we took a less gifted player in Jones who apparently has all of intangibles.
The Jets invested a high pick in Chad Pennington. Great guy who was also a Rhodes Scholar candidate. But he had a rag arm and limited physical skills overall.
The Steelers took Pickett a few years ago. Small hands, limited arm, but also a guy with good intangibles.
Chiefs selected a great guy in Alex Smith. Had all of the attributes you admire. But he was limited physically, too.
Denver made a first-round investment in Mr. Leadership - Tom Tebow. And outside of his bully-ball ability, he was mostly a joke throwing the ball.
Minnesota took a first-round flyer on Teddy Bridgewater. Bridgewater was another high character guy. But limited arm talent.
At the end of the day, and I'm sure you agree, it takes more art than science to figure out the QB position...
EQ isn't IQ. It's not just doing all the things right in your brain. EQ relates to how well someone plays under pressure, reacts to adversity, how their mind works, it's far beyond being a role model athlete and having a high IQ.
Would you bless us taking him?
There are no perfect prospects - Caleb Williams included.
The thing is, if it doesn't show up in internet mock drafts, Producer isn't interested.
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If you want to be Caleb Williams's white knight, go ahead.
There are no perfect prospects - Caleb Williams included.
The thing is, if it doesn't show up in internet mock drafts, Producer isn't interested.
give em the business end of a blender will ya!!
my all time favorite line on BBI
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In comment 16404380 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16404376 Sy'56 said:
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But you can read this:
“It’s a good positive moment. I still think more so for the team than me personally,” Moss said. “These six weeks since UCLA weren’t about any individual. They were about us, the people who wanted to be here and play this game and wanted to come together.”
^Backup QB from USC that won (and he dominated) after the Bowl win. The UCLA game? Williams' last game
This backs up what you're saying. Link - ( New Window )
This doesn't meet even the basic threshold of hearsay. You're way smarter than this.
This isn't a courtroom, it's gambling. And stuff like this has to be part of the overall eval for a front office. It doesn't mean anything definitive, but ignore it as if it doesn't matter? It's a point of concern.
It's not a data point germane to the subject. I'm fine with actual criticism of the player. Neither this, nor the quote Sy mentions above, speak to Williams necessarily. They are vague comments/quotes, and like a Rorschach test, can mean whatever you want them to mean.
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I would absolutely take a less-physically-gifted QB with a sterling mental makeup than I would an uber-physical talent who doesn't have it between the ears. With this position, the stakes are so high, particularly drafting in the first round, and that QB has to be an extension of the head coach in the locker room, in the huddle and between the snap and the whistle. You have to at once be a leader of men and be humble enough to take an out-sized share of the blame when things go poorly, and be humble enough to be coachable and completely buy-in to your coaching staff.
I see what you see in the talent-level of Williams. And yet, I'm not there with him.
On the other hand, here are first-day investment examples of what you like:
As far as I'm concerned, we took a less gifted player in Jones who apparently has all of intangibles.
The Jets invested a high pick in Chad Pennington. Great guy who was also a Rhodes Scholar candidate. But he had a rag arm and limited physical skills overall.
The Steelers took Pickett a few years ago. Small hands, limited arm, but also a guy with good intangibles.
Chiefs selected a great guy in Alex Smith. Had all of the attributes you admire. But he was limited physically, too.
Denver made a first-round investment in Mr. Leadership - Tom Tebow. And outside of his bully-ball ability, he was mostly a joke throwing the ball.
Minnesota took a first-round flyer on Teddy Bridgewater. Bridgewater was another high character guy. But limited arm talent.
At the end of the day, and I'm sure you agree, it takes more art than science to figure out the QB position...
I didn't like Pickett at his investment cost, thought he was a day 2 talent. I had DJ as a 2nd rounder. I didn't believe in Tebow as an NFL QB. Pennington was back in a day I wasn't really into following the draft much. Bridgewater I had no opinion of because he was drafted at a time when we had Eli and had no plans to draft a successor yet. I follow prospects from a Giants-centric perspective.
