I know Mahomes is the comp for Williams for a lot here, but doesn't seem Sy is as big on him as some are (wanting to trade up to 1 for him). Says he is closer to Mayfield and Murray than he is Mahomes.
Just posted this today so thought it was an interesting watch.
Link - (
New Window )
If we have faith in Daboll, he will identify the guy who fits what he wants out of a QB, and clean up any shortcomings.
That's why the time is right to get HIS guy.
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In comment 16403539 bw in dc said:
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at Texas Tech. Because there are some similarities.
The comp should not be to Mahomes, NFL version.
This is correct. It’s arm talent and mobility. Nobody can tell if the kid has the desire and drive of Patrick. Patrick also landed with Andy Reid. Sat behind a real pro in Alex smith and took over a team that was basically in the afc championship game.
Mahomes was the definition of reckless and fearless at Lubbock. He would try anything at any time. And his arm and athleticism allowed him to pull it off.
You see quite a bit of that with CW at USC.
We’ve had our disagreements on this board but with this I’m with you 100 percent. What worries me is his personality. That’s where I see the Kyler Murray comp. His play style isn’t Murray at all. Murray had to be on the move to find passing lanes. Caleb’s arm talent is undeniable.
We’ve had our disagreements on this board but with this I’m with you 100 percent. What worries me is his personality. That’s where I see the Kyler Murray comp. His play style isn’t Murray at all. Murray had to be on the move to find passing lanes. Caleb’s arm talent is undeniable.
I think that's a legit concern. I remember listening to Mahomes before the 2017 draft on Jon Gruden's ESPN show for QB prospects (a great show, btw). And it didn't take long to see that Mahomes was going to be super-coachable, was humble, and had the right demeanor.
CW has a lot of convincing to do to dispel those concerns.
2017 and 2018 Mahomes couldn't read NFL defenses (by his own admission), so that's something else to take into account. Certainly against the Patriots it looked like he didn't.
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We’ve had our disagreements on this board but with this I’m with you 100 percent. What worries me is his personality. That’s where I see the Kyler Murray comp. His play style isn’t Murray at all. Murray had to be on the move to find passing lanes. Caleb’s arm talent is undeniable.
I think that's a legit concern. I remember listening to Mahomes before the 2017 draft on Jon Gruden's ESPN show for QB prospects (a great show, btw). And it didn't take long to see that Mahomes was going to be super-coachable, was humble, and had the right demeanor.
CW has a lot of convincing to do to dispel those concerns.
I can buy this. There is a difference between confidence and arrogance. I am not familiar with all the between the ears stuff with Caleb, but I want the next qb to be ready to learn and get better. Not have a feeling that he is already the best at what he does. Thats a big selling point for me with JJ.
Who said he is never wrong? Even the best GM’s in football are wrong at times. IIRC Sy also said that Zach Wilson was a gimmick QB who he had as a day 2 pick. The 49’ers have built the deepest most talented team in the NFL and they traded three 1st round picks to move up for Trey Lance.
Also, "he's not patrick mahomes" is still not a reason not to draft someone or not to rate them highly. Patrick Mahomes himself was not that.
What a brutal fucking career. Never started a game or threw a pass after “leading” Browns to 0-15 in games he played. Out after 4 years. Still just 28. Poor bastard.
Also, "he's not patrick mahomes" is still not a reason not to draft someone or not to rate them highly. Patrick Mahomes himself was not that.
That's why I am curious how Texas Tech Mahomes compares to NFL Mahomes. It seems apples to oranges to compare a college prosepct to a successful NFL player. But what is useful is comparing TT Mahomes to USC Williams.
If they were similar in college, then I think the takeaway is that Williams can LEARN how to be an NFL QB like Mahomes did. This is assuming TT Mahomes was very different than NFL Mahomes.
A lot of these plays/throws are just brilliant. And just watch the zip on some of the throws. That's not ordinary. Nor are the throws when he is rolling left and throwing lasers down the field.
