I know Mahomes is the comp for Williams for a lot here, but doesn't seem Sy is as big on him as some are (wanting to trade up to 1 for him). Says he is closer to Mayfield and Murray than he is Mahomes.
Just posted this today so thought it was an interesting watch.
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No one is never wrong and I'm pretty sure I've seen Sy admit when he's wrong in the past. But unlike most here, he actually does this stuff for a living and NO ONE bats 1.000. That being said, there are red flags with Williams if you actually watch the video linked here. Not saying they're not able to be coached out of him or coached up, but there are issues in Williams' game. Not the tools, but his play.
Comparing anyone to Mahomes isn't fair. The guy is a Hall of Famer and one of the very best ever if he never plays another down.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
Let’s see how the draft process shakes out. A lot of minds can and will be changed.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
Exactly, and I would argue that Williams is a better prospect at this point than Mahomes was. If you think Caleb was careless with the ball this past season, take a look at Mahomes TTech tape.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
This is correct. It’s arm talent and mobility. Nobody can tell if the kid has the desire and drive of Patrick. Patrick also landed with Andy Reid. Sat behind a real pro in Alex smith and took over a team that was basically in the afc championship game.
Comparing anyone to Mahomes isn't fair. The guy is a Hall of Famer and one of the very best ever if he never plays another down.
Agreed word for word.
Also, a huge % of people didn't know Mahomes was MAHOMES until his first full year of NFL starting was in the books. Honestly, NO ONE thought he'd be this good.
Comparing anyone to the best QB ever is absurd. Can Williams be an elite or close to elite QB is the only question. Forget Mahomes.
Comparing anyone to Mahomes isn't fair. The guy is a Hall of Famer and one of the very best ever if he never plays another down.
Except in the pocket Williams is nothing like Kyler. He has many times the pocket presence and he has elite arm talent. So if you tell me make Kyler bigger, add top 5 arm talent and better overall pocket ability and elite pocket presence, then you are talking about a top 4 NFL QB. In fact Daniels is a better comp for Kyler.
Let’s see how the draft process shakes out. A lot of minds can and will be changed.
except the legendary Ben McAdoo
Yup
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at Texas Tech. Because there are some similarities.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
This is correct. It’s arm talent and mobility. Nobody can tell if the kid has the desire and drive of Patrick. Patrick also landed with Andy Reid. Sat behind a real pro in Alex smith and took over a team that was basically in the afc championship game.
Mahomes was the definition of reckless and fearless at Lubbock. He would try anything at any time. And his arm and athleticism allowed him to pull it off.
You see quite a bit of that with CW at USC.
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
Sy - and many others - didn't see a great QB in Mahomes in college. You are looking for tools, smarts and coachability. I have no idea what Williams' upside is in the NFL, but "Williams is not Mahomes" is sort of in the ballpark of "Rome Odunze is not Jerry Rice." It's an absurd discussion to ever have.
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
And? What is wrong with the writeup? Again, people seem to miss what evaluating a player is. It is based off of what they have shown with projection mixed in. However, how much can you really project someone? He clearly stated that his upside is better than anyone. He said he'll probably have to sit a year or two before he is ready and does that warrant a first round pick? I think he nails it.
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
WTF? Sy was essentially off by one year. Everything he said was correct except that it would take 2 years...it took sitting just 1.
Sy - and many others - didn't see a great QB in Mahomes in college. You are looking for tools, smarts and coachability. I have no idea what Williams' upside is in the NFL, but "Williams is not Mahomes" is sort of in the ballpark of "Rome Odunze is not Jerry Rice." It's an absurd discussion to ever have.
Good post. Sort of surprised Sy would tack this way.
Like I said above, Mahomes was incredibly reckless at TT. But, JFC, was he a fun watch. Some of the throws he attempted - and completed - were from a different galaxy.
The reality ended up being that while you wouldn't teach Mahomes's mechanics to someone else, it's clear that his mechanics work for him.
I don't think the NFL is where you go to improve your mechanics. You've either proven that what you do works or you haven't. I'd keep that in mind with Williams as well as Penix.
The 2018 draft is another example where people forget how they pushed narratives of Darnold and Rosen, Allen begore Lamar Jackson but act now like Giants were horrible by not drafting Allen and or Jackson.