I'll remind you that I said the athletic/physical baseline part is also mandatory to start with. I didn't love any of those prospects you mentioned, because of on-field or physical deficiencies. Particularly with DJ, I do think he has strong EQ, but it's clear that his on field IQ is not where it needs to be for a starting NFL QB. Note, you can be highly intelligent, but have poor on-field IQ. I suspect this is DJ. Sy had one of the greatest write-ups for a draft prospect to this respect in his QB draft preview of Daniel Jones, absolutely nailed it with respect to this.
You're looking for the whole package here, the IQ/EQ on field and off, and the physical and athletic attributes. You can't parse one over the other. You can and should weight certain attributes higher than others, sure. But to pretend I'm stopping at IQ and EQ and saying, "YASSS, draft this guy," that isn't at all what I've talked about. You have to evaluate everything and put it together as part of your grade/analysis. If you have a guy with poor EQ, though, it's a recipe for disaster, even if you have positive grades on the other stuff. Same goes for on-field IQ. I don't think Steve Young is a mensa-candidate, but he had great on-field IQ (often referred to as football instincts), strong EQ, and a strong physical profile to go with...that's a player I would like. I don't need him to be as smart as my head coach, I need him to be a smart decision-maker and processor of information very quickly on the field, and smart enough in a more traditional sense to be able to know a playbook in and out and translate that to what he's looking for on the football field. I hope this clarifies my position.
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If you want to be Caleb Williams's white knight, go ahead.
There are no perfect prospects - Caleb Williams included.
The thing is, if it doesn't show up in internet mock drafts, Producer isn't interested.
You're being silly. If you think these two quotes are germane to the subject, Williams' character, please tell me how. he isn't even mentioned. Nobody ever clarifies. They are just internet noise.
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In comment 16404406 Manhattan said:
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In comment 16404380 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16404376 Sy'56 said:
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But you can read this:
“It’s a good positive moment. I still think more so for the team than me personally,” Moss said. “These six weeks since UCLA weren’t about any individual. They were about us, the people who wanted to be here and play this game and wanted to come together.”
^Backup QB from USC that won (and he dominated) after the Bowl win. The UCLA game? Williams' last game
This backs up what you're saying. Link - ( New Window )
This doesn't meet even the basic threshold of hearsay. You're way smarter than this.
This isn't a courtroom, it's gambling. And stuff like this has to be part of the overall eval for a front office. It doesn't mean anything definitive, but ignore it as if it doesn't matter? It's a point of concern.
It's not a data point germane to the subject. I'm fine with actual criticism of the player. Neither this, nor the quote Sy mentions above, speak to Williams necessarily. They are vague comments/quotes, and like a Rorschach test, can mean whatever you want them to mean.
Yeah sure, you can't definitively say he was referencing CW in that quote, but it's also hardly a stretch to think he was.
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In comment 16404357 allstarjim said:
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I would absolutely take a less-physically-gifted QB with a sterling mental makeup than I would an uber-physical talent who doesn't have it between the ears. With this position, the stakes are so high, particularly drafting in the first round, and that QB has to be an extension of the head coach in the locker room, in the huddle and between the snap and the whistle. You have to at once be a leader of men and be humble enough to take an out-sized share of the blame when things go poorly, and be humble enough to be coachable and completely buy-in to your coaching staff.
I see what you see in the talent-level of Williams. And yet, I'm not there with him.
On the other hand, here are first-day investment examples of what you like:
As far as I'm concerned, we took a less gifted player in Jones who apparently has all of intangibles.
The Jets invested a high pick in Chad Pennington. Great guy who was also a Rhodes Scholar candidate. But he had a rag arm and limited physical skills overall.
The Steelers took Pickett a few years ago. Small hands, limited arm, but also a guy with good intangibles.
Chiefs selected a great guy in Alex Smith. Had all of the attributes you admire. But he was limited physically, too.