Mahomes being Mahomes... - ( New Window )
Also, "he's not patrick mahomes" is still not a reason not to draft someone or not to rate them highly. Patrick Mahomes himself was not that.
Do not take this as Williams is not worth drafting.
He is a top 6 player in this draft class for me so YES - he is the guy unless Jayden Daniels is there.
But the video is mostly about comparing him to an all-time great QB is just silly unless you want to state certain highlight reels look the same.
You guys know I am not a fan of comparisons - unless it is stated what they're for.
And yes - I get it wrong sometimes and I have zero issues admitting that. There isn't anyone in the NFL or media that can say otherwise - it's part of the job. I had Josh Rosen graded very high and it was the worst miss of my year. There will be others as well.
You mean like JJ??
Sorry couldn't help myself Sy
That's why I am curious how Texas Tech Mahomes compares to NFL Mahomes. It seems apples to oranges to compare a college prosepct to a successful NFL player. But what is useful is comparing TT Mahomes to USC Williams.
If they were similar in college, then I think the takeaway is that Williams can LEARN how to be an NFL QB like Mahomes did. This is assuming TT Mahomes was very different than NFL Mahomes.
Check out the link I provided. IMV, you can see why Mahomes/TT comes up as a comp for CW...
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But don't take this the wrong way. I have him graded high (a YES if he is there at 6) and one of the higher grades I've given out in recent years.
But the video is mostly about comparing him to an all-time great QB is just silly unless you want to state certain highlight reels look the same.
You guys know I am not a fan of comparisons - unless it is stated what they're for.
And yes - I get it wrong sometimes and I have zero issues admitting that. There isn't anyone in the NFL or media that can say otherwise - it's part of the job. I had Josh Rosen graded very high and it was the worst miss of my year. There will be others as well.
You mean like JJ??
Sorry couldn't help myself Sy
Absolutely could be
I would be surprised if Sy didn't have it that way...
A lot of these plays/throws are just brilliant. And just watch the zip on some of the throws. That's not ordinary. Nor are the throws when he is rolling left and throwing lasers down the field. Mahomes being Mahomes... - ( New Window )
The throw at 6:49...that is not a normal looking throw. Unbelievable.
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Sy' reading between the lines Daniels > Williams?
I would be surprised if Sy didn't have it that way...
I think it's crazy. Daniels has ordinary arm talent compared to Williams and he looks like he will break in half at his present ht/wt.
The throw at 6:49...that is not a normal looking throw. Unbelievable.
Almost every throw from that point on are sensational. The throw fading away at the 8:15 is a gem...
No you didn’t
I think it's crazy. Daniels has ordinary arm talent compared to Williams and he looks like he will break in half at his present ht/wt.
Daniels did just fine in the NFL-lite, the SEC, taking hits. And he ran away like a panther against great athletes. But I get the concern. It's not unreasonable.
We definitely diverge on JD's arm talent. I think it's in the plus category.
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In comment 16403691 Sy'56 said:
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But don't take this the wrong way. I have him graded high (a YES if he is there at 6) and one of the higher grades I've given out in recent years.
But the video is mostly about comparing him to an all-time great QB is just silly unless you want to state certain highlight reels look the same.
You guys know I am not a fan of comparisons - unless it is stated what they're for.
And yes - I get it wrong sometimes and I have zero issues admitting that. There isn't anyone in the NFL or media that can say otherwise - it's part of the job. I had Josh Rosen graded very high and it was the worst miss of my year. There will be others as well.
You mean like JJ??
Sorry couldn't help myself Sy
Absolutely could be
Hahahaaa
Well played Sy
I only wish folks would speak about me in the 3rd person...
Frankly I am taking everyone's word on all these guys. I think I do like Daniels best. But again limited games watched. I like Nix, too. Like how he gets the ball out quickly and accurately.
But this I do know - all of them are much better than Jones.
Frankly I am taking everyone's word on all these guys. I think I do like Daniels best. But again limited games watched. I like Nix, too. Like how he gets the ball out quickly and accurately.