We can all agree the Giants, Daboll needs his own QB to win or lose with. Jones isn't that guy. He will be somebody's Ryan Tannehill or Mtchell Trubisky (after this year).
I don't think the NFL is where you go to improve your mechanics. You've either proven that what you do works or you haven't. I'd keep that in mind with Williams as well as Penix.
I would push back on this some. Favre was a disaster out of S.Miss. Rodgers overhauled his mechanics coming in from Cal. Allen has cleaned up a lot of his loose mechanics from Wyoming.
The reality ended up being that while you wouldn't teach Mahomes's mechanics to someone else, it's clear that his mechanics work for him.
I don't think the NFL is where you go to improve your mechanics. You've either proven that what you do works or you haven't. I'd keep that in mind with Williams as well as Penix.
Mechanics can be taught as we saw with Josh Allen. His mechanics coming out were atrocious. The key to me is do they have the intelligence and work ethic to adapt enough to the NFL. The concern is that some guys rely solely on athletic ability and that does not fly in the NFL. What made Allen different than someone like Malik Willis in college was that you could see that Allen was scanning the whole field and was making the right reads, but his mechanics were a mess. Willis, on the other hand, had guys open that he would miss because he would scan one portion of the field and if nobody was open he would run.
Mahomes also sat a year like Sy thought he should and Andy Reid worked with people like Colin Kaepernick's college coach to put together a scheme that would work for what Mahomes did well. Had Mahomes been thrown to the wolves Week 1 on a team like the Giants have now I think you get different results. He would still be a good QB, but I don't think he would have had the same results he has put up in KC.
If I am a GM the interviews will say a lot about where I rank Caleb Williams. Can he show that he has the football IQ to be able to work with NFL coaching or is he just going to rely on what got him to this point. Kyler Murray is not reaching his potential because he does not have that football IQ.
Let’s see how the draft process shakes out. A lot of minds can and will be changed.
They were some high on P.M. and calling him a sleeper pick. The draft is a crapshoot but let's not act like Mahomes was in the same bucket as Brady in the draft. I
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
I guess he was worth a first round pick in retrospect....
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I don't think the NFL is where you go to improve your mechanics. You've either proven that what you do works or you haven't. I'd keep that in mind with Williams as well as Penix.
I would push back on this some. Favre was a disaster out of S.Miss. Rodgers overhauled his mechanics coming in from Cal. Allen has cleaned up a lot of his loose mechanics from Wyoming.
We've all seen enough QBs now that we'll be able to come up with examples in any column. I could point to Rivers, Kosar, Lamar, Cunningham, or a bunch of other guys whose mechanics aren't what you would teach, but it worked for them.
And those 3 examples you make all have historic arm talent, and frequently throw from odd angles and platforms.
In the examples of Williams and Penix, both can clearly throw the ball with power and accuracy. I wouldn't be concerned with either in terms of mechanics.
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5 – Patrick Mahomes – Texas Tech – 6’2/225: 76
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
I guess he was worth a first round pick in retrospect....
Yes, in KC it was perfect for him. Sit for a year and be a willing, hard working student coached by one of the best QB/Offensive minds in the league. He would not have had that here, and probably not in most NFL teams.
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
He wasn't completely wrong, as Mahomes redshirted his rookie year.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
There are 3 QBs per year that can compare to Mahomes at Texas Tech.
When comparisons are made - we all know it is not comparing to their college tape.
For Sy this us a risky take. He missed on Mahomes and if CW emerges as a top 3 QB, which is within his range of outcomes, then along with the Mahomes whiff, it is fair to wonder if Sy has a blind spot evaluating quarterbacks, focusing more on fumbles rather than creativity, pocket presence and arm talent.
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at Texas Tech. Because there are some similarities.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
Exactly, and I would argue that Williams is a better prospect at this point than Mahomes was. If you think Caleb was careless with the ball this past season, take a look at Mahomes TTech tape.
Willams will grade out better than where I had Mahomes, yes.
I still believe comparing the two is a clear sign people aren't actually watching.
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
Sitting out for a year panned out
Sy - and many others - didn't see a great QB in Mahomes in college. You are looking for tools, smarts and coachability. I have no idea what Williams' upside is in the NFL, but "Williams is not Mahomes" is sort of in the ballpark of "Rome Odunze is not Jerry Rice." It's an absurd discussion to ever have.