Denver made a first-round investment in Mr. Leadership - Tom Tebow. And outside of his bully-ball ability, he was mostly a joke throwing the ball.
Minnesota took a first-round flyer on Teddy Bridgewater. Bridgewater was another high character guy. But limited arm talent.
At the end of the day, and I'm sure you agree, it takes more art than science to figure out the QB position...
I didn't like Pickett at his investment cost, thought he was a day 2 talent. I had DJ as a 2nd rounder. I didn't believe in Tebow as an NFL QB. Pennington was back in a day I wasn't really into following the draft much. Bridgewater I had no opinion of because he was drafted at a time when we had Eli and had no plans to draft a successor yet. I follow prospects from a Giants-centric perspective.
I'll remind you that I said the athletic/physical baseline part is also mandatory to start with. I didn't love any of those prospects you mentioned, because of on-field or physical deficiencies. Particularly with DJ, I do think he has strong EQ, but it's clear that his on field IQ is not where it needs to be for a starting NFL QB. Note, you can be highly intelligent, but have poor on-field IQ. I suspect this is DJ. Sy had one of the greatest write-ups for a draft prospect to this respect in his QB draft preview of Daniel Jones, absolutely nailed it with respect to this.
You're looking for the whole package here, the IQ/EQ on field and off, and the physical and athletic attributes. You can't parse one over the other. You can and should weight certain attributes higher than others, sure. But to pretend I'm stopping at IQ and EQ and saying, "YASSS, draft this guy," that isn't at all what I've talked about. You have to evaluate everything and put it together as part of your grade/analysis. If you have a guy with poor EQ, though, it's a recipe for disaster, even if you have positive grades on the other stuff. Same goes for on-field IQ. I don't think Steve Young is a mensa-candidate, but he had great on-field IQ (often referred to as football instincts), strong EQ, and a strong physical profile to go with...that's a player I would like. I don't need him to be as smart as my head coach, I need him to be a smart decision-maker and processor of information very quickly on the field, and smart enough in a more traditional sense to be able to know a playbook in and out and translate that to what he's looking for on the football field. I hope this clarifies my position.
rank your top 6 QBs in this draft...
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In comment 16404412 allstarjim said:
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In comment 16404406 Manhattan said:
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In comment 16404380 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16404376 Sy'56 said:
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But you can read this:
“It’s a good positive moment. I still think more so for the team than me personally,” Moss said. “These six weeks since UCLA weren’t about any individual. They were about us, the people who wanted to be here and play this game and wanted to come together.”
^Backup QB from USC that won (and he dominated) after the Bowl win. The UCLA game? Williams' last game
This backs up what you're saying. Link - ( New Window )
This doesn't meet even the basic threshold of hearsay. You're way smarter than this.
This isn't a courtroom, it's gambling. And stuff like this has to be part of the overall eval for a front office. It doesn't mean anything definitive, but ignore it as if it doesn't matter? It's a point of concern.
It's not a data point germane to the subject. I'm fine with actual criticism of the player. Neither this, nor the quote Sy mentions above, speak to Williams necessarily. They are vague comments/quotes, and like a Rorschach test, can mean whatever you want them to mean.
Yeah sure, you can't definitively say he was referencing CW in that quote, but it's also hardly a stretch to think he was.
He could be referencing a thousand things. And it takes a hit job to assume it was about Williams. There has to be more, or it is just noise.
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In comment 16404445 Manhattan said:
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In comment 16404412 allstarjim said:
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In comment 16404406 Manhattan said:
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In comment 16404380 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16404376 Sy'56 said:
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But you can read this:
“It’s a good positive moment. I still think more so for the team than me personally,” Moss said. “These six weeks since UCLA weren’t about any individual. They were about us, the people who wanted to be here and play this game and wanted to come together.”
^Backup QB from USC that won (and he dominated) after the Bowl win. The UCLA game? Williams' last game
This backs up what you're saying. Link - ( New Window )
This doesn't meet even the basic threshold of hearsay. You're way smarter than this.