But this I do know - all of them are much better than Jones.
You don't see elite arm talent and creative playmaking ability? Maybe you should give it another go. Here is a link I provided to Matt Waldman analysis.
Matt Waldman /Caleb Williams film room - ( New Window )
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with Williams. I just don't. Every game I saw him in he lost and did not look good at all. Sorry in advance. I still go back to PAC-12 defenses. Penix and Nix did better.
Frankly I am taking everyone's word on all these guys. I think I do like Daniels best. But again limited games watched. I like Nix, too. Like how he gets the ball out quickly and accurately.
But this I do know - all of them are much better than Jones.
You don't see elite arm talent and creative playmaking ability? Maybe you should give it another go. Here is a link I provided to Matt Waldman analysis. Matt Waldman /Caleb Williams film room - ( New Window )
Yeah, great, a highlight film.
I didn't say I was right, I just never saw him do well.
Don’t know anything about his play and can’t watch the video right now but I’d question bring a crier to play for a team with such a bullish and borderline asshole fanbase.
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In comment 16403918 section125 said:
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with Williams. I just don't. Every game I saw him in he lost and did not look good at all. Sorry in advance. I still go back to PAC-12 defenses. Penix and Nix did better.
Frankly I am taking everyone's word on all these guys. I think I do like Daniels best. But again limited games watched. I like Nix, too. Like how he gets the ball out quickly and accurately.
But this I do know - all of them are much better than Jones.
You don't see elite arm talent and creative playmaking ability? Maybe you should give it another go. Here is a link I provided to Matt Waldman analysis. Matt Waldman /Caleb Williams film room - ( New Window )
Yeah, great, a highlight film.
I didn't say I was right, I just never saw him do well.
Its all he posts about.... 2 topics:
1) how much Jones sucks
2) how awesome Caleb Williams is going to be and Mara should trade all of our picks, his brother and his left jut to move up to get him.
Eric recently talked about the success of QB prospects being largely tied to what's between the ears. Any reasonable talent evaluator would have to agree. You can't measure this on highlight film. And you can have all the arm talent in the world and fail because of not having it where it counts.
And Williams DOES have all the arm talent in the world. He is an A+++ prospect based on arm talent alone. But arm talent by itself is perhaps the worst predictor of NFL success that there is.
There are two basic types of intelligence. There is IQ and EQ. I don't know enough about Williams to make a certain judgement on either. I don't think he's an unintelligent man in terms of IQ.
But I think EQ is so underrated in QB prospect evaluation. That position demands high EQ. I have questions here. How does a QB respond to failure? How is he as a leader of men? When the stakes are immense and dealing with intense stress (often in the physical form of pressure), can he stay composed and execute in an intense environment? Can you take accountability for your own mistakes and be humble when you cost your team, or will you deflect blame?
I would say I have serious doubts about Williams' EQ. Off the field, he seems to me to be self-absorbed in his own perceived greatness. He didn't deliver often in high-stress situations.
If you compare him to Daniels in terms of composure under pressure, Daniels is undoubted superior, against tougher competition. Failure drives the greats to be better, it fuels them to improve. Failure angers them, but pushes them. With Mahomes, the one thing that sticks out is seeking solace in his mother's arms. I don't want to make too much of a deal of that, but it does raise a question to me about his EQ.
Think about Eli's composure in throughout his NFL career in big moments. I think about that 2011 season NFCCG against SF. To me that was Eli's greatest game of his career, because he was hit relentlessly and under intense pressure, and kept his composure and continued to execute and ultimately won that game.
Ernie Accorsi called it "the IT factor". I think what he was talking about is high EQ. Eli had that. The great ones combine high on-field and off-field IQ, EQ, and physical talent. I have zero doubts in Williams' physical talent. But that places in a distant third to the two former categories as predictors of future NFL success. And those categories are also the hardest to measure for any QB prospect. In a nutshell, this is why so many highly rated QB prospects don't pan out in the NFL, because so much weight is given to more definable measurables such as arm talent and athletic ability, when those things are nice to haves compared to a QB with high IQ and EQ. This is why a guy like Brock Purdy, who was not an impressive QB prospect when it came to physical and athletic makeup has had the success he has had. He has terrific IQ and EQ, that has manifested itself on the field. It's why Tom Brady was a 6th round draft pick that became the GOAT...it's his elite IQ and EQ.