The problem is I've read multiple times that Williams is the next Mahomes
Nothing about it is accurate.
I feel Daboll can get the most out of any of these kids and I'd be happy if they got someone early they like. Not Penix, though.
But the video is mostly about comparing him to an all-time great QB is just silly unless you want to state certain highlight reels look the same.
You guys know I am not a fan of comparisons - unless it is stated what they're for.
And yes - I get it wrong sometimes and I have zero issues admitting that. There isn't anyone in the NFL or media that can say otherwise - it's part of the job. I had Josh Rosen graded very high and it was the worst miss of my year. There will be others as well.
There are 3 QBs per year that can compare to Mahomes at Texas Tech.
When comparisons are made - we all know it is not comparing to their college tape.
With all due respect, I suggest you go back and rewatch what Mahomes was doing in Lubbock. That wasn't normal and I don't see that every year. NFW.
I believe there is a path to say Williams looks like Mahomes at TT - in style, athleticism, and throwing - and that could signal something special in the NFL.
So much is luck, too. Right? Mahomes got under the master handling of Reid. CW could end up in Chicago in an environment much more challenging...
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5 – Patrick Mahomes – Texas Tech – 6’2/225: 76
Summary: Junior entry with 2-plus years of starting experience. Led the nation in passing yards and yards per game in 2016, earning him 2nd Team All Big 12 honors. The arm talent of Mahomes is enough to excite anyone, as he possesses the ability to throw the ball 70+ yards in the air. While he may be able to count on one hand how may times he will need to do that in a game over his career, it’s a confirmation that he can throw the rock with anyone. Mahomes comes from the infamous Texas Tech spread attack that will force him in to a full blown student mode for a year or two in the NFL. His mechanics need a lot of work as well, thus he is multiple years away in all likelihood.
*Mahomes is a kid that loves the game, first one in and last one out type. If you had to measure talent with all of these kids, he is probably at the top. But in the same breath I think he is the furthest from being game ready. You will have to commit to him sitting for 2 years and then the thought remains, is that worth a 1st round pick? Tough call.
I guess he was worth a first round pick in retrospect....
You guys are missing the point on his question about whether "that is worth" a first round pick. He's talking about him possibly needing to sit for two years (of a 5-year contract) before starting, not his talent.
Sitting used to be the norm for a QB taken in the first round. Look at the best QBs of the last 20 years. A whole lot of them sat for a year, sometimes two. Now teams want to throw guys on the field right away, whether they are ready of not, because they could lose then in 5 (or 4) years. The Panthers may have ruined Young by throwing him out there from day 1.
I always take what Sy says as one more guy's opinion. But he's not just giving his opinions based on highlight videos, as many here do. He watches the whole game. Williams has highlight reel plays where he scrambles all over the place and then finally finds a WR open because no DB can cover a guy forever. That's not what makes a great QB. If you want to rate QBs, watch what they do when they have to stay in the pocket and make reads and throws with pressure in their face and tight coverage on receivers.
I'm thinking what if ND was Philly? I'm off him.
The kid has a long way to go before that is a conversation.
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There are 3 QBs per year that can compare to Mahomes at Texas Tech.
When comparisons are made - we all know it is not comparing to their college tape.
With all due respect, I suggest you go back and rewatch what Mahomes was doing in Lubbock. That wasn't normal and I don't see that every year. NFW.
I believe there is a path to say Williams looks like Mahomes at TT - in style, athleticism, and throwing - and that could signal something special in the NFL.
So much is luck, too. Right? Mahomes got under the master handling of Reid. CW could end up in Chicago in an environment much more challenging...
I saw plenty of Mahomes
And yes a MAJOR piece of his success was getting linked up with Reid (same with Purdy getting linked with Shanahan). But I don't want to take away from his success - what he does in clutch situations and the gamer mentality + leadership traits are all him. His work ethic is second to none and at the end of the day - that always ends up being the case with all time greats. Obsessing over what others overlook.
Zach Wilson had a bunch of Mahomes-type plays in college. So did Bryce Young. So did Sam Howell. So did Jordan Love.
The projection to Murray/Mayfield is also interesting and somewhat bearish relative to average, but that's more subjective and requires greater judgement.