This isn't a courtroom, it's gambling. And stuff like this has to be part of the overall eval for a front office. It doesn't mean anything definitive, but ignore it as if it doesn't matter? It's a point of concern.
It's not a data point germane to the subject. I'm fine with actual criticism of the player. Neither this, nor the quote Sy mentions above, speak to Williams necessarily. They are vague comments/quotes, and like a Rorschach test, can mean whatever you want them to mean.
Yeah sure, you can't definitively say he was referencing CW in that quote, but it's also hardly a stretch to think he was.
He could be referencing a thousand things. And it takes a hit job to assume it was about Williams. There has to be more, or it is just noise.
That's very generous. Just since the UCLA game? Why not before? What changed? Look, I already know you're not going to consider this at all. I'm just glad you're not Joe Schoen. With respect, of course. We can agree to disagree. We agree on plenty of other things, but I think this quote has a pretty thin veil.
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In comment 16404405 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16404357 allstarjim said:
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I would absolutely take a less-physically-gifted QB with a sterling mental makeup than I would an uber-physical talent who doesn't have it between the ears. With this position, the stakes are so high, particularly drafting in the first round, and that QB has to be an extension of the head coach in the locker room, in the huddle and between the snap and the whistle. You have to at once be a leader of men and be humble enough to take an out-sized share of the blame when things go poorly, and be humble enough to be coachable and completely buy-in to your coaching staff.
I see what you see in the talent-level of Williams. And yet, I'm not there with him.
On the other hand, here are first-day investment examples of what you like:
As far as I'm concerned, we took a less gifted player in Jones who apparently has all of intangibles.
The Jets invested a high pick in Chad Pennington. Great guy who was also a Rhodes Scholar candidate. But he had a rag arm and limited physical skills overall.
The Steelers took Pickett a few years ago. Small hands, limited arm, but also a guy with good intangibles.
Chiefs selected a great guy in Alex Smith. Had all of the attributes you admire. But he was limited physically, too.
Denver made a first-round investment in Mr. Leadership - Tom Tebow. And outside of his bully-ball ability, he was mostly a joke throwing the ball.
Minnesota took a first-round flyer on Teddy Bridgewater. Bridgewater was another high character guy. But limited arm talent.
At the end of the day, and I'm sure you agree, it takes more art than science to figure out the QB position...
I didn't like Pickett at his investment cost, thought he was a day 2 talent. I had DJ as a 2nd rounder. I didn't believe in Tebow as an NFL QB. Pennington was back in a day I wasn't really into following the draft much. Bridgewater I had no opinion of because he was drafted at a time when we had Eli and had no plans to draft a successor yet. I follow prospects from a Giants-centric perspective.
I'll remind you that I said the athletic/physical baseline part is also mandatory to start with. I didn't love any of those prospects you mentioned, because of on-field or physical deficiencies. Particularly with DJ, I do think he has strong EQ, but it's clear that his on field IQ is not where it needs to be for a starting NFL QB. Note, you can be highly intelligent, but have poor on-field IQ. I suspect this is DJ. Sy had one of the greatest write-ups for a draft prospect to this respect in his QB draft preview of Daniel Jones, absolutely nailed it with respect to this.
You're looking for the whole package here, the IQ/EQ on field and off, and the physical and athletic attributes. You can't parse one over the other. You can and should weight certain attributes higher than others, sure. But to pretend I'm stopping at IQ and EQ and saying, "YASSS, draft this guy," that isn't at all what I've talked about. You have to evaluate everything and put it together as part of your grade/analysis. If you have a guy with poor EQ, though, it's a recipe for disaster, even if you have positive grades on the other stuff. Same goes for on-field IQ. I don't think Steve Young is a mensa-candidate, but he had great on-field IQ (often referred to as football instincts), strong EQ, and a strong physical profile to go with...that's a player I would like. I don't need him to be as smart as my head coach, I need him to be a smart decision-maker and processor of information very quickly on the field, and smart enough in a more traditional sense to be able to know a playbook in and out and translate that to what he's looking for on the football field. I hope this clarifies my position.
rank your top 6 QBs in this draft...
