| “You start your franchise with a quarterback. Your fans identify with your quarterback” - George Young |
In response to critics who said that Simms was a late first round pick, Young countered by saying he didn't have a late first round pick so what difference did it make? He needed to make the selection earlier. I love that. A first round QB is a first round QB. Draft the QB at 6 if you have the first round grade on him.
Video clip linked below. And I also agree with Young on this still today. You need a QB and a pass rush. The Giants have 4 lombardi trophies in the case thanks to that philosophy.
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Exactly.... Did you compare Eli Manning to YA Tittle? Hakeem Nicks to Frank Gifford?
Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
Yes, they could have picked OJ Anderson at #7 and draft Montana at a round past the first.
And BTW, Bill Walsh not only wanted Simms, but told him that he would make him a Hall of Fame quarterback.
You start with the QB. If they know in their hearts, they can't win with Jones, then they HAVE to draft a QB.
Well, to state the obvious: No they don't. They don't have to. I mean, what if they didn't? Would they cancel the season? Fold the franchise? No.
What if they don't like this year's QB class as much as the draftniks do?
George Young really liked Simms. In that pre-world-wide-web era, the fans didn't know about him, but other teams did. The liked him enough to make him the face of the franchise. That worked out with Simms. It didn't work with Dave Brown. It worked with Eli. So far, it hasn't worked with DJ, not really.
Eventually you have to get your guy, but if you don't think your guy is there, you don't have to take a guy you don't really believe in.
Simms was great but when I think of Young it is first about a devastating front 7. Then a high quality OL, outstanding running game and enough big play at the QB position. Perfect QB for the team. With the perfect HC.
I have missed a lot of the George Young values for over a decade.
Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
Bill Walsh wanted Simms, Montana fell in his lap.
That seasoning used to be the rule and why would it not apply today?
We really should think about extending Daniel Jones another 4 or 5 years if we want to get the most out of him.
Phil Simms was a very fine QB who had a fantastic Super Bowl.
But he was no superstar.
He was a system QB who was blessed with a take-no-prisoners defense and a very strong, dedicated run game.
But his game was not that large when he had to throw off-schedule, had to move laterally or faced a pass rush.
And speaking of pass rush. There was absolutely zero, nada, nothing against Denver when he won the Super Bowl MVP. That is not a criticism. It is just a fact. His pocket that day fortress-like.
And one last point. After Phil Simms’ first 5 seasons with the Giants (1979-1983), fans wanted him gone. As in don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
I will go so far as to say Simms was a better passer than Montana. Joe was a very accurate passer and could not be fooled by a defense, he was a great technician, but Simms had the stronger arm and was nearly as accurate. Had he not been robbed by injury and an inexplicable decision by Parcells to start Brunner that one season, he'd be in the conversation for the Hall.
The fans today would have had him cut after year 2.
Btw, Simmis was drafted in 1979. Parcells benched him for Brunner in 1983. It wasn't until 1984 that he threw for over 4,000 yards and became the Phil Simms that we all know and love. Eli was drafted in 2004 and there are probably still a lot of posters on this site who wanted him gone in 2005, 2006, and even during the 2007 season before he became the Eli we know and love. I sure as hell don't know if Jones gets one more shot, and if he does, if he's capable of confounding what has become the conventional wisdom. All I know is that it's happened before.
The NFCE and the NFC as a whole had so much talent back then in the 1980s so it was incredibly difficult to navigate through to get to a Super Bowl. But Simms was pretty damn credible in making the Giants a tough out for a good part of that decade.
Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
I believe Walsh has said he was going to draft Phil if he had been available
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Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
I believe Walsh has said he was going to draft Phil if he had been available
According to Simms, Walsh told him before the draft that San Francisco would draft him with the first pick in the second round. When Simms told Walsh he didn’t think he’d still be available, Walsh told him that they had checked around and were pretty sure no one was taking him in the first round.
When he was on the field during those first few years, Simms was terrific. Live arm, accurate, and a fine leader. But he was hurt a lot and that set back his development. Eric might have been patient but most posters on the Corner Forum wouldn’t have been.
I liked watching Simms. He had “it,” whatever it is. He made more of a difference when he got on the field than any Giants QB I have seen since. But that was because he was elevating a bad team in the early years.
I did and he was a bust for quite a while. But he did have lousy WRs as Parcells wanted to run the ball as much as possible.
FWIW, my best friend and I called Simms "The effing Albino."
For comparison sake, Jones is going into his SIXTH NFL season & hasn't even sniffed a Pro Bowl, much less even given people thoughts of a Super Bowl MVP.
For every Geno Smith, there are 10 Daniel Jones who show you what they are & never have a late career renaissance.
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Is that a large majority of this BBI would have been screaming that Simms was a bust during his first few seasons
I did and he was a bust for quite a while. But he did have lousy WRs as Parcells wanted to run the ball as much as possible.
FWIW, my best friend and I called Simms "The effing Albino."
You can get away with that when you have a world-class defense.