With Williams, to me it seems that true believers like Producer take all of his physical ability and project him to be a superstar QB. Where my concerns are about maturity, on-field IQ and EQ. I'm not saying I'm right. As I said, these are the hardest attributes to quantify for prospects. But if I compare him to Daniels, I get a better comfort level in composure and maturity...signs that he is superior "between the ears", and this is to say nothing about how he compares to the other QB prospects in this draft.
Manhattan = Producer
Eric recently talked about the success of QB prospects being largely tied to what's between the ears. Any reasonable talent evaluator would have to agree. You can't measure this on highlight film. And you can have all the arm talent in the world and fail because of not having it where it counts.
And Williams DOES have all the arm talent in the world. He is an A+++ prospect based on arm talent alone. But arm talent by itself is perhaps the worst predictor of NFL success that there is.
There are two basic types of intelligence. There is IQ and EQ. I don't know enough about Williams to make a certain judgement on either. I don't think he's an unintelligent man in terms of IQ.
But I think EQ is so underrated in QB prospect evaluation. That position demands high EQ. I have questions here. How does a QB respond to failure? How is he as a leader of men? When the stakes are immense and dealing with intense stress (often in the physical form of pressure), can he stay composed and execute in an intense environment? Can you take accountability for your own mistakes and be humble when you cost your team, or will you deflect blame?
I would say I have serious doubts about Williams' EQ. Off the field, he seems to me to be self-absorbed in his own perceived greatness. He didn't deliver often in high-stress situations.
If you compare him to Daniels in terms of composure under pressure, Daniels is undoubted superior, against tougher competition. Failure drives the greats to be better, it fuels them to improve. Failure angers them, but pushes them. With Mahomes, the one thing that sticks out is seeking solace in his mother's arms. I don't want to make too much of a deal of that, but it does raise a question to me about his EQ.
Think about Eli's composure in throughout his NFL career in big moments. I think about that 2011 season NFCCG against SF. To me that was Eli's greatest game of his career, because he was hit relentlessly and under intense pressure, and kept his composure and continued to execute and ultimately won that game.
Ernie Accorsi called it "the IT factor". I think what he was talking about is high EQ. Eli had that. The great ones combine high on-field and off-field IQ, EQ, and physical talent. I have zero doubts in Williams' physical talent. But that places in a distant third to the two former categories as predictors of future NFL success. And those categories are also the hardest to measure for any QB prospect. In a nutshell, this is why so many highly rated QB prospects don't pan out in the NFL, because so much weight is given to more definable measurables such as arm talent and athletic ability, when those things are nice to haves compared to a QB with high IQ and EQ. This is why a guy like Brock Purdy, who was not an impressive QB prospect when it came to physical and athletic makeup has had the success he has had. He has terrific IQ and EQ, that has manifested itself on the field. It's why Tom Brady was a 6th round draft pick that became the GOAT...it's his elite IQ and EQ.
With Williams, to me it seems that true believers like Producer take all of his physical ability and project him to be a superstar QB. Where my concerns are about maturity, on-field IQ and EQ. I'm not saying I'm right. As I said, these are the hardest attributes to quantify for prospects. But if I compare him to Daniels, I get a better comfort level in composure and maturity...signs that he is superior "between the ears", and this is to say nothing about how he compares to the other QB prospects in this draft.
Good post
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About the big question mark with Williams.
Eric recently talked about the success of QB prospects being largely tied to what's between the ears. Any reasonable talent evaluator would have to agree. You can't measure this on highlight film. And you can have all the arm talent in the world and fail because of not having it where it counts.