I don't do that before combine...will come after. But right now Daniels is my top guy, subject to change.
That's very generous. Just since the UCLA game? Why not before? What changed? Look, I already know you're not going to consider this at all. I'm just glad you're not Joe Schoen. With respect, of course. We can agree to disagree. We agree on plenty of other things, but I think this quote has a pretty thin veil.
Just to be clear , you think Joe Schoen should dismiss drafting elite talent because of a vague quote made by a backup QB, where said player wasn't even mentioned by name. It sounds ridiculous just typing it. That's how you wind up with a team of Daniel Jonses.
I don't do that before combine...will come after. But right now Daniels is my top guy, subject to change.
A player who's arm isn't top 5 - IN THIS DRAFT CLASS. Yes, we agree on some things but like you, I'm glad you're not Joe Schoen ;).
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In comment 16404461 Manhattan said:
That's very generous. Just since the UCLA game? Why not before? What changed? Look, I already know you're not going to consider this at all. I'm just glad you're not Joe Schoen. With respect, of course. We can agree to disagree. We agree on plenty of other things, but I think this quote has a pretty thin veil.
Just to be clear , you think Joe Schoen should dismiss drafting elite talent because of a vague quote made by a backup QB, where said player wasn't even mentioned by name. It sounds ridiculous just typing it. That's how you wind up with a team of Daniel Jonses.
Respectfully, please stop strawmanning me. It's exhausting and not productive. I've been pretty clear wrt to overall profile analysis and that you don't base a decision on any one thing, and you know this. Including this quote. It would cause me as an NFL GM to investigate further, to dig really deep.
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In comment 16404457 AROCK1000 said:
I don't do that before combine...will come after. But right now Daniels is my top guy, subject to change.
A player who's arm isn't top 5 - IN THIS DRAFT CLASS. Yes, we agree on some things but like you, I'm glad you're not Joe Schoen ;).
It seems you only define arm talent in terms of arm strength. I do not. Further, as I said in other threads, I think arm talent is important to have a baseline threshold, and anything over that is extra, certainly helps the grade, but isn't a requirement to be a top QB. Daniels is in the top 5 in arm talent. I think his arm strength will easily meet the baseline. Hopefully Ourlads will publish the QB velocity numbers again. As I've said before, with QBs, there's so much more than arm talent, and it's the worst predictor of future success. I've posted Ourlads' combine velo testing result history before. A casual look at this list would tell you that some of the strongest names on that list are not close to NFL starters.
Instincts, processing, decision-making, accuracy, all better aspects I want to see than simply arm strength. I think Daniels rates very highly in these other areas.
A player I didn't like because I didn't feel like he had an NFL starting QB quality arm? Lamar. Another player I didn't like who had a really good arm? Rosen. I'm not perfect, no one is, but I want a 1st round QB draft investment to be able to at least throw it 52 mph. I would consider a QB slightly under that given other profile attributes, and my strongest preference would be a QB that can throw it at least 55mph. But you don't need to throw it 60 mph+, it's a nice to have. Can you make all the throws (the 15 yard out route from opposite hash?), can you throw with accuracy to all levels? Daniels can, and with enough velo. I've seen him make some pretty strong darts to the intermediate level.
So I don't care if he's the 5th or 6th rated QB in this class based on just his ability to throw with velocity. It's just one part of the formula. I do think there's a very strong chance his arm will be in the top 5 in velo, though.
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In comment 16404410 Go Terps said:
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If you want to be Caleb Williams's white knight, go ahead.
There are no perfect prospects - Caleb Williams included.
The thing is, if it doesn't show up in internet mock drafts, Producer isn't interested.
You're being silly. If you think these two quotes are germane to the subject, Williams' character, please tell me how. he isn't even mentioned. Nobody ever clarifies. They are just internet noise.