Btw, Simmis was drafted in 1979. Parcells benched him for Brunner in 1983. It wasn't until 1984 that he threw for over 4,000 yards and became the Phil Simms that we all know and love. Eli was drafted in 2004 and there are probably still a lot of posters on this site who wanted him gone in 2005, 2006, and even during the 2007 season before he became the Eli we know and love. I sure as hell don't know if Jones gets one more shot, and if he does, if he's capable of confounding what has become the conventional wisdom. All I know is that it's happened before.
Great post!
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Phil Simms was a very fine QB who had a fantastic Super Bowl.
But he was no superstar.
He was a system QB who was blessed with a take-no-prisoners defense and a very strong, dedicated run game.
But his game was not that large when he had to throw off-schedule, had to move laterally or faced a pass rush.
And speaking of pass rush. There was absolutely zero, nada, nothing against Denver when he won the Super Bowl MVP. That is not a criticism. It is just a fact. His pocket that day fortress-like.
And one last point. After Phil Simms’ first 5 seasons with the Giants (1979-1983), fans wanted him gone. As in don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
Bullshit, and most fans don't know their asses from a two bas hit. Simms was a great passer. In 1984 he threw for 4000 yards (in an era where 4000 yards was a rarely done) when the Giants didn't have a running threat. He was perfectly capable of throwing for big games when the team needed it (as he demonstrated in the SB). You went to sleep on the Giants passing game at your peril.
I will go so far as to say Simms was a better passer than Montana. Joe was a very accurate passer and could not be fooled by a defense, he was a great technician, but Simms had the stronger arm and was nearly as accurate. Had he not been robbed by injury and an inexplicable decision by Parcells to start Brunner that one season, he'd be in the conversation for the Hall.
And don't forget getting screwed over by Ray Handley starting Hostetler and George Young cutting him to start Dave Brown. Phil threw for 515 yards in a loss to Cincinnati which I believe was the 3rd highest total in the NFL at the time. Phil could chuck it, but was held back by the system. I personally know many fans of other teams who think Simms is a HOFer
For comparison sake, Jones is going into his SIXTH NFL season & hasn't even sniffed a Pro Bowl, much less even given people thoughts of a Super Bowl MVP.
For every Geno Smith, there are 10 Daniel Jones who show you what they are & never have a late career renaissance.
1984 was Phil Simms' SIXTH season.
The sin is not drafting a bust at QB. The sin is sticking with him after he's proven a bust. The Giants may trade up to #1 and draft Drake Maye...that's not a guarantee he will succeed. Even if the Giants do what we all want them to do, that doesn't mean the new QB should have the job bequeathed to him for 3+ years. THAT is the lesson of the Daniel Jones disaster.
If the Giants like one of the so-called Day 2 guys and draft him at 6, I'm all for it. Draft him, start him, and let him sink or swim. If after 2 years you're not sure (like Houston is sure with Stroud) he's the guy, be open to options if they become available.
That is the way to approach the QB position in 2024, in this CBA.
+1. The longer you try to stick a square peg into a round hole, the worse it gets. It you screw up, own it and move on.
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We're doing this again? 2024 NFL is a helluva lot different than '84 NFL. Simms burst out for good in '84, his fifth season. He then followed it up with a Pro Bowl '85 campaign & a Super Bowl MVP '86 season.
For comparison sake, Jones is going into his SIXTH NFL season & hasn't even sniffed a Pro Bowl, much less even given people thoughts of a Super Bowl MVP.
For every Geno Smith, there are 10 Daniel Jones who show you what they are & never have a late career renaissance.
1984 was Phil Simms' SIXTH season.
And he was benched in his 5th season.
The article is from 83' Simms was asking to be traded and super frustrated
Simms breaks his thumb - ( New Window )
Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
Well, Bill Walsh wanted Simms, not Montana.
And what weapons did Hostetler have at wide receiver in the Super Bowl?
Mark Ingram and Stephen Baker.
They gave up 30 sacks in the six games in which Jones played, an average of 5 per game.
And they gave up an average of 5 sacks per game in the eleven games in which he did not play.
The other quarterbacks had the benefit of Barkley and turnovers.
Anybody who thinks that needs to go back and watch the Giants-Eagles games of that era. The Eagles with Reggie White, Jerome Brown, Clyde Simmons, etc. Brutal front 4 to play against and Reggie White I would probably put 2nd to LT as far as the best defensive players I ever saw. Bull rushing tackles and lifting them off the ground with one arm.
You've got to keep swinging until you hit. Sticking with a forked Eli and then bequeathing his job to Daniel Jones is how you end up with nearly a decade of some of the worst QB play in the league.
I know BW was very high on Lamar Jackson
The lesson is to try to upgrade QB whenever you can, even if you have an entrenched "franchise" qb. The exception of having a HOF QB in the prime of his career. The Packers replaced Favre with Rodgers and Rodgers with Love when they each technically had something left in the tank. Alex Smith, not a hof qb, was having a great run with the chiefs when Reid drafted Mahommes. Unless you have an all time great in their prime you can't sit on your hands. I cannot believe some feel that having Jones prevents us from drafting a QB.