And Williams DOES have all the arm talent in the world. He is an A+++ prospect based on arm talent alone. But arm talent by itself is perhaps the worst predictor of NFL success that there is.
There are two basic types of intelligence. There is IQ and EQ. I don't know enough about Williams to make a certain judgement on either. I don't think he's an unintelligent man in terms of IQ.
But I think EQ is so underrated in QB prospect evaluation. That position demands high EQ. I have questions here. How does a QB respond to failure? How is he as a leader of men? When the stakes are immense and dealing with intense stress (often in the physical form of pressure), can he stay composed and execute in an intense environment? Can you take accountability for your own mistakes and be humble when you cost your team, or will you deflect blame?
I would say I have serious doubts about Williams' EQ. Off the field, he seems to me to be self-absorbed in his own perceived greatness. He didn't deliver often in high-stress situations.
If you compare him to Daniels in terms of composure under pressure, Daniels is undoubted superior, against tougher competition. Failure drives the greats to be better, it fuels them to improve. Failure angers them, but pushes them. With Mahomes, the one thing that sticks out is seeking solace in his mother's arms. I don't want to make too much of a deal of that, but it does raise a question to me about his EQ.
Think about Eli's composure in throughout his NFL career in big moments. I think about that 2011 season NFCCG against SF. To me that was Eli's greatest game of his career, because he was hit relentlessly and under intense pressure, and kept his composure and continued to execute and ultimately won that game.
Ernie Accorsi called it "the IT factor". I think what he was talking about is high EQ. Eli had that. The great ones combine high on-field and off-field IQ, EQ, and physical talent. I have zero doubts in Williams' physical talent. But that places in a distant third to the two former categories as predictors of future NFL success. And those categories are also the hardest to measure for any QB prospect. In a nutshell, this is why so many highly rated QB prospects don't pan out in the NFL, because so much weight is given to more definable measurables such as arm talent and athletic ability, when those things are nice to haves compared to a QB with high IQ and EQ. This is why a guy like Brock Purdy, who was not an impressive QB prospect when it came to physical and athletic makeup has had the success he has had. He has terrific IQ and EQ, that has manifested itself on the field. It's why Tom Brady was a 6th round draft pick that became the GOAT...it's his elite IQ and EQ.
With Williams, to me it seems that true believers like Producer take all of his physical ability and project him to be a superstar QB. Where my concerns are about maturity, on-field IQ and EQ. I'm not saying I'm right. As I said, these are the hardest attributes to quantify for prospects. But if I compare him to Daniels, I get a better comfort level in composure and maturity...signs that he is superior "between the ears", and this is to say nothing about how he compares to the other QB prospects in this draft.
Good post
I concur with Sy, but would also add that with anything if you are trading talent for higher EQ the returns are not worth it. Some teams try to max it out, but my observation is that once a QB reaches a certain threshold then you just don’t get any incremental gain from going higher on that scale if talent is dropping off faster.
This bothered me too...I don't know if this is fair but my first thought when I saw that was that he knew the cameras would pick it up and it was a calculated move to keep the attention on him after he got outplayed by Penix, who was also a Heisman candidate and possible rival for elite NFL draft status.
I had similar skepticism about this:
It means emotional intelligence and is kind of a twist on IQ.
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what is EQ?
It means emotional intelligence and is kind of a twist on IQ.
So the modern way of saying calm under fire...doesn't get rattled.
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In comment 16404054 section125 said:
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what is EQ?
It means emotional intelligence and is kind of a twist on IQ.
So the modern way of saying calm under fire...doesn't get rattled.
It is more than that. If you read the post it also encompasses accountability and leadership traits, work ethic, etc. To put it another way, the tools do not matter if the players around you don’t want you to succeed or you don’t put in the effort needed to be an NFL QB. Aaron Rodgers can be a dick of a person, but those that get in his inner circle go all out for him. Contrast that to a Jeff George where his OL wanted him to get sacked hard.
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In comment 16404059 Heisenberg said:
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In comment 16404054 section125 said:
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what is EQ?