Why do you get so defensive every time I bring up Producer?
Would you bless us taking him?
Who else is there?
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In comment 16404461 Manhattan said:
That's very generous. Just since the UCLA game? Why not before? What changed? Look, I already know you're not going to consider this at all. I'm just glad you're not Joe Schoen. With respect, of course. We can agree to disagree. We agree on plenty of other things, but I think this quote has a pretty thin veil.
Just to be clear , you think Joe Schoen should dismiss drafting elite talent because of a vague quote made by a backup QB, where said player wasn't even mentioned by name. It sounds ridiculous just typing it. That's how you wind up with a team of Daniel Jonses.
The NYG aren't trading 3 1st rounders plus for a guy with question marks related to his character and mentality. So, you're theoretical positing is pointless buddy.
Guy on bus to his son: "I think Caleb Williams is overrated as a prospect."
M/P across the aisle: "How can you possibly say that? What data points do you have to support that claim? You are talking about a guy that when he sets foot on a field will be a certified top 10 QB before he throws a pass. THAT'S how good he is."
:: Guy on bus frantically pressing the stop request button ::
Just to be clear , you think Joe Schoen should dismiss drafting elite talent because of a vague quote made by a backup QB, where said player wasn't even mentioned by name. It sounds ridiculous just typing it. That's how you wind up with a team of Daniel Jonses.
Do you see my other link above on Miller Moss?
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I am reading between the lines with what you said about character issues...that being said,if he fell to us at 6...
Would you bless us taking him?
Who else is there?
wow...the very question speaks volumes Sy
For me Maye looks the part,but none of them really jump out as a franchise QB.
I am in the "trade down and take advantage of someone else"camp.
We can fill alot of holes that way
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Just to be clear , you think Joe Schoen should dismiss drafting elite talent because of a vague quote made by a backup QB, where said player wasn't even mentioned by name. It sounds ridiculous just typing it. That's how you wind up with a team of Daniel Jonses.
Do you see my other link above on Miller Moss?
I had missed this. Thanks for posting.
Kind of takes the wind out of the unfortunate conspiracy theory so gleefully repeated here that Caleb was a problem child and a bad teammate. Will the usual suspects display an ounce of circumspection and admit they went too far with their insinuations? Doubtful.
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In comment 16404498 Manhattan said:
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Just to be clear , you think Joe Schoen should dismiss drafting elite talent because of a vague quote made by a backup QB, where said player wasn't even mentioned by name. It sounds ridiculous just typing it. That's how you wind up with a team of Daniel Jonses.
Do you see my other link above on Miller Moss?
I had missed this. Thanks for posting.
Kind of takes the wind out of the unfortunate conspiracy theory so gleefully repeated here that Caleb was a problem child and a bad teammate. Will the usual suspects display an ounce of circumspection and admit they went too far with their insinuations? Doubtful.
Dude you are a broken record. That article bw posted had a non-quote of Moss thanking CW for his help in developing him. What was he supposed to say? "Well obviously my teammate thought himself too big gor this game and he was a j/o the entire season." He absolutely had to say that.
How can anybody take you seriously, you were into Pickett and Willis and all you do is talk about how CW is the anointed one. Your track record sucks for forecasting QB success. How's that for a data point?
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In comment 16404654 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16404498 Manhattan said:
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Just to be clear , you think Joe Schoen should dismiss drafting elite talent because of a vague quote made by a backup QB, where said player wasn't even mentioned by name. It sounds ridiculous just typing it. That's how you wind up with a team of Daniel Jonses.
Do you see my other link above on Miller Moss?
I had missed this. Thanks for posting.
Kind of takes the wind out of the unfortunate conspiracy theory so gleefully repeated here that Caleb was a problem child and a bad teammate. Will the usual suspects display an ounce of circumspection and admit they went too far with their insinuations? Doubtful.
Dude you are a broken record. That article bw posted had a non-quote of Moss thanking CW for his help in developing him. What was he supposed to say? "Well obviously my teammate thought himself too big gor this game and he was a j/o the entire season." He absolutely had to say that.