And what weapons did Hostetler have at wide receiver in the Super Bowl?
Mark Ingram and Stephen Baker.
Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
ask the 28 teams who passed 3 times. And Bill Walsh would have taken Simms but didn't have a 1st round pick nor any other draft capital since SF wasted it on OJ Simpson before he got there. He was going to take Simms with he first pick in Rd 2 if he was there.
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and ran the table. Including the memorable Conference title game and Super Bowl.
And what weapons did Hostetler have at wide receiver in the Super Bowl?
Mark Ingram and Stephen Baker.
Hostetler was not nearly the threat as a passer Simms was. Simms to this day gets no respect.
Thank you. Hostetler was a good QB. But he thought he was John Elway. Always whining. Always somebody else's fault he couldn't win the job. Couldn't beat out Todd Blackledge? Blame Paterno. Couldn't beat Simms? Blame Parcells. To the point that he and his asshole agent let it be known publicly that they popped open Champagne when Parcells quit. Only Handley was stupid enough to play him over Simms. The one thing Reeves got right was naming Simms his QB and trading Hostetler.
Thank you, sir. Btw, a few more names in the interregnum between Tittle and Simms: Glynn Griffing, Gary Lane, Dick Shiner, Henry Schichtle, Lee Grosscup, Carl Summerell, and a special mention for poor Tom Kennedy, a semi-pro player the Giants had to sign and play against the Rams.
And what weapons did Hostetler have at wide receiver in the Super Bowl?
Mark Ingram and Stephen Baker.
Baker caught a TD pass and Ingram made that incredible play to get a first down that kept a drive alive and helped win the game. If you're trying to imply that Hoss was a better QB than Simms, cannot agree.
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Is that a large majority of this BBI would have been screaming that Simms was a bust during his first few seasons
We would have been reading a lot of “china doll” posts.
When he was on the field during those first few years, Simms was terrific. Live arm, accurate, and a fine leader. But he was hurt a lot and that set back his development. Eric might have been patient but most posters on the Corner Forum wouldn’t have been.
I liked watching Simms. He had “it,” whatever it is. He made more of a difference when he got on the field than any Giants QB I have seen since. But that was because he was elevating a bad team in the early years.
Wellington Mara said the primary reason he made what turned out to be those disastrous trades for Tarkenton and then Morton was that he didn't think fans and media had the patience to stay the course while a rookie QB developed. The experience with Simms and Manning proved him right.
If this is an attempt to compare Simms to Jones, let me repeat the point I've made elsewhere:
Simms, entering his 6th season: 34 career starts
Jones, entering his 6th season: 61 career starts
We have almost twice as much sample size with Jones to tell us he isn't it.
You've got to keep swinging until you hit. Sticking with a forked Eli and then bequeathing his job to Daniel Jones is how you end up with nearly a decade of some of the worst QB play in the league.
Exactly. To build on this-
The Pats drafted Brady in round 6 just a month after handing Drew Bledsoe the first ever 100 mil deal. It’s clear from Pats doc that they believed Bledsoe was a true generational franchise QB.
The 49ers drafted Purdy when they had a QB they traded up for with multiple picks and a guy who had already taken them to a SB and multiple playoffs
The Seahawks drafted Russell Wilson even though they had just signed Matt Flynn to a relatively big FA contract (people thought he was gonna be good after a 480 yd 6 TD game for GB)
The Eagles drafted Hurts after just one year into Carson Wentz 120 mil deal. they also brought back Foles who had been very successful for them after Wentz big rookie season.
There a ton of more examples but the idea is keep taking QBs and developing competition and options and seeing what you have. You don’t just “believe” in your QB and avoid bringing in anyone to challenge and put all eggs 1 basket.
The Giants haven’t spent a single draft pick on QB since drafting Daniel Jones.
Phil Simms was a very fine QB who had a fantastic Super Bowl.
And one last point. After Phil Simms’ first 5 seasons with the Giants (1979-1983), fans wanted him gone. As in don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
Simms was a fine QB as you say. Nuff said about that.
Secondly, - there were a lot of stupid Giants fans that wnated Simms dumped. Them being stupid - just becuase there were a lot- doesn't mean they were right.
Bill Parells biggest blunder was starting Brunner over Simms. Whathahpeend was that the Giangs got a real RB that was able ot work himself into a flow - but by that time Simms was gone with injury so it appeared Brunner was better. Brunner had the luxury of an eeite running game in which Carpenter caught the league by suprise. Beofre Carpenter- the Ginats RB's during Simms time sucked.
Simms neeeded a decent running game - not elite. That's all it took aad he flourished.
Of having Ray Perkins as his coach. Perkins would not allow him to throw the ball away, under any circumstances. Couple that with lousy offensive lines, he was doomed.
I saw him here against the Rams in '79, he was amazing. By the time he won the Super Bowl in '86, he was a shell of himself, with all the beatings he had endured.