It means emotional intelligence and is kind of a twist on IQ.
So the modern way of saying calm under fire...doesn't get rattled.
It is more than that. If you read the post it also encompasses accountability and leadership traits, work ethic, etc. To put it another way, the tools do not matter if the players around you don’t want you to succeed or you don’t put in the effort needed to be an NFL QB. Aaron Rodgers can be a dick of a person, but those that get in his inner circle go all out for him. Contrast that to a Jeff George where his OL wanted him to get sacked hard.
Thanks Mike.
I do not know if this is an actual term(EQ) used in analysis of players by scouts as I do not remember seeing it before or if I did and I just glossed it over.
But seems like a fancy term for saying "it" factor.
But ok another mystery solved.
One thing on Williams - he is 21. Has his physical tools mostly in place, no doubt. His maturity level may just be lagging - happens often in men. Some people are leaders at an early age, others gain it with time, experience and confidence. Others never get it.
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In comment 16404061 section125 said:
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In comment 16404059 Heisenberg said:
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In comment 16404054 section125 said:
Quote:
what is EQ?
It means emotional intelligence and is kind of a twist on IQ.
So the modern way of saying calm under fire...doesn't get rattled.
It is more than that. If you read the post it also encompasses accountability and leadership traits, work ethic, etc. To put it another way, the tools do not matter if the players around you don’t want you to succeed or you don’t put in the effort needed to be an NFL QB. Aaron Rodgers can be a dick of a person, but those that get in his inner circle go all out for him. Contrast that to a Jeff George where his OL wanted him to get sacked hard.
Thanks Mike.
I do not know if this is an actual term(EQ) used in analysis of players by scouts as I do not remember seeing it before or if I did and I just glossed it over.
But seems like a fancy term for saying "it" factor.
But ok another mystery solved.
One thing on Williams - he is 21. Has his physical tools mostly in place, no doubt. His maturity level may just be lagging - happens often in men. Some people are leaders at an early age, others gain it with time, experience and confidence. Others never get it.
This is 100pct true. And the challenge is you can't gauge a kid's potential progression in terms of that. People like to point to Williams' meltdown on the sidelines as a negative. I get it, but it also shows that he gives a shit about winning, which should not be undervalued. We've all seen so many athletes that had lots of talent and didn't really give a shit about winning.
It's another reason why I have a soft spot for Penix Jr in this draft. If you compared him when he was first at Indiana and now at Washington at 23, he's been through a lot and shown a ton of perseverance and seems just mature in the way a person who has overcome adversity can be.
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...the one thing that sticks out is seeking solace in his mother's arms. I don't want to make too much of a deal of that, but it does raise a question to me about his EQ.
This bothered me too...I don't know if this is fair but my first thought when I saw that was that he knew the cameras would pick it up and it was a calculated move to keep the attention on him after he got outplayed by Penix, who was also a Heisman candidate and possible rival for elite NFL draft status.
I had similar skepticism about this:
Stunts like that are why I think Williams is likely not on the Giants board. Mara would never accept him as the face of the franchise.
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...the one thing that sticks out is seeking solace in his mother's arms. I don't want to make too much of a deal of that, but it does raise a question to me about his EQ.
This bothered me too...I don't know if this is fair but my first thought when I saw that was that he knew the cameras would pick it up and it was a calculated move to keep the attention on him after he got outplayed by Penix, who was also a Heisman candidate and possible rival for elite NFL draft status.
I had similar skepticism about this:
You're thinking that McCarthy's pregame ritual is more a calculated move than a real pregame routine? Or are there other issues you have with this?
Pardon my ignore here if you will, but is there any psychological evidence that a male, high profile collegiate athlete who seeks a mother's solace after a game is somehow more likely to have an EQ deficit?
I had similar skepticism about this:
McCarthy had depression issues in high school. So, he turned to meditation to manage it. I don't have a problem with that.
I don't like McCarthy as a lottery pick, but this isn't an issue with me.