How can anybody take you seriously, you were into Pickett and Willis and all you do is talk about how CW is the anointed one. Your track record sucks for forecasting QB success. How's that for a data point?
Lol how's that for a data point haha. I'm really wondering if he's just going to become a fan of the Bears or Commanders when they draft him, seems like it?
Dude you are a broken record. That article bw posted had a non-quote of Moss thanking CW for his help in developing him. What was he supposed to say? "Well obviously my teammate thought himself too big gor this game and he was a j/o the entire season." He absolutely had to say that.
The link I added actually has Moss's X account and him thanking CW...
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In comment 16404654 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16404498 Manhattan said:
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Just to be clear , you think Joe Schoen should dismiss drafting elite talent because of a vague quote made by a backup QB, where said player wasn't even mentioned by name. It sounds ridiculous just typing it. That's how you wind up with a team of Daniel Jonses.
Do you see my other link above on Miller Moss?
I had missed this. Thanks for posting.
Kind of takes the wind out of the unfortunate conspiracy theory so gleefully repeated here that Caleb was a problem child and a bad teammate. Will the usual suspects display an ounce of circumspection and admit they went too far with their insinuations? Doubtful.
Dude you are a broken record. That article bw posted had a non-quote of Moss thanking CW for his help in developing him. What was he supposed to say? "Well obviously my teammate thought himself too big gor this game and he was a j/o the entire season." He absolutely had to say that.
How can anybody take you seriously, you were into Pickett and Willis and all you do is talk about how CW is the anointed one. Your track record sucks for forecasting QB success. How's that for a data point?
You are confusing me with someone else, Mr. January 2024. Personally, I never liked Willis much. On other platforms I thought Pickett had a chance to be the best QB from that class. So what? You sound like someone who is still butthurt over Daniel Jones. I've been polite to you, I deserve the same treatment in return. Until you can behave yourself in public... so long...
As far as my registration being last month, its apparently only 1 month after your latest new mask. Sorry I just think that is lame.
I ignored your repetitive posts before finally having enough of so many threads tainted by your drivel and seeing other felt the same way. I would love to say "so long" but chances are you will be everywjere.
What do you mean by "made it"?
Rodney Peete, Mark Sanchez, Pat Haden were decent NFL players.
Carson does appear to be the best of the bunch.
But I hope you aren't suggesting this is somehow a reason not to draft a USC QB?
Helmet scouting is for losers.
I hear you. Definitely want to draft based on staying away from a specific school that's had limited success. On the flip side, looking at guys from coaches who've had smashing success developing QB's for the pros is a sure path to glory.
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Honest question, how many USC QB made it in the NFL? I know Carson Palmer. Don't USC QBs have a history of not impressing in NFL?
What do you mean by "made it"?
Rodney Peete, Mark Sanchez, Pat Haden were decent NFL players.
Carson does appear to be the best of the bunch.
But I hope you aren't suggesting this is somehow a reason not to draft a USC QB?
Rich Gannon?
Made it means, a solid career, highly successful, franchise QB. If we're looking for a franchise QB why go to a school that hasn't been very successful at producing them.
Rich Gannon?
Delaware.
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Rich Gannon?
Delaware.
I keep confusing him with Sean Salisbury... Lol. Thanks.
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Honest question, how many USC QB made it in the NFL? I know Carson Palmer. Don't USC QBs have a history of not impressing in NFL?
Made it means, a solid career, highly successful, franchise QB. If we're looking for a franchise QB why go to a school that hasn't been very successful at producing them.
This is what everyone said about C.J. Stroud and Ohio State QBs until C.J. Stroud balled out.
You evaluate the player. A school doesn't "produce" a player. That's what his momma and daddy did.
A school has very little to do with it.
FWIW.
Matt Miller, draft expert for ESPN, and he's very good, said CW is as good a prospect as Burrow. And could grade out higher than because of